Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => Womens Ordination & Related Issues => Topic started by: Daryl Fawcett on October 12, 2012, 07:58:22 AM
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Here is the link to the Adventist Review regarding this:
http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2012-1528&page=16
Please read and then post your comments about this here.
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Here is an interesting link:
http://www.nadadventist.org/article/1073742320/news/archived-news-stories/2012-news-archives/9-26-12-north-american-division-organizes-theology-of-ordination-study-committee
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Out of the list of members of the NAD theology of ordination committee, which one or ones feel that ordaining women to the gospel ministry isn't biblical? The reason I ask is that I can see some names on that list that definitely are pro-WO, and thus the only fair way to do it is to ensure that there is at least one anti-WO person on the committee, since that would better ensure that all NAD viewpoints on the topic are represented.
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The same committees will be revising the 28 points of doctrines and have the revision ready for the next GC session. The main reason for the revision seems to be the development of language where the original words may not have the same meaning today.
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As far as it is possible in the selection of members, there really shouldn't be any biased members, whether pro-WO, or anti-WO, on that committee.
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Out of the list of members of the NAD theology of ordination committee, which one or ones feel that ordaining women to the gospel ministry isn't biblical? The reason I ask is that I can see some names on that list that definitely are pro-WO, and thus the only fair way to do it is to ensure that there is at least one anti-WO person on the committee, since that would better ensure that all NAD viewpoints on the topic are represented.
The NAD committee is far from the only one dealing with this subject. There is a committee for each of the world divisions. In some of these divisions there seems to be a majority pro-WO, while in other divisions there is a majority anti-WO. Should that not be a sufficient guarantee that the anti-WO view is presented, even if the membership of the NAD committee should reflect the major opinion of the NAD unions?
Not only this, but then there is a GC committee as another sieving apparatus before the matter is dealt with at various GC levels (Annual Counsel, etc) before it goes to the GC assembly. I have noticed, however, that some are hoping this is taken care of already by 2013/14, but wondering how that can be accomplished?
Now I read that the WO is not the only matter the committees will take care of. They will also deal with the task of reviewing or re-writing our 28 points of doctrines because the present wording has become obsolete. Who knows what that will include?
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MEMBERS OF THE THEOLOGY OF ORDINATION STUDY COMMITTEE:
STELE, ARTUR A, Chair
Mbwana, Geoffrey G, Vice-chair
Porter, Karen J, Secretary
Boward, Tamara K, Recording Secretary
Arrais, Jonas
Arrais, Raquel C
Batchelor, Doug
Bauer, Steve
Beardsley-Hardy, Lisa M
Bischoff, Fred
Bohr, Stephen
Brown, Gina S
Brunt, John
Ceballos, Mario E
Chang, Shirley
Clark, Chester V III
Costa, Robert
Damsteegt, Gerard
Damsteegt, Laurel
Davidson, Jo Ann M
Davidson, Richard M
de Sousa, Elias B
Diop, A Ganoune
Donkor, Kwabena
Doss, Cheryl
Fagal, William A
Finley, Mark A
Fortin, Denis
Gothard, Doris M
Haloviak-Valentine, Kendra
Hasel, Michael
Holmes, C Raymond
Howard, James
Hucks, Willie
Jankiewiez, Darius
Kent, Anthony R
King, Gregory A
Knott, Esther
Knott, William M
Koh, Linda Mei Lin
Kuntaraf, Kathleen K H
McLennan, Patty
Mackintosh, Don
Miller, Nick
Mills, Phil
Moon, Jerry
Morris, Derek J
Mueller, Ekkehardt F R
Nelson, Dwight K
Nix, James R
Oberg, Chris
Page, Janet
Page, Jerry N
Paulson, Kevin
Peters, John
Pfandl, Gerhard
Poirier, Timothy L
Proffitt, Kathryn L
Prewitt, Eugene
Rafferty, James
Read, David C
Reeve, Teresa
Reid, George
Roberts, Randall L
Rodriguez, Angel M
Scarone, Daniel
Silva, Sandra
Slikkers, Dolores E
Small, Heather-Dawn K
Sorke, Ingo
Timm, Alberto R
Trim, David
Tutsch, Cindy
Veloso, Mario
Vin Cross, Tara
Wahlen, Clinton L
Warden, Ivan Leigh
Zarska, Carol
You can read more about this from the attached PDF file.
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Looking at the members of this committee, it should make for an interesting study committee.
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It looks to me like the list includes people on both sides of the issue, and that is the way it should be.
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I agree.
Also, even though there are those on both sides of the issue, if they do the study without bias, they should eventually come to a conclusion.
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Now there are five Unions which have reached their conclusion on this question:
North German
Columbia
Pacific
Netherlands
Norway
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I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!
The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!
I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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At the first meeting of the over 100 member committee it seems like hermeneutics was the main issue studied. Hermeneutics means the method of studying the Bible. I understand the committee is stronly divided into two groups, those who follow the Ellen G White hermeneutics and those who follow the fundamentalist hermeneutics.
Kevin from New York has made this observation:when I was at Andrews I would read a lot of corrispondence that Mrs. White wrote; the ones that I found most interesting was between Mrs. White and Steven Haskell, where Haskell kept trying to convince Mrs. White of the views of the Fundamentalists and trying to convince her that this was how her inspiration worked, and how she kept trying to encourage him to give up fundamentalism and saying that it NOT how her inspiration worked. (Haskell's argument won out in the church and is the views of the typical Adventist).
How is yours?
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At the first meeting of the over 100 member committee it seems like hermeneutics was the main issue studied. Hermeneutics means the method of studying the Bible. I understand the committee is stronly divided into two groups, those who follow the Ellen G White hermeneutics and those who follow the fundamentalist hermeneutics.
Kevin from New York has made this observation:when I was at Andrews I would read a lot of corrispondence that Mrs. White wrote; the ones that I found most interesting was between Mrs. White and Steven Haskell, where Haskell kept trying to convince Mrs. White of the views of the Fundamentalists and trying to convince her that this was how her inspiration worked, and how she kept trying to encourage him to give up fundamentalism and saying that it NOT how her inspiration worked. (Haskell's argument won out in the church and is the views of the typical Adventist).
