Advent Talk
Theology Category => Doctrinal Discussions => Topic started by: reddogs on September 20, 2008, 02:40:24 AM
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Can we hate the sin and still love the sinner?
I always thought this was simple for every Christian, to "hate the sin but still love the sinner". Many of my friends, classmates, and even family, got involved in paths that led to sin including what for many in South Florida is a age old profession, smuggling.
They got into the drug smuggling, transportation and drug use. We had one of our classmates that was incapacitated by drug use just before our graduation and we refused to let him be left behind, and forced school administration to let him graduate with the rest of his class. We always felt that right or wrong, we would stick throught thick or thin and love our 'brother' no matter what 'sin' he had done, as some of us had been together since our first day of school....
Thus as I came across other individuals that had fallen into the domain of vice and sin, I applied the same principle of "hating the sin but still love the sinner", but sometimes its not that easy. When they steal and it affects you directly, or from the affects of who knows what damage your car, or commit adultery, is it still easy to love them........
What are your thoughts?
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Can we hate the sin and still love the sinner?
I always thought this was simple for every Christian, to "hate the sin but still love the sinner". Many of my friends, classmates, and even family, got involved in paths that led to sin including what for many in South Florida is a age old profession, smuggling.
They got into the drug smuggling, transportation and drug use. We had one of our classmates that was incapacitated by drug use just before our graduation and we refused to let him be left behind, and forced school administration to let him graduate with the rest of his class. We always felt that right or wrong, we would stick throught thick or thin and love our 'brother' no matter what 'sin' he had done, as some of us had been together since our first day of school....
Thus as I came across other individuals that had fallen into the domain of vice and sin, I applied the same principle of "hating the sin but still love the sinner", but sometimes its not that easy. When they steal and it affects you directly, or from the affects of who knows what damage your car, or commit adultery, is it still easy to love them........
What are your thoughts?
No, Reddog:
It certainly is not easy, :rabbit: but it is required if we want to be an influence for good in that persons life :console: . . . . or if we want to be an example of the Father's Love to those around us :help:. We must even be willing to suffer hurt to our disadvantage if I read scripture correctly. :hot: :hot: :praying: :praying: :praying:
Yup, I'm still on the wheel here too! :hamster: :hot: :hot: :praying:
But Father God is working with me and loves me far beyond what I am worth to myself and maybe even others because of what His Son paid for me at Calvary! :console: :amen:
:TY: Father God for Your Son, Jesus and His willigness to sacrifice His life for me because He loved me. :praying:
GrammieT :dogwag:
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Can we hate the sin and still love the sinner?
I always thought this was simple for every Christian, to "hate the sin but still love the sinner". Many of my friends, classmates, and even family, got involved in paths that led to sin including what for many in South Florida is a age old profession, smuggling.
They got into the drug smuggling, transportation and drug use. We had one of our classmates that was incapacitated by drug use just before our graduation and we refused to let him be left behind, and forced school administration to let him graduate with the rest of his class. We always felt that right or wrong, we would stick throught thick or thin and love our 'brother' no matter what 'sin' he had done, as some of us had been together since our first day of school....
Thus as I came across other individuals that had fallen into the domain of vice and sin, I applied the same principle of "hating the sin but still love the sinner", but sometimes its not that easy. When they steal and it affects you directly, or from the affects of who knows what damage your car, or commit adultery, is it still easy to love them........
What are your thoughts?
Will you still bail out your friend after he has mis-used your friendship uncountable times?
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[quote
Will you still bail out your friend after he has mis-used your friendship uncountable times?
[/quote]
Is it a sign of not loving someone if you do not bail them out of trouble after repeated times you have bailed them out?
Maybe loving them is allowing them the consequences of their actions while you still be friend and stand by them.
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All great posts thus far. I am with Bonnie, though, tough love comes in with the repeat offenders. You can still love them, but you cannot become codependent. More often than not, they need to hit rock bottom and fully feel the consequences for the actions. Nothing says you cant' love them trough it. Perhaps visiting or writing them in prison/jail, encouraging them along the way. God let David fell the full brunt of his actions, but never stopped loving him, did he not?
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duplicate
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Will you still bail out your friend after he has mis-used your friendship uncountable times?
Is it a sign of not loving someone if you do not bail them out of trouble after repeated times you have bailed them out?
