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Author Topic: The Samoan Sabbath Problem  (Read 84960 times)

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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #165 on: August 21, 2012, 08:47:00 PM »

Concerning the EGW quotes:

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Between Samoa and Auckland we crossed the day-line, and for the first time in our lives we had a week of six days. Tuesday, December 1, was dropped from our reckoning, and we passed from Monday to Wednesday."  {BEcho, January 1, 1892 par. 14}

This is an account of a journey, it is not a prophetic message.
Since they were traveling by ship, they would most likely follow the nautical date line.  It was already largely observed in 1892 though  it  became standard for ships in 1917  at the Anglo-French Conference on Time-keeping at Sea, which recommended that all ships, both military and civilian, adopt hourly standard time zones on the high seas.
The international dateline is not the same as the nautical date line.   The international time zones as well as the international dateline are adjusted by the countries affected by them, only rarely do they actually follow the nautical longitude lines.


So the ship EGW was sailing in crossed the dateline and she experienced a six day week.   What day did she keep as the Sabbath after experiencing a six day week?

Notice below that Sabbath and Sunday are different (not the same) days.

Quote
" Our camp meeting at Adelaide, South Australia, was a success. There was a much larger interest than we had at Armadale, a year ago. You know we had an excellent interest in that place. Sabbath and Sundays the crowd was much larger at Adelaide than at Armadale." 9MR 351


There are other statements by Ellen White showing that she didn't stick to a strict 7 day count after losing one day crossing the dateline and thus started keeping Sunday, NO she accepted the Sabbath as it came to Australia almost a whole day earlier than back in California.
 
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #166 on: August 21, 2012, 09:01:56 PM »

Quote
Is it possible that so much importance can be clustered about those who observe the Sabbath, and yet no one can tell when the Sabbath comes? Then where is the people who bear the badge or the sign of God? What is the sign?  The Seventh-day Sabbath, which the Lord blessed and sanctified, and pronounced holy, with great penalties for its violation. {3MR 254.2}
The seventh-day Sabbath is in no uncertainty. It is God’s memorial of His work of Creation. It is set up as a Heaven-given memorial, to be observed as a sign of obedience. God wrote the whole law with His finger on two tables of stone. . . .  {3MR 255.1}
Now, my sister, although I am at present sick, I write sitting up in bed to tell you that we are not to give the least credence to the day-line theory. It is a snare of Satan brought in by his own agents to confuse minds. You see how utterly impossible for this thing to be, that the world is all right observing Sunday, and God’s remnant people are all wrong. This theory of the day line would make all our history for the past fifty-five years a complete fallacy. But we know where we stand. . . .   {3MR 255.2}
My sister, let not your faith fail. We are to stand fast by our colors, the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. All those who hold the beginning of their confidence firm unto the end will keep the seventh-day Sabbath, which comes to us as marked by the sun. The fallacy of the day line is a trap of Satan to discourage. I know what I am speaking about. Have faith in God. Shine where you are, as a living stone in God’s building.  {3MR 255.3}  Aug. 2, 1900.

What was happening around 1900 to cause EGW to write the above?

Here's an article written a few months later:

Quote
"The theory is that where Eden was, that marks the place of the true day-line. Every new day should begin there; westward from this point the reckoning should be twenty-four hours in advance of that immediately eastward. In other words, if one of Adam’s sons had taken up his home one mile west of Eden, and another taken his up one mile east, they would needed to have reckoned themselves as living in different days, though living only about two miles apart....

