Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Wordkeeper on October 22, 2009, 09:21:12 AM
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On this 165th anniversary of when Jesus entered the Most Holy Place, we are wanting to let every Seventh-day Adventist in the world know about a much neglected message from God. God desires His remnant to be clothed in heavenly raiment. Our outward dress is to reflect His purity in our hearts. For too long, God's inspired counsels have been hidden from His church. Jesus is coming soon! It's time to give the straight testimony! We can't hold back for fear of the people rising up against it!
Thank you so much! Have a blessed day,
Linda
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Edited by Artiste to remove inappropriate content.
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Well, Linda, this is a different and fresh approach. I believe that our teachings can remain the same, but also change to meet the current issues. I must also say that when I visited your website, the outfit pictured there was quite attractive, and I am actually on the opposite end of the belief spectrum.
I also agree that for the most part our outward appearance "can" be an indicator of what is going on inside. I believe that it is only through a love relationship with God that things like dress change to also be a witness for Christ. I believe your approach is different in that it does stress the inward change first, IOW, that relationship with God on the inside being relfecged in our outward appearance.
Where we differ is how much importance we should really put in clothes/accessiories. I have seen SDAs who have never worn a piece of jewelry in their miserable Adventist lives...and it shows........I have also seen some Baptist, Methodist, etc. with jewelry who have glowed with the Light of Jesus..........accessories included. No, I was not distracted by their jewelry/dress, as that has nothing to do with the person, but a personal failing on my part to allow satan to so ealisy distract me that I miss a potential blessing to share and witness with another sister in Christ.
The Bible talks about how "man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looking on the heart". I am almost positive that man looking on the outward appearance was a positive thing. However, it is something we can control, or perceive that we can control in others(with great success in far too many instances), therefore leading to conformity, instead of realtionship. Or as you put it on your website, not putting first things first, by first changing the inside.
The thing we often miss is that we cannot hide the Light the Jesus if He is truly in our hearts. We do not have the power to distinguish the Ultimately Source of Light. Concentrating on other's outward appearance is a human failing and shows a need to be part of a group, making sure that everyone is doing the same as we are doing....belonging. If we are all changing inwardly, ther will be no comformity in the outward appearance as God will bring us all along in His own time, and not as a group.
I thank God for your honest and earnest search for God's truth. I will continue to pray for you along your journey to truly see God's Children(His daughters in particular) as he sees them, and ask that you do the same for me.
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hello Linda,
I was glad to see your post. It appears that time has rubbed away at an important issue. I just watched Hope channel last evening and was really disappointed at seeing a young teenage group singing the "witness song". They did it just wonderful but my thoughts were on their sloppy dress of jeans (boys and girls) and sloppy black shirts. All looked the same and I thought this is going all over the world with their disrespect of dress and how we are told to present ourselves. What happened to the appearance of difference between genders? They could not even fix their hair in neat appearance. Have you ever watched the Catholics & Mormans? There apparences would never be allowed to present themselves in that manner and the reverance is quite demanded. They are more respectful then the lazy Adventist to do something like that. That is one thing i am starting to see on Hope and I am not impressed when we have the rightful message. What are they thinking. Super laxiness???
Also I am probably one of the weird SDA's that does not wear the jewelry. It is not because I think it is not pretty, but because God commanded that his people would not wear it from the time he commanded. It is all because of vanity. Tell me one instant that it is not. For that reason I obey it. The truth is I think it is beautiful and it was God's gifts...in the beginning. But it changed and therefore I go along with scripture and EGW telling that we do not know ourselves as intimate as God does. EGW said that not one circle of gold should a penny be wasted on. It finally even changed in the church manuel to permit the wearing of a wedding ring for what ever reason they can come up with. Here is the point. I do not need a circle of gold to prove I am married. In my day I have had plenty of whistles and still some think I am much younger then I am and it is quite funny to me when shopping and it still sort of happens. It is how you conduct yourself when you are loyal to the one you have and love and cherish. There is no problem or can I find a reason to wear it. I only have eyes for just one. It is sure vanity and no other reason.
Yes, many on the gaithers sing with inspiration that is just so real and that is because they are charasmatic and perform on emotion. Religion is not emotion and therfore Adventists should not try to copy the gaithers lack of real religion. Maybe some will never come to realize the vanity of self and will be the one thing that keeps them from the gates. After all where does vanity come from?? Yep, jewelry is beautiful and I admit I like it but will wait until the Lord restores the gems when it is time. We just make our own justifications for what we mostly have laid aside in dress and jewels. Yes, I agree Christian dress it most beautiful to see as one has no questions of honest character within, that now is hard to find. I saw on Hope channel the copycat performance where a strapless dress was visible. Don't tell me we should except that when Gaithers are very modest in their dress. Shear "Vanity" and no way out of this one.....
Simplicity is beauty in dress and health.
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You are correct, Tinka, Religion is not emotional. Religion is just the practice of something, not always religious, out of habit. There is no real emotional attachment to it, it is just what we are used to doing. This is also conformity which is generally comsumed with making sure that others are "practiing religioin". However, a relationship with Christ requires all from us including our emotions. They are a part of our will that we are to submit back to Him, not to extinguish, but also to use in His service. God created them within us, so they do have a place in our relationship and service to Him.
And I know you are not hatin'(speaking against) the Gaithers! LOL!!!! Seriously though, they have written some of the most beautiful songs of praise, worship and faith that we all sing. What first drew me to watching them was the beatiful way they sang those old hymns.....and that big hair(sorry retired hairstylist. Just oculd not help myself LOL!).
Also, I might be careful about judging another's relationship with Christ. We lack the information and authority to do so.
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We also have a head and brain that was created to discern, learn, train and discipline to the best of our ability given by God that we not be deceived.
If we cannot know or learn how to discern--we are deceived.
DS does not have good actions or appearances on the extravaganza and marriage and sexual scene.
I really don't judge people's religion as I cannot tell what is in their hearts, some can be very outwardly sincere, but after the show it is a whole different game, but in most cases it is discerned by outward appearances and actions. and that probably is the reason we are instructed to "shun all appearances of evil" as not to cause people's discernment to be jerked around. After all, we have to live in society and choose friends, acquaintances, businesses and husbands and wife's.
