Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Artiste on June 26, 2008, 11:19:40 AM
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Garwin McNeilus has reportedly had a role in Seventh-day Adventist church missions for years.
His financial resources have made possible outreach efforts that might not have otherwise occurred. However, he has also reportedly been a friend and supporter of Danny Shelton for a significant period of time.
Johann included this statement in another thread, when referring to Linda's problems, "...those people who have slandered Linda Shelton through the past several years, partly using funds from that same person [Garwin McNeilus], according to information given me by Danny Shelton, to enhance the vicious slander..."
Some say that Garwin McNeilus now realizes the true character of Danny Shelton and no longer supports him.
Is this true?
I don't know. It would be understandable that a powerful and influential person such as McNeilus might want to protect his image the best way he could at this point.
Those who have suffered at the hands of 3ABN administrative personnel in the past might hope that McNeilus would also act to help mitigate some of their distress.
His power and influence, so well utilized in SDA church missions, could be used to restore to some degree what has been destroyed by 3ABN personnel in the past.
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Garwin McNeilus has reportedly had a role in Seventh-day Adventist church missions for years.
His financial resources have made possible outreach efforts that might not have otherwise occurred. However, he has also reportedly been a friend and supporter of Danny Shelton for a significant period of time.
Johann included this statement in another thread, when referring to Linda's problems, "...those people who have slandered Linda Shelton through the past several years, partly using funds from that same person [Garwin McNeilus], according to information given me by Danny Shelton, to enhance the vicious slander..."
Some say that Garwin McNeilus now realizes the true character of Danny Shelton and no longer supports him.
Is this true?
I don't know. It would be understandable that a powerful and influential person such as McNeilus might want to protect his image the best way he could at this point.
Those who have suffered at the hands of 3ABN administrative personnel in the past might hope that McNeilus would also act to help mitigate some of their distress.
His power and influence, so well utilized in SDA church missions, could be used to restore to some degree what has been destroyed by 3ABN personnel in the past.
So, you don't think much of Garwin McNeilus, or 3ABN? (I hope you weren't intending to do the very thing here that you were finding fault with others for and accusing them of... slandering...)
Have you tried talking to GM one on one, privately, or told him what you heard etc and gave him a chance to answer or explain? or maybe even Danny Shelton, Jim Gilley or Dr Walt Thompson? I always think that should be done, before talking to anyone else, or saying things about those involved to others.
What's your thinking about this?
..ian
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So, you don't think much of Garwin McNeilus, or 3ABN? (I hope you weren't intending to do the very thing here that you were finding fault with others for and accusing them of... slandering...)
Have you tried talking to GM one on one, privately, or told him what you heard etc and gave him a chance to answer or explain? or maybe even Danny Shelton, Jim Gilley or Dr Walt Thompson? I always think that should be done, before talking to anyone else, or saying things about those involved to others.
What's your thinking about this?
..ian
My thoughts are that now you are back from an extended holiday, you are just causing trouble again, as usual.
:oops:
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Some say that Garwin McNeilus now realizes the true character of Danny Shelton and no longer supports him.
Or does Garwin McNeilus think, like Jim Gilley does, that Danny Shelton is an honorable man who always tells the truth?
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Artiste, I am of the same opinion as you...
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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So, you don't think much of Garwin McNeilus, or 3ABN?
You conclude that from Artiste's post? Would you care to explain how?
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Ummm, Ian, you might want to rethink your response to Artiste. She was acutally being very charitable to Garwin. She didn't slander him and speak ill of him at all.
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Methinks Ian should take a walk and cool off :hamster: :puppykisses: before posting replys she doesn't agree with.
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"ian,"
In the first century of our era a few men and women evangelized the civilized world of their time. Did they do it with the RADIO? Did they do it with the TV? No, they just went from place to place and preached the GOOD NEWS, as Jesus told them to do! They did not need mass media or multimedia to fulfill the Great Comission, and neither do we!
I watch TV once in a blue moon, and I don't care about it. Someone in my family, though, receives signal from 3ABN, and every time I watched their programs I was disappointed. Such a waste of time! I can get in an hour two times as much Bible study and doctrine than I get in one whole day on 3ABN! And if I want music I used one of the many CDs that contain really good quality traditional and contemporary gospel music. I don't need to watch hours and hours of fluff and show, to admire and envy people dressed in expensive clothes walk on stilts around the stage and pretend to be spiritual! The role of the TV stations, whatever they may be, is nothing more than to entertain their audience, and this is what the TELEVANGELISTS do at 3ABN and everywhere else.
George Vandeman was a charming and amazing speaker on the screen, but how many know the struggles he had in his family while he was pretenting that everything was just PINK? I am tired of all this HYPOCRISY clad in fake and arrogant religious clothes! Men and women whose lives are in the tank and who are brokenhearted must play the role of saints to amuse people who have nothing better to do than to spend most of their time in front of the magic box!
Wikipedia has a very instructive article on TELEVANGELISM and its problems. All of us need to learn from its historical background and understand that such TV shows are doing much less good than it is claimed. On the contrary, a lot of sincere people have been driven away from God because of the disappointments they have had with the fake "men of God" who were after power and money. We will find out soon how much of the "Christian work" at 3ABN has been inspired by motives that have nothing with Christianity and Jesus.
Here are some EYE OPENERS for those who think that all is well on the "CHRISTIAN SHOWS:"
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CONTROVERSIES
Televangelists are the subject of considerable controversy. Both their methods and theology have received widespread criticism from both church and secular sources. Many televangelists are featured on discernment websites run by Christians that are concerned about what they see as departures from sound Christian faith. The following are amongst the issues that have been raised:
Lack of accountability. Many televangelists exist outside of established churches. They have little or no oversight from denominational structures and many are accountable to no-one. In cases where their ministry is run by a board of directors, this is frequently made up of family members and other people who will not challenge the televangelist. Other televangelists, however, are members of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, an independent organisation which promotes high financial standards amongst Christian ministries.
