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Author Topic: The Samoan Sabbath Problem  (Read 42199 times)

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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2012, 01:59:35 PM »

Quote by Gregory:  The 4th Commandment tells us that the Sabbath is the 7th Day.  It does not say Saturday.


So does that mean I can keep every Monday since they are all seven days apart?
Or how about every Friday?


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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2012, 02:05:32 PM »

When did the Christian world celebrate Easter Resurrection Day?
Wasn't it on Sunday, April 8?  Yes, even in Samoa!

Doesn't scripture tell us that Christ rested on the Sabbath, and early on the first day of the week He arose?
He rested on Sabbath, (the seventh day) and rose on Sunday (the first day).

Sunday is the known as the "resurrection day" all around the world, even in Samoa!

The seventh-day Sabbath is the day BEFORE Sunday.



You see -- the language being used is miss leading.
Was there really a calendar change in Samoa?

No -  it's the same as before! The calendar did not change.    July 30, 2012 is still Monday.  As it is everywhere else.

Were the days renamed?

No -- they still have the same names as before.
And Adventists in Samoa have accepted that they are now the first to welcome every new day  (instead of the last)  on the round earth -- why not accept that for the seventh-day Sabbath which is known in the english language as "Saturday".
   
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 02:10:36 PM by Ulicia »
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Artiste

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2012, 02:17:57 PM »

Welcome to the Advent Talk forum, Ulicia, and thanks for your comments on the seventh-day Sabbath.
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2012, 03:03:30 PM »

Thank-you for the welcome!

I've become quite interested in this situation in Samoa over the last few months.

The problem all started just over 100 years ago with the Tonga islands.
Prior to 1884 the Islands simply accepted the week which was brought to them by the missionaries.
Since all the first missionaries (Methodists and London Missionary Society) arrived by traveling via Australia, they were all in line with Australia as to what day it was.

When the first adventist visitors arrived they of course were on the American (tail end of each day) and they thought everyone on the Islands were keeping the right day but calling it "sunday".  BUT NO -- those Methodist and London Missionary Society and Catholic missionaries were NOT keeping the "right" Sabbath.  They were keeping Sunday!

The confusion mounted as it was in October of 1884 that Greenwich England was declared the "Prime Meridian" by an International conference in Washington DC, even though no official 180th meridian dateline was established.   Yet, a quick calculation showed that the 180th longitude is half way around the world from Greenwich England.   So pressure was on to make it the dateline.   
In 1892 Samoa accepted the American pressure and moved into the western hemisphere.  (The first Adventist Missionaries arrived shortly after that).
Tonga however, resisted, they refused to change and remained in the eastern hemisphere.   Now we can excuse the early Adventists (though I still think it was a big mistake) who probably thought Tonga would change just as Samoa had done,  so they worshipped on Sunday -- thinking it would soon be acknowledged as Saturday.

But Tonga decided to stay right where they were -- in line with New Zealand and Australia.   At that point (in my opinion) Adventists should have realized their mistake.

But now Tonga is taken as a precedent as if the 180th were a divinely ordained creation event.  it's not!  It's a man made estimate -- and nothing more.   But since then as Island governments realize they really belong with the Australia/New Zealand group, and have changed back to being the "start of each new day" rather than the "tail of each day", Adventist leadership in these areas have instituted SUNDAY WORSHIP!   

An interesting article shows the General Conference has NEVER endorsed Sunday worship in these Islands.

No Endorsement Given To Samoa Church for Sunday Worship


« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 03:06:42 PM by Ulicia »
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Artiste

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2012, 03:22:34 PM »

I agree it's a confusing situation.
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2012, 03:34:22 PM »

Actually it's quite simple.

When EGW went to Australia, she didn't say
"Oh no, it's only six days since my last Sabbath, I can't keep Saturday as the Sabbath."
No, she kept the seventh day as reckoned in Australia.

Samoa's seventh day lines up with New Zealand and Australia -- and it's still called Saturday.


EGW's counsel, while not directly addressed to Tonga, still holds the principle
to be followed. Some zealous person was teaching the Biblical dateline was in Arminea and thus a lot of people were keeping the wrong day and should be keeping Sunday as it was the "real" seventh day.

