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Author Topic: The Samoan Sabbath Problem  (Read 42200 times)

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Johann

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The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« on: July 08, 2012, 06:26:15 AM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2012, 07:39:47 AM »

This issue has been arround for many decades.  Rober Leo Odem wrote a book on it which is long out of print.  As I recall the title of his book is:  The Lord's Day on a Round World.  This issue pre-dated Samoa by many years.  The issue became new in Samoa due to the recent change in the International Date Line.  It was an old issue at another place on the International Date Line, to the same facts that now exist in Samoa.

Simply put.  Due to the change in the International Date line, the 7th calendar day of the week in the area of Samoa is now called Sunday.  As a result, the Protestants now worship on the 7th day of the week as that day is called  Sunday.

The majority of SDAs have  continued to worship on the 7th calendar day of the week which is called Sunday and the same day that the other Protestanst worship on.  Some have objected to that and believe that they should continue to worship on the day called Saturday which is the actual 6th day of the week.

If you think that this is interesting, take a look at the Sabbath practices in Alaska.


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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2012, 08:40:30 AM »

There is actually a similar problem in many other parts of the world since the airlines issue a different calender, which they claim is easier for them to base their operations on.

Now Sunday is the 7th day of the week on the current calender, while Saturday is  the 6th day of the week. Some Sunday worshipers think it is strange that we preach we should keep the 7th day on Saturday since Sunday is   the 7th day!

It is easy to understand when we show that Easter as the day of Resurrection on the first day of the week is on Sunday, then the day before must be the 6th day in the original calender.

It still remains a strange phenomena to some when some of our people have started keeping Sunday just  like the Sunday keeping churches,  while others accept the change and then want to keep the Sabbath according to the new calender. Wouldn't this be more in harmony with the solution as outlined by Robert Leo Odom? Why should those people be regarded as heretics by church leadership?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 09:02:28 AM by Johann »
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 08:55:44 AM »

Yes, the problem clearly pre-dated Samoa.

As I said, Alaska is interesting.  As I understand it,  SDAs in Alaska keep three differenet versions of the Sabbath.

An Interesting point:  the first SDA Chruch that I attended when we moved to Coloraado had a strict member who faithfully kept one of the Alaska versions which was not the one normally kept in the Lower 48.

 
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 09:07:25 AM »

While editing my previous post I received an urgent call which delayed the editing for 20 minutes. In the meantime Gregory replied to my post beforfe the editing.

I only added a question. . .

It still remains a strange phenomena to some when some of our people have started keeping Sunday just  like the Sunday keeping churches,  while others accept the change and then want to keep the Sabbath according to the new calender. Wouldn't this be more in harmony with the solution as outlined by Robert Leo Odom? Why should those people be regarded as heretics by church leadership?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2012, 09:18:04 AM by Johann »
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SDAminister

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 11:19:23 AM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 01:27:11 PM »

By way of interest, there are a number of websites that discuss this issue.  Some are quite factual.  A number question what is being done.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 01:29:59 PM »

Amazon is selling THE LORDS DAY ON A ROUND WORLD, by Robert Leo Odem.  I recommend it.  It gives a lot of information to include some unusual Sabbath observences by SDAs in some places.
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 04:21:07 PM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people
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christian

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 08:47:45 PM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.
And you wonder why people think you are a Jesuit? It is the Day not the name that defines the Sabbath. Secondly trying to confuse a person on one unrelated issue as a stepping stone to confusing people on another unrelated issue is what can I say, Jesuitest? It ain't working. It seems you have resorted to using mind control NLP to substantiate your point. There is no real issue with the Samoan issue except in your mind. It is like asking the question if God can do anything can he make a rock that he cannot move and then move it? God is not dead the bible says remember the Sabbath Day to keep it holy 6 days shalt thou labor but the 7 day is the Sabbath... Again, it is an attack on the very pillars of Adventism but it will not succeed. Do you know why? Because God is not dead. ------Women ordination, Celebration movement, distortion of the Sabbath truth; none will be successful in destroying the commandments of God or shaking God's chosen people.
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SDAminister

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 09:34:25 PM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people

We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.

Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 12:04:18 AM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people

We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.

Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?

Why do you ask?

I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?

For many years I was dealing with news writing. I have been in contact with many reporters "reporting" to their media the information gathered from various sources without getting any kind of official approval of their report. Such official approvals were usually the trademarks of nazi or communist regimes. I once met a young female reporter covering the same event as I was. I discovered she had fled away from a communist country because she was fed up with the exclusiveness of official reports.
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SDAminister

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 07:19:21 AM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people

We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.

Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....

I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....


I asked you first.
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 12:49:30 PM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people

We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.

Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....

I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....


I asked you first.

You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you.

here you have two groups:

1. The majority has no problems. They have the support of

     a. Their church leaders

     b.  They keep the same day, Sunday, together with most other churches in the area. And since they do that:

     c. They will neve be persecuted for refusing to keep Sunday.

     d. They have little financial problems because they have the support of all the pastors who get paind from tithe money.

     e. Seemingly there will not be any problems from the General Conference.

      f. It even appears like they are supported by several members of this forum.

      g. A major problem for this group seems to be that more and more people leave this group and join the minority

2. The minority goup seem to have a greater awareness that they are in a difficult situation.

      a. A majority of their former fellow Adventist are against them

      b. The chuch leaders are against them.

       c. Pastors are not allowed to preach to them, so they are dependent of lay preachers and leaders.

        d. They risk financial problems because they receive less tithe and than the large group, and no finaclial support from the General Conference.

       e. Even some people on truth-loving AT accuse them of herecy.



Perhaps some of you would adjust theses lists.

       d. They probably meet ridicule from other Christian groups, as well as worldly people for not following the majority



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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 01:25:36 PM »

Here is the issue:

1)  We as a denomination have taught that we are to keep the Sabbath which is the 7th day of the week and we believe that the Sabbath has been preserved since the time of Chirst so that we know which day is the 7th and that day in the U.S. is called Saturday.

2) Due to a change in the International Date Line,  The day that had throughout history been called Saturday (English) had its name changed to Sunday.  NOTE:  This had previously been done in some other island areas.

3)  The question now became:
a)  Do we now continue to keep what has been the 7th day of the week but is now called Sunday? 
b) Or do we keep the day now called Saturday  but was previouslly called Friday (English)?

4) In harmony with our traditional doctrine that says the Sabbath  is what has been the 7th day of week and that God has preserved since the  time of Christ, the majority of SDAs continued to keep the  7th day even though it was now called Sunday and became the day that most Protestants worshiped on.

5) A minoritiy said No!  The 7th day is not important.  What is important is to worship on a day that is different from what the other Protestants worship on.

Well, as an interesting point:  In the U.S. some Protestants are having worship services on Saturday.  And, in my area, the Roman Catholic Chruch officially has Mass on Saturday that the Bishop has stated fulfills their obligation to go to Mass on  Sunday.

Maybe we Adventists should switch our services to Friday?  No!  the Islamics worship on that day.  How can we find a day to keep that is kept by no one else?


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