How is yours?
I seem to recall a lecture by Michael Campbell about the 1919 Bible Conference in which he took the position that both sides at that conference resonated with the fundamentalist movement of those times.
Since fundamentalism was fighting the same things that Ellen White fought, such as the giving up of the beliefs that Christ's blood saves, and that God created the world in 6 days, I don't see how she could have pushed anyone to give up "fundamentalism."
The problem I see today is that folks have taken her thought inspiration position to extremes. Words express thoughts. If the thought is inspired, shouldn't we accept as true the thought expressed in the words we read? No, say some.
It's like the Catholic priest who told me that God didn't create the world in 6 days, and He didn't destroy the world with a flood. But the thought behind the stories was true, he said: God created everything and God will punish sin.
I assure you, that wasn't what Ellen White meant by thought inspiration.
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Yes, and those same people that reject inspiration of EGW would now challenge the inspiration of the Bible Writers as well...in fact, let no-one stand in the way of "progressive" inspiration and rationality!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!
The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!
I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
You have got to be kidding me?! "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.
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AND PROUD OF IT!!! Let's hope he sees this assessment...put Kevin and Pickle together and you have a FORMIDABLE FORCE!!!
GAJ
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When I was studying for the ministry many of our textbooks were by Mrs. White and we knew that here we had the Spirit of Prophecy. It was inspiring to meet with and talk to quite a few people back then who had not only met Mrs. White but lived with her. Our Bible teachers taught us how to understand the Bible and see how it supported the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy in the end time movements and church.
In recent years people claiming to be saints have turned all of this upside down. Now the textual understanding used in the early days of our church to support the Spirit of Prophecy have lost their validity, generally for one purpose: to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of the male priesthood.
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Here is a new book that I find worth reading. It describes the development in the Seventh-day Adventist Church just the way I have experienced it in my lifetime.
<https://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/433232/1/a-short-history-of-the-headship-doctrine-in-the-seventh-day-adventist-church#C5>
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Here is a new book that I find worth reading. It describes the development in the Seventh-day Adventist Church just the way I have experienced it in my lifetime.
<https://www.smashwords.com/extreader/read/433232/1/a-short-history-of-the-headship-doctrine-in-the-seventh-day-adventist-church#C5>
Kirkpatrick's response to this document can be found at http://ordinationtruth.com/2014/05/06/kirkpatrick-response-to-chudleigh-on-headship-theology/
http://ordinationtruth.com/featured/homosexuality-or-christianity/ should also be a concern.
In recent years people claiming to be saints have turned all of this upside down. Now the textual understanding used in the early days of our church to support the Spirit of Prophecy have lost their validity, generally for one purpose: to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of the male priesthood.
In what specific way is recognizing as truth what Scripture says are the roles of men and women overturning anything we have taught in the past?
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You suggested I listen to this video and I’m glad I did. I happen to be about 10 years older than Gerry Chudleigh, and thus I have experienced everything just the way Gerry describes it. The face of Larry indicates that he belongs to a younger generation, the generation Gerry talks about. So, besides my own life experience, this video to me is a rather strong evidence that Gerry Chudleigh hits the nail on its head – and is just right.
What has so utterly blinded many “honest” pastors of the younger generation, is that back in the days when Ellen White and her writings were really appreciated, our Bible teachers taught us the true meaning of the sections in Scripture that our enemies used to discredit our Spirit of Prophecy. Now the Samuelle Bacchiocchi gang, following him like a guru, are re-interpreting those Bible texts because, as Adventists, they need Bible support for their views against the ordination of women. Personally I fear that what you are accomplishing is that eventually these same texts will again be used to undermine our understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy, and our old SDA faith will be thrown out the window, for the purpose of supporting your doctrines against women pastors which happen to be an old relic from the Roman Catholic church.
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J. H. Waggoner, if he were alive today, would be far older than Chudleigh, and he understood that women were not to be ordained as elders, if I recall his statement correctly. And so your point doesn't seem sound to me. Kirkpatrick's reasoning can't be that newfangled if prominent Adventists were writing the same sort of thing in the 19th century.
From an article when Waggoner was the resident editor of ST:
And this appears yet more evident from the explanatory declaration in his words to Timothy, "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Tim. 2:2. The divine arrangement, even from the beginning, is this, that the man is the head of the woman. Every relation is disregarded or abused in this lawless age. But the Scriptures always maintain this order in the family relation. "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church." Eph. 5:23. Man is entitled to certain privileges which are not given to woman; and he is subjected to some duties, and burdens from which the woman is exempt. A woman may pray, prophesy, exhort, and comfort the church, but she cannot occupy the position of a pastor or a ruling elder. This would be looked upon as usurping authority over the man, which is here prohibited. ...
Neither do the words of Paul confine the labors of women to the act of prophesying alone. He refers to prayers, and also speaks of certain women who "labored in the Lord," an expression which could only refer to the work of the gospel. He also, in remarking on the work of the prophets, speaks of edification, exhortation, and comfort. This "labor in the Lord," with prayer, comprises all the duties of public worship. Not all the duties of business meetings, which were probably conducted by men, or all the duties of ruling elders, and pastors, compare 1 Tim. 5:17, with 2:12, but all that pertain to exercises purely religious. We sincerely believe that, according to the Scriptures, women, as a right may, and as a duty ought to, engage in these exercises.
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Posting this statement seems to indicate that you too have lost your former great confidence in the Spirit of Prophecy. You must have read where she writes:
"It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God." Gospel Workers, page 96.
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What do men and women becoming "pastors" to the flock of God have to do with whether women biblically may serve as ordained local elders? I don't see how this passage, which is talking about the benefits of canvassing, gives guidance for the topic at hand.
