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Author Topic: The Samoan Sabbath Problem  (Read 42202 times)

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SDAminister

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2012, 04:13:57 PM »

Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people

We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.

Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....

I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....


I asked you first.

You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you.

here you have two groups:

1. The majority has no problems. They have the support of

     a. Their church leaders

     b.  They keep the same day, Sunday, together with most other churches in the area. And since they do that:

     c. They will neve be persecuted for refusing to keep Sunday.

     d. They have little financial problems because they have the support of all the pastors who get paind from tithe money.

     e. Seemingly there will not be any problems from the General Conference.

      f. It even appears like they are supported by several members of this forum.

      g. A major problem for this group seems to be that more and more people leave this group and join the minority

2. The minority goup seem to have a greater awareness that they are in a difficult situation.

      a. A majority of their former fellow Adventist are against them

      b. The chuch leaders are against them.

       c. Pastors are not allowed to preach to them, so they are dependent of lay preachers and leaders.

        d. They risk financial problems because they receive less tithe and than the large group, and no finaclial support from the General Conference.

       e. Even some people on truth-loving AT accuse them of herecy.



Perhaps some of you would adjust theses lists.

       d. They probably meet ridicule from other Christian groups, as well as worldly people for not following the majority

Johann,
You wrote: "You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you."
Is that it? Is that your response to my question as to whether the question is cultural or astronomical? Because, you see, that's what I asked you. So, now I'm supposed to decide for myself what it is that you believe? That's classic. I ask you a question and your response is no response but rather let me guess at it. Okay, here goes:
Obviously you feel that the Sabbath is determined by purely social constructs since you made no mention of astronomical dicta. I now hereby infer that all of your theology is experience-driven, much like a dateline that meanders and strays about according to the whims of the belief du jour.

Would you say that encapsulates what you believe about the Sabbath dateline?

OR

Did you catch yourself in a nonsequitur when trying to answer me? Figures....
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SDAminister

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2012, 04:16:49 PM »

Here is the issue:

1)  We as a denomination have taught that we are to keep the Sabbath which is the 7th day of the week and we believe that the Sabbath has been preserved since the time of Chirst ..........
......
....
4) In harmony with our traditional doctrine that says the Sabbath  is what has been the 7th day of week and that God has preserved since the  time of Christ, the majority of SDAs continued to keep the  7th day even though it was now called Sunday and became the day that most Protestants worshiped on.


Gregory,
Did the Sabbath exist before the time of Christ?
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2012, 05:22:52 PM »

YEs, the SAbbath exissted prior to Christ, as you well know.

I stand by my statement that we have taught that the sabbath has been preserved since the time of Christ.

NOTE:  I did not say that the Sabbath was lost prior to Christ.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2012, 05:27:01 PM »

In simplified terms, this is how the change occured in Samoa and in other places:

Bedtty goes to bed at 9 P.M. on Friday, July 6.  The next morning she awakens and it is Sunday and all of her Baptist friends are off to Chruch.

NOTE:  I do not know the day of the week that the dhange took place.  IT could have been on Wednesday, or any other day ofthe week.  Also, I do not know the calenadare date of the Sunday in my illustration.  It could have been July 7 or July 8.

I am just illustrating how it took place.

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christian

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2012, 12:21:52 AM »

In simplified terms, this is how the change occured in Samoa and in other places:

Bedtty goes to bed at 9 P.M. on Friday, July 6.  The next morning she awakens and it is Sunday and all of her Baptist friends are off to Chruch.

NOTE:  I do not know the day of the week that the dhange took place.  IT could have been on Wednesday, or any other day ofthe week.  Also, I do not know the calenadare date of the Sunday in my illustration.  It could have been July 7 or July 8.

I am just illustrating how it took place.
So, the point is? What would happen if tomorrow the seventh day received the name Sunday and everyone started going on Sunday? Well, praise the Lord for we would all be Sabbath Worshippers and that would be great. The fact that the name change occurred does not detract from the day since it would still be the 7Th day Sabbath. And if everyone kept the sabbath it would not impact the fact that God has a role for women and men which differ but are of equal importance in the plan of salvation. I stand by my initial contention that the topic started is done so to cause confusion and shake the foundation of some church members. However, as stated before God is not dead and the Sabbath is the Lords and he can preserve it. ----I spent 6 years in the military with nuclear bombs being transported and I can tell you that God is the one that prevents mishaps from happening. We have to understand that God is alive and we are not left to ourselves without Gods active intervention. 
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 12:51:40 AM »

Here is the issue:

1)  We as a denomination have taught that we are to keep the Sabbath which is the 7th day of the week and we believe that the Sabbath has been preserved since the time of Chirst ..........
......
....
4) In harmony with our traditional doctrine that says the Sabbath  is what has been the 7th day of week and that God has preserved since the  time of Christ, the majority of SDAs continued to keep the  7th day even though it was now called Sunday and became the day that most Protestants worshiped on.


