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[inga]

Likewise Bonnie, I understand only too well how families can be bankrupted physically, financially, emotionally and even in regard to family relationships, when one chooses to go with their conscience, rather than bow to pressure from those who have the money and the power.

I would dearly love to financially support Mr Joy and Mr Pickle, but my husband and I have already paid a price that has left us to reply on a very small Government pension in our retirement. Not the way one expects their working life to end, but would I do the same again, given the same set of circumstances? Yes. Indeed I would. One still has to live with their conscience and do what they believe to be right.

I would appeal to people to support Gailon and Bob all hey can. Surely, if there are bank rolls out there to support DS and 3abn, there must also be people who can support Joy and Pickle.

Ozzie, I can certainly understand your situation, because we are in a similar one. However, it also occurred to me that most of us would not miss $5.00 - $25.00 a month, even though we are on a limited budget. The few dollars from many add up. That's how 3ABN takes in millions. There's not nearly as many who know of the need for money by two men who have put their possessions and families on the line for the sake of justice as there are 3ABN contributors. Maybe we can spread the word?

I'm thinking that if I were in their place, I would appreciate the small contributions as well as the larger ones. Thus, following the Golden Rule, I will be adding some money to the fund at www.pickle-publishing.com/defensefund.htm

(I'm going to ask Bob to put in a PayPal link as well, because that is better for some who'd prefer not to use a credit card. Furthermore, PayPal allows setting up monthly contributions for a stated period of time.)

[J.R. Layman]

What kind of a denomination do we belong to? I am not questioning SDA doctrine, but an organization.
.......
I don't care that this is something that plagues all denominations, we claim to be different.

Hmmmmm, Right on Bonnie!  I was onced married to the daughter of a conference president.  Little did I know that she'd been suduced at the age of 15 by a "Ordained minister," a member of the Faith For Today Quartet, and then had a 7 year affair with that "minister."   I was off fighting some Vietnamize who wished to kill me.....and I'd always loved that girl from the age of 16!  So we got married ..........when she was through with me......of course she got a divorce which her father (the Conference President)  got approved irrespective of what was morally right.   Then she married another PK, (who happened to be a convicted felon of gang rape)

Now she's on her 3rd husband and is the "Dean" of students at an independent right wing EGW inspired school in British Columbia.     Sorry.....but "what kind of denomination do we belong to.......but an organization"   I had to leave that "organization" so that I could maintain some coherence of a relationship with Jesus Christ! 

FWIW, when I went to Atlantic Union College.....the secretary for the "Dean  of Students,"  you know the gal who typed the letters of censure to students......was having an affair with the chairman of the Business Department....who later on became the Treasure of the Canadian Union!   Her husband, the assistant manager of the ABC in South Lancaster, was quite hacked off about that! 

[Chrissie]

Hmmmmm, Right on Bonnie!  I was onced married to the daughter of a conference president.  Little did I know that she'd been suduced at the age of 15 by a "Ordained minister," a member of the Faith For Today Quartet, and then had a 7 year affair with that "minister."   I was off fighting some Vietnamize who wished to kill me.....and I'd always loved that girl from the age of 16!  So we got married ..........when she was through with me......of course she got a divorce which her father (the Conference President)  got approved irrespective of what was morally right.   Then she married another PK, (who happened to be a convicted felon of gang rape)

Now she's on her 3rd husband and is the "Dean" of students at an independent right wing EGW inspired school in British Columbia.     Sorry.....but "what kind of denomination do we belong to.......but an organization"   I had to leave that "organization" so that I could maintain some coherence of a relationship with Jesus Christ! 

FWIW, when I went to Atlantic Union College.....the secretary for the "Dean  of Students,"  you know the gal who typed the letters of censure to students......was having an affair with the chairman of the Business Department....who later on became the Treasure of the Canadian Union!   Her husband, the assistant manager of the ABC in South Lancaster, was quite hacked off about that! 

You sound like a very bitter person J R Layman. Sometimes, one needs to 'let go' of issues and get on with life. You cannot judge an entire organisation by several people's misdemeanours. There are good people as well as those who are otherwise, both in the church and out of it.