At any rate, you indicated that Waggoner's views were a new development in recent times, but that is not true, based on 19th century statements by Waggoner and others. You stated:
When I was studying for the ministry many of our textbooks were by Mrs. White and we knew that here we had the Spirit of Prophecy. It was inspiring to meet with and talk to quite a few people back then who had not only met Mrs. White but lived with her. Our Bible teachers taught us how to understand the Bible and see how it supported the guidance of the Spirit of Prophecy in the end time movements and church.
In recent years people claiming to be saints have turned all of this upside down. Now the textual understanding used in the early days of our church to support the Spirit of Prophecy have lost their validity, generally for one purpose: to support the Roman Catholic doctrine of the male priesthood.
Clearly, you said that opposition to women's ordination to headship roles is a modern departure from the teachings of the early days of our church, and yet when we examine the writings of our pioneers from those early days, they were strongly opposed too, for similar reasons. Let's not try to rewrite history, or try to say that their teachings on this subject undermined the Spirit of Prophecy, when they most definitely supported the Spirit of Prophecy.
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I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!
The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!
I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
You have got to be kidding me?! "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.
It has been reported in Adventist Today that Kevin Paulson now concedes that female pastors can be used in the church if their assignments are restricted to other women and children.
That seems to be an interesting development.
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Wouldn't he have felt the same long ago?
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Can you provide a link to back up what you posted here about Kevin Paulson?
I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!
The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!
I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
You have got to be kidding me?! "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.
It has been reported in Adventist Today that Kevin Paulson now concedes that female pastors can be used in the church if their assignments are restricted to other women and children.
That seems to be an interesting development.
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Pastor Kevin Paulson gave me permission to post the following as written by him:
This is a truncated description of my understanding, which isn't
surprising coming from the source you cite.
What I believe, on the basis of Scripture, is that headship roles
in ministry are reserved for men, on the basis of the original created
order (I Tim. 2:12-13). As the Seventh-day Adventist Church is
structured, this would mean that such offices as that of local church
elder, senior pastor, administrative associate pastor, Conference
president, Conference executive secretary, and Conference ministerial
direction, would be reserved for males only.
This doesn't mean women would have no role in working with men.
The above limitation would not apply to departmental positions at both
the local church and Conference level, nor would it apply to associate
pastors involved in matters other than administration. Schoolteachers
and principals, for example, are all under the administrative guidance
of pastors and Conference leaders, so those roles wouldn't be
restricted to men either.
Without question, it will take some time and forethought for
church leaders to articulate and apply the Biblical headship principle
to all areas of denominational life. But it can and must be applied
if we are to remain faithful to the Biblical order of authority in the
home as well as the church.
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http://www.atoday.org/article/2519/opinion/visiting-columnists/open-letter-to-the-theology-ordination-study-committee-members#comment48730
Can you provide a link to back up what you posted here about Kevin Paulson?
I noticed Kevin Paulson made the group..he is a political animal and is known to be opposed to WO. My guess is that he was chasen for his political AND academic skills...in my honest opinion, he will bend his every effort to make sure WO is DOA in 2015!!!
The battle will be in the delegate counts long before the GC Session and Kevin is ACUTELY AWARE that it will be won or lost in the Delegate Selection Process!!!
I trust that IJN Akagi will expand his reach well beyond NPUC!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
You have got to be kidding me?! "Political animal" is an understatement. Don't get me wrong, I like how Kevin has openly confronted Danny Shelton. However, he is ruthless and uncompromising.
It has been reported in Adventist Today that Kevin Paulson now concedes that female pastors can be used in the church if their assignments are restricted to other women and children.
That seems to be an interesting development.
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What do men and women becoming "pastors" to the flock of God have to do with whether women biblically may serve as ordained local elders? I don't see how this passage, which is talking about the benefits of canvassing, gives guidance for the topic at hand. You seem to miss the point. Ellen White is clearly talking about the benefits of canvassing in preparation for the ministry. Then she adds that both men and women will be called by the Holy Spirit as pastors.
At any rate, you indicated that Waggoner's views were a new development in recent times, but that is not true, based on 19th century statements by Waggoner and others.
Thank you for this information. That explains why Ellen White wrote a warning against following Waggoner at the beginning of the 20th century. It also explains why in the good old days when our Bible teachers still believed that Ellen White was the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy, never mentioned this now revived heresy of male headship. You belong to a younger generation that did not learn to trust Ellen White the way our generation experienced it. This new generation claims to follow Ellen White, but it seems to me like it only happens where her writings do not contradict their preconceived prejudices or the new prophets and televangelists who are replacing Ellen White.
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Kirkpatrick's response to this document can be found at http://ordinationtruth.com/2014/05/06/kirkpatrick-response-to-chudleigh-on-headship-theology/
http://ordinationtruth.com/featured/homosexuality-or-christianity/ should also be a concern.
Yes, I have read this and come to realize that Kirkpatrick is replacing Ellen White these days to the unawares.
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I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.
Pastor Kevin Paulson gave me permission to post the following as written by him:
This is a truncated description of my understanding, which isn't
surprising coming from the source you cite.
What I believe, on the basis of Scripture, is that headship roles
in ministry are reserved for men, on the basis of the original created
order (I Tim. 2:12-13). As the Seventh-day Adventist Church is
structured, this would mean that such offices as that of local church
elder, senior pastor, administrative associate pastor, Conference
president, Conference executive secretary, and Conference ministerial
direction, would be reserved for males only.
This doesn't mean women would have no role in working with men.
The above limitation would not apply to departmental positions at both
the local church and Conference level, nor would it apply to associate
pastors involved in matters other than administration. Schoolteachers
and principals, for example, are all under the administrative guidance
of pastors and Conference leaders, so those roles wouldn't be
restricted to men either.
Without question, it will take some time and forethought for
church leaders to articulate and apply the Biblical headship principle
to all areas of denominational life. But it can and must be applied
if we are to remain faithful to the Biblical order of authority in the
home as well as the church.
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I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.
I did not see that it changed anything.