Yes, the talent of music has been given to many, but it takes real "showmanship" to perform for attention. I like the songs that people can bring inspiration from the Holy Spirit without the self performing attention getters. Certain Adventist singer, I really cannot stand to watch. One of the most inspiring singer we have is Maddie on Ken Cox with the organ music. Her melody of voice is so disciplined into natural tones. Her music is perfect. Her language is perfect and her projecting of the music comes strictly from inspiration and quite beautiful. I often thought she must have taught music as she sings so perfect. Del Decker is another that sang inspiration and not a performer. It is a gift of perfection given to her with her honest heart. Another, that is steady, unchangeable and such a melodious voice is Joe Pearles. He does no performing unless he is outside in nature with no attention to himself. Also I love the men's choir and quartet that I just heard the other night.
Linda's voice and music is also good but she does not need the videos to make her better. She has the sincere and valid way of a true singer for Jesus. She does not come across as a performer in spirit although the videos are made with beauty along to observe. But like Maddie she doesn't need it. She can stand on her own to get her music across. I really like the organ player on Ken Cox too. I wish the evangelists would realize that when they have the singers injected into their seminars, they should choose the ones that get Jesus across instead of the performers. I term the word performers maybe different then
most, I sort of look at that word is one who brings attention to their selves so much in gyrations that you forget what they are singing about. Oh, well it is obvious I do not like the high jumping and stomping, drumming, clapping, banging, and body language that is displayed in great emotion to worship God. Somehow I just never, ever pictured Jesus worshiping the Father in that manner.
I also come from a long, long, line of happy music that is not worship music . It is the folk music. I do not dance but my heart grows happy as the folk music of happy people of different old time (polka music, or swiss yodeling,) culture coming together. People happy together. But for Sabbath and worship it is a time for reverence done God's way or should I say example. ONe thing for sure it is a pretty big subject and we should use good reasoning in all.
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The use of percussion instruments and dance in worship was biblical, but like so many other things, it was established as un-Christian by a religion, and the tradition set in motion by that has been followed across centuries. Although we say that we don't hold tradition as equal to the Bible in authority, in practice and belief we give tradition greater authority than the Bible in matters such as dress, music, dance, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately we seem to often establish our personal taste and feeling in matters of music, dress, food, worship style, etc as divine mandate and then attempt to enforce it on others as dogma.
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Wise words, George.
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George,
Aahhaa, the same thing I see happening within some churches is that some individuals try to get everyone to go vegan. The results are very bad.
Also, it is so sought after that soon it seems to lead into people worrying so much about their self and extremism that fianlly they are debasted get pretty screwy acting. It is worry some for me. You better be a nutrionist before you start. It can lead to extreme disabilities that soon can be detected by out siders when you lead people to do this when they don't know what they are doing. I truly believe in EGW when she states not to make yourself weak before time demands it. But then those come back and say well "Time demands it now"! I say that God's time will demand it and we will know when. I think at that time it will be worse then vegan where food is able to be found. So stay healthy and as strong as you can till then. (Not much out there to be healthy these days anyway. Why make it worse? You know you will not loose heaven because you ate clean meats. But you will be vegetarian if living at the time of the coming without seeing death. So why do we make it all such an issue? In the beginning, We were to show people not to eat the unclean meats, coffee, tea, achohol, cigs, etc. etc. Finally, EGW had to address the fantacism so again people are doing just what you said George.
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George, George, George...you never cease to amaze me.....Well said, my friend.
Thing is people who see things as George, or I do. generally(but not always) have a healthy respect for all forms of worship. Tinka, those singers are your personal favorites, and there is nothing absolutely wrong with that. I have others who are mine, and there is nothing wrong with that either. It is about who reaches us, the music through which the Holy Spirit speaks to us personally. However, that doesn't mean that music and only that music can speak to others. Now one thing, I do notice is that you are easily distracted, and that is no failing of the singer/musician. You might try to ask God to help you make you focus more veritcal instead of horizontal.
The use of percussion instruments and dance in worship was biblical, but like so many other things, it was established as un-Christian by a religion, and the tradition set in motion by that has been followed across centuries. Although we say that we don't hold tradition as equal to the Bible in authority, in practice and belief we give tradition greater authority than the Bible in matters such as dress, music, dance, jewelry, etc. Unfortunately we seem to often establish our personal taste and feeling in matters of music, dress, food, worship style, etc as divine mandate and then attempt to enforce it on others as dogma.
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We make it such an issue for the same reason we make an issue what everyone else is wearing, watching on TV/movies, listening for music, etc. We long)and have been taught) conformity, to feel part of a group where we all are doing the same thing. It is human, but something we must get over is we are truly to enter into individual relationships with God. He may take you where no one else is, you have to have enough faith for it to be just Him and you. We do this all the time with our earthly relationships. We don't expect each individual marriage to be like any other. Same thing.
George,
Aahhaa, the same thing I see happening within some churches is that some individuals try to get everyone to go vegan. The results are very bad.
Also, it is so sought after that soon it seems to lead into people worrying so much about their self and extremism that fianlly they are debasted get pretty screwy acting. It is worry some for me. You better be a nutrionist before you start. It can lead to extreme disabilities that soon can be detected by out siders when you lead people to do this when they don't know what they are doing. I truly believe in EGW when she states not to make yourself weak before time demands it. But then those come back and say well "Time demands it now"! I say that God's time will demand it and we will know when. I think at that time it will be worse then vegan where food is able to be found. So stay healthy and as strong as you can till then. (Not much out there to be healthy these days anyway. Why make it worse? You know you will not loose heaven because you ate clean meats. But you will be vegetarian if living at the time of the coming without seeing death. So why do we make it all such an issue? In the beginning, We were to show people not to eat the unclean meats, coffee, tea, achohol, cigs, etc. etc. Finally, EGW had to address the fantacism so again people are doing just what you said George.
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No, Di, I am not easily distracted. I keep many things going on all at once with still large family out there, and usually quite tired when I get into the posts. I am a very busy person as others have need.
