Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Johann on July 08, 2012, 06:26:15 AM
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
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This issue has been arround for many decades. Rober Leo Odem wrote a book on it which is long out of print. As I recall the title of his book is: The Lord's Day on a Round World. This issue pre-dated Samoa by many years. The issue became new in Samoa due to the recent change in the International Date Line. It was an old issue at another place on the International Date Line, to the same facts that now exist in Samoa.
Simply put. Due to the change in the International Date line, the 7th calendar day of the week in the area of Samoa is now called Sunday. As a result, the Protestants now worship on the 7th day of the week as that day is called Sunday.
The majority of SDAs have continued to worship on the 7th calendar day of the week which is called Sunday and the same day that the other Protestanst worship on. Some have objected to that and believe that they should continue to worship on the day called Saturday which is the actual 6th day of the week.
If you think that this is interesting, take a look at the Sabbath practices in Alaska.
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There is actually a similar problem in many other parts of the world since the airlines issue a different calender, which they claim is easier for them to base their operations on.
Now Sunday is the 7th day of the week on the current calender, while Saturday is the 6th day of the week. Some Sunday worshipers think it is strange that we preach we should keep the 7th day on Saturday since Sunday is the 7th day!
It is easy to understand when we show that Easter as the day of Resurrection on the first day of the week is on Sunday, then the day before must be the 6th day in the original calender.
It still remains a strange phenomena to some when some of our people have started keeping Sunday just like the Sunday keeping churches, while others accept the change and then want to keep the Sabbath according to the new calender. Wouldn't this be more in harmony with the solution as outlined by Robert Leo Odom? Why should those people be regarded as heretics by church leadership?
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Yes, the problem clearly pre-dated Samoa.
As I said, Alaska is interesting. As I understand it, SDAs in Alaska keep three differenet versions of the Sabbath.
An Interesting point: the first SDA Chruch that I attended when we moved to Coloraado had a strict member who faithfully kept one of the Alaska versions which was not the one normally kept in the Lower 48.
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While editing my previous post I received an urgent call which delayed the editing for 20 minutes. In the meantime Gregory replied to my post beforfe the editing.
I only added a question. . .
It still remains a strange phenomena to some when some of our people have started keeping Sunday just like the Sunday keeping churches, while others accept the change and then want to keep the Sabbath according to the new calender. Wouldn't this be more in harmony with the solution as outlined by Robert Leo Odom? Why should those people be regarded as heretics by church leadership?
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
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By way of interest, there are a number of websites that discuss this issue. Some are quite factual. A number question what is being done.
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Amazon is selling THE LORDS DAY ON A ROUND WORLD, by Robert Leo Odem. I recommend it. It gives a lot of information to include some unusual Sabbath observences by SDAs in some places.
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
And you wonder why people think you are a Jesuit? It is the Day not the name that defines the Sabbath. Secondly trying to confuse a person on one unrelated issue as a stepping stone to confusing people on another unrelated issue is what can I say, Jesuitest? It ain't working. It seems you have resorted to using mind control NLP to substantiate your point. There is no real issue with the Samoan issue except in your mind. It is like asking the question if God can do anything can he make a rock that he cannot move and then move it? God is not dead the bible says remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy 6 days shalt thou labor but the 7 day is the Sabbath... Again, it is an attack on the very pillars of Adventism but it will not succeed. Do you know why? Because God is not dead. ------Women ordination, Celebration movement, distortion of the Sabbath truth; none will be successful in destroying the commandments of God or shaking God's chosen people.
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.
Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.
Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
Why do you ask?
I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
For many years I was dealing with news writing. I have been in contact with many reporters "reporting" to their media the information gathered from various sources without getting any kind of official approval of their report. Such official approvals were usually the trademarks of nazi or communist regimes. I once met a young female reporter covering the same event as I was. I discovered she had fled away from a communist country because she was fed up with the exclusiveness of official reports.
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.
Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....
I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....
I asked you first.
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.
Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....
I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....
I asked you first.
You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you.
here you have two groups:
1. The majority has no problems. They have the support of
a. Their church leaders
b. They keep the same day, Sunday, together with most other churches in the area. And since they do that:
c. They will neve be persecuted for refusing to keep Sunday.
d. They have little financial problems because they have the support of all the pastors who get paind from tithe money.
e. Seemingly there will not be any problems from the General Conference.
f. It even appears like they are supported by several members of this forum.
g. A major problem for this group seems to be that more and more people leave this group and join the minority
2. The minority goup seem to have a greater awareness that they are in a difficult situation.
a. A majority of their former fellow Adventist are against them
b. The chuch leaders are against them.
c. Pastors are not allowed to preach to them, so they are dependent of lay preachers and leaders.
d. They risk financial problems because they receive less tithe and than the large group, and no finaclial support from the General Conference.
e. Even some people on truth-loving AT accuse them of herecy.
Perhaps some of you would adjust theses lists.
d. They probably meet ridicule from other Christian groups, as well as worldly people for not following the majority
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Here is the issue:
1) We as a denomination have taught that we are to keep the Sabbath which is the 7th day of the week and we believe that the Sabbath has been preserved since the time of Chirst so that we know which day is the 7th and that day in the U.S. is called Saturday.
2) Due to a change in the International Date Line, The day that had throughout history been called Saturday (English) had its name changed to Sunday. NOTE: This had previously been done in some other island areas.
3) The question now became:
a) Do we now continue to keep what has been the 7th day of the week but is now called Sunday?
b) Or do we keep the day now called Saturday but was previouslly called Friday (English)?
4) In harmony with our traditional doctrine that says the Sabbath is what has been the 7th day of week and that God has preserved since the time of Christ, the majority of SDAs continued to keep the 7th day even though it was now called Sunday and became the day that most Protestants worshiped on.
5) A minoritiy said No! The 7th day is not important. What is important is to worship on a day that is different from what the other Protestants worship on.
Well, as an interesting point: In the U.S. some Protestants are having worship services on Saturday. And, in my area, the Roman Catholic Chruch officially has Mass on Saturday that the Bishop has stated fulfills their obligation to go to Mass on Sunday.
Maybe we Adventists should switch our services to Friday? No! the Islamics worship on that day. How can we find a day to keep that is kept by no one else?
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Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.
Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....
I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....
I asked you first.
You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you.
here you have two groups:
1. The majority has no problems. They have the support of
a. Their church leaders
b. They keep the same day, Sunday, together with most other churches in the area. And since they do that:
c. They will neve be persecuted for refusing to keep Sunday.
d. They have little financial problems because they have the support of all the pastors who get paind from tithe money.
e. Seemingly there will not be any problems from the General Conference.
f. It even appears like they are supported by several members of this forum.
g. A major problem for this group seems to be that more and more people leave this group and join the minority
2. The minority goup seem to have a greater awareness that they are in a difficult situation.
a. A majority of their former fellow Adventist are against them
b. The chuch leaders are against them.
c. Pastors are not allowed to preach to them, so they are dependent of lay preachers and leaders.
d. They risk financial problems because they receive less tithe and than the large group, and no finaclial support from the General Conference.
e. Even some people on truth-loving AT accuse them of herecy.
Perhaps some of you would adjust theses lists.
d. They probably meet ridicule from other Christian groups, as well as worldly people for not following the majority
Johann,
You wrote: "You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you."
Is that it? Is that your response to my question as to whether the question is cultural or astronomical? Because, you see, that's what I asked you. So, now I'm supposed to decide for myself what it is that you believe? That's classic. I ask you a question and your response is no response but rather let me guess at it. Okay, here goes:
Obviously you feel that the Sabbath is determined by purely social constructs since you made no mention of astronomical dicta. I now hereby infer that all of your theology is experience-driven, much like a dateline that meanders and strays about according to the whims of the belief du jour.
Would you say that encapsulates what you believe about the Sabbath dateline?
OR
Did you catch yourself in a nonsequitur when trying to answer me? Figures....
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Here is the issue:
1) We as a denomination have taught that we are to keep the Sabbath which is the 7th day of the week and we believe that the Sabbath has been preserved since the time of Chirst ..........
......
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4) In harmony with our traditional doctrine that says the Sabbath is what has been the 7th day of week and that God has preserved since the time of Christ, the majority of SDAs continued to keep the 7th day even though it was now called Sunday and became the day that most Protestants worshiped on.
Gregory,
Did the Sabbath exist before the time of Christ?
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YEs, the SAbbath exissted prior to Christ, as you well know.
I stand by my statement that we have taught that the sabbath has been preserved since the time of Christ.
NOTE: I did not say that the Sabbath was lost prior to Christ.
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In simplified terms, this is how the change occured in Samoa and in other places:
Bedtty goes to bed at 9 P.M. on Friday, July 6. The next morning she awakens and it is Sunday and all of her Baptist friends are off to Chruch.
NOTE: I do not know the day of the week that the dhange took place. IT could have been on Wednesday, or any other day ofthe week. Also, I do not know the calenadare date of the Sunday in my illustration. It could have been July 7 or July 8.
I am just illustrating how it took place.
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In simplified terms, this is how the change occured in Samoa and in other places:
Bedtty goes to bed at 9 P.M. on Friday, July 6. The next morning she awakens and it is Sunday and all of her Baptist friends are off to Chruch.
NOTE: I do not know the day of the week that the dhange took place. IT could have been on Wednesday, or any other day ofthe week. Also, I do not know the calenadare date of the Sunday in my illustration. It could have been July 7 or July 8.
I am just illustrating how it took place.
So, the point is? What would happen if tomorrow the seventh day received the name Sunday and everyone started going on Sunday? Well, praise the Lord for we would all be Sabbath Worshippers and that would be great. The fact that the name change occurred does not detract from the day since it would still be the 7Th day Sabbath. And if everyone kept the sabbath it would not impact the fact that God has a role for women and men which differ but are of equal importance in the plan of salvation. I stand by my initial contention that the topic started is done so to cause confusion and shake the foundation of some church members. However, as stated before God is not dead and the Sabbath is the Lords and he can preserve it. ----I spent 6 years in the military with nuclear bombs being transported and I can tell you that God is the one that prevents mishaps from happening. We have to understand that God is alive and we are not left to ourselves without Gods active intervention.
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Here is the issue:
1) We as a denomination have taught that we are to keep the Sabbath which is the 7th day of the week and we believe that the Sabbath has been preserved since the time of Chirst ..........
......
....
4) In harmony with our traditional doctrine that says the Sabbath is what has been the 7th day of week and that God has preserved since the time of Christ, the majority of SDAs continued to keep the 7th day even though it was now called Sunday and became the day that most Protestants worshiped on.
Gregory,
Did the Sabbath exist before the time of Christ?
Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.
The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
A private source dealing with the local people
We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.
Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....
I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....
I asked you first.
You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you.
here you have two groups:
1. The majority has no problems. They have the support of
a. Their church leaders
b. They keep the same day, Sunday, together with most other churches in the area. And since they do that:
c. They will neve be persecuted for refusing to keep Sunday.
d. They have little financial problems because they have the support of all the pastors who get paind from tithe money.
e. Seemingly there will not be any problems from the General Conference.
f. It even appears like they are supported by several members of this forum.
g. A major problem for this group seems to be that more and more people leave this group and join the minority
2. The minority goup seem to have a greater awareness that they are in a difficult situation.
a. A majority of their former fellow Adventist are against them
b. The chuch leaders are against them.
c. Pastors are not allowed to preach to them, so they are dependent of lay preachers and leaders.
d. They risk financial problems because they receive less tithe and than the large group, and no finaclial support from the General Conference.
e. Even some people on truth-loving AT accuse them of herecy.
Perhaps some of you would adjust theses lists.
d. They probably meet ridicule from other Christian groups, as well as worldly people for not following the majority
Johann,
You wrote: "You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you."
Is that it? Is that your response to my question as to whether the question is cultural or astronomical? Because, you see, that's what I asked you. So, now I'm supposed to decide for myself what it is that you believe? That's classic. I ask you a question and your response is no response but rather let me guess at it. Okay, here goes:
Obviously you feel that the Sabbath is determined by purely social constructs since you made no mention of astronomical dicta. I now hereby infer that all of your theology is experience-driven, much like a dateline that meanders and strays about according to the whims of the belief du jour.
Would you say that encapsulates what you believe about the Sabbath dateline?
OR
Did you catch yourself in a nonsequitur when trying to answer me? Figures....
Not at all. I am only trying to present the problem as it applies to the Samoans to see if there is anyone here who has the right arguments to help them in their dilemma. Especially since it appears like the General Conference does not have a theological answer.
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Christian:
So, the point is? What would happen if tomorrow the seventh day received the name Sunday and everyone started going on Sunday? Well, praise the Lord for we would all be Sabbath Worshippers and that would be great. The fact that the name change occurred does not detract from the day since it would still be the 7Th day Sabbath.
You are correct. That is what has happened with these International Date Line issues. The majority in these areas has chosen to worship on the day called Sunday because they believe that the day called Sunday is actualy the 7th day of the week--the Sabbath.
The minority beleives that we ought to worship on the day prior to the day that other christians worship.
On the question of Sabbath observance, I find some interesting questions/issues raised by those who live in Alaska (for the U.S.). the issue is what time does the Sababath beginS? There are basicly three (3) views:
1) The Sabbath begins & ends at sundown, local time--the majority view world wide.
2) The Sabbath begins and ends at 6 P.M., local time--a minority view that was held by Adventists early in our history.
3) The Sabbath begins and ends, world-wide, at sundown in Jersulam, Israel--clearly a minority view.
There are some Adventists, who live near, or above the Artic Circle, who hold view # 2. View # 3 is held by some who are more on the fringe of Adventism.
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And, in my area, the Roman Catholic Chruch officially has Mass on Saturday that the Bishop has stated fulfills their obligation to go to Mass on Sunday.
This may be true, but it is misleading, according to a book by a Catholic priest entitled What Else Would You Like to Know About the Church?
The obligation to go to the idolatrous sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday can be met by going on Saturday evening since supposedly that was the custom in the early church. I think this explanation must be a reference to the Saturday night service in Acts 20:7.
Thus, permitting the obligation to be met on Saturday only applies if one goes on Saturday evening, not on Saturday morning, according to that book. And thus what is being sanctioned is the ushering in of Sunday as the 6th day of the week draws to a close!
Incidentally, the book points out that the permitting of the obligation to be met on Saturday is an ecumenical move toward Seventh-day Adventists, but the book says that Rome cannot compromise with the Adventists and that's as far as they are going to go.
Pretty stubborn.
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Bob, the Metro Area Catholic Masses that are conducted on Saturday have nothing to do with reaching out to Sabbath keepers. In this area there are litterly dozens of such that are aconducted between 4 PM and 6 PM, which are well before Sundown on Saturday. Yes, there are some conducted later than 6 PM and after Sundown.
Regardless of what you might read in some bookl, The appropriate Bishop can authorize Catholice to fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending a Mass on Saturday.
That appropriate Bishop in the Metro Area has done so. The reason is twokfold:
1) Roman Catholic priests are normall restricted in the number of Masses that they can celebrate on one day.
2) In the Metro Area there are more Catholics who want to attend Sunday Mass than the Chruch can accomodate.
3) Therefore, the appropriate Bishop has quthorized them to fulfill their obligation by attending Mass on Saturday. Yes, that can be after Sundown on the Biblical Sunday. Or it can be prior to Sundown on the Biblical Sabbath.
No, this is not the Roman Catholic Church moving away from Sunday to Sabbath observance.
Also note: In the strictest sense, the Roman Catholic obligation to attend Mass is once a Year, at Easter time.
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I think, Gregory, that you have in part confirmed what I said. Between 4 and 6 pm on Saturday would be ushering in Sunday regardless of the time of year.
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I understand the GC Adventist Research Institute came to the conclusion after years of study that Sunday would be the correct day of worship for the local 9.000 Adventists there in Samoa because that was the day previously called Saturday on the old calendar.
A minority dissident group insists on keeping Sabbath according to the new calendar to show they are not keeping the Roman Catholic Sunday. Some of them claim that Samoan churches in the United States and Australia and New Zealand are among their supporters.
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I believe that the issue in Samoa is a recent one due to the fact that the change in the Date Line, as it affected Samoa, was a recent one.
For other islands located along the Date Line, there change was decades ago and the issue was well discussed then. Again, as I recall, see: Odom, Robert L. "The Lord's Day on a Round World."
I do not think that it took years of study to come to that conclusion. The issue is quite straight forward:
1) Does the Biblical command ask us to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day of the week.
or
2) Does the Biblical command ask us to keep the Sabbath on the day prior to the day that most Protestants keep.
That is the issue. In the islands along the Date Line where this is an issue there was a day that throughout civilized time had been called (in English) Saturday. Then a change was made and that day had its name changed (in English) to Sunday. So, since the day called Sunday (in English) is now the 7th day of the weekly cycle, do we continue to keep that day, or do we move to the day now called Saturday, which used to be called (in English) Friday?
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A rose by any other name is still a rose.
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Hi, I'm rather new on this forum and had an interesting experience.
There is a test question when a person registers.
What day is the bible Sabbath?
I answered -- "the seventh day"
Wrong answer flashes in red letters.
I typed "Saturday" -- RIGHT ANSWER!
You see -- I think THEY were right. When we start saying "seventh day" we are moving into the general interpretation we hear all the time. But when we say "Saturday" it is specified which seventh day is the Sabbath.
Was there really a calendar change in Samoa?
No - it's the same as before! July 30, 2012 is still Monday. As it is everywhere else.
Were the days renamed?
No -- they still have the same names as before.
So what changed?
Well think of it this way.
When a person travels from America to Australia, they cross the dateline.
A Pastor may fly from America to Australia on Thursday, and GO TO CHURCH the very next day which is Saturday!
In the same way Samoa crossed the dateline on Thursday, midnight Dec. 30, so the very next day was Saturday!
You won't find 180th longitude anywhere in scripture. It is only a man made estimate and was not in existance prior to 1884. And even in 1884 no "law" was made concerning 180 longitude as the dateline. Greenwich England was chosen as the Prime Meridian while the "dateline" was left to be determined by the governments of the Islands in the Pacific.
I do NOT understand the justification given for Seventh-day Adventists to worship on Sunday, my sympathies are totally with our Samoan brothers and sisters who have found themselves out of favor with the Regional Seventh-day Adventist Church for keeping Sabbath/Saturday along with their New Zealand and Australian brethren.
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The 4th Commandment tells us that the Sabbath is the 7th Day. It does not say Saturday.
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Quote by Gregory: The 4th Commandment tells us that the Sabbath is the 7th Day. It does not say Saturday.
So does that mean I can keep every Monday since they are all seven days apart?
Or how about every Friday?
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When did the Christian world celebrate Easter Resurrection Day?
Wasn't it on Sunday, April 8? Yes, even in Samoa!
Doesn't scripture tell us that Christ rested on the Sabbath, and early on the first day of the week He arose?
He rested on Sabbath, (the seventh day) and rose on Sunday (the first day).
Sunday is the known as the "resurrection day" all around the world, even in Samoa!
The seventh-day Sabbath is the day BEFORE Sunday.
You see -- the language being used is miss leading.
Was there really a calendar change in Samoa?
No - it's the same as before! The calendar did not change. July 30, 2012 is still Monday. As it is everywhere else.
Were the days renamed?
No -- they still have the same names as before.
And Adventists in Samoa have accepted that they are now the first to welcome every new day (instead of the last) on the round earth -- why not accept that for the seventh-day Sabbath which is known in the english language as "Saturday".
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Welcome to the Advent Talk forum, Ulicia, and thanks for your comments on the seventh-day Sabbath.
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Thank-you for the welcome!
I've become quite interested in this situation in Samoa over the last few months.
The problem all started just over 100 years ago with the Tonga islands.
Prior to 1884 the Islands simply accepted the week which was brought to them by the missionaries.
Since all the first missionaries (Methodists and London Missionary Society) arrived by traveling via Australia, they were all in line with Australia as to what day it was.
When the first adventist visitors arrived they of course were on the American (tail end of each day) and they thought everyone on the Islands were keeping the right day but calling it "sunday". BUT NO -- those Methodist and London Missionary Society and Catholic missionaries were NOT keeping the "right" Sabbath. They were keeping Sunday!
The confusion mounted as it was in October of 1884 that Greenwich England was declared the "Prime Meridian" by an International conference in Washington DC, even though no official 180th meridian dateline was established. Yet, a quick calculation showed that the 180th longitude is half way around the world from Greenwich England. So pressure was on to make it the dateline.