Maybe loving them is allowing them the consequences of their actions while you still be friend and stand by them.
Bailing out those that are friends/family is not necessarily love. Maybe the greatest sign of love is not bailing someone out.Maybe that is no love at all
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Will we ever be finished with that question?
Can we hate the sin and still love the sinner?
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When they steal and it affects you directly, or from the affects of who knows what damage your car, or commit adultery, is it still easy to love them........
What are your thoughts?
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Probably not as long as we see those we don't like as personified sin.
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Of course we can hate the sin and love the sinner. It can be hard to seperate the two in your mind sometimes, but you have to remember that is your weakness not theirs. God tells us to love everyone. Any sort of judgement of someones character is a sin.
You speak of tough love but remember that it is not your job to judge someone and make decisions for their life. It is God's decision. It is extremely easy for Christians to think they are good people, but they are wrong. They are no better than the worst sinner. Our actions may be pure and others may be sinful but God loves us both the same, the exact same. God loves you only as much as he loved Adolf Hitler, and he created you the same as he created Hitler. The biggest sin of all (and easiest to commit) is judgment, that is a sin only God is allowed to commit.
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Abrasax,
I agree wholehartedly with your first paragraph.
However, the second..........I believe the question was about bailing someon out of trouble as they continue to misuse you. God does not require that we submit ourselves to be mistreated or become codependent. You know when someone has mistreated you. Now you can forgive them, but that doesn't require you again placing yourself in their line of fire. It's like continuing to give money or allowing a drug addicted loved one to stay in your home when they continue to buy drug with the money and steal your things to finance their drug habit. You can forigve them for stealing , but they don't get to stay in your home.......without some serious drug rehaban lifestyle changes.
Of course we can hate the sin and love the sinner. It can be hard to seperate the two in your mind sometimes, but you have to remember that is your weakness not theirs. God tells us to love everyone. Any sort of judgement of someones character is a sin.
You speak of tough love but remember that it is not your job to judge someone and make decisions for their life. It is God's decision. It is extremely easy for Christians to think they are good people, but they are wrong. They are no better than the worst sinner. Our actions may be pure and others may be sinful but God loves us both the same, the exact same. God loves you only as much as he loved Adolf Hitler, and he created you the same as he created Hitler. The biggest sin of all (and easiest to commit) is judgment, that is a sin only God is allowed to commit.
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This question has been discussed before. . .
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More often than not, the sin is the justification to hate the person that would be hated anyway.
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More often than not, the sin is the justification to hate the person that would be hated anyway.
The problem is to get rid of that feeling
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Hmmm,
Do we all love Judas? Do we love the crucifiers? At one point as EGW talks of Satan wanting to be reinstated it almost gave a sympathy feeling of one of God's lost creations. We are not capable of the extent of God's love because we are not all knowing as He is especially when he rejected Satan's plea. We can only use "human love as we know it".
We all know love as something very powerful and undying and also many times love is very hurtful for some lives and causes distruction when some think love is possession. I might be wrong but somehow I thought Love your "brother in Christ", do unto your neighbor has you would have them do unto you. Avoid all appearance of evil and if this is not true then why all the council on choices of friends, husbands and wives and mingling with evil. Then there is council to go out and preach the word to a dying world.
You want to do that with all your heart because of love for people and love for God's creations and hate that thousand will perish if they don't heed and come to your loving savior too but you cannot force so "love hurts". But only God can judge and know all and we have been given the ability to discern and without we are lost too if we constantly are within the gates of evil doers, sympathizers, and if this isn't right then why all the complaint of the actions of 3abn as they all follow the piper.
Now repentance brings them back into the fold of "loving" your brother and you have thus the feeling of melting heart.
No, I do not love the evil that possess evil ones. But the great thing of repentance "melts your heart back to love" for the those. If this is not true then why does this "melting of heart actually happen?" The evil choose to be evil. and...if I know it, I will shun it after you did all you could. The great feeling of love does give you an excruciating sick feeling for the lost as you know beyond doubt that God's feeling of lost is "hurtful beyond our knowing" to Him too.
Did TS family do what all was right to help....no they did not and now have the stigma of it all! Instead --they joined it, covered it, and now the price for all their choices was more victims, more distruction and their "selfish display" will still bring more to come into view. Therefore my question "What magnet brings in now Yvonne? What misconception of love does the Shelton clan have???
Does our church mingle to "use the assets of 3abn" knowing all that has transpired? Yes, it is beyond scary to me and totally feeling of overwhelmed with it all. But God knows and that is who I trust but I no longer feed the hay to the :horse: that deposits back to the ground. or......does the church pick up the "manure" and "use to fertilize the fields" Very mixed emotions for me! I don't like guessing games or confusion that I have to take extra effort to discern what I believe in. I hate the devil that creates this confusion. Is this one of the downfalls that EGW saw in vision and tears rolled down her cheeks. My exact sediments of where we are at now??? I never had time when I felt so much had to be done to help on the side of God for game playing and self indulged, luxury and expensive entertainment when special moments of peace and quite rest in Jesus is sufficient and most "thrilling". Too many will be lost!
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http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2825095663035&set=a.2825095503031.2152047.1128301813&type=1
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Jeremiah 2:22
New International Version (NIV)
22 Although you wash yourself with soap
and use an abundance of cleansing powder,
the stain of your guilt is still before me,”
declares the Sovereign LORD.
Jeremiah 2:22
King James Version (KJV)
22For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
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To directly answer the OP. That is supposed to be how it works. It is what God did/does for us. "....in that while we were yet sinners........, right? He sent His Son to die befor all of us here had yet to be born and then to sin. So, His example is that we love the sinner UNCONDITIONALLY, and hate the sin. For me after this, the discussion is over.
Ok so I looked back and I had already posted int his thread.....several times.......getting old for sure.......Just to let you know that I said previousy stands, Hasting th sin and loving the sinner does not include being abused by the perosn who chooses to sin over and over again. That is not a christian, that is a door mat, codependent, and extremely unhealthy unhealthy.
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To directly answer the OP. That is supposed to be how it works. It is what God did/does for us. "....in that while we were yet sinners........, right? He sent His Son to die befor all of us here had yet to be born and then to sin. So, His example is that we love the sinner UNCONDITIONALLY, and hate the sin. For me after this, the discussion is over.
Ok so I looked back and I had already posted int his thread.....several times.......getting old for sure.......Just to let you know that I said previousy stands, Hasting th sin and loving the sinner does not include being abused by the perosn who chooses to sin over and over again. That is not a christian, that is a door mat, codependent, and extremely unhealthy unhealthy.
Hello princess. -----We absolutely cannot love the sinner while hating the sin. The sinner and the sin are both the same thing. The sin is simply an extention of the sinner. Only when the sinner stops sinning can we love them. Here is an example: A man is rapping my wife, can I say man I love you but I hate the thing you are doing, absolutely not. Rather I will take a gun and shoot him and chop him into a thousand pieces and scatter his ashes on the fatherest places of the earth. Can I separate the monster from the monster? absolutely not. Sin and sinner are synonymous with each other I can no more separate them than separate the head of a man from his body. In order to love the sinner he must stop sinning and if he does not stop then the transformation is complete and I will hate the sinner along with his inners which is the sin.
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....and for give us our debts as we forgive our debtors..........I know you thought that i would not have a response for that..........LOL!!! If Christ is our example we HAVE to love the sinner and hate the sin.
Now, there is also another part to this and that is forgiveness. We have mistakenly thought that to forgive ALWAYS means to restore. As in the example of the rape, restoration of a realtioship is not always wise.
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....and for give us our debts as we forgive our debtors..........I know you thought that i would not have a response for that..........LOL!!! If Christ is our example we HAVE to love the sinner and hate the sin.
Now, there is also another part to this and that is forgiveness. We have mistakenly thought that to forgive ALWAYS means to restore. As in the example of the rape, restoration of a realtioship is not always wise.
I never said I cannot forgive them it is just that I still hate them. Whoever said you cannot forgive someone and still hate them? In the end of time we will be left to our sin and eventually God will not save us. In otherwords there is a limit to the forbearance of God and humankind too. God would say Esau have I hated. In otherwords when passing the forbearance of grace the individual becomes the very essence of sin. You see in order to have sin you must have the action and the trigger to that action is the individual. Sin is a combination of person plus action or physical thought of action, equal sin. For instance if we say thou shalt not commit adultery the words mean nothing, they in and of themselves are not sin. In order for there to be sin you must have a sinner, thus making the sinner part and parcial of the sin itself. Thus we must conclude that we cannot love the sinner and hate sin for they are one in the same.