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Bitterness results from the failure of the Church to query, investigate and discipline open and notorious sins in the church. It is a blashemy before the Lord.

Each of these issues is an open sin with many victims. Many are bitter and discouraged and have turned away from the Faith. While administrators move on and become stories in someone's tell-all books, but still get their pensions!!!

In my opinion, there needs to be a whole lot more websites. Of course these would not be neccasary if their was a confession of sin and the asking of foregivness that restored the Faith of the embittered.

Gailon Arthur Joy

[bonnie]

You sound like a very bitter person J R Layman. Sometimes, one needs to 'let go' of issues and get on with life. You cannot judge an entire organisation by several people's misdemeanours. There are good people as well as those who are otherwise, both in the church and out of it.

These kinds of statements is exactly what causes what you label bitterness. 
Misdemeanours are one thing. That is when someone is rude, says something you don't like,etc. A misdemeanour is not what you call it when your whole life is destroyed by those in positions of power and then it is laid at your feet to try to reconstruct your life and "get over it like a common cold". While trying to rebuild your life,you watch as it continues to happen. Getting over it as described by most SDA's is forgetting what it did to a marriage, innocent children, extended family. Forgetting that as you try to rebuild, many are still active in tearing down.The many in the office/pew overshadow those few good people in the organization. The few good people are not enough to take the reigns and say NO MORE. Your sin of not getting over it is deemed far worse than the ones that go on and on, letting it happen over and over,while someone says there are good people so ignore the rest.

J.R can speak for himself,but for most it is not bitterness or anger against the actual guilty party,it is against those that would continue to allow this to keep going. A abuser can only continue to abuse with the permission and aid of those able to stop this conduct and refuse to do so.

This is not the common cold, get plenty of fluid and in 5-7 days you are all better.

In many of us it even produces the desire to make those in the pew aware and try to enlist their help, maybe even protecting their own families. Generally they are not interested. What does interest them is to keep using that badly used and abused word forgivness. They have spoken biblically, they are sure, and that should be the end of a uncomfortable story and facts they do not care to deal with.

I, so far have not been able to find any backlash,action,demands by parents of this college. If my son or daughter were enrolled here, I would be wanting answers. Nor would a dime of tution money be forthcoming till I had some. If I were a  doner alumni,I would stop all donations till I had some response.
I would want to know what safeguards, I would want to know if there were prior complaints against this man ignored, if so, I would want an immediate answer as to why. Why would I as a parent want to pay for the "privilege" of having my child molested.

Have you ever played pick-up sticks. This is what this whole mess within our denomination plays.  If they pull the wrong stick, the whole mess comes rolling out. It is easy to focus on the one guilty party, but does anyone really believe that those that gave the one guilty a pass for so many years did so only with one?  When caught, they may finally remove the one stick, but you can be sure they keep mighty quiet about all the other sticks allowed in the pile. And are mighty careful not to disturb the wrong stick

They instead turn it on a victim.if you play nice and forget what we have done and continue to do, we will forgive you for being silly enough to be a victim. This gets picked up by those sitting in the pew.  Any desire to effect change, to prevent the next victim, to make the pew sitters aware is seen as bitterness. More accurately,it is complete frustration and disbelief that the denomination you love is as callous as it is.

"Let's move on with spreading the gospel". We won't miss or care about those that fall by the wayside. After all, if they would get it together, they wouldn't fall. There are plenty more to be saved
For many, those that abuse and those that allow "spreading of the gospel" has a whole different meaning about what is being spread.



Collectively, with just the few active forums alone, there are enough to be heard and listened to. Debates abound on all other issues, I have seen on a couple of forums where the pros-and cons- of wearing jewerly can go fo over 60 pages.
I have watched the number of posts on the forums concerning what takes place in our schools and churches. Hardly a bleep by comparison.
While watching the damage done to my grandchildren, it would have been such a relief to worry about the wearing of a ring

[bonnie]

All those that "hold the coat" of those that abuse, should be the first to loose their position and preferably their pension. You can bet on it that they don't turn a blind eye and many times help cover for just one.
It is the whole issue they care little about. As for me, knowing the ones that turned a blind eye for thirty years,have nothing to say to me. No matter how biblical, how spiritual they sound, I believe nothing that comes out of their mouth. A person cannot be corrupt in one area and incorruptible in all other area's.

