Advent Talk
Theology Category => Doctrinal Discussions => Topic started by: reddogs on January 15, 2017, 02:47:21 AM
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We came across the question of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude which No One Could Number. It cause some issues as we struggled with it as the Adventist view is not clearly laid out and Ellen White held back for reasons which will become clear.
We have the following views in Adventism:
1. That these two groups of people are one and the same. However, I find some problems with this:
Issues with this view.
A. The 144,000 is specifically named from the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4) however, the Great Multitude comes from All Nations (Revelation 7:9)
B. The Great Multitude Could Not be Numbered (Revelation 7:9), however, 144,000 is a Numbered People (Revelation 7:4)
C. The 144,000 is specifically said to be those that "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb",(Revelation 7:14), "Virgins", and "were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14).
2. That the 144,000 are just symbolic
The issue with this is fairly straightforward.
A. Why give a specific number if its symbolic.
B. Why separate them from the Great Multitude which No One Could Number, why not just leave it at that.
3. That the 144,000 are those that are living and the 'first fruits' raised up to meet Him when Christ comes, and the dead saints in the grave are resurrected and both join in the air and then taken to heaven.
Lets go over it and see what we find:
First the Remnant.
According to Revelation, at the end there will be a people who have certain characteristics, they keep the commandments of God (Rev 12:17; 14:12) and they have the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17). We know them as the remnant, but there is also another end time group given, the 144,000.
Now Ellen White counseled that the identity of the 144,000 was not a question to allow division.: Ellen White in 1901 wrote: “It is not His [God’s] will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as, Who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand? This those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question.” [Ellen G. White, Selected Messages, book 1, p. 174.]The word “controversy” gives us a hint of what she was arguing against, and its clear that it will be made evident at the end to Gods elect.
Now the Church Militant and the Church triumphant.
Lets read Daniel 12:1
“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” Daniel 12:1
So we have a remnant who are a commandment keeping people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But this remnant must go through the tribulation and “the time of trouble, such as never”.
We have the following in SOP Counsels for the Church, Page 240:
“God has a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. The truth is a sanctifying power; but the church militant is not the church triumphant. There are tares among the wheat. “Wilt thou then that we ... gather them up?” was the question of the servant; but the master answered, “Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.” The gospel net draws not only good fish, but bad ones as well, and the Lord only knows who are His. CCh 240.1”
In the Great Controversy page 623, Ellen White has some very specific descriptions of those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes in the Most Holy Place:
“Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. “{GC 623.1}
So we have a church who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So the church itself must go through a shaking in which those on the side of Satan will be taken out, the tares will be separated from the wheat, and the people who are His, prepared to be the church triumphant.
We find in John 6:27 it tells us:
“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” John 6:27
We also find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23
“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”
So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed, and we also need prepare to be sealed, SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :
“Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God -- candidates for heaven..” {5T 216.2}
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Now lets look at Matthew 5:48 which has perplexed me for a long time as to when, and I am sure others also. Lets read what it has to say:
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.
Now SOP in Early Writings, Page 71, makes clear, at the end, we will be without an intercessor: “I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.” {EW 71.1} Its confirmed in the Great Controversy page 614, Ellen White states, “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” (GC 614).
Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. And yet from SOP, its clear there will be a time when there is no mediator at all, and in that time, “we must reflect the image of Jesus fully” SOP (7BC 977.11 ) says this represents the character of the people of God for these last days.
Now lets read John 16:25-27:
“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”
So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” Now the statement from Ellen White that we are to “stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator (GC 425) is clearer. As long as we need a mediator we will have one. But in John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ.
In Great Controversy page 614 we read, “When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement:”
Now let’s turn to a familiar verse in our Bibles in Revelation 22:11:
“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11
We find in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :
“It is now that we must keep ourselves and our children unspotted from the world. It is now that we must wash our robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. It is now that we must overcome pride, passion, and spiritual slothfulness....What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation?..Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}
In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21).
So these saints that live at the end during the time such as never was must not only overcome, but perfect and just like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless without a mediator with their robes washed in the blood of the lamb to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God.
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So lets look at the 144,000 starting at Revelation 7 verse 1:
“1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
Revelation 7:1-4
Some Christians assert that the text refers to Jews only so we first need to determine whether or not this 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from their 12 respective tribes. Lets turn to Galatians 3:29 and read it:
“29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29King James Version (KJV)
Next we read from Paul, the following of who is a true Jew in Romans 2:28-29:
“28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:28-29
Next we read from James what shows that the Apostles viewed the tribes in a spiritual sense. “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings” (James 1:1). The content of James’ letter is clearly addressed to Christians, and yet he plainly refers to them as spiritual Jews from 12 spiritual tribes. So its clear that it is referring to spiritual Israel regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile by blood.
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Now lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, “3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:
“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14
SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, Page 266: “The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people.." {3T 266.2}
So we see “in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God”.
So what description does scripture give, we find Revelation 14 verse 3 & 4:
“3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb..” Revelation 14:3-4
We see in verse 4 that these are ‘virgins’, or undefiled by the corruption Satan has out there in false doctrines or teachings. God’s end-time people are wholeheartedly dedicated to God following the Lamb wherever He goes.
We also read in the SOP in Reflecting Christ, p. 226, the terrible battle they will fight:“ In vision I saw two armies in terrible conflict. One army was led by banners bearing the world's insignia; the other was led by the bloodstained banner of Prince Immanuel. Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God. An angel flying in the midst of heaven put the standard of Immanuel into many hands, while a mighty general cried out with a loud voice: "Come into line. Let those who are loyal to the commandments of God and the testimony of Christ now take their position. Come out from among them, and be ye separate." The battle raged. Victory alternated from side to side. At last the victory was gained. The army following the banner with the inscription, "The commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus," was gloriously triumphant.... Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ.” This is the church triumphant, lets compare this to Revelation 14, verse 5:
“5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Revelation 14:5
SOP in the Great Controversy pages 648-649, tells us that they are those who are living at the end and have overcome:
“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." ….. they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments.
But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God.
Many Christians may think they can survive this time such as never was, but only a remnant “who have washed their robes and made them white” are prepared for it.?
Speaking of the 144,000 Ellen White explains: “Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them. What is it? It is an eternal weight of glory. Nothing could surpass it. {1SAT 72.3}
So how do we have our robes washed and be prepared, the SOP has the following in Steps to Christ pp. 64,65 :
“No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness . . . if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ . . . A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His Character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.” Steps to Christ pp. 64,65.
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So Ellen White says the living at the end comprise the 144,000 and are singled out and why, and thus its clear the resurrected or dead saints are separate from the 144,000.
“The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai.” CET 58.
...And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." GC 1888 page 649.
Experience and Views, Page 11, she speaks of the living saints at the time the voice of God is heard, as being 144,000 in number and the wicked being enraged and trying to rush violently up to lay hands on them those living at the end to put them in prison, and the saints "would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and the wicked would fall helpless to the ground."
Speaking of the 144,000 Ellen White explains: “Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them. What is it? It is an eternal weight of glory. Nothing could surpass it. {1SAT 72.3}
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So we see in Revelation 14:3-4:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
The 144,000 are distinct and more than just because they make it alive through the last days. For example the thief on the cross may wear a white robe when he gets to heaven but will not have the special distinctions which set aside the 144,000. They have a special relationship with the Lamb, and they are sealed with a special name. They also sing a special song and "stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world" right at the end and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ
So then in Revelation 7:9 after the 144,000 we read:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
These are not number like the 144,000 and are from all "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues", these are the many saints from across the ages, resurrected like Moses versus translated living like Enoch.
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EGW did not go into great complex detail because she understood simply the details of the 144,000. SDA's have long been in confusion of this because of explainable timing sequence that has been construed from lack of carefully reading. It's been my biggest question of why this confusion other then people coming to the conclusion that this is literal number or symbolic of the future. This should never have been in question. But understanding when the greatest time of tribulation for his "firstfruits" is documented is the biggest part of the confusion. I loaned an old time book out and tomorrow will try to pick it up so I can quote it exactly where the time of the greatest tribulation that EGW records is not in the future like we all have been preached to about, but has already happened with the martyrs and the first fruits that ascended with him already in heaven. These are the number already dressed in white with pomegrants and bells on their robes. Actually, the redeemed ask " who are these" They were the messengers that God would send to bring in the redeemed that has followed Jesus etc. etc. and in the temple that EGW was not permitted to see. These messengers all are those 12,000 from each tribe who have helped bring in the multitude of millions as they had a work to do also. States -caught up with the 144,000 already standing on the sea of glass where they will be awarded great rewards for bringing in the redeemed. It's just that simple as to all the years of SDA split in understanding and even our evangelists still think all is future. In past tense the 144,000 were already sealed and taken as first fruits to heaven. These 144,000 are in a living state as they were once martryed. It's states it right there in Revelation. This is why that anytime EGW speaks of someone passing like with Mrs. Hastings - it is always with the word " with" she will be with the 144,000. Never does she use the word "of" cause that would be subtraction and cause even more confusion of thinking you cannot make that number. The 144,000 does multiply the multitude. Now those standing on the sea of glass will be thanked by the redeemed as they reaped in the multitude by their work of messengers according to God's counsel. Read in the book "Story of Redemption" Very plain God and His Son into counsel for a plan and to hold the 4 winds until all can be sealed by the 3rd angels message in this era. He will send his (already sealed messengers that he told and showed John about). I will try to put the "quote" of the "greatest tribulation" in the truth about the timing sequence tomorrow when I retrieve my book. Our future tribulation is called the "time of trouble". So, many theorys to cause impossible perfected bumping system to make that number!! Thats whats wrong with wrong theory. and..she explained it is not important to know who the 144,000 is of which I agree. But the sequence and the work of it does give truth and no stress of it. Jesus is not in heaven with out many that already walked the earth. all have jobs and I am so thankful - he delayed until the 3rd angels message was given to all the world so the sealing of Sabbath in this era could be restored and fair to our generation.
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Oh Yes, and only those know the song of Moses! and yes they were already redeemed from the earth. The rest is God's mystery where these messengers (their work) were sent that would bring in the redeemed- the multitude.
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From The Bible Handbook by S.N. Haskel put out edition in 1919 on page 17 and under title Signs of Christ's Coming in the Heavens, It describes the time of the great tribulation time frame that makes a great difference where you choose or think of the time of great tribulation sequence where you start to put the 144,00 time frame at.
"Quote" Tribulation ceased about 1776. The 1260 years of Dan. 7:25 began 5:38 A.D. and ended 1798. The signs in the sun and moon were to be seen between the end of the tribulation and 1798 A.D. An account of the fulfillment is given in Websters Dictionary 1809 edition as follows-----
Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of the 1260 years--
Mark 15: 24 Darkened in the days, but after the tribulation.
So this is the time frame I believe of the martyrs that ascended from that era that went thru great tribulation. They are in a living state.
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Selected Messages Book Page 306 The ascension of Christ where he takes a multitude with him as" First fruits."
As Christ ascends while in the act of blessing, His disciples, as army of angels encircle Him as a cloud, Christ takes with Him the multitude of captives. He will Himself bring to the Father the first fruits of them that slept, as an evidence that He is conqueror of death and the grave. At the portals of the city of God, an innumerable company of angels await His coming. As they approach,-- the escorting angels address the company at the gate in triumphent tones.---
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Now we are safe to correctly believe When Rev 14 now concludes without doubt the 144,000. It tells that John looked and saw that company standing on Mt Sion with the Lamb having the Father's name written in their foreheads and what they are doing. The voices were as many waters and a great thunder of harpers harping with their harps. They were singing a new song before the throne that no other could learn as they were redeemed from the earth. They were redeemed from among men being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The lamb is now mentioned because the sacrificed has now happened. And these have ascended to heaven to be presented to the Father and the rest of description of their work also stated in rest of chapter. How much plainer can this be naming who the 144,000 are??? Now how did this topic come to years of confusion and hush hush from the SDA. EGW knew and was shown the 144,000 already there in the temple because Jesus took them already home to the Father at his Ascention. EGW in vision wanted to go there but not allowed.
It was never important to know who individually they were-as soon we would know. But it was proof of the future resurrection is truth and would happen and Christ asking the father for them to be with him where he was also. I love this story and this conclusion. For the whole story read chapter "first fruits" in Selected messages. I now do not have to worry if I can make that number. I just pray that I will be "with" that number as they help bring in the multitude along with those who have fallen asleep in the 3 angels message era that their works also follow them.