Gregory,
Did the Sabbath exist before the time of Christ?
Believe it or not, but since the beginning of 2012 the "official" Adventist churches in Samoa gather on Sundays for Sabbath School and worship, the same day as other Christian churches worship. It is reported that a growing number of Adventists refuse to give up Sabbath worship and are gathering on Saturdays.

The problem has arisen due to a revision of the International Date Line. It is reported that the Division office supports the Sunday keepers, but that the General Conference president refuses any attempt to settle the dispute, claiming that since this a cultural/anthropological problem it has to be settled locally. Some do not understand how he can classify a Sabbath observance question as a cultural problem when he claims that the ordination of women is not a cultural, but a theological problem, which needs years of study before it can be settled.


Could you share with us the source material where Elder Wilson describes this situation as a cultural/anthropological problem?
Thanks!

A private source dealing with the local people

We normally don't use the words "It is reported....." when referring to a private communique'. That terminology ("It is reported") is generally used to refer to public reports.

Do you feel the issue is cultural or astronomical?
.....

I understand you have crossed that date line. Could you determine then if it was placed on the right astronomic line?
.....


I asked you first.

You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you.

here you have two groups:

1. The majority has no problems. They have the support of

     a. Their church leaders

     b.  They keep the same day, Sunday, together with most other churches in the area. And since they do that:

     c. They will neve be persecuted for refusing to keep Sunday.

     d. They have little financial problems because they have the support of all the pastors who get paind from tithe money.

     e. Seemingly there will not be any problems from the General Conference.

      f. It even appears like they are supported by several members of this forum.

      g. A major problem for this group seems to be that more and more people leave this group and join the minority

2. The minority goup seem to have a greater awareness that they are in a difficult situation.

      a. A majority of their former fellow Adventist are against them

      b. The chuch leaders are against them.

       c. Pastors are not allowed to preach to them, so they are dependent of lay preachers and leaders.

        d. They risk financial problems because they receive less tithe and than the large group, and no finaclial support from the General Conference.

       e. Even some people on truth-loving AT accuse them of herecy.



Perhaps some of you would adjust theses lists.

       d. They probably meet ridicule from other Christian groups, as well as worldly people for not following the majority

Johann,
You wrote: "You have crossed the line, I haven't, so it is up to you to decide, since it makes such a difference to you."
Is that it? Is that your response to my question as to whether the question is cultural or astronomical? Because, you see, that's what I asked you. So, now I'm supposed to decide for myself what it is that you believe? That's classic. I ask you a question and your response is no response but rather let me guess at it. Okay, here goes:
Obviously you feel that the Sabbath is determined by purely social constructs since you made no mention of astronomical dicta. I now hereby infer that all of your theology is experience-driven, much like a dateline that meanders and strays about according to the whims of the belief du jour.

Would you say that encapsulates what you believe about the Sabbath dateline?

OR

Did you catch yourself in a nonsequitur when trying to answer me? Figures....


Not at all.  I am only trying to present the problem as it applies to the Samoans to see if there is anyone here who has the right arguments to help them in their dilemma. Especially since it appears like the General Conference does not have a theological answer.





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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2012, 02:40:31 AM »

Christian:
Quote
So, the point is? What would happen if tomorrow the seventh day received the name Sunday and everyone started going on Sunday? Well, praise the Lord for we would all be Sabbath Worshippers and that would be great. The fact that the name change occurred does not detract from the day since it would still be the 7Th day Sabbath.

You are correct.  That is what has happened with these International Date Line issues.    The  majority in these areas has chosen to worship on the day called Sunday because they believe that the day called Sunday is actualy the 7th day of the week--the Sabbath.

The minority beleives that we ought to worship on the day prior to the day that other christians worship.

On the question of Sabbath observance, I find some interesting questions/issues raised by those who live in Alaska (for the U.S.).   the issue is what time does the Sababath beginS?  There are basicly three (3) views:

1) The Sabbath begins & ends at sundown, local time--the majority view world wide.
2) The Sabbath begins and ends at 6 P.M., local time--a minority view that was held by Adventists early in our history.
3) The Sabbath begins and ends, world-wide, at sundown in Jersulam, Israel--clearly a minority view.

There are some Adventists, who live near, or above the Artic Circle, who hold view # 2.     View # 3 is held by some who are more on the fringe of Adventism.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2012, 07:43:57 AM »

And, in my area, the Roman Catholic Chruch officially has Mass on Saturday that the Bishop has stated fulfills their obligation to go to Mass on  Sunday.

This may be true, but it is misleading, according to a book by a Catholic priest entitled What Else Would You Like to Know About the Church?

The obligation to go to the idolatrous sacrifice of the Mass on Sunday can be met by going on Saturday evening since supposedly that was the custom in the early church. I think this explanation must be a reference to the Saturday night service in Acts 20:7.

Thus, permitting the obligation to be met on Saturday only applies if one goes on Saturday evening, not on Saturday morning, according to that book. And thus what is being sanctioned is the ushering in of Sunday as the 6th day of the week draws to a close!