She wrote:

"We are not to give the least credence to the day line theory. It is a snare of
Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly
impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday,
and God's remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make
all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know
where we stand. . . . {3SM 318.4}


So any "dateline theory" that claims the people are all right in keeping Sunday
and God's remnant people are all wrong for observing the Sabbath on Saturday, is
a snare of Satan.

But that is exactly what took place in Tonga!
A "dateline theory" was taught that said everyone was keeping the right day on
Sunday.

And now in Samoa the same thing is happening
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Artiste

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2012, 03:47:34 PM »

Was Ellen White's comment about the "day line theory" referring to the same thing as the "dateline theory"?
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2012, 09:15:05 PM »

Was Ellen White's comment about the "day line theory" referring to the same thing as the "dateline theory"?

That depends on what a person understands as THE "dateline theory".

It's a scientific fact that somewhere between the western coast of America and the eastern coast of Asia each new day begins and ends thus causing a person to either add a day or subtract a day depending which way they are traveling across the pacific.
The "theory" part comes from trying to determine exactly where that point is.

But for a simple answer -- yes, Adventist pioneers seemed to use the word "dayline" in the same way as we understand the term "dateline".

The "dateline theory" that was causing confusion among some in Adventism at the beginning of the 20th century was this:

The Eden Day-Line Theory (Source The Bible Echo, January 28, 1901)
"The theory is that where Eden was, that marks the place of the true day-line. Every new day should begin there; westward from this point the reckoning should be twenty-four hours in advance of that immediately eastward."

If this were actually true, it would mean that from the beginning of the human race there would have been a day difference between those living immediately east of Eden and those living immediately west of Eden.   Yet we read of no such thing in scripture or history.   What's even worse the theorists were advocating that all Adventists living east of the Middle East (Russia, China, India, Australia, Japan etc) should worship on Sunday since the standard time reckoning had placed them on the wrong side of the dateline.

So yes, it was very similar to the situation in Tonga and Samoa, though it was on a much BIGGER scale.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2012, 05:09:42 AM »

When I was in college I ran into Evangeline Widen who had a different sort of theory. She taught that everyone everywhere should keep the Sabbath from 6pm to 6pm, Jerusalem time. No matter who she was staying with, as soon as 6pm Jerusalem time came, she'd go do her laundry with the excuse that she didn't have many clothes, which was kind of rude to her Adventist hosts. But doing her laundry was a way that she made her point each week, sort of imposing her standard upon those she stayed with.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2012, 06:07:11 AM »

The various commenets made here reflect the diversity that exists within the SDA Church in regard to the actiual time to kep the Sabbath.

When I first moved to Colorado, I attended a church that had one active family that kept the Sabbath from 6 PM to 6 PM.

There are people who live above or near the Artic  Circle who keep it from 6 PM to 6 PM. 

Yes, some keep it by an astronomical sunrise and sunset which ends up with 24 hours of darkness and 24 hours of light on some days.  This also  ends up with sundown and sun rise at noon & midnight on some days.  Imagine keeping the Sabbath f rom Noon to Noon.

There are some who advocate keeping it by Jersulam time.

The issue is that each new day has to begin somewhere.    Humans has established that point as the so-called International Date Line.  The problems then arose when in certain Pacific Islands the Date Line did not follow a straight line.  It curved inward (outward to some).

Check out the curvature of the IDL on a map of the world.  This may help to understand.

The 4th Commandment tells us to keep the 7th day--not a 7th day, but  the 7th day.  The history of the Jewish peole can trace that 7th day from the time of Christ to the present.  So, we should be clear as to what is the 7th day as understood in the  time of Christ.


The problem occurs n that due to the curvature of the International Date Line,  that 7th day is a few of the Pacific Islands is now called Sunday.   It is no longer called Saturday (in English).

So, here we have it.  Honest people who want to follow the Lord have differign understandings.  They keep theSabbath with different beginnings and endings.  I say, let the Lord lead and God will honor their attempts to do what God has asked them to do.
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2012, 06:48:10 AM »

When I was in college I ran into Evangeline Widen who had a different sort of theory. She taught that everyone everywhere should keep the Sabbath from 6pm to 6pm, Jerusalem time. No matter who she was staying with, as soon as 6pm Jerusalem time came, she'd go do her laundry with the excuse that she didn't have many clothes, which was kind of rude to her Adventist hosts. But doing her laundry was a way that she made her point each week, sort of imposing her standard upon those she stayed with.