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Thank you for this information. That explains why Ellen White wrote a warning against following Waggoner at the beginning of the 20th century.
I do not recall any warning by Ellen White against following J H Waggoner.
It also explains why in the good old days when our Bible teachers still believed that Ellen White was the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy, never mentioned this now revived heresy of male headship. You belong to a younger generation that did not learn to trust Ellen White the way our generation experienced it. This new generation claims to follow Ellen White, but it seems to me like it only happens where her writings do not contradict their preconceived prejudices or the new prophets and televangelists who are replacing Ellen White.
I certainly don't recall any warning of Ellen White about rejecting women's ordination, and therefore I don't think it fair to suggest that those who oppose women's ordination are somehow going against the Spirit of Prophecy. Furthermore, if you were to survey the two camps, I suspect you would find that those who oppose women's ordination generally have a greater regard for the Spirit of Prophecy than those who do not. There of course would be exceptions, but I suspect that's what you would generally find.
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Bob,
If you have access to White estate click in search "course of Waggoner" and find EGW comments and letters. I have been following along for all this time and saw all this coming long time ago and watched who was falling to these concepts. You cannot change these adversary's of EGW.
You know where I am at in the conference that seems to be leading the way of this progression or sure enough helping it along. I'm sure you read the seeds of this by Wohlberg.
I just want to state that unless these people have read cover to cover and context by context by the specific field she's talking about that are for "women's ordination" will they never ever convince me -because it proves to me one thing on their part. They can only pick and choose what they think convinces them of their own opinions in one nook or cranny or the right sounding word to them.
Back then, same as today only worse the people will have their own way and make their own rules in everything they desire it to be. Yes, she stated frequently that women had a part in the Lords ministry in all fields of work, they even tried their best to lead out their own way by giving EGW credentials. She did not want or use what they insisted she have. You know her answer to that. NO where does she state Ordination of Man and the same for women. teachers yes, healthcare yes laborers yes, ordained preachers-no. God has appointed and used women for His use in all ages, but he does the choosing. I heard D. Nelson come off and make his theory for this. and the other (3abn) star make his. I'm sure neither had the time to read every book cover to cover every context in all aspects of which she writes in for them to stand in their own theories although I do appreciate their heavy study at times. If they did- they would have not figured out a way to move in the direction that the majority is now taking. The majority is moving in direction they most like to feel comfortable believing because of ministering in any field means Legal documents for pay. and.... that's their religion! Documents won't get you into the gates no more then the Amish driving horse and buggy. For what reason is this other then the Adversaries way of division. Reading totally all will not confuse you which men of the pulpit in our world of SDA are of truth. The rest..deceived! It will be interesting for you to read about Waggoner and his wife and how he really was. But he was able to give good sermons and study as his education and ability was newspaper reporting. EGW is the pure factor to go by and had to endure mostly opposition same as here. Can you believe that when Jesus ordained EGW to be His messenger the people thought it important that "they" should ordain her???? She was under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Just how arrogant can people get? She said it was like slapping God in the face to accept. As far as I'm concerned women are their own callers for preaching for paychecks. I believe the Ohio conference president's wife Buffy has Ordained Minister credentials and a pretty gold ring displayed. Correct me please if I'm wrong. Progression is in - it appears! and we are the minority.
The day I see a woman over powering a man for baptism, I am out of there. Can one imagine, Now a laughing matter to see.
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Thank you for this information. That explains why Ellen White wrote a warning against following Waggoner at the beginning of the 20th century.
I do not recall any warning by Ellen White against following J H Waggoner.
It also explains why in the good old days when our Bible teachers still believed that Ellen White was the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy, never mentioned this now revived heresy of male headship. You belong to a younger generation that did not learn to trust Ellen White the way our generation experienced it. This new generation claims to follow Ellen White, but it seems to me like it only happens where her writings do not contradict their preconceived prejudices or the new prophets and televangelists who are replacing Ellen White.
I certainly don't recall any warning of Ellen White about rejecting women's ordination, and therefore I don't think it fair to suggest that those who oppose women's ordination are somehow going against the Spirit of Prophecy. Furthermore, if you were to survey the two camps, I suspect you would find that those who oppose women's ordination generally have a greater regard for the Spirit of Prophecy than those who do not. There of course would be exceptions, but I suspect that's what you would generally find.
I only found it recently as I was looking for something else, but I failed to write down the reference. I was amazed, because I had never seen it before.
What tells you that those who are for the ordination of women have any less belief in the Spirit of Prophecy - except in statements by the "new" prophets who seem to replace Ellen White as the Spirit of Prophecy?
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I should have added that what you say about the acceptance of Ellen White is the opposite of what I have observed. Most of the people I know who support the ordination of women in the ministry accept fully Ellen White as the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Among those I know who oppose the ordination of women a majority accepts only her writings selectively, rejecting whatever does not harmonize with their preconceived views. I fear these are spearheading the final apostasy leading a great number of church members to reject our precious faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer.
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What tells you that those who are for the ordination of women have any less belief in the Spirit of Prophecy - except in statements by the "new" prophets who seem to replace Ellen White as the Spirit of Prophecy?
That's my gut feeling. Do a survey and see if I am correct.
I should have added that what you say about the acceptance of Ellen White is the opposite of what I have observed. Most of the people I know who support the ordination of women in the ministry accept fully Ellen White as the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?
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Tinka,
Great to hear from you. Yes, I have run across counsel Ellen White sent to J. H. Waggoner, and even mentioned a particular incident in my book since it illustrated that at times Ellen White didn't come down hard enough, that incident being a clear cut example of such and one that she herself mentioned.
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Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?
Definitely! Taking into consideration all that she has to say on that subject and not just someone else's personal interpretation of her words.
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Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?
Definitely! Taking into consideration all that she has to say on that subject and not just someone else's personal interpretation of her words.
One European country I have visited does not seem to take very seriously Ellen White's counsel regarding jewelry, but I suspect they don't have that much problem with women's ordination.
