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Author Topic: Evolution at La Sierra?  (Read 23616 times)

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Bob Pickle

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Evolution at La Sierra?
« on: March 10, 2009, 09:42:04 PM »

http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university

Erv Taylor appears in the above piece to be promoting evolution, and appears to be saying that evolution is actively taught at La Sierra.

I would hope this is not true. If it is true, I hope someone at AToday has a talk with Erv, and I hope the appropriate church leaders clean up La Sierra. This is no time in earth's history to be dabbling with apostasy, skepticism, and unbelief.
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Johann

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 01:40:48 AM »

April 30, 2009
> Pastors Jan Paulsen, Don C. Schneider, Ricardo Graham
> General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists
> 12501 Old Columbia Pike
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Dear Pastors Paulsen, Schneider, and Graham,
>
> Greetings in the name of Jesus Christ. Like each of you, I
> am an ordained pastor of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist
> Church. I write these words with my heart on full
> display--from pastor to pastor. This letter concerns the
> teaching of evolution at La Sierra University. While I am
> not a formally trained scientist, I am, however, familiar
> with many of the apologetic, philosophical, and theological
> issues surrounding the theories of naturalistic evolution. I
> have made this an area of special study in my life and
> ministry. So, I feel both comfortable and qualified to speak
> to the issue, especially in its ecclesiastical
> ramifications.
>
> It is a matter of incontestable fact that naturalistic
> evolution is being taught at La Sierra University. This is
> not in and of itself a bad thing. Evolution should be taught
> at our denominational universities. But it should be taught
> as a competing and inimical worldview to the biblical
> worldview. We need our young people to know what it is they
> are up against, yes, but when naturalistic evolution is
> taught as fact or as the preferred and normative worldview,
> then we can be sure that the enemy has breached our lines.
>
> There is no point in equivocating. I have seen the class
> materials with my own eyes. Frankly, I think every
> Seventh-day Adventist deserves to see them. Our people need
> to know what is happening. Many of them have heard various
> rumblings, but being the conscientious, confiding, and
> hopeful people they are, they have generally assumed the
> very best. We are making capital of their trust.
>
> In 2003 I preached a two-week evangelistic meeting on the
> Loma Linda University campus. The event was student-led and
> university-sponsored. Many students from La Sierra
> University attended those meetings, and I personally visited
> with many of them. They told me what was being taught in
> some of their science classes. I shall never forget the
> looks and questions of unadorned incredulity that I
> witnessed among those students. I have talked to many more
> since. What should I do? Should I say something? Should I
> just attend a non-SDA school??Do our leaders know about
> this??How come these people are allowed to teach at a
> Seventh-day Adventist University??These young people, and
> many others like them, are justifiably nonplussed. Frankly,
> I share their confusion!
>
> What deeply concerns me is that the faith of many students,
> who look up to their Adventist professors as more than just
> academic instructors, but also as spiritual leaders, is
> being undermined. Jesus' words in Luke 17:1, 2 about
> causing one of these little ones to stumble carry
> inestimable weight, and they should be reason enough to
> propel us to responsible action. Brethren, what are we doing
> and allowing? Will not God hold us accountable in our
> respective spheres for what happens on our watch?
>
> I am aware, of course, that the church's governmental
> structure gives institutions like La Sierra University a
> necessary degree of administrative freedom. This is a good
> and wise arrangement. But this freedom, surely, is not
> synonymous with virtually unaccountable autonomy. La Sierra
> University is, after all, a denominational university. If
> the board has not yet adequately addressed this matter, then
> doesn't that evince a kind of complicity, if not
> outright mismanagement and denominational disloyalty? I
> genuinely ask, at what point is La Sierra University's
> board accountable and answerable to you men and the levels