Supernatural theology. Many televangelists hold charismatic or Pentecostal viewpoints, believing in spiritual gifts, divine healing, and other miracles. These subjects remain controversial within Christian thinking. In some instances, claims of miracles have been shown to be fraudulent.
Flamboyant lifestyles. Some televangelists have accumulated significant personal wealth from their ministries and own large properties, luxury cars, and even private jets. This is seen by critics to be contradictory to Christian principles. There is also frequent confusion between personal and ministry assets.
Financial emphasis. Televangelism requires substantial amounts of money to produce programs and purchase airtime on cable and satellite networks. Televangelists devote much time to fundraising activities. Products such as books, CDs, DVDs, and trinkets with supposedly miraculous powers, are aggressively promoted to viewers. Opponents regard such an emphasis as inappropriate and also question whether the money would be better used relieving poverty or employing traditional missionaries.
Personality cult. Traditional Christian teaching emphasises the following of Jesus and not a particular preacher, however televangelism tends to build a personality cult around the televangelist.
Health and wealth teaching. Many televangelists preach a prosperity gospel that promises material success to believers, subject to their generous donations to the “work of God”, which inevitably means the televangelist. This is regarded as a serious heresy by other Christians.
False prophecies. Numerous televangelists have issued false prophecies, for example Benny Hinn’s claim that Fidel Castro would die in the 1990s, or Pat Robertson's claim that the War in Iraq would end in 2006. Other televangelists have made false prophecies of the Second Coming.
False teaching. Televangelists frequently depart from or add to traditional Christian doctrines.
Entertainment focus. The style of televangelism seems to mirror that of the secular entertainment industry, with emphasis on celebrity, slick production, and aggressive marketing.
Disputed success. Televangelists claim to be reaching millions of people worldwide with the gospel and producing numerous converts to Christianity. However, such claims are difficult to verify independently. It has also been questioned whether non-believers actually watch Christian television.
Televangelists often strongly dispute these criticisms and say they are doing God's work. They cite declining attendance at traditional church services and the growth of global mass media as factors necessitating the use of television to fulfill the "Great Commission" in the 21st century.
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I see in “God’s Work” done at 3ABN the same:
1. Lack of accountability
2. Supernatural theology
3. Flamboyant lifestyles
4. Financial emphasis
5. PERSONALITY CULT
6. Health and wealth teaching.
7. False prophecies
8. False teachings
9. Entertainment focus
10. Disputed success
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How about the extraordinary SCANDALS that have involved the TELEVANGELIST from the beginning of these TV shows? Here is something else we need to look at:
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CHRISTIAN TELEVANGELIST SCANDALS
Numerous televangelists have been at the center of well-publicised scandals, including financial, sexual, and religious.
Many televangelists promote the doctrine of divine healing and would claim that God can heal people through them. Christian views on this subject vary, and it is seen as pseudoscience and charlatanry by non-Christians. A number of claims of healing miracles made by televangelists have been exposed as fraud, for example in the case of Peter Popoff.
A series of scandals in the 1980s resulted in the fall from grace of some famous televangelists, such as Jim Bakker, who served a prison sentence for financial improprieties associated with his ministry, and Jimmy Swaggart, who made a famous tearful confession to a dalliance with a prostitute. They have continued preaching, nonetheless, even though their audiences may be a small fraction of what they were at the height of their popularity.
Controversial claims have also been made by some, as when Oral Roberts told his television audience in 1987 that he had to raise $8 million in donations or "God would call him home". He ended up raising $9.1 million.[9]. Shortly after the September 11 terrorist attacks, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell said that it was divine retribution provoked by rampant sexual immorality. In 2005, Robertson announced on The 700 Club that Venezuelan president Hugo Chávez ought to be "taken out" by the US government. Many viewed this as a call for assassination. Later that year, in November, Robertson warned the town of Dover, Pennsylvania of a severe natural disaster following the defeat of the local school board for advocating intelligent design.
Brazil is also a country in which televangelists have found success, and some have faced accusations of improprieties. In 1992, Edir Macedo, a Brazilian televangelist and founder of the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God was imprisoned for accusations of charlatanism, and spent some days in prison. More recently, in 2002, the Época magazine, controlled by Globo media group published two new articles making accusations at Igreja Renascer em Cristo. In 2006, Brazilian Justice blocked all goods of the Hernandes couple, leaders of the church because of accusations of money laundering, fraud and identity theft.
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IMHO, Danny Shelton is going to be soon another embarrasing addition to the HALL OF SHAME of the once fallen and never recovered TELEVANGELISTS. I am looking forward to the day when,
"The pride of man will be humbled, and the loftiness of men will be abased; And the LORD alone will be exalted in that day" (Isaiah 2:17).
Eduard
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Have you tried talking to GM one on one, privately, or told him what you heard etc and gave him a chance to answer or explain? or maybe even Danny Shelton, Jim Gilley or Dr Walt Thompson? I always think that should be done, before talking to anyone else, or saying things about those involved to others.
What's your thinking about this?
..ian
Walt Thompson? Are you serious? The same Walt Thompson who never talked to any of Tommy Shelton's accusers? Is that the Walt Thompson you mean?
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It is wonderful when BY FAITH men and women who are not perfect, as no one on this planet is perfect except the Lord Jesus Christ, and by faith, help them to start and run a huge operation like 3ABN!! All are human. All make mistakes. But BY FAITH they are able to WIN SOULS to the Lord Jesus Christ through 3ABN world-wide.
PRAISE THE LORD for His goodness to the children of men. May the 3-angels messages go forward!!
God loves those souls who have been won through 3ABN programming, as well as through all the other SDA ministries He has blessed.
God has used many down through the ages beginning with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joseph, Jacob, David, Paul, 12-diciples, Mary, Esther, Ellen G. White, SDA Conference Presidents, Preachers and those who run media ministries, teachers, lawyers, doctors and nurses, EVERYONE who has a part in giving the truth to hungry souls.
May God continue to bless 3ABN abundantly.
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God loves those souls who have been won through 3ABN programming.
May God continue to bless 3ABN abundantly.