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Here is the clencher of fact.
Rev 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them... Notice it does not say that the 144,000 comes out of the great time of trouble that our time will have..
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Interesting subject,
and yes there are various understandings concerning the matter.
Here is another understanding.
-- The 144,000 are those who go through the shifting/shaking time and remain faithful. They receive the latter rain and in its power give the last loud cry or message to the world.
-- The great multitude are the ones that respond to the loud cry. They come from every tribe and nation, they too come out of the great endtime tribulation and wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
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So lets look at this a little closer:
-- The 144,000 are those who go through the shifting/shaking time and remain faithful. They receive the latter rain and in its power give the last loud cry or message to the world.
First read the chapter in Early Writings beginning on page 269 called the shaking.
In that chapter we see the church being brought to decision by the straight testimony. Some are agonizing in prayer, others are careless. The careless ones are shaken out, while those agonizing in prayer "gain the victory" with " deep repentance" truly receiving the straight testimony to Laodicea and obey it and are purified.
"...and they were clothed with an armor from their head to their feet. They moved in exact order, like a company of soldiers. Their countenances expressed the severe conflict which they had endured, the agonizing struggle they had passed through. Yet their features, marked with severe internal anguish, now shone with the light and glory of heaven."
"...I heard those clothed with the armor speak forth the truth with great power. It had effect. Many had been bound; some wives by their husbands, and some children by their parents. The honest who had been prevented from hearing the truth now eagerly laid hold upon it.
"... "It is the latter rain, the refreshing from the presence of the Lord, the loud cry of the third angel."
"...Great power was with these chosen ones. ...
Do a study on
--the shaking
--the loud cry
Before the loud cry can sound God must have a cleansed people -- a remnant --
Just like at Pentecost a small group praying and seeking the Lord (120 in number) were filled with the Holy Spirit before giving their "loud cry" to the world and winning a "multitude" in many nations. So God's remnant must be cleansed and filled with the Holy Spirit before the loud cry will be given.
They are the only ones who can sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb, for it is the song of their experience -- not only of their own personal salvation -- many others will sing of God's salvation as well, but Moses and the Lamb were willing to give everything for the salvation of others.
The 144,000, purified from sin and filled with the Holy Spirit, will risk everything to proclaim the last "loud cry" to world on the edge of eternity.
It will enrage the wicked to deadly fury.
There is no question -- these live in the end time for they are not fooled by the mark of the beast, they live through the great tribulation such as never was described in Daniel 12 as taking place just before the second coming -- not the 1260 years of tribulation. This remnant " be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."
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Looking at the second half of the equation:
-- The great multitude are the ones that respond to the loud cry. They come from every tribe and nation, they too come out of the great endtime tribulation and wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb
"... I heard voices which seemed to sound everywhere, "Come out of her, my people." . . . The glory of God rested upon the patient, waiting saints, and they fearlessly gave the last solemn warning, proclaiming the fall of Babylon and calling upon God's people to come out of her that they might escape her fearful doom. The light that was shed upon the waiting ones penetrated everywhere, and those in the churches who had any light, who had not heard and rejected the three messages, obeyed the call and left the fallen churches. {FLB 335}
"...The third angel's message is to lighten the earth with its glory; but only those who have withstood temptation in the strength of the Mighty One will be permitted to act a part in proclaiming it when it shall have swelled into the loud cry. {HS 155.3}
" I saw that God has honest children among the nominal (Millerite) Adventists and the fallen churches, and before the plagues shall be poured out, ministers and people will be called out from these churches and will gladly receive the truth. Satan knows this; and before the loud cry of the third angel is given, he raises an excitement in these religious bodies, that those who have rejected the truth may think that God is with them.--EW 261 (1858).
"Notwithstanding the spiritual darkness and alienation from God that exist in the churches which constitute Babylon, the great body of Christ's true followers are still to be found in their communion.--GC 390
The great work of the gospel is not to close with less manifestation of the power of God than marked its opening. The prophecies which were fulfilled in the outpouring of the former rain at the opening of the gospel, are again to be fulfilled in the latter rain at its close. . . . {LDE 203.1}
Servants of God, with their faces lighted up and shining with holy consecration, will hasten from place to place to proclaim the message from heaven. By thousands of voices, all over the earth, the warning will be given. Miracles will be wrought, the sick will be healed, and signs and wonders will follow the believers.--GC 611, 612
"There will be thousands converted to the truth in a day, who at the eleventh hour see and acknowledge the truth and the movements of the Spirit of God. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed" [Amos 9:13]. {1888 754.4}
So the 144,000 are represented by the angel of Rev. 18 that gives the loud cry calling God's people (the majority of whom are still in Babylon) to come out!
And while Babylon itself will react with fury and reject the message -- every honest follower of Christ will respond and come out and fully commit to Christ. A great multitude will respond.
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Thank you for your response. Since first realizing and hearing of the 144,000 I have to say it was a devestating doctrine for me and realized I could not be in that small number only taken. No way could I make that, I was young then and that made me very disheartened. I realized that since the beginning of time many multitudes would be taken but in these last days only a few would be saved with this theory Then I discovered it was a doctrine that the SDA was not in unity with. (literal, symbolic) now which is it.?? Still did not make sense and did not come full circle. Then the study began years ago. I have been very satisfied with your same thoughts and outcome of the last day messengers and their works as you commented on but still did not come full circle with complete feeling of "no doubt". more and more study in search of this matter. All evangelists have made study but all different. The above posts I made are i imagine hard to follow as you can't put all out there I think it would take years as long as I studied. lol My mind is very open to this study as I feel somewhere there is quite a simplicity made known that I am sure EWG was given and therefore sound doctrine.
So now I dig out my grandma's old books and finally come across articles that solidify the simplicity and all the rest I find is just a problem with timing and sequence of tribulation words and the "loud cry" brought on by the "Holy Spirit" and a great movement coming from that. Of course human instrument will be of use also as we both understand from your comments and that I know with out doubt also. But that does not exactly explain the 144,000 yet.
One of the books I find is comments by J.N. Loughborough. Of course then, the SDA REFORMERS still twist his words into still the above doctrine of only 144,000 living and going on this last day. Now here is where Loughborough states what happened to truth. I am now going to quote exactly as I read.
The presentation of the following pages to our people I deem to be in harmony with what is stated in "Testimonies for the church." vol. 7, page 288. etc.etc.
Of the benefit to be derived from the bringing of such things to the attention of our people, we read from the pen of Sister E.G. White, in the South African Missionary of February 20, 1911. We have nothing to fear from the future, except we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teachings in our past history
In reference to the subject matter of this book--the sealed 144,000 I have been greatly moved by the Spirit of God to write and publish the facts as to how the sealing message was obtained-- not only from the Bible but by direct instruction in visions of Sister E>G> White, also as to how the message was received and taught by our ministers and people down to the year 1894 when the "New light" theory found its advocate in one who afterwords apostatized from the faith, and died without seeing the fulfillment of his expectation that he would live to the end of time, and hence be one of the 144,000. His claim was that later testimonies of Sister White taught that all the 144,000 would be made up of those who had never died.
When I found that some were teaching that "all of the 144,000 who will be sealed are now living." I thought it time that some one should speak, and show that it is not the manner of God's prophets to make positive statements at one, and afterwards teach entirely contrary to them. Such surely was not the course of Bible prophets. The whole of this "new light" is produced by taking out of their connection and away from the things of which they are spoken, and giving them a general application, as you will see when we come to the analysis of this matter.
I presented the substance of this tract in two discourses on the Stockton camp ground. Those who heard the discourses, requested that it might be published so that they could have the reading of it.l As the subject is one on which there is some controversy, I thought our publishers would not wish to pring the matter in their papers, or take the responsibility of publishing it in any form. J.N. Loughborough, Lodi, California, JUly 1 1916
This is for the benefit of all Seventh Day Adventist who believe in the Advent Me3ssage to know the original teachings.
Notwithstanding these facts in the testimonies presented it is still urged by some, that what is said in "Great Controversy." page 649. shows that the 144,000 will be composed wholly of those who never died. Let us see what is said, and the condition under which the said statement occurs.
"Thses having been translated from the earth, from among the living are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb" "These are they which come our of great tribulation, they have passed through the tribulation such as never was since there was a nation."
Now back to me again, Loughborough knew that even the ones that gave the 3rd angels message and died giving and raised in "special resurrection" still would not be "of" the 144,000. EGW commented many times of friends giving the 3rd angels message that died would be "with" the 144,000 and not counted as "one of". But they would have special resurrection. Those (first fruits) were taken and surround the throne day and night taken as first fruits to heaven with the Son at the ascension.
They were prefigured. ( Represented of something beforehand) Sealed and in past tense of Rev. all the qualification of those martyrs are given to us as examples that previously went thru same. Our time is called the time of Jacobs Trouble coming up and in it starting as prophecy fulfilling right now.
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The 144,000 Without Guile.--One of the marked features in the "representation" of the 144,000 is that in their mouth there was found no guile. The Lord has said, "Blessed is the man . . . in whose spirit there is no guile." They profess to be children of God, and are represented as following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. They are prefigured before us as standing on Mount Zion, girt for holy service, clothed in white linen, which is the righteousness of the saints. But all who follow the Lamb in heaven will first have followed Him on earth, in trustful, loving, willing obedience, followed Him not fretfully and capriciously, but confidently, truthfully, as the flock follows the shepherd. . . . {3SM 424.2} .... and the first fruits that went to heaven at the ascension did that for our example. and also their works do follow them again as the 3rd angels messages was sounded of 1844. Now that age will have their special resurrection just before the coming. After years it all seems to finally be quite simply once all is in place and not just picked over here and there to all different theories. The rest of story after reading L.N. Loughborough is that I have what they call an index book of all the Bible and each text used by EGW in every aspect or context of how many times she used each bible verse in all her books. When you do this it leads straight to the truth of the context she writes about with no doubt. I feel it's quite amazing. and that understanding was given to her when the sealing message was delivered. But later confusion made it tabu to SDA to this day still divided over literal and symbolism.
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Here is interesting thought also. Great Controversy p. 665.
"Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, (but who, plucked as brands from the burning,) Now who would that be if not the very jews that speaks of the crucifixtion of the Son of God cursed for the burning!) ...but who, plucked as brands from the burning having followed their Saviour with deep, intense, devotion. These would be the "firstfruits" taken at the ascension would be my thought for this era as only they could sing "the song of Moses" for only their experience.
Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, (of all ages,) who were martyred for their faith. That era would be the time of "The greatest tribulation of 1260 years that ended and they would sing a " New Song"
And now: our era - And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues... before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. and they sing the "song Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb"
Do we still have to wonder who the 144,000 is and the prefigured way of God"s plan is in all era's? I am just very satisfied and happy that it's now greatly possible I can be in the great multitude brought by the messengers of all eras that their works do follow them and to our day the writings of His chosen vessel that complied. I am happy for this. This may not be perfect but I feel pretty close. The perfect study would be to take index book just in revelation only and copy all her writings in context pertaining only to the 144,000 and that would be perfect truth.
I still would like any comments where things could be error for thought.
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Here is Ellen White on this question..
Author:
Ellen G. White Estate
A collection of Ellen G. White statements relating to the 144,000.
(See The Great Controversy, pp. 648,649 for basic statement)
A Non-Essential Question
"Christ says that there will be those in the church who will present fables and suppositions, when God has given grand, elevating, ennobling truth, which should ever be kept in the treasure-house of the mind. When men pick up this theory and that theory, when they are curious to know something it is not necessary for them to know, God is not leading them. It is not His plan that His people shall present something which they have to suppose, which is not taught in the Word. It is not His will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand. Those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question.
"My brethren and sisters, appreciate and study the truths God has given for you and your children. Spend not your time in seeking to know that which will be no spiritual help. 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' This is the all-important question, and it has been clearly answered. 'What is written in the law? How readest thou?" -Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 174, 175.
Strive to Be Among the 144,000
"Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty-four thousand. And let us do all that we can to help others to gain heaven." -Review and Herald; March 9, 1905.
Mrs. White and the 144,000
"The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. . . . I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, 'You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000,* shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God."-Early Writings, pp. 39, 40.