The point I am trying to get across and fail for right words (many times) is not for acceptance for ones self desires but why do we choose what we do? Is it for our own emotions? our own likes? our own time, our own inner character, our own everything that pleases us the most. We must discipline into the right channels by divine direction and willingness of doing what our Example is set before us. Then learning to love the direction since from birth we are selfish individuals. Finally it is a well feeling of right choosing with inspirational secure feeling. It is not a feeling of justified selfishness for ones own agenda. This probably is the only selfish thought when I see people that can radiate this type of character as i posted my preferences of music.
I mentioned my likes, and here are some more, I used to be a great horse fan, had em, raised em, (but the racing end of excitement I would not venture in as it would be in my blood) fine dogs, like beautiful jewelry, (but don't own any) . I was the oldest and received the biggest family diamond of ancestors. I sold it to pay a bill. I did not know what a stone could do for me? But my likes were not what I needed to come closer to my real need so many things I force my will utill I have a feeling that is connection hopefully on my creators likes. I am quite disappointed that I did not have these thought early in life. I have since decided that we are controlled by our own likes and then justify why. We have an example, and our emotions are to be used to do good or evil. I still fight daily to control my likes as it presents , some time wasted as I have some hobby's, that I am sure I should not have to the extent that I like to do. Some times I overdo to take away hurt of trials. i do not believe in conformity to no one. I have been taught to follow only ONE. Lessons have been many by trusting what man says and does. and this text has made great impact on my life and I wanted to post it to No sirmizing but then again he or she would not have understood what I was getting at.
It is the verse where it states and I can bring it up later as I am not on my regular computer at the moment but in Eccl. It says there is nothing new under the sun that was not known or here before. That is a whole lot to think and ponder over. Everything is vanity. For ones own self????
God takes us when we are willing to obey his will and not our own. That is my everyday thoughts that mostly I fail to do. ECCL:
1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.
1:10 Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
1:13 And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all [things] that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.
1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.
Hmm, this can be applied to many things. But conformity to me means all in unity under God's direction and not our own . EGW explains exactely this about the music because there are far more cultures then what could be satisfied or brought to gether with everyone's choices... In stead we have conformed to please everyones preferences. I am not agreeable to that. But that is only me and my belief or opinion. One thing for sure everyone has the freedom to do as they chose.
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This discussion has some similarities to a discussion I discovered is going on Spectrum. There someone is claiming that Doug Batchelor and Amazing Facts are not using legitimate tools in evangelism. . . You may want to read it yourself.
http://bit.ly/20yv1e
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I firmly do not believe the women dressing in long dresses with long sleeves and cotton tights (even in the summer ugh!) is a salvation issue. This kind of nonsense was part of what pushed me out of the formal church years ago. And musical styles. Some adventists often end up in nonsensical arguments that have no real bearing on evangelization or salvation.
Willow
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Johann,
Just read your link. did not know it was there :ROFL: who in the world are they kidding. that conference is the most liberal of all. You would be lucky to find a place that has any signifiance of conservative except maybe a couple of places. The reason is they need a new president years ago. Why do you thinki it is now in this shape and still mounting? No one could ever make a believer of anything coming out of Ohio. Any good pastors seem to leave and go to Michigan. or who knows where! Our daughter tried going back and thought she entered into charasmatic movement. This post is not big enough to tell the stories with out end encluding the schools.
You see, people are really satisfied to do as they please, (dress, jewelry, and what feels good and when. They have the best president for that!!!I
I heard even in some place the preacher had them line up for the wafer and no foot washing. :ROFL: think this means nothing, think again what is happening.
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Are you concluding that most of the Adventist who will not reach the crystal gates might end up in Ohio?
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Johann,
Laughing, but yet not so funny Johann. I would say a big share of that just might be.
I think I am more upset of the comments with glee over the final protection of the takers of the SDA pew money that seems the devil has protected with great folly. God knows the truth of the matter. He knows the truth what happened to us too. sometimes Johann I think I now and then try to remind Jesus that we are not made of Job as it seems we have more then our share of woes. One thing certain is no one is in the shoes of lies like the protectors of wasteful extravaganza money that justify their selfish funding of lush desires. There is nothing to fear for the enlightenment of supposedly secret lifestyles. Soon maybe the feeding of the :horse: s will get a kick in the bucket at least expectancy.
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I firmly do not believe the women dressing in long dresses with long sleeves and cotton tights (even in the summer ugh!) is a salvation issue. This kind of nonsense was part of what pushed me out of the formal church years ago. And musical styles. Some adventists often end up in nonsensical arguments that have no real bearing on evangelization or salvation.
Willow
Certainly folks can and do go overboard. But would you say that there are some that could be more modest?
The Adventist Review recently had an article on the topic: "The Allure of Modesty." (http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2862) I couldn't see anything wrong with it. What do you think?
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I suppose it appears a woman dressed that shows all is touched by all old and used. Can he compete???
A man respects a woman that has modesty letting him know that top morals only can enter into relationship. and that her choice will be him and him only.
Hmm, seems outward appearance is a great tool for discerning character.
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Now Tinka, you know you can't just leave it like that. Please give just one example of what your daughter found. If it was all that open, there is no need to worry about naming names. If you are still worried, just tell the incident and block the name out............... LOL!!
Johann,
Just read your link. did not know it was there :ROFL: who in the world are they kidding. that conference is the most liberal of all. You would be lucky to find a place that has any signifiance of conservative except maybe a couple of places. The reason is they need a new president years ago. Why do you thinki it is now in this shape and still mounting? No one could ever make a believer of anything coming out of Ohio. Any good pastors seem to leave and go to Michigan. or who knows where! Our daughter tried going back and thought she entered into charasmatic movement. This post is not big enough to tell the stories with out end encluding the schools.
You see, people are really satisfied to do as they please, (dress, jewelry, and what feels good and when. They have the best president for that!!!I
I heard even in some place the preacher had them line up for the wafer and no foot washing. :ROFL: think this means nothing, think again what is happening.
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Well... Di,
They know who they are, and with great possibility if I state it I do not want everyone to know who I might be that does all the yelling (laugh). The roof might fall in.
But what she found was the pulpit removed, banging band, hands in the air, body language, and jazz. That was not the reverance she was taught and as she finally left to not return again she called and asked me what happened! You know Di, this is just a smidge of actions that take place in that conference. They no longer have camp meeting and some the orginal way of worship is no more. Of course the older people are not going to waste their time and money on a camp meeting of the new age and charasamatic music that is now sought after from the leaders.
It is no longer worship to God but all saga's that people bring up of the most rediculous episodes for ones personal self that it is total embarassment. I feel they can take it to the Lord on their knees 6 days a week and the 7th is for worship to God to him and not our selves. Guess I do not know what is wrong with me.. but I would not change into this new blues music or the rap at any church that does it. I will not nail them as then it can be pinpointed right to the church.
I understand that Ohio had some really good inspirational pastors but they are no longer in the state and i think it was for their traditional Adventist preaching and very possible the use of church funds in disagreement, but I am not saying I am totally right on that.
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I remember a story about a loud group of boistrous kids who were not adhering to the reverence they had been taught to show in church. The elders wanted them to be quiet or leave, but Jesus preferred the noise and wildness of the kids to the reverence of the elders.
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George,
Have you read anything in the counsels of how we are to train our children for church? I think it might be in vol 5 T. My children have been taught reverence and quietness since they were taken on day one to church. and to this day they will never except what goes on now. They never had to be spanked but just a look was instant understanding. I enjoyed taking them all to the grocery or shopping with me. They were well behaved in public. I just trained then the way my mother trained all of us. My best time was in summer when school was out and sad in the fall when I was left alone without them. I have witnessed children allowed to run in "wild" terms, up and down the isles, back and forth, no discipline and the parents think it cute while distracting others and typically loud with no mind of what they were doing in a church. Now as they are older their lives are not cute. No manners or respect for other peoples property no longer in church as far as I know. I can imagine and believe the children in the day of Jesus quite different then now as they sat upon His knee.
I know He must be sad to see children raised in a manner of not knowing that He was their Creator and the story of His Love for them. So many children are like that and have no reason or foundation to know why they should not be "wild". My daughter is a teacher in public schools and the hardest part and most hopeless is how many children are like that. What is more heartbreaking is when the children become attached to her and she has to let it go. I would not be able to stand what she goes through. It is just too sad.
I would say that Jesus sought to do what the parents did not do and His need was there. Other wise throw out the counsel of EGW.
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George, if we ever meet, you have a HUGE christian hug from Princessdi coming! Teach!
I remember a story about a loud group of boistrous kids who were not adhering to the reverence they had been taught to show in church. The elders wanted them to be quiet or leave, but Jesus preferred the noise and wildness of the kids to the reverence of the elders.
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Princess di,
You know, not all children of wicked parents will be saved! So Jesus had a reason to to act as He did.
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I am not sure at all that the children were any different, Tinka. Afterall, they did have laws about those rebellious and disobedient children..........A certain OT priests sons come to mind.......and they were some bad actors for sure...also, some children taunting a prophet of God....I don't know Tinka.....then there is the prodigal son, I am not seeing him as particularly obedient before he took his rebellious show on the road.......(please know that I am not blind to the change and excalation of sin in this world these days......just pointing out that there were disobedient children back then).
Thank you for your example of what your daughter found. I actually had an inkling of what you were talking about. I am far to "fearful"(respectful) of praise and worship offered to God to join the ranks of Michal. Not wanting any barren areas in my life. Only God can judge praise and worship given unto Him. We can only prefer one over the other....and a personal preference is all it is. Just because we prefer it doesn't make it God's preference......
George,
Have you read anything in the counsels of how we are to train our children for church? I think it might be in vol 5 T. My children have been taught reverence and quietness since they were taken on day one to church. and to this day they will never except what goes on now. They never had to be spanked but just a look was instant understanding. I enjoyed taking them all to the grocery or shopping with me. They were well behaved in public. I just trained then the way my mother trained all of us. My best time was in summer when school was out and sad in the fall when I was left alone without them. I have witnessed children allowed to run in "wild" terms, up and down the isles, back and forth, no discipline and the parents think it cute while distracting others and typically loud with no mind of what they were doing in a church. Now as they are older their lives are not cute. No manners or respect for other peoples property no longer in church as far as I know. I can imagine and believe the children in the day of Jesus quite different then now as they sat upon His knee.
I know He must be sad to see children raised in a manner of not knowing that He was their Creator and the story of His Love for them. So many children are like that and have no reason or foundation to know why they should not be "wild". My daughter is a teacher in public schools and the hardest part and most hopeless is how many children are like that. What is more heartbreaking is when the children become attached to her and she has to let it go. I would not be able to stand what she goes through. It is just too sad.
I would say that Jesus sought to do what the parents did not do and His need was there. Other wise throw out the counsel of EGW.
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Your right there Di,
It seems so overwhelming to how in this world people will come to unity with so many different cultures. But the Lord knows. I basically know and read the Bible but EGW cleared and made some things more simple to understand and I don't know if I would have got it because I am a person that likes the finest of in between details. I am like that with almost everything I do and somethimes I think it is not so good. I am that way in sewing, crocheting, cooking, gardening, reading, music and what ever. (it all has to come around in complete circle.) for me to believe or do. I think it wall was drilled into me by doing the best you can in what ever you do and then stay open to people who can do better.
But yet I always try to have open mind in all things and see others point unless I know without doubt a fact.
It is kinda like this as example. Everyone said OJ was guilty. But he was found innocent. I would have been the one to agree as I watched the whole trial with interest. I weighed everything and there was not complete evidence without doubt if I would have been on the jury. Maybe he was guilty but there was just not enough to convict. Too many things were open. and now I feel he was set up in the end. I am not going to go into it on here but there was one thing that stood out in particular that would not have let me say oj was guilty. OJ might not be a christian the way we think but he is a smart man if you really listen to him on some of his interviews. I cannot say 100% like all the media said or did for a conviction. Then they put him trough double jeapordy in the courts by allowing the money hungry Goldman's that cry and cry for his destruction when there is not 100% evidence of any witness or forensic evidence for a civil law suit once he was found innocent. I was sorry Goldman's lost their son but it got to the point I could not stand his plee for OJ's money. Now what can you do with OJ's money and what is so important to spend the blood of his son. The media really convicted him before trial. OF course if he did it he deserved everything. But you see what the courts did. This is just one case of evidence what courts can do and be the protector when money is involved. Before this ever happened OJ told his friend that he eventually would be stripped of all his assets by....................!! His friend died about 3-4 years ago.