My problem is not with 3ABN per se but with Danny Swagg... er.. Shelton; in particular, with the ungodly manner he treated Johann and the doctor at that camp meeting. And that behavior arose from his iniquitous cannot be proven charges that his 3ABN co-founder wife committed airy-fairy, er.. spiritual :ROFL: adultery with said doctor.
And, of course, there all those other what appears to be credible, IMHO, reports of malfeasance at the network!
There is a great need for cleaning 'the Stables of Augeas' at 3ABN. That's what this is all about. (http://WWW.Save 3ABN.Com[/url)
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And, of course, there all those other what appears to be credible, IMHO, reports of malfeasance at the network! [url=http://WWW.Save 3ABN.Com (http://[url=http://WWW.Save 3ABN.Com)[/url]
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God loves those souls who have been won through 3ABN programming.
May God continue to bless 3ABN abundantly.
My problem is not with 3ABN per se but with Danny Swagg... er.. Shelton; in particular, with the ungodly manner he treated Johann and the doctor at that camp meeting. And that behavior arose from his iniquitous cannot be proven charges that his 3ABN co-founder wife committed airy-fairy, er.. spiritual :ROFL: adultery with said doctor.
And, of course, there all those other what appears to be credible, IMHO, reports of malfeasance at the network!
There is a great need for cleaning 'the Stables of Augeas' at 3ABN. That's what this is all about.
(http://WWW.Save 3ABN.Com[/url)
Your very unchristian post sounds familiar.....anyway....do you know Mr. Shelton? If not you are going on heresay and gossip. According to the word that is sin. If you do know him ,have you practiced "if you have ought with your brother"? If not, it is sin.
Do you know Linda Shelton? If yes, can you prove she was not guilty of said affair? If you don't know her then you have nada to base any of your comments on and are making rash judgements all around. Very wrong. Here are the facts. Sin is sin and all sin leads to loss of eternal life. So all of your judgements, unchristian words, and participation in gossip and character assassination is just as great a sin as those supposedly committed by those that you accuse. There is one difference though. You do not know or cannot prove that Mr. Shelton has done any of the things that you accuse him of and if you are wrong, he stands, just another imperfect human being, striving for the kingdom. But, where you are concerned, it matters not whether he is guilty or innocent, your actions of judging others, participating in gossip, bringing supposed problems within the church to the public, wishing harm on others and not practicing matt 18 are sin, no matter what.
Summery? The odds of making it to the kingdom for you and your friends are far less IMO than for Danny, Walt, or any of the rest. Even though no one is perfect and in hindsight we could all improve decisions, I don't believe that Danny, Walt, Garwin or any of the rest of those men have done anything intentionaly wrong. You, on the other hand are knowingly and willingly participating in gossip, heresay and rumors. That is intentional. That is sin.
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I'm getting rather tired of the old "Do you know DS, Have you ever met him" stuff. I have never met OJ Simpson but I have not a single doubt that he killed his wife and Ron Goldman. And no, I wasn't there and didn't see it with my own eyes.
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Your very unchristian post sounds familiar.....anyway....do you know Mr. Shelton? If not you are going on heresay and gossip. According to the word that is sin. If you do know him ,have you practiced "if you have ought with your brother"? If not, it is sin.
Do you know Linda Shelton? If yes, can you prove she was not guilty of said affair? If you don't know her then you have nada to base any of your comments on and are making rash judgements all around. Very wrong. Here are the facts. Sin is sin and all sin leads to loss of eternal life. So all of your judgements, unchristian words, and participation in gossip and character assassination is just as great a sin as those supposedly committed by those that you accuse. There is one difference though. You do not know or cannot prove that Mr. Shelton has done any of the things that you accuse him of and if you are wrong, he stands, just another imperfect human being, striving for the kingdom. But, where you are concerned, it matters not whether he is guilty or innocent, your actions of judging others, participating in gossip, bringing supposed problems within the church to the public, wishing harm on others and not practicing matt 18 are sin, no matter what.
Summery? The odds of making it to the kingdom for you and your friends are far less IMO than for Danny, Walt, or any of the rest. Even though no one is perfect and in hindsight we could all improve decisions, I don't believe that Danny, Walt, Garwin or any of the rest of those men have done anything intentionaly wrong. You, on the other hand are knowingly and willingly participating in gossip, heresay and rumors. That is intentional. That is sin.
And your "very unchristian" post sounds familiar. Do you know Danny Shelton? If so can you prove that he is not guilty of any of whatever it is he has been accused of?
So now you are the arbiter of what comprises christianity? Do you know Fairhavens? Have you spoken with her? Were you practicing the Matt 18 thing that you attacked her with when you made the following statement of fact about her? "You, on the other hand are knowingly and willingly participating in gossip, heresay and rumors. That is intentional. That is sin." Have you spoken with her as you insist other must do? Are you holding others to a standard that you refuse to adhere to yourself? If you are going to demand a certain standard of others, you need to follow it yourself.
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Round and round the mulberry bush....... :hamster:
Has anyone on this board absolute proof that Linda is guilty of adultery? It is usually easier to prove a positive than a negative.
I have no personal knowledge of 3ABN or its people, everything I know has been gleaned from this and other boards. I try to keep an open mind, but it has seemed for a long time that the 'we have proof of the adultery but we are not showing you' line is wearing rather thin. After all that accusation was the start of the upheaval wasn't it, even if things have gone off in various other directions since.
As I said, I have no personal stake in any of this - that is just the way it seems to some one from the outside looking in.
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And Danny hisself even admitted he didn't have any proof... also check the divorce. No accusasions of adultry included. Still waiting for that "proof that is soon to come".
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And your "very unchristian" post sounds familiar. Do you know Danny Shelton? If so can you prove that he is not guilty of any of whatever it is he has been accused of?
So now you are the arbiter of what comprises christianity? Do you know Fairhavens? Have you spoken with her? Were you practicing the Matt 18 thing that you attacked her with when you made the following statement of fact about her? "You, on the other hand are knowingly and willingly participating in gossip, heresay and rumors. That is intentional. That is sin." Have you spoken with her as you insist other must do? Are you holding others to a standard that you refuse to adhere to yourself? If you are going to demand a certain standard of others, you need to follow it yourself.