Forgivness then becomes a abusive tool. One that preached long enough at a victim and nothing else does more damage than the original abuse

[Ozzie]

All those that "hold the coat" of those that abuse, should be the first to loose their position and preferably their pension. You can bet on it that they don't turn a blind eye and many times help cover for just one.
It is the whole issue they care little about. As for me, knowing the ones that turned a blind eye for thirty years,have nothing to say to me. No matter how biblical, how spiritual they sound, I believe nothing that comes out of their mouth. A person cannot be corrupt in one area and incorruptible in all other area's.

Agreed Bonnie. Once a person is caught out in any situation, those who are affected are not going to believe a word of what is said thereafter. If there is a pattern of 'turning a blind eye' to any problem within the church, those responsible need to be removed, and yes. I agree that their pensions should go also.

Forgivness then becomes a abusive tool. One that preached long enough at a victim and nothing else does more damage than the original abuse

Indeed, 'forgiveness' is preached at the expense of rectifying the problem and ensuring that safeguards are put in place, so that the same cannot happen again. Too often, people are told to forgive and forget, while perpetraters go on as before.  It is this attitude that started the groundswell against 3abn.

[Chrissie]

You sound like a very bitter person J R Layman. Sometimes, one needs to 'let go' of issues and get on with life. You cannot judge an entire organisation by several people's misdemeanours. There are good people as well as those who are otherwise, both in the church and out of it.

These kinds of statements is exactly what causes what you label bitterness. 
Misdemeanours are one thing. That is when someone is rude, says something you don't like,etc. A misdemeanour is not what you call it when your whole life is destroyed by those in positions of power and then it is laid at your feet to try to reconstruct your life and "get over it like a common cold". While trying to rebuild your life,you watch as it continues to happen. Getting over it as described by most SDA's is forgetting what it did to a marriage, innocent children, extended family. Forgetting that as you try to rebuild, many are still active in tearing down.The many in the office/pew overshadow those few good people in the organization. The few good people are not enough to take the reigns and say NO MORE. Your sin of not getting over it is deemed far worse than the ones that go on and on, letting it happen over and over,while someone says there are good people so ignore the rest.

Bonnie, my response was not just to what was written here in this last post. I acknowledge the truth of everything you have written here, and how people can be affected by a corrupt system that destroys their lives.

However, my comments also referred to very untrue allegations that J R Layman laid against me previously. Those remarks have now been removed from this Board, but it does make me more cautious of J R Laymen, because of his unfounded allegations against me personally.

People can be so overcome with bitterness, that they do not recognise 'truth' when they see it, or they tar everyone with the same brush. There is a need to be able to stand back and not accuse everyone, because one has been hurt by a multiplicity of people or systems. Not everyone is a rotten apple.

[bonnie]

My biggest objection is using words like "misdemeanor" to describe  evil, immoral acts that tear families apart.
This is exactly how events like this are viewed.
Only when the day comes it is seen as the evil it is,will any progress be made. While I believe we have many good pastors, I do not believe that applies to those in leadership. Those that could actually bring an end to much of this. Statistically I do not know what the numbers are for pastors/teachers etc that abuse are. Probably relatively small. The ones that hold the power are the ones that need to be called to account,along with the guilty and much larger in number.
If the majority in leadership positions took a stand, the few by comparison that do this could not be free to operate this way. Why don't they? They are the ones that need to be stopped and it starts at the highest level. So far they are pretty untouchable, acting for all the world like a few soothing words and the dismissal of one is the answer.

For every one that is dismissed, how many are passed over to the next conference or have it covered up. The attitude of it being only a misdemeanor is alive and well

Just our case alone involved five conferences and scores of individuals that knew the capabilities of this man.It began with a memo from his first pastoral job. A memo was sent out to his peers in the conference. Cautioning them to guard their families. To bad the same concern was not shown for all those including my family. And yes, we have the notarized statement to that effect.