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Christian, you could be right about this, but everyone who I love is a sinner. There is not one person who I love who doesn't sin. If we are supposed to hate sinners because of their sins, then I can't expect to be loved, and I shouldn't love anyone. In fact, love should not exist in relation to humans at all. Yet, I can't help but love. I'll tell you right up front that I sin and I am a sinner, so I suppose you hate me. And since you, as a human, are a sinner, I guess I am obligated to hate you, but I don't. Lol.
Btw, here is a quote that makes me question the premise that we are to hate sinners.
Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
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Christian, you could be right about this, but everyone who I love is a sinner. There is not one person who I love who doesn't sin. If we are supposed to hate sinners because of their sins, then I can't expect to be loved, and I shouldn't love anyone. In fact, love should not exist in relation to humans at all. Yet, I can't help but love. I'll tell you right up front that I sin and I am a sinner, so I suppose you hate me. And since you, as a human, are a sinner, I guess I am obligated to hate you, but I don't. Lol.
Btw, here is a quote that makes me question the premise that we are to hate sinners.
Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Good point Murc. I can remember the old soul song sang many years ago, FIRST YOU LOVE ME THEN YOU HATE ME THATS A GAME FOR FOOL. The song was meant to stress the absolute ups and downs of relationships. However, we are talking about someone we know is actually trespassing against us, can we love them? I also differentiate between like and love. Liking someone is a far cry from actually loving someone. Which brings me to another thought, I have a lot of people that really like me but can think of very few that come close to what I would call love. LOL, I guess they are having a hard time separating the sin from the sinner. "But GOD shows his love for us in that while we are still sinners, Christ died for us." I have no problem with the fact that God loves us even though we are sinners. My problem is with the people who say they love me or humanity and really don't.
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Christian, if Christ is our example, we cannot hate the sinner. God did all He did after man sinned. he could hav destroyed us and started all over until someone finally made the right decision, but He didn't. instead he found a way of escape for us from sin, His beloved children. i with Murcielago, everyon eI love is a sinner. woule you hate your own child? Mother? Father? Sibling?
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Christian, if Christ is our example, we cannot hate the sinner. God did all He did after man sinned. he could hav destroyed us and started all over until someone finally made the right decision, but He didn't. instead he found a way of escape for us from sin, His beloved children. i with Murcielago, everyon eI love is a sinner. woule you hate your own child? Mother? Father? Sibling?
You remind me of my sins!!! I am getting far behind in wishing friends a Happy Birthday!
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Christian, if Christ is our example, we cannot hate the sinner. God did all He did after man sinned. he could hav destroyed us and started all over until someone finally made the right decision, but He didn't. instead he found a way of escape for us from sin, His beloved children. i with Murcielago, everyon eI love is a sinner. woule you hate your own child? Mother? Father? Sibling?
Would you hate you own child, Hmmm let me think about that one for a moment. Would you hate your Mother, Father, Sibling? Hmmm let me think real hard about that one and I will let you know. Anyway, you ask the wrong question, I am talking about really loving someone. I really think the word love is taken way, way out of proportion. I personally don't think most of us really know what love is. As I get older I realize that most of us do not know true love or how to express love. We have a strong like for people and most of that is attached to how much can we gain from our association with the individual. But let someone become sick for some time and we quickly see that we never really love that person. Or let someone who was well off become poor and watch the utter disregard of that person. We as Christian don't seem to understand the difference between the word of God and the Love of God. We talk love and quote the bible but when the true metal of love is needed it is very, very rarely found. By in large our supposed love is very conditional and is only what I would call the human love but definitely not the Godly love.
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Well, Christian, maybe it's because I have experienced many blessings sent by God through people around me, friends, family. So while I so see what you are talking about, I chose to view the other side. you see, It started with my parents who were foster parents who fostered so many children, i can't even count. They also adopted. It extends to my extended family who accepts children, fostered, adopted, step as their own and all of those labels are dropped....not only for the time they are with us, but should they be disconnected from our family, forever. That extends to extraordinary friends who have blessed me and my family with great kindness and generosity. now, I have tried to pay forward as much as I can. My sister and I were foster parents to two wonderful girls for six years until they were able to go home to their family. I haven't even mentioned my church family...........as i said, I choose to focus on the other side of the coin.