Advent Talk

Issues & Concerns Category => Womens Ordination & Related Issues => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on August 02, 2012, 07:20:49 PM

Title: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 02, 2012, 07:20:49 PM
Quote from: Email from Amazing Facts dated August 2, 2012
(http://christorculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/wo-policy-rejection-sm.jpg) (http://christorculture.com/portfolio-view/adventist-union-rejects-world-church-policy-regarding-womens-ordination/)

In spite of a clear and heartfelt appeal from Ted Wilson, world president of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the Columbia Union Conference voted on July 29, 2012, to ordain women as pastors.

This historic action creates a doctrinal rift between the eight Mid-Atlantic conferences and the majority of the world church. Elder Wilson cautioned this divisive vote could produce “many grave consequences” and lead to fragmentation and disunity.

Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.

The Pacific Union Conference is scheduled to consider a similar vote on August 19 in Southern California. If you are opposed to North American Conferences separating theologically from the world church:
  • Please review the material here at Christ or Culture (http://christorculture.com/resources/blog/)
  • Sign the petition (http://christorculture.com/petition/)
  • Forward to loyal SDA friends
The petition and growing body of information will be presented to all the NAD and GC leaders prior to the August 19 vote.

Visit Christ or Culture (http://christorculture.com/) for continuing updates …
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Murcielago on August 02, 2012, 07:54:43 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: SDAminister on August 02, 2012, 08:01:08 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

Murcielago,
I would be interested if you or anyone else could present the documentation on the December 5, 1881 vote where the GC in session approved the ordination of women. This would go a long way towards clearing the air about our church's past history on this issue.
Much thanks,
SDAminister
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Murcielago on August 02, 2012, 08:03:34 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

Murcielago,
I would be interested if you or anyone else could present the documentation on the December 5, 1881 vote where the GC in session approved the ordination of women. This would go a long way towards clearing the air about our church's past history on this issue.
Much thanks,
SDAminister
And how about any documentation regarding EGW, and ither women of that time being ordained pastors? Would that also clear up anything?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 02, 2012, 08:22:59 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

Murcielago,
I would be interested if you or anyone else could present the documentation on the December 5, 1881 vote where the GC in session approved the ordination of women. This would go a long way towards clearing the air about our church's past history on this issue.
Much thanks,
SDAminister
And how about any documentation regarding EGW, and ither women of that time being ordained pastors? Would that also clear up anything?

One of my complaints has been the misinformation going around in support of WO. The alleged 1881 vote is just one example. Out of 40 resolutions presented to that GC Session, the only one not voted was the one in favor of WO. The CUC ad hoc committee report stated that it was actually voted, I pointed out the problem to J. David Newman, he acknowledged the mistake, he wrote the chairman of the committee requesting that the report be corrected, and the report was corrected.

I do not know of one single woman that was ordained, but would appreciate being given some actual names to research the facts about.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gregory on August 02, 2012, 08:24:11 PM
Was Ellen White ordained?

Elle White was given tehe credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She was listed as such in the official records of the denominaiton.  She was never ordained in a public (or private) ceremoney in whichothers laid their hands upon her.

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.


Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.


Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 02, 2012, 08:36:08 PM
Was Ellen White ordained?

Elle White was given tehe credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She was listed as such in the official records of the denominaiton.  She was never ordained in a public (or private) ceremoney in whichothers laid their hands upon her.

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.


Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.


You are ignoring the part where the term ordained was crossed out on one of the her certificates, and also on a form that she had to fill out she put an "X" in the space where it asked if the person was ordained, thus indicating that she did not consider herself an ordained minister.

Is there some reason you left those facts out?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: SDAminister on August 02, 2012, 08:38:19 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

Murcielago,
I would be interested if you or anyone else could present the documentation on the December 5, 1881 vote where the GC in session approved the ordination of women. This would go a long way towards clearing the air about our church's past history on this issue.
Much thanks,
SDAminister
And how about any documentation regarding EGW, and ither women of that time being ordained pastors? Would that also clear up anything?

All documentation helps. But could we start with the 1881 vote please? Otherwise, we are dependent upon what you twice referred to as "my understanding". Question is: How did you come to understand these things?

Go ahead and either have you or someone else show us what happened in 1881. Is it as you say it is?

Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 02, 2012, 08:39:42 PM
Some refer to the wording as it came from the resolutions committee, that it be voted that women could be ordained. As is done on occasions, someone moved that certain items first go through a committee, and that was voted, as I understand it. The other resolutions went through their committees and were approved by the general assembly with the wording from the committees, but the motion of ordaining women never came back to the floor. Some have suggested that the matter is still with the committee. It has often been said that the way to get rid of something is to refer it to a committee, because it can remain there forever.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 02, 2012, 08:42:02 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

Murcielago, these historical points have been discussed ad nauseam on other sites.

You might want to check some of them out before just regurgitating liberal SDA talking points.

See the info in my above post on Ellen White's "ordination".

In December, 1881, the GC definitely did not approve women's ordination.  Check your sources again.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 02, 2012, 08:50:22 PM
Was Ellen White ordained?

Elle White was given tehe credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She was listed as such in the official records of the denominaiton.  She was never ordained in a public (or private) ceremoney in whichothers laid their hands upon her.

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.


Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.


You are ignoring the part where the term ordained was crossed out on one of the her certificates, and also on a form that she had to fill out she put an "X" in the space where it asked if the person was ordained, thus indicating that she did not consider herself an ordained minister.

Is there some reason you left those facts out?

The card where the word "ordained" is crossed out, is one exhibition at Elmshaven, where I saw it last time I was there. It is remarkable, that while other items on this card is filled in with ink, the word ordained has a very thin line over it, not in ink like the other items, but a very weak pencil. Since nothing is crossed out on the other two copies still available of the card, there is a strong suspicion that that pencil line has been added at a much later date.

EGW has written elsewhere when and where she was ordained by God.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Murcielago on August 02, 2012, 10:04:59 PM
Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.

Murcielago, these historical points have been discussed ad nauseam on other sites.

You might want to check some of them out before just regurgitating liberal SDA talking points.

See the info in my above post on Ellen White's "ordination".

In December, 1881, the GC definitely did not approve women's ordination.  Check your sources again.
I will.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: christian on August 02, 2012, 11:20:43 PM
Was Ellen White ordained?

Elle White was given tehe credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She was listed as such in the official records of the denominaiton.  She was never ordained in a public (or private) ceremoney in whichothers laid their hands upon her.

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.


Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.


You are ignoring the part where the term ordained was crossed out on one of the her certificates, and also on a form that she had to fill out she put an "X" in the space where it asked if the person was ordained, thus indicating that she did not consider herself an ordained minister.

Is there some reason you left those facts out?

The card where the word "ordained" is crossed out, is one exhibition at Elmshaven, where I saw it last time I was there. It is remarkable, that while other items on this card is filled in with ink, the word ordained has a very thin line over it, not in ink like the other items, but a very weak pencil. Since nothing is crossed out on the other two copies still available of the card, there is a strong suspicion that that pencil line has been added at a much later date.

EGW has written elsewhere when and where she was ordained by God.
So let me understand this properly if I might. Evil men in the conference years later marked out the word ordained, to keep women from being ordained at a later date? Dog if only they had used an thick ink instead of a pencil. Do you have any idea who did this dastardly deed?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gregory on August 03, 2012, 02:27:11 AM
Artiste asked:
Quote
You are ignoring the part where the term ordained was crossed out on one of the her certificates, and also on a form that she had to fill out she put an "X" in the space where it asked if the person was ordained, thus indicating that she did not consider herself an ordained minister.

Is there some reason you left those facts out?

You correctly say that the word "ordained" is crossed out on one of the credentials that exists.  It is not known as to who crossed that word out.  Ther is no evidence to support the idea that EGW crossed it out.  Just as there is no evidence to suplport the idea that someone else crossed it out.  Someone, who is not knwon crossed it out.  That is all we know.

So, as ther is no evidence as to who crossed it ou, the fact that it is crossed out has little to know value.  Probably the best that could be said is that some unknown person wanted to make a statement that EGW asas not ordained.  IOW, they took the position that as she was not ordained in a ceremony where people laid hands on her, she was not ordained in their thinking.

Also, we donot know the time when that word was crossed out.  It could have been crossed out after her deathl.

What we do know is that the word "ordained" was crossed out on only one of the cirtificates that we have.  It was not crosssed out on any of the others, of which I beleive we have two.  So, if you say that EGW crossed it out, I would ask you why did she not cross that word out out on the others?

Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gregory on August 03, 2012, 02:35:07 AM
Christian asked:
Quote
So let me understand this properly if I might. Evil men in the conference years later marked out the word ordained, to keep women from being ordained at a later date? Dog if only they had used an thick ink instead of a pencil. Do you have any idea who did this dastardly deed?

In my opinion, there is to much attributing malice and evil intent in the posts that are being made here.

Let us say that someone other than EGW crossed the word"ordained" out on the one certificate of the three (?) that we have.  O.K., so what?   If that happened, there is no evidence to support the idea that the person who did it was evil.  In fact, there is no evidence to support the idea that the one who did it was a male.  It could have been a female.  There is no evidence to support the idea that the one who did  it did so in an attempt to keep women from being ordained in 2012, or any other time.

Whoever did it could simply have done so because they personally believed that she was not ordained.

Folks, we ned to stop attributing malice and evil when there is no evidence to support the idea of malice and evil.


Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 03, 2012, 05:06:20 AM
So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.

Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.

I don't think side 1 has valid points.

Ordained by whom? She herself wrote that God ordained her in the city of Portland, which would refer to her call to the prophetic ministry around December 1844 via a vision.

Ordained for what office? Prophet.

If anyone on side 1 wants to use the ordination certificates to support WO, then they really ought to cough up at least one example of Ellen White performing at least one of the functions of an ordained minister of the gospel. Did she ever organize a church? Did she ever baptize?

To all appearances, Ellen White was content in the role God had called her to, and did not seek to assume the roles of those given other gifts of the Spirit.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 03, 2012, 05:10:24 AM
Quote from: http://www.adventistsaffirm.org/article/143/women-s-ordination-faqs/9-ellen-g-white-and-the-ministry-of-women
Was Ellen White Herself Ordained?

There is no record of Ellen White ever having been ordained by human hands. Yet from 1871 until her death she was granted ministerial credentials by various organizations of the church. The certificate that was used read ?Ordained Minister.? Several other credential certificates from the mid-1880s are still in our possession. On the one from 1885 the word ordained is neatly struck out. On the 1887 certificate, the next one we have, it is not.

Had she been ordained in the interim? Some have argued that she had. But the question is settled definitely by her own hand. In 1909 she filled out a ?Biographical Information Blank? for the General Conference records. On the blank for item 19, which asks, ?If ordained, state when, where, and by whom,? she simply inscribed an X. This is the same response she made to item 26, which asked, ?If remarried, give date, and to whom.? In this way she indicated that she had never remarried, nor had she ever been ordained. She was not denying that God had chosen and equipped her, but she indicated that there had never been an ordination ceremony carried out for her. 29

Why then do some of her credentials say ?ordained minister?? The fact that ?ordained? was sometimes crossed out highlights the awkwardness of giving credentials to a prophet. The church has no such special category of credentials. So it utilized what it had, giving its highest credentials without performing an ordination ceremony. In actuality, the prophet needed no human credentials. She functioned for more than 25 years prior to 1871 without any.

Thus in 1909 Ellen White denied having ever been ordained.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 03, 2012, 08:22:30 AM
I'd say the ordination certificate of Ellen White in Elmshaven is a 4x6 card, pre-printed "ordained" pastor or minister

There are two such cards available where  the word "ordained" was not crossed out, so we have a two to one evidence the brethren regarded her as ordained. And we have a third where the word "ordained" has been crossed out by pencil.

Before I was ordained I received a card where the word "Ordained" was never on the card.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: SDAminister on August 03, 2012, 09:58:07 AM
Was Ellen White ordained?

Elle White was given tehe credentials of an ordained minister for years.  She was listed as such in the official records of the denominaiton.  She was never ordained in a public (or private) ceremoney in whichothers laid their hands upon her.

So, those are the facts.  Nowthe question is, how do you intrepret them.

1)  I say she was ordained because she had the credentials.

2) Others say she was not because there never was any kind of a ceremoney in which people laid hands upon her.


Take your pick.  Both sides have valid points.


You are ignoring the part where the term ordained was crossed out on one of the her certificates, and also on a form that she had to fill out she put an "X" in the space where it asked if the person was ordained, thus indicating that she did not consider herself an ordained minister.

Is there some reason you left those facts out?

The card where the word "ordained" is crossed out, is one exhibition at Elmshaven, where I saw it last time I was there. It is remarkable, that while other items on this card is filled in with ink, the word ordained has a very thin line over it, not in ink like the other items, but a very weak pencil. Since nothing is crossed out on the other two copies still available of the card, there is a strong suspicion that that pencil line has been added at a much later date.

EGW has written elsewhere when and where she was ordained by God.

Johann,
I was at Elmshaven just a few months ago. The card on display with "ordained" crossed out is not as you describe it. There is not a "very thin line over it". Rather, each letter in the word "ordained" is crossed out individually with a diagonal stroke.
Perhaps you saw something different than the one on display?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gailon Arthur Joy on August 03, 2012, 12:53:31 PM
The church leadership recognized the Ordination of Ellen G. White "by the Holy Spirit" and and gave her credentials for the pulpit. At no point did she participate in an ordination ceremony as the recipient of the "laying on of hands". Anyone here qualified???

There is a baseless rumor spread by clearly agenda driven subversives that the 1881 General Conference adopted the "Ordination of Women". In fact, the issue was on the agenda and was referred back to the General Conference Executive Committee for study. It was never adopted and in fact never came up again for nearly 83 years in Austria, and was soundly defeated as un-biblical.

There are many well studied treatises on the role of women in the church, including one on Amazing Facts. Un-biblical has still not changed!!!

The point is the Headline is in Fact ACCURATE and puts that Union at odds with the decisions of the General Conference in Session.

This is an outright rebellion against properly constituted church authority and creates a congregational church. If this is not challenged head on as the "Tip of The Iceburg" that it is, then we should absolutely be required to apologize to "Certain Private Organizations" that were the subject of "Issues..." of 1991, including "Hartland Institute, Hope International, Steps to Life (John Grossball), Modern Manna Ministries (Danny Viera) and John Osborne."

And any entity will be free to exercise private opinion and establish a "congregational" church organization with no unity of purpose, no unity of Faith and no unity in the Spirit. In fact, the seventh Christian Church would see it's history simply end and from the fractured ashes would arise the Phoenix of the Remnant to give the Loud Cry message, our institutions having been swept into the tides of history, millions abandoning the church of the "Ten Commandments and the Faith of Jesus"... as we plunge into the dark ages of modern christianity with no organization to fight the adoption of a National Sunday Law and the eventual death decree that will most certainly have to come!!!

And the remnant will cry out "Lo, come Lord Jesus" and the congregational ex-adventists will be "left behind".

These are solemn times and the eschatology of Ellen G. White unfolds before our eyes...cling to the spirit of the  organized church and to the Saviour that is it's husband, lest we "fall away" and be lost. So close, yet so far and "Paradise Lost"!!! Not the ending we really want if we embrace spirit of this  rebellion.

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
 

Founded in part by Ellen White, the Adventist Church has always supported women being active in a broad spectrum of ministry. Yet the Sunday vote represents a major departure from the historic Adventist position that the Scriptures only support men being ordained as pastors.
Is Amazing Facts being entirely honest in this statement? From my understanding of church history, the SDA church historically ordained women, including Ellen White, and this practice continued until after her death. It is also my understanding that on December 5, 1881, the GC in session approved the ordination of women. It would then seem that Amazing Facts has their information inverted.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Murcielago on August 03, 2012, 01:15:30 PM
I see...
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gailon Arthur Joy on August 03, 2012, 01:27:26 PM
I pray that this is so!!!
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 03, 2012, 02:56:01 PM
Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness. {RH July 9, 1895, par. 8}
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gregory on August 03, 2012, 08:39:49 PM
Adventist News Network in a program onHope TV has announced to the world the action of the Columbia Union Conference to ordain irregardless of gender.  The announcement was fair and mentioned the Biblical study currently underway.

Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 03, 2012, 09:26:20 PM
Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness. {RH July 9, 1895, par. 8}

No one that I know of objects to ordaining women to do what is described above, namely, to do the work of a deaconess.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 03, 2012, 09:31:13 PM
Adventist News Network in a program onHope TV has announced to the world the action of the Columbia Union Conference to ordain irregardless of gender.  The announcement was fair and mentioned the Biblical study currently underway.

A quick check of the comments so far under that topic in ANN's website shows a majority of about 65% expressing varying degrees of sadness and dismay over the CUC vote.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 03, 2012, 09:36:28 PM
Also the petition on the Christ or Culture site against women's ordination in the Pacific Union Conference has quickly shot up to over 6,000 in the last several days.

Obviously a reaction to the CUC vote?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 04, 2012, 05:33:33 AM
Also the petition on the Christ or Culture site against women's ordination in the Pacific Union Conference has quickly shot up to over 6,000 in the last several days.

Obviously a reaction to the CUC vote?

Perhaps?

 :sabbath:
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on August 04, 2012, 10:44:55 AM
This is a very heavy and divisive topic in the SDA Church.

I am still digesting that union's vote myself.

Whew!!!!!
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Snoopy on August 04, 2012, 01:16:59 PM
This is a very heavy and divisive topic in the SDA Church.

I am still digesting that union's vote myself.

Whew!!!!!

I agree, Daryl.  By the way - good to see you here!!
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Gailon Arthur Joy on August 04, 2012, 08:50:13 PM
Do we interpret this to mean it is deemed politically correct to the satisfaction of the theological left???

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Adventist News Network in a program onHope TV has announced to the world the action of the Columbia Union Conference to ordain irregardless of gender.  The announcement was fair and mentioned the Biblical study currently underway.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 04, 2012, 08:53:39 PM
Do we interpret this to mean it is deemed politically correct to the satisfaction of the theological left???

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

Adventist News Network in a program onHope TV has announced to the world the action of the Columbia Union Conference to ordain irregardless of gender.  The announcement was fair and mentioned the Biblical study currently underway.
Is this how you interpret it?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on August 06, 2012, 04:21:40 PM
The WO issue is definitely a divisive issue, however, right now I am more concerned over the action of a few Unions over their voting to go against present GC church policy, not only in relation to the WO issue but any other issue that they may one day disagree with in relation to GC church policy.

The action of these Unions is opening up a can of worms that may affect the integrity of the SDA Church's organizational structure, if the GC doesn't make an appropriate response, as they eventually did in relation to the NAD action that was declared null and void by the NAD President.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Murcielago on August 06, 2012, 04:27:16 PM
The WO issue is definitely a divisive issue, however, right now I am more concerned over the action of a few Unions over their voting to go against present GC church policy, not only in relation to the WO issue but any other issue that they may one day disagree with in relation to GC church policy.

The action of these Unions is opening up a can of worms that may affect the integrity of the SDA Church's organizational structure, if the GC doesn't make an appropriate response, as they eventually did in relation to the NAD action that was declared null and void by the NAD President.
What action was that?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on August 06, 2012, 04:32:19 PM
The WO issue is definitely a divisive issue, however, right now I am more concerned over the action of a few Unions over their voting to go against present GC church policy, not only in relation to the WO issue but any other issue that they may one day disagree with in relation to GC church policy.

The action of these Unions is opening up a can of worms that may affect the integrity of the SDA Church's organizational structure, if the GC doesn't make an appropriate response, as they eventually did in relation to the NAD action that was declared null and void by the NAD President.
What action was that?

The action of the Columbia Union and the German Union, which I wasn't even aware about, and need to do a google regarding their action.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 06, 2012, 07:29:05 PM
The WO issue is definitely a divisive issue, however, right now I am more concerned over the action of a few Unions over their voting to go against present GC church policy, not only in relation to the WO issue but any other issue that they may one day disagree with in relation to GC church policy.

The action of these Unions is opening up a can of worms that may affect the integrity of the SDA Church's organizational structure, if the GC doesn't make an appropriate response, as they eventually did in relation to the NAD action that was declared null and void by the NAD President.
What action was that?

The NAD action was last fall. It concerned affirming the NAD's variant wording of the E 60 policy, which says that commissioned ministers, not just ordained ministers, can serve as conference and mission presidents. Why? So that women can serve as conference and mission presidents.

Dan Jackson's January 2012 letter informed church leadership and members that that decision had to be rescinded, since it was contrary to GC policy, since the NAD is but a part of the GC. That then led to all the current agitation over WO.

When I first read about the NAD action, I just couldn't believe it. The NAD had requested the GC at annual council a little earlier to permit the NAD to have that altered E 60 policy, and annual council had said no. Then, the NAD voted to do it away.

What would you have thought if you had a child that acted that way after you said no?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 06, 2012, 07:45:00 PM
Didn't Dan Jackson, after that, indicate somehow that they would just keep trying in another way?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on August 11, 2012, 06:35:34 PM
Link to session video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/YOo-mhNdpis
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 11, 2012, 06:39:43 PM
Thanks for the link, Daryl.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 11, 2012, 06:44:50 PM
I was completely puzzled by Dan Jackson's presentation at the CUC constituency meeting.  He spoke with emotion and depth, with nice arm gestures and using Bible texts, but I couldn't see how what he said had to do with the topic they were voting on.

They did say that he was giving his counsel on the matter.

Possibly just "counsel" that could go either way.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on August 11, 2012, 06:46:40 PM
Elder Wilson, on the other hand, spoke directly to them and pleaded over and over with them not to carry out their objective.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 11, 2012, 07:52:01 PM
The action of the . . . German Union, which I wasn't even aware about, and need to do a google regarding their action.

The North German Union came first - in April. The president stated they were forced to this do this because they would break federal laws of Germany if they didn't do it. He also made it clear that the General Conference had never had any theological objections to ordaining women.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 12, 2012, 05:42:18 AM
The action of the . . . German Union, which I wasn't even aware about, and need to do a google regarding their action.

The North German Union came first - in April. The president stated they were forced to this do this because they would break federal laws of Germany if they didn't do it. He also made it clear that the General Conference had never had any theological objections to ordaining women.

Johann, could you share with us what federal law in Germany prohibits us from recognizing and implementing the roles of men and women as outlined in Scripture?

When it comes time for Germany to mandate Sunday rest and prohibit Sabbath worship, will the North German Union follow suit since they have now set a precedent that they place human laws above Scriptural mandates?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 13, 2012, 04:04:58 PM
The action of the . . . German Union, which I wasn't even aware about, and need to do a google regarding their action.

The North German Union came first - in April. The president stated they were forced to this do this because they would break federal laws of Germany if they didn't do it. He also made it clear that the General Conference had never had any theological objections to ordaining women.

Johann, could you share with us what federal law in Germany prohibits us from recognizing and implementing the roles of men and women as outlined in Scripture?

When it comes time for Germany to mandate Sunday rest and prohibit Sabbath worship, will the North German Union follow suit since they have now set a precedent that they place human laws above Scriptural mandates?

Just today I read again a verification that the total General Conference does not find anything in Scripture nor the Spirit of Prophecy which goes against the ordination of women. Yes, they want the unions to wait another year or so for the sake of unity. There could be certain individuals there who agree with you, I do not know, but there is no such majority, according to an inside source.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Dedication on August 13, 2012, 07:32:46 PM
I think Johann is correct.
That America and western Europe is for women's ordination, including the officers in the General Conference.
The hold up is in getting all the delagates from around the world to agree.

Even though some greatly appreciated the Presidents message and stand against the Columbia Union's vote, there is one thing I'm not sure they noticed.

There was absolutely NOTHING in the president's speech to indicate that he was against ordaining women, or that the Columbia Union's motion was going against God or against scripture.   None of those issues were mentioned by the president as reasons for them to reconsider their aim and purpose for the constituency meeting.

The reason for his appeal was based solely on the fact that according to church policies, and GC votes that determined those policies current,  they had no legal right to make such a motion.  Their motion was "out of order" according to the church's constitutional policies.  His appeal was to wait and allow "due process" to move forward.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Murcielago on August 13, 2012, 08:00:40 PM
I heard the same today from a Conf sec from south America. No evidence to disprove WO, but no-votes keeping it on the back burner until a consensus can be reached to allow it in the fields that vote for it. I was told that the no votes from the areas this person represents were based on ancient cultural stigmas on women from the native religions of that area, and traditional stigmas from their 500 year old Catholic background.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 15, 2012, 07:42:36 PM
There was absolutely NOTHING in the president's speech to indicate that he was against ordaining women, or that the Columbia Union's motion was going against God or against scripture.   None of those issues were mentioned by the president as reasons for them to reconsider their aim and purpose for the constituency meeting.

The reason for his appeal was based solely on the fact that according to church policies, and GC votes that determined those policies current,  they had no legal right to make such a motion.  Their motion was "out of order" according to the church's constitutional policies.  His appeal was to wait and allow "due process" to move forward.

I don't think we should read too much into that.

Our local church passed a statement which said pretty much the same, in March or April, in time to get on the conference constituency agenda. There are pro-WO folks who are anti-move-forward-now because they view the present agitation as rebellion. Our statement was something that pro-WO folks of this type and anti-WO folks could agree upon because we left out arguments against WO.

But we did point out the necessity of establishing from inspiration that WO is permissible, and gave that necessity as a reason to wait. The study commission process is something that should be able to produce biblical arguments in favor of WO if such is possible.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on August 16, 2012, 06:08:53 AM
It is the rebellion aspect of these Unions that bother me more than anything else.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 21, 2012, 12:31:52 AM
It is the rebellion aspect of these Unions that bother me more than anything else.

It's been a few years now since I was 9 years old and attended church school. A few weeks into my third grade I had to stay in bed a few days with fever and some kind of a bug, but my mind was clear, I loved arithmetic, so I spent most of  my time in bed figuring out how to solve most of the problems found in the textbook, and I wrote down the solutions. This way I got far ahead of my classmates, and somehow it stayed  that way in most subjects through all the grades. It happened because I broke the "rules" and did more homework than prescribed. My teacher was understanding and during my final year in grade school he provided me with a textbook for math in high school. This made it possible for me to skip three years of school, and thereby I broke the rules for public education, because I stayed out of school for a whole years when the rules required my school attendance. Then a school principal permitted me to attend classes together with the 10th grade whenever I could find a ride the 10 miles to school, which was usually two or three days a week. I was the youngest kid in class, and here I had to compete with two brilliant sisters who managed to get ahead of me in grades. It saddens me that one of these suffers from Alzheimer's today.

Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Yes, I might have enjoyed several more years in school and learned some things I still haven't learned if I had followed the rules. Is that the reason some people feel that the three unions should not be permitted to advance where they feel the Lord is leading?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 21, 2012, 05:18:23 AM
Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Johann,

The Zwickau prophets spoke in similar terms. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? They can't just assert that without some sort of evidence, and use that mere assertion to undermine gospel order in the church, order which the Holy Spirit really did lead in establishing.

So where is the evidence?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Johann on August 21, 2012, 01:37:50 PM
Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Johann,

The Zwickau prophets spoke in similar terms. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? They can't just assert that without some sort of evidence, and use that mere assertion to undermine gospel order in the church, order which the Holy Spirit really did lead in establishing.

So where is the evidence?

Is there no "Gospel Orders" in Gospel Workers or elsewhere?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on August 21, 2012, 02:29:11 PM
Why am I telling my own story in this connection? It is because I was reminded of it when I listened to the discussions at the PUC meeting Sunday. Several of the speakers expressed they were held back from following the leading of the Holy Spirit by rules as interpreted by human agents.

Johann,

The Zwickau prophets spoke in similar terms. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? They can't just assert that without some sort of evidence, and use that mere assertion to undermine gospel order in the church, order which the Holy Spirit really did lead in establishing.

So where is the evidence?

Is there no "Gospel Orders" in Gospel Workers or elsewhere?

I don't see how you answered my question. What is their evidence of the Holy Spirit truly leading? How do we know that their supposed inspiration is any sounder than that of the Zwickau prophets? What is their evidence?

Jim Gilley told me that God had told him "in seasons of the night" not to look into the past when he took the position of president at 3ABN. It's a manipulation tactic to say, "God told me, so you better back off and not meddle." Gilley provided me with not one shred of evidence that God had given him a dream or vision telling him not to deal with Danny's cover up Tommy's pedophilia, Danny's unbiblical divorce, Nick Miller's ouster, Danny's private inurement, Danny's perjury, etc. And personally, I don't think he had any such vision or dream.

So where is the evidence, Johann?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Battle Creek on October 30, 2012, 11:17:20 AM
The Value of the Church Policy

Recently I was talking to the treasurer of a union which is in good and regular standing after these upheavals. He was telling me that his union was about $8,000,000 in debt right now, and he had no idea where to get the money from.

We talked about members from other fields sending their tithes to this union. He said it was against policy for him to ask people to do that, because  the policy states that all church members are to pay their tithes to the field where they have their membership, and it is also expected that the membership is in your local church.

But on the other hand there are many Adventists who send their tithes to struggling fields they know need the funds more than their own conference. This does not mean they are opposed to their own leaders, just that they know the financial needs are much greater elsewhere.

The General Conference knows that these things are taking place, so why are they not stopping this "rebellion" against the existing policies?

That is because the General Conference realizes that policies are meant as guidelines, and not as an unchangeable law of operations.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on October 30, 2012, 04:17:53 PM
Could you quote the specific policies you are referring to? Thanks.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on October 30, 2012, 04:58:00 PM
I would also be interested in a quote of those specific policies.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Battle Creek on October 31, 2012, 02:46:34 AM
No specific part of a policy book was mentioned. Just a general principle.

I know of an instance where local mission presidents asked a pastor to write an article about certain needs in his historic church. As a result a private donor sent funds from another country to cover the expenses needed to repair the church. Somehow the policy conscious division president discovered the transfer of these funds. At the next General Conference session this president met the "offending" pastor and let him know he had broken the policy by soliciting unauthorized funds, and if he would ever do that again he would be fired. He added an account of great plans he had for the future in his division.

A few hours later a new division president was elected and the old one was without a job. He told that pastor of his great disappointment. Some claimed it was because he was too strict when enforcing the policies.

Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on October 31, 2012, 04:27:00 AM
If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, then there really is no way to accuse anyone of rebelling against anything.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Battle Creek on October 31, 2012, 02:46:21 PM
If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, then there really is no way to accuse anyone of rebelling against anything.

So? ?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on October 31, 2012, 03:14:57 PM
If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, then there really is no way to accuse anyone of rebelling against anything.

So? ?

Your earlier post had stated:

The Value of the Church Policy

...

The General Conference knows that these things are taking place, so why are they not stopping this "rebellion" against the existing policies?

If there is no specific policy or inspired statement, there is no "rebellion" "against the existing policies" for the GC or anyone else to stop. That is clear.

We need the specific policy that covers the topic in question in order to discuss whether or not there really is rebellion going on.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on October 31, 2012, 04:21:16 PM
According to the GC Working Policy, this is how the tithe is to be paid:
Quote
V 05 20 Tithe to Local Church — The tithe is to be turned in to the local church in which membership is held. An exception to this policy may be made in regard to the tithe of denominational employees, as determined by the division committee.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on October 31, 2012, 06:56:10 PM
According to the GC Working Policy, this is how the tithe is to be paid:
Quote
V 05 20 Tithe to Local Church — The tithe is to be turned in to the local church in which membership is held. An exception to this policy may be made in regard to the tithe of denominational employees, as determined by the division committee.

I see tithe is supposed to be paid through the local church...however in practice, it does not have to be done that way at all.

I haven't had the experience of tithe not being accepted when paid through other entities.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on November 01, 2012, 07:40:41 AM
Quote
V 05 10 Scriptural Obligation—Although tithing is not considered a test of fellowship, it is recognized as a scriptural obligation that every believer owes to God and as an essential in claiming by faith the fullness of blessing in Christian life and experience.

In order for a person who is not returning their tithe to the local church where there membership is held to be disciplined for "rebellion" against the policy you quoted, Daryl, the above policy would have to be changed in order to make tithing a test of fellowship. If it isn't a test of fellowship, then someone can't be disciplined over it. Correct?

Note also how V 05 25 states that students are supposed to turn in their tithe to the local church where they are going to school. While the same policy recommends that the students transfer their membership to that church, it seems that students are being encouraged to return their tithe to that church whether or not they transfer their membership.

Really, it seems that making V 05 20 (returning tithe to the local church) a hard and fast rule under any and every circumstance would prohibit what Ellen White did: Sending her tithe and the tithe of others to needy, neglected fields. She certainly didn't recommend sending tithe to other fields like that, but she did do it sometimes.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on November 01, 2012, 08:01:27 AM
That's right, tithing isn't a test of fellowship, is it?

But most Adventists tithe...or a lot do...
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 01, 2012, 03:39:32 PM
Tithing may not be a test of fellowship, however, it is supposed to be a sort of a test of leadership, although I don't think that happens in very many churches.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Bob Pickle on November 01, 2012, 04:22:34 PM
Yes, it is supposed to be a test of leadership, and it is supposed to be a test of employment.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: SDAminister on November 02, 2012, 07:29:12 PM
Yes, it is supposed to be a test of leadership, and it is supposed to be a test of employment.

...and a test of holding any church office.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on November 02, 2012, 10:51:28 PM
Well my impression is, that's not followed, at least in this part of the country!
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 04, 2012, 06:09:33 PM
Seems like the Dutch (Holland) SDA Union has also voted to ordain women as pastors.

This is the second union in Europe.

This is even after the Annual Council Statement.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on November 05, 2012, 12:59:35 AM
Seems like the Dutch (Holland) SDA Union has also voted to ordain women as pastors.

This is the second union in Europe.

This is even after the Annual Council Statement.

I hadn't hear that.  Did any of the blogs or Adventist online sites mention it?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 05, 2012, 04:20:43 AM
It was Johann who informed us about it over at Maritime.

Will now need to see if it can be verified from other sources.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on November 05, 2012, 05:16:19 AM
I googled the topic and found nothing whatsoever on the subject.

Johann, with all due respect, has not been proven to be the most reliable source of information (and not only because he has been such a strong and constant advocate of WO).

But if it's true, some news about it should be out shortly.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 05, 2012, 05:28:44 AM
Johann just posted the following over at Mariitme:
Quote from: Johann over at Maritime
It appears like the Dutch are still discussing how to implement the ordination - today. It seems like they want it implemented not later than 6 months after the next GC session in 2015.
That is more in line with the North German Union.

There is still the issue with the other two Unions that are still obviously in rebellion.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on November 05, 2012, 06:19:35 AM
So the Dutch are discussing women's ordination...

That's not the same as voting it in.  The North German Union actually voted it in.

Which was it, Daryl?  Discussing or voting?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 05, 2012, 06:28:43 AM
From my understanding, they voted to do it, but are now discussing about when to implement it.

From their Union web site, it seems their Union Sessions will be continued next Sunday.

http://www.adventist.nl/?q=node/2754/mpath/88/rpath/88

Google translates it into English.

I still haven't anything specific to this anywhere yet, therefore, this is all based on the information supplied by Johann.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 05, 2012, 06:57:59 AM
Johann informed us over at Maritime that he received this information by email from friends.

He also said that there is bound to be something official when the meetings are finished.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Artiste on November 05, 2012, 07:35:53 AM
Do we really have to listen here on AdventTalk to information supplied by Johann...that information has been frequently unreliable in the past...  (Can't he be contained on chat sites elsewhere?)
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 05, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
I won't quote him or say anything about it any further here.

I only posted it here as it was something new.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Snoopy on November 05, 2012, 10:14:36 PM
I won't quote him or say anything about it any further here.

I only posted it here as it was something new.

Good for you, Daryl.

Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 13, 2012, 05:55:31 PM
A private report from the Dutch Union Secretary:

Quote
The Road to Women's Ordination in the Netherlands
12 November 2012 | Tom de Bruin


Yesterday, after a long and complicated journey towards the acceptance of fundamental equality between the sexes, the Netherlands Union Conference joined three other unions worldwide in supporting the ordination of women.

As an ordained male pastor I have no direct stake in the argument, yet this is an issue in which I have always felt personally involved, and on which I cannot conscientiously remain silent. As a church it is our responsibility to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves, and as Christians it is our moral duty to speak out where we see our fellows treated unjustly. Having grown up in South Africa during the years of apartheid, I witnessed institutionalised injustice first-hand. Discrimination is wrong no matter what form it takes, and I cannot see any fundamental difference between how the church treats women (as less than men), and how South Africa treated black Africans (as less than white Europeans).

For this reason, in May 2012 Remco Dingjan and I submitted a motion from our area to ask the Netherlands Union Conference to begin ordaining women as of January 1st, 2013. Many of the local delegates from the middle of the Netherlands, which includes some of the largest churches in the country, suggested that they would support this motion whole-heartedly.

At this time the only Adventist constitution that had voted to ordain women was in Germany, and most delegates had no idea of the events that were to take place in the Pacific and Columbia union conferences in the United States later that summer.

The motion to ordain women was passed on to the organising committee of the Netherlands Union Conference session, and was included in the agenda of the meetings scheduled for October and November. While we waited for this important discussion to take place, events abroad made things quite a bit more complicated. Two union conferences beat the Dutch to voting on the topic of women’s ordination, and just weeks before the Dutch session the General Conference passed a statement responding to the actions of these conferences. This meant that while the Dutch were not the first group of Adventists making this decision, we were the first be confronted with the problem of discussing it after the General Conference explicitly stated that they did not recognise the identical actions that the other conferences had just taken.

On Sunday, November 4th everything was set for a heated debate on this controversial topic.

That day, the original motion was discussed in session. The Netherlands Union Conference session takes place in a manner that is slightly different to other sessions. Motions are discussed and voted on the floor, but are then passed on to a plans committee that has the task of examining motions for feasibility, lawfulness, and whether or not they follow church policy. The plans committee can rewrite the motions—or even ignore them—so we knew beforehand that bringing the motion to a vote would be a three-stage battle. The original motion would need a majority vote to pass on to the the plans committee, the plans committee would need to accept the motion and return it to the floor, and that new motion would once again need a majority vote.

When Remco Dingjan first introduced the motion to the delegates, he argued strongly that at its core this issue was not a theological one or a cultural one; it is simply a matter of principle. Do we believe that women are equal to men, or not? Remco also argued that while we accept the General Conference's authority in many matters, we cannot accept their authority over our own moral standards. He emphasised that by doing this we are not preempting the theology of ordination committee's investigation in any way, but that we simply cannot morally accept the call to change the world tomorrow when we can do so today. Other delegates spoke for and against, and the motion was voted to be submitted to the plans committee by a two-thirds majority. The first hurdle was behind us.

While other discussions continued on the floor, the plans committee reviewed the motion and altered it. What the plans committee discusses is confidential, so as delegates we do not know what transpired there. But on the 11th of November, Pastor Reinder Bruinsma, chair of the plans committee, presented their altered motion to the floor:

"Considering the biblical principle of the equality of men and women, the delegates in session, indicate that they reject the current situation of inequality in the church on principle.
For this reason, and considering the context of Dutch society, they charge the Executive Board to vigorously promote this perspective in the worldwide church.
As quickly as possible, and no later than six months after the next session of the General Conference (2015), equality between men and women will be implemented at all organisational levels of the church in the Netherlands. The equal ordination of female pastors also falls into this category."

In other words, this meant that the executive committee would be responsible for choosing the correct moment to begin ordaining women, but that whatever the General Conference decides in 2015, the Netherlands Union Conference will continue with their plan to ensure the equality of women in the church—including ordination. This would allow the executive committee to respect the process of the General Conference’s discussion on the theology of ordination, while ensuring that they will not compromise on the issue of discrimination against women.

Now that this motion was ready to become policy for the executive committee, the discussion became much more heated. Many delegates stood up to oppose the motion, urging the delegates to wait for the outcome of the theology of ordination committee and concerned about the repercussions of preempting the GC’s decision. Some were worried that this topic had not been discussed in enough detail theologically. After a long discussion, many of the motion’s supporters seemed to have given up the fight. Finally, one delegate submitted a request to add an amendment to the motion.  The motion was tabled while the amendment was written and submitted.

A few hours later, minutes before the closing of the meeting on the final day of sessions, the amendment was submitted, and the motion to ordain women returned to the floor. The wording of the motion was altered, stating that the delegates would trust the theology of ordination committee to give biblical answers, and that the Netherlands Union Conference would follow the outcome of that committee. Because this constituted a fundamental change in the outcome of the motion, rather than an addition or amendment, a point of order was raised arguing that the changes should be considered hostile. After much deliberation, the parliamentarians agreed, the amendment was rejected, and discussion on the original motion was re-opened before it was put to a final vote.

Several delegates then took the opportunity to speak. Pastor Bertil Wiklander, the president of the Trans-European Division, called the delegates to trust in the theology of ordination committee, furthermore arguing that female pastors have most of the same rights as male pastors. He pointed out that this division has the highest amount of female employees in any division, that it is the only division with a female secretary. He referred to the recent book written by Dr Jan Barna of Newbold College, showing how hermeneutics explains the fundamental difference in opinion on this topic.

Most speakers argued in favour of the motion. Pastor Rudy Dingjan, head of Church Growth, spoke of the many theological reasons to ordain women, Professor Van Westrhenen argued that this topic has been widely discussed since the 1970s, stating that because so much information is now available, ignorance on the topic is a matter of personal choice. Pastor Gerard Frenk, the incumbent executive secretary, stood up to point out that Adventists have been discussing hermeneutics since the 1980s, and are no closer to agreeing on how to read the Bible than they are on the ordination of women. Pastor Jeroen Tuinstra argued strongly for the ordination of women, citing many theological and ethical reasons.

Following these moving arguments, I was the last person to be allowed to speak before the motion was put to a vote. After admitting the irony of speaking against statements made by the division president as a newly-elected executive secretary, I was honoured to be able to add my voices to those of the other delegates in supporting women’s ordination. While it is wonderful that female pastors can now do almost everything male pastors can, what that really means is that we are ultimately saying that women are almost as good as men – almost, but not quite. In the end, this is not a discussion about theology or culture, it is about how we treat other people (and fellow children of God).

Or rather, that is what I tried to say. Thinking back to the discrimination I witnessed during my youth in South Africa, I was momentarily overcome by the emotion of the moment, and I’m afraid that I barely made myself intelligible.

With the discussion concluded, the final vote was cast. To the great relief of myself and many others, the motion passed with a large majority.

The executive committee of the Netherlands Union Conference now has the difficult task of deciding when they will begin to ordain women, but the Dutch church has made its fundamental stand. No matter what, the Netherlands Union Conference has decided that female pastors should be treated equally to male pastors, and can safely say that today I am proud to be part of a church in which so many different voices can come together in respectful, heartfelt discussion and accomplish such great things in God’s name.


Tom de Bruin has been a pastor in the Netherlands for five years, and has recently submitted his PhD thesis to Leiden University on the topic of the Great Controversy as perceived by Christians in the first three centuries AD. He has just been elected as executive secretary of the Netherlands Union Conference. De Bruin notes, "This is a personal piece, not an official communication of the Netherlands Union Conference. Most of this I wrote when I was just a local pastor with a dream."

Here's the link to what was quoted in this post:

http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/11/12/road-womens-ordination-netherlands
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Daryl Fawcett on November 13, 2012, 06:07:17 PM
Four Unions from three Divisions have now gone the WO direction.

I wonder what is going to happen next?
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Battle Creek on November 15, 2012, 03:12:35 AM
Nothing might really happen until the next General Conference session.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Battle Creek on November 15, 2012, 02:35:43 PM
Here are some comments made by the TED Division President after Netherlands session:

Quote
I also appreciate that there is, in the Netherlands Union, a clear commitment to work with the Church in the study of the Theology of Ordination, including Women's Ordination. I appreciate that the Netherlands Union does not intend to implement ordination of women until the current process has culminated at the General Conference Session in 2015.

However, what I pointed out to the Session delegates on 11 November, is that I think the decision would have benefited by two things: Firstly, the action would have been improved by recognizing in its language that the Union has already, through the Trans-European Division, asked the General Conference for permission to ordain women and that, as a division family, we are waiting for their answer, which will come in 2015, and that, therefore, it looks somewhat odd to now decide to do in the future what you have already asked for permission to do, before you have received the answer from the General Conference. Secondly, I think it is in principle, inadvisable to word an action now about what you will do in three years, since nobody knows exactly what the result will be of the study of the Theology of Ordination. The Church may, for example, change its policy language and use different and more biblical terminology about the induction of pastors, which the action of the Netherlands Union Session would want to recognise. In addition, there are members in the church in the Netherlands who are not yet clear on Women's Ordination, and the study process that is now in progress would in my view help them. With this action being taken now, these people are not given time to understand what may come from the world-church study process, but you tell them in advance what the outcome will be and what they are to think.

Having said that, I want to underline that the Trans-European Division is deeply committed to working for the unity of the Church, while doing all we can to empower men and women in their spiritual and administrative leadership in our church. The Holy Spirit is guiding us through the ministry of Ellen White, who said: ‘Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed ... They should be set apart to this work by prayer and the laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church.’ (Review and Herald, 9 July, 1895, p. 434)

I continue to pray that God will lead His Church to full clarity on the matter of "Ordination" and that we will be given the wisdom to handle the current situation in a true Christian Spirit, in patience, humility, with a concern also for the interests of others, and a commitment to do what is right”, concluded Wiklander.

For more information about the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Netherlands, please visit www.adventist.nl [tedNEWS]
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Battle Creek on November 15, 2012, 02:38:37 PM
The remarks of the division president remind us that the study commission does not have to come to a conclusion if the ordination of women is Scriptural or not. The strong opinions expressed here and elsewhere in both directions might prevent that. The commission has been asked to suggest a practical solution for the church to function and solving the problem.

Dr. Wiklander suggests that because we have gone too far into a man-made pattern in our ordinations, the commission might discover we should just abandon the traditional ordination. This would void the resolutions of the four "rebelling" unions.

To me this is an indication the GC would vote to retain the already voted commission status both for men and women. Then I see as a possibility that only presidents will in the future receive a special ordination which would fulfill the description Ellen White gives us in AA of the ordination needed to establish new churches.

Just possibilities. Nobody knows the real outcome yet. Let us pray the Lord's will be done.
Title: Re: "Adventist Union Rejects World Church Policy"
Post by: Alex L. Walker on November 19, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
I am also against WO. I think it's unbiblical. Glad to see there are people standing strong against it!!