Advent Talk
Theology Category => Doctrinal Discussions => Topic started by: Fair Havens on January 28, 2008, 07:42:21 PM
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John begins his gospel by stating "In the Beginning" what is this beginning? Is it the beginning of ...God ? But God can't have a beginning can He? Can He have a beginning and still be God? A beginning implies an ending but God cannot end because he is eternal and if eternal could not possibly have had a beginning. What is the beginning referred to here? Is it the beginning of creation, then? Is this beginning the same as which Moses refers to when he states "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth [Gen 1:1] ?
Somebody, anybody, help me out here, please.
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A very good question, Fair Heavens. Scripture is the history of how God deals with man, and that history has a beginning, even if God does not. Genesis tells us how the creative power of God worked in the beginning of our world. John 1 tells us that our God, the one who spoke the powerful word which created this world, entered the same world and combined his divinity with our humanity in order to save all those who believe in Him, and give us back the eternal life man had in the beginning.
So there is a new beginning for every human being who hears His Word, and accepts it by faith. When you thank Him in your sincere prayer for this gift, it is yours, and he gives you the faith you need, and willingness to let Him guide you into His truth as a Christian, as His child, redeemed from sin to live a completely new life. That is your new beginnng.
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"A beginning implies an ending..."
Why?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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"A beginning implies an ending..."
Why?
Whatever has a start point has an end point. Something that is self-generated and is self-sustained can continue its existence but a thing created has a beginning and therefore can be brought to an
end. Even this created universe and our world -the Earth - will come to an end. Says Peter:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great
noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that all these things shall be dissolved... .
God, in contrast, declares I AM . He IS.
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A beginning though doesnt necessarily mean an ending, as will be in the case of a new heaven and a new earth.
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A beginning though doesnt necessarily mean an ending, as will be in the case of a new heaven and a new earth.
What does "new" imply in Scripture? With God's sustaining power what is untainted by sin does not deteriorate. Therefore it remains "new" forever. A heaven where sin has not reached remains new.
Even a beginning remains new when God's creative power is present.
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Just something to think about.
Take out a piece of paper and a pencil. Put the pencil down on the paper--anywhere on the paper. Now, with a circular motion of the wrist, draw a circle. Lift your pencil from the paper and observe: where there once was a beginning there was also an end, but neither the beginning nor the end are henceforth discernable. The beginning and the end are reconciled one to the other and the circle is complete.
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We were created as linear beings. God sees the beginning from the end because He is on the outside of linear time. I can't wait to experience the eternal presence of God. I hope I am counted among the worthy.
Respectfully,
Willow
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John begins his gospel by stating "In the Beginning" what is this beginning?
I have always read this passage to mean that "in the beginning" (whatever 'beginning' we choose to think of), God was already in existence. (Since we are finite, we cannot comprehend the infinite God.)
The text says nothing about the beginning of God -- just that God was there "in the beginning."
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And there will be an end to the history of the present sinful world, but God will still be there. That is our hope and comfort!
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Willow Run,
We were created as linear beings. God sees the beginning from the end because He is on the outside of linear time.
I take it from this that you are interested in the concept of the eternity of God. Anyone who is interested in doctrine will much enjoy a book from the ABC, Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology. On page 109 of this book is a discussion of God's time. Hear Dr. Canale makes some interesting statements:
It is only through Greek philosophy that "Eternity is the total absence of time and anything related to time."
"The eternity of God is not alien to our time. God's time is, however, qualitatively different from our time, not in that it denies time but in that it both integrates and surpasses it."
"Paul tells us that the plan of salvation was decided 'before the foundation of the world.' (Eph. 1:4) ... Paul's statement that the plan of salvation was 'hidden for ages in God who created all things' (Eph. 3:9) points to past eternity as involving time as a characteristic of God's eternity."
"To try to define God's time would clearly be a speculative attempt . . . . here silence is eloquence."
The discussion gets pretty deep, and a person has to be careful here. I thought it was interesting. To put it all into one sentence, Dr. Canale would say that, "God has a history."
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Hubert F. Sturges
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And the Bible is THE history of God dealing with HIS people - is that right?
The Bible (Rev) speaks of when time shall be no more. Does that only deal with prophetic time, or could that have a greater meaning?
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"A beginning implies an ending..."
Why?
Whatever has a start point has an end point. Something that is self-generated and is self-sustained can continue its existence but a thing created has a beginning and therefore can be brought to an
end. Even this created universe and our world -the Earth - will come to an end. Says Peter:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in
the which the heavens shall pass away with a great
noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, and
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing that all these things shall be dissolved... .
God, in contrast, declares I AM . He IS.
I just heard Jack Van Pelt present an argument that the Bible teaches the Earth shall never be destroyed and this quickly lead to a premise that the millenium was a thousand year rule by Christ on this earth, therefore we will be here until at least 3012!!! Now, is that a classic example of "Peace, Peace" and a dead ringer setup for the coming of the Anti-Christ that Mrs White so clearly defines in The Great Controversy???
It is just the tip of the great deception, but certainly heralds loudly just where we are in earths history and the duty we have to proclaim the truth to a deceived and dying world.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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This is a tongue-in-cheek reply:
"We were created as linear beings."
If this is true, why do I keep going in circles?
Hakim
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I take it from this that you are interested in the concept of the eternity of God. Anyone who is interested in doctrine will much enjoy a book from the ABC, Handbook of Seventh-day Adventist Theology. On page 109 of this book is a discussion of God's time. Hear Dr. Canale makes some interesting statements:
It is only through Greek philosophy that "Eternity is the total absence of time and anything related to time."
"The eternity of God is not alien to our time. God's time is, however, qualitatively different from our time, not in that it denies time but in that it both integrates and surpasses it."
"Paul tells us that the plan of salvation was decided 'before the foundation of the world.' (Eph. 1:4) ... Paul's statement that the plan of salvation was 'hidden for ages in God who created all things' (Eph. 3:9) points to past eternity as involving time as a characteristic of God's eternity."
"To try to define God's time would clearly be a speculative attempt . . . . here silence is eloquence."
The discussion gets pretty deep, and a person has to be careful here. I thought it was interesting. To put it all into one sentence, Dr. Canale would say that, "God has a history."
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Hubert F. Sturges
My copy of that excellent book is still stored in a box since our last move. Glad you bring some nuggets from it. :TY:
We could discuss many interesting aspects of time. God deals with man in time - and in the history of this world. But how do we deal with time outside of our own planet? No other planet in our own solar system has a 24-hour day, nor a 365-day year, so time is quite different when we get outside the reach of our own planet, earth. I believe it was one of the contributors to that book, Dr. Dederen, I once heard state that the celebration of a 24-hour Sabbath Day is limited to our planet. The reason being that a day is measured differently in different parts of the universe. Will the measurement of time in different cycles influence our concept of time?
I am satisfied that God became man and dealt with me in the time and history of this world. Sin only exists within the time frame of our planet, and therefore it would not surprise me if our whole concept of time will be expanded as we leave the tarnished realm of sin behind. But I hesitate measuring this out as linear or circular time. I do not have the scientific background to see it in such concepts. Or is there any truth in relativity claiming that if you board a rocket traveling faster than light, you can take off from earth today and come back yesterday? If God is almighty, can He do that? That is beyond human understanding, but with God all things are possible . . . ?
What I need to know is that God is capable of taking care of me, and cover me in His robe of righteousness.
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Johann,
You offer some interesting philosophical notes on time. Philosophy is not my long suit, so I look at it as interesting -- unless it is grossly false, such as what the evolutionists come up with.
About the human condition: I believe that time allows us to organize our lives. What would life be like if we could take off for the some distant planet and come back yesterday, last week, etc. Would we then have to live that day, week, etc over again? Or could we then modify our interactions with others? Thus history would be a fluid thing -- being constantly modified.
Material existence, living on this earth, and the laws of gravity and physics help us to organize and keep our things in place. It gives us a work to do. These physical realities are what we see as a "real existence." Will living in the New Earth be a real existence? I believe that the picture we get from the Bible is that we do live real lives. If Eden will be restored, we will have trees, vines, houses, real food, etc. I believe that God "loves material," He made so much of it!
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Hubert F. Sturges
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Hubert,
Philosophy is not my cup of tea. Physics and astronomy were among my favorite subjects many years ago, so it is more from that perspective I approach the idea of time. But those subjects 60 years ago were so different from what is known today. . .
Now that I am retired, and theoretically can do just what I want to do, time becomes even more important, and I must aske the Lord to guide me even more in my selections in what to do.
We believe there will be a thousand year period when we will be living apart from the time limits of this earth. If the years there do not consist of 365 24-hour time periods, how will we know when the 1000 years are finished? Or will that not make any difference to us?
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My mother used to warn me that one fool can ask a questions which 10 wise men will not be able to answer.
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I would like to say I appreciate all the different posts in this forum. I am learning a lot.
My take is probably a bit simplistic.
First I had read Genesis and the story of the world being made in seven days.
Then in John when he talked about "In the beginning..." I assumed he was talking about the beginning of God making our earth. I had believed that God is forever, no begining and no end.
Just like Jesus had said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."
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And the wonderful thing about God is that he gives the sinner a new beginning when he comes to Christ in repentance., and starts teaching the sinner "all things" that pertain to salvation and sanctification.
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A belated "Amen" in response to the last post here. :)
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A belated "Amen" in response to the last post here. :)
What was that again?
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When is the beginning and the end? Creation? Sabbath?
There is an item you need badly, but the current price is higher than what your budget allows right now. It is Saturday afternoon and you have had sundown worship with your family when you pick up the mail you had not read the last few days. There is an advertisement for the item you need at a special sale price which closes today. The store happens to be in a different time zone where the sun has not set yet. If you had been at the place where the store is you would never have gone in there to do business on the Sabbath. But now you happen to be where the sun has set, and you can call the store and make you order by phone. You have to hurry to make it before that store closes.
What is the appropriate thing to do?
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That is a very very easy question to answer. Obviously you will not buy it because you value the Sabbath sacredness more than the item you are trying to purchase.
But a harder question to answer is how can something be perfect and then make itself imperfect? The term perfect by its very nature would make the thing incapable of being imperfect. Unless our definition of perfection is incorrect. And how can perfection create imperfection? Something to ponder, but not get confused with because God in time will answer all questions. Better to do good and love thy neighbor than to make an excuse for evil (smile).
When is the beginning and the end? Creation? Sabbath?
There is an item you need badly, but the current price is higher than what your budget allows right now. It is Saturday afternoon and you have had sundown worship with your family when you pick up the mail you had not read the last few days. There is an advertisement for the item you need at a special sale price which closes today. The store happens to be in a different time zone where the sun has not set yet. If you had been at the place where the store is you would never have gone in there to do business on the Sabbath. But now you happen to be where the sun has set, and you can call the store and make you order by phone. You have to hurry to make it before that store closes.
What is the appropriate thing to do?
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My son attended Washington University in St. Louis, Mo. He had a Professor,who said that she believed in the Big Bang, but that God created the Big Bang. the kids just looked at her. She looked back, because this was a Science class. She asked them,why this was so hard to believe and to imagine, what it would have been like. Imagine, she said.. blackness.. and then God speaks..and then there is something from nothing.. Can you imagine the "BANG"!!?