This is not denial, it is evil. This is not about not knowing what to do, it is about not caring enough to do anything.

[Ozzie]

My biggest objection is using words like "misdemeanor" to describe  evil, immoral acts that tear families apart.
This is exactly how events like this are viewed.
Only when the day comes it is seen as the evil it is,will any progress be made. While I believe we have many good pastors, I do not believe that applies to those in leadership. Those that could actually bring an end to much of this. Statistically I do not know what the numbers are for pastors/teachers etc that abuse are. Probably relatively small. The ones that hold the power are the ones that need to be called to account,along with the guilty and much larger in number.
If the majority in leadership positions took a stand, the few by comparison that do this could not be free to operate this way. Why don't they? They are the ones that need to be stopped and it starts at the highest level. So far they are pretty untouchable, acting for all the world like a few soothing words and the dismissal of one is the answer.

For every one that is dismissed, how many are passed over to the next conference or have it covered up. The attitude of it being only a misdemeanor is alive and well

Just our case alone involved five conferences and scores of individuals that knew the capabilities of this man.It began with a memo from his first pastoral job. A memo was sent out to his peers in the conference. Cautioning them to guard their families. To bad the same concern was not shown for all those including my family. And yes, we have the notarized statement to that effect.

This is not denial, it is evil. This is not about not knowing what to do, it is about not caring enough to do anything.

  Amen.

[J.R. Layman]

[quote chrissie]
You sound like a very bitter person J R Layman. Sometimes, one needs to 'let go' of issues and get on with life. You cannot judge an entire organisation by several people's misdemeanours. There are good people as well as those who are otherwise, both in the church and out of it.

I am not "bitter," (and I'd PREFER that you cease from "LABELING" me, as I believe that is AGAINST the Rules here!) I'm a realist, "Chrissie."   But if an "Organization" is rift with sin, poor leadership, nepotism, financial mismanagement,   (the issue of 3ABN is a perfect example) ....etc....it should be acknowledged!  Hey, I enjoyed my 3 years at AUC      Lets see, had a very hot motorcycle  (my brother demanded I give it to him, when I told him that I was flying over 7 bridge road in Lancaster at 117 mph  ), a low slung Italian convertible sports car (my now dear wife, got that totaled in Houston, when an illigal immagrant ran into her), a fast water ski boat (sold that to my buddy in another conferance, where he was Youth Director, for his summer camp), ...lived near Boston, met a great girl at AUC  (my best friend ever)   Although I was very busy…taking a full load, whilst a Staff Sergeant at nearby Ft. Devens in the U.S. Army  (which fortunately I was working nights in the ER…so I could do that) ....I'm simply recognizing what went on there.  Let's see, besides the Chair of the Bus. Department (who ended up as the Canadian Union Treasure!) and his "affair" with the secretary to the Dean of Students.   The  members of the "Art Department" were trading around wife’s and husbands!  One of the "Professors" in the Religion Department was known to be a homosexual....another "professor" in the Religion Department....got rid of his wife a few years later for a younger woman!

FWIW...the WORST "sermon" I ever listened to.....was when the then pastor of the college church extolling the virtues of building a new church, and the financial sacrifice to do so.   NOT ONCE during the WHOLE WORSHIP was the name of God/Christ/Jesus mentioned...even in the "prayers!"  I think it was then at that "service" that I first started questioning my relationship with the Adventist church. (of course that “pastor” went on to become the President of the SNEC of SDA)......The divorce from another Conference President's daughter didn't make me "bitter,"  (OK her stealing my kids from me, and keeping them from me sorta did!).  But I can still recall sitting up in the balcony of Macklin Auditorium at AUC.....attending "church" and not getting an ounce of spiritual blessing  (when at that point in my life, I very much needed spiritual support!) .......now THAT did get me thinking of why I was WASTING my time attending an Adventist Church!   So now I'm just an "Adventist"....simply not an official "Seventh-day Adventist."

[inga]

So now I'm just an "Adventist"....simply not an official "Seventh-day Adventist."

Well, JR, I'm glad you're still an "Adventist." 

Sometimes it's necessary to stand at a little distance to get a better perspective.

I believe the gospel net (including the Adventist brand) draws in all kinds of fish -- good one, middling ones, bad ones and rotten ones. You seem to have been pretty much buried in a pile of rotten fish. 

At that point it's necessary to decide what the gospel is and what the rotten fish are. 

FWIW, I believe there is no clearer expression of the Good News than that contained in Adventist doctrines. I've even known a few Adventists who demonstrate this truth in their lives. I'm sorry you haven't. Maybe you can be one who demonstrates what it means to be a genuine Adventist Christian to those who come in contact with you? (After all, if we're all looking for the demonstration in someone else, who's there left to demonstrate?  )

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

Now you know why the AUReporter was born!!! Not appreciated by the denominational leadership, but born and read, nonetheless, much to their chagrin!!! \

Unfortunately, we are only slightly better off in the Atlantic Union than the period that JRLaymen was here, but, the bleed is halted and we work toward reformation every day. One step at a time.

You, JR Laymen, have accurately portrayed the mess in what Mainers came to call "the Unholy City" of Lancaster, Mass. Just too many humans and not enough Christians. Too many closed sessions and too few open and transparent discussion of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The truth, properly disclosed pursuant to Matthew 18, should be cathartic and refomatatory, not to mention conciliatory.

Gailon Arthur Joy

Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter

[J.R. Layman]

Well I just hope that Norman can clean up the mess at AUC (Haitians having  a riot against  Bermudians...and having to call in 6 local police departments!) ....I knew him slightly as a kid....when we lived in NYC.  He was a nice guy, very cerebral , even back then in the 60's.   Jack Menges (also from NYC) ...the "Dean of Students" isn't a guy to mess with......(somehow I'm somewhat related to him by marriage...haven't figured out how).  But he also has an extremely tough path to follow...to be "politically correct" and still be able to demonstrate some sort of discipline over that rowdy bunch of students!  FWIW....AUC keeps calling and sending appeals to both my wife and I for Alumni donations......Sorry.....we'll skip!

The question remains....Will AUC represent "African Union College" or will it represent "Atlantic Union College?"  Of all 22 graduates of Pinetree Academy several years ago, in Freeport, Maine.....21 went to Southern University or other colleges, and only ONE went to AUC according to a friend of mine, up in Freeport.

I noted that a picture of a recent  graduating class of AUC, simply had NO White  Anglo-Saxon American Males.......not to say I'm a bigot  (I am) ...but when my nephew went there....he lasted about 4 days, before he decided on going to AU.

When I went to AUC in the late 70’s one of my buddies (who happened to be black) and I decided we’d have a ”White Christian Union” like the “Black Christian Union” at AUC…  We mentioned it to Dr. Carolyn (forget her last name) of the English Dept (usually the most :LIBERAL on any campus)…..She got really PO’d at us.  ROFL

[Gailon Arthur Joy]

There is no question that Racism and Apartheid, going both ways, is alive and well in the Atlantic Union. It is a real spit in the face to Christianity, the Millerites and to the ideals of the Seventh-day Adventist founders to have this undercurrent of ongoing divisiveness so persistent within our denominational institutions. And right here, in the cradle of Seventh-day Adventism.

It is a major reason that AUC continues to struggle for survival and why it is likely that AUC and the Atlantic Union Conference will no longer exist in the years ahead. A sad tribute to the likes of Haskell, Prescott and so many others were such a great group of pioneers of the Faith of Jesus.

There are many who work diligently to see the fulfillment of the Counsels' famous "the work will return to the East with power" statement, including Mark and Tiny Finley. They have had great success re-igniting lay activities in Northern New England and Share Him is working hard to get things going in Southern New England, but it is at best a spark of what will be when the "Lord manifests His Power within the church".

But, rest assured, that day is coming!!!

Gailon Arthur Joy