I feel left out. How come nobody ever asks me if I know Danny or Linda?
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As I would hate you to remain feeling left out, Duane: "Do you know either Danny or Linda Shelton?" ;D
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As I would hate you to remain feeling left out, Duane: "Do you know either Danny or Linda Shelton?" ;D
Well, I know no-one asked, but, YUP, got to comminicate extensively with both Danny and Linda.
Danny repeatedly came up a bit short, or we have referred to it as factually challenged. Not just once or twice, but repeatedly. And most particularly, he did not produce documents, recordings, phone records or produce collaterall statements that really supported his badly damaged credibility.
Linda came up "Blonde", but backed up her statement with collateral statements, e-mail or documents. Not sure she always understood the import of the documents rendered, but they were "fatal" to Danny's perpetual misrepresentation of time, place and persons. In fact, she was sitting on a treasure trove of documentation that repeatedly exonerated her and clearly challenged the veracity of Danny Lee Shelton. In fact, it is safe to declare that he was so far all over the field on some issues, he had contradictatory statements on the same issue... repeatedly!!!
I wish it had only been the divorce, but it quickly moved to financial issues and the entire can of worms fell right on the floor at our feet...we could not ignore it!!!
Also worth noting that once we began to question the veracity of clear contradictions, the door was closed by Danny. We never closed that door.
Danny closed the door and arrogantly declared we were "nobodies"...so SAM,
is it sin to shut the door and refuse to address the clear sins in the camp???
Is it a sin to divorce ones wife without any proof of adultery when she denies it?
Is it a sin to pretend that your only means of support are from a modest salary when you are not disclosing large sums of collateral income from the same source for years?
Is it a sin to refuse to mediate the differences via an ecclesiastical forum?
Is it a sin to sue ones brother in a civil court?
We simply could not ignore and you should not!!!
Neither will a jury!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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"sam,"
I guess the only posts you are reading are your own. So, let me repeat myself and repost a comment I have made a little while ago about your "pet topic," Matthew 18, and which APPLIES DIRECTLY TO YOU, TOO:
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"Junebug,"
Are you trained in Biblical Interpretation? Can you read the Bible in its original languages (Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic)? Are you an expert in Linguistics? I guess the answer to my questions would be: "None of the above!" All you know about the Bible is what your parents read to you for the Bedtime Story time.
Let me give you a mini lesson in PLAIN BIBLICAL READING: Matthew 18 deals with ONE-TO-ONE ISSUES between members of the church. Let me quote:
"If another member of the church SINS AGAINST YOU, go and point out the fault WHEN THE TWO OF YOU ARE ALONE" (Mt 18:15, NIV).
The case is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT when matters are PUBLIC. Such matters must be dealt with PUBLICLY. Paul (unlike you) knew this matter, and when he caught Peter acting hypocritically in Antioch he DENOUNCED PETER IN PUBLIC. Let me quote:
"But when I saw that they were not acting consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas BEFORE THEM ALL (!!!!!), "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile, and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?" (Galatians 2:11-14, NIV).
PUBLIC MATTERS MUST BE DEALT WITH PUBLICLY. So, you are wrong when you state:
"Have you gone to him to ask him if this published story was true or not? That is what Matthew 18 teaches Johann. Until an effort is done to find out the particulars behind this, you have no business making this public."
You assumption that "The magazine had a reason for withdrawing the article, probably because they were wrong in what they published" is just a speculation. Garwin McNeilus could have simply bought the story from the magazine or threatened the magazine with his lawyers, in order to make them shut up. IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME IN THIS COUNTRY. What happened years ago is relevant today because the boy is the father of the man.
Garwin McNeilus' dark dealings were made PUBLIC. Matthews 18 has nothing to do with it. YouR suggestion that Johann go and talk to Garwin about that PUBLIC MATTER only shows your ignorance in Biblical matters.
GOT IT?
Eduard
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All your posts are written in the "DADA" style. I don't expect you to know what this means, but let me ask you: What papers are you using to get cuts from and pull them from a hat in order to "construct" your "messages"? Believe me, it is hard for me to find anywhere, in any text, more nonsense than you pack in your "messages." What a terrible pity that I cannot do a little text analysis of your posts. I got already two warnings from the moderators when I expressed my PROFESSIONAL opinions about the level of your mates' writing skills, so I will refrain from saying anything about yours.
Do me a favor, though: Please, ask someone who knows English to write your posts!
Eduard
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As I would hate you to remain feeling left out, Duane: "Do you know either Danny or Linda Shelton?" ;D
Why, yes! Yes I do. Both of them actually. Thank you for asking. I feel so much better now. ;D
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As I would hate you to remain feeling left out, Duane: "Do you know either Danny or Linda Shelton?" ;D
Why, yes! Yes I do. Both of them actually. Thank you for asking. I feel so much better now. ;D
For clarity, I noticed you said it in the present sense.
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I don't read here regularly, but just noticed a post that was critical of George Vandeman.
I happen to have known the Vandemans and have been in their home and they have visited mine in past years.
Pastor Vandeman was a very dedicated, kind, Christian gentleman who loved the Lord and people.
Most folk that have several children do experience some problems. Look at Adam and Eve. I do know that some of the problems were beyond the control of George and Nellie. neither were some of the problems caused by them.
Pastor Vandeman deserves our respect. I fully expect to see him in heaven, if I make it there, with a crown heavy with stars.
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I don't read here regularly, but just noticed a post that was critical of George Vandeman.
I happen to have known the Vandemans and have been in their home and they have visited mine in past years.
Pastor Vandeman was a very dedicated, kind, Christian gentleman who loved the Lord and people.
Most folk that have several children do experience some problems. Look at Adam and Eve. I do know that some of the problems were beyond the control of George and Nellie. neither were some of the problems caused by them.
Pastor Vandeman deserves our respect. I fully expect to see him in heaven, if I make it there, with a crown heavy with stars.