Incidentally, the book points out that the permitting of the obligation to be met on Saturday is an ecumenical move toward Seventh-day Adventists, but the book says that Rome cannot compromise with the Adventists and that's as far as they are going to go.

Pretty stubborn.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2012, 08:10:00 AM »

Bob, the Metro Area Catholic Masses that are conducted on Saturday have nothing to do with reaching out to Sabbath keepers.  In this area there are litterly dozens of such that are aconducted between 4 PM and 6 PM, which are well before Sundown on Saturday.  Yes, there are some conducted later than 6 PM and after Sundown.

Regardless of what you might read in some bookl, The appropriate Bishop can  authorize Catholice to fulfill their Sunday obligation by attending a Mass on Saturday.

That appropriate Bishop in the Metro Area has done so.  The reason is twokfold:
1) Roman Catholic priests are normall restricted in the number of Masses that they can celebrate on one day.
2) In the Metro Area there are more Catholics who want to attend Sunday Mass than the Chruch can accomodate.
3) Therefore, the appropriate Bishop has quthorized them to fulfill their obligation by attending Mass on Saturday.  Yes, that can be after Sundown on the Biblical Sunday.  Or it can be prior to Sundown on the Biblical Sabbath.

No, this is not the Roman Catholic Church moving away from Sunday to Sabbath observance.

Also note:  In the strictest sense, the Roman Catholic obligation to attend Mass is once a Year,  at Easter time.

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Bob Pickle

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2012, 11:46:39 AM »

I think, Gregory, that you have in part confirmed what I said. Between 4 and 6 pm on Saturday would be ushering in Sunday regardless of the time of year.
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2012, 06:40:12 AM »

I understand  the GC Adventist Research Institute came to the conclusion after years of study that Sunday would be the correct day of worship for the local 9.000 Adventists there in Samoa because that was the day previously called Saturday on the old calendar.

A minority dissident group insists on keeping Sabbath according to the new calendar to show they are not keeping the Roman Catholic Sunday. Some of them claim that Samoan churches in the United States and Australia and New Zealand are among their supporters.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2012, 07:33:17 AM »

I believe that the issue in Samoa is a recent one due to the fact that the change in the Date Line, as it affected Samoa, was a recent one.

For other islands located along the Date Line, there change was decades ago and the issue was well discussed then.  Again, as I recall, see:  Odom, Robert L.  "The Lord's Day on a Round World."


I do not think that it took years of study to come to that conclusion.  The issue is quite straight forward:
1) Does the Biblical command ask us to keep the Sabbath on the 7th day of the week.

or

2) Does the Biblical command ask us to keep the Sabbath on the day prior to the day that most Protestants keep.

That is the issue.  In the islands along the Date Line where this is an issue there was a day that throughout civilized time had been called (in English) Saturday.  Then a change was made and that day had its name changed (in English) to Sunday.  So, since the day called Sunday (in English) is now the 7th day of the weekly cycle, do we continue to keep that day, or do we move to the day now called Saturday, which used to be called (in English) Friday?

« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 07:39:06 AM by Gregory »
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Murcielago

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2012, 03:17:34 PM »

A rose by any other name is still a rose.
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2012, 12:58:05 PM »

Hi, I'm rather new on this forum and had an interesting experience.

There is a test question when a person registers.
What day is the bible Sabbath?
I answered -- "the seventh day"
Wrong answer flashes in red letters.
I typed "Saturday" -- RIGHT ANSWER!

You see -- I think THEY were right. When we start saying "seventh day" we are moving into the general interpretation we hear all the time.  But when we say "Saturday" it is specified which seventh day is the Sabbath.


Was there really a calendar change in Samoa?

No -  it's the same as before!  July 30, 2012 is still Monday.  As it is everywhere else.

Were the days renamed?

No -- they still have the same names as before.

So what changed?

Well think of it this way.   
When a person travels from America to Australia, they cross the dateline.
A Pastor may fly from America to Australia on Thursday, and GO TO CHURCH the very next day which is Saturday! 
In the same way Samoa crossed the dateline on Thursday, midnight Dec. 30, so the very next day was Saturday!

You won't find 180th longitude anywhere in scripture.  It is only a man made estimate and was not in existance prior to 1884.  And even in 1884 no "law" was made concerning 180 longitude as the dateline.   Greenwich England was chosen as the Prime Meridian while the "dateline" was left to be determined by the governments of the Islands in the Pacific.

I do NOT understand the justification given for Seventh-day Adventists to worship on Sunday, my sympathies are totally with our Samoan brothers and sisters who have found themselves out of favor with the Regional  Seventh-day Adventist Church for keeping Sabbath/Saturday along with their New Zealand and Australian brethren.

 
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2012, 01:16:36 PM »

The 4th Commandment tells us that the Sabbath is the 7th Day.  It does not say Saturday.

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