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I should have added that what you say about the acceptance of Ellen White is the opposite of what I have observed. ( First mistake- never observe what someone else is doing. Most of the people and as she states- many of Adventists will fall.)) I know who support the ordination of women in the ministry accept fully Ellen White as the fulfillment of the Spirit of Prophecy in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. OF course they do and again they use it like some use scripture to seek sort out to prove their own beliefs this is nothing new that EGW encountered the whole time. So who will be at the finish line :horse: the majority pleasing the people or the life lived by foundational instruction diligently read page by page and not persuaded by observing others. I would never take that chance. Stephen Bohr, Doug Bachelor, Carter, the Howard Brothers are right and the other stars are wrong. No fear here! It's like the people claiming you should never ever eat an egg. Yes she states it ... but the context is shes stating to a whole family of obesity that they should never ever eat another egg. Did she mean that for everyone? NO but gave reason eggs were good in many incidents.
Among those I know who oppose the ordination of women a majority accepts only her writings selectively, rejecting whatever does not harmonize with their preconceived views. No these are the ones that read consistently as the contexts reveal in sequence. I fear these are spearheading the final apostasy leading a great number of church members to reject our precious faith in Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. You should fear for the progression of SDA joining the world to appease the people and not the Holy Spirit. If in doubt about the progression and definitely who spearheads it. Look at all that is displayed against SOP. Worship screaming high emotion jumping dancing, dress, jewelry, music, entertainment, woman's paychecks, must I go on. and now I see rituals starting. dance and traditions of supposedly our roots to get back to. It finally appears if you watch long enough it leads to worship the Sabbath day and not the God of the Sabbath Guess I won't go there, took me a while to see this new strange stuff. Sure does lead you away from the simplicity in first foundational instructions of worship. Seems all cultures want their own worship these days instead of unity and worship that is unacceptable - that instruction for worship long out the door! very few churches left that want to be acceptable to God and not people
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Does acceptance include seeking to put into practice counsels found therein?
Definitely! Taking into consideration all that she has to say on that subject and not just someone else's personal interpretation of her words.
One European country I have visited does not seem to take very seriously Ellen White's counsel regarding jewelry, but I suspect they don't have that much problem with women's ordination.
I was shocked when I came from Europe and observed all the face colors and decorations I saw on women in church in the United States of America. It made me think no Americans would ever get to heaven. I had never seen anything like that in Europe, including the one European country you have visited.
Who judges what?
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I should have added that the women wore no metal in their decorations except their very expensive watches. Same with men and decorative tie holders and cuff links, indicating it was a very rich nation.
The jewelry you saw would be like toys for children in comparison.
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. Do a survey and see if I am correct.
That seems to be an evil thing to do, according to your freind.
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Taking part in these discussions has been a personal help to me. They show me how some of the most devoted Seventh-day Adventist are reading Scripture and the writings of Ellen White with the attitude of a pharisee. What we need to see is Jesus Christ and His glory. It would not hurt any of us to re-read Steps to Christ again and again until we have rediscovered Him as a personal Savior.
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We can read Steps to Christ, for sure, but that does not change the basic issue. You had suggested that those who resist women's ordination are somehow going contrary to the Spirit of Prophecy. In response, I stated that I thought that those who resist it are on average more accepting of the counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy than those who promote it.
You mention face colors, cuff links, and tie holders. The same sort of survey could be done regarding those things as well, and it wouldn't surprise me if you discovered some sort of correlation there too.
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Selective inspiration? Is that the way to go?
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I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.
Here is what Kevin Paulson posted himself in Spectrum:
Kevin Paulson cfowler • 6 days ago
I would reassign women who were in senior pastoral positions to positions consistent with Biblical gender role distinctions. In a multi-staff church, I strongly believe there is a place for women on the pastoral team, as they are best able to deal with women's and family issues and can take many other responsibilities as well. Headship roles in such a situation would only include the senior pastor's job and that of the administrative associate, if there is such a position in such a setting. All other roles, from what I find in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, can be filled by qualified women.
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Selective inspiration? Is that the way to go?
I don't think so.
I noticed that Battle Creek never responded to Kevin Paulson's direct quote.
Here is what Kevin Paulson posted himself in Spectrum:
Kevin Paulson cfowler • 6 days ago
I would reassign women who were in senior pastoral positions to positions consistent with Biblical gender role distinctions. In a multi-staff church, I strongly believe there is a place for women on the pastoral team, as they are best able to deal with women's and family issues and can take many other responsibilities as well. Headship roles in such a situation would only include the senior pastor's job and that of the administrative associate, if there is such a position in such a setting. All other roles, from what I find in Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy, can be filled by qualified women.
This sounds like what I was hearing some say a number of years ago. Any evidence that this is a new position for Kevin?
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Back to the subject. When I met Cindy Tutch she spoke very highly of Bob Pickle and how the two of you had cooperated in the Ellen G White Estate. She was a member of the TOSC committe and here is her account of the events there:
Reflections on the TOSC
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by Cindy Tutsch, June 8, 2014
In the hotel elevator this morning:
Him: You look nice this morning!
Me: Thank you! I'm going to church.
Him: Church? It's Saturday!
Me: Yes. I'm a Seventh-day Adventist.
Him: Are you in town on business?
Me: I served this week on a committee my church convened to study the issue of ordination. I voted yes to the ordination of women, because I serve a God who created humanity equal.
Him (nodding vigorously): So do I; so do I!
Elevator door opens. Man wishes me well.
So, there it is. My choice to support Group #2 is not about civil rights, feminism, liberalism, higher-critical biblical interpretation, ascendancy of women, taking men’s place, competing with men for jobs, prestige, or any of the fear-driven assumptions others have made about those who signed on to Group #2.
Instead, my choice is based on the character and purposes of the God I serve, and on allowing the Holy Spirit to anoint whom He will.
Though I appreciate the efforts of Group #3 to recommend regional adaptations of the ordination of women, the proposal is built on a premise that women are “second best,” “not God’s ideal,” “permitted as a last resort.” In other words, God likes me less! I cannot, therefore, support the proposal of Group #3* because it casts an ugly smear on God’s character and creation.
Actually, such gender bias is not a new perversion of God’s ideal. Anciently, every Jewish man prayed daily, “Thank God I am not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.” But in Galatians 3:27, Paul goes beyond the question of who may be granted salvation to address ethnicity, slavery, and gender, pointing God’s people back to Creation perfection in each of these categories.
Therefore, building on the belief and practice of the Adventist pioneers, Adventists continue to reject the false doctrine of exclusive male leadership [headship] in the church, and promote the restoration of Eden’s ideal for all relationships.
Were we to come together on this issue that has troubled and distracted us far too long, we could focus on the “weightier” matters of mission and message, and have energy to promote our historic positions on Creation, sexuality, and inspiration. With the vote of 2/3 of the TOSC allowing for regional adaptations, leadership could now move us forward toward resolution through accommodation of the needs in the local field. Instead, efforts to minimize the significance of the vote signals that some may be planning to continue expending time, money, and effort to perpetually combat this issue, rather than working toward unity in diversity.**
Group #3 states, “We do not see this pattern [of male leadership] as a moral absolute or universal divine command, or of sacramental or salvific significance.” With these words in mind, please read carefully the Going Forward document of Group #2. In this proposal, no entity is coerced, no union forced to act outside of its collective constituents’ conviction.
Could you sign on?
The Way Forward—Group #2
Aware of our high calling as Seventh-day Adventists, we eagerly anticipate the soon coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We passionately believe that “God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms” (GC 596). The Scriptural affirmation that God shows no partiality (Gen 1, 2; Gal 3:26-28; Col 3:11-17; 1 Peter 2:8-10; Acts 10:34) and the urgency of our mission (Mt 28:18-20; Mt 24:14; Rev 14:6-12) drive us to include all believers, both men and women, in using the gifts God has given them, and appropriately affirm them in their ministry. God created men and women in the image of God (Gen 1:26-28), and although this ideal was disrupted by sin, Christ restored the ideal, and in the New Testament we see both men and women ministering. God works continuously to complete this restoration. We see the restoration of this ideal in: (1) Paul’s affirmation of the restoration of equality (Gal 3; Eph 2:14-22; cf Rev 5:10); (2) participation of women in the ministry of the early church (Lk 8:1-3; Rm 16:1, 2, 7; Acts 18:2, 26); and, (3) the Spirit’s working in the ministry of women in the church today.
The recently adopted consensus statement on ordination declares, “ordination is an act of commissioning that acknowledges God’s call, sets the individual apart, and appoints the person to serve the church in a special capacity.” Furthermore, it is an invocation of “God’s blessing upon those chosen to the work of ministry.” This understanding of ordination is consistent whether we ordain a deacon or a deaconess, an elder or a pastor.
Throughout Adventist history we have often faced theological and ecclesiastical issues that have caused differences among us. Despite vigorous debate at times, we have remained united as one body under Christ pursuing our unique God-given mission. “We cannot then take a position that the unity of the church consists in viewing every text of Scripture in the very same light. . . . Nothing can perfect unity in the church but the spirit of Christ-like forbearance” (Ellen G White, “Love, the Need of the Church,” 11MR 266).
Fundamental Belief #14 on “Unity in the Body of Christ” states that, “Distinctions of race, culture, learning, nationality, and differences between high and low, rich and poor, male and female, must not be divisive among us. We are all equal in Christ, who by one Spirit has bonded us into one fellowship with Him and with one another. We are to serve and be served without partiality or reservation.” On the basis of this Fundamental Belief, the General Conference has established policies regulating responsibilities within the Church including employment practices recognizing women in leadership roles (see GC Working Policy BA-60). These policies reflect our convictions on the doctrine of spiritual gifts: that the Holy Spirit calls both men and women to service and that all spiritual gifts are gender inclusive (1 Cor 12:11; Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:17-21). The Church has taken action to allow for the ordination of deaconesses and female elders and the commissioning of female pastors. Although these church policies and practices are implemented differently throughout the world, the church has remained a unified, worldwide organization pressing together in mission and message.
Following the Bible and the counsel of Ellen White, the Church acknowledges the need to adapt its practices to the needs of the people it seeks to reach. Regional diversity in the practice of women’s ordination will ensure that no entity will be compelled to do so against the will of its constituency. As in other matters, faithfulness to Scripture and mutual respect for one another are essential for the unity of the Church.
Therefore, because we accept the Bible’s call to give witness to God’s impartiality and believe that disunity and fragmentation will be the inevitable result of enforcing only one perspective in all regions, we propose that:
Each entity responsible for calling pastors be authorized to choose either to have only men as ordained pastors; or to have both men and women as ordained pastors. [This choice will be protected by guarantees in the relevant documents of each union, division and the General Conference, so that no entity can be directed against its will to adopt a position other than the one to which the collective conscience of its constituency points.]
The union, at which organizational level decisions for ordination have historically been made in the Seventh-day Adventist Church, be enabled by its Division to make the decision as to whether to approve the ordination of both men and women to gospel ministry.
We hereby rededicate our lives to God and pledge allegiance to His Word as we fulfil the Great Commission the Lord has entrusted to His Church. Maranatha. Come Lord Jesus.
*You may view all three of the proposals for going forward at adventistarchives.org
**”Unity in diversity” is a phrase Ellen White uses over 30 times.
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Anciently, every Jewish man prayed daily, “Thank God I am not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.”
Anyone have a reference that would support this statement? Is it supposed to be in the Talmud or where? Or is it apocryphal?
Therefore, building on the belief and practice of the Adventist pioneers, Adventists continue to reject the false doctrine of exclusive male leadership [headship] in the church, and promote the restoration of Eden’s ideal for all relationships.
Yet as we have seen here, our pioneers did feel that ordination of women as gospel ministers was inappropriate given certain key Bible texts.
Regional diversity in the practice of women’s ordination will ensure that no entity will be compelled to do so against the will of its constituency. ...
Each entity responsible for calling pastors be authorized to choose either to have only men as ordained pastors; or to have both men and women as ordained pastors. [This choice will be protected by guarantees in the relevant documents of each union, division and the General Conference, so that no entity can be directed against its will to adopt a position other than the one to which the collective conscience of its constituency points.]
Do the above words indicate that no local church will be forced to accept the ordination of women to the gospel ministry against the will of its constituency? I don't think it quite makes such a guarantee, but it should.
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If this is the correct view of whats going on in the committee I see from this the presence of the "great fumbler of words" into the total lack of common sense, truth and utter play of distortion of God's creation to "unisex" understanding or equality of human gender. Unisex is never ever what God Created in mind or body. Therefore his creation was unique in man doing what he is meant to do and woman meant to do what she can do. The only thing equal is God's Love for both and accomplishing together what the other cannot do as help mate to each other. The rest is malarkey, confusion and might add how easy the devil can come up with all this mindset, diversion and distortion of Scripture to fit into the devils web. Roll on into the fate of compromising in great strides of distruction while the standard bearers morn and pray for the lost deceived souls caught in this web. Some women who think they hear the "call" is no more then following a cow bellowing over the hill somewhere from their planted drive of gender equality. This is one instance or example of traveling in your own misgiving pathway that you are left to travel. A true woman Bible Worker does not need credentials to accent her desire to work for God unless a paycheck is involved for doing so. If church wants to give compensation for Pastors wife or woman doing special work in church for help for her educated professional services so be it if that's their choice to do. Other wise her reward is waiting under God's Employment plan of her ministry in what field she chooses. Of course since man was supposed to be head of house and supporter of family God's plan was tithe. The Emerging church is emerging! "Eve" has not learned her lesson yet! Now she wants credentials for her gender equality!
Me,?? I enjoyed being the woman I was meant to be by the husband that was meant to be. He no way could do my part as a mother nor could I do his as a father. But together all "became" equal and quite a beautiful plan of simplicity in what God's equality meant. God knew what he was doing in choosing and trusting very humble sincere way of EGW. who thought credentials to her was slap in face to God. Still this "woman's ordination" can't grasp this picture in any common sense or form of understanding other then her great desire of "unisex equality. That tells me one thing, NO good man or lack of something in her life that she wanders into another realm!! But in this generation who would understand this now? :dunno:
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Anciently, every Jewish man prayed daily, “Thank God I am not a Gentile, a slave, or a woman.”
Anyone have a reference that would support this statement? Is it supposed to be in the Talmud or where? Or is it apocryphal?
As we were going through the Sabbath School lesson in church this morning a retired school principal told us he has a Jewish friend who says his morning prayer as he is getting dressed. He has a prayer for each piece of garment he puts on, and then at the close of his prayer he also thanks God he was not born in the body of a woman.
The old traditions still linger.
Therefore, building on the belief and practice of the Adventist pioneers, Adventists continue to reject the false doctrine of exclusive male leadership [headship] in the church, and promote the restoration of Eden’s ideal for all relationships.
Yet as we have seen here, our pioneers did feel that ordination of women as gospel ministers was inappropriate given certain key Bible texts.
I have noticed that you have made the study of our pioneers a specialty of yours.
In the new Encyclopedia where you are the author of a section, there is quite a bit information about the difference between the opinions of several of the pioneers and Ellen G. White.
In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?
Regional diversity in the practice of women’s ordination will ensure that no entity will be compelled to do so against the will of its constituency. ...
Each entity responsible for calling pastors be authorized to choose either to have only men as ordained pastors; or to have both men and women as ordained pastors. [This choice will be protected by guarantees in the relevant documents of each union, division and the General Conference, so that no entity can be directed against its will to adopt a position other than the one to which the collective conscience of its constituency points.]
Do the above words indicate that no local church will be forced to accept the ordination of women to the gospel ministry against the will of its constituency? I don't think it quite makes such a guarantee, but it should.
No disagreement. Even I have experienced that a local church did not accept me as their pastor when the conference assigned me to serve that church. The local church had decided they wanted to manage without a pastor and do evangelism on their own. So much better for them.
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I could have added that this happened after I had officially retired from the ministry, so I was not looking for work. The conference then asked me to serve as a pastor of two other churches.
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As we were going through the Sabbath School lesson in church this morning a retired school principal told us he has a Jewish friend who says his morning prayer as he is getting dressed. He has a prayer for each piece of garment he puts on, and then at the close of his prayer he also thanks God he was not born in the body of a woman.
She said that was the prayer that was said in ancient times. I would like to see some sort of reference substantiating that. What someone is praying today does not prove what they said in ancient times.
In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?
But since Ellen White never said that we should ordain women to serve as gospel ministers (as that term is understood), there is no choice to be made on this question.
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As we were going through the Sabbath School lesson in church this morning a retired school principal told us he has a Jewish friend who says his morning prayer as he is getting dressed. He has a prayer for each piece of garment he puts on, and then at the close of his prayer he also thanks God he was not born in the body of a woman.
She said that was the prayer that was said in ancient times. I would like to see some sort of reference substantiating that. What someone is praying today does not prove what they said in ancient times.
Dr. Eliezer Segal is Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Calgary. A native of Montreal, he holds a PhD in Talmud from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. He is the author of Holidays, History, and Halakhah, and many of his writings can be found on his personal website.
The "has not created me a woman" blessing is part of a subgroup that expresses similar gratitude for not having been created a gentile (i.e., a heathen) or a slave. Differing liturgical traditions are at variance over whether these three blessings are to appear near the beginning of the sequence or at its conclusion.
This inconsistency attests to an important fact: The three "who has not made me" blessings were not originally part of the same set as the others. They originate in a separate Talmudic passage, ascribed to the second-century sage Rabbi Judah bar Ilai. Earlier versions of the tradition read "ignoramus" instead of "slave."
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/Liturgy_and_Prayers/Siddur_Prayer_Book/Preliminary_Readings/Who_Has_Not_Made_Me_a_Woman.shtml?p=1
In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?
But since Ellen White never said that we should ordain women to serve as gospel ministers (as that term is understood), there is no choice to be made on this question.
There we just read the words of Ellen White with a different attitude. As I have several times shown before, I see it clearly that this is what Ellen White claims, and it seems to me it is crystal clear as long as one has not developed a negative attitude based on old Roman Catholic and Jewish traditions as thanking God for not being born a woman.
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First it was Socrates (470-399 BC) who immortalized the Athenian disdain toward women. He was the first to refer to women as the weaker sex. He taught that: "Being born a woman is a divine punishment, since a woman is halfway between a man and an animal" (Bristow) (Plato, Timaeus, Baltimore: Penguin, 1965)
Dr. Bengt Hägglund, professor of history of Christian theology at the University of Lund, has shown how the teachings of the Christian church during the first centuries were shaped because the leaders of the church attempted to "improve" their teachings by adopting what was considered "better" in the teachings of the pagans etc. and finally adopted by the Roman Catholic church.
This shaped the view of the early Christians as they adopted the pagan view of women.
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In agreement with my acceptance of the Spirit of Prophecy I have chosen to side with Ellen White. What is your choice?
But since Ellen White never said that we should ordain women to serve as gospel ministers (as that term is understood), there is no choice to be made on this question.
There we just read the words of Ellen White with a different attitude. As I have several times shown before, I see it clearly that this is what Ellen White claims, and it seems to me it is crystal clear as long as one has not developed a negative attitude based on old Roman Catholic and Jewish traditions as thanking God for not being born a woman.
But I've never seen you quote here anything from Ellen White that calls for us to ordain women as gospel ministers. If you've found such a statement, by all means quote it here.
First it was Socrates (470-399 BC) who immortalized the Athenian disdain toward women. He was the first to refer to women as the weaker sex. He taught that: "Being born a woman is a divine punishment, since a woman is halfway between a man and an animal" (Bristow) (Plato, Timaeus, Baltimore: Penguin, 1965)
Dr. Bengt Hägglund, professor of history of Christian theology at the University of Lund, has shown how the teachings of the Christian church during the first centuries were shaped because the leaders of the church attempted to "improve" their teachings by adopting what was considered "better" in the teachings of the pagans etc. and finally adopted by the Roman Catholic church.
This shaped the view of the early Christians as they adopted the pagan view of women.
It makes your position look weak when you resort to pejorative comments about the other position, rather than showing from the Bible and/or Spirit of Prophecy that God wants women to serve in all positions of leadership, despite the curse of gen. 3, despite no women serving as Levitical priests, despite no women serving as some of the 12, and despite Paul's prohibition against such positions.
In short, it makes your position look very weak when the best you can come up with in support of your position is to accuse the other position of being pagan or Catholic.
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Ellen’s brother was not the last to object to her preaching. After speaking in a tiny Northern California town in 1880, she shared in a letter to her husband, James, some backstage information: “Elder Haskell talked in the afternoon and his labors were well received. I had in the evening, it was stated, the largest congregation that had ever assembled at Arbuckle. The house was full. Many came from five to ten and twelve miles. The Lord gave me special power in speaking. The congregation listened as if spell-bound. Not one left the house although I talked above one hour. Before I commenced talking, Elder Haskell had a bit [piece] of paper that was handed [him] in quoting [a] certain text prohibiting women speaking in public. He took up the matter in a brief manner and very clearly expressed the meaning of the apostles words. I understand it was a Cambelite [sic] who wrote the objection and it had been well circulated [among the audience] before it reached the desk; but Elder Haskell made it all plain before the people" (Letter 17a, April 1, 1880; Manuscript Releases, vol. 10, p. 70)
Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or publicly, to help forward this grand work. Place the burdens upon men and women of the church, that they may grow by reason of the exercise, and thus become effective agents in the hand of the Lord for the enlightenment of those who sit in darkness.—The Review and Herald, July 9, 1895.{PaM 224.3}
It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. —Manuscript Releases 19:56.{PaM 36.2}
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The first quote doesn't address the ordination of gospel ministers.
The second quote is referring to something akin to the work of deaconesses, which is not the same as that of gospel ministers.
The third quote gives no hint that it's talking about gospel ministers. It concerns sisters who were already present and active in a local church, and thus appears to be referring to prohibiting them from serving as treasurer, clerk, or board member. It's the laity that are supposed to be managing our local churches, not gospel ministers.
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When you reject the basic principle in the Sanctuary Doctrine and place a male priest as a must between Christ and any individual, you are reading Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy in a way to lead your Brothers and Sisters astray in the final battle between good and evil, and we have little to discuss, as long as you insist on deceiving the elect in your interpretation.
This is infiltrating a Roman Catholic doctrine into Adventism.
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When you reject the basic principle in the Sanctuary Doctrine and place a male priest as a must between Christ and any individual, you are reading Scripture and the Spirit of Prophecy in a way to lead your Brothers and Sisters astray in the final battle between good and evil, and we have little to discuss, as long as you insist on deceiving the elect in your interpretation.
This is infiltrating a Roman Catholic doctrine into Adventism.
Any cause that must resort to misrepresentation to win is an unrighteous one.
- The earthly sanctuary never had a woman priest. Only men could be priests.
- Adventists who believe that only men should be ordained to the gospel ministry do not believe that gospel ministers are priests between Christ and any person.
- Such statements as you have made are tantamount to saying that anyone who believes that the husband should be the head and the priest of his home is adopting Roman Catholicism, even though AH 212 plainly calls the father the priest of his household.
Rather than accusing those who believe the Bible of adopting a Catholic doctrine, show from the Scriptures that God has changed the order of things that He established at creation and the fall. If someone claims that God changed the Sabbath, we ask him where the Bible says so. Likewise, if you think God has changed the order of things that He Himself established, then show us where the Bible says so.
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Still waiting for a reply from Battle Creek to Bob's last post here.