Interesting. A close relative of mine (now deceased) was Elder Vandeman's mentor many, many years ago.
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I don't read here regularly, but just noticed a post that was critical of George Vandeman.
I happen to have known the Vandemans and have been in their home and they have visited mine in past years.
Pastor Vandeman was a very dedicated, kind, Christian gentleman who loved the Lord and people.
Most folk that have several children do experience some problems. Look at Adam and Eve. I do know that some of the problems were beyond the control of George and Nellie. neither were some of the problems caused by them.
Pastor Vandeman deserves our respect. I fully expect to see him in heaven, if I make it there, with a crown heavy with stars.
Interesting. A close relative of mine (now deceased) was Elder Vandeman's mentor many, many years ago.
While employed at 3ABN, I had the privilege of meeting George Vandeman, Joe Crews and Marshall Grosboll, all of whom have since passed on. I had more interaction with Pastor Grosboll since he actually taped in our studio, but I had the utmost respect for all three of these gentlemen.
edited to correct formatting
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I never met Vandeman, but I did meet Marshall Grossboll ( not like his brother John at all) and Joe Crews. The Lord took these men to their rest WAY TOO EARLY for the sake of the church. They had standards and purpose and could not be shaken from their committment.
Ron Spear was visiting our home the day Joe Crews died on the operating tabel and he literally cried like a baby. He just could not believe that such a centerpiece of historic SDA beliefs could be gone so quickly and without warning. He stated that it was a great blow to the SDA standard bearers and by and large he was correct.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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I never met Vandeman, but I did meet Marshall Grossboll ( not like his brother John at all) and Joe Crews. The Lord took these men to their rest WAY TOO EARLY for the sake of the church. They had standards and purpose and could not be shaken from their commitment.
Ron Spear was visiting our home the day Joe Crews died on the operating table and he literally cried like a baby. He just could not believe that such a centerpiece of historic SDA beliefs could be gone so quickly and without warning. He stated that it was a great blow to the SDA standard bearers and by and large he was correct.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I also cried when I heard Joe Crews died! He pastored at the church of my childhood. I went to school with his children, Larry, Dennis and Ronnie. Ronnie developed a tumor and died. The following Sabbath he preached a sermon to comfort us. He preached about the joy of heaven when we would all be reunited. All of his family was on the front pew, just as always. He died way too soon. Joe Crews and Bob May put together the 1st Amazing Facts Bible Studies. They told it like it was!
I still miss him and his family.
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I knew George Vandeman, and also his and Nelly's daughter Connie. A talented family, and one with a lot of humor!
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I never met Vandeman, but I did meet Marshall Grossboll ( not like his brother John at all) and Joe Crews. The Lord took these men to their rest WAY TOO EARLY for the sake of the church. They had standards and purpose and could not be shaken from their committment.
Ron Spear was visiting our home the day Joe Crews died on the operating tabel and he literally cried like a baby. He just could not believe that such a centerpiece of historic SDA beliefs could be gone so quickly and without warning. He stated that it was a great blow to the SDA standard bearers and by and large he was correct.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Umm-mm, Mr Joy, do you think God is up there saying "Bummer, I really blew it that time--I should've waited awhile. Look at all the bad stuff that has happened as a result--I sure didn't see that coming!" ? What happened to "God's purposes know no haste and no delay"?
We could talk about whether "God took them" or whether they were casualties of the sinful world we live in, where God gives us choice and also allows choices we make to run their course, in which case maybe their work was cut short, but to use those two phrases (God took them, and way too early) in the same sentence is a little strange to me. Unless you believe that God makes mistakes...
My cents worth...
scratsmom
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Funny, how we all have differing perspectives on life. I have told folk repeatedly how good God was to preserve the life of Joe Crews as long as He did.
I have a special son who greatly admired Elder Crews. He was baptized very young after attending a series of his meetings. Crews was his hero and he hitched his wagon to a star and aspired to be an evangelist too.
Someone told Elder Crews how much my son thought of him. So one day out of the blue, my son was startled at the age of 13 to get a phone call from his beloved hero. Crews told him that when he was older he could come and work with him doing evangelism.
What a blessing that he did not pass away until my son was established in the faith and studying theology in college.
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Our initial reactions to what we see as tragedies, will often be along the lines of "Why did God let this happen?"
Perhaps later comes the realisation that we have to trust that He knows the future, and knows what will be best for both the individual and the church. I keep reminding myself that after all his loss, Job got no explanation of what had happened, just the reassurance that God was still there. Can we expect more than that?
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I never met Vandeman, but I did meet Marshall Grossboll ( not like his brother John at all) and Joe Crews. The Lord took these men to their rest WAY TOO EARLY for the sake of the church. They had standards and purpose and could not be shaken from their commitment.
Ron Spear was visiting our home the day Joe Crews died on the operating table and he literally cried like a baby. He just could not believe that such a centerpiece of historic SDA beliefs could be gone so quickly and without warning. He stated that it was a great blow to the SDA standard bearers and by and large he was correct.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I also cried when I heard Joe Crews died! He pastored at the church of my childhood. I went to school with his children, Larry, Dennis and Ronnie. Ronnie developed a tumor and died. The following Sabbath he preached a sermon to comfort us. He preached about the joy of heaven when we would all be reunited. All of his family was on the front pew, just as always. He died way too soon. Joe Crews and Bob May put together the 1st Amazing Facts Bible Studies. They told it like it was!
I still miss him and his family.
The church and its standard bearers REALLY miss Elder crews. Without him Laodicea is a live and well!!.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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The church and its standard bearers REALLY miss Elder crews. Without him Laodicea is a live and well!!.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I also felt that God took my mother way too early, along with her cousin who died 6 months prior. The church they attended, and that I attended as I was growing up, changed dramatically after they both passed away. I have since come to believe that it is quite possible that God removed them both because He knew thay would not want to see what was going to happen to the church they both loved. My mom gave her life for our Christian school and it has suffered greatly as well.
Perhaps God removes people sometimes so they don't have to witness the "removal of the candlestick."
Just a thought.