This idea is not scriptural.  The time when Sabbath begins was established on a scriptural bases and diversity only shows that people are setting up their own times instead of God's time.

The Bible directs that, "from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbaths" (Lev. 23:32); and then defines the evening to be at the setting of the sun (Mark 1:32)

The Bible day is measured from evening to evening-sundown to sundown; this is supported by Jewish history, while the days as named are measured from midnight to midnight. Therefore strictly and technically speaking the seventh day begins Friday evening at sunset and ends Saturday evening at sunset.

There is no confusion as to which day is the seventh-day Sabbath.

The issue in Samoa is not a "personal" issue.  (I agree that individuals should have freedom to worship as conscience directs--that's freedom of religion) But this is an issue of the regional Seventh-day Adventist Church leadership in a verily large area in this world imposing Sunday worship.
Whether the dateline is straight or zig zags through the Pacific is not the issue.   There is no Biblical proof whatsoever that England is the center of God's earth  (Prime Meridian) thus making the 180th a dateline. None what-so-ever!

There is no excuse for Seventh-day Adventists to impose Sunday worship in these Islands.


« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 06:54:13 AM by Ulicia »
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Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2012, 07:59:25 AM »

Our former president,, Jan Paulsen, came from North Norway. I recall him telling that in mid winter they'd take working clothes along to church, and if the Sabbath Sermon lasted too long they'd have to leave for work before it was finished. There they kept Sabbath in winter from the time the sun would have been at the lowest point, if it had been visible, around Friday noon to Saturday noon. I summer it would be form midnight to midnight, just like the calender.
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2012, 08:06:48 AM »

Ulicia, you are correct in much of what you say.

Your error comes in your understanding what what the change in the IDL did.  When that change took place, the day that previously had been named Saturday (English) now was named Sunday (English).

Again, the 4th Commandment does not say "a 7th day."  It says "the 7th day."  By that reconning, in the areas under consideration, that 7th day is now named Sunday (English).
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Gregory

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2012, 08:11:13 AM »

Ulicia:  I agree with your comments as to the Sabbath beginnig at even (sundown).  On the assumption that you believe that it is sundown local time, I would agree with you.

However, as you have clearly stated, the IDL is of human origin.  It is on that basis that some will tell you that the Sabbath begins at sundown in Jersulam and others will say at 6  PM, which would be measusred at the equator.

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Bob Pickle

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2012, 08:19:06 AM »

When I was in college I ran into Evangeline Widen who had a different sort of theory. She taught that everyone everywhere should keep the Sabbath from 6pm to 6pm, Jerusalem time. No matter who she was staying with, as soon as 6pm Jerusalem time came, she'd go do her laundry with the excuse that she didn't have many clothes, which was kind of rude to her Adventist hosts. But doing her laundry was a way that she made her point each week, sort of imposing her standard upon those she stayed with.

This idea is not scriptural.

Correct.

The various commenets made here reflect the diversity that exists within the SDA Church in regard to the actiual time to kep the Sabbath.

...

So, here we have it.  Honest people who want to follow the Lord have differign understandings.

It's not that simple, I don't think. Evangeline was purposely being insensitive to the convictions of those who provided her a place to stay. And when we discussed the pretty much single text that she based her false theory upon, she was unable to show from the Bible that the text really meant what she said it meant. (The details are murky this many years later.)

Your error comes in your understanding what what the change in the IDL did.  When that change took place, the day that previously had been named Saturday (English) now was named Sunday (English).

Again, the 4th Commandment does not say "a 7th day."  It says "the 7th day."  By that reconning, in the areas under consideration, that 7th day is now named Sunday (English).

Whether or not she made an error depends on how one defines what the 7th day is. Have you defined it in such a definitive way that it can truly be said that Ulicia erred?

I think J. N. Andrews' explanation is pretty helpful. God appointed the sun to rule the day. It is the sun that determines which day is which. The only question to deal with is what about where the beginning and the ending of each day meets.
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