Advent Talk
Theology Category => Doctrinal Discussions => Topic started by: BobRyan on February 26, 2010, 05:30:46 AM
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How important is the Bible doctrine on origins, the Bible teaching of a literal 7 day creation week - to our Fundamental Beliefs - to Christianity itself?
It appears from evidence presented at the educatetruth web site that we have at least one SDA university marketing/evangelizing/pro-actively selling evolutionism (as the right doctrine on origins) to their students in both biology and religion departments.
Is this something you would consider under the guise of "Academic Freedom"?
What say you?
in Christ,
Bob
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What can we do to help?
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the Bible teaching of a literal 7 day creation week - to our Fundamental Beliefs - to Christianity itself?
in Christ,
Bob
In just my simple mind of common sense, instead of looking for the disbelief of a 7 day creation, I think I must believe first in God, His power and ability to the 3 persons in One for the application of all different works of the universe by separate Entities of God. Visible, audible and Invisible Incarnate & Omnipotent. A power and "Mystery of God" we shall never know but evidence of the unseen by faith. If we do not believe in any of this,--- it is impossible to believe in 7 day creation.
Now at the fall -Satan has not been stripped of some of this same power of visible and invisible and can still perform miracles then how can I not believe that God (creator of all) spoke and it "IS". It appears. This is the simplicity I am only allotted or want to go and am totally satisfied with. He held a day back by His power. Its in History. That is good enough for me. I do not look for any other way as some Adventist are now through their college "brightness" looking for new "theory". I love the simplicity of the "old, old,story" The heavens, the stars, and all the hosts are accounted for in His Word and in His time.
God's truth in record is never to confuse but man achieves this confusion by thinking he is given greater knowledge by scientific study. In these last days, college is hardly safe unless well grounded. but most professors are the fall now of this generation. Yes, even in our own schools. They are no longer meek but agressive to keep up with the worldly view and passing grades of "supreme intelligence". If you can't understand God and His Love the rest doesn't matter.
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The main thing to do is to keep this issue in prayer.
The second thing we can do is make sure that you go to the Educatetruth web site and be aware of the details of this almost 20 year battle for our SDA universities. LSU has recently come under the spotlight due to one of their biology professors admitting to the press that they are all in the tank for evolutionism and are flatly rejecting the Bible doctrine on origins. It goes downhill from there.
Ellen White has a very insightful statement on the critical issue of Theistic Evolutionism in 3SG 90-91 that all should be aware of -
in Christ,
Bob
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I will be going to read that again this eve to see what is implied. Sometimes it takes the whole chapter so not to read out of context or the right context.
It is so sad to see this happen when we knew that it would and with almost no stability left before the coming.
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At the EducateTruth site - a discussion thread is started to discuss two alleged LSU students who have posted their opinions of the objections Bibe believing Christians have about LSU selling out in favor of evolutionism.
Neptunnus
November 8, 2009
I’m currently a student at LSU and I know personally that a great percentage of our campus fully supports the three professors under fire, and we also DON’T like outsiders trying to influence what goes on in our classrooms. We DON’T like how ignorant Adventists who don’t have PhD’s or other reputable qualifications criticizing what professors are teaching, who actually do have the qualifications. I find banishing the theory of evolution from our curriculum a form of brain washing. Intelligent design is just not backed up by scientific evidence. In addition, religion and science are two different methods of studying life. However, when you read the Bible literally, science and religion don’t go hand in hand. But, when you interpret Scripture and dig deeper, science can actually support the Bible. Most of us students are confused to why there is such a big controversy. In our eyes, Shane Hilde seems very unqualified to be making these accusations, especially when he exploited a recent graduate of La Sierra University to his advantage. Unfortunately for him, the paper that he used to display the unfair grading of the two LSU Biology Professors turned out to be plagiarized. I would love to address the protestors who will come to our campus this Wednesday and say, “Stand if you have a Bachelors. Remain standing if you have a PhD. Stay standing if you have a PhD in a science field. The ones who are still standing are the only ones qualified enough to be here protesting, and for the ones who are qualified obviously you’re PhD doesn’t mean s—.” But, as a well-mannered University student, I choose to ignore the ignorant and the meddling group of people who claim to value high-education. I am by the way, a conservative and practicing Adventist. Learning about the theory of evolution has actually strengthened my relationship and belief in God, not weakened it.
Michael
November 10, 2009
I am also a current student at La Sierra, and neptunnus basically summed up how the LARGE majority of students here feel. These “protests” are the work of a fringe group. Quite frankly, most Adventists in the United States understand that the scientific consensus is for evolution, but the church leadership pays lip service to creationism due to conservative elements within the world church.
While we can certainly feel grieved over the way these students choose to express themselves as well as their inclination to accept evolutionist propaganda uncritically -- the bigger issue is that they appear to so clearly reflect what they are apparently being told by their mentors at LSU - and the also they report an atmosphere at LSU that is "we - vs - they" the school against Bible believing Christians -- outside the school.
Prayers are in order.
in Christ,
Bob
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At the EducateTruth site - a discussion thread is started to discuss two alleged LSU students who have posted their opinions of the objections Bibe believing Christians have about LSU selling out in favor of evolutionism.
Neptunnus
November 8, 2009
“Stand if you have a Bachelors. Remain standing if you have a PhD. Stay standing if you have a PhD in a science field. The ones who are still standing are the only ones qualified enough to be here protesting, and for the ones who are qualified obviously you’re PhD doesn’t mean s—.”
Michael
November 10, 2009
Low and behold, where have I saw that familiar tactic done before, Yes I remember at SDA graduation of high school, I went to the first one as all my children did not go to SDA high school but one. I sat in horror as awards were given to the highest intelligence down to the lowest and non graduating ones with no awards but their low grades exploited to the audience.
Sure scholarships can be announced but not in this manner. I came away heart broken for the lacking students. and that turned to anger. I am afraid all the above is the fault of SDA not following SP in what our schools were for and now the race is almost over we reap the consequences. This is exactly what I was referring to. These students are experiencing the bit of the apple as they wondered off the road into another orchard. Education from SDA gave them big ego trained at early age as they follow the higher professors planted by the top leaders. It is almost over and sifted. The Bible was not taken in faith but students were out to prove their own theories and just take certain parts to prove their own points. What made anyone think that Satan would leave out the most important area of youth training?? The schools are the prime place for demons to be. AS SDA's seek more and more worldly view and appease the public this is what you get. I am starting to see this very thing happening now on the new channel of "Hope".
Format edited by Johann
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Thank you Johann for fixing things, I click on quote and then delete the rest I do not want between the quote marks. I thought I was careful to do this but it is obvious I am not doing it right. clicking on the quote never seems to do right but again I know I am not doing it right somehow. and keep trying to find what I am doing wrong. sliding on just the sentence then cicking quote doesn't work either. Of course I have changed to mac and seem to have to learn all over.
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It appears that the Michigan Conference Executive Committee has recently taken a stand on this. Scroll down on the Michigan Conference website:
http://www.misda.org/
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The Michigan Conference has taken a remarkable step in what appears to be reasonable. It does not seem right for a Seventh-day Adventist Church organization to support an institution teaching ideas which undermine the official teachings of our Church.
Neither does it seem reasonable for an organization to use and support an institution doing lip service to our doctrines while undermining our faith with immorality behind the curtains, even if they only use the "correct" hymns and music and preach the "full" Advent message!
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How wonderful that somebody finally stood up. Even more wonderful that funds will not help that "Superior upper level Education of evolution" How much more Superior do they think they are??? So glad to read that peice of ino. Thank you.
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I personally agree with both of them. I believe that the earth is far older than six or ten thousand years, and I believe that La Sierra is teaching science as science, and I find it refreshing to see what they are doing. However, it would not be fair to ask people who don't believe that way to pay for it with their tithes and offerings, and the MI conference did the right thing in representing the will of their constituents, and La Sierra should expect that this is just the beginning.
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George,
I think I spent most of life looking at the first chapter of Genesis over and over and over. Then I followed all the references. It was not telling me exactly what for sure i wanted to know. My husband seem to go along with the theory the earth was maybe older.
finally, and I mean finally I took each word and did a hands on drawing of each in depth of each exact word and then I came to the word "firmament". Boy had I been dense. Finally the word "firmament" came into a different meaning of separating the waters or mist. I really hate to mention this to show how ignorant a person can be, but all the years of looking at that it just registered firm land, firm land and of course I could not grasp it until after my ignorance was given a jab of light that firmament meant air, an opening for a heaven and then dry land hung in the open firmament. Now I realized nothing else was there until waters separated and air for opening. Then I made a drawing of every action word and did only as it said. and then I realized The dry land was brought forth with the breath of His Word spoken. as He had to separate the waters before anything. Water was in the midst of nothing. See what you think. After the word "firmament" go down a Copley of verses and it then tells you what it actually meant. Boy was that a block because the word not so familiar and using it seemed only that it meant firm ground. The very adjective used with the word land was "dry". So that tells you again all was water or mist because he separated the waters. Water was now on top of firmament and water was below firmament. Now talk about finer details that is how many times I have to do to understand. Love the finer details. Answer is in first chapter. Now all the rest of references match perfect. Now there was not dry land in the beginning before spoken.
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Here is a statement made by the President of La Sierra University. Is there a misunderstanding?
I was saddened to read the article “Evolution Controversy Stirs La Sierra Campus” as it does not describe the campus that I know. La Sierra University continues to offer a strong curriculum designed to help students experience vibrant Adventist Christianity while coming to terms with serious issues of 21st century life and learning…
Randal Wisbey, President
La Sierra University
From the Adventist Review
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It is interesting to follow all the letters of concern about LSU at this address:
http://www.educatetruth.com/news/readers-respond-to-adventist-review-article/
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The official LSU reply to the Michigan challenge
http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2010/05/28/la_sierra_university_responds_michigan_conference_action
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It is not just the SDA church that struggles with this problem. All fundlementalist churches stuggle with it and most other churches just gloss over it. If push come to shove, they will only answer if they have to. My own answer to my son,when his teacher taught evolution was that God's days are not our days and everything is possible with God. When he went away to college to a very liberal college on a scholarship, his science professor said she believed in the Big Bang, but that God created the Big Bang and created everything after that. That was novel. My husband and I had this very discussion yesterday. My arguement against evolution is that absolutely NO ONE has seen evolution continuing since the written word has been founded. Surely if it was true, someone, somewhere would have seen it occur. Adaptation, yes, evolution,NO! Darwin only had a theory, not a FACT!!!
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This discussion sometimes reminds me of the outrage against the Nazi's and Catholics for their burning of books considered as heresy, by people who forbid the study and discussion of matters they consider heresy.
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Just followed the link...then read the "Rest of the story" by Donna H.
Just seems that there are many writers by women and men that have enormous imaginations of extended views beyond simplicity of understanding can come up with justifications of extreme persuasion to their views. I looked at the posting afterwards. Many followers love to hear conclusions of mere curiosity to their own satisfaction. It is a prime example of how important to study and let Holy Spirit direct details of the Inspired writer of Bible instead of following the professors of todays scientific intellect driven by ones own superior characteristics. The story of Mary and Martha to me does not bring out that women and man are equal in jobs as it was so insinuated. I feel --do not put into or take away theory is the best to go by.
I wish I could explain in words a little better but maybe here is something that what I call cliches in peoples thoughts that are to extreme. Not that this story I will mention is to that extreme as above but a cliche is a cliche. Man being superior in knowlege to me is a cliche or a true athiest in so called christian cloak.
Yesterday, Sunday we went to Birthday Party for great granddaughter. They live on farm land way back a lane that had several farm houses on each side of lane evidently was sold off from main farm. It is a country setting. About 4 older grandsons of 23 to 30 were passing down the lane and as we all passed in plain view a woman on a tractor doing a little plowing. Now that is what a farmer's wife can definitely do, just ask me. Then as you looked a little more a huge semi- truck set in the front yard. Well, women do drive trucks when they have to and some are good drivers although driving a semi is beyond my abilities but can operate equipment when I sometimes could help. But as we all passed and glimpsed the woman working on the tractor "shirtless" as a man-- was a "cliche". and yes another women lives there too. That was the focus point of laughter until all were worried about going back through the lane of "curiosity views" and thoughts of the-- "if the needs of the world for the 21st century are to be met" written by president of the La S. college. One statement alone within the most flowery words of justifications. I refuse to make "justifications" to comply to the Scientifically Superior Einsteins of Man's theory above God's. All that is in Bible is all that is needed for our information and Eternity and not to keep up with worldly views to make the best "challenges" or "the almighty dollar". The Scientifically EPA are wrong in many things and good in some only to use some of their Theories to take man's land by distorted science of land and animals that take precedence over man instead of man over land and animal. All of us know that is not Bibical. I guess unless a follower of the greenies and cliches. I cannot support man's theories that do not conclude the answers we have in God's explanation of all. and BTW is that how they are taught to study at La S. To compare what man has theoried to Bible or Bible to man's unsuperior theory??? I do believe that "curosity sometimes kills the cat". Man can gain medical knowlege, industery, study the heavens, and invent and destroy what God has done, but man can not create and that is God's mystery, His work, His superiority, and His Universe as he hung His sun, moon and stars and His Earth and (laugh) man tries to make money from it by teaching their "superior knowlege". I can read it all free. Our schools were to actually teach the knowlege of God, health and missionaries to spreading the word. Why is there this issue??
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This discussion sometimes reminds me of the outrage against the Nazi's and Catholics for their burning of books considered as heresy, by people who forbid the study and discussion of matters they consider heresy.
Yet no one is talking about book burning or forbidding discussion or study. What is being asked is that La Sierra, Wisbey, Greer, and the rest be true to Seventh-day Adventist principles by not teaching evolution over long ages as fact in a professedly Seventh-day Adventist institution.
No one has disputed the necessity of teaching about evolution. LSU graduates need to be equipped to refute evolution. But are Greer and his comrades making any attempt whatsoever to so equip LSU students?
One serious problem is that Randall Wisbey comes across as either a spineless politician who doesn't know how to lead in a crisis, or as an apostate who himself believes in evolution over millions of years. How else does one explain his stupid responses to all the concern, responses that do nothing to help bring to an end all the controversy? (I refer to Johann's link to Wisbey's latest response.)
Having Wisbey at the helm of LSU at a time like this is about the same as having Walt Thompson chair the 3ABN Board when the out-of-control president Danny Shelton gets caught red-handed covering up allegations of child molestation. I fail to see much difference between how Wisbey and Walt have thus far handled the two scandals.
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This discussion sometimes reminds me of the outrage against the Nazi's and Catholics for their burning of books considered as heresy, by people who forbid the study and discussion of matters they consider heresy.
Yet no one is talking about book burning or forbidding discussion or study. What is being asked is that La Sierra, Wisbey, Greer, and the rest be true to Seventh-day Adventist principles by not teaching evolution over long ages as fact in a professedly Seventh-day Adventist institution.
No one has disputed the necessity of teaching about evolution. LSU graduates need to be equipped to refute evolution. But are Greer and his comrades making any attempt whatsoever to so equip LSU students?
One serious problem is that Randall Wisbey comes across as either a spineless politician who doesn't know how to lead in a crisis, or as an apostate who himself believes in evolution over millions of years. How else does one explain his stupid responses to all the concern, responses that do nothing to help bring to an end all the controversy? (I refer to Johann's link to Wisbey's latest response.)
Having Wisbey at the helm of LSU at a time like this is about the same as having Walt Thompson chair the 3ABN Board when the out-of-control president Danny Shelton gets caught red-handed covering up allegations of child molestation. I fail to see much difference between how Wisbey and Walt have thus far handled the two scandals.
:goodpost: :goodpost:
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Is it possible that the SDA church is experiencing some evolution? For 2,000 years Christianity has been evolving, adapting to new environments, science, philosophy, and social norms.
The timing of the MI conference decision makes it quite clear that it was meant to make La Sierra a larger issue at the GC Sessions next month. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. With LSU based in the financial capitol of the denomination, and as popular as it is among SDA young people, I don't think that boycotts from poorer conferences will affect it financially, or deplete its base of students, however, it will cetainly broaden the discussion on where science and religion merges, and if it should.
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I fail to see the correlation between an alleged criminal act, and a differing viewpoint of science.
This discussion sometimes reminds me of the outrage against the Nazi's and Catholics for their burning of books considered as heresy, by people who forbid the study and discussion of matters they consider heresy.
Yet no one is talking about book burning or forbidding discussion or study. What is being asked is that La Sierra, Wisbey, Greer, and the rest be true to Seventh-day Adventist principles by not teaching evolution over long ages as fact in a professedly Seventh-day Adventist institution.
No one has disputed the necessity of teaching about evolution. LSU graduates need to be equipped to refute evolution. But are Greer and his comrades making any attempt whatsoever to so equip LSU students?
One serious problem is that Randall Wisbey comes across as either a spineless politician who doesn't know how to lead in a crisis, or as an apostate who himself believes in evolution over millions of years. How else does one explain his stupid responses to all the concern, responses that do nothing to help bring to an end all the controversy? (I refer to Johann's link to Wisbey's latest response.)
Having Wisbey at the helm of LSU at a time like this is about the same as having Walt Thompson chair the 3ABN Board when the out-of-control president Danny Shelton gets caught red-handed covering up allegations of child molestation. I fail to see much difference between how Wisbey and Walt have thus far handled the two scandals.
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I fail to see the correlation between an alleged criminal act, and a differing viewpoint of science.
The similarity I pointed out has to do with the way Wisbey and Walt have handled things.
In both cases there are personnel who have betrayed sacred trusts in a very serious manner, and in both cases Wisbey and Walt haven't done a thing to call the perpetrators to account, and/or to terminate them. In both cases, as far as can be seen, Wisbey and Walt have chosen to be part of the problem, not part of the solution.
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I fail to see why we continue to believe that if we don't discuss it, nor are aware of it, be that evolution or the prevalent homosexuality and presence of AIDS in our own churches, that it just doesn't exist. I am with George, how are we to refute evolution if we don't know what it is about. What do we counter and with what?
Personally, for me evolution has a huge problem in that in recent history, let's say since the first man walked out of the woods....LOL!!!.......no one else has made that transition. Somebody's million years should be up by now. CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, Faux...Ooops! Fox, etc. should be covering "new" men every so often.................Why did the cycle stop?
Also, I can see why folks would want another alternative than that which spawn Christianity as we know it. On a whole, we have not behaved well. Not that long after the first church, were the Crusades, and multiple popes, schicsms, selling of indulgences to serfs, etc.Then there is the modern, most visible right wing christian, that touts that God doesn't not love you and in fact at the ready with the fire button to destroy you.........unless you look, do walk talk, and live just like us..............If I didn't know God for myself, i might have to go with evolution as an explanation for the mess made of Christianity by man.
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There are so many unexplained facts whose study is unfortunately discouraged or forbidden outside the context of pre-determined conclusions, by both evolutionists and creationists. This is true of many things, not just the question of origins.
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But George, predetermined conclusions seem to be a stabilizer where to start from beginning of all things unless "predetermined" has no beginning wouldn't you say? I mean we all look for the sun in the morning, and the moon and stars at night and water and food to live, good and evil, sad and happy and air to breath.
The origions of the original predetermined conclusions are not mind boggling of total confusion in an abyss of nothing as matter exists for no reason in the human mind that was predetermined to reason.....in all things. Unexplained facts are the Mysteries of God with all else explained in the Circle of Golden Thread. We are permitted as humans to stay within human boundries. Heaven will be our school of knowlege and Mysteries of God will stay Gods as one day we will watch again the Creation of predetermination.
The knowlege of facts and forbidden facts are also predetermined. Therefore one must believe higher matter as stablizer that stablizes human reasoning beyond mass insanity or no reasoning the same as a bugs existance with no where to go and the fact that no one has created in there self superiority. Our existance was going to take on predetermined in the likeness of God for His Joy, to extend His love, for His Companions, for basically One big reason. To know how it feels to be Loved Back. Can we do it? can we reason? or are we Superior?? ;)
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I fail to see why we continue to believe that if we don't discuss it, nor are aware of it, be that evolution or the prevalent homosexuality and presence of AIDS in our own churches, that it just doesn't exist. I am with George, how are we to refute evolution if we don't know what it is about. What do we counter and with what?
Personally, for me evolution has a huge problem in that in recent history, let's say since the first man walked out of the woods....LOL!!!.......no one else has made that transition. Somebody's million years should be up by now. CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, Faux...Ooops! Fox, etc. should be covering "new" men every so often.................Why did the cycle stop?
Also, I can see why folks would want another alternative than that which spawn Christianity as we know it. On a whole, we have not behaved well. Not that long after the first church, were the Crusades, and multiple popes, schicsms, selling of indulgences to serfs, etc.Then there is the modern, most visible right wing christian, that touts that God doesn't not love you and in fact at the ready with the fire button to destroy you.........unless you look, do walk talk, and live just like us..............If I didn't know God for myself, i might have to go with evolution as an explanation for the mess made of Christianity by man.
We need to see these conflicts in the light of The Great Controversy theme. That book points out the fallacies that have hindered the work of God on earth and what remedies God has provided. I find it useful to place the conflicts and dangers in the frame of an outline of church history where we see developments in the Christian world, also after that book was written. But back to basics in general terms and round numbers:
Europe is the World of Christianity developing onto a Catholic Church, divided into the Roman and Eastern Churches. The time frame is about AD 400 to 1600 when the writings of Augustine of Hippo gradually became more important than Scripture. Even Martin Luther was an Augustinian monk.
Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and other reformers rediscovered the Bible and their reformation became important in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, England, Scotland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, and Iceland. The Bible was translated into the languages of these countries. (Even today some people pride themselves with a theory that their translation is better than all the others - another battle with evolution!)
About this time America was rediscovered and populated by people dominated by European Protestants. Today there are probably more people from these European countries in North America than in the old countries. Around 1840 the American people "gathered at the river" and revivals took place. Influenced by great revivalists the Christan people in America were more influenced by conversion than what was taking place in Europe. Thus the influx of liberal theology came much later to America than Europe.
When European scholars "discovered" errors in the Bible and new scientific knowledge seemed to oppose certain things in the Bible this influenced a number of theologians and undermined confidence in the Bible. The new discoveries of Darvin also influenced their thinking. This started in Europe.
The first World War which started in Europe in 1914 influence the thinking of theologians like Karl Barth in Switzerland. Something seemed to be lacking in the Christianity of people when they could kill each other by the thousands. Why not get back to the Bible and the teachings of the Reformers? This might save the world.
It has been said that Barth's theology was stated in the words of the hymn, "Yes, Jesus loves me. The Bible tells me so." Thus started what some term Neo-Orthodoxy. And here I feel we are getting to understand what is happening at La Sierra University. More on that below.
There are so many unexplained facts whose study is unfortunately discouraged or forbidden outside the context of pre-determined conclusions, by both evolutionists and creationists. This is true of many things, not just the question of origins.
There might be even more to it than that. As we are facing the climax of history we need to go back to basics. In the Western World and within General Christianity we are working with two sources, with two concepts of understanding life and religion: The Hebrew and the Greek. (This has nothing to do with the two languages the Bible is written in, Hebrew and Greek languages.)
The Hebrew concept - as we find in Scripture and in Creation - God blew his spirit/air into man and he became a living soul. From then on the soul is all that man is, his thoughts, his acts, his being. His body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. When the heart stops beating his spirit returns to God but becomes a soul again at the resurrection.
According to the Greek concept the soul has alway been and will always exist. The soul enters a frail human body on earth where there is a continual conflict between the evil body and the divine soul. So there is no connection as such between the body and the spiritual. The daily life and work has nothing to do with his religion.
I think the greatest problems in the world of religion lies between these two concepts. Some Christians read the Bible with the eyes of the Greek, others with the eyes of the Hebrew, and then there might be some who make a futile attempt at combining the two.
Neo-Orthodoxy has driven many people in the direction of Greek thought, although they emphasize a return to the Bible, conversion, justification. I have heard them stating that from the pulpit the preacher must preach the words of Scripture, also the stories found in the Bible, and tell them as if they really happened, because they create faith. But in the scientific lab the scientist is no longer dealing with religion, and evolution has nothing to do with faith - that is science. So in church these people might have a lot in common with us. Their sermons might contain the same message in words. The difference lies in the definition of soul and the dualistic view of man.
I have been to the home of a professor of biology at La Sierra. Lovely people who believe in Bible Creation. That was many years ago.
Reading what the present staff at La Sierra is writing I gather that they might be influenced by Neo-Orthodoxy. In their church services, Bible classes and devotions they might well be using the same spiritual material as the rest of us, be richly blessed by it, emphasize the importance of conversion and justification by faith, and yet teach that conclusions you make in the science department has nothing to do with their faith or religious beliefs. In fact I saw a statement in a syllabus of theirs indicating that what is taught might be in conflict with your belief, and that seemed all right.
Is there something we can learn from this? Are we also in a similar danger? I know that some Noe-Orthodox call us "Biblicists" - people who worship the Bible as an idol. Is there a danger on both sides if we go to extremes?
This is not a scholarly writing, only notes from my own memory and experiences. So I am stating this in general terms, like round numbers. If you want to ask questions or discuss certain items, that is OK with me.
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I fail to see why we continue to believe that if we don't discuss it, nor are aware of it, be that evolution or the prevalent homosexuality and presence of AIDS in our own churches, that it just doesn't exist. I am with George, how are we to refute evolution if we don't know what it is about. What do we counter and with what?
But that has never been the issue. The issue has always been LSU professors teaching as fact and truth the idea that life has evolved on earth over millions of years.
Donors have given money to 3ABN, which then ended up in Danny's pockets without the donors being informed that that was what was going to happen.
Parents have sent their kids to LSU, and paid rather large bills, and LSU has used that money to convince those kids that evolution over millions of years is truth, without, as far as I know, LSU informing the parents that that was what was going to happen.
So what's the difference between 3ABN's and LSU's betrayal of sacred trusts in this comparison? The difference is that LSU's betrayal is far worse because it put at risk the eternal destiny of the kids without, apparently, the parents' knowledge.
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Johann,
Your memory and experiences of historical events are quite appreciated to read to this review. I know the Mormons take that view on the soul.
Your review of history in the eye's of God sure did need 3angels message brought to light, human messenger to direct back to it, and last ditch effort for the human race as only a few from each generation carried "truth". EGW was not the only one to carry the vision. Many got the same vision but with some their superiority got in the way like the suggestions and experience that you suggested that each perceived. The finer details of visions and writings given to a small group that was responsible for the whole world on their own shoulders were the best match one could believe. Thank you again for your posts. :goodpost:
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So, your complaint is that they are teaching it as fact. In essence saying........"This is what I believe" or "you should believe". Or are they teaching creation and evolution equally, and not giving preference to either, where you believe(and righty so, to a point) that they should give preference to creation?
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Princessdi,
What they are teaching --is to give every opportunity to prove "doubt of total Creation" under the cloak of SDA and against "evidently now" what some true SDA believe yet. But. the truth of the matter is that Creation Theory in not the only thing that will be thrown to the dogs in the end. It is happening as we see it. Moderation instead of Temperance, and finally attack of the Sabbath from our own ranks. A sign of the end and the mark.
The Sealing is a settling into truth. Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their forehead's is not any seal or mark that can be seen but a setling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. (EGW).MS 173, 1902.
and that is what the sealing is all about.
total Truth not to be removed from the Word of God and so in simplicity do you think we ought to have these issues in colleges? Yep, guess so that is where Satan is mostly having his field day. Our children. So a few stand up to it!!! and Michigan is "One" !!!!!
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LOL!!! Tinka, I did get a good understanding of the difference between moderation and temperance last Sabbath in the SS class.
So, tinka you are saying that they are teaching evolution as a preference? I am asking because I don't see that teaching that it exists, and agreat many people believe it, is a problem. However, at a Christian SDA School, teaching it as a preference is problematic. I just want to get a good understanding of what is actually being taught.
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Di,
LOL, I knew you would.
I do not think they have it as a subject right out in open to take as class, surely not, I believe they are teaching the "open door" to doubt. It is only what I have gathered and you have to follow all the links and post of other places. Not even sure unless Bob or Johann can be more specific of actual fact.
The articles I read they are presenting it as Bible V. Evolution as the possibilities of Earth being here before creation and the question of millions of years as absolute.
My complaint was to show that was not so in what I posted. My simple position is that "dry land or dry matter did not appear until a "firmament was opened" after the separation of waters in the "all was void" fact of 1 chapter of Genesis. and I believe God spoke and it happened in the amount of time it says. Examples: God spoke and the waters stood still. Jesus spoke and Lazarus came back. Jesus spoke and all was healed. I believe in His power, Miracles and mystery of the One God in 3 persons. Blessed Trinity.
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Our recent volcanic activity clearly shows us in how short a time a great deal of the earth can change. All of a sudden thousands of airplanes have to stand still and wait for nature to change.
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Amazing yes, how a moment can change all things.
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Indeed it can change very quickly. In the Gulf of Mexico on the northern tip of the Yucatan Peninsula is a crater 180 kilometers across. It is the site where the Chucxulub asteroid struck. This asteroid was over 10 kilometers across, the size of a small city. It would have been travelling at a rate of around 40,000 mph upon impact. It is estimated that it sent a splash of mud and water up aproximately 70,000 feet, and a tsunami around 5,000 feet in height washed across the North American continent, while tsunamis up to 1,500 feet high struck the continents of Europe and Africa. The disturbance to the sea floor at the site of impact, and the disturbance created by the massive tsunamis would have destroyed up to half of the life in the earth's oceans, according to most estimates. The impact on the earth's crust would have resulted in massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions around the world. Global destruction and loss of much of life on earth in one day.
And if that isnt bad enough, think of the scenario resulting from the collision of the Indian sub-continent with Asia. The impact was so powerful it buckled up the edge of Asia and created the Himalayan mountain range. Earth has been through many global catastrophies that were never recorded by humans. Were humans there to witness those events? The evidence that they occured is indisputable.
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And yes Johann, vulcanism has been a big part of catastrophe on our planet. India is home to the Deccan Traps, the world's largest center of ancient vulcanism. That, along with Shiva's Crater would alone fill the atmosphere with sufficient sulphuric gases to put the earth into a deep winter for centuries. Then you look at smaller volcanoes like Toba and Yellowstone and each of those was many times larger than any volcanoes recorded in human history.
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Indeed it can change very quickly. In the Gulf of Mexico on the northern tip of the Yucatan Peninsula is a crater 180 kilometers across. It is the site where the Chucxulub asteroid struck. This asteroid was over 10 kilometers across, the size of a small city. It would have been travelling at a rate of around 40,000 mph upon impact. It is estimated that it sent a splash of mud and water up aproximately 70,000 feet, and a tsunami around 5,000 feet in height washed across the North American continent, while tsunamis up to 1,500 feet high struck the continents of Europe and Africa. The disturbance to the sea floor at the site of impact, and the disturbance created by the massive tsunamis would have destroyed up to half of the life in the earth's oceans, according to most estimates. The impact on the earth's crust would have resulted in massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions around the world. Global destruction and loss of much of life on earth in one day.
And if that isnt bad enough, think of the scenario resulting from the collision of the Indian sub-continent with Asia. The impact was so powerful it buckled up the edge of Asia and created the Himalayan mountain range. Earth has been through many global catastrophies that were never recorded by humans. Were humans there to witness those events? The evidence that they occured is indisputable.
Sounds like some of the finer details caused by the flood. but i believe I saw that scenario on History channel too.
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Isn't it AWESOME what our GOD can do? Every now and then He has to show us His power(like the Volcano in Iceland) to close the Airports to get our attention :amen:People were complaining about not being able to fly and they should have been praying that God didn't cause all the volcanoes to erupt.
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So, your complaint is that they are teaching it as fact. In essence saying........"This is what I believe" or "you should believe". Or are they teaching creation and evolution equally, and not giving preference to either, where you believe(and righty so, to a point) that they should give preference to creation?
Di, take a look at the videos at http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/biology-seminar-111a-class-videos/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/biology-seminar-111a-class-videos/). That's a class that LSU led people to believe was promoting the church's view on origins. In reality, it undermines it.
Also, see syllabi at http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/syllabi/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/syllabi/), and presentations at http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/).
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I'd say it WAS a flood. A global flood.
Indeed it can change very quickly. In the Gulf of Mexico on the northern tip of the Yucatan Peninsula is a crater 180 kilometers across. It is the site where the Chucxulub asteroid struck. This asteroid was over 10 kilometers across, the size of a small city. It would have been travelling at a rate of around 40,000 mph upon impact. It is estimated that it sent a splash of mud and water up aproximately 70,000 feet, and a tsunami around 5,000 feet in height washed across the North American continent, while tsunamis up to 1,500 feet high struck the continents of Europe and Africa. The disturbance to the sea floor at the site of impact, and the disturbance created by the massive tsunamis would have destroyed up to half of the life in the earth's oceans, according to most estimates. The impact on the earth's crust would have resulted in massive earthquakes and volcanic eruptions around the world. Global destruction and loss of much of life on earth in one day.
And if that isnt bad enough, think of the scenario resulting from the collision of the Indian sub-continent with Asia. The impact was so powerful it buckled up the edge of Asia and created the Himalayan mountain range. Earth has been through many global catastrophies that were never recorded by humans. Were humans there to witness those events? The evidence that they occured is indisputable.
Sounds like some of the finer details caused by the flood. but i believe I saw that scenario on History channel too.
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George,
and then we read that there will be disasters on land and sea, Can you just imagine this oil spill diaster?? They say they will cap it today possibly on Fox. If it fails, then up the east coast of U.S. Can you just imagine all the fish dying and floating, stinking and toxic. No boats, no transportation. Maybe this is the answer to all the 26' Pyton control in Florida. But on the serious side, I read and no that I read somewhere that all transportation will finally stop. I wish I could find that again but do not know how to word it to put it into Whites writings for it to come up. I put in travel, transportation and several others. Seems this diaster is getting pretty close to finish. If boats, can't go and planes can't fly then cars can't go and we all can't go.....yes I have too big imagination but the facts seem to be there or coming on strong.
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Thanks Bob, I will review them and let you know what I think.
So, your complaint is that they are teaching it as fact. In essence saying........"This is what I believe" or "you should believe". Or are they teaching creation and evolution equally, and not giving preference to either, where you believe(and righty so, to a point) that they should give preference to creation?
Di, take a look at the videos at http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/biology-seminar-111a-class-videos/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/biology-seminar-111a-class-videos/). That's a class that LSU led people to believe was promoting the church's view on origins. In reality, it undermines it.
Also, see syllabi at http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/syllabi/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/syllabi/), and presentations at http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/ (http://www.educatetruth.com/category/la-sierra-evidence/presentations/).
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Traveling with a passenger ship provides opportunities to get acquainted with people when they have time to talk. This is where I once met a British scientist on his way to a university in Norway from an expedition to locate and date archaeological fireplaces in the Faeroe Islands. As he was explaining the mathematical formulas and showing me reports of his work I asked him questions on various dating methods when he made a remarkable statement.
He told me frankly that science has not developed a dating method that is dependable any more than 6-7.000 years back.
I asked him the reason for this.
That is because science has no way of checking any older dates. There are no records for comparison. There is no way to be sure how conditions were when you have no way of double checking.
I was amazed at these statements by a working scientist who was using the latest equipment available to date the past. Soon after that our boat arrived at Bergen, Norway, where my family was waiting for me, and our ways parted.
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And that raises a question. If humans have been living on earth for approximately 6,000 years, and the earth and everything on it has been in existence for precisely the same period of time, and humans have been documenting things during that time, why is there no record of almost all of the the greatest catastrophes to have hit earth? Why is there no record of human coexistence with the dinosaurs?
Traveling with a passenger ship provides opportunities to get acquainted with people when they have time to talk. This is where I once met a British scientist on his way to a university in Norway from an expedition to locate and date archaeological fireplaces in the Faeroe Islands. As he was explaining the mathematical formulas and showing me reports of his work I asked him questions on various dating methods when he made a remarkable statement.
He told me frankly that science has not developed a dating method that is dependable any more than 6-7.000 years back.
I asked him the reason for this.
That is because science has no way of checking any older dates. There are no records for comparison. There is no way to be sure how conditions were when you have no way of double checking.
I was amazed at these statements by a working scientist who was using the latest equipment available to date the past. Soon after that our boat arrived at Bergen, Norway, where my family was waiting for me, and our ways parted.
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George,
There is evidence of the dinosours very clearly stated in the Bible. The evidence of the bones are the amalagamations, that Satan worked through evil man to destroy God's perfect creations.
Lev. 19:19 Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with diverse kind, ...then it goes on to mention about not messing with his created seed of the field. and they are doing still that too.
Lev 20: 15-16 and if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. and if a woman aproach unto a beast and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death: their blood shall be upon them.
So George you now have evidence of prehistoric (supposidly cave men) that is from confusion, animals (dinasours) are from confusion and they are all destroyed as Satan destroyed God's Creation of man and animal. That is why the flood. That was not put in to words in case they did it. The fact and evidence is that they did it. and it is recorded in just 2 verses. and you know George the evil is still being done.
The reason this was spoken is because this is what they were doing to the perfect creation. They had the intelligence to do it. or this command would not be in the Bible.
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I still see no reference to humans and dinosaurs coexisting, or to dinosaurs at all. As massive and dangerous as they were, it would seem reasonable to expect that there would be cave paintings, statues, art, or some descriptive reference to them, but I have never seen any.
Another question that I have is the reference to the location of Eden. As I recall, it specifies an area in Mesopotamia and even refers to currently existing rivers that bound it. We know that a flood that covers everything on earth would have to exceed 29,029 feet above sea level. Water at that depth worlwide would completely change all surface geographic features. The rush of that much water would make that change instantly, leaving no trace whatsoever. I asked this question several times in academy, as was reprimanded for it.
I am aware of the theory that dinosaurs were created by ant-deluvian scientists through the process of amalgamation.
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George,
The Garden of Eden was taken back to heaven before the flood. If you recall it was guarded by angels that no one would enter but Adam and Eve and others could visulize it from the outside.
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I still see no reference to humans and dinosaurs coexisting, or to dinosaurs at all. As massive and dangerous as they were, it would seem reasonable to expect that there would be cave paintings, statues, art, or some descriptive reference to them, but I have never seen any.
Another question that I have is the reference to the location of Eden. As I recall, it specifies an area in Mesopotamia and even refers to currently existing rivers that bound it. We know that a flood that covers everything on earth would have to exceed 29,029 feet above sea level. Water at that depth worlwide would completely change all surface geographic features. The rush of that much water would make that change instantly, leaving no trace whatsoever. I asked this question several times in academy, as was reprimanded for it.
I am aware of the theory that dinosaurs were created by ant-deluvian scientists through the process of amalgamation.
One explanation that it may have been predetermined that Satan would get no notoriety for the evil that was done. God did repent that he created man and evidently did not like to acknowledge the acts of Satan but warned against it.
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George,
The Garden of Eden was taken back to heaven before the flood. If you recall it was guarded by angels that no one would enter but Adam and Eve and others could visulize it from the outside.
However, the Bible refers to four rivers flowing out of the garden, and specifies the Euphrates, Pison, and two others that I can't seem to recall. These are all post-deluvian rivers.
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A number of parents who lose a child will give a new child the same name. Is there a possibility that new rivers retained old names? We are not told.
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Good point. I suppose there are things we simply don't know. :huh: But I have always been full of curiosity and questions, and when a conundrum like this is presented in areas of commonly accepted belief, my mind goes into overdrive. Just because everyone believes it, has never been reason enough for me to believe it too. And where there appear to be glaring discrepancies, I can't help but ask questions, but knowing that there are some questions that have no answers.
A number of parents who lose a child will give a new child the same name. Is there a possibility that new rivers retained old names? We are not told.
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In connection with our recent volcanic eruption there were several floods. Huge areas of land were flooded for a while. With huge machines men made new paths for the water to flow. This did not change the names of the rivers.
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George, We are alike with curosity, but I call mine "love the finer details". You probably have the same access but here is a tidbit I thought you might enjoy about the Garden of Eden. I am sure you probably have read it before but I was excited to read it again. Also look at almost the last sentence about "you" with the 144,000". do you take that the same as I do? That means "You "Plus the 144,000. That means a multitude as the sand of the sea or others plus the 144,000
Eden to Be Restored.--The Garden of Eden remained upon the earth long after man had become an outcast from its pleasant paths. The fallen race were long permitted to gaze upon the home of innocence, their entrance barred only by the watching angels. At the cherubim-guarded gate of Paradise the divine glory was revealed. Hither came Adam and his sons to worship God. Here they renewed their vows of obedience to that law the transgression of which had banished them from Eden. When the tide of iniquity overspread the world, and the wickedness of men determined their destruction by a flood of waters, the hand that had planted Eden withdrew it from the earth. But in the final restitution, when there shall be "a new heaven and a new earth," it is to be restored more gloriously adorned than at the beginning. {AH 539.1}
Then they that have kept God's commandments shall breathe in immortal vigor beneath the tree of life; and through unending ages the inhabitants of sinless worlds shall behold, in that garden of delight, a sample of the perfect work of God's creation, untouched by the curse of sin--a sample of what the whole earth would have become had man but fulfilled the Creator's glorious plan. {AH 539.2}
The great plan of redemption results in fully bringing back the world into God's favor. All that was lost by sin is restored. Not only man but the earth is redeemed, to be the eternal abode of the obedient. For six thousand years Satan has struggled to maintain possession of the earth. Now God's original purpose in its creation is
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accomplished. "The saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." {AH 539.3}
"The Redemption of the Purchased Possession."-- God's original purpose in the creation of the earth is fulfilled as it is made the eternal abode of the redeemed. "The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever." The time has come to which holy men have looked with longing since the flaming sword barred the first pair from Eden--the time for "the redemption of the purchased possession." The earth originally given to man as his kingdom, betrayed by him into the hands of Satan, and so long held by the mighty foe, has been brought back by the great plan of redemption. {AH 540.1}
All that was lost by the first Adam will be restored by the second. The prophet says, "O Tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto Thee shall it come, even the first dominion." And Paul points forward to the "redemption of the purchased possession." {AH 540.2}
God created the earth to be the abode of holy, happy beings. That purpose will be fulfilled when, renewed by the power of God and freed from sin and sorrow, it shall become the eternal home of the redeemed. {AH 540.3}
Adam Restored to His Eden Home.--After his expulsion from Eden Adam's life on earth was filled with sorrow. Every dying leaf, every victim of sacrifice, every blight upon the fair face of nature, every stain upon man's purity, were fresh reminders of his sin. Terrible was the agony of remorse as he beheld iniquity abounding and, in answer to his warnings, met the reproaches cast upon himself as the cause of sin. With patient humility he bore for nearly a thousand years the penalty of transgression.
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Faithfully did he repent of his sin and trust in the merits of the promised Saviour, and he died in the hope of a resurrection. The Son of God redeemed man's failure and fall; and now, through the work of the atonement, Adam is reinstated in his first dominion. {AH 540.4}
Transported with joy, he beholds the trees that were once his delight--the very trees whose fruit he himself had gathered in the days of his innocence and joy. He sees the vines that his own hands have trained, the very flowers that he once loved to care for. His mind grasps the reality of the scene; he comprehends that this is indeed Eden restored, more lovely now than when he was banished from it. The Saviour leads him to the tree of life and plucks the glorious fruit and bids him eat. He looks about him and beholds a multitude of his family redeemed, standing in the Paradise of God. Then he casts his glittering crown at the feet of Jesus and, falling upon His breast, embraces the Redeemer. He touches the golden harp, and the vaults of heaven echo the triumphant song, "Worthy, worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain, and lives again!" The family of Adam take up the strain and cast their crowns at the Saviour's feet as they bow before Him in adoration. {AH 541.1}
This reunion is witnessed by the angels who wept at the fall of Adam and rejoiced when Jesus, after His resurrection, ascended to heaven, having opened the grave for all who should believe on His name. Now they behold the work of redemption accomplished, and they unite their voices in the song of praise. {AH 541.2}
Mansions Prepared for Earth's Pilgrims.--A fear of making the future inheritance seem too material has led many to spiritualize away the very truths which lead us to look upon it as our home. Christ assured His disciples
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that He went to prepare mansions for them in the Father's house. Those who accept the teachings of God's word will not be wholly ignorant concerning the heavenly abode. . . . Human language is inadequate to describe the reward of the righteous. It will be known only to those who behold it. No finite mind can comprehend the glory of the Paradise of God. {AH 541.3}
In the Bible the inheritance of the saved is called a country. There the heavenly Shepherd leads His flock to fountains of living waters. The tree of life yields its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree are for the service of the nations. There are ever-flowing streams, clear as crystal, and beside them waving trees cast their shadows upon the paths prepared for the ransomed of the Lord. There the widespreading plains swell into hills of beauty, and the mountains of God rear their lofty summits. On those peaceful plains, beside those living streams, God's people, so long pilgrims and wanderers, shall find a home. {AH 542.1}
There are homes for the pilgrims of earth. There are robes for the righteous, with crowns of glory and palms of victory. All that has perplexed us in the providences of God will in the world to come be made plain. The things hard to be understood will then find explanation. The mysteries of grace will unfold before us. Where our finite minds discovered only confusion and broken promises, we shall see the most perfect and beautiful harmony. We shall know that infinite love ordered the experiences that seemed most trying. As we realize the tender care of Him who makes all things work together for our good, we shall rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. . . . {AH 542.2}
We are homeward bound. He who loved us so much as to die for us hath builded for us a city. The New Jerusalem is our place of rest. There will be no sadness
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in the City of God. No wail of sorrow, no dirge of crushed hopes and buried affections, will evermore be heard. Soon the garments of heaviness will be changed for the wedding garment. Soon we shall witness the coronation of our King. Those whose lives have been hidden with Christ, those who on this earth have fought the good fight of faith, will shine forth with the Redeemer's glory in the kingdom of God. {AH 542.3}
Privileges of the Redeemed.--Heaven is a good place. I long to be there and behold my lovely Jesus, who gave His life for me, and be changed into His glorious image. Oh, for language to express the glory of the bright world to come! I thirst for the living streams that make glad the city of our God. {AH 543.1}
The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, "We have lived in strict obedience to the commandments of God, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth." . . . I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, "You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God."
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{AH 543.2}