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And then there is:
"A neglect to appreciate and improve the provisions of divine grace has deprived the church of many a blessing. How often would the Lord have prolonged the work of some faithful minister, had his labors been appreciated! But if the church permits the enemy of souls to pervert the understanding, so that they misrepresent and misinterpret the words and acts of the servant of Christ; if they allow themselves to stand in his way and hinder his usefulness, the Lord sometimes removes from them the blessing which He gave.
"Satan is constantly working through his agents to dishearten and destroy those whom God has chosen to accomplish a great and good work. They may be ready to sacrifice even life itself for the advancement of the cause of Christ, yet the great deceiver will suggest to their brethren doubts concerning them which, if entertained, would undermine confidence in their integrity of character, and thus cripple their usefulness. Too often he succeeds in bringing upon them, through their own brethren, such sorrow of heart that God graciously interposes to give His persecuted servants rest. After the hands are folded upon the pulseless breast, when the voice of warning and encouragement is silent, then the obdurate may be aroused to see and prize the blessings they have cast from them. Their death may accomplish that which their life has failed to do" (AA 417, 418).
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Wow, great insight!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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The church and its standard bearers REALLY miss Elder crews. Without him Laodicea is a live and well!!.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I also felt that God took my mother way too early, along with her cousin who died 6 months prior. The church they attended, and that I attended as I was growing up, changed dramatically after they both passed away. I have since come to believe that it is quite possible that God removed them both because He knew thay would not want to see what was going to happen to the church they both loved. My mom gave her life for our Christian school and it has suffered greatly as well.
Perhaps God removes people sometimes so they don't have to witness the "removal of the candlestick."
Just a thought.
We need to heed such warnings.
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I have a couple of friends(sister-in-laws) who had known George Vandeman and visited together many times. They both regard him with the highest regard and honor. They miss him terribly.
I personally didn't know George Vandeman. I only remember watching him on television many years ago before 3ABN and HOPE channels were in existence. He seemed like a very soft spoken gentle personable man. And he had his own style of preaching that many people related to and were gently brought to love Jesus as their savior.
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I have a couple of friends(sister-in-laws) who had known George Vandeman and visited together many times. They both regard him with the highest regard and honor. They miss him terribly.
I personally didn't know George Vandeman. I only remember watching him on television many years ago before 3ABN and HOPE channels were in existence. He seemed like a very soft spoken gentle personable man. And he had his own style of preaching that many people related to and were gently brought to love Jesus as their savior.
Neither did I meet George Vandeman personally but I heard him preach a number of times, including a reaping campaign in Washington DC around 1957 or 1958. He spoke to the heart of many people and I was greatly impressed with his personality.
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Well, I did meet him personally at an It Is Written Seminar and he seemed like a nice and gentle person.
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Just wanted to add a little tidbit.
I also never heard George Vandeman repeatedly discuss how many years he had been in the ministry (never heard any other preacher for that matter) nor how well his ministry is doing and discussing the name of his program repeatedly ad nauseum. Neither did he discard his wife of many years for a younger filley.
(Just my twist of the truth and rumormongering)
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Just wanted to add a little tidbit.
I also never heard George Vandeman repeatedly discuss how many years he had been in the ministry (never heard any other preacher for that matter) nor how well his ministry is doing and discussing the name of his program repeatedly ad nauseum. Neither did he discard his wife of many years for a younger filley.
(Just my twist of the truth and rumormongering)
did you think DS was a twin to GVanderman? Of course not. He is his own person and his own personality. This is first grade stuff "guide4him" come on---did you expect DS to be a clone?
For the record for those who are lurking and who may not know, Danny Shelton did NOT "discard" his wife. SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN. Just to make sure the truth is understood here. This is no "twist of the truth" either--it is the REAL TRUTH.
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Johann,
Like I said before. No one will believe what you say because they will twist and turn the truth to make it a lie.
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I am anxiously waiting to see the proof of the "REAL TRUTH".
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Just wanted to add a little tidbit.
I also never heard George Vandeman repeatedly discuss how many years he had been in the ministry (never heard any other preacher for that matter) nor how well his ministry is doing and discussing the name of his program repeatedly ad nauseum. Neither did he discard his wife of many years for a younger filley.
(Just my twist of the truth and rumormongering)
did you think DS was a twin to GVanderman? Of course not. He is his own person and his own personality. This is first grade stuff "guide4him" come on---did you expect DS to be a clone?
For the record for those who are lurking and who may not know, Danny Shelton did NOT "discard" his wife. SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN. Just to make sure the truth is understood here. This is no "twist of the truth" either--it is the REAL TRUTH.
Junebug, that is an out and out lie. Linda did not leave Danny for another man. Linda loved her husband and was faithful to him. Unfortunately, the same could not be said of Danny. Did Linda have Biblical grounds to divorce Danny? Yes. Did she know it at the time. No. It appears that you conform to the Danny Shelton concept of the "REAL TRUTH": continue telling a lie long enough and you hope to fool many people into believing it is true.
Where is your proof, Junebug? Is it just because Danny says so?
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"SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN"
If she left him for another man, where is he?
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Junebug,
I am really surprised by your post, however, if you can provide proof that LS is lying and DS is telling the truth, then you could end all this by producing it. Until the proof is produced, if it even exists, which I doubt, I shall go with what I feel in my heart is the truth in that LS didn't leave DS for another man.
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Just wanted to add a little tidbit.
I also never heard George Vandeman repeatedly discuss how many years he had been in the ministry (never heard any other preacher for that matter) nor how well his ministry is doing and discussing the name of his program repeatedly ad nauseum. Neither did he discard his wife of many years for a younger filley.
(Just my twist of the truth and rumormongering)
did you think DS was a twin to GVanderman? Of course not. He is his own person and his own personality. This is first grade stuff "guide4him" come on---did you expect DS to be a clone?
For the record for those who are lurking and who may not know, Danny Shelton did NOT "discard" his wife. SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN. Just to make sure the truth is understood here. This is no "twist of the truth" either--it is the REAL TRUTH.
You are absolutely right, DANNY LEE SHELTON IS NO VANDERMAN!!!