In 1892 Samoa accepted the American pressure and moved into the western hemisphere. (The first Adventist Missionaries arrived shortly after that).
Tonga however, resisted, they refused to change and remained in the eastern hemisphere. Now we can excuse the early Adventists (though I still think it was a big mistake) who probably thought Tonga would change just as Samoa had done, so they worshipped on Sunday -- thinking it would soon be acknowledged as Saturday.
But Tonga decided to stay right where they were -- in line with New Zealand and Australia. At that point (in my opinion) Adventists should have realized their mistake.
But now Tonga is taken as a precedent as if the 180th were a divinely ordained creation event. it's not! It's a man made estimate -- and nothing more. But since then as Island governments realize they really belong with the Australia/New Zealand group, and have changed back to being the "start of each new day" rather than the "tail of each day", Adventist leadership in these areas have instituted SUNDAY WORSHIP!
An interesting article shows the General Conference has NEVER endorsed Sunday worship in these Islands.
No Endorsement Given To Samoa Church for Sunday Worship (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1207/S00685/no-endorsement-given-to-samoa-church-for-sunday-worship.htm)
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I agree it's a confusing situation.
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Actually it's quite simple.
When EGW went to Australia, she didn't say
"Oh no, it's only six days since my last Sabbath, I can't keep Saturday as the Sabbath."
No, she kept the seventh day as reckoned in Australia.
Samoa's seventh day lines up with New Zealand and Australia -- and it's still called Saturday.
EGW's counsel, while not directly addressed to Tonga, still holds the principle
to be followed. Some zealous person was teaching the Biblical dateline was in Arminea and thus a lot of people were keeping the wrong day and should be keeping Sunday as it was the "real" seventh day.
She wrote:
"We are not to give the least credence to the day line theory. It is a snare of
Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly
impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday,
and God's remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make
all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know
where we stand. . . . {3SM 318.4}
So any "dateline theory" that claims the people are all right in keeping Sunday
and God's remnant people are all wrong for observing the Sabbath on Saturday, is
a snare of Satan.
But that is exactly what took place in Tonga!
A "dateline theory" was taught that said everyone was keeping the right day on
Sunday.
And now in Samoa the same thing is happening
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Was Ellen White's comment about the "day line theory" referring to the same thing as the "dateline theory"?
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Was Ellen White's comment about the "day line theory" referring to the same thing as the "dateline theory"?
That depends on what a person understands as THE "dateline theory".
It's a scientific fact that somewhere between the western coast of America and the eastern coast of Asia each new day begins and ends thus causing a person to either add a day or subtract a day depending which way they are traveling across the pacific.
The "theory" part comes from trying to determine exactly where that point is.
But for a simple answer -- yes, Adventist pioneers seemed to use the word "dayline" in the same way as we understand the term "dateline".
The "dateline theory" that was causing confusion among some in Adventism at the beginning of the 20th century was this:
The Eden Day-Line Theory (Source The Bible Echo, January 28, 1901)
"The theory is that where Eden was, that marks the place of the true day-line. Every new day should begin there; westward from this point the reckoning should be twenty-four hours in advance of that immediately eastward."
If this were actually true, it would mean that from the beginning of the human race there would have been a day difference between those living immediately east of Eden and those living immediately west of Eden. Yet we read of no such thing in scripture or history. What's even worse the theorists were advocating that all Adventists living east of the Middle East (Russia, China, India, Australia, Japan etc) should worship on Sunday since the standard time reckoning had placed them on the wrong side of the dateline.
So yes, it was very similar to the situation in Tonga and Samoa, though it was on a much BIGGER scale.
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When I was in college I ran into Evangeline Widen who had a different sort of theory. She taught that everyone everywhere should keep the Sabbath from 6pm to 6pm, Jerusalem time. No matter who she was staying with, as soon as 6pm Jerusalem time came, she'd go do her laundry with the excuse that she didn't have many clothes, which was kind of rude to her Adventist hosts. But doing her laundry was a way that she made her point each week, sort of imposing her standard upon those she stayed with.
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The various commenets made here reflect the diversity that exists within the SDA Church in regard to the actiual time to kep the Sabbath.
When I first moved to Colorado, I attended a church that had one active family that kept the Sabbath from 6 PM to 6 PM.
There are people who live above or near the Artic Circle who keep it from 6 PM to 6 PM.
Yes, some keep it by an astronomical sunrise and sunset which ends up with 24 hours of darkness and 24 hours of light on some days. This also ends up with sundown and sun rise at noon & midnight on some days. Imagine keeping the Sabbath f rom Noon to Noon.
There are some who advocate keeping it by Jersulam time.
The issue is that each new day has to begin somewhere. Humans has established that point as the so-called International Date Line. The problems then arose when in certain Pacific Islands the Date Line did not follow a straight line. It curved inward (outward to some).
Check out the curvature of the IDL on a map of the world. This may help to understand.
The 4th Commandment tells us to keep the 7th day--not a 7th day, but the 7th day. The history of the Jewish peole can trace that 7th day from the time of Christ to the present. So, we should be clear as to what is the 7th day as understood in the time of Christ.
The problem occurs n that due to the curvature of the International Date Line, that 7th day is a few of the Pacific Islands is now called Sunday. It is no longer called Saturday (in English).
So, here we have it. Honest people who want to follow the Lord have differign understandings. They keep theSabbath with different beginnings and endings. I say, let the Lord lead and God will honor their attempts to do what God has asked them to do.
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When I was in college I ran into Evangeline Widen who had a different sort of theory. She taught that everyone everywhere should keep the Sabbath from 6pm to 6pm, Jerusalem time. No matter who she was staying with, as soon as 6pm Jerusalem time came, she'd go do her laundry with the excuse that she didn't have many clothes, which was kind of rude to her Adventist hosts. But doing her laundry was a way that she made her point each week, sort of imposing her standard upon those she stayed with.
This idea is not scriptural. The time when Sabbath begins was established on a scriptural bases and diversity only shows that people are setting up their own times instead of God's time.
The Bible directs that, "from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbaths" (Lev. 23:32); and then defines the evening to be at the setting of the sun (Mark 1:32)
The Bible day is measured from evening to evening-sundown to sundown; this is supported by Jewish history, while the days as named are measured from midnight to midnight. Therefore strictly and technically speaking the seventh day begins Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday evening at sunset.
There is no confusion as to which day is the seventh-day Sabbath.
The issue in Samoa is not a "personal" issue. (I agree that individuals should have freedom to worship as conscience directs--that's freedom of religion) But this is an issue of the regional Seventh-day Adventist Church leadership in a verily large area in this world imposing Sunday worship.
Whether the dateline is straight or zig zags through the Pacific is not the issue. There is no Biblical proof whatsoever that England is the center of God's earth (Prime Meridian) thus making the 180th a dateline. None what-so-ever!
There is no excuse for Seventh-day Adventists to impose Sunday worship in these Islands.
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Our former president,, Jan Paulsen, came from North Norway. I recall him telling that in mid winter they'd take working clothes along to church, and if the Sabbath Sermon lasted too long they'd have to leave for work before it was finished. There they kept Sabbath in winter from the time the sun would have been at the lowest point, if it had been visible, around Friday noon to Saturday noon. I summer it would be form midnight to midnight, just like the calender.
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Ulicia, you are correct in much of what you say.
Your error comes in your understanding what what the change in the IDL did. When that change took place, the day that previously had been named Saturday (English) now was named Sunday (English).
Again, the 4th Commandment does not say "a 7th day." It says "the 7th day." By that reconning, in the areas under consideration, that 7th day is now named Sunday (English).
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Ulicia: I agree with your comments as to the Sabbath beginnig at even (sundown). On the assumption that you believe that it is sundown local time, I would agree with you.
However, as you have clearly stated, the IDL is of human origin. It is on that basis that some will tell you that the Sabbath begins at sundown in Jersulam and others will say at 6 PM, which would be measusred at the equator.
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When I was in college I ran into Evangeline Widen who had a different sort of theory. She taught that everyone everywhere should keep the Sabbath from 6pm to 6pm, Jerusalem time. No matter who she was staying with, as soon as 6pm Jerusalem time came, she'd go do her laundry with the excuse that she didn't have many clothes, which was kind of rude to her Adventist hosts. But doing her laundry was a way that she made her point each week, sort of imposing her standard upon those she stayed with.
This idea is not scriptural.
Correct.
The various commenets made here reflect the diversity that exists within the SDA Church in regard to the actiual time to kep the Sabbath.
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So, here we have it. Honest people who want to follow the Lord have differign understandings.
It's not that simple, I don't think. Evangeline was purposely being insensitive to the convictions of those who provided her a place to stay. And when we discussed the pretty much single text that she based her false theory upon, she was unable to show from the Bible that the text really meant what she said it meant. (The details are murky this many years later.)
Your error comes in your understanding what what the change in the IDL did. When that change took place, the day that previously had been named Saturday (English) now was named Sunday (English).
Again, the 4th Commandment does not say "a 7th day." It says "the 7th day." By that reconning, in the areas under consideration, that 7th day is now named Sunday (English).
Whether or not she made an error depends on how one defines what the 7th day is. Have you defined it in such a definitive way that it can truly be said that Ulicia erred?
I think J. N. Andrews' explanation is pretty helpful. God appointed the sun to rule the day. It is the sun that determines which day is which. The only question to deal with is what about where the beginning and the ending of each day meets.
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Ulicia, you are correct in much of what you say.
Your error comes in your understanding what what the change in the IDL did. When that change took place, the day that previously had been named Saturday (English) now was named Sunday (English).
I fully realize Samoa moved across the dateline. The error is in the Adventist leadership in the area refusing to acknowledge that it was a legitimate move. They have accepted the move for the rest of the days, and now essentially have two Fridays and no Sundays in their self imposed calendar.
--Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Preparation Day(Saturday), Sabbath (Sunday)--
As to the 180th longitude -- it was never official declared THE dateline by which the Islands were to align themselves, the only thing that was determined by the International Meridian Conference in 1884 was that Greenwhich, England was the Prime Meridian; the Pacific Islands were free to align themselves with the countries they had most to do with.
When Samoa switched to the American side in 1892 they did it on the fourth of July -- in honor of America -- they had two 4th of July's that year . So it's pretty obvious where the influence for the move came from.
So, Samoa simply moved back to their position before the human shift 110 years ago, when Sunday was on the exact same day for them as it is now.
Tonga never did change sides in regards to the dateline. They were on the Australian side prior to 1884 and they remained consistently on the Australian side all along, yet still the Adventists chose to worship on Sunday.
Of course Tonga had/has a rather strict Sunday law which made it very convenient to rationalize the 180th longitude as a reason to worship on Sunday.
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I think J. N. Andrews' explanation is pretty helpful. God appointed the sun to rule the day. It is the sun that determines which day is which. The only question to deal with is what about where the beginning and the ending of each day meets.
J.N.Andrews wrote quite a bit on the dateline.
http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/pioneer_answers/dateline_Andrews.html
Basically he concludes that the dateline should run through the Bering Straits, which would place it at about 173W longitude. His suggestion for the position of the dateline places Tonga and Samoa on the Australian side.
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This was written in the Signs of the Times Magazine Nov. 26, 1906
Addressing the dayline controversy
"It will be seen that, under an apparent stickling for a conscientious exactness as to the true day, the enemy cleverly changes the issue of the question involved in the last message, from being one of worship and loyalty to God, or obedience to and worship of the church of Rome, under the symbol of the beast and his image, to that of a merely technical question of exactness, involving no principle of choice between two rival powers, and totally eliminating the Romish element, and of conflict with the beast and his image, which is the very essence of the prophetic warning. It completely changes the purport, scope, and nature of the last movement of the closing reform from a grand principle, and narrows it down to a technical quibble under the guise of a conscientious scruple for the honour of God....
"In this last great closing’ movement the issue is clear-cut—the beast and his image or the commandments of God. All that needs to be decided in any locality is, Which day does Rome honour as a sabbath? The answer is invariably, ” Sunday.” Then, in order to embrace the third angel’s message, loyalty to God calls upon us to keep the day which precedes the Roman festival, that is, Saturday. The question of exactness as to the place of the beginning and ending of the first day is a totally distinct question which has never been raised by divine authority nor introduced by Scripture. The present condition of things concerning the days of the week is accepted and recognised by all properly constituted authorities, and under this condition of affairs the issue can be clearly ascertained and decided, which is, God or Rome?” “first day or seventh day?” Keep the day immediately preceding that one which Rome honours, and you are safe in this matter."
By T. Whittle
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At least this seems to be a serious matter to many of our fellow believers, who feel as if the General Conference will not listen to their appeals.
Do you have a good suggestion of how this matter could be solved?
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The General Conference has stated that it has never endorsed Sunday worship in the Pacific Islands.
See this report (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO1207/S00685/no-endorsement-given-to-samoa-church-for-sunday-worship.htm)
Many of the Islanders, who are keeping the Sabbath on Saturday in spite of being oustersized from the church, as well as other Samoans living elsewhere, sent a letter to the president of the GC pleading for intervention.
Samoan news (http://www.samoanews.com/?q=node/6496)
The issue was sent back, by the president, to the South Pacific Division to look into it more fully. Today is THE day when they are meeting to readdress the issues.
We are waiting with baited breath as to the outcome.
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Even though the results of the Aug. 2 meeting haven't been announced there is little hope that change was made. The members were basically the same ones that first instituted Sunday with little representation from the people who support that the Sabbath is still on Saturday, ( August 4,11,18,25, 2012 etc) They have come out with more "papers" talking about "the calendar changed" (which didn't happen) and about renaming of days (which never took place) and using the 180th meridian (a fairly recent idea only 120 years old) as the ultimate foundation for the Sabbath (the 180th isn't recognized in scripture or even by governments as the ultimate determiner of the day), and quoting scripture as if Sunday were the seventh day.
The call for unity is made as if worship on Sunday is a unifying element in the Seventh-day Adventist Church!!!
As you may realize my personal reaction is shock that a segment of Seventh-day Adventism would advocate Sunday worship.
To me it sounds like a foretaste of the end time crises we have all been warned against when scripture says the spirits of devils go forth to deceive the whole world and people will be separated into those who keep the commandments of God and worship the Creator who made heaven and earth (Rev. 14:7,12), and those who don't keep those commandments and worship the beast.
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Quoting from another thread:
"An entire Union has now gone on record in opposition to the World Church's General Conference in Session and revolted against a world church policy, a biblical standard and the NAD working policy."
The above concerns a different issue, but the same thing has happened in the Pacific Islands, only this time it's on a fundamental, established PILLAR of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual is a voted document of the Church that the General Conference in Session votes on and amends every five years. It is the official document of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, which clearly states which day is the Sabbath.
Church Manual Revised 2010 (18th Edition), p. 138. “The Sabbath holds a special place in our lives. The seventh day of the week, from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday (Lev. 23:32), is a gift from God, a sign of His grace in time.”
In addition to the Church Manual is Seventh-day Adventists Believe (An exposition of the fundamental beliefs of the SDA Church), 2005 Edition, pp. 296, 297 state: “The Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday evening and ends at sunset Saturday evening (see Gen 3:15; cf. Mark 1:32). Scripture calls the day before the Sabbath (Friday) the preparation day (Mark 15:42) – a day to prepare for the Sabbath so that nothing will spoil its sacredness. Similarly, they should mark its close by uniting in worship towards the close of the Sabbath on Saturday evening, requesting God’s presence and guidance through the ensuring week.”
And remember -- August 4 will be Saturday on BOTH sides of the legally recognized dateline. August 5, Sunday is NOT recognized as the Sabbath by the official Seventh-day Adventist Church as voted by the General Conference in session.
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I share your concern. Please keep us posted on how the meeting turned out.
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Ulicia, August 4, 2012 will be Saturday on eitehr side of the International DateLine anyplace int eh world.
Let us imagine that oen could stant astride the IDL, with one foot on one side and the other foot ont he other side. In this case, the right foot might be standing on Saturday August 4 and the left foot would be standing on Sunday, August 4. That is the way that the IDL works.Now let us imagine that while you are standing with one foot on saturday the 4th and the other foot on Sunday the 5th, Someone said: Let us move the IDL.
That move now takes place, and both feet are now standing on Sunday the 5th. The right foot speaks and says: I was standing on Saturday. You now call this day Sunday. This day that you now call Sunday is the 7th day of my week. The Bible says worship on the 7th day. I will continue to worship on the 7th day, even though you now call the 7th day, Sunday.
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Ulicia, August 4, 2012 will be Saturday on eitehr side of the International DateLine anyplace int eh world.
Let us imagine that oen could stant astride the IDL, with one foot on one side and the other foot ont he other side. In this case, the right foot might be standing on Saturday August 4 and the left foot would be standing on Sunday, August 4. That is the way that the IDL works.Now let us imagine that while you are standing with one foot on saturday the 4th and the other foot on Sunday the 5th, Someone said: Let us move the IDL.
That move now takes place, and both feet are now standing on Sunday the 5th. The right foot speaks and says: I was standing on Saturday. You now call this day Sunday. This day that you now call Sunday is the 7th day of my week. The Bible says worship on the 7th day. I will continue to worship on the 7th day, even though you now call the 7th day, Sunday.
That is incorrect. If you were standing astride the international dateline, one foot would be Saturday Aug. 4th the other would be Sunday, August 5.
The names and calendar dates DO NOT CHANGE. That somehow August 4th is now Sunday is the misconception that is being implied by the Sunday keepers in their claim that the calendar changed. It is not reality or scientific.
August 4th this year is Saturday, the seventh day of the week, all around the world.
Also the IDL does not cross land for a reason -- it would be mass confusion, that's why it zigzags.
Were you to fly to Australia (from America) next Thursday, would you refuse to go to church with Australian SDA's the next day (Saturday in Australia) because the next day is your Friday back in America-- would you go to church on Sunday because it is the seventh day of YOUR week?
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You are correct. I made a typo of veryserious nature when I said each foot woudl be on August the 4th. I knew better. I simply did not catch it. Thank you for your correction. You are correct.
Yes, as I stated, August 4, is Saturday everywhere in the world, that uses English names.
I am deeply red in the face for the major typo that you caught and I did not. My typo goes against everything that I have been saying.
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Sorry, I see now that later you did say it was Sunday August 5
I also added a sentence while you were typing.
"Were you to fly to Australia (from America) next Thursday, would you refuse to go to church with Australian SDA's the next day (Saturday in Australia) because the next day is your Friday back in America-- would you go to church on Sunday because it is the seventh day of YOUR week?"
Anyway, glad you do realize the calendar did not change! :)
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Ulicia asked:
"Were you to fly to Australia (from America) next Thursday, would you refuse to go to church with Australian SDA's the next day (Saturday in Australia) because the next day is your Friday back in America-- would you go to church on Sunday because it is the seventh day of YOUR week?"
Your question is valid.
I have lived in a country on the other side of the dateline. In my travels to that country, I have crossed crossed the dateline a number of times. So, in crossing the dateline, I have had to deal with the question that you have asked.
My position then and now is: I will keep the Sabbath as it is kept on that side of the dateline, because the day we call Saturday, in English is the 7th day of the week. The Bible Command is to keep the 7th day of the week.
The situation in the Pacific Islands is a special situation. It arose because, as you have pointed out, the IDL does not run in a straight line from pole to pole. Rather, in the case of these islands, it deviates (I am not looking at a map, but I thilnk it deviates to the West.). Some of that deviation has been a change in recent times. I think that Samoa is a recent change. Correct me if I am wrong. In any case, that change resulted in what the islanders had called Saturday (English) and was the 7th day of their week was now changed and that same 7th day in the cycle was now called Sunday.
The Protestants accepted that change and began worshiping on that new Sunday and which stated the new week. e.g. it became the 1st day. Some of the SDAs, correctly observed that the Biblical command is to observe the 7th day as was observed by the Jews. [NOTE: I do not mean to observe it in the same manner.]
That is exactly where the Bible is. Christ observed the Sabbath. That 7th day cycle continues today in what is commonly called in English, Saturday. The exception is in certain Pacific Islands. The 7th day that was established by Christ, continues today in a cycle in which that 7th day is now called Sunday (English).
So, the question has arisen: Which day should a Sabbath-keeper keep. Some SDAs have gone one way. Others have gone the other way.