> of church government that you represent? When, if ever, can
> someone step in and save our children and the institutions
> they attend?
>
> Governing and administrative structures are not the church.
> The people are the church. The governing and administrative
> structures are the scaffolding of the church. Scaffolds are
> for building and strengthening a thing; they are not the
> thing itself. But what if some are using the scaffolding to
> tear down the very church they were commissioned and created
> to build up? What then? I genuinely want to know. Where does
> the buck stop?
>
> Perhaps you feel that your hands are tied by policy and
> protocol. But surely they cannot be tied completely. What
> should I, as a church pastor, do if someone is teaching
> doctrine that undermines the church's biblical positions
> in one of my Sabbath School classes? Wouldn't it be
> expected of me, the pastor--shepherd--of the flock, to
> address it? To ask this question is to answer it. Of course,
> I would work through the Sabbath School council and the
> church board, but you can be sure that I would deal with the
> problem. My conference president, to say nothing of my Lord,
> would surely hold me in contempt
>
> if I told him lamely that my hands were tied, no?
>
> Furthermore, the greater the errancy, the greater the
> urgency. As even a cursory analysis plainly reveals, few
> doctrines are at greater philosophical odds with Seventh-day
> Adventism than naturalistic evolution, the arguments of
> well-meaning theistic evolutionists notwithstanding. Our
> Magna Carta is Revelation 14:6-12. If naturalistic evolution
> is true, Creation is cremated, the Sabbath is sabotaged, and
> our very name is neutered. What becomes of Scripture? And of
> our unique eschatology? We are not talking about bongo
> drums, wedding bands, and Christmas trees here.
>
> If our hands are tied, then surely we must let an
> unfaltering love for God, for His Word, and for His young
> people dash these fetters into so many deserved pieces! We
> must do something. You must do something.
>
> Who knows but that you have come to your positions for such
> a time as this. My ministry places me in somewhat of a
> unique situation in the world church. In partnership with
> the Central California Conference, I run ARISE, a mission
> training school that has seen hundreds of young people over
> the last seven years. I also have the privilege of preaching
> regularly on 3ABN and the Hope Channel. Too, I travel all
> over the world holding evangelistic meetings and preaching
> at camp meetings, youth conferences, weeks of prayer, etc. I
> genuinely feel that I have my finger on the pulse of the
> average lay person in the Seventh-day Adventist church the
> world over. Especially the young people ages 15 to 30. I can
> say with unblinking confidence that God is working in His
> church! Praise Him!
>
> I just arrived home from the Youth Mission Congress in
> Frankfurt, Germany. Over 1600 young people attended the
> meetings. Night after night I preached the Adventist
> message--I preached Christ! The theme chosen for the
> congress was Follow the Bible, and what an indescribable joy
> it was to see, at the end of my last sermon, hundreds and
> hundreds of young people streaming forward. All of them had
> personal decision cards in their hands. A beautiful,
> five-foot-tall wooden Bible had been constructed for just
> this moment. On the side of the Bible was a slot designed to
> receive the decision cards the young people clutched in
> their surrendered hands. One by one, each placed his or her
> card in the Bible. The symbolism was rich and thrillingly
> profound. It was impossible to not be moved at a fundamental
> level as each eager young person placed their decision, and
> thus their life in that wooden Bible. My translator openly
> wept at the sight. We will follow the Bible, they were each
> saying. All over the world, God's people--and in
> particular, it seems, His young people--are saying We will
> follow the Word--the Living Word, Jesus, and the Written
> Word, the Bible.
>
> God has entrusted us with these young people. They are His.
> He has given us His wise counsel to raise up institutions of
> learning to educate, equip, and empower them. To build them
> up.
>
> But what do we do when one of our institutions turns from
> this inestimably important responsibility, a responsibility
> that is fraught with eternal significance and involves the
> souls of those Jesus died to save? This is what I want to
> know.
>
> And so do many, many others.
>
> I thank each of you for your time, and, in advance, for
> your thoughtful responses.
>
> Sincerely,
> David Asscherick
> Director, ARISE
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Artiste