Then again, you are absolutely wrong, Linda did not LEAVE DANNY and the evidence clearly demonstrates that he did "DISCARD" his wife of 23 years and he did end up with a young new filly. That is what the evidence demonstrates and YOU cannot point to any evidence produced to refute that eternal truth!!!
But, then again, I would just LOVE IT if you would!!! What a headline for the ENQUIRER!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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"For the record for those who are lurking and who may not know, Danny Shelton did NOT "discard" his wife. SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN. Just to make sure the truth is understood here. This is no "twist of the truth" either--it is the REAL TRUTH."
Who left who? The indication as to who left who may be found in who filed for the divorce. Did Linda file? Did Danny file? The person who filed says a lot as to who left who.
NOTE: It was not Linda who filed for the divorce.
Let us say for the purpose of the arguement that Linda Shelton had committed adultery.
NOTE: I do not believe that she did such. But, for the purpose of the arguement let us say that she had done so.
If Linda Shelton had committed adultery that would have been sin. It would have been the sin of adultery. But, it would not have been "leaving her husband [Danny Shelton] for another man" unless she then filed for the divorce.
Folks, married people do commit adultery. More often than not, those who commit adultery do not leave their marital spouse. Rather they return to the marriage and attempts are made by both people to save the marriage. If the marriage cannot be saved, one of the parties will likely file for a divorce. It is that party that left the marriage and the other spouse. One might argue that the leaving party was justifed in doing so. Regardless, it is that party that left their spouse.
Linda Shelton did not leave Danny for another man regardless of whether or not she committed adultery. I do not beleive that she committed adultery.
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It is my understanding that if one spouse of their own free will moves out and gets another residence then they are the one who left.
Linda purchased a trailer in Carbondale before the divorce was filed in June of 2004.
Johann wrote how he and the Doctor went and looked at it in May of 2004.
Something here does not add up.
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Junebug,
I am really surprised by your post, however, if you can provide proof that LS is lying and DS is telling the truth, then you could end all this by producing it. Until the proof is produced, if it even exists, which I doubt, I shall go with what I feel in my heart is the truth in that LS didn\'t leave DS for another man.
It would probably be fair to post this same thing to Sister as she is claiming Danny had affairS while he and Linda were married. I have seen no proof of that either. Have you?
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"It is my understanding that if one spouse of their own free will moves out and gets another residence then they are the one who left.
Linda purchased a trailer in Carbondale before the divorce was filed in June of 2004.
Johann wrote how he and the Doctor went and looked at it in May of 2004.
Something here does not add up."
In some States that is the law under the divorce statutes, and when that happens that fact, subject to rebuttal, may be used to say that the one spouse abandoned the other.
My position, and perhaps not well stated that the the person who abandons the marriage is the one who files for divorce.
There are many situations in which a couple will decide to live seperately but to remain married. In such situations it is not appropriate to say that the one person has either abandoned the marriage or has left for another man/woman.
To illustrate further: In many States a divorce proceeding begins with a legal decree that seperates the couple but does not end the marriage. Later, after a stated period of time, the marriage will only end if one of the parties files an additional action to end the marriage.
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"For the record for those who are lurking and who may not know, Danny Shelton did NOT "discard" his wife. SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN. Just to make sure the truth is understood here. This is no "twist of the truth" either--it is the REAL TRUTH."
Who left who? The indication as to who left who may be found in who filed for the divorce. Did Linda file? Did Danny file? The person who filed says a lot as to who left who.
NOTE: It was not Linda who filed for the divorce.
Let us say for the purpose of the arguement that Linda Shelton had committed adultery.
NOTE: I do not believe that she did such. But, for the purpose of the arguement let us say that she had done so.
If Linda Shelton had committed adultery that would have been sin. It would have been the sin of adultery. But, it would not have been "leaving her husband [Danny Shelton] for another man" unless she then filed for the divorce.
Folks, married people do commit adultery. More often than not, those who commit adultery do not leave their marital spouse. Rather they return to the marriage and attempts are made by both people to save the marriage. If the marriage cannot be saved, one of the parties will likely file for a divorce. It is that party that left the marriage and the other spouse. One might argue that the leaving party was justifed in doing so. Regardless, it is that party that left their spouse.
Linda Shelton did not leave Danny for another man regardless of whether or not she committed adultery. I do not beleive that she committed adultery.
Bravo, Mr Matthews!!! Outstanding analysis.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Johann,
Like I said before. No one of the 3ABN defenders will believe what you say because they will twist and turn the truth to make it a lie.
edited to make the sentence more specific----
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Just wanted to add a little tidbit.
I also never heard George Vandeman repeatedly discuss how many years he had been in the ministry (never heard any other preacher for that matter) nor how well his ministry is doing and discussing the name of his program repeatedly ad nauseum. Neither did he discard his wife of many years for a younger filley.
(Just my twist of the truth and rumormongering)
did you think DS was a twin to GVanderman? Of course not. He is his own person and his own personality. This is first grade stuff "guide4him" come on---did you expect DS to be a clone?
For the record for those who are lurking and who may not know, Danny Shelton did NOT "discard" his wife. SHE LEFT HIM FOR ANOTHER MAN. Just to make sure the truth is understood here. This is no "twist of the truth" either--it is the REAL TRUTH.
You are absolutely right, DANNY LEE SHELTON IS NO VANDERMAN!!!
Then again, you are absolutely wrong, Linda did not LEAVE DANNY and the evidence clearly demonstrates that he did "DISCARD" his wife of 23 years and he did end up with a young new filly. That is what the evidence demonstrates and YOU cannot point to any evidence produced to refute that eternal truth!!!
But, then again, I would just LOVE IT if you would!!! What a headline for the ENQUIRER!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
This reminds me of a conversation with Danny Shelton before all of this started. Danny was comparing Doug Batchelor with George Vandeman. As far as I recall Danny spoke very highly of Doug Batchelor as the perfect TV speaker whom the viewer could identify with. This was not the case with George Vandeman whose clothing, hairdo, expressions, and everything seemed too perfect for the average TV viewer to identify with. As far as I remember Danny gave this as the reason why he did not use George Vandeman's recordings on 3ABN.
I have never seen George Vandeman on 3ABN, but I have watched him on HOPE - with his vivid presentations of the gospel and the Advent message.
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Johann,
Like I said before. No one of the 3ABN defenders will believe what you say because they will twist and turn the truth to make it a lie.
edited to make the sentence more specific----
This has been my sad experience.
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"It is my understanding that if one spouse of their own free will moves out and gets another residence then they are the one who left.
Linda purchased a trailer in Carbondale before the divorce was filed in June of 2004.
Johann wrote how he and the Doctor went and looked at it in May of 2004.
Something here does not add up."
In some States that is the law under the divorce statutes, and when that happens that fact, subject to rebuttal, may be used to say that the one spouse abandoned the other.
My position, and perhaps not well stated that the the person who abandons the marriage is the one who files for divorce.
There are many situations in which a couple will decide to live seperately but to remain married. In such situations it is not appropriate to say that the one person has either abandoned the marriage or has left for another man/woman.
To illustrate further: In many States a divorce proceeding begins with a legal decree that seperates the couple but does not end the marriage. Later, after a stated period of time, the marriage will only end if one of the parties files an additional action to end the marriage.
Your clarification is well founded.
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George Vandeman-too perfect? He could not help it that he was nice looking and a soft spoken person. What you saw on TV was the real Pastor Vandeman. He spoke to me in person in the same manner that he spoke on his programs. He was genuine. We should all have a burden for souls like he did.
The end is NOW. Are we ready for the loud cry? Do we have true faith and a burden to others.
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We need our own Day of Atonement before we will care about others.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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We need our own Day of Atonement before we will care about others.
Gailon Arthur Joy
:dogwag:
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And after all this time has passed,
Danny got his divorce from Linda, married a cute lil filly,
she divorced him,
he is now sporting a new cutie on his arms and still bragging about his single handedly founding 3ABN ad nauseum...doesn't sound like ministering to me.
Now, where is Linda? Oh yes, still single and still ministering to others.
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If someone else of the female gender takes DS on it makes me embarrassed to be a woman. Why would any female with even half a brain want a man who has been married three other times. Do they really think that they are so special and that it will be different with them? Come on women, wake up and smell the postum!! It is better to be alone and like yourself than to be with some looser, even if he is an "Adventist Pop Star". :hot:
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Oh my Grat,
Wonder how old this one is, didn't know this. Are you sure another stepped in?(laugh) for what great reason? (laugh)
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Better to be single than to wish you were.
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he is now sporting a new cutie on his arms ....
Who is she? Will she be introduced on 3ABN, or has she already been?
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Go back to watching older programs 3ABN had at General Conference. he even attributed meeting his current 'love interest' to the lady who was interviewing him. The lady was standing close to Danny. She works at 3ABN. She is tall slim with short curly light colored hair if my memory serves me right. Wish I had taped that segment. Forgot who was interviewing Danny and current lady friend. Dont recall the name of lady friend.
You do know Danny loves attention and showing off his latest aquisition. He just did it quietly this time.
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Johann,
Like I said before. No one of the 3ABN defenders will believe what you say because they will twist and turn the truth to make it a lie.
edited to make the sentence more specific----
This has been my sad experience.
:dogwag:
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Just noticed this thread about McNeilus. He had two of my very good friends barred from ASI and 3ABN, so I don't think much of him.
Harold.
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Just noticed this thread about McNeilus. He had two of my very good friends barred from ASI and 3ABN, so I don't think much of him.
Harold.
I would love to know the how and why? ASI has become quite the elite organization, almost masonic-Like, in the old days.
And the ASI Missions, Inc is even more elite and seems to control ASI and it's money.
The governance of this entire institution is "questionable?!! Have you met anyone who was on a large committee, a nominating committee or voted on the nominee's??? Get the point???
Time for a different organization.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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As to the details, should I send them privately?
Harold.
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Just noticed this thread about McNeilus. He had two of my very good friends barred from ASI and 3ABN, so I don't think much of him.
Harold.
I would love to know the how and why? ASI has become quite the elite organization, almost masonic-Like, in the old days.
And the ASI Missions, Inc is even more elite and seems to control ASI and it's money.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Do you want me to post them here or send them privately?
Harold.
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Just noticed this thread about McNeilus. He had two of my very good friends barred from ASI and 3ABN, so I don't think much of him.
Harold.
I would love to know the how and why? ASI has become quite the elite organization, almost masonic-Like, in the old days.
And the ASI Missions, Inc is even more elite and seems to control ASI and it's money.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Do you want me to post them here or send them privately?
Harold.
Sorry, been a bit busy...a private response to my e-mail would probably be appropriate until we have verified the details.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Was it on purpose you didn't say "Merry Christmas"?
Just noticed this thread about McNeilus. He had two of my very good friends barred from ASI and 3ABN, so I don't think much of him.
Harold.
I would love to know the how and why? ASI has become quite the elite organization, almost masonic-Like, in the old days.
And the ASI Missions, Inc is even more elite and seems to control ASI and it's money.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Do you want me to post them here or send them privately?
Harold.
Sorry, been a bit busy...a private response to my e-mail would probably be appropriate until we have verified the details.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Have the details been verified yet?
Just noticed this thread about McNeilus. He had two of my very good friends barred from ASI and 3ABN, so I don't think much of him.
Harold.
I would love to know the how and why? ASI has become quite the elite organization, almost masonic-Like, in the old days.
And the ASI Missions, Inc is even more elite and seems to control ASI and it's money.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Do you want me to post them here or send them privately?
Harold.
Sorry, been a bit busy...a private response to my e-mail would probably be appropriate until we have verified the details.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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No...the contact information has been defective and I am looking for an alternative communication medium.
However, where there is smoke, there is fire and other complaints have surfaced and being tracked at this point.
As usual, the document trail is always the difficult part, but, it will open in time, if it is to be...always has and always will...every institution has it's sieve!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter