Advent Talk
Theology Category => Dreams & Visions => Topic started by: Johann on January 29, 2008, 04:22:32 AM
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I counted it a great privilege that we used books by Ellen White as our English textbooks in school for three years. We missed some of the classic textbooks, but what did we miss? Later, at Emmanuel Missionary College, I was introduced to some of the Classic writers in our English classes. But then we were, at times in Bible classes expected to memorize whole paragraphs from her writings.
Are we sufficiently exposed to her writings - or too much - in our school systems today?
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I counted it a great privilege that we used books by Ellen White as our English textbooks in school for three years. We missed some of the classic textbooks, but what did we miss? Later, at Emmanuel Missionary College, I was introduced to some of the Classic writers in our English classes. But then we were, at times in Bible classes expected to memorize whole paragraphs from her writings.
Are we sufficiently exposed to her writings - or too much - in our school systems today?
It's quite awhile since our kids were at school, but I don't believe that kids are growing up with the exposure to SOP that many older people have memories of.
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Can there really ever be too much??? That is heresy!!!
That is the equivalent of saying that one can get too
much Bible study...another Heresy.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Can there really ever be too much??? That is heresy!!!
That is the equivalent of saying that one can get too
much Bible study...another Heresy.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I'd say our exposure to the writings of Ellen White greatly expanded our world view and made it easier to understand the Bible.
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Didn't she refer to her writings as the lesser light leading to the greater light?
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Didn't she refer to her writings as the lesser light leading to the greater light?
I recall reading that in her writings.
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I found that when I became interested in spiritual things a number of years ago, I was unable to understand or get much out of the Bible (King James version!). But reading Ellen White became very fascinating to me, and after a while I was able to understand and appreciate the Bible.
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Could that be one of the main reasons why we have her writings in the first place?
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I think so, Daryl! :)
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When I was 12 years old I read Steps to Christ over and over. This reading led me to a real experience with Christ and I requested baptism.
Later in my ministry I met Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, who were brought to Christ by reading Steps to Christ. Where else do you find a book like that?
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That book and Desire of Ages are very special books.
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That book and Desire of Ages are very special books.
Desire of Ages was given to us as a Baptismal gift, some 37 years ago. It is very special.
My main concerns with Ellen White's books are with the compilations, which can be taken out of context and can be made to say what people want them to say.
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I agree with the part about making things written by Ellen White say what people want them to say.
I believe that using things she wrote to improperly advance questionable agendas has caused a lot of prejudice against her writings, and that it has happened in some ways imperceptibly and over a period of decades.
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I agree with the part about making things written by Ellen White say what people want them to say.
I believe that using things she wrote to improperly advance questionable agendas has caused a lot of prejudice against her writings, and that it has happened in some ways imperceptibly and over a period of decades.
In my experience, many people do not understand that many books are compilations. Many do not realise that they need to go back to the original source, if they are going to read everything in context.
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I think that you're right that a lot of people don't bother to notice the difference between compilations and the original entire books.
I've gotten some value for myself from various compilations too, though, for certain subjects.
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Some have said that with compilations you can give Ellen White a rubber nose. This is even true about the Bible. So it is important that we have a general view, something Ellen White refers to again and again. If there is something we do not quite understand, then let it rest until other sections we read give us a clearer understanding.
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This is even true about the Bible. So it is important that we have a general view, something Ellen White refers to again and again. If there is something we do not quite understand, then let it rest until other sections we read give us a clearer understanding.
So correct!
And I may add that the SOP counsels and writings are like adding salt when cooking. Salt will not diminish the flavor nor rescind of the nutrients, it will simply enhance the flavor of the main course making it palatable. However, try adding much more than the needed salt -either while cooking or at the table- and you will get a negative reaction from the invited participants. I've seen it happen quite often.
Let's enjoy "eating" God's Word on a daily basis. Let's add flavor to the main course by adding some of the "lesser light" salt. It will enhance the flavor indeed.
keep the faith, and Have a great Sabbath lunch today! ;)
--Dan
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This is even true about the Bible. So it is important that we have a general view, something Ellen White refers to again and again. If there is something we do not quite understand, then let it rest until other sections we read give us a clearer understanding.