The Eden day-line theory, therefore, is as wide of the mark as it possibly can be. It has neither Bible, common-sense, nor historic facts to support it. It is only one more of the many other like modern delusions and winds of doctrines brought in to evade the cross of keeping the true seventh day Sabbath, to confuse the minds of the simple, and to nullify God’s message for this time. It bears no stamp of truth or divinity about it. It teaches that in all the countries east of Palestine over to the middle of the Pacific Ocean, the people are wrong in their reckoning of the days of the week; that they are one day ahead of time; that what they call Sunday is in reality the seventh day Sabbath, and that therefore the people in India, China, Siberia, the East Indies, Japan, New Guinea, New Caledonia, Australia, Tasmania, New Zealand, and many of the islands of the Pacific should keep Sunday as the true seventh day! The people of all these countries constitute about one half the population of the globe. The Sabbath of the Lord, according to the Bible, is the seal of God; the false Sabbath is the mark of apostasy. If, however, what is called Sunday in these countries is the true Sabbath and seal of God, what, pray tell, is the mark of apostasy? Any doctrine which nullifies to half of the world the very pith and point of the last message God has for the entire world, cannot be of God. It deserves to be consigned to the silent shades of oblivion, as unworthy the serious consideration of any sane, thinking man.
by W. A. COLCORD (The Bible Echo, January 28, 1901)

What we see here is an endevour to do on a large scale, what has been successfully done in Samoa on a small scale.

Insist that the true  dateline is not in the Pacific Ocean where it is officially  located, but insist the true dateline is clear over in middle east and tell everyone living east of it, that's everyone from Iran to Hawaii that they need to worship on Sunday if they wish to worship on the right day.
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Murcielago

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #167 on: August 21, 2012, 09:46:20 PM »

The seventh-day Sabbath is the first part of our name, our most distinguishing marks, and one of our most core doctrines. I assume that the GC has therefor taken a heavy hand in this matter, and dealt decisively with any conference, union, or division that has allowed, or encouraged this most egregious departure from the church. The Bible, the SOP, and the GC in session all completely affirm this as an essential part of being a member or entity in the SDA church. Has Wilson taken some GC Vice Presidents and gone over there to deal with this? An entire country of SDA churches choosing to keep Sunday in direct rebellion to the GC is beyond anything I've ever heard of in this church. 
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Bob Pickle

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #168 on: August 22, 2012, 05:20:59 AM »

Ulicia, those last quotes you gave would seem to have a bearing on the question of the lunar Sabbath theory too.
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #169 on: August 22, 2012, 02:48:01 PM »

How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?

Johann

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #170 on: August 22, 2012, 02:53:02 PM »

How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?

Long before human rules and standards?
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #171 on: August 22, 2012, 02:56:08 PM »

How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?

Long before human rules and standards?

Both.  Before then and after then.

Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #172 on: August 22, 2012, 07:14:07 PM »

How was the seventh-day determined all around the world prior to the human devising and setting up of this so-called day/date line?

Were people traveling around the world  prior to 1519 when Magellan's crew made the first such journey recorded in our history books?   There is no record of it in the A.D. years.  Prior to Columbus landing in America a lot of Europeans thought ships would fall off the edge of the world if they sailed too far from the European/Asian landmass.

The day started in the  furtherest eastern landmass of Asia, traveled west over Asia and Europe.

Since the seventh-day Sabbath can be traced back to Christ who was in the tomb on the seventh-day Sabbath and rose on the first day, Sunday, it was carried both east and west by the apostles (as well as the Jews prior to the apostles).
As long as the gospel message was contained on the Asian/European/African landmass, there was no need to adjust for a dateline.


As long as European explorers sailed west when they went to the America's, or east around Africa when they sailed to Asia, they still didn't need or know of a dateline.

So yes, people simply determined what day it was by the rising and setting of the sun.

However, to "assume" that a 'dayline" is simply a "human invention", is just plain ignoring what obviously  takes place on a round world.   We've explained it a dozen times already.   Yet we must be clear -- there is NO question as to what day it is in on any of the continents.

We have enough prophetic evidence to know what day is the Sabbath on all the continents.
We know that to sail from America to Australia results in a "six day week", and to sail back to America results in an "eight day week".   Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem  east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change.  And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.   
 
That a day line exists was discovered when Ferdinand Magellan sailed around the world.   And it was confirmed by other later sailors.

Prior to Magellan, explorers had "discovered" that another great ocean lay west of the America's. Europeans (who were after the spices and goods of Asia) started reasoning correctly that this great ocean reached Asia and if they sailed west to America and continued west across the second ocean then they could get to Asia.