There was too much going on with the two sisters lives and too much scary stuff with other outsiders. They were not believable to me. We knew some people that knew OJ really well on the gulf course and fishing in Florida. OJ discussed a lot with him before any of this happened. It was quite a story. One has to wonder what happens to celebrities or people that have certain wealth to bring them down if favors are not met. It is a very crooked and cruel world. Sorry I got off into all this, but l(laugh) I'm getting old too.
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Yes, I have. I have also read the Bible and find that wild and joyful celebration of worship was something Jesus encouraged and wanted. It delighted him. The ones who required quiet reverence out of kids in worship were rebuked for it. I am not about to tell Jesus that he was wrong and that we have greater light now than he had then.
Wildness and disrespect are very different from wild love and worship. Kids didn't just sit on Jesus' lap, they danced and sang, they waved palm branches, they were loud and wild in their adoration of him, and he loved that. The Pharisees and elders were horrified at this display of emotion and physical action and dance, but Jesus rebuked them, and went on enjoying the antics of the kids who were showing their love for him through their song and dance.
Many years later, the church of Rome overturned what Jesus started and instituted a worship that was like that of the worship of Roman Emperors in its quiet reverence and fear. 2,000 years later we live in the shadow of that long tradition and fear Biblical teaching and particularly the teaching of Jesus as ungodly because of church tradition. We live in the valley of the shadow 19th century Methodist worship that embraced method to the exclusion of the emotion of love and was far closer to the Roman Church they were so bitterly opposed to than a few burgeoning elements of Christian reform whom they abhored. I hear the tears of Jesus every time I see someone's love of Jesus crushed by the reverent quietude imposed on his children by the Pharisees of today.
George,
Have you read anything in the counsels of how we are to train our children for church? I think it might be in vol 5 T. My children have been taught reverence and quietness since they were taken on day one to church. and to this day they will never except what goes on now. They never had to be spanked but just a look was instant understanding. I enjoyed taking them all to the grocery or shopping with me. They were well behaved in public. I just trained then the way my mother trained all of us. My best time was in summer when school was out and sad in the fall when I was left alone without them. I have witnessed children allowed to run in "wild" terms, up and down the isles, back and forth, no discipline and the parents think it cute while distracting others and typically loud with no mind of what they were doing in a church. Now as they are older their lives are not cute. No manners or respect for other peoples property no longer in church as far as I know. I can imagine and believe the children in the day of Jesus quite different then now as they sat upon His knee.
I know He must be sad to see children raised in a manner of not knowing that He was their Creator and the story of His Love for them. So many children are like that and have no reason or foundation to know why they should not be "wild". My daughter is a teacher in public schools and the hardest part and most hopeless is how many children are like that. What is more heartbreaking is when the children become attached to her and she has to let it go. I would not be able to stand what she goes through. It is just too sad.
I would say that Jesus sought to do what the parents did not do and His need was there. Other wise throw out the counsel of EGW.
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Intellect tells us the facts and figures about who we love, but love is not just an intellectual function, it is emotion. Love without emotional display is downright creepy. I would be totally creeped out if my kids were to quietly reverence me instead of going wild and jumping around, dancing, climbing all over me, and showing their love with emotion, yelling, singing, laughing, and physical wildness. If someone were to instuct them that showing emotion through physical gyration and wild display of loving me was wrong and that I would not approve, that person would experience my wrath at its worst. God gave us emotion, rythm, song, and dance and to deny the gifts he gave us, is to throw something he treasures back in his face and tell him that his gifts and creation are bad.
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Every thing in its place and timing is just fine George as you say but shall we now go in the streets and dance naked as David? (laugh) you can if you want to. I am talking about church etiquette and actions for children in church hours. This dancing bit is not entirely how we think today. The same thing that people think that a little wine is good using the text litterally instead of understanding the real meaning. We are to abstain from it. So I take it you are against the counsel we have about the proper actions of children during reverence hours. 6 days our children were free to play as they chose but also learned work. They are hard workers to this day and they like work. My husband and I laid on the floor and did all their playing with them too. But a right time is for everything. and the other thing is that in the actions of today the disruptive children were not worshiping with what you are stating. I doubt if they knew why they were there. That is the difference and where I am coming from.
Hmm, must have touched something as this posted with first sentence.
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Why Tinka! You surprise me. You are right on many counts aobut the OJ trial, but he was not set up and he knows more than he is telling. Johnny Cochoran did not get set up. I just happen to believe that he was there before the police, and the police kind shot themselves in the foot.....and all the other questions you brought to mind. just too many unanswered questions on both sides. We may never know the truth.
Yes, Tinks too much perfection is soon called OCD, these days.......LOL!! Just kidding. You sound as if if you do something you do your best and with excellence.....God's woman of excellence.........That was the theme for women's day one year......
Your right there Di,
It seems so overwhelming to how in this world people will come to unity with so many different cultures. But the Lord knows. I basically know and read the Bible but EGW cleared and made some things more simple to understand and I don't know if I would have got it because I am a person that likes the finest of in between details. I am like that with almost everything I do and somethimes I think it is not so good. I am that way in sewing, crocheting, cooking, gardening, reading, music and what ever. (it all has to come around in complete circle.) for me to believe or do. I think it wall was drilled into me by doing the best you can in what ever you do and then stay open to people who can do better.
But yet I always try to have open mind in all things and see others point unless I know without doubt a fact.