So correct!
And I may add that the SOP counsels and writings are like adding salt when cooking. Salt will not diminish the flavor nor rescind of the nutrients, it will simply enhance the flavor of the main course making it palatable. However, try adding much more than the needed salt -either while cooking or at the table- and you will get a negative reaction from the invited participants. I've seen it happen quite often.
Let's enjoy "eating" God's Word on a daily basis. Let's add flavor to the main course by adding some of the "lesser light" salt. It will enhance the flavor indeed.
keep the faith, and Have a great Sabbath lunch today! ;)
--Dan
Thank you, brother! Good to have you join us in this discussion. This was just the gem I needed for today. A good reminder to study the Word of God diligently. Of that we never get too much. And my wife and I enjoy a text and a section by Ellen White every morning for worship. What a blessing!
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This is even true about the Bible. So it is important that we have a general view, something Ellen White refers to again and again. If there is something we do not quite understand, then let it rest until other sections we read give us a clearer understanding.
So correct!
And I may add that the SOP counsels and writings are like adding salt when cooking. Salt will not diminish the flavor nor rescind of the nutrients, it will simply enhance the flavor of the main course making it palatable. However, try adding much more than the needed salt -either while cooking or at the table- and you will get a negative reaction from the invited participants. I've seen it happen quite often.
Let's enjoy "eating" God's Word on a daily basis. Let's add flavor to the main course by adding some of the "lesser light" salt. It will enhance the flavor indeed.
keep the faith, and Have a great Sabbath lunch today! ;)
--Dan
Thank you Brother for your wise consideration of this important matter. If we miss just one of those 'ingredients' from our spiritual food, something that would make the food 'delicious' is missing, and we receive just a medicore meal instead.
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So much said in so few words, that I sense you have the instincts of a poet, Dan. :)
Thank you for this concise and picturesque summary.
... the SOP counsels and writings are like adding salt when cooking. Salt will not diminish the flavor nor rescind of the nutrients, it will simply enhance the flavor of the main course making it palatable. However, try adding much more than the needed salt -either while cooking or at the table- and you will get a negative reaction from the invited participants. I've seen it happen quite often.
Let's enjoy "eating" God's Word on a daily basis. Let's add flavor to the main course by adding some of the "lesser light" salt. It will enhance the flavor indeed.
...
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I agree with the part about making things written by Ellen White say what people want them to say.
I believe that using things she wrote to improperly advance questionable agendas has caused a lot of prejudice against her writings, and that it has happened in some ways imperceptibly and over a period of decades.
That is one perspective, but I would propose that the problem with the Spirit of Prophecy is that it pointedly tells us our sins, calls us to repentance and then demands that we actually practice our Faith and Share our Faith. That is an onerous requirement for so many, just as it was for the Rich Young Ruler in Christ's day.
The abbrogation of the Spirit of Prophecy also explains clearly the Laodicean State of the Seventh-day Adventist Church today.
The constant complaint for so many is that the Spirit of Prophecy was stuffed down their throats...but in plain English, it pointed out thier sins and they did not like it!!! That is why leadership avoids it today!!! It is pointed and calls for a "primitive Godliness" that is currently out of vogue. But it is COMING BACK!!!
If their is an error today it is that SDA students are not required to read the entire conflict of the ages series nor are they given the opportunity to read the counsels given by this Reflection of God's Wisdom for our day.
For those who do not know, The Ellen G White Estate now has the entire Writings of Ellen G. White available on-line. I have found it a bit easier to read the testimonies on my computer screen and be able to search collateral topics on the computer. The CD is OK but the online version I have found very good to work with and easy to read and I can tag and return to where I stopped so I do not have to worry about the grandchildren loosing my bookmark!!!