 Magellan decided to try it!  He left Spain in 1519, reached America, sailed through the Straits of Magellan into the Pacific Ocean thinking it was just a short way to Asia. WRONG, it took three months to cross the Pacific. Magellan, himself never made it home, but a few of his crew did, being the first recorded to sail around the world.

But from that time on it became known that sailing across the Pacific cased the sailors to either lose or gain a day, depending on which way they travelled.   

For the next 300 or so years there was no official dateline. Alaska, owned by Russia, was aligned with Russian time till America bought it.
The Philippeans, for a short time,  were aligned with Mexico (America) time because of Spanish trade from Mexico, but moved back  to eastern time in 1844.
The rest of the Southern Pacific Islands were all pretty well  aligned with Australian time prior to 1884.

October, 1884

That is the date the international Meridian Conference took place in Washington D.C.

Greenwich England was chosen as the Prime Meridian (longitude 0) From Greenwich the longitudes are marked by degrees both east and west. A globe has 360 degrees, which makes 180th longitude exactly opposite to the prime Meridian. This became the nautical date line.  The nautical date line, is not the same as the International Date Line.  One is determined by mathematics, the other is determined by countries.

The later 1800's were an era of colonization with heavy american, English and German influence in the Pacific Islands, they one by one aligned themselves with the nautical date line.  BUT not Tonga, Tonga had a strong enough government to resist the pressure and refused to change thus  continuing to count their days according to eastern time (where all these Islands had been prior to 1884)   
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #173 on: August 22, 2012, 07:36:20 PM »

The issue here isn't the absolute location of the dateline.
The issue is Sabbath or Sunday.

Adventists on these  Islands are now observing SUNDAY as the Sabbath by decree of the regional Seventh day Adventist church headquarters.

Last Sabbath was August 18,
Did the regular Adventists in Tonga and Somoa worship and rest on August 18, 2012?
No -- they went to church August 19, Sunday, along with every other Protestant and Catholic around the world.
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #174 on: August 23, 2012, 03:59:46 AM »

Quote from: Ulicia
Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem  east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change.  And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.   
As I find this confusing, I need to do a little bit of research regarding this thought.

Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #175 on: August 23, 2012, 10:46:23 PM »

Quote from: Ulicia
Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem  east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change.  And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.   
As I find this confusing, I need to do a little bit of research regarding this thought.

The change happens ONLY when one crosses the dateline.
Traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia one does not cross the dateline
Traveling from Jerusalem west to America one does not cross the dateline.
But if one travels from Jerusalem east to Australia and continues to travel from Australia east to America they cross the dateline and gain a day.
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #176 on: September 01, 2012, 02:33:56 PM »

The Sabbath keepers in Samoa had another great Sabbath which encouraged the scattered groups from the various Islands.   Renting a hall, (they are not allowed to use SDA church facilities) about 400 Sabbath keepers from the various Islands came together for a "youth rally" or "youth camp"

These events (this is the second time they arranged to all meet together) are always a great encouragement to the Sabbath Keepers for many are scattered in tiny groups all over the Islands.   When they come together it helps them feel like they belong once again.  In spite of the hardships they face they are still seeking to meet the needs of their youth!

May God continue to bless and strengthen them in their stand for Him!
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #177 on: September 01, 2012, 03:11:08 PM »

Quote from: Ulicia
Yet we also know that when traveling from Jerusalem  east to Australia, the seven day week doesn't change.  And when traveling from jerusalem west to America, the seven day week doesn't change.   
As I find this confusing, I need to do a little bit of research regarding this thought.

The change happens ONLY when one crosses the dateline.
Traveling from Jerusalem east to Australia one does not cross the dateline
Traveling from Jerusalem west to America one does not cross the dateline.
But if one travels from Jerusalem east to Australia and continues to travel from Australia east to America they cross the dateline and gain a day.
Are you, therefore, saying that Jerusalem and Australia are on the same side of the dateline?
Are you, therefore, also saying that Jerusalem and America are also on the same side