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 08:55:19 AM »

Several years ago I heard a friend in the geographic local of Berrien Springs, and a former student of Andrews, say that evolution has been proven scientifically without a doubt; the editor/publisher of the official church paper of the Pacific Union said the same in 2001.
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Johann

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 09:25:25 AM »

It seems to be a subject discussed frequently on SDAnet.com
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sonshineonme

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 03:03:17 PM »

Several years ago I heard a friend in the geographic local of Berrien Springs, and a former student of Andrews, say that evolution has been proven scientifically without a doubt; the editor/publisher of the official church paper of the Pacific Union said the same in 2001.

Do you know what kind of evolution? Things do evolve and change and that still works with creationism (God's creation), so is this the kind of "evolving" that is going around or being discussed? I find it very hard to bite on that our schools would teach the full form version of evolution (verses creationism).
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Artiste

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 01:00:30 AM »

I think the general idea from both sources was that the Biblical account of creationism was passe and had been disproved scientifically.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 05:56:45 AM »

Do you know what kind of evolution? Things do evolve and change and that still works with creationism (God's creation), so is this the kind of "evolving" that is going around or being discussed? I find it very hard to bite on that our schools would teach the full form version of evolution (verses creationism).

Absolutely, it's hard to bite on. It seems absolutely preposterous.

A number of months ago we were reading two books, Diamondola and Diamondola and Aram. They were church workers in the Middle East. According to the first book, Diamondola at the end of WWI actually died and was raised from the dead by a pastor in Turkey. Diamondola also accompanied a president of our work there when he tried to help Armenian Adventists who were forced to go on death marches toward and into the Syrian desert.

The second book is about her life after she married Aram. They had a daughter who married Lee Greer, Jr., and a grandchild also named Lee. I decided I'd try to see if I could locate any of these relatives of Diamondola and Aram.


9 May 2008; Report from the San Diego Adventist Forum Conference: Creation Care and Sustainability; By Jared Wright


Early on that article refers to "Lee F. Greer, Ph.D., Professor of Evolutionary Biology at La Sierra University." I wonder what Diamondola would think of that title if she were alive today?
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2009, 06:05:37 AM »


9 May 2008; Report from the San Diego Adventist Forum Conference: Creation Care and Sustainability; By Jared Wright


Early on that article refers to "Lee F. Greer, Ph.D., Professor of Evolutionary Biology at La Sierra University." I wonder what Diamondola would think of that title if she were alive today?

I wasn't the only one or the first one to wonder about that title. Clifford Goldstein was the first to comment on the article (see comments below the article at the above link):

Quote
"and Lee F. Greer, Ph.D., Professor of Evolutionary Biology at La Sierra University."

Teaching "evolutionary biology" at a, ahem, SDA institution?

Tell the SDA church isn't, in some places, sick.
Posted by: Clifford Goldstein (not verified) | 10 May 2008 at 2:34

Cliff quickly got accused of being shallow, and responded:

Quote
Elaine--

Rather than call me shallow and other names, why not ask our own on-the-payroll SDA "evolutionary biologist" yourself what he believes. Or better yet, ask him what he teaches in the classroom.
Posted by: Cliff Goldstein (not verified) | 10 May 2008 at 2:13

Then followed extended comments by Aage Rendalen, who left the church over Ford and was in the Collegedale area the same time Cliff was in the early 1980's. He appears to be defending the teaching of evolution.

Another comment from Cliff:

Quote
Alex--

Jesus also said, "In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" and if evolution isnt "a commandment of men," nothing is.

Evolution is apostasy from Jesus the Creator and Redeemer, not from Ellen White, who by the way called belief in evolution "disguised infidelity." I agree.

I'm beginning to wonder: Is there any worldly teaching out there, ANY? that Chrisians might find appalling enough to not try and incorporate it into their faith once it becomes du jour? I'm seriously beginning to doubt it. If so called "Christians" can find a way to incorporate evolution into their so called "faith" then I suppose nothing's off limits, huh?

"Sick," I think, is too kind of a word for it, actually.
Posted by: Cliff Goldstein (not verified) | 11 May 2008 at 1:23

If you want to read more of the comments of Cliff and other creation believers, as well as the comments of former and/or pseudo Adventists pushing evolution, just go to the above link and read the comments.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 06:15:26 AM »

Lastly, go to http://www.lasierra.edu/academics/bulletin.html and check out the academic bulletin. It states the following:

Quote
BIOL 113 General Biology III (4)
Introduction to plant biology, including photosynthesis, evolution, transport, nutrition, reproduction, and environmental responses. Additionally includes basic ecological principles and processes and behavioral ecology.
prereqisite: BIOL 111, 112

Quote
BIOL 467 Herpetology (4)
Identification, evolution, distribution, and life history of amphibians and reptiles. Three class hours per week and one three-hour laboratory or the equivalent per week.
Prerequisite: BIOL 111, 111L, 112, 112L, 113, 113L