Mrs. Hastings to Be With the 144,000
"I saw that she [Mrs. Hastings, who had just died] was sealed and would come up at the voice of God and stand upon the earth, and would be with the 144,000. I saw we need not mourn for her; she would rest in the time of trouble."-Letter 10, 1850 (2SM 263).
Silence is Eloquence
[The following letter from C. C. Crisler, leading secretary in Mrs. White's office, addressed to Elder E. E. Andross, president of the Pacific Union Conference, was called forth by a request from him to Sister White for any light she might have bearing on the teachings of Dr. B. E. Fullmer of Los Angeles, that the 144,000 will be made up of Americans only, none from other lands.]
"Elmshaven, Sanitarium, California, December 8, 1914. Dear Brother Andross: During the few minutes remaining of the noon hour before close of mails, after receiving your special delivery letter of inquiry, I sent you a hurried reply to your communication, promising further word by wire. Tonight I am sending [you] the following telegraphic letter:
"'Mrs. White instructs me to inform you she has no light further than that the presentation of uncertainties as certainties, and the urging of mysteries as revealed truths, is perilous and leads to disappointment. She suggests building on Holy Scriptures, the true foundation, rather than on personal conjecture.-C. C. Crisler.'
"When reading the letter to Sister White, and listening to her remarks in response, I had with me as a witness Elder D. E. Robinson.
"'I have no light on the subject,' she said, upon hearing the letter. 'It is a very delicate time in which we are living - a time when we must individually cling to the Lord with all the powers of our being.' She said further:
"Those who urge theories regarding matters that are not revealed, are placing themselves where they are in peril of meeting with disappointments. "Hide yourself in God; hide your mysteries in God"- these words have been repeated during the night season, over and over again. From the first, I have been instructed that the Lord Jesus can give counsel that will not bring disappointment.
"'Please tell my brethren that I have nothing presented before me regarding the circumstances concerning which they write, and I can set before them only that which has been presented to me.
"'There are those who attempt to deal with uncertainties as certainties; and when they reach this position, they are where it is possible for the enemy to use them.
"'In the past, light has been given me repeatedly that when a crisis arises, we are to take the counsel of God, and trace interestedly every item that presents the truth in its verity.
"'The greatest help will come when we see the influence of the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. Their influence is to lead us to stand on an exalted basis, where we will build our faith and the faith of others, not on this one's say-so, and that one's say-so, and another one's say-so, but on the real foundation, the Word of the living God.'
"I have tried to write out from my notes the words spoken by Sister White after listening to your letter and to portions of the letter written by me, also to my hastily written reply to you. By no word or sign did Sister White attempt to say which party is right and which party is wrong. In no wise did she make any comment on my letter you, and, so far as we could understand, in no wise did she attempt to interpret or explain that which she has written in former years regarding the 144,000. But, rising above mere detail, she outlined the principles set forth above.
"I have nothing to add to that which I wrote at noon. Yes, there is one comment Sister White did make when I was reading to her my letter. She expressed pleasure over the fact that I had included in my letter to you the words, 'On the matter of the exact meaning of the 144,000 Sister White has repeatedly instructed us that "silence is eloquence."'
"She also commented favorably upon hearing the words with which I closed, 'So far as I now know, no one knows the full truth of the matter, nor will we know until we are on the other side of Jordan.'
"I feel confident, Elder Andross, that the brethren in southern California will find blessing in reviewing the teachings of Scripture concerning the 144,000, and bringing to bear upon these teachings whatever light there may be in the published writings of Sister White. And as prayerful consideration is given the matter in all its bearings, I believe that God will make the truth sufficiently clear to make possible the avoidance of needless and unprofitable controversy over questions not vital to the salvation of precious souls.
"With kindest regards, and praying that God may give breadth of sympathy as well as clarity of vision to those called upon to handle this perplexing problem that has arisen, I am as ever, Yours truly, C. C. Crisler." https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/theology-second-advent/counsel-regarding-question-144000
Ellen G. White Estate December 21, 1964 Revised September, 1990
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*Note: Observe that the promise was given to Mrs. White that if she was faithful, she with the 144,000 would have certain privileges.