For me, I personally have gone with keeping the same 7-day cycle that Christ Kept. In most of the world, that day in called in English, Saturday. In certain Pacific Islands, that day is now called Sunday.
While I say follow Christ and the Bible, I acknowledge that some see it differently and I do not criticize them.
As I have said earlier, There are real problems with those who live above the Artic Circle. Actually there are three (3) differing practices aong SDAs on when to begin keeping the Saggath. I will list them again:
a) From sundown to sundown, local time--the majority view.
b) Sundown inJersulam--a minority view.
c) from 6 PM to 6 PM--a minority view, although this is the one that early SDAs kept. Read our history on this one.
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The only hitch to that reasoning is that Christ did not live in the Pacific Islands.
So we can't say that the Islanders who keep Sunday are keeping the same day Christ kept.
I fully agree with your first statements --
"My position then and now is: I will keep the Sabbath as it is kept on that side of the dateline, because the day we call Saturday, in English is the 7th day of the week. The Bible Command is to keep the 7th day of the week."
The dateline places Samoa in the eastern hemisphere along with Australia.
The 180th is purely arbitrary and not authorized by scripture nor governments. The IDL zig zags way to the east of 180th to keep Siberia in the eastern hemisphere. Then way to the west of the 180th around Islands near Alaska, then once again to the east of 180th around Islands that deal mainly with Australia and New Zealand.
All those Islands east of the 180th that either remained on the west side of IDL (Australian side) like Tonga or returned to the Australian side (Samoa, Tokelau and The Republic of Kiribati) were originially on the Australian side.
Samoa shifted in 1892 with two July 4ths that year, and now in 2011, shifted back.
What if J.N.Andrews (an early Adventist pioneer) is right and the dateline should run straight down through the Bering Straits? That would be approximately at 168 longitude and would place Samoa, Tonga etc. in the eastern hemisphere.
Or what if Jerusalem, not Greenwiche England, is the center of God's earth marking the Prime Meridian, that would place the dateline east of Alaska, making Alaska one day ahead of the rest of N. America (where they were before America purchased Alaska)
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Ulicia said:
The only hitch to that reasoning is that Christ did not live in the Pacific Islands.
So we can't say that the Islanders who keep Sunday are keeping the same day Christ kept.
Once we accept the establishement of the IDL, we can trace that weekly cycle back to the time of Christ and the day that Christ kept.
You are correct that the IDL is purely an arbitrary decision and the Bible says nothing about such. That is the reason why some of the differences exist within the SDA Church. E.g. Those who believe we should keep it according to the time in Jersulam.
To me the Bible is clear on the issue of sundown to sundown which I apply to a local time basis. The other isues that people raise and you have mentioned, I generally donot believe are spoken to in the Bible. IOW, I will suggest thaqt this is one of those issues that is between us and the leading of God.
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I will suggest thaqt this is one of those issues that is between us and the leading of God.
The reason I'm concerned about this issue is because it has been handed down from the church leadership in the Pacific Islands. It is not simply a personal issue between individuals and God.
There are many people in the Islands of Samoa who are basically locked out of the Seventh-day Adventist Churches. They are not allowed to worship in the Seventh-day Adventist Churches on Saturday. So they have been finding other places to worship. (Often outside) In other words -- those who believe the seventh day is from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset according to scripture are no longer treated like members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Yes, I agree the established IDL is the guide as to where the new day begins.
So why do Adventists NOT accept the established IDL?
A one time "cross over" did not change the week. That cross over will soon be forgotten by everyone.
The day after their so called Sabbath is MONDAY in all that Monday means. Saturday they go play baseball or basketball, it's still considered the "weekend" but now Saturday is like any secular person regards a Saturday -- The week hasn't changed, but the Seventh-day Adventist churches now close on Saturday and open on Sunday right along with the Catholics, the Methodists and other denominations.
But to bring in a new prespective -- let's consider Tonga (a group of Island just south of Samoa)
Tonga has from the earliest introduction of Christianity about 100 years before Adventist missions arrived, held Sunday as Sunday in the eastern hemisphere. Tongan politics was pretty much influenced by the Weslyan missionaries who were into the politics as well as religion. The Weslyans and Catholics, and British Missionaries all kept Sunday -- the same as most protestants and all Catholics in Australia and New Zealand.
There has been NO IDL change in Tonga in all those years. Protestant and Catholic missionaries arrived in Tonga and kept Sunday according to the Eastern Hemisphere. Nearly 100 years later Adventists arrived from America and kept Sunday right with them, claiming it was really Saturday, and are still doing so today.
Tonga set the precedent -- and slowly the Islands are all being led into Sunday worship, simply because Adventists refuse to acknowledge that the IDL is set by the Island groups not by an arbitrary line that isn't taught by scripture or set by governments.
When Sunday laws come to America how are people in America who support Sunday keeping in these Islands going to answer?
If the authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church can call Sunday the Sabbath and enforce it on their members in one area, why not listen to the authority of Protestant and Catholic call for UNITY against evil and uphold Sunday as the Sabbath to bring people back to God in America?
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Ulicis, the answers are not easyi. My position is ismply,: Do what you think God asks, as stated in the Bible.
As to some of the questions in the future, God will lead when asn if those situations arise.
Perhaps a partial answer to some question is: The Bible does not teach against going to a worshilp service on the 1st day of the week. What the Bible teaches is keeping an entire 24 hour day, the 7th day of the week, in the manner tht God asked. One can have a worshilp service on any day of the week. EGW wrote as to how SDAS could use Sunday laws for evangelism.
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I will suggest thaqt this is one of those issues that is between us and the leading of God.
The reason I'm concerned about this issue is because it has been handed down from the church leadership in the Pacific Islands. It is not simply a personal issue between individuals and God.
There are many people in the Islands of Samoa who are basically locked out of the Seventh-day Adventist Churches. They are not allowed to worship in the Seventh-day Adventist Churches on Saturday. So they have been finding other places to worship. (Often outside) In other words -- those who believe the seventh day is from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset according to scripture are no longer treated like members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Yes, I agree the established IDL is the guide as to where the new day begins.
So why do Adventists NOT accept the established IDL?
A one time "cross over" did not change the week. That cross over will soon be forgotten by everyone.
The day after their so called Sabbath is MONDAY in all that Monday means. Saturday they go play baseball or basketball, it's still considered the "weekend" but now Saturday is like any secular person regards a Saturday -- The week hasn't changed, but the Seventh-day Adventist churches now close on Saturday and open on Sunday right along with the Catholics, the Methodists and other denominations.
But to bring in a new prespective -- let's consider Tonga (a group of Island just south of Samoa)
Tonga has from the earliest introduction of Christianity about 100 years before Adventist missions arrived, held Sunday as Sunday in the eastern hemisphere. Tongan politics was pretty much influenced by the Weslyan missionaries who were into the politics as well as religion. The Weslyans and Catholics, and British Missionaries all kept Sunday -- the same as most protestants and all Catholics in Australia and New Zealand.
There has been NO IDL change in Tonga in all those years. Protestant and Catholic missionaries arrived in Tonga and kept Sunday according to the Eastern Hemisphere. Nearly 100 years later Adventists arrived from America and kept Sunday right with them, claiming it was really Saturday, and are still doing so today.
Tonga set the precedent -- and slowly the Islands are all being led into Sunday worship, simply because Adventists refuse to acknowledge that the IDL is set by the Island groups not by an arbitrary line that isn't taught by scripture or set by governments.
When Sunday laws come to America how are people in America who support Sunday keeping in these Islands going to answer?
If the authority of the Seventh-day Adventist Church can call Sunday the Sabbath and enforce it on their members in one area, why not listen to the authority of Protestant and Catholic call for UNITY against evil and uphold Sunday as the Sabbath to bring people back to God in America?
Much prayer is needed.
:sabbath:
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I suppose if all of us travel around the globe in one direction, we could arrive back at this spot and keep what to us is still the seventh day, while everyone else is calling that same day Sunday.
Or we could travel the other direction and end up keeping Friday.
If we traveled around the world twice in two years in one direction, we could end up keeping Monday or Thursday.
Gregory, I don't such reasoning is sound.
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Bob, you are correct. Your illustration is not rational and it would not happen as long as you came back to the same spot.
If you left on Thursday morning (at 10 minutes after midnight), traveled for exactly 23 hours, returned to the same spot, it would still be Thursday (at 10 minutes after 11 PM) on the day you returned.
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Actually, if you started in New Zealand and boarded a plane on Friday, two hours before sunset and flew west along approximately the same latitude for exactly 24 hours you would be following the sun and it would be two (or one) hours before sunset all the way. Every timezone you crossed you would set your watch back one hour again making it two hours till sunset. Since Sabbath begins at the setting sun -- the Sabbath would not begin for you on your whole journey. The sun would not set for you on your whole 24 hour journey.
When you arrived back in New Zealand -- yes -- YOUR WATCH would say it was exactly the same time as when you left -- still two hours before sunset. According to your watch it would say it's still Friday. BUT 24 hours have passed. And everyone in New Zealand would tell you it's now Saturday one hour before sundown.
But you still haven't experienced the Friday sunset -- so yes Bob is correct in saying that person could argue that Sabbath was just starting, while in reality it was ending.
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Why not choose a point between the continents of Asia and America and have that be the line? Seems logical to me.
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The establishment of the IDL is arbitrary and totally lacking in Biblical support. that is the reason that some of the differences in opinon exist within the SDA Church. The IDL is simply of human origon.
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I have a better question.l
Two identical twiln brothers are adults here on Earth and both are aged 35. One is and astronaut who taks a space flight into outer space which causes him to return to Earth at a time when the Earth-bound brother is now 45 years old. How old will the astronaut be? No he will not be 45. He will be younger. Time slowed. See Quantumn Mechanics.
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The establishment of the IDL is arbitrary and totally lacking in Biblical support. that is the reason that some of the differences in opinon exist within the SDA Church. The IDL is simply of human origon.
Are there places on the earth where it is impossible to keep or know the Sabbath?
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Bob, you are correct. Your illustration is not rational and it would not happen as long as you came back to the same spot.
If you left on Thursday morning (at 10 minutes after midnight), traveled for exactly 23 hours, returned to the same spot, it would still be Thursday (at 10 minutes after 11 PM) on the day you returned.
I think you misunderstood my point, but Ulicia did get it. It is a point that Odom and/or Andrews made in his/their books, from what I recall.
In the above post, you appear to be agreeing with Ulicia's position.
Since the day begins and ends with sunset, then the 7th day begins and ends with sunset. If the 7th day is always my 7th day regardless of what is the 7th day for everyone around me, then if I travel by boat and car around the world, when I arrive back at where I started, my 7th day will be one day earlier or later than everyone else's. And each time I make the same trip, my 7th day will get out of sync an additional day.
Following this reasoning, if two twins aged 20 go opposite directions around the globe 365 times in one solar year, one twin will be aged 22 and the other will still be 20 without having gotten older even one single day. A way of increasing longevity to close to twice what it is today? A way of never growing older? Or evidence that we cannot calculate which day of the week it is without some sort of reference to those around us?
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And just what is a dateline? And why is it even needed? After all, when the local time hits midnight we have the next date and computers worldwide flip the date in each timezone individually.
For the Seventh-day Adventist, on Friday sundown, it is Sabbath until Saturday sundown.
The dateline is a mere contrivance, antiquated at best, as world financial markets have made it virtually irrelevant. With the help of GPS ships clocks change from zone to zone and Greenwich mean time and the Dateline hold little relevance to shipping or financial transactions anymore.
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So it should be possible to travel into space and come back yesterday?
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Most of the conversation shows the absolute necessity of the dateline.
Reality demands it.
The person who travels westward around the world following the sun, making the complete circuit in exactly one day, appears not to lose any time because he sets his clock back one hour at every time zone, thus it's always the same time -- time appears as if it isn't advancing.
If he leaves New Zealand at 6:00 a.m. sunrise Wednesday morning, it's still 6:00 a.m. sunrise Wednesday morning when he gets to England even though he has travelled for about 11 hours.
The reality is that 11 hours have passed, the illusion is that time stood still because he is keeping pace with the sun as it travels around the world.
When he arrives back to New Zealand having circled the earth, it's still 6:00 a.m. and still sunrise. If it weren't for the dateline in the Pacific Ocean, and simply letting his experience in the sun determine if a day has passed, there would be no reason for him to think it wasn't still 6:00 a.m Wednesday morning.
BUT the reality is that he has experienced a full day. The people in New Zealand have experienced a full day. And it is now sunrise Thursday morning.
He didn't stay a day younger by doing this. That's simply an illusion.
The dateline is absolutely necessary. The only thing that is arbitrary is the point in the Pacific Ocean where it is crossed.
But the REALIT
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Now let's say you take 24 days to travel around the world westward starting from New Zealand at 6:00 a.m. on a Monday morning. By taking 24 days, you average traveling through one time zone everyday thus you would turn your clock back one hour every day. Through your whole trip you would experience 24 days each being only 23 hours long. It doesn't seem like a big deal (23 hour days) until you get back to New Zealand and find out you are one day late. You lost 24 hours -- a whole day -- and your reckoning of time is one day behind the local count.
Are you one day younger than the person who stayed in New Zealand? No of course not.
It simply shows that a dateline is absolutely necessary in reckoning time on a round world.
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The dateline is absolutely necessary. The only thing that is arbitrary is the point in the Pacific Ocean where it is crossed.
Correct.
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In my previous commenet on quantum mechanics, I got sloppy. I should have referenced "Einstein and his theory or realitivity.l
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To further complicate things: Now we have placed a human "vehicle" on the planet Mars. If we manage to place a human being there, how would she/he keep a Sabbath since there is no other planet in our solar system which has a 24-hour day cycle? Years would also be different?
How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?
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Johann, all questions for which ther is no r eal answer.
NOTE: The Sabbath as we experience it is related to the creation of the Earth. As we understand it, it is not related to some other planet in some other solar system in some other galexy. I am not saying tht it does nto exist out there. IL am only saying that we do not understand it.
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Johann, all questions for which ther is no r eal answer.
NOTE: The Sabbath as we experience it is related to the creation of the Earth. As we understand it, it is not related to some other planet in some other solar system in some other galexy. I am not saying tht it does nto exist out there. IL am only saying that we do not understand it.
Which is my point as well. I was just looking at a map of the new international date line. It is quite far from being a straight line since it wriggles in between islands of the Pacific, seemingly depending on where they have the greatest trade interests.
Can we base our Sabbath celebration on commercial interests?
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How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?
In the new earth there will be a sundown and sunrise every day. While the New Jerusalem has no need of a sun or moon, that doesn't mean that there is no sun or moon.
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
See MH 506; 8T 42.
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How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?
In the new earth there will be a sundown and sunrise every day. While the New Jerusalem has no need of a sun or moon, that doesn't mean that there is no sun or moon.
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
See MH 506; 8T 42.
Mine was a question, not a statement.
We will first, both males and females, spend a 1,000 years in heaven, before the New Earth emerges as our abode.
Our solar system shows us that there is no other planet in our system where there is a 24-hour day. My question was based on this fact, and had nothing to do with the New Earth, where we should be back on a 24-hour system, since it is the same planet.
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How will we keep the Sabbath in Heaven where there is no sundown?
In the new earth there will be a sundown and sunrise every day. While the New Jerusalem has no need of a sun or moon, that doesn't mean that there is no sun or moon.
Isaiah 30:26 Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.
See MH 506; 8T 42.
Mine was a question, not a statement.
We will first, both males and females, spend a 1,000 years in heaven, before the New Earth emerges as our abode.
Our solar system shows us that there is no other planet in our system where there is a 24-hour day. My question was based on this fact, and had nothing to do with the New Earth, where we should be back on a 24-hour system, since it is the same planet.
My mistake. Some use the terms new earth and heaven interchangeably, even though there is a difference.
The entire millennium is a Sabbath of sorts.
One could also ask the same question regarding how long the 1000 years will be since no other planet has a year as long or as short as ours. Some things we just aren't told.
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Johann said:
I was just looking at a map of the new international date line. It is quite far from being a straight line since it wriggles in between islands of the Pacific, seemingly depending on where they have the greatest trade interests.
Correct.
This is the reason that we have problems. Different people, who wish to follow the direction of God, have different perspectives on what one should do in relation to this issue.
I attend a SDA church which has for years occasionally sent members to a Padific island for short term visits, where this is an issue. And, we have had Island church leadership visit our congregation. Our members come back with an understanding of this issue. Yet, even in our circumstances I cannot say that the majority of the membership knows or understands this question.
It has been stated that the General Conference has not ruled on this issue. Based upon the diversity that exists, I would have to say that God seemingly has not ruled. For me personally, I am convinced and settled in my mind as to what I should do in such a situation. But, not everyone agrees wilth me. :)
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The issue I believe is plain in scripture.
Scripture places the Sabbath between the "preparation day" and the "resurrection day". It's spelled out in several of the gospels.
Christ rested from His work of creating on the seventh day. (Gen. 2:2-3 cf John 1:3)
Christ rested from His work of saving mankind on the seventh day. (Matt. 28:1)
The first day has been known as Sunday, even in the first centurary AD. The counterfeit Sabbath was introduced already in the early centuries based --
On the first day upon which Christ rose from the dead etc.
The issue in scripture is who do we worship? The God Who gave the commandments and created the world.
Or the beast who thinks to change times and laws?
The day that is honored and recognized as the day that Christ arose by the whole community -- is the first day of the week, not the seventh.
In the Pacific Islands -- this Sunday was brought to them long before any Adventists were around. They were all in the eastern hemisphere, before "commercial interests" caused confusion of days there.
It's American commercial interests that pulled them over to the American side -- why even the Philippeans were among the first to be pulled over to the American side till everyone realized how silly that was.
Samoa had two 4ths of July in 1892 to pull them over to the American side, till they decided to go back in 2011.
The Cook Islands had two Christmases one year, to get them on the American side.
The question is -- where do we get the idea that Greenwich England is the middle of God's earth? That is purely a "commercial decision" made by a group of men in 1884 which by purely default, not legislation, placed the dateline at 180th. Is that where the prime meridian (line 0) is ordained to be?
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There is a Bible Study in one of our old church papers on this matter.
THE BIBLE ECHO, VOL. 17, No. 12, March 17, 1902.
THE DAY LINE.—No. 1
By N. A. D.
(I don't know who the author N.A.D. was, but it was not the North American Division)
"God made the earth, and as He is not the author of confusion we may reasonably expect that He has made ample provision for this contingency.
And it will be seen by reference to the Scriptures last quoted that He, as a matter of fact, has done so. He has not defined or surveyed any line from north to south and called it "degree number this or that." God does not work that way. In commanding the Sabbath He leaves many details as to what may or may not be done on that day open questions to be settled by the individual conscience. This is indeed true of every precept. God states the principle. The reasoning power, which He has bestowed upon each person, must supply the rest.
Nevertheless the location of the day-line has been quite explicitly stated. As He told Job, God, and not man, has commanded the morning and caused the day-spring, or beginning, to know its place that it might take hold of, or be at the ends of the earth (Hebrew "habitable land"). In passing it is worthy of remark that the punctuation of the English Bible is not found in the original. The correct punctuation here would probably place the interrogation point after "earth." The last clause of this verse obviously belongs to the next. Job 38 : 12-13.
In the 65th Psalm a precise statement is made concerning this matter.
In the fifth verse we are told, in the parallelism of Hebrew poetry, that God is the confidence of all the ends of the earth ("habitable land," that is, .the ends of the continent David lived on and referred to), of them that are afar upon the sea. The Hebrew word here translated end is defined by the best authorities as meaning "limit., end, edge, uttermost part," and comes from a root that means "brink, brim, edge," all of which is consistent with the facts as we will presently show.,
In the 8th verse we learn that the people living at this place are afraid at God's tokens. There God makes the outgoings, or beginning, of morning and evening to rejoice. Now let us take a globe or a map and apply this Scripture. Here in Palestine is where David lived. Let us go towards the dayspring or sunrising, or east to find the uttermost part of the habitable land. At last we reach the ocean. We follow the indentations of the coast-line back and forth until we have reached its most eastern point. Here it is, in the extremity of Asia, the tip of Siberia. There the day begins.
This agrees with J.N.Andrews conclusions that the dayline runs s through the Bering Straits and straight down -- the extreme tip of the Asian continent in Siberia marking the place where the day begins.
This is not the 180th -- but closer to the 168w longitude.
Many of the zig zags would disappear -- except Hawaii (and the mostly uninhabited Alaskan Islands) would then demand a zag to stay in the American time zone. I wonder if Adventists in Hawaii would worship on Friday if that would of been the case? Somehow I kind doubt it.
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The issue I believe is plain in scripture.
Scripture places the Sabbath between the "preparation day" and the "resurrection day". It's spelled out in several of the gospels.
Christ rested from His work of creating on the seventh day. (Gen. 2:2-3 cf John 1:3)
Christ rested from His work of saving mankind on the seventh day. (Matt. 28:1)
The first day has been known as Sunday, even in the first centurary AD. The counterfeit Sabbath was introduced already in the early centuries based --
On the first day upon which Christ rose from the dead etc.
The issue in scripture is who do we worship? The God Who gave the commandments and created the world.
Or the beast who thinks to change times and laws?
The day that is honored and recognized as the day that Christ arose by the whole community -- is the first day of the week, not the seventh.
In the Pacific Islands -- this Sunday was brought to them long before any Adventists were around. They were all in the eastern hemisphere, before "commercial interests" caused confusion of days there.
It's American commercial interests that pulled them over to the American side -- why even the Philippeans were among the first to be pulled over to the American side till everyone realized how silly that was.
Samoa had two 4ths of July in 1892 to pull them over to the American side, till they decided to go back in 2011.
The Cook Islands had two Christmases one year, to get them on the American side.
The question is -- where do we get the idea that Greenwich England is the middle of God's earth? That is purely a "commercial decision" made by a group of men in 1884 which by purely default, not legislation, placed the dateline at 180th. Is that where the prime meridian (line 0) is ordained to be?
The dateline has nothing to do with the prime meridian being in Greenwich, England.
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There is a Bible Study in one of our old church papers on this matter.
THE BIBLE ECHO, VOL. 17, No. 12, March 17, 1902.
THE DAY LINE.—No. 1
By N. A. D.
(I don't know who the author N.A.D. was, but it was not the North American Division)
"God made the earth, and as He is not the author of confusion we may reasonably expect that He has made ample provision for this contingency.
And it will be seen by reference to the Scriptures last quoted that He, as a matter of fact, has done so. He has not defined or surveyed any line from north to south and called it "degree number this or that." God does not work that way. In commanding the Sabbath He leaves many details as to what may or may not be done on that day open questions to be settled by the individual conscience. This is indeed true of every precept. God states the principle. The reasoning power, which He has bestowed upon each person, must supply the rest.
Nevertheless the location of the day-line has been quite explicitly stated. As He told Job, God, and not man, has commanded the morning and caused the day-spring, or beginning, to know its place that it might take hold of, or be at the ends of the earth (Hebrew "habitable land"). In passing it is worthy of remark that the punctuation of the English Bible is not found in the original. The correct punctuation here would probably place the interrogation point after "earth." The last clause of this verse obviously belongs to the next. Job 38 : 12-13.
In the 65th Psalm a precise statement is made concerning this matter.
In the fifth verse we are told, in the parallelism of Hebrew poetry, that God is the confidence of all the ends of the earth ("habitable land," that is, .the ends of the continent David lived on and referred to), of them that are afar upon the sea. The Hebrew word here translated end is defined by the best authorities as meaning "limit., end, edge, uttermost part," and comes from a root that means "brink, brim, edge," all of which is consistent with the facts as we will presently show.,
In the 8th verse we learn that the people living at this place are afraid at God's tokens. There God makes the outgoings, or beginning, of morning and evening to rejoice. Now let us take a globe or a map and apply this Scripture. Here in Palestine is where David lived. Let us go towards the dayspring or sunrising, or east to find the uttermost part of the habitable land. At last we reach the ocean. We follow the indentations of the coast-line back and forth until we have reached its most eastern point. Here it is, in the extremity of Asia, the tip of Siberia. There the day begins.
This agrees with J.N.Andrews conclusions that the dayline runs s through the Bering Straits and straight down -- the extreme tip of the Asian continent in Siberia marking the place where the day begins.
This is not the 180th -- but closer to the 168w longitude.
Many of the zig zags would disappear -- except Hawaii (and the mostly uninhabited Alaskan Islands) would then demand a zag to stay in the American time zone. I wonder if Adventists in Hawaii would worship on Friday if that would of been the case? Somehow I kind doubt it.
Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.
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Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.
You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.
The dateline has nothing to do with the prime meridian being in Greenwich, England.
Only partially right. From Greenwich England (line 0) the longitudes are counted to the 180th, both to the east and to the west. The globe being divided into 360 degrees -- 180 is exactly half way around the world from Greenwich, and thus has become the DEFAULT, though not the actual dateline.
It's when Greenwich England was chosen as the Prime Meridian in 1884, that all this mess in the Pacific started, with some wanting the 180th to be the official dateline.
Yet it was never declared official -- countries in the area were left to chose which side of the date line they would be on.
Had these Islands been left alone, they would all have simply continued to be in the eastern hemisphere where they were in the first place.
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Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.
You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.
You had mentioned it in the context of the Bering Strait, not being opposite Jerusalem.
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Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.
You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.
You had mentioned it in the context of the Bering Strait, not being opposite Jerusalem.
Yes, I know, I'm sorry for not being more specific (happens after a day's work) I was mixing two "possibities" both of which I've mentioned earlier but not in the post you read. Though I still wonder if the default dateline had fallen to the west of Hawaii, and America had zagged the dateline to get Hawaii back into American time zone, would Adventists there be keeping Friday? In fact, do we see any Adventist churches where the dateline zags west of the 180th where Adventists keep Friday?
Or is it only when the dateline zigs east of the dateline that Adventists keep Sunday?
And though you and I agree the 180th is not the official dateline, yet I would say 90% of the arguments for keeping Sunday in those Islands rests on the fact that the dateline zigs east of the 180th.
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I was just looking at a map of the new international date line. It is quite far from being a straight line since it wriggles in between islands of the Pacific, seemingly depending on where they have the greatest trade interests.
Can we base our Sabbath celebration on commercial interests?
Is it just "commercial interests" or is it the whole sense of where they really belong?
Consider these Islands in the Pacific.
Where does the Adventist Church Place them?
Are they in the American Division?
Or are they in the South Pacific Division?
Where is the Seventh-day Adventist headquarters that oversees these Islands?
The South Pacific Division is one of 13 world divisions of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists in the organisation of the church. It comprises 18 countries including Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and the islands of the South Pacific.
It is made up of four regional offices.
They are the Australian Union Conference (headquarters in Melbourne),
New Zealand Pacific Union Conference (headquarters in Auckland),
Papua New Guinea Union Mission (headquarters in Lae) and
Trans-Pacific Union Mission (headquarters in Suva, Fiji).
The head office of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the South Pacific is in Wahroonga, New South Wales, Australia
So the head office is in Australia
Every one of the Union offices are in the eastern hemisphere. They are all keeping the Sabbath on Saturday.
The Pacific Islands -- Tonga and Samoa and others are part of the South Pacific Union.
Why shouldn't they keep the same Sabbath on Saturday?
If even the church has grouped these Islands with Australia and New Zealand
why would anyone think it strange that that is where they belong?
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Hawaii (except for Midway Island and a few other atolls) lies comfortably well east of the 168 parallel a would not be affected by a dateline splitting the Bering Strait and going straight down.
You're right, Hawaii is not affected by the 168W longitude -- it's when Jerusalem is regarded as the Prime Meridian (line 0 )that Hawaii is affected.
You had mentioned it in the context of the Bering Strait, not being opposite Jerusalem.
Yes, I know, I'm sorry for not being more specific (happens after a day's work) I was mixing two "possibities" both of which I've mentioned earlier but not in the post you read. Though I still wonder if the default dateline had fallen to the west of Hawaii, and America had zagged the dateline to get Hawaii back into American time zone, would Adventists there be keeping Friday? In fact, do we see any Adventist churches where the dateline zags west of the 180th where Adventists keep Friday?
Or is it only when the dateline zigs east of the dateline that Adventists keep Sunday?
And though you and I agree the 180th is not the official dateline, yet I would say 90% of the arguments for keeping Sunday in those Islands rests on the fact that the dateline zigs east of the 180th.
I'm confused. You state "if the default dateline had fallen to the west of Hawaii..." The default dateline does now lie west of Hawaii. Did you mean east of Hawaii?
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............WEST -- HAWAII -- EAST
Eastern hemisphere -- western hemisphere
Yes, the 180th lies west of Hawaii
Yes, it's confusing. I always have to picture West and East in my mind (guess I'm a visual person), because the eastern hemisphere is west from Hawaii, and the western hemisphere is east of Hawaii. And for me (a Canadian) to go to the east of the dateline I would have to go west! There did I get it right? It's easier simply to say eastern hemisphere, and western hemisphere.
Guess I need more sleep -- running a Vacation Bible School and working on a job and then trying to unwind by trying to keep west and east straight on the dateline... -- but I still wonder if Adventists would have kept Friday if the default dateline put them in the eastern hemisphere and the "agreed upon" dateline pulled them back into the western hemisphere. Somehow I don't think so.
Nor do I know of any Adventists churches where this reverse situation has them worshipping on Friday. But a lot of them have used the 180th to worship on Sunday.
The bottom line for me is --- Sunday is the first day of the week. It is recognized by all the churches as the day of the week when the resurrection of Christ took place. It is recognized by all governments as Sunday. Thus it is Sunday and not Sabbath the seventh day, even if they did cross the dateline and experienced ONE six day week.
The Bible is plain that the Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, which is known as Saturday.
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Ulilcia said:
The Bible is plain that the Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, which is known as Saturday.
You were correct when you stated that this situation is complicated and hard to understand. I consider that I understand it. Yet, in this discussion I find myself making errors. I was cought in a major error. What is not known is that In my posts I caught myself making other errors which I was able to remove before they were posted.
I have continued to post on this issue because I consider it to be a very important issue, as do those who disagree with my position. LIn short, I believe that all parties to t his discussion are honest people who want to do what God and theBible want them to do.
My understanding is that we are asked to keep the 7th day in a weekly cycle that can be traced back to the time of Christ and wass the day that Christ kept. In most of the world, that dayisknown in english as 'Saturday. However,, I believe that in some parts of the Pacific Ocean, due teo changes in the DAte Line, that day has become known in english as Sunday. Therefore, I beleive that is the day that should be kept, in those Pacific Islalnds.
From this perspective, I Do not agtree with your statement that I have quoted above, as it applies to those Pacific Islands.
This is the issue that edivides sthe SDA Chruch: Do we keep the same 7th day of the weekly cycle that Christ kept? Or, to we keep a different day that is the day before the day that other Protestants keep and is called Sunday?
You are intelligent. I Respect your thinking. You state lyour position well. YOu do so from a perspective of wanting to follow God' leading and the Bible. I simply have a different undrstanding.
Blessings on you.
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This is the issue that edivides sthe SDA Chruch: Do we keep the same 7th day of the weekly cycle that Christ kept? Or, to we keep a different day that is the day before the day that other Protestants keep and is called Sunday?
If we say that the former is correct, then we still have to decide what to do at the point in the Pacific Ocean where the beginning and the end of the day meets. How do we determine which day is the 7th day?
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And you have raised a valid question for which I do not believe there is a clear Biblical answer.
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Ulicia said:
The Bible is plain that the Sabbath is the day before the first day of the week, which is known as Saturday.
My understanding is that we are asked to keep the 7th day in a weekly cycle that can be traced back to the time of Christ and was the day that Christ kept. In most of the world, that dayisknown in english as 'Saturday. However,, I believe that in some parts of the Pacific Ocean, due to changes in the DAte Line, that day has become known in english as Sunday. Therefore, I beleive that is the day that should be kept, in those Pacific Islands.
From this perspective, I Do not agree with your statement that I have quoted above, as it applies to those Pacific Islands.
This is the issue that divides the SDA Chruch: Do we keep the same 7th day of the weekly cycle that Christ kept? Or, to we keep a different day that is the day before the day that other Protestants keep and is called Sunday?
You are intelligent. I Respect your thinking. You state your position well. YOu do so from a perspective of wanting to follow God' leading and the Bible. I simply have a different understanding.
Blessings on you.
Thank-you for your kind words.
What I have a hard time understanding is why you think "Sunday" on these Islands, is the day Christ kept?
If the "dayspring" according to the Bible is the "edge" of the land. That would place the dateline at the furtherest eastern tip of the great land mass which includes Palestine where Christ lived and taught. That furthest tip would be Siberia. If we draw a straight line down from this tip, it puts the Islands into the eastern hemisphere.
Also these Islands were in the eastern hemisphere before 1884 when the Greenwich Prime meridian was chosen that caused some of them (but never Tonga) to switch to the western hemisphere.
Yet, now Samoa simply moved back where they were before. Tonga has never switched sides. Yet both these groups of Islands now worship on Sunday.
What is the rational that Sunday in these Islands, is the day Christ kept?
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UPDATE
I mentioned earlier that August 2 the SPD had a meeting dealing with the Sabbath Samoan issue.
At present there is still no official report.
But what has come out is encouraging to the Sabbath Keepers in Samoa, as apparently no decision was reached. Apparently the need that the Sabbath keepers (those regarding Saturday as the 7th day) should have a hearing, was considered.
Hopefully an official report will soon be available as right now details are basically "hear-say".
Keep praying that God's will be done.
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Ulicia: It appears to me that the root of our difference lies in the IDL. You appear to have derived a place for the beginning time (what the secular world calls the INternational Date Line.) somewhere on earth based upon your understanding of what the Bible says. In doing so, you are attempting to follow God and the Bible.
I am not convinced that one can determine a date line (the beginning of time) on the basis of a Biblical text. Part of such thinking is based upon unknown changes that may have taken place on Earth at the Flood. Yes, I think I know what your response might be. But, for a number of reasons, I am simply not convinced that the Bible gives us such informaiton.
As that is my personal positon, I am essentially saying that God and the Bible do not address this issue. So, I simply accept the IDL as it would go in a straight line (isn't it on the 180th meridian, you can correct me if I am wrong). But, I require it to go in a straight line and not wander around as it does in certain of the Pacific Islands.
Is this issue important. Yes, I believe that there are aspects of this issue that are very important. That is why I have posted so much on it. But, I believe that there are aspects that are not clear. If God has allowed some aspects to be unclear, perhaps those are not as important as others. In any case, I can consider those who differ with me to be honestly attempting to follow God and the Bilble.
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Anybody out there believe that Jesus Christ kept a different day of the week than David, Nehemiah, Moses, Noah, or Adam?
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No.
But, while we can trace it back to the time of Christ, but we can not trace it back to Adam.
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No.
But, while we can trace it back to the time of Christ, but we can not trace it back to Adam.
Can we trace it back to pre-Moses times?
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The controversy began when Greenwich was declared the center of the world. The islands were pulled out of their "natural" time zones and aligned with a contenant far to the east of them.
The question of a definite seventh day is not in question. Jesus kept that seventh-day. It has been brought down to our time by the Jewish race, just as Sunday, the counterfeit "sabbath" has been brought down to us by the catholic church with it's celebration of Christ's resurrection day. Christ rose on the first day of the week, not the seventh. This counting of time is accepted around the world.
Greenwich England as the "center" of the earth as the line "0" is a relative modern invention necessitated because of increased world travel and commerce. Since a circle or globe has 360 decrees, half of that is 180 decrees. So longitudes were counted both east and west of Greenwich, till both sides came to 180 decrees. Of course the 180th NOW marked the exact opposite to line 0 which ran through Greenwich. This was agreed upon in 1884.
Now the issue resolves around whether or not people believe this action in 1884 was a divine imperative or simply a human action. And we also need to remember that the "default" line has been the 180th, BUT the actual DATELINE has never been a straight line following the 180th. It has always zig zagged.
So the question is --does our allegiance to God require honoring the 180th meridian even if it means worshipping on the day recognized as the Sun's day? Or is our allegiance to God demonstrated by adhering to the day known around the world as the closing day of Creation when the Creator rested from His work of creating mankind, as well as the day He rested in the tomb from His work of saving mankind?
Even Adventists, though they instituted Sunday worship in Tonga from the start, were not totally consistant in demanding all churches east of the 180th but west of the actual dateline keep Sunday. Fiji straddles the 180th meridian, it's main Islands lie west of it, but several smaller Islands are east of the 180th. Yet Adventists (rightly in my opinion) all keep time according to the estern hemisphere.
If this picture uploads you will be able to see the red lines indicating present day Prime and default meridian.
A Black line where several Bible scholars (including J.N..Andrews) placed the Dateline
A yellow line showing where the meridian and Datline would be if Jerusalem were chosen as the middle of the earth.
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To get a glimpse of the situation in Samoa --
Click on the link to view the TV item (youtube) featuring STM President interview and his view on Sunday keeping, and also a segment featuring the Lighthouse group who are keeping Sabbath on Saturday and worshipping under the tents:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNFY9L25PD8&feature=youtu.be
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Are there any Jews on Samoa? If there are, which day do they keep as Sabbath?
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I found this on Google:
"Arthur Weiss, I'm an Orthodox Jew living in the UK.
"The web-site link gives the answer - namely that
1) Jews should avoid Western Samoa if possible. There are not known to be any religious / Shabbat observant Jews in the country so practically it is not an issue except for one or two Jews known to be living there.
2) This week, Shabbat would start on Thursday night and end on Saturday to cover the switch."
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Interesting -- for if it starts on Thursday night and ends on Saturday night the Jews would be covering the "switch" of 1892 when all the Samoan Islands switched to American time!
There is still "American Samoan" that lies east of "Independant Samoa" that is still on American time.
It is those in Independant Samoa that are now worshipping on Sunday, refusing to acknowledge they are back on Australian time.
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SDA church in Samoa to worship on Sundays
Updated 14 August 2012, 16:46 AEST
The Seventh Day Adventist Church in Samoa has decided it's official day of worship will be Sunday.
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/radio/program/pacific-beat/sda-church-in-samoa-to-worship-on-sundays/999106
I don't think this is final
this is the Sunday party trying to make it final.
To me this issue is far more significant than the fight over whether women can be conference presidents or not.
If the church can call Sunday the seventh day -- they have totally undermined the whole reason for being a seventh-day Adventist and have sided with the very party prophecy has warned us would deceive the whole world.
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It's not the fight over women conference presidents, it is the issue of Unions taking action that put them in rebellion against the General Conference.
Elder Wilson felt that the action was important enough to meet with them personally, and also preach a sermon about it.
I think what makes the women's ordination issue more important is that the rebellion involves a more politically sensitive and geographically crucial part of the world church.
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So what about making a ruling that sunday is now the Sabbath day.
I regard that as rebellion as well.
It's against the very foundational name of Seventh-day Adventists.
How is it that these South Pacific Adventist Leaders have a consitutency to make a policy that declares Sunday to be the Sabbath day?
Everything I've heard against why the unions and divisions can't adopt a policy to ordain women should apply with equal force if not more so to a conference and division declaring SUNDAY to the Sabbath.
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The seventh-day is the seventh-day no matter what day it falls on.
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So what about making a ruling that sunday is now the Sabbath day.
I regard that as rebellion as well.
It's against the very foundational name of Seventh-day Adventists.
How is it that these South Pacific Adventist Leaders have a consitutency to make a policy that declares Sunday to be the Sabbath day?
Everything I've heard against why the unions and divisions can't adopt a policy to ordain women should apply with equal force if not more so to a conference and division declaring SUNDAY to the Sabbath.
The key point in your post above is "I regard..."
What you personally regard as significant rebellion might not be the same as what GC leaders see as rebellion.
You can tell them your views if you like and see if they will agree with you.
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I understand the GC Adventist Research Institute came to the conclusion after years of study that Sunday would be the correct day of worship for the local 9.000 Adventists there in Samoa because that was the day previously called Saturday on the old calendar.
A minority dissident group insists on keeping Sabbath according to the new calendar to show they are not keeping the Roman Catholic Sunday. Some of them claim that Samoan churches in the United States and Australia and New Zealand are among their supporters.
Misinformation,
the GC Adventist Research Institute did not come to that conclusion.
The Biblical Research Committee (BRC) of the South Pacific Division (SPD) may have decided that, but not the GC Adventist Research Institute.
This is part of the false information that is floating around and was used to pressure the people to worship on Sunday.
The GC has confirmed that there is no documented action by the General Conference endorsing or supporting the action of the Samoa SDA administration to change its Sabbath day of worship to Sunday.
At present the decision of the South Pacific division is in direct opposition to stated Adventist belief.
This ruling by leadership in the South Pacific is against stated church
doctrine.
Read here:
The Church Manual Revised 2010 (18th Edition), p. 138.
"The Sabbath holds a special place in our lives. The seventh day of the week,
from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday (Lev. 23:32), is a gift from God, a sign
of His grace in time." ·
The Seventh-day Adventists Believe (An exposition of the fundamental beliefs of
the SDA Church), 2005 Edition, page 296 and 297 states: "The
Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday evening and ends at sunset Saturday evening
(see Gen 3:15; cf. Mark 1:32).
And in 1988 edition page 263
What gives the SPD the right or the constituency to rule anything else?
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The seventh-day is the seventh-day no matter what day it falls on.
That is what all Sunday observers the world over say. They too keep every seventh day.
Unless the seventh day has a name that sets it apart from the other six days of the week, any day can be the repeating seventh.
Saturday is established as the seventh-day -- the creation Sabbath -- the Sabbath when Christ rested in the tomb,-- by every Seventh-day Adventist church/conference/union/division the world over. Except in the Pacific where sunday, which will be the mark of the beast, is creeping in slowly covering more and more territory and being defended as the "true sabbath".
It just goes to show how crafty the devil is in bringing in sunday -- I often wondered how a Seventh-day Adventist could be deceived into accepting Sunday. We are shown how easy by what's happening in Samoa. All it takes is to call Sunday "the seventh day". :'(
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I wasn't referring to any seventh-day. but to the seventh-day whatever day that is irregardless on what side of the date-line that seventh-day is named, be it named Saturday or Sunday.
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I wasn't referring to any seventh-day. but to the seventh-day whatever day that is irregardless on what side of the date-line that seventh-day is named, be it named Saturday or Sunday.
The seventh-day is named Saturday on both sides of the dateline.
Adventists in New Zealand and Australia go to church on Saturday, as do Adventists in Hawaii and Oregon even though they are on opposite sides of the dateline. Saturday is the seventh-day on both sides of the dateline.
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Ulicia, that is a serious issue. If indeed they are keeping Sunday in direct defiance of the GC mandate on Sabbath keeping, and if the SPD condones it, wouldn't it make sense that the SPD should be disbanded or removed from fellowship? I am shocked that we haven't seen an outcry against this rebellion against one if our most core doctrines.
Why hasn't the Church made an example of what happens to a field that goes into rebellion against the GC by disfellowshiping or disbanding the entire SPD?? I am sure that everyone who has called for decisive action against CUC for something as small ad WO will of course call for even stronger action against Samoa, and against the SPD.
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The Seventh Day Adventist Church in Samoa has decided it's official day of worship will be Sunday.
This follows a disagreement over what day constitutes the sabbath when Samoa recently changed days by moving the international dateline to the east, so as to be on the same day of the week as Australia and New Zealand.
The sabbath day is a central part of SDA beliefs, so having some congregations worshipping on a Sunday and others on a Saturday was a serious theological challenge.
Ben Tofilau, the Chief Financial Officer of the Samoan Seventh Day Adventist Church, tells Bruce Hill a panel of biblical researchers has now decided the issue, and almost everyone has accepted it.
You have two groups of honest people who are attempting to follow the Biblical teaching. The Biblical teaching is not that one keep a 7th day. It is that one keep THE 7th day. It is not possible to trace the weekly cycle back to the time of creation. We do not even know the year that God created the Earth and therefore established the 7th day. However, we can trace the weekly cycle back to the time of Christ.
One group of people honestly believes that due to a movement of the International Date Line, the 7th day that Christ kept is now named Sunday and therefore, as we should keep the same 7th day that Christ kept, we should now keep Sunday.
The 2nd group disagrees with them.
The international Date Line is of human origon. There is nothing Biblical about it. Some here have posted, if I understand them, that there is a Biblically established date line. While I do not agree with that, I understand that those people are honest people who are attempting to do what God wants us to do. These people say, as I understand them, that such a Date Line would have the Biblical 7th day on a day that in Samoa is now called Saturday. O.K. Such would also change the day of the week in some other places of the world. Such a date line would potentially change some other places in the world to a 7th day that is called Friday, as I understand it.
I respect the spiritual integrety of those who disagree withme on this. I acknowledge that they are attempting to follow the leading of God. But, I would ask that they attribute the same to those who differ with them. None are attempting to follow a papal custom. None are attemptling to rebell agailnst God's leading.
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The Seventh Day Adventist Church in Samoa has decided it's official day of worship will be Sunday.
This follows a disagreement over what day constitutes the sabbath when Samoa recently changed days by moving the international dateline to the east, so as to be on the same day of the week as Australia and New Zealand.
The sabbath day is a central part of SDA beliefs, so having some congregations worshipping on a Sunday and others on a Saturday was a serious theological challenge.
Ben Tofilau, the Chief Financial Officer of the Samoan Seventh Day Adventist Church, tells Bruce Hill a panel of biblical researchers has now decided the issue, and almost everyone has accepted it.
You have two groups of honest people who are attempting to follow the Biblical teaching. The Biblical teaching is not that one keep a 7th day. It is that one keep THE 7th day. It is not possible to trace the weekly cycle back to the time of creation. We do not even know the year that God created the Earth and therefore established the 7th day. However, we can trace the weekly cycle back to the time of Christ.
One group of people honestly believes that due to a movement of the International Date Line, the 7th day that Christ kept is now named Sunday and therefore, as we should keep the same 7th day that Christ kept, we should now keep Sunday.
The 2nd group disagrees with them.
The international Date Line is of human origon. There is nothing Biblical about it. Some here have posted, if I understand them, that there is a Biblically established date line. While I do not agree with that, I understand that those people are honest people who are attempting to do what God wants us to do. These people say, as I understand them, that such a Date Line would have the Biblical 7th day on a day that in Samoa is now called Saturday. O.K. Such would also change the day of the week in some other places of the world. Such a date line would potentially change some other places in the world to a 7th day that is called Friday, as I understand it.
I respect the spiritual integrety of those who disagree withme on this. I acknowledge that they are attempting to follow the leading of God. But, I would ask that they attribute the same to those who differ with them. None are attempting to follow a papal custom. None are attemptling to rebell agailnst God's leading.
Perfect example of what I am talking about that drives me crazy. Why is there not fasting and praying for God to settle the issue? The reason is because people don't really believe God exist or that Jesus is still alive after all this time. I know I am crazy to ask that question, I know. The fact of the matter is that we have such a drought of the Holy Spirit and Prophets and wisdom that people really think God cannot give them the answer. But that is primarily because they refuse to believe that God will talk to people the same as in Biblical times. Instead the answer must be found in the everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. Is God alive or is he dead? If he is alive he can verbably talk and straighten things that are not addressed in the Bible. But of course we do not believe that he exist do we.?
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God does not always work by supernatural revelation. When He does, that revelation is often challenged and ignored.
God often works individually on people and He allows, I beleive, honest people to differ to drive them to Scripture, prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
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Here is part of the problem I am having with this issue of what named day is in reality THE seventh-day Sabbath of the Lord.
If, for example, it were 5:00 p.m. where I am in Pugwash, NS, Canada and 10:00 a.m. in Honolulu, Hawaii, USA. and 8:00 a.m. in Auckland, NZ, the same sun that is shining where I am would also be the same sun that is shining in both Honolulu and Auckland, however, whereas it is called Wednesday in both Pugwash, NS, Canada and in Honolulu, Hawaii, USA, even with the greater time difference, it is called Thursday in Auckland, NZ with only a two hour time difference between Honolulu and Auckland. This doesn't make any sense to me biblically, but this is how the world sees it in relation to the human date-line. How does God see it in relation to the evening and the day, sunset to sunset scenario?
When the sun sets first in Pugwash, NS it will biblically be Thursday. When the sun sets later on in Honolulu, Hawaii, it will biblically be Thursday. When the sun sets two hours later in Auckland, NZ only after the sun sets in Honolulu, Hawaii, shouldn't it also biblically be Thursday instead of Friday? If it weren't for the humanly established date-line between Honolulu and Auckland, the world would have shown it as Thursday instead of Friday, even though the world uses midnight to midnight rather than from sunset to sunset.
Again, all this doesn't make any sense to me, and all on account of this humanly devised date-line in opposition to God's sunset to sunset day determination scenario.
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Quote by Chrisitian:
Perfect example of what I am talking about that drives me crazy. Why is there not fasting and praying for God to settle the issue?
There is a lot of fasting and praying going on by those in Samoa that have stood against the popular movement to worship on Sunday.
It isn't easy for them -- NOT EASY AT ALL.
Persecution by shunning and constantly having your former friends in the church treating you like an outcast, being locked out of the church you love.
No Adventist pastor on the Islands being allowed to preach in your congregation so lay people have to do the preaching.
They had one special Sabbath, when Pastors came from New Zealand and Australia to worship with them.
What a joyous occasion that was for them.
It's a mini revelation of what it will be like in the early stages when Sunday laws are passed.
The trouble is -- I'm not so sure it's two groups of honest people.
A lot of the people keeping Sunday never fasted and prayed about it, they just do what the leaders tell them to do.
But I know the ones keeping Saturday as the Sabbath have spent a lot of time praying.
In fact they have found a richness in Sabbath keeping they never thought possible!
Those keeping Saturday as the seventh day in Samoa do so from CONVICTION and love for the Lord, and His holy time has become VERY precious -- it's a totally different experience than those who keep sabbath simply because it's habit.
There's something about persecution that refines the gold.
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When the sun sets later on in Honolulu, Hawaii, it will biblically be Thursday. When the sun sets two hours later in Auckland, NZ only after the sun sets in Honolulu, Hawaii, shouldn't it also biblically be Thursday instead of Friday? If it weren't for the humanly established date-line between Honolulu and Auckland, the world would have shown it as Thursday instead of Friday, even though the world uses midnight to midnight rather than from sunset to sunset.
Again, all this doesn't make any sense to me, and all on account of this humanly devised date-line in opposition to God's sunset to sunset day determination scenario.
Actually Daryl,
If the human devised 180th and the "center of the earth" hadn't been shifted to England, there wouldn't have been the confusion to these Islands concerning the Sabbath, they would all be on Australian time. That's where they were prior to the "human devising". The "day line" naturally, without human intervention had fallen in the Pacific, thus America was at the tail end of the day, while the Islands were at the BEGINNING of the day -- just where they are again today.
The gospel (which includes the Sabbath)
began in Palistine where the Sabbath was confirmed to be on the day PRIOR to Sunday by Christ Himself.
That is the CENTER POINT for establishing the Sabbath.
The message spread east and west from Palistine, with no issues of a day line.
It spread West across Europe and into America
It spread East across Asia to Australia and the Pacific Islands
It wasn't until east met west in the Pacific that it was even realized that there was a difference of a day when east met west. But when east meets west on the globe, there is a day line, it's a scientific fact.
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Biblically, the Sabbath day is the day after Jesus died, and the day before Jesus rose. If the Samoans celebrate Good Friday on Friday, and Easter Sunday on Sunday, then the Sabbath should be the day in between.
The only other possibility is that the Catholic Church in Samoa is celebrating Easter on the wrong day, a very serious charge. Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?
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Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?
No.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church claims to have changed the day from the Sabbath to Sunday. That claim of authority alows the Pople to authorize any other day. Actuallly the Pope does nto have to do it. I remind you that in the area where I live Roman Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation to go to Mass on Saturday afternoon. That authorization came from the Bishop.
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The gospel (which includes the Sabbath)
began in Palistine where the Sabbath was confirmed to be on the day PRIOR to Sunday by Christ Himself.
That is the CENTER POINT for establishing the Sabbath.
That is a minority view in Adventism. Robert Leo Odem disusses this in his book. I wish that book remained in print. Now, it can be purchased on Amazon. Buy it: THE LORD'S DAY ON A ROUND WORLD.
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The trouble is -- I'm not so sure it's two groups of honest people.
A lot of the people keeping Sunday never fasted and prayed about it, they just do what the leaders tell them to do.
Judging motives and the heart. I wish that we would not do that.
I would ask: How do you know that a lot of people never prayed about it? I would think that such knowledge could only come from a supernatural revelation from God. Did you have such?
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I agree, Bob,
Indeed the Samoans celebrate Good Friday on the day they call Friday, and they celebrate Easter on the day they call Sunday. The same "Sunday" that Adventists now call the "Sabbath".
Samoa is 99.7% Christian with 95% of it's population attending church!
And now almost the whole 95% go to church on Sunday.
Going to church on Sunday is a big festive occasion on the Islands. It's not like in America.
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The trouble is -- I'm not so sure it's two groups of honest people.
A lot of the people keeping Sunday never fasted and prayed about it, they just do what the leaders tell them to do.
Judging motives and the heart. I wish that we would not do that.
I would ask: How do you know that a lot of people never prayed about it? I would think that such knowledge could only come from a supernatural revelation from God. Did you have such?
Not judging the heart, only the reality that a lot of those people simply accepted and went along with what the leaders told them to do. (The word "honest" came from your post -- since you judged them all as "honest" implying they studied it out for themselves and came to an honest conclusion that this was right)
The issues were presented to the people by the leadership in a totally one sided manner with some glaring mis-information. The decision was made FOR them.
Most accepted the explanations.
Some dared question authority and paid quite dearly for it.
But now more people are questioning and starting to weigh the evidence and joining the Sabbath keepers! Praise God!
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The gospel (which includes the Sabbath)
began in Palestine where the Sabbath was confirmed to be on the day PRIOR to Sunday by Christ Himself.
That is the CENTER POINT for establishing the Sabbath.
That is a minority view in Adventism. Robert Leo Odem disusses this in his book. I wish that book remained in print. Now, it can be purchased on Amazon. Buy it: THE LORD'S DAY ON A ROUND WORLD.
If that is a minority view, could you please tell me WHERE the gospel began?
Where did Christ minister and teach?
In what region of the earth did Christ go the synagogue every Sabbath?
Where was it that our Lord and Savior died, rested in the tomb and rose again?
Where was the first Christian church headquarters located? (Prior to Rome's usurpation)
Where was the home point for the apostles as they went out to preach the gospel?
I'm not talking longitude here --
I'm talking about the place from which the Gospel with the Sabbath was carried to the world.
The day called Sabbath was verified by Christ as He ministered, died and rose again in the land of Galilee and Judea -- From Judea the gospel traveled west to Europe and on to America.
From Judea it travelled east to India, Asia and on to Australia and the Pacific Islands.
That is FACT not "minor opinion".
The first missionaries to the Pacific Islands kept Sunday according to Australian time.
it was when east met west that the "extra day" or "lost day" depending on which direction one was going became an issue.
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Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?
No.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church claims to have changed the day from the Sabbath to Sunday. That claim of authority alows the Pople to authorize any other day. Actuallly the Pope does nto have to do it. I remind you that in the area where I live Roman Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation to go to Mass on Saturday afternoon. That authorization came from the Bishop.
Maybe we need another reminder here:
1) Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter, Dies Domini, issued July 7, 1998.
2) Pope Benedict (http://Permalink: http://www.zenit.org/article-20457?l=english), VIENNA, Austria, SEPT. 9, 2007, declares, "Going to Sunday Mass is not just a rule to follow, but rather an "inner necessity," ""Without Sunday we cannot live."
3) Listen to the Pope, June 3, 2012, talking about the necessity of Sunday (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk8M6YwTVVA).
4) The European Union must keep Sunday says the Catholic church (http://www.thetrumpet.com/article/5676.4031.0.0/religion/the-eu-must-keep-sunday-says-catholic-church) --
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Plus, if the Catholics aren't really keeping the 1st day of the week in Samoa, and are keeping the 2nd day instead, then wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin according to Catholicism?
No.
Remember, the Roman Catholic Church claims to have changed the day from the Sabbath to Sunday. That claim of authority alows the Pople to authorize any other day. Actuallly the Pope does nto have to do it. I remind you that in the area where I live Roman Catholics can fulfill their Sunday obligation to go to Mass on Saturday afternoon. That authorization came from the Bishop.
If you cannot cite where the Pope has changed the Sabbath from Sunday to another day, then you must be mistaken. The pope changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and not going to mass on Sunday is considered a serious sin, I think one that will send you to hell, not just purgatory. I know of no exceptions being granted to any islands in the Pacific.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/does-a-saturday-morning-mass-fulfill-the-sunday-obligation
http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur242.htm
Saturday afternoon masses don't cut it. It has to be Saturday evening, and that is a take off from the fact that the day begins and ends at sunset. Permitting the obligation of Sunday mass to be met the evening before is an ecumenical move toward Seventh-day Adventism.
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Bob, I did not say that the Pope had changed the Sabbath to Sunday, I stated that the RC Church claimed to have done that.
Bob, I did not say that the Pope had changed the Sabbath from Sunday to another day.
Read what I actually said.
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In 2011 the International Date Line was shifted West, as it related to American Samoa. This occured by skipping Friday. So, the weekly cycle that week was: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and ended with Saturday. IOW, the secular week only had 6 days, and the 7th day was the day now names Sunday.
In Tonga, Seventh Day Adventists (who usually observe seventh-day Sabbath) observe Sabbath on an official Sunday due to an anomaly in the International Date Line which places the line east of Tonga; as Tonga lies east of the meridian of 180° longitude, Sunday as observed in Tonga (as with Kiribati, Samoa, and parts of Fiji and Tuvalu) is considered for this purpose to be the same day as Saturday observed in most other places.[14] Most Samoan Seventh Day Adventists planned to continue to observe Sabbath on the official Sunday after Samoa's crossing the date line in December 2011, but the church in Samatau village decided to adjust and observe Sabbath on the "new" Saturday.[15] The Samoan Independent Seventh-day Adventist Church, which is an independent church from the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Conference church, has decided to continue worshiping on Saturday, after a 6 day week at the end of 2011.
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Friday, 30 December, 2011 - 01:12 Samoa's shift to the west to align with days in New Zealand and Australia next week will also see a change in the sequence of days of the week according to the new calendar being adopted by the Seventh-day Adventist church in Samoa, with Monday becoming the first day of the week to Sunday starting in 2012.
The new version by the SDA church in Samoa will differ from the normal weekly sequence starting with Sunday to Saturday. Saturday being the seventh day of the week is fundamental to the reason why Seventh-day Adventists worship on Saturday as their Sabbath.
Earlier this week, the Samatau SDA church rejected the direction of the Samoa church administration to keep Sunday as the new Sabbath; whereby confirming a division in beliefs and convictions of Seventh-day Adventists not only in Samoa but also overseas regarding the new Sabbath day in Samoa.
According to Pa'u Fereti Puni, a member of the Samatau parish, "We remain Seventh-day Adventists. But the Samatau church worships on Saturdays of the new reckoning and not Sundays in 2012 as per decision of the Samoa church adminsitration".
A huge number of Samoans who worship on Sabbath, the seventh day of the weekly cycle or Saturday belong to the Samoa Independent Seventh-day Adventist Church or SISDAC as they are better known. It has been confirmed that SISDAC will be keeping the Sabbath on Saturday in the new reckoning and not Sunday according to the position of the main church.
The change in Samoa's position according to the International Dateline will not result in a change in the sequence of days in a week. This differs from the position of the Samoa SDA church with its new sequence of days, making Sunday their new Sabbath in 2012 and into the future; the reason why the Samatau SDA church have rejected the new calendar.
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SAMOA’S DATELINE SHIFT CAUSES DIVIDE AMONG S.D.A CHURCHES
Sabbath day falls on Sunday, but some will keep Saturday worship
APIA, Samoa (Talamua, Dec. 28, 2011) - As Samoa prepares to mark the change of Samoa’s position in relation to the International Dateline, where on the stroke of midnight Thursday night, the date will shift from Thursday 29th of December 2011 to Saturday 31st of December 2011; it will also mark the division in conviction of Seventh Day Adventists in Samoa.
Those that will continue to keep Saturday as their Sabbath and others that will now worship on Sunday as the new Sabbath.
At the end of year gathering of the Samatau SDA church, Puni Raea informed the church minister Pastor Kereta Milo that Samatau will continue to worship on Saturday.
Puni announced, "There are no two Sabbaths for Seventh Day Adventists in Samatau". Puni is one of the paramount chiefs of the village and head of the Sa Puni family where the SDA church stands.
Samatau’s position to continue to worship on Saturday is supported by many as confirmed by Mano’o Lutena Mulitalo and Pa’u Fereti Puni, both are members of the SDA church at Samatau and prominent community leaders in New Zealand and with the Samoa government.
According to Pa’u, "There is no intention for us to change religion or to set up a new church. The only difference is that, church members at Samatau SDA church will continue to worship on Saturday while others in Samoa will now worship on Sundays."
This situation has arisen following the decision by the church in Samoa to keep the unbroken cycle of days with the seventh day being Sabbath. The position of the Samoa administration is a result of this week having just six days, making the coming Sunday as the seventh day and so becomes the new Sabbath for the church going into the future.
On Thursday 17th November this year a special meeting was held in Samoa attended by Samoa SDA church ministers from America, Australia, New Zealand and the two Samoans by invitation of the President of the Samoa and Tokelau Mission, Pastor Uili Solofa, to deliberate on the matter.
However, according to the invitation by Pastor Solofa, the decision by the Samoa administration is final.
The meeting in Samoa though involved a presentation by the visiting ministers advising the Samoa administration against their decision to change the worship day to Sunday for Seventh Day Adventists in Samoa. Ironically, when travelling to New Zealand, Australia, America or any other part of the world, they will worship on Saturday.
The coming Saturday in Samoa, 31 December 2011 will also go down in the history of the Seventh Day Adventist church as the beginning for Seventh Day Adventists in Samoa to have two Sabbaths as the next Sabbath for the Samoa Mission will now be Sunday 1st January 2012, while the Samatau SDA church and others that have maintain their conviction will worship on Saturday 31st December 2011 instead.
Current Legislation of the Independent State of Samoa protects the rights of religion. Furthermore the change of Samoa’s position in relation to the International Dateline does not enforce a change in the day Seventh Day Adventists worship in Samoa. Samoa’s position according to the IDL was first changed in 1892 to align with countries on the eastern side like America. Which means, Samoa is going back to its original position.
Talamua: http://talamua.com/index.php
Copyright © 2011 Talamua. All rights reserved
NOTE the following in the above:
APIA, Samoa (Talamua, Dec. 28, 2011) - As Samoa prepares to mark the change of Samoa’s position in relation to the International Dateline, where on the stroke of midnight Thursday night, the date will shift from Thursday 29th of December 2011 to Saturday 31st of December 2011; it will also mark the division in conviction of Seventh Day Adventists in Samoa.
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Self explanatory, I beleive.
Ministry of Commerce, Industry, and Labour
Matagaluega o Pisinisi, Alamanuia ma Leipa
[Please address all correspondences to the Chief Executive Officer]
P.O. Box 862
Apia
SAMOA
Telephone: (685) 20441/ 20442/ 20882
Facsimile: (685) 20443
Email: mpal@mcil.gov.ws.
Website: www.mcil.gov.ws
Level 4, ACB House, Apia
Samoa
[inclusive of Registries of Companies and Intellectual Property]
NOTICE
International Date Line Act 2011
The International Date Line Act 2011 (‘the Act’) commences at 12 o’clock midnight, on
Thursday 29th December 2011, except for section 5(3) of the Act which commenced on 28 June 2011 (being the date of assent by the Head of State). In effect, we will be waking up on Saturday 31st December 2011, and lose one day in our lives as there will be no Friday, 30th December 2011 in the history of Samoa.
Time:
1. Samoa Standard Time will be 13 hours in advance of Co-ordinated Universal Time for the
whole of Samoa.
Calculation of Interest:
2. Where under any instrument of loan it is required to calculate the interest on a daily basis,
there is no interest calculated for the day lost, as a result of the Act.
Effect on Pay and Allowances:
3. The employee must be paid for the normal or usual hours on the day lost, as if that
employee would normally have worked on that day.
Offence and Penalty:
4. An employer commits an offence if he or she does not pay an employee for the normal or
usual hours that the employee would have earned or been paid on the day lost. This
includes contributions paid under the National Provident Fund Act 1972 and the Accident
Compensation Act 1989 and other like benefits or contributions.
5. Any employer who fails to pay an employee for the normal or usual hours that the
employee would have earned or been paid on the day lost (including contributions paid
under the National Provident Fund Act 1972, the Accident Compensation Act 1989 and
other like benefits or contribution, is liable upon conviction to a fine not exceeding 50
penalty units or a term of imprisonment not exceeding three (3) months.
6. In addition, with or without conviction, any employer must pay an employee for the
normal or usual hours that the employee would have earned or been paid on the day lost
(including contributions paid under the National Provident Fund Act 1972, the Accident
Compensation Act 1989 and other like benefits or contribution.
Maps, charts and atlases:
7. The Act applies to all maps, charts and atlases which reflect the International Date Line
and any document referring to a point of time in connection with the International Date
Line.
“Our vision is to lead and excel in the provision of quality service to foster economic growth for all”
8. After the commencement of this Act (that is, on 29 December 2011), all maps, charts and
atlases prepared in Samoa or for the Government of Samoa must accurately depict the
International Date Line at 171o degrees longitude west of Greenwich.
The Fair Trading & Codex Division of the Ministry of Commerce, Industry and Labour can be
contacted for more information, on this Change in Day, on telephone 20441 or 4th Floor ACC
House.
Auelua Taito Samuelu Enari
CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER
MINISTRY OF COMMERCE, INDUSTRY AND LABOUR
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The fact that the change of the date-line on that particular midnight resulted in the day after Thursday (5th Bible day) being referred to as Saturday (6th Bible day) instead of what would normally had been referred to as Friday, makes the next day Sunday into the 7th Bible day, or the true Sabbath day of the Bible.
It, therefore, makes sense for SDAs there to stick to the true 7th Bible day (Sabbath) and worship on that day, even though it is now being referred to as Sunday.
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Exactly.
That is the reason that I and other SDAs beleive that the correct response is to worship in Samoa on the 7th day that is now called Sunday.
However, as I have stated, the IDL is of human origon. It, in my opinon, is not established by the Bible.
There are some honest SDAs who believe that they can establishe a date line by the Bible and they differ with the view above.
Other minority SDAs have other views.
One can read of these in the book THE LORDS DAY ON A ROUND WORLD. I recommend it.
My perspective: There are honest people on both sides of this question. These people want to follow God's leading. We are told that on some issues we will not find it plain and we will have to search the Bible and for the leading of God.
Let us lead this issue to God and individuals.
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I also see a deeper issue beyond what is going on in Samoa.
Exactly.
That is the reason that I and other SDAs beleive that the correct response is to worship in Samoa on the 7th day that is now called Sunday.
However, as I have stated, the IDL is of human origon. It, in my opinon, is not established by the Bible.
There are some honest SDAs who believe that they can establishe a date line by the Bible and they differ with the view above.
Other minority SDAs have other views.
One can read of these in the book THE LORDS DAY ON A ROUND WORLD. I recommend it.
My perspective: There are honest people on both sides of this question. These people want to follow God's leading. We are told that on some issues we will not find it plain and we will have to search the Bible and for the leading of God.
Let us lead this issue to God and individuals.
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The fact that the change of the date-line on that particular midnight resulted in the day after Thursday (5th Bible day) being referred to as Saturday (6th Bible day) instead of what would normally had been referred to as Friday, makes the next day Sunday into the 7th Bible day, or the true Sabbath day of the Bible.
It, therefore, makes sense for SDAs there to stick to the true 7th Bible day (Sabbath) and worship on that day, even though it is now being referred to as Sunday.
I see what you're doing here...
But Bible believing SDAs in Samoa are to, and will, keep Sabbath holy during what the region now regards as the seventh day of the week. Our brothers will keep to the seven day cycle given to us in Genesis, from sundown to sundown. There is a hidden undercurrent which is swaying many towards the treacherous waters where the whore sitteth... the end of which is acceptance of the mark of the beast.
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In 2011 the International Date Line was shifted West, as it related to American Samoa. This occured by skipping Friday. So, the weekly cycle that week was: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and ended with Saturday. IOW, the secular week only had 6 days, and the 7th day was the day now names Sunday.
They returned to their original position in regards to the dateline.
In 1892 they had an EIGHT day week in which they had TWO 4th of July's.
July 1892
Their week was 8 DAYS!
Sunday, Monday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
December 2011
The week was
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday.
That extra day was now subtracted, and they are back on the original schedule.
Any insistance that Sunday is the creation Sabbath is NOT based on scripture or fact.
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Then what day was the actual Sabbath day they should have been observing between July 1892 and December 2011? Also, they must have been observing the wrong day between July 1892 and December 2011.
In 2011 the International Date Line was shifted West, as it related to American Samoa. This occured by skipping Friday. So, the weekly cycle that week was: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and ended with Saturday. IOW, the secular week only had 6 days, and the 7th day was the day now names Sunday.
They returned to their original position in regards to the dateline.
In 1892 they had an EIGHT day week in which they had TWO 4th of July's.
July 1892
Their week was 8 DAYS!
Sunday, Monday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday.
December 2011
The week was
Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday.
That extra day was now subtracted, and they are back on the original schedule.
Any insistance that Sunday is the creation Sabbath is NOT based on scripture or fact.
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Perhaps they should consider keeping both days. That way they can have at least some assurance that they on God's side of the international date line. It's hard to know for sure which side of that line is God-ordained, and which one is man's time.
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They should keep whatever day is the seventh-day as reckoned by a point referenced to a line directly south of the middle of the Bering Strait.
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Bob, I did not say that the Pope had changed the Sabbath to Sunday, I stated that the RC Church claimed to have done that.
Bob, I did not say that the Pope had changed the Sabbath from Sunday to another day.
Read what I actually said.
Likewise, read what I actually said.
Daryl,
It all depends on how you determine what day of the week it is in the Pacific. We can't simply go by what we think is the weekly cycle, since two people going opposite directions around the globe will end up meeting on the other side, one thinking that the Sabbath is on one day, and the other thinking the Sabbath is on the next day. And if they go around and around the globe, for each complete revolution they will find themselves another two days out of sync with each other.
Just think, by going around the globe in one direction or the other, you could shorten the solar year down to 180 days, or lengthen it to 540 days.
It is this kind of reasoning that makes me think that the Samoans that are keeping the Sabbath on Saturday have the sounder position.
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Perhaps they should consider keeping both days. That way they can have at least some assurance that they on God's side of the international date line. It's hard to know for sure which side of that line is God-ordained, and which one is man's time.
That's what the Jewish Rabbi suggested, and then said "That's probably why Jews stay clear of Samoa".
Actually the simply thing to do is just follow the week as it is recognized in the country where you are.
August 18 Saturday will be observed the world over by Seventh-day Adventists. Why should Adventists in Samoa keep August 19 Sunday?
To me the issue isn't about datelines and longitudes etc. etc. though a rudimentary understanding of them is good and generally gives the correct order the world over, it's only in the Pacific where this issue arises.
But the bottom line is that the Sabbath is on Saturday (the day recognized as the day Christ rested in the tomb) no matter which side of the dateline the country is in.
Sunday is recognized by all the Christians (even the Adventists in Samoa who celebrated Easter on Sunday) as the day Christ rose from the grave.
Adventists in Samoa and Tonga have manufactured their own unique calendar that looks like this:
1Monday, 2Tuesday, 3Wednesday, 4Thursday 5Friday, 6Preparation Day (Saturday), 7Sabbath
Basically they now have two Fridays every week and no Sunday at all in their self made calendar.
The whole thing makes about as much sense as someone going to New Zealand and just because they "lost" a day traveling in from America, they insist on keeping Sunday in Australia and ridicule Adventists for going to church on Saturday.
When EGW traveled from America to Australia she experienced a six day week.
Yet, while in Australia she kept Saturday, not Sunday as the Sabbath.
Sunday is the Papal Sabbath, observed by them, and will be enforced by them.
With all the prophecies we have concerning this, how can anyone justify that Sunday is the true Sabbath.
Now, my sister, . . . I write . . . to tell you that we are not to give the least credence to the day line theory. It is a snare of Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday, and God's remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know where we stand. . . . {3SM 318.4}
In other words - when the day line, or dateline is used to justify Sunday keeping as the right day it is a snare of Satan to confuse minds and make the Seventh-day Adventist message sound like a complete fallacy.
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Perhaps they should consider keeping both days. That way they can have at least some assurance that they on God's side of the international date line. It's hard to know for sure which side of that line is God-ordained, and which one is man's time.
That's what the Jewish Rabbi suggested, and then said "That's probably why Jews stay clear of Samoa".
Actually the simply thing to do is just follow the week as it is recognized in the country where you are.
August 18 Saturday will be observed the world over by Seventh-day Adventists. Why should Adventists in Samoa keep August 19 Sunday?
To me the issue isn't about datelines and longitudes etc. etc. though a rudimentary understanding of them is good and generally gives the correct order the world over, it's only in the Pacific where this issue arises.
But the bottom line is that the Sabbath is on Saturday (the day recognized as the day Christ rested in the tomb) no matter which side of the dateline the country is in. ....
I'd prefer we say that Sabbath is on the 7th day of the week instead of saying it's on Saturday. That way, we're fixing it to the weekly cycle and not just to the name somebody gave to a day in the week.
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They should keep whatever day is the seventh-day as reckoned by a point referenced to a line directly south of the middle of the Bering Strait.
That would be following J.N.Andrews suggestion.
He wrote quite extensively on the dateline issue (http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/pioneer_answers/dateline_Andrews.html).
I'd prefer we say that Sabbath is on the 7th day of the week instead of saying it's on Saturday. That way, we're fixing it to the weekly cycle and not just to the name somebody gave to a day in the week.
The names SUNDAY and SATURDAY define which day is the first and the seventh.
Though the actual name is not Biblical, the day they designate is BIBLICAL.
Sunday corresponds with the Biblical first day of the week. Known as the day of the venerable Sun by pagans -- yet still the first day of the week.
Saturday corresponds with the Biblical seventh day of the week.
Simply saying "seventh-day" and detaching that from names designating which day is the seventh, can refer to ANY recurring seventh-day. It is the classic argument of Sunday keepers saying they are keeping a seventh-day-- including Adventists who are keeping Sunday.
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They should keep whatever day is the seventh-day as reckoned by a point referenced to a line directly south of the middle of the Bering Strait.
Why?
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Actually the idea that the day must begin on a STRAIGHT LINE is an illusion.
Now if you start the day at midnight, it might work, but biblically each day begins at sunset.
This means that even if you chose a straight line along one single longitude, you can have a ten hour difference in the time the sun actually sets along that line.
So on any given longitude, the sunset doesn't set in a straight line following along that longitude, it can take more than a 10 hour span!
On a June 21 (summer solstice) the sun sets
--at the equator at 6:00 p.m.
--At the Arctic Circle it sets at 11:30 p.m. (close to midnight)
--At the Antarctic Circle it sets at 12:30 (noon)
On a Dec. 21, it's reversed
--at the equator at 6:00 p.m.
--At the Arctic Circle it sets at 12:30 (noon)
--At the Antarctic Circle it sets at 11:30 p.m.(close to midnight)
So when people argue the "straight line" with the illusion that the darkness falls in a straight line along a given longitude, have a wrong concept-- they haven't considered the problem of the earth's tilted axis.
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They should keep whatever day is the seventh-day as reckoned by a point referenced to a line directly south of the middle of the Bering Strait.
Why?
It's where J.N.Andrews, in his studies felt it should be.
Because
1)The day for "old world" ancients and Bible writers began at the eastern tip of Asia
2)The sun set in the west and as Europeans travelled further west they brought the seven day week count to America
3)The Day ends at the farthest tip of America (which is Alaska)
4) The dateline needs to be a natural barrier --
A natural barrier, that runs from the north to the south and does not run through populated areas.
The Bering Straits are just such a natural barrier where east meets west at a point where a line can be drawn from north to south meeting next to no land masses.
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
Why would this be unnatural?
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
Why would this be unnatural?
It seems more natural to me to keep visibly associated land masses together. That may be improper, but it seems more natural to me.
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
Why would this be unnatural?
I agree. Isn't that part of the Samoan conundrum?
It seems more natural to me to keep visibly associated land masses together. That may be improper, but it seems more natural to me.
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
Why would this be unnatural?
It seems more natural to me to keep visibly associated land masses together. That may be improper, but it seems more natural to me.
I agree. Isn't that part of the Samoan conundrum?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/International_Date_Line.png
I don't see any way to conclude that Samoa more naturally is associated with land masses to the east of the international date line. Plus, Samoa would be west of a line drawn down from the Bering Strait. It is the local mission leadership that wants to keep Samoa on the east of the IDL for calculating the Sabbath.
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
Why would this be unnatural?
It seems more natural to me to keep visibly associated land masses together. That may be improper, but it seems more natural to me.
I agree. Isn't that part of the Samoan conundrum?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/International_Date_Line.png
I don't see any way to conclude that Samoa more naturally is associated with land masses to the east of the international date line. Plus, Samoa would be west of a line drawn down from the Bering Strait. It is the local mission leadership that wants to keep Samoa on the east of the IDL for calculating the Sabbath.
It's a good thing we serve a God who isn't vengeful about these strange little confusions that come up. Is he was, we would all land in the hot place without question. None of us knows it all, and even when we do the best we know, we are still, without doubt, breaking some rule. Nothing in the Bible says where the IDL is, so it seems reasonable that any debate on divine will in this matter is based on man's conjecture.
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So now -- if the Bible, as has been said, does not define the dateline, on what do we base the last day crises when issue will be --
Do we serve God and remember His day which He blessed and made holy, or do we worship the Beast and honour his "sun" day?
I really don't believe God would make something a test that isn't clearly defined.
Thus before the test can come that definition must be clear.
J.N.Andrews makes the best arguments for the placement of the dateline.
Right now the "default dateline" is too far west and has cut many Islands away from their origins for about 100 years, but now they are moving back.
One rather startling observation --
If the dateline were moved to run straight down from the Bering Straits it would be approximately at 168W longitude --
Guess where this would place the Prime meridian (line 0) --what center would it be close too?
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Ulicia, I think that is the easiest and most logical solution.
The Aleutian Islands, they have an appearance of going with Alaska, but following Andrews' reasoning, some of them would go with Russia as far as the day of the week. Does this seem a little unnatural to you? It does to me.
That's why the dateline has always zig zagged.
It is unnatural for a country to be on two different days. So a dateline through populated areas is unnatural.
However, the Aleutian islands, as far as I understand are largely unpopulated. I was curious if any Adventists lived on them and were worshipping on Friday (since they are east of the dateline but west of the 180th) under the same arguments that Tonga (which is west of the dateline but east of the 180th) worshipped on Sunday these past 120 years. But there doesn't seem to be any people there.
Right now if the 168W were set as the default dateline it would more nearly reflect where the literal dateline is right now in relation to the populated areas!
Of course:
Kiribati Islands would still want it further east ( but it won't jut out quite so far anymore)
And the largely unpopulated Aleutian islands would still want it further west.
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One rather startling observation --
If the dateline were moved to run straight down from the Bering Straits it would be approximately at 168W longitude --
Guess where this would place the Prime meridian (line 0) --what center would it be close too?
Rome? Rome is 12.5E.
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I previously searched through the EGW CD regarding this topic and placed the results here for all to read:
http://www.maritime-sda-online.com/main/?page_id=100
I underlined the more relevant parts in relation to this topic.
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So, tell us what you think EGW is saying.
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To understand you need to know the history and circumstances that triggered the writing.
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Concerning the EGW quotes:
Between Samoa and Auckland we crossed the day-line, and for the first time in our lives we had a week of six days. Tuesday, December 1, was dropped from our reckoning, and we passed from Monday to Wednesday." {BEcho, January 1, 1892 par. 14}
This is an account of a journey, it is not a prophetic message.
Since they were traveling by ship, they would most likely follow the nautical date line. It was already largely observed in 1892 though it became standard for ships in 1917 at the Anglo-French Conference on Time-keeping at Sea, which recommended that all ships, both military and civilian, adopt hourly standard time zones on the high seas.
The international dateline is not the same as the nautical date line. The international time zones as well as the international dateline are adjusted by the countries affected by them, only rarely do they actually follow the nautical longitude lines.
So the ship EGW was sailing in crossed the dateline and she experienced a six day week. What day did she keep as the Sabbath after experiencing a six day week?
Notice below that Sabbath and Sunday are different (not the same) days.
" Our camp meeting at Adelaide, South Australia, was a success. There was a much larger interest than we had at Armadale, a year ago. You know we had an excellent interest in that place. Sabbath and Sundays the crowd was much larger at Adelaide than at Armadale." 9MR 351
There are other statements by Ellen White showing that she didn't stick to a strict 7 day count after losing one day crossing the dateline and thus started keeping Sunday, NO she accepted the Sabbath as it came to Australia almost a whole day earlier than back in California.
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Is it possible that so much importance can be clustered about those who observe the Sabbath, and yet no one can tell when the Sabbath comes? Then where is the people who bear the badge or the sign of God? What is the sign? The Seventh-day Sabbath, which the Lord blessed and sanctified, and pronounced holy, with great penalties for its violation. {3MR 254.2}
The seventh-day Sabbath is in no uncertainty. It is God’s memorial of His work of Creation. It is set up as a Heaven-given memorial, to be observed as a sign of obedience. God wrote the whole law with His finger on two tables of stone. . . . {3MR 255.1}
Now, my sister, although I am at present sick, I write sitting up in bed to tell you that we are not to give the least credence to the day-line theory. It is a snare of Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday, and God’s remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know where we stand. . . . {3MR 255.2}
My sister, let not your faith fail. We are to stand fast by our colors, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. All those who hold the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end will keep the seventh-day Sabbath, which comes to us as marked by the sun. The fallacy of the day line is a trap of Satan to discourage. I know what I am speaking about. Have faith in God. Shine where you are, as a living stone in God’s building. {3MR 255.3} Aug. 2, 1900.
What was happening around 1900 to cause EGW to write the above?
Here's an article written a few months later:
"The theory is that where Eden was, that marks the place of the true day-line. Every new day should begin there; westward from this point the reckoning should be twenty-four hours in advance of that immediately eastward. In other words, if one of Adam’s sons had taken up his home one mile west of Eden, and another taken his up one mile east, they would needed to have reckoned themselves as living in different days, though living only about two miles apart....
The Eden day-line theory, therefore, is as wide of the mark as it possibly can be. It has neither Bible, common-sense, nor historic facts to support it. It is only one more of the many other like modern delusions and winds of doctrines brought in to evade the cross of keeping the true seventh day Sabbath, to confuse the minds of the simple, and to nullify God’s message for this time. It bears no stamp of truth or divinity about it. It teaches that in all the countries east of Palestine over to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, the people are wrong in their reckoning of the days of the week; that they are one day ahead of time; that what they call Sunday is in reality the seventh day Sabbath, and that therefore the people in India, China, Siberia, the East Indies, Japan, New Guinea, New Caledonia, Australia, Tasmania, New Zealand, and many of the islands of the Pacific should keep Sunday as the true seventh day! The people of all these countries constitute about one half the population of the globe. The Sabbath of the Lord, according to the Bible, is the seal of God; the false Sabbath is the mark of apostasy. If, however, what is called Sunday in these countries is the true Sabbath and seal of God, what, pray tell, is the mark of apostasy? Any doctrine which nullifies to half of the world the very pith and point of the last message God has for the entire world, cannot be of God. It deserves to be consigned to the silent shades of oblivion, as unworthy the serious consideration of any sane, thinking man.
by W. A. COLCORD (The Bible Echo, January 28, 1901)
What we see here is an endevour to do on a large scale, what has been successfully done in Samoa on a small scale.
Insist that the true dateline is not in the Pacific Ocean where it is officially located, but insist the true dateline is clear over in middle east and tell everyone living east of it, that's everyone from Iran to Hawaii that they need to worship on Sunday if they wish to worship on the right day.
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The seventh-day Sabbath is the first part of our name, our most distinguishing marks, and one of our most core doctrines. I assume that the GC has therefor taken a heavy hand in this matter, and dealt decisively with any conference, union, or division that has allowed, or encouraged this most egregious departure from the church. The Bible, the SOP, and the GC in session all completely affirm this as an essential part of being a member or entity in the SDA church. Has Wilson taken some GC Vice Presidents and gone over there to deal with this? An entire country of SDA churches choosing to keep Sunday in direct rebellion to the GC is beyond anything I've ever heard of in this church.
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Ulicia, those last quotes you gave would seem to have a bearing on the question of the lunar Sabbath theory too.
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How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?
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How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?
Long before human rules and standards?
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How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?
Long before human rules and standards?
Both. Before then and after then.
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How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?
Were people traveling around the world prior to 1519 when Magellan's crew made the first such journey recorded in our history books? There is no record of it in the A.D. years. Prior to Columbus landing in America a lot of Europeans thought ships would fall off the edge of the world if they sailed too far from the European/Asian landmass.
The day started in the furtherest eastern landmass of Asia, traveled west over Asia and Europe.
Since the seventh-day Sabbath can be traced back to Christ who was in the tomb on the seventh-day Sabbath and rose on the first day, Sunday, it was carried both east and west by the apostles (as well as the Jews prior to the apostles).
As long as the gospel message was contained on the Asian/European/African landmass, there was no need to adjust for a dateline.
As long as European explorers sailed west when they went to the America's, or east around Africa when they sailed to Asia, they still didn't need or know of a dateline.
So yes, people simply determined what day it was by the rising and setting of the sun.
However, to "assume" that a 'dayline" is simply a "human invention", is just plain ignoring what obviously takes place on a round world. We've explained it a dozen times already. Yet we must be clear -- there is NO question as to what day it is in on any of the continents.
We have enough prophetic evidence to know what day is the Sabbath on all the continents.
We know that to sail from America to Australia results in a "six day week", and to sail back to America results in an "eight day week". Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change. And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.
That a day line exists was discovered when Ferdinand Magellan sailed around the world. And it was confirmed by other later sailors.
Prior to Magellan, explorers had "discovered" that another great ocean lay west of the America's. Europeans (who were after the spices and goods of Asia) started reasoning correctly that this great ocean reached Asia and if they sailed west to America and continued west across the second ocean then they could get to Asia.
Magellan decided to try it! He left Spain in 1519, reached America, sailed through the Straits of Magellan into the Pacific Ocean thinking it was just a short way to Asia. WRONG, it took three months to cross the Pacific. Magellan, himself never made it home, but a few of his crew did, being the first recorded to sail around the world.
But from that time on it became known that sailing across the Pacific cased the sailors to either lose or gain a day, depending on which way they travelled.
For the next 300 or so years there was no official dateline. Alaska, owned by Russia, was aligned with Russian time till America bought it.
The Philippeans, for a short time, were aligned with Mexico (America) time because of Spanish trade from Mexico, but moved back to eastern time in 1844.
The rest of the Southern Pacific Islands were all pretty well aligned with Australian time prior to 1884.
October, 1884
That is the date the international Meridian Conference took place in Washington D.C.
Greenwich England was chosen as the Prime Meridian (longitude 0) From Greenwich the longitudes are marked by degrees both east and west. A globe has 360 degrees, which makes 180th longitude exactly opposite to the prime Meridian. This became the nautical date line. The nautical date line, is not the same as the International Date Line. One is determined by mathematics, the other is determined by countries.
The later 1800's were an era of colonization with heavy american, English and German influence in the Pacific Islands, they one by one aligned themselves with the nautical date line. BUT not Tonga, Tonga had a strong enough government to resist the pressure and refused to change thus continuing to count their days according to eastern time (where all these Islands had been prior to 1884)
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The issue here isn't the absolute location of the dateline.
The issue is Sabbath or Sunday.
Adventists on these Islands are now observing SUNDAY as the Sabbath by decree of the regional Seventh day Adventist church headquarters.
Last Sabbath was August 18,
Did the regular Adventists in Tonga and Somoa worship and rest on August 18, 2012?
No -- they went to church August 19, Sunday, along with every other Protestant and Catholic around the world.
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Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change. And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.
As I find this confusing, I need to do a little bit of research regarding this thought.
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Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change. And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.
As I find this confusing, I need to do a little bit of research regarding this thought.
The change happens ONLY when one crosses the dateline.
Traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia one does not cross the dateline
Traveling from Jerusalem west to America one does not cross the dateline.
But if one travels from Jerusalem east to Australia and continues to travel from Australia east to America they cross the dateline and gain a day.
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The Sabbath keepers in Samoa had another great Sabbath which encouraged the scattered groups from the various Islands. Renting a hall, (they are not allowed to use SDA church facilities) about 400 Sabbath keepers from the various Islands came together for a "youth rally" or "youth camp"
These events (this is the second time they arranged to all meet together) are always a great encouragement to the Sabbath Keepers for many are scattered in tiny groups all over the Islands. When they come together it helps them feel like they belong once again. In spite of the hardships they face they are still seeking to meet the needs of their youth!
May God continue to bless and strengthen them in their stand for Him!
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Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change. And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.
As I find this confusing, I need to do a little bit of research regarding this thought.
The change happens ONLY when one crosses the dateline.
Traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia one does not cross the dateline
Traveling from Jerusalem west to America one does not cross the dateline.
But if one travels from Jerusalem east to Australia and continues to travel from Australia east to America they cross the dateline and gain a day.
Are you, therefore, saying that Jerusalem and Australia are on the same side of the dateline?
Are you, therefore, also saying that Jerusalem and America are also on the same side of the dateline?
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Take your map and lay it out flat (as it is in most books)
On the left side you have the Americas, in the middle you have Europe and Africa, on the right you have Asia, Australia and the Islands.
(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/46160787/sn/356645841/name/world-map.jpg)
This is how most "flat" maps are drawn. There is no dateline on these flat maps BECAUSE the dateline is on the edge.
You can travel across the whole face of this map without crossing the dateline.
From Jerusalem you can travel east to Australia without crossing the dateline
From Jerusalem you can travel west to America without crossing the dateline.
But if you travel from jerusalem east to Australia and then continue (over the edge) across the Pacific Ocean to America you cross the dateline.
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Now look at the time zones on that flat map.
All 24 hours represented on that map!
The day starts at the right edge and ends on the left edge.
So, while a new day is just beginning in Australia, the Old day is still moving across the rest of the planet. Over in Alaska the Old Day still has 23 hours to it.
The right edge is therefore one day ahead of the left edge.
But the world isn't flat. It is a globe.
So we paste the two edges together and have a DATELINE.
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Renting a hall, (they are not allowed to use SDA church facilities) about 400 Sabbath keepers from the various Islands came together for a "youth rally" or "youth camp"
Why can't Seventh-day Adventists use Seventh-day Adventist facilities?
Are any of the Adventist facilities ever rented out to non-Adventist groups? If so, why can't they also be rented out to Adventist groups that keep the Sabbath on Saturday?
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Good question.
But the leaders in the sunday decision feel it would be endorcing "Saturday worship", for them to use the Seventh-day Adventist facilities.
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Thoughts on Pr. Hay's Paper
“The change of ‘Day’ in Samoa
It’s implication for 7th day Sabbath Observance
http://adventist.org.au/assets/340130
Firstly, I commend Pr. Hay for his historic depiction of events leading to the acceptance of the Prime Meridian (line “0”) running through Greenwich, England in the year 1884. Having the general historic outline as well as the scientific reason why a round world needs a day line, affords a rational platform for constructive dialogue on the implications of Sabbath Observance in Samoa.
There are some things I’d like to add to this historic outline. Pr. Hays gives a general historical picture that deals mainly with the mathematical dividing of the earth into time zones governed by longitudes. However, in practice there are two ways this dividing of the earth into time zones is practiced.
1) The Nautical (Sea) time zones
2) The Terrestrial (Land) Time zones
The establishment of nautical standard times, nautical standard time zones and the nautical date line took place at the Anglo-French Conference on Time-keeping at Sea held in London in June 1917. It is the nautical time system that changes the hour at each longitude placed 15 degrees apart. It is also the nautical time system that looks to the 180th meridian as the “dateline”. This system is used by ships on high seas when they communicate their position and time. It was already in use years prior to the "Anglo-French Conference" but now it was "standardized" use.
Terrestrial Time zones follow the nautical time zones only in approximation, not with mathematical precision, as Terrestrial Time can vary by several hours from the mathematical “guide” of the longitudes. For example, China spans five longitudes but the whole country observes the same time, UTC+08:00, or eight hours ahead of Greenwich.
Another example—even though the Prime Meridian (0°) passes through Spain and France, they use time 15 degrees east (Central European Time) or one hour earlier than Greenwich. As we look at any time zone map we see a lot of variations from the nautical time zones all around the world; each country determining for themselves how they will count time within an approximation of their position to the longitudes.
Ships, when they are in harbor accept the terrestrial time Zone.
The 180th longitude is just another longitude that is bent to accommodate the countries near it. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be UTC+13:00, or thirteen hours ahead of Greenwich (which is only one hour variation from their position to the longitudes) yet holds them to the same day as observed by most of their larger neighbors.
The 180 Degree Meridian – It’s Consistency as a Base for Future Time
Pr. Hays wrote:
It seemed remote that the Prime Meridian of Greenwich would be altered or even transferred to another location, having been well supported by the nations. Obviously this would mean that the 180th meridian, halfway round the world would also be a steady and reliable reference line of longitude in the pacific sphere in matters relating to the organization and function of time.”
This assumption concerning the 180th’s function of time may be correct for ships at sea, but it is totally incorrect for terrestrial time zones. These Islands in the Pacific are NOT naturally connected with America. Their “natural connection” is with the Islands in the eastern hemisphere. (i.e.New Zealand, Australia, Fuji, etc.) The original migration to these islands came from the east; the first missionaries came from the east, why even our Seventh-day Adventist Conference places them under the direction of Australia and New Zealand. Why should these Islands be divided by a day line? This is a question the governments in these Islands have been struggling with since the 180th was imposed on them back in the 1890’s.
Pr. Hays gave the history of the moving dateline for Samoa. The first switch in 1892 came due to the pressure of Americans and other colonialists wanting to establish the newly devised time zones. Samoa (along with other Islands east of the 180th) complied, but the Tongan islands resisted and refused the change.
By 1922 Samoa already wanted to return to the original terrestrial time zone, but America interfered. In the last few years we’ve seen a number of these Islands return to their original time zone.
So the obvious conclusion is that the 180th meridian has never been steady or reliable in defining the dateline. It disrupted and divided the Pacific Islands from each other, and now these islands are one by one returning to the same time zone.
Establishing the International Dateline
Dr Hays wrote:
“It is interesting that no actual forthright statement was made, or official report enacted by delegates attending the 1884 IMC, declaring the 180th meridian as the date line all countries were to observe. No binding agreement took place and even up to the present time (2011) none has been enacted by the nations of the world. In the absence of such Pacific nations affected by the path of the 180th meridian line of day change, may make changes in its direction to suit their needs.”
Exactly! Yet, Colonialists put pressure on these Islands to change. Why? Somehow the false idea spread that the islands MUST align themselves to this new situation. We can observe this in the letters of Adventist visitors and missionaries who came to these islands around the 1890’s (at the height of this agitation) as they report back home that everyone on these Islands kept the right Sabbath but called it Sunday. Yet, those London Society Missionaries and Wesleyan Missionaries who taught people to worship on Sunday, were operating on eastern time, and Sunday was truly Sunday. The next day was Monday.
The eastern time zone had been established by Protestant missionaries in these Islands some 60-80 years previous to 1884. They didn’t make a “mistake”, nor did they “fail to realize they crossed the dateline” eighty years prior to the IMC meeting. Coming via Australia they naturally kept the same day on all the Islands they evangelised. Even the ship captains apparently were ignorant of a 180th dateline.
When Adventists came in the 1890’s they wrote their mission reports based on their belief in something that was never officially enacted upon a country by any nation.
Had they understood the above quote from Pr. Hays, we might never have had the precedent of Sunday keeping Adventists in Tonga.
The Inevitable Seventh-day Sabbath choice facing Adventists lying well to the East of the 180th Meridian
Was the choice “inevitable”?
Pr. Hay wrote:
“Early church employees such as the George Tenney family on travelling to Australia and then NZ noticed on 19 May 1888 people in Samoa observing Sunday worship on the seventh day Sabbath. This occurred because following the resolutions of the IMC in 1884, the 180th meridian had become the line where ‘day’ change had taken place and as Samoa lay well to the east of this line the people naturally observed Western Hemisphere Day Sequence.”
In 1888 people in Samoa were still “naturally” following the Eastern Hemisphere time, not western. They didn’t switch to western time till 1892 when two 4th of July’s were celebrated to bring about the switch. There was really nothing “natural” for Adventists to observe Western Day count when everyone else on the Island were observing eastern day count. They were ASSUMING, probably because America and other colonialists were putting on the pressure for the change, that change would come.
Pr. Hay quotes Ellen White’s experience:
“Between Samoa and Auckland we crossed the day line and for the first time in our lives had a week of six days. Tuesday, 1 December was dropped from our reckoning and we passed from Monday to Wednesday. RH 9 Feb. 1892
Ellen White is simply recording her experience, not writing a prophetic message. She was sailing on an American ship that accepted the nautical dateline. They were on “high sea” and the nautical dateline was accepted by many ships as being at the 180th. But the terrestrial dateline at that point in time was still east of Samoa.
Pr. Hay quotes Robert Leo Odom
When the Alameda stopped at Apia in the Samoan islands, the date according to the time count on the ship as Mrs. White’s record indicates was ‘Friday, November 27, 1891...But according to the time count ashore it was Saturday, November 28, 1891...the skipper of the Alameda ignored the erroneous time count and waited three more days—until he reached the 180th meridian – to make the necessary adjustment. (p.221)
Again, the nautical dateline should not be confused with the terrestrial dateline. According to the account the ship stopped at Apia for just a few hours, arriving in the morning and leaving at 1:00 p.m. (BEcho, January 1, 1892 par. 12.)
Ellen White only viewed the island from the ship, she didn’t go ashore. There is no problem with the ship following nautical time.
Pr. Hay presents a few more people who felt the 180th was officially enacted, thus ignoring the local time. But this is only shows the bias that was present in America at the time, not the true time of the islands.
Observing the Seventh-day Sabbath in the Samoan Islands – Choices and Consequences
Pr. Hay presents some “consequences” should Samoan worship on Saturday. (For full quotes see link at top)
1. Adventist Identity Kept in Tact
Worshipping on the 7th day of Eastern hemisphere ‘day’ reckoning would keep the Adventist identity clearly before the people and provide an attractive Biblical alternative to first day Sabbath observers.
Comment:
Yes, this is a key consideration and I’m thankful Pr. Hay brought it out.
To worship on Sunday diminishes the Adventist identity and prophetic message. The first day of the week is given the honor belonging to the Sabbath. And Sunday is recognized as the first day of the week by the population of Samoa.
2. Further possible ‘day’ change. In changing to Eastern Hemisphere Day sequence so as to maintain their distinctive Saturday/Sabbath witness, Adventists are throwing in their lot with government and by doing so are virtually making it difficult for themselves if another ‘day’ change were to occur sometime in the future.
Comment:
This is excusing Sunday worship on a mere supposition. Samoa has returned to the time zone it was in originally. It is the more “natural” time zone for them, when we consider their heritage and the majority of her neighbors. The first change was imposed on them by colonialists (even if the chief of the islands agreed). The second switch was by the nations own choice. The chances of Independent Samoan switching once more are remote. Indeed the chances of American Samoa switching may be greater.
3. Adventists Regarded as loyal and useful citizens
Comment:
That’s a good thing. Why should they live in a confused world setting their own terrestrial dateline, unrecognized by the country they live in or by any other country?
4. Exalting Saturday above the Biblical seventh-day in deciding on which day to observe the Sabbath. One could be persuaded that determining the day for Sabbath is made according to the use of the name Saturday on the calendar rather than according to the Biblical principle of the seventh day as it relates to its position to the longitude emanating from the Prime Meridian in Greenwich.
Comment:
To base Sabbath keeping on the longitude is looking to an imaginary line marked off by man in the last couple centuries of earth’s history as the divine authorization of Biblical time. The Bible does not deal with longitudes. Even the established, recognized terrestrial dateline does not follow the 180th.
However, the name “Saturday” or it’s equivalent in other languages, can be traced and linked to the Biblical “seventh day” clear back to the days of Christ. The name “Sunday” can be traced back to the Biblical “first day” and to Constantine’s “venerable day of the Sun”.
Saturday in Samoa is the same day that Seventh-day Adventists observe in Fiji, New Guinea, New Zealand and Australia. The same sacred hours they observe, Samoa may honestly observe unto the Lord as well.
Many calendars now have Monday in the first space, and Sunday in the seventh space. But Sunday is still not the seventh day. We know the Sabbath by the common name the whole world attached to the Biblical seventh-day, and that name (in the English language) is Saturday.
5. A united witness for the same 7th day Sabbath observance east of the 180th meridian would be weakened. For more than 100 years Samoa has been observing the Seventh-day Sabbath of western ‘day’ reckoning, along with the kingdom of Tonga located at almost the same longitude. Samoa would now observe Sabbath one day earlier being part of Eastern ‘day’ reckoning. The past united witness of observing the same 7th day Sabbath by all island groups located east of the 180th meridian would be weakened. Onlookers and even critics could cite this changed situation as evidence of Adventists confusion over their day of worship.
Comments:
The real problem is now identified by Pr. Hay. The kingdom of Tonga is the problem. They set the precedent and the precedent is very difficult to change. The question should be – is this precedent correct? The Tongan islands have AWAYS (since the week was introduced to them in 1797) maintained the eastern ‘day’ count, but Adventists have been keeping Sunday there these last 120 years. Tonga has never switched the day line, resisting the pressure of the colonialists back in the 1890’s. True, Adventists back in those days thought Tonga should and would switch, so they ignored the local time and followed American time, but the fact remains Tonga NEVER changed their time zone from eastern to western.
And now, because of this mix up in the 1890’s, Island after island in the Pacific is being led into Sunday worship as they too return to the eastern time zone.
Many already have seen Adventists confused over their day of worship because of the practice in Tonga. It is a fact that people laugh at us asking if we’ll all flee to Tonga or Samoa when the Sunday laws are enforced in our countries during the last day crises; because there it will be “OK” to keep Sunday instead of Saturday. It seems far more reasonable to have all Seventh-day Adventists worshipping on Saturday in a consistent worldwide unity.
What will we, in the rest of the world, say when we refuse to observe Sunday as the Sabbath in the last day crises when over in the Pacific it’s not only perfectly alright to do so, but authorized by the church itself? Especially since the world has never officially recognized or enacted the 180th as the terrestrial dateline.
6. Facing up to Samoan luma Possible embarrassment (luma) cultural to a degree, experienced by local Adventists who would need to explain after more than 100 years, apart from calling Saturday the Sabbath, why there was a need to embrace Eastern days. Later on, if government found it convenient to again modify the course fo the IDL would Adventists return to their former practice....
Comment:
Admitting a mistake always brings the fear of embarrassment. But that would pass in time. It will be far harder for Tongan Adventists, than for Samoan Adventists to change. But the question should be – what day does God want me to uphold? It shouldn’t be any harder than for a newly converted Adventist to change to Sabbath (Saturday) observance. They too often face ridicule and embarrasment.
Also – this shouldn’t be based on a future unknown – the chances of Samoa switching again are very remote.
Pr. Hay presents some “consequences” should Samoan worship on Sunday
(the 180th Perspective).
1. Although God did not state the exact location for “day’ change, He does give guidance to nations. For just as he counselled Israel, the Psalmist say in Ps. 67:4 that he will guide the nations of the earth. Even in modern times God’s guidance could have assisted the nations to establish the Prime Meridian with its consequential establishment of the 180th meridian as the location for ‘day’ change. He also blesses when there are many advisors involved in making plans. (Pr. 15:22)
Comment:
Pr. Hay is correct that God did not state the exact location for ‘day’ change, though some Adventist Pioneers like J.N.Andrews and a writer with intials (N.A.D.) have looked at texts like Job 38:12 to show that the day begins at the furtherst tip of habitable land east of Palistine.
I also agree that God has his hand in guiding nations. Though nations tend to do their own thing and God patiently works through their waywardness. I personally firmly believe the “day line” is in the Pacific Ocean. However, the nations have never established the 180th as the official terrestial day line. These nations all recognize the day line is not fixed on any arbitrary straight line, but adjusts to the nations relationships to each other in the Pacific. Thus the logic presented in the above “consequence” should be to accept the officially recognized dateline that places all these Islands in the Eastern Time Zone. The “multitude of advisors” (world wide) is on the officially recognized terrestial dateline, not the 180th meridian.
2. The 180th a firm foundation for Sabbath Change
Now the Sabbath sunset arrives at each meridian in succession, and changes ‘day’ at a well anchored 180th...
Comment:
Looking at my map I see the dateline being pushed further and further east, away from the 180th in the whole south of the equator region. The 180th never was “an anchor for day change in this region and most certainly is not an anchor today., though colonists did try to make it such in the 1890’s.
As to sunset arriving at each meridian in succession, that is unscientific. Clock time can be regulated by longitude, but not sunsets. The precise moments of sunrise and sunset vary not only with longitude but also with latitude north or south of the equator. Thus on a Friday around June 21st along the 180th longitude, those living at the equator would welcome the Sabbath at 6:00 p.m, while those in the antiacrtic would have welcomed the Sabbath shortly after the noon hour, and those living in Siberia would have to wait till 11:00 oclock at night before the Sabbath reached them. Yet all are along the 180th longitude.
3. All Islands on or near the 180th keep the same day.
In actuality this was true prior to the 1890’s when all the Islands were on Eastern Time. The 180th disrupted this situations causing Islands close to each other (like Fiji and Samoa) to be on different days. If all the Islands now west of the terrestrial dateline would accept this official line, there would be far more unity amongst the Islands “keeping the same day” than having some keeping Saturday (west of the 180th) some keeping a day later on Sunday (east of the 180th) and some keeping Saturday where the nautical and terrestrial day lines match.
4. Fastening the Sabbath to an unchanging Meridian
This is the same argument as #2. Though the longitude itself has not changed, it has never been the official terrestrial dateline (even Pr Hay has noted exceptions which even the Adventist church accepts)
5. Observing the same Sabbath presents a united witness. Adventists east of the 180th meridian are providing a united witness by observing the same seventh day Sabbath as the western day sequence...
But it’s not the same Sabbath in the South Pacific. Fiji Adventists observe Saturday, Tongan Adventists, though just an hour away, observe their Sabbath a day later on Sunday. Samoa, instead of now keeping the same day as Fiji which for them is now the world recognized seventh day Saturday, keep Sunday a day later with Tonga.
Yes, I realize this is explained by nautical date line, but that is internationally unrecognized as a terrestrial date line, thus the practice is not really a “united witness”. The reason Adventists from other lands see this is because they have the advantage of seeing how the world reacts to this “witness”. It’s an illusion to think the world is impressed by Seventh-day Adventists sticking to western time in defiance of the officially recognized dateline. It would be a more powerful witness if all the countries west of the official dateline worshipped on Saturday.
It would be a more powerful witness if all Adventists the world over observed the seventh-day on the official seventh day.
6. Western 7th day Sabbath observed for over 100 years....In 1922 when new Zealand wanted Samoa to revert to eastern day sequence, the executive committee...advised Sabbath observers thus:
“To make no change whatever in the observance of the Sabbath as it recurs in the weekly cycle, notwithstanding that the official name of the day may be changed by the Government from Saturday to Sunday.”
..An accompanying letter by Pastor A.W.Anderson...
“The Sabbath keepers in Samoa will simply continue to observe the day they have been observing as the Sabbath without any reference whatsoever to the name which is given officially to that day by the government....the fact that men call Sunday the Sabbath does not make it the Sabbath.”
Yes, the issue goes back a long time. It is “tradition” due to the Tongan precedent. But isn’t that the same argument the Sunday observers around the world make? First day observance goes back a long time, thus it must be correct to observe Sunday, they reason. Remember Sunday was observed by Sunday keeping Protestants in Samoa for about 75 years before Samoa was pulled into the western hemisphere. Protestants in Samoa have simply returned to their original Sunday. Protestants in Tonga have been keeping their FIRST day Sunday for 220 years, with Adventists joining them for the last 120 years.
Is "tradition" our authority?
I had to read the last sentence of A.W.Anderson’s quote several times for it struck me as a complete contradiction to his previous recommendation.
“The fact that men call Sunday the Sabbath does not make it the Sabbath.”
I can only say “AMEN: to that sentence.
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This is an open letter by two men who are very much concerned about the situation in Tonga and Samoa.
It has some interesting Biblical insights into the Saturday vs Sunday issue.
Open Letter to Pastor Nick Kross & Litiana Turner – South Pacific Division of the SDA Church
Thank you for the visit of Litiana to the Church in Dargaville.
The distribution of the World Changer Bibles (WCB) is good to see and we still have an interest in it here in our local Church. However there is an aspect of great concern to our congregation. Please take some time to consider and address this concern.
An inserted explanation on the WCBI
World Changers Bible Institute (WCBI) is an affordable and exciting Bible school designed to equip leaders of all ages for excellence and success in life and ministry. So whether you sense a calling into full time ministry, to be a light in the business world, or to be a leader in your home…these powerful classes are designed to help you grow and be more effective in your Christian life!
Under the present circumstances the Church in Tonga and Samoa will use the Bibles and study guides to teach and entrench Sunday-keeping under the auspices of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
While we continue to support the World Changer project, we should consider
Psalm 127:1, “Unless the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it.
” It would be absurd to implicate “the Lord” in SDA Sunday-keeping for all the biblical reasons given in the WCB study guides. The reality of the Seventh-day Adventist Church keeping Saturday or Sunday as the seventh-day Sabbath is something that our young people should not have to deal with, but they do. Hence our appeal to you.
I think I have uncovered a biblical principle that has not been considered in relation to our keeping of Sunday in some parts of the Pacific. One reference this principle is found in is
Proverbs 20:10 Divers weights, [and] divers measures, both of them [are] alike abomination to the LORD.
This says that diverse weights and diverse measures – both alike – are an abomination unto the Lord. To get a better understanding of the verse, here are the dictionary definitions:
Diverse: different; dissimilar; contradictory; conflicting; opposite; varied.
Abomination: abhorrence; evil; horror; torment; plague; affliction; annoyance; bugbear; loathing; repugnance; disgust; hate; hatred; aversion.
It is easy to understand that dissimilar or varied weights and measures would be an abhorrence or evil to the Lord. They are to mankind as well. Standard weights and measures are necessary for every aspect of life. Proverbs 20:10 is saying that anything other than our standard weights and measures are an abomination. We must use socially accepted scales of weights and measures to understand one another for fair trade, and time-keeping. Contemporary weights and measures are the benchmark of our honesty, appointments and record-keeping.
Sunday-keeping is often challenged by Adventists because of its pagan origin and papal connections. It would be ridiculous to suggest that our SDA brethren in the Pacific keep Sunday because of these influences even though there is no proof of it. I believe this in good faith. Likewise, I believe to shift the IDL to the west of Samoa, creating a six-day week, was not a covert way for the Samoan government to get Adventists to worship on Sunday. We should also accept this in good faith. Adventists were worshiping on Sunday elsewhere prior to December 2011 by their own choice. Furthermore, Seventh-day Adventists are worshiping separately on both Saturday and Sunday by their own free choice in Samoa without any trickery or deceitfulness on the part of the Samoan government.
The evidence is that Adventists in the Pacific keep Sunday as a result of not accepting the IDL as the only authentic measure to separate and name each day. Adventists in Samoa began keeping Sunday because they could not understand or accept having a six-day week in order to assimilate the IDL realignment, when the commandment says, “six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord they God.” Not accepting the IDL realignment by having a six-day week, some of our people in Samoa have strained a gnat and swallowed a camel. The ongoing effect of this action is to worship on Sunday, the first day, instead of Saturday, the seventh, and they sustain their action by fabrications such as:
•“the name of the day changed”
•“it is not a Saturday Sabbath, nor a Sunday Sabbath, but it is the seventh-day Sabbath”
•“A piece of land that cannot move cannot be likened to a traveller crossing the IDL”
These fabrications are reinforced by the demonizing of the IDL by calling it only a “man-made” line. The fact is, all weights and measures throughout history have been man-made. God uses these man-made weights and measures to communicate His will to man, eg: Noah built the ark in cubits; Moses built the sanctuary in cubits; Daniel prophesied about weeks (of years) and “a time, times and the dividing of time;” The Apostle John’s angel messenger measured the holy city in furlongs; and there are many other examples.
For our youth to be united in their World Changer efforts we must try to protect them from the confusion of this Saturday/Sunday argument. We are trying to do this by way of truthful explanations. Without a Saturday Sabbath what significant world change could our youth in Tonga and Samoa make?
The Seventh-day Adventist Church knows that Saturday and Sunday are two different volumes of the substance “time.” So do our youth. We contrast Saturday, the seventh day, with Sunday, the first day of the week, in order to keep the seventh-day Sabbath in most of the world, yet in spite of that knowledge and practice, the Church has upheld Sunday-keeping in Tonga, declaring it to be the same day. This is impossible because Saturday and Sunday are different parts of the same scale of measure. One cannot be the other. Saturday and Sunday are not six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Just because the Church has behaved this way in Tonga for 120 years, and God has not raised up a prophet to draw it to our attention, does not validate the use of this different day – Sunday. Jesus said of the last generation, “If they don’t believe Moses and the prophets, why would they believe though one rose from the dead?” (Luke 16:31). This issue doesn’t need a special prophet, neither should we wait for one.
To use the diverse measure – Sunday instead of Saturday – is disgusting, appalling, horrible, contemptible and loathsome. To do it for 120 years does not make it right. It is still an abomination.
The human hurt of this offensive practice has been explained to me by a brother and sister who were brought up in Tonga as Seventh-day Adventists, where they were taught that Sunday is the seventh-day Sabbath. When they went to Fulton College to further their education, they learned that Saturday is the seventh-day Sabbath. They both say that the excuse for the double standard was the positioning of the international dateline (IDL). Now that they live in New Zealand they want nothing to do with this double standard. Just talking about it with them brings back the distress.
At the recent Pathfinder Camporee in Te Poi, NZ, I met another man from Tonga, where he was raised a Catholic. He had observed that both Catholics and Adventists go to church on Sunday back home. Now married to an Adventist lady he attends church on Saturday. Twice he said he was confused and I could see and hear his distress, so I offered him the excuse of the IDL. He had already heard of that but it obviously did not satisfy him.
Now that they have Bibles, how will the SDA youth in Tonga explain why they keep Sunday, the first day of the week when their Bible says the seventh day is the Sabbath, which is the present-day equivalent of Saturday in their terms of measure? How will these World Changers explain Luke 23:53-24:1 where the Sabbath is the day after the one they call Friday and the day before the one they call Sunday? I know that the Church in Tonga has done it for 120 years, but that only means it has been an abomination for 120 years.
What explanation will the World Changers in Samoa give to their peers as to why most Seventh-day Adventists changed from going to Church on Saturday to going on Sunday while some did not? The calendar didn't change, neither did the name of the day.
In my experience, as a child and teen, I didn't invent the message. I just repeated what I had been told. But I could understand the truth in what I was told using the standard measure. Can we honestly tell our youth that in some islands, like Fiji, the name of the seventh day is Saturday, but in Tonga and Samoa the name is Sunday? Using the standard measure, how can we put such fabrications on the lips of our young people, after putting a Bible in their hands, and expect their trust? Lying lips are also an abomination to the Lord, but those who deal truly are His delight (Prov. 12:22). With the pain of the Sabbath issue in the Pacific, this is good counsel.
I know the respondents, the STM and the SPD, feel that they have acted in good faith, but there is a material and spiritual difference between Saturday and Sunday. First we must find out and accept what is the material difference between Saturday and Sunday, then we can solve this dispute amongst ourselves. Malachi had a similar problem in his day when there was a material difference in what the people were offering to the Lord. This showed their disrespect, according to Malachi.
We can learn from Malachi 1:8. Ask the authority on weights and measures. The governor knows the difference between the old and the new scales and how to convert Fahrenheit to Celsius, feet and inches to metres and centimetres, or even cubits and metres if you ask him. God has put the governor in charge of weights and measures, so ask him which day is the equivalent of the biblical Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday. Malachi says that the material aspect of our honour to God has to be of the same standard you would offer to the governor - period. No ifs or buts. That approach is biblical.
My friend John Wallace and I personally feel the distress of this abomination. It is a contradiction of the seventh-day Sabbath we were baptised into. We have grieved over it ever since we read in the NZ Herald that the Seventh-day Adventist Church in Samoa was going to begin keeping Sunday from January, 2012, because of the realignment of the IDL. The only consolation we got was that there was a small group on the island of Samatau who were not going to change to Sunday but would continue to worship on Saturday.
We have tried to grow that consolation by putting logic and our reputation of Church loyalty on the line for this small group. We provide as much reassurance for these, our brethren, as we can, while giving transparent reasons why the whole Church in Samoa and all the Pacific Island nations should unite in keeping Saturday, the seventh-day Sabbath.
The IDL is the only authoritative measure to establish the volume of international named time for each day of the week, and the present-day equivalent of that measure of time proscribed in Scripture for the seventh-day Sabbath which is now known as Saturday. We need to put blind prejudice aside.
The relief we ask of you is to front up to this dilemma in the Pacific, and do something to protect the World Changers from the abomination of the last 120 years. We trust that this fresh biblical approach is of assistance.
Yours faithfully,
Robert Vincent
John Wallace
Dargaville
New Zealand
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Why do we keep the Sabbath?
We, as Adventists realize there is a great controversy going on. Two powerful forces are trying to get our allegiance. While all of us have at some point in our lives rendered obedience to the enemy we really do not deserve any portion in the kingdom of righteousness and goodness. But Christ, Our Creator and Redeemer has opened the door for us into the heavenly realms if we only believe on Him and walk with Him in the paths of light.
The enemy has a day and a religion (connected to paganism and sun worship) which likes to take on the cloak of Christianity in order to confuse the elect.
The Creator has a day and way of life resulting from abiding with Him and "following the Lamb".
Right now the lines are somewhat blurred, with honest hearted Christians still thinking Sunday is the Lord's day. While in Adventism there are many "cultural Adventists" whose hearts and walk aren't really with the Creator and Savior. But the day will come and is very close, when the issue will be brought to a head.
Mal. 3:18 "Then you shall return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serves God and him that serves him not."
What is happening in Samoa right now is an example of the end time crises.
Sunday will be held up as the right day, following some rationalized reasoning or other. (Just like in Samoa the rationalization is pretty strong causing most Adventists to worship on the same day as all the other Sunday keeping denominations.)
They have lost the meaning of the Sabbath.
The Sabbath is a sign of allegiance either for the Creator or for the other power that claims it is above God's law. To ignore the calendar, the dateline and the name of the day which identifies Sunday, the first day of the week, as the counterfeit "Sabbath" that usurped the authority of God's law and honors the "venerable day of the sun" as Constantine's first Sunday law stated, is to forsake the Creation Sabbath.
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Adventist World Edition
September 2013
http://www.adventistworld.org/issue.php?issue=2013-1009&page=8
President Wilson wrote an article on the importance of the three angels' messages.
Included was a clear statement on Saturday, being the Seventh-day Sabbath.
Thank-you President Wilson for making this clear statement as we have seen the confusion one division has in thinking Sunday is somehow the seventh-day.
Following are a few paragraphs from his article --
CALLED TO PROCLAIM MESSAGES OF LIFE
http://www.adventistworld.org/issue.php?issue=2013-1009&page=8
The first message, found in Revelation
14:6, 7, proclaims Christ’s wonderful
everlasting gospel—salvation
through Christ’s righteousness and
grace—His justifying and sanctifying
power. The same angel announces that
the time of judgment has come upon
the world, and calls people back to the
true worship of God, recognizing Him
as their Creator. The announcement
that we are living in the time of the
judgment is based upon the fulfillment
of the prophecy in Daniel 8:14—after
2,300 years the sanctuary would be
cleansed. Since October 22, 1844, we
have been living in the period of time
known as the investigative or pre-
Advent judgment—the cleansing of the
heavenly sanctuary.
The call to worship God as Creator
automatically places upon all people
the responsibility to observe the day
that honors His creative act. A created
being cannot honor His Creator while
defying the command to keep Saturday,
the Sabbath, the seventh day of the week holy."
There is much more to this excellent article. Click on the link and read the whole article!