Quote
BIOL 477 Vertebrate Natural History (4)
An evolutionary approach to the morphology, physiology, behavior, and ecology of major vertebrate groups with special emphasis given to the vertebrates of southern California. Treats the question of how members of different vertebrate groups live their lives, and critiques scientific hypotheses as to how these different life strategies evolved. The course is designed to engage students in the scientific thought process required to go from the observed to the theoretical. Weekend field trips will be taken to different regions of southern California. Three class hours per week and one three-hour laboratory or the equivalent per week
Prerequisite: BIOL 111, 111L, 112, 112L, 113, 113L

I could not find any biology classes described as being "A creationist approach to ...."
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 07:06:39 AM »

While I was searching for "Lee Greer," I also came across the following:

Quote
Daniel solidly anchors the pre-Kingdom Judgment in Covenant time within the final 'week' of the 70 sabbatical 'weeks' not with any other time (Dan. 7-9; Rev. 11-14 by allusion follow the same; Hebrews 4:12-16; 12:22-24; etc. throughout the NT). Likewise based on Daniel, the NT repeatedly links the commencement of the pre-Advent Judgment with Christ's death and ascension to God's right hand in the 1st century CE, not with the 19th century. (See Appendix 4 below, as well as the texts and discussion in the section above, The pre-Advent Judgment and the Scroll).

http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Rev4-5HCE.html

Quote
In “Debunking ‘the context problem’” (Adventist Review, 24 October 2002), Clifford Goldstein implies broadly that those (including loyal and conscientious Seventh-day Adventists) who have come to a different understanding of Daniel 8:14 than the traditional one have invented a “context problem.” He asserts that we don’t understand the Hebrew concept of justice and judgment, and that we reject the pre-Advent judgment. None of the above is correct.

...

Pre-Advent judgment. Yes, we embrace it because it is Biblical. The pre-Advent judgment convened at Calvary2 and extends to Advent (Ps. 110; John 12:31-33; 16:11; Rom. 3-4; Rev. 4-5; 6-7; 11; 12-14; Hebrews 4:11-16; 9-10; 12:22-24; I Pet. 4:17; I Tim. 5:24, etc.).

...

As Seventh-day Adventist Christians we are committed to a personal Second Advent, God’s eternal Covenant Law and holy Sabbath, the Three Angels’ messages, the non-immortality of the soul, and the vindication of the sanctuary.

http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Afriendlyresponse-Dan814.html

The last sentence quoted above does not appear to be either honest or correct, in my opinion. Since the 1st angel's message includes the announcement that the pre-advent judgment has begun in 1844 at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14, and since Mr. Greer above is quite clear that he does not believe the pre-advent judgment commenced in 1844, he had publicly repudiated part of the three angels' messages.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 07:16:16 AM »

Lastly, from http://www.frcforum.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=33 I read, "Lee F. Greer, III, is currently completing a PhD in molecular, developmental and evolutionary Biology at Loma Linda University."

This is all particularly strange to me since when I was at the La Sierra University Church in 1998, Ron Carter was on the platform. Ron was a pastor who went back and got a biology degree. He taught classes on creation and evolution as well as in biology in the 1980's at Southern. He opposed evolutionary theory. I assume that when he was on staff teaching (presumably) biology at La Sierra he still opposed it. If that assumption is correct, then La Sierra's biology department may have undergone a drastic paradigm shift in recent years.

By the way, if we refer to creationist scientists as creationist scientists, then we should also refer to evolutionary scientists as evolutionary scientists. Some evolutionists would like to pretend that a creationist cannot be a scientist, and using terminology that makes an evolutionist a particular type of scientist helps to dispel that bogus propaganda.
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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 08:50:29 AM »

If you want to read more of the comments of Cliff and other creation believers, as well as the comments of former and/or pseudo Adventists pushing evolution, just go to the above link and read the comments.

Would you call the current publisher/editor of the Pacific Union Recorder, the official SDA church paper for the Pacific Union, a former and/or pseudo Adventist?  (He was definitely pushing evolution.)
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 05:42:40 PM »

Perhaps that was a poor choice of wording on my part.

But it does raise the question, at what point is an Adventist not an Adventist? If an Adventist claims to be an atheist, are they still an Adventist?

It is a serious thing to deny what the Bible, Genesis, and the 4th commandment clearly and unequivocally teach regarding God creating the world in 6 days.

"Infidelity prevails to an alarming extent, not in the world merely, but in the church. Many have come to deny doctrines which are the very pillars of the Christian faith. The great facts of creation as presented by the inspired writers, the fall of man, the atonement, and the perpetuity of the law of God, are practically rejected, either wholly or in part, by a large share of the professedly Christian world" (GC 582-583).
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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 06:39:30 PM »

Perhaps that was a poor choice of wording on my part.

But it does raise the question, at what point is an Adventist not an Adventist? If an Adventist claims to be an atheist, are they still an Adventist?

It is a serious thing to deny what the Bible, Genesis, and the 4th commandment clearly and unequivocally teach regarding God creating the world in 6 days.

"Infidelity prevails to an alarming extent, not in the world merely, but in the church. Many have come to deny doctrines which are the very pillars of the Christian faith. The great facts of creation as presented by the inspired writers, the fall of man, the atonement, and the perpetuity of the law of God, are practically rejected, either wholly or in part, by a large share of the professedly Christian world" (GC 582-583).


I am starting to read some about this (in the links provided) but haven't gotten far enough yet...so I am going to ask this here - and it will sound much like my question before (in a reply to Artiste but not just for her to answer). Are they teaching the type of evolution that removes creation by God? I realize this may be a subject tied to many other subjects which might have different views or takes on what this or that means, but, simply, has creation by God been abandoned in these teachings or are they talking about the evolution (all is not bad) that has taken place. i.e. we were once 15 ft tall and lived 900 + years, we don't now for many actual reasons besides just saying "sin". So, as I need to do my own research, I would love it if some of the differences were simply stated? Maybe one of the links above will answer my question and I just haven't gotten to it yet...
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Evolution at La Sierra?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 07:33:35 PM »

I think you've asked a good question. Teaching from an evolutionary approach a biology class doesn't refer to "micro-evolution." It refers to run-of-the-mill evolution.

Consider this from the link at the top of this thread, http://www.atoday.com/fundamentalist-creationist-gets-lukewarm-student-reception-la-sierra-university:

Quote from: Erv Taylor in AToday
As an institution functioning within the Christian tradition, as expected, most students approach their understanding of the contemporary world from a theistic perspective and thus hold the view that God is responsible for the ultimate origin of the natural world.  In this sense, all Christians are "creationists" and thus, also in this sense, it would be expected that Adventist Christians would adhere to that view as well.

In popular contemporary discussions, the word "creationism" has acquired a connotation that has severely narrowed its meaning to describe a belief that the world and/or all of its life forms were created in the relatively recent past (less than 6000-10,000 years) in seven literal, 24-hour days and that there has been a even more recently, a world-wide Flood.  This more restrictive understanding of creationism has been adopted by some fundamentalist-oriented Protestant denominations and the fundamentalist wings of others.

Think about what he is saying above. He's saying that all Christians are creationists, even if they believe in evolution over millions of years.

He's also saying that belief in a 6-literal-day creation 6000 years ago is an extreme view. That's radical. It's heresy. It's unbiblical. And Ellen White called it "disguised infidelity."

Those are quotes from an article reporting alleged negative reaction to Sean Pitman's presentations at La Sierra. Yet Sean believes and teaches that the earth has been here maybe millions of years, and that life was created here 6000 years ago. I think he also teaches that the sun was here before Day 4. I don't see how any Adventist can liken Sean's positions to something ultra-conservative.

Incidentally, I do believe that the sun and moon were created on Day 4, and that the heavens, earth, sea, and all that in them is were created during a literal six days.

Someone pointed out to me that the same theories by which the Precambrian (layers below fossil layers) is dated is used to date the various fossil-bearing strata. Perhaps part of our problem today with evolution is that some of us accepted the idea that maybe the Precambrian layers are billions of years old, and that opened the door to using the same methods of dating on fossil bearing strata.

I don't share that to criticize Sean. I'm just pointing out how extreme the problem is when a creationist who allows for an ancient earth and parts of Gen. 1 to not mean what they say gets bashed by the executive publisher of a journal that uses the trademark "Adventist" in its name, bashed for upholding a creation of life on this planet 6000 years ago, bashed for believing in Noah's Flood.

And now next week AToday will feature contrary book reviews by Cliff Goldstein and Erv Taylor regarding a book on dinosaurs by an Adventist creationist attorney named Read. The reviews were announced as going to be contrary. In what way? It will be interesting to see. Methodology the author used? Or conclusions the author arrived at?
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