It is kinda like this as example. Everyone said OJ was guilty. But he was found innocent. I would have been the one to agree as I watched the whole trial with interest. I weighed everything and there was not complete evidence without doubt if I would have been on the jury. Maybe he was guilty but there was just not enough to convict. Too many things were open. and now I feel he was set up in the end. I am not going to go into it on here but there was one thing that stood out in particular that would not have let me say oj was guilty. OJ might not be a christian the way we think but he is a smart man if you really listen to him on some of his interviews. I cannot say 100% like all the media said or did for a conviction. Then they put him trough double jeapordy in the courts by allowing the money hungry Goldman's that cry and cry for his destruction when there is not 100% evidence of any witness or forensic evidence for a civil law suit once he was found innocent. I was sorry Goldman's lost their son but it got to the point I could not stand his plee for OJ's money. Now what can you do with OJ's money and what is so important to spend the blood of his son. The media really convicted him before trial. OF course if he did it he deserved everything. But you see what the courts did. This is just one case of evidence what courts can do and be the protector when money is involved. Before this ever happened OJ told his friend that he eventually would be stripped of all his assets by....................!! His friend died about 3-4 years ago.
There was too much going on with the two sisters lives and too much scary stuff with other outsiders. They were not believable to me. We knew some people that knew OJ really well on the gulf course and fishing in Florida. OJ discussed a lot with him before any of this happened. It was quite a story. One has to wonder what happens to celebrities or people that have certain wealth to bring them down if favors are not met. It is a very crooked and cruel world. Sorry I got off into all this, but l(laugh) I'm getting old too.
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As I remember, it was at church that Jesus wanted the kids to be loud and active in their worship, not out on the street or at home.
I find it interesting from the perspective of anthropology to see how time, tradition, evolution through churches, and the impact of civilizations has changed Christianity. The dominant cultures dogmatize their cultural preferences and impose them as religious obligations, and call things "sin" that the original Jesus and his followers did. Across the two millenia since Christ lived, thousands of groups have come together and formed new dogma and literary guidebooks that supercede the teachings of Jesus in the lives of the followers, while at the same time using the teachings of Jesus to give themselves credibility. Clothing, jewelry, food, form of worship and many other matters that no group can find justification for, except in cultural tradition, have been the factors that have caused division, hatred, killing, persecution and war. My observation has been that the teachings of Jesus have always brought people together, but the imposition of cultural preference through religion has always caused division.
Love, adoration, praise, and worship that Jesus so enjoyed has to be crushed in order to open up a void that can be filled. For two thousand years the dominant Church and many others have had to create that void in the spiritual lives of the followers in order to replace it with wrote and dogma. Love is an emotion, and on its own can be dangerous. Intellect is the opposite of emotion and on its own is equally dangerous. Both used in an antithetical manner to the other are common tools of manipulation. A balance of the two brings mental and emotional stability. I watch people crush the intellect in their children through religious dogma, and the result is no sense of personal structure. They demand faith to the exclusion of reason. Then there are those who crush emotion out and use the other extreme as an example of why they should. These ones often place their personal value on appearance. They seem to feel that the appearance of simplicity and absence of emotion in worship defines them as superior in their religion and culture, when they are just as unbalanced as the wild hootenany's they look down on. So, divisions are created. Then we look at the balance of emotion and intellect that Jesus displayed and taught. It included solid intellectual structure that was built around emotion and expression. He showed that they are not mutually exclusive. He lived in a time when the church had evolved from the Davidian emotion and worship through exuberant display and outpouring of praise, to the Pharisaical period where worship was done in quiet reverence, and emotion was despised. Jesus made it clear that he this was unacceptable. He wanted loud praise, singing, and physical expression of feeling in the house of worship, where he taught and brought intellectual enlightenment to the people.
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Preach!!! :thumbsup:
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Di
the Las Vegas thing that now has OJ in jail I totally believe he was at that time set up.
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Sorry for being so dingy, Tinka. Las Vegas thingy...I dont' believe he was set up then either. You can't be set up if they dont' ever believe you will fall for the bait, like Mayor Marion Barry. silly people.......sigh. He(OJ), more than anybody else in the world, just should have called the police.........
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Di,
And what police would help him in anything???? OJ knows this! I am not sure if ol Goldman did'nt concock such a thing in his obsession with OJ money. It had to be something that would hit OJ hard. The rest of his personal, sentimental things he wanted for his children. Money that could go to the Goldmans exposed to where it was at. Didn't you see the appearance of the Goldmans as soon as all this hit claiming any money again?? They actually made me sick everytime they came on tv. OJ's friends even turned on him for his money. In so helping him to hide his personal they turned on him to get what they could too. Who rigged that up ??? Seems to me all anybody wanted out of him was his money and so did his hot tamale while she played. What was she spending it on?? Lover boy Goldman?? He was gay too. But your right on one thing no one will probably know the truth and all you have is "outside appearances." One thing was for sure. The person that called oj wife to return her mother's glasses where she left them, knew where she was at...at the right time and place when he had Goldman take them to her. Think of that open end. OJ had no way of knowing the glasses were being returned at that exact time as he was gone when this took place. Goldman and oj wife was into something.. what was it?? jealousy of Goldman's aquaintances?? anything was possible and that is why I would not have convicted! Goldman's son was no saint either as they portrayed.
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I firmly do not believe the women dressing in long dresses with long sleeves and cotton tights (even in the summer ugh!) is a salvation issue. This kind of nonsense was part of what pushed me out of the formal church years ago. And musical styles. Some adventists often end up in nonsensical arguments that have no real bearing on evangelization or salvation.
Willow
Certainly folks can and do go overboard. But would you say that there are some that could be more modest?
The Adventist Review recently had an article on the topic: "The Allure of Modesty." (http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=2862) I couldn't see anything wrong with it. What do you think?
My general rule of thumb is: If guys are looking at you like they want to give you money to get in their cars, you should probably rethink your mode of dress. My hard fast rule (I have 4 daughters): Nothing low cut,nothing see through dress at the top of the knees or lower. Other than that why invite out right rebellion by fighting with em.....
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WillowRun,
Your suggestion sounds sensible.
George,
I know of a couple kids that would scream in church. During the sermon suit them just fine, and near one's table at potluck.
The story you refer to was of kids singing praises to God. That's sounds a bit different than wild and noisy worship.
On the other hand, when Peter and John went to pray, and met a lame man on the way, and he went walking and leaping and praising God, I doubt he was as inhibited in doing so as some super educated and cultured type might be. He made a bit of a scene, which was why everyone came running to see what was going on.
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If those things were stolen from OJ, then it is the police's duty to do something about it. If they didn't then, he might have had some reason to take another road, with that prrof behind him. Taking it into his own hands from the begining was foolish a the very least. You can't be set up if there is any doubt that you will react in the expected manner. They could not have set OJ up without knowing how he would react, and he not disappointing them by falling into the trap.
As for the rest, no one had clean hands here. That is why it was so hard to determine the truth in this case.
Di,
And what police would help him in anything???? OJ knows this! I am not sure if ol Goldman did'nt concock such a thing in his obsession with OJ money. It had to be something that would hit OJ hard. The rest of his personal, sentimental things he wanted for his children. Money that could go to the Goldmans exposed to where it was at. Didn't you see the appearance of the Goldmans as soon as all this hit claiming any money again?? They actually made me sick everytime they came on tv. OJ's friends even turned on him for his money. In so helping him to hide his personal they turned on him to get what they could too. Who rigged that up ??? Seems to me all anybody wanted out of him was his money and so did his hot tamale while she played. What was she spending it on?? Lover boy Goldman?? He was gay too. But your right on one thing no one will probably know the truth and all you have is "outside appearances." One thing was for sure. The person that called oj wife to return her mother's glasses where she left them, knew where she was at...at the right time and place when he had Goldman take them to her. Think of that open end. OJ had no way of knowing the glasses were being returned at that exact time as he was gone when this took place. Goldman and oj wife was into something.. what was it?? jealousy of Goldman's aquaintances?? anything was possible and that is why I would not have convicted! Goldman's son was no saint either as they portrayed.
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I also know of kids who scream and are simply disruptive in church. I am sure you know that is very different from what I am talking about. Apples and oranges.
To the pharisees of that day, kids singing praises to God was wild and noisy worship and they took issue with it. They wanted the kids to be quiet. It is relative to what one's culture and tradition has formed in them. For some people praise and worship does not come from the heart if it doesn't include song and dance expressing their worship. To others that is nothing more than heathen behaviour that does not please God, because it doesn't please them. I find nothing wrong with a nice quiet worship service in which voices are muted, the music is quiet and simple, and "proper reverence" is shown. In the context of worshipers whose culture demands it, that is good. I also see nothing wrong with services that include drums, cymbals, dance, song, and passionate praise. It certainly is biblical.
WillowRun,
Your suggestion sounds sensible.
George,
I know of a couple kids that would scream in church. During the sermon suit them just fine, and near one's table at potluck.
The story you refer to was of kids singing praises to God. That's sounds a bit different than wild and noisy worship.
On the other hand, when Peter and John went to pray, and met a lame man on the way, and he went walking and leaping and praising God, I doubt he was as inhibited in doing so as some super educated and cultured type might be. He made a bit of a scene, which was why everyone came running to see what was going on.
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George,
I like to follow the inspirational writings of EGW on the explanations of music and what symbals cause what in the spirit and reverance. Therefore if I am wrong in my likes I have only me to blame. an example: a baby about a year old or less was standing up on pew holding on to back. The jazzed up music started and the baby started to dance in tune with the music. Her little body went into all the jirations and parents thought it was cute. The baby did not know she was in worship service. But music of that nature developed out the instincts of what??? A true Adventist knows the real way but some justify their own cultures, preferences and far out theories to the guidence we have to be in unity.
Unity is most important but so far the hardest to be in. Can you imagine all the confusion that has been created by each individual likes and wants in the worship time. What would be a good way to apease all at the same time?? Noway, except the way presented in unity. Our spirit can dance with joy, our heart can dance with love, our bodies do not need to dance for the Lord to read our spirit that dances for Him. That is why I asked you if you wanted to go out and dance naked like David. I do not see where that would give anyone the version that it is ok to do that. I mean you can if you want to go to jail for public exposure....
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The child was developing the God-given sense of rhythm. It is sad to see God give his children gifts and then see them taken away and thrown in the trash.
Like the Catholics and Mormons many Adventists give the Bible a substantial place in our religion, but only as it conforms to tradition and other writings held even more sacred. Tinka, I respect that you are upfront about that. I still chuckle over being told that Jesus ate meat because he didn't have the benefit of "The Spirit of Prophecy."
Just like the Catholic church did for millenia, some Adventists canonize their culture and preferences as "true adventism" and in the name of "unity" attempt to force their personal and cultural quirks on the world. That sort of Adventist Christianity sometimes reminds me of congressional bills. They won't let the bill pass until their own personal pork-barrel has been added.
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Yes George, Jesus did eat meat and I for one have stated on here that eating the clean meat will not keep you from heaven. It is just the condition what people are doing to make the meat unsafe for the profit of money. That goes for the gentically engineered seeds too. But we have to know how to use what we can. This is all far beyond what they did in EGW day. Except in Lev. it already states and commands that the people stop were crossing the animals and the seeds. They were also crossing the line with human and animal as it is stated that is "confusion". That word seems pretty big to me and I conclude that is where the abstract of humans and animals that they call prehistoric. After all I believe they are still doing it to this day. Ham that was placed in the African country after the ark landed still carried the knowledge and according to EGW the practice was then again displayed.
Also, I am in the same belief that we have all emotions good and bad. I believe we do should not need to excerise the bad emotions that are from sin and not gifts of God. A good pickpocket with jest of hand is a talent, so are the war dances, and so are the dances of the cult. Why bring them out when you do not know which way they will go. Michael Jackson also had a gift of dance that the whole world followed. Wow!! Now that was a gift chosen from the parents and trained him to do. It ended up evil. A baby shaking their bootie is not the little sunbeam I would want for them to learn to praise God. No that would not happen under my care of my little sunbeam. I will still stick to what is the only sensible reading outside of the Bible.
Jesus wants me for a sunbeam to shine for him each day.
In everyway try to please him at home at school at play.
a sunbeam, a sunbeam, I'll be a sunbeam for Him!!! I remember that from a year old! It has stayed with me my whole life. Just that simple little song of purity, security, love and simplicity. It is that easy. No need to discover sinful emotions.
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So because there are war dances, etc, all dance is bad? Should we then refrain from all swimming because some people have drowned? Again, I see that as simply personal preference projected as God's preference.
Ummm... the part about EGW, Ham, Africa, and the mixing of species, that is a serious can of worms.
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George, its all there for the reading.
Look under Amalgamations. But you do not have to go anywhere but the Bible to read what God commanded them not to do in Lev. If they were not doing it it would not have been mentioned.
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Well, now, Tinka, let's start with EGW and malgamations. Not so good, those quotes and/or misquotes are what have some believing EGW practiced racism, or even worse some form of self hatred.
We should not count on everythign single thing being mentioned in the Bible. It is not. a "council" of clergy selected the books, not God, and along with the books not chosen wer some facts left unmentioned. Especially the OT where you don't even have the stories in written form until the time on Moses. This was not a problem to the subsequent OT or NT readers as it is clear the books were written for people with prior knowledge. Just as int eh NT not all of Jesus miracles, etc. were not mentioned. No book as concise as the Bible could contain all of that information.
However, if after Leviticus David was dancing unto the Lord and his wife was the only one who had a problem, and the only one rebuked by the Lord for voicing that displeasure, I believe that it is safe to assume that God actually has no problem with dancing. We are also forgetting the culture of the COI/Jews, they had dance as a part of their culture for various celebrations in which Jesus participated. We do not see where Jesus came down and commanded them to change that.
I have to go with George on this one, again. A lot of personal preference being exhibited. Also, the mistaken impression that everyone who reads the same material will come to the same conclusions. Not to meontion our own version of traditionalism, which, BTW, atually comes from the over zealous puritans, and not God.........
George, its all there for the reading.
Look under Amalgamations. But you do not have to go anywhere but the Bible to read what God commanded them not to do in Lev. If they were not doing it it would not have been mentioned.
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Tinka, all talents are gifts from God(you know I am not talking about the stealing part, sin is sin). However, because of free will you can chose not to use your gift or talent for God, or even more deliberately in the cause of satan. To believe anything else, gives satan some form of creative powers and he has none. Mchael Jacksons parents did not teach him to dance, he had it naturally, even before they realized it. When they did, the father promptly took advantage, but they gave them no dance/music lessons, etc.
Yes George, Jesus did eat meat and I for one have stated on here that eating the clean meat will not keep you from heaven. It is just the condition what people are doing to make the meat unsafe for the profit of money. That goes for the gentically engineered seeds too. But we have to know how to use what we can. This is all far beyond what they did in EGW day. Except in Lev. it already states and commands that the people stop were crossing the animals and the seeds. They were also crossing the line with human and animal as it is stated that is "confusion". That word seems pretty big to me and I conclude that is where the abstract of humans and animals that they call prehistoric. After all I believe they are still doing it to this day. Ham that was placed in the African country after the ark landed still carried the knowledge and according to EGW the practice was then again displayed.
Also, I am in the same belief that we have all emotions good and bad. I believe we do should not need to excerise the bad emotions that are from sin and not gifts of God. A good pickpocket with jest of hand is a talent, so are the war dances, and so are the dances of the cult. Why bring them out when you do not know which way they will go. Michael Jackson also had a gift of dance that the whole world followed. Wow!! Now that was a gift chosen from the parents and trained him to do. It ended up evil. A baby shaking their bootie is not the little sunbeam I would want for them to learn to praise God. No that would not happen under my care of my little sunbeam. I will still stick to what is the only sensible reading outside of the Bible.
Jesus wants me for a sunbeam to shine for him each day.
In everyway try to please him at home at school at play.
a sunbeam, a sunbeam, I'll be a sunbeam for Him!!! I remember that from a year old! It has stayed with me my whole life. Just that simple little song of purity, security, love and simplicity. It is that easy. No need to discover sinful emotions.
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I googled and this is what I found.
"But if there was one sin above another which called for the destruction of the race by the flood, it was the base crime of amalgamation of man and beast which defaced the image of God, and caused confusion everywhere." -Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p. 64, 1864.
"Every species of animal which God had created, were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the endless varieties of species of animals and certain races of men."- Spiritual Gifts, Vol. 3, p.75, 1864.
I didn't see anything about Ham and Africa. I understand that as certain things have been edited out of reprints of some EGW writings it could have been in there originally, I don't know. I guess these are some of the unfortunate remnants of our church's history that may take a few more generations to disappear.
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It was not called Africa back in those days. Yep that is what I read but I knew it was truth when I read Lev. All three sons settled in different areas. and decendants carried out the same sin again as they do the same today. Then they begin to show bits and pieces of their findings of monstrous views on tv of amalgamations claiming evolution, what a joke! It would be common sense that the areas that Ham settled was the most evident.
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Di,
The reports I saw the father of MJ forced him at a very early age to perform hours and hours on end. and they were punished if they didn't. The father wanted fame and fortune and he got it at the expense of his son's soul. plain and simple. Down deep I think there was good in MJ that he never was able to express or live out. He did not know how. They also tended to be Jehova Witness and most of those to escape that brain washing need help after. It was matter of choice and the talents were used for evil. Do you realize how many people were led with this in the whole world????? He learned as a baby Di!!!
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Actually, Tinka, if you watched the movie or heard them talk, you would know that their father was quite unaware of their talents, until they showed him one day. They had been playing and singing amongst themselves. That is when he started working them to death........nearly and taking advantage of them. It was quite clear fromt he beginning that Michael had extraordinary talent, and the father exploited that until Michael(amd Janet) left his control. Now we are in complete agreement as to the damage Joe Jackson did to Michael, Janet and all his children.
...And you say that JWs brainwash their members?............LOL!!! That is a good one!
Di,
The reports I saw the father of MJ forced him at a very early age to perform hours and hours on end. and they were punished if they didn't. The father wanted fame and fortune and he got it at the expense of his son's soul. plain and simple. Down deep I think there was good in MJ that he never was able to express or live out. He did not know how. They also tended to be Jehova Witness and most of those to escape that brain washing need help after. It was matter of choice and the talents were used for evil. Do you realize how many people were led with this in the whole world????? He learned as a baby Di!!!