I recently enjoyed the compilation "Christian Leadership" and am currently married to Testimonies, Volume 9, particularly specific advise for where our efforts should be in these very closing hours of earth's history...a real cry for us to awaken and Share the Faith.
It takes courage to read the Spirit of Prophecy and Faith to actually apply it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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There is definitely no reason to hold back in your reading of Ellen White. With the guidance of the Spirit you will reap a great blessing.
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I find this to be a refreshing discussion on the writings of EGW in comparison to other not so lovely discussions on some of the other forums.
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I find this to be a refreshing discussion on the writings of EGW in comparison to other not so lovely discussions on some of the other forums.
Maybe, because people show that they respect other people's opinions?
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Have just been reading some chapters in The Great Controversy. The first three chapters in Revelation are prophecies of how the church will develop from the time of the Apostles to the time of the end.
The Bible contains the history of the Church from the beginning to the times of the Apostles. Where do we find the best account of the Church from the time of the Apostles to the End? Anyone found a better one than the Great Controversy? This is the continuation of the Bible Story. How important is that to us?
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By beholding we become changed. If we want to become more Christlike in this critical moment in earths history, there is no better contemporary expose than the Testimony of Ellen G. White. Every book this Lady has written perfectly divines God's purpose and character. Read it and become changed!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Sister White tells us that we are to carefully guard the avenues to the soul. We are what we see, read and hear as it ultimately becomes our character, which is the only thing we take to Heaven from this Earth.
Sister White tells us: "The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society". Quoted from: "Mind, Character and Personality, Volume 2, Page 620, Paragraph 2".
I agree: "By beholding, we become changed". Sister White is a wonderful inspiration to me in my studies and I so enjoy all of her writings.
Jodi
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A discovery worth making at an early stage of life. :sabbath: And :welcome: JODY!
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“I'd say our exposure to the writings of Ellen White greatly expanded our world view and made it easier to understand the Bible.” Johann
“Didn't she refer to her writings as the lesser light leading to the greater light?” Daryl Fawcett
“Let's enjoy "eating" God's Word on a daily basis. Let's add flavor to the main course by adding some of the "lesser light" salt. It will enhance the flavor indeed.” Dan Pabon
It was most refreshing to read through this thread and see the positive comments on Ellen White.
But I do have a question on the thought—I think now widely believed in Adventism—that Ellen White’s writings are the “lesser light” pointing to the Bible as the “greater light.”
My feet are taking me up onto a soapbox and I don’t seem able to resist. Please know I am committed to coming down again. But first, could I try to explain.
Sometimes I think the issue is just one of semantics. Anyone who reads her book, The Great Controversy, cannot but understand the strength of Ellen White’s counsel that our only safety is to judge every doctrine, statement, miracle and happening by the teachings of the Bible. These thoughts are given sharp focus in the chapter, “The Scriptures Our Safeguard.” If it is these thoughts that are being expressed—that Ellen White’s writings are the “lesser light” in that they must be tested by the teachings of Scripture—then I can only say a hearty Amen. Jesus Himself gave us an example in this regard, by always meeting questions and countering Satan’s temptations with “It is written.” Then after the cross He strengthened the faith of His disciples by “beginning at Moses and all the prophets” (Luke 24:27) and pointing out all the prophecies describing the mighty events then transpiring.
But if by using the words “lesser light” and “greater light” the implied meaning is that Ellen White, though a prophet of God, is less inspired than the prophets or “holy men” He called in Bible times—I could not agree. I do not believe a prophet of God is less of a prophet and less inspired, because he or she did not live in Bible times and have his or her writings included in the canon of Scripture.
I believe Inspiration says it is Christ who is the greater light, and there are good reasons why it should be Him rather than the Bible that is represented by the “greater light” expression.
John 5:39, 40 helps to explain: “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” While searching the Scriptures, the Jews crucified Jesus. There should not be, but there can be an exceeding great difference between coming to the Bible as the greater light, and coming to Jesus as the greater light.
We have probably all heard the analogy of a pregnant woman. Either a woman is pregnant, or she is not pregnant. There’s no in between state. Even if a woman at nine months might look more pregnant than a woman one month along the way, the plain fact is that both women are pregnant, both are in the act of producing a baby. Likewise, as I see it, whether living in ages past or in recent times, either someone presenting as a prophet is a prophet inspired of God and called to be a mouthpiece for Him; or he or she is not inspired of God, not called, and guilty of being an impostor, a false prophet.
What does Ellen White herself say about the usage of the "greater" and "lesser light" metaphor (though I think the expression is this and more. Christ is both symbolically and literally a blazing light)? We all know how dangerous it is to base a teaching upon one isolated statement. Yet, if I have it right, this is exactly what has been done in the effort to establish that the Bible is the greater light to which Ellen White’s writings point. I can find only one statement upon which this teaching is based, and it is ambiguous at that.
“Little heed is given to the Bible, and the Lord has given a lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light.” (The Review and Herald, Jan. 20, 1903. Quoted in Colporteur Ministry, p. 125.)
At first glance this sentence appears to support the belief that the Bible is the “greater light.” But below, highlighted in blue, is this statement in context. I have placed my own understandings in square brackets. If I am reading matters incorrectly, I’d be very glad if someone could explain. I believe the “lesser light” to which Ellen White is making reference is indeed her writings as inspired of God. But the “greater light” of which she is speaking is the person of Jesus Christ.
“Sister White is not the originator of these books. They contain the instruction that during her life-work God has been giving her. They contain the precious, comforting light that God has graciously given his servant to be given to the world. From their pages this light [Sister White’s writings are the “lesser light” here described] is to shine into the hearts of men and women, leading them to the Saviour [the “greater Light”]. The Lord has declared that these books are to be scattered throughout the world. There is in them truth which to the receiver is a savor of life unto life. They [Ellen White’s writings, the “lesser light”] are silent witnesses for God [the “greater Light”]. In the past they have been the means in his hands of convicting and converting many souls. Many have read them with eager expectation, and, by reading them [the “lesser light”], have been led to see the efficacy of Christ's atonement, and to trust in its power [the “greater light” is Christ]. They have been led to commit the keeping of their souls to their Creator, waiting and hoping for the coming of the Saviour [the Creator and Saviour is clearly what and who Ellen White had in mind as the “greater light”] to take his loved ones to their eternal home. In the future, these books are to make the gospel plain to many others, revealing to them the way of salvation.
“The Lord has sent his people much instruction, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, and there a little. Little heed is given to the Bible [the writings of prophets and “holy men” of past ages], and the Lord has given a [present times] lesser light to lead men and women to the greater light [in context Ellen White’s thought is that Christ is that “greater light” pointed to in the too little-read and understood Bible, necessitating her updated “present truth” testimony]. O, how much good would be accomplished if the books containing this light were read with a determination to carry out the principles they contain! There would be a thousandfold greater vigilance, a thousandfold more self-denial and resolute effort. And many more would now be rejoicing in the light of present truth.” Review and Herald, 20 January 1903. Emphasis supplied.
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(I didn't mean to place the last half of my paragraph in bold, but, there you are. I couldn't seem to fix it.)
Notice how the words “lesser light” and “greater light” are used in Inspiration to compare the prophet John’s testimony with that of Christ’s. By the expression “greater light” reference is not primarily just to the Old Testament (the Bible of the times).
“The prophet John was the connecting link between the two dispensations. As God's representative he stood forth to show the relation of the law and the prophets to the Christian dispensation. He was the lesser light, which was to be followed by a greater. The mind of John was illuminated by the Holy Spirit, that he might shed light upon his people; but no other light ever has shone or ever will shine so clearly upon fallen man as that which emanated from the teaching and example of Jesus [the “greater light”]. Christ and His mission had been but dimly understood as typified in the shadowy sacrifices. Even John had not fully comprehended the future, immortal life through the Saviour.” Desire of Ages, p. 220.
“I am the Light of the world,” Jesus said in John 9:5.
Christ is “the Sun of righteousness.” Malachi 4:2.
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I think the clincher showing the relationship the church must bear to the “greater” and the “lesser” lights, is described in the prophetic allegory of Revelation 12. The sun is portrayed as the greater light; the moon, which reflects light from the sun, as the lesser light. Both lights are indispensable to the woman, who symbolizes the church. She is clothed with the sun, and stands on the moon. In this allegory, Jesus and His perfect righteousness are like the sun with which the woman is clothed; and the Bible—the word, the testimony of Christ through His prophets—is like the moon upon which the woman—the church—stands. As I see it, the sun and moon symbols in relation to the woman are explained at the end of Revelation 12.
“And the dragon was wrath with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God [this is like the woman and her seed clothed with the sun, the greater light], and have the testimony of Jesus Christ [this is like the woman and her seed standing on the moon, the lesser light].” Revelation 12:17.
“… I am thy fellowservant and of thy brethren the prophets that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy [the lesser light, as demonstrated in the lives and writings of all the true prophets down through the ages, including Ellen White].” Revelation 19:10.
I believe when considering the greater light, lesser light issue, the overall testimony of Inspiration and the Holy Spirit say it is fitting to place the above words of Revelation 19:10 into the mouth of Ellen White, whose witness is also prophesied at the end of Revelation 12.
A testimony via a prophet in the here and now is “lesser light” only in that it must be tested and proved by the already established authority of the testimony of the prophets of the past. Even in Bible times, any new person claiming to be a prophet or have light from God, had to have their witness and words judged by the writings of established prophets, right back to Moses. This is what was happening in Peter’s sermon on the Day of Pentecost, and Stephen’s sermon to the Sanhedrin in Acts 7. It was right and safe to reject new teachings only if they contradicted what God’s prophets had said in the past.
When it is understood that the sun symbolizes Christ and His righteousness, and the moon His witness and testimony through the prophets, how awesomely significant that associated with the 1260 years of papal supremacy and the final time of trouble for this world, the Bible prophesies that the sun will be literally darkened and the moon turned to blood! But though terribly persecuted and trodden down, the Revelation 12 woman, symbol of God’s remnant church, is assuredly not in His eyes dressed in “filthy rags.” Undeceived like the rest of the world, owned by Him, putting on His robe of perfect righteousness so that it becomes her own (see Revelation 19:8), in a telling sense she is still by His grace looking forth “as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners.” Solomon 6:10.
Any church claiming to be God’s remnant must be able to establish its teachings upon the writings of the prophets right back to Moses. Decade after decade, century after century, millennium after millennium, new light has added to (yes, like salt, it has enhanced) but never contradicted old light. In a recent series on 3ABN Pr Stephen Bohr has shown that the major teachings of Seventh-day Adventism can all be firmly established just from the writings of Moses. Is there another church anywhere on earth that could make such a claim?
Vitally important though the place of the Bible be in the life of the church, I feel it is an error and we lose much by saying Ellen White’s writings are the “lesser light” pointing to the Bible rather than to Christ as the “greater light.” I have read books of the Bible and by Ellen White many times over, and, like thousands of others, have sensed the presence of the same Holy Spirit in all these writings. For me, I am constrained and not ashamed to say that:-
the “lesser light” of Inspiration (the moon, upon which the Revelation 12 woman stands) is “the spirit of prophecy”—the witness and writings of prophets and holy men in the Bible, AND the witness and writings of Ellen White in more recent times.
the “greater light” of Inspiration (the sun, which clothes the woman of Revelation 12), is our Creator and wonderful Saviour, Christ Himself, and His unblemished righteousness, which He offers as a free gift to those who believe on Him.
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(Just to prove I can do short posts...)
“If their is an error today it is that SDA students are not required to read the entire conflict of the ages series.” Gailon Arthur Joy.
AMEN!
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There seems to be something special about a positive discussion of the Writings, although it cannot be compared with reading and studying. We have such convenient tools today. I find a delight in reading a section of the Bible until something really grips my attention. Then I copy that text on to a page in WORD. While writing I meditate and write down my thoughts and comparison with other texts this one reminds me of. Then I use the EGW search engine to find passages that gives greater enlightening on the theme of the text.
This for devotional study. Other methods can be used for doctrinal issues or prophetic interpretations.
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:welcome: to this forum, Brick! You probably stay awake when I am sleeping?
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Thanks for the welcome.
Among those who post it's good to see a handful from my timezone. But at least sometimes it seems all the action happens when it's sleep time for "down-unders" like us. But - obviously, given an extra hour or two, we can at least connect eventually.
It's Friday afternoon for us, so will say blessings, and
:sabbath:
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Thanks for the welcome.
Among those who post it's good to see a handful from my timezone. But at least sometimes it seems all the action happens when it's sleep time for "down-unders" like us. But - obviously, given an extra hour or two, we can at least connect eventually.
It's Friday afternoon for us, so will say blessings, and
:sabbath:
Yes. It's those blessed hours again here too. :sabbath:
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I am another from the Bottom Bunk - and very glad to see Sabbath here.
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I came to inherit a few books from my great grand mother's sister, which I kept close because of my love for her. Many years later in looking for truth, I began to actually read them. What surprised me the most was the sometimes small but highly significant differences between those books and the ones currently offered for sale. In discovering the "old paths" there seems to be much left to those willing to search diligently.
I counted it a great privilege that we used books by Ellen White as our English textbooks in school for three years. We missed some of the classic textbooks, but what did we miss? Later, at Emmanuel Missionary College, I was introduced to some of the Classic writers in our English classes. But then we were, at times in Bible classes expected to memorize whole paragraphs from her writings.
Are we sufficiently exposed to her writings - or too much - in our school systems today?
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I appreciate the writings of Ellen White. The first book I ever read of hers was "The Great Controversy". I was still a member of another denomination at the time I read it. I loved it. I've always enjoyed history and that book fit right in!
One thing I appreciate aside from the spiritual blessings is her sense of humor. I've never heard anyone mention it except for my son and daughters. We all get a kick out of it.
daylily
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Some time ago I posted a comment on BSDA about Ellen White's good sense of humor and nobody ever commented on it. And no one has commented here either. Doesn't anybody else see or appreciate her sense of humor? Or should a prophet not have one? :)
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When we visited Elmshaven back in 1966 the guide told us about the humor of Ellen White and gave us some samples.
M. L. Andreassen made a great discovery when he visited Ellen White in her home. He was surprised to get acquainted with a prophet who could laugh, but he got used to it while he was there.
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Jim Nix has some wonderful stories concerning EG White humor. Roger Coon as well, related some wonderful stories. She also liked to bake cookies for her grandchildren.
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I'm glad others see it too :) I'm thinking primarily of certain words and word pictures she used. We really love "word humor".
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M. L. Andreassen made a great discovery when he visited Ellen White in her home. He was surprised to get acquainted with a prophet who could laugh, but he got used to it while he was there.
I love that story from MLA. It's online at http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/andreasen/10.htm (http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/andreasen/10.htm); scroll down to p. 77.
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A very interesting story. Thanks for sharing:)
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We have recently been listening to the CD's of the set Pathways of the Pioneers. Ellen and James White were just an ordinary family being led by God and following His leading amid many hardships. It makes me sad to read the many criticisms of this family who did so much to support the beginnings of the SDA church. They loved the Lord and may those who are critical exam their own motives and ask if they are following the ways of Jesus.
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I finally opened the Fall 2010 issue of FOCUS where I find a reference to
Ellen G. White goes digital.
For online access, go to:
http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org
i haven't been there yet myself. Will anyone else do that and give comments?
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I was reading the posts from 2008 and saw names of posters that I don't see on this forum anymore. Brick, daylily, Sunburn, Tsatsui, etc. Are they discouraged by the discussion that goes on here, or am I just missing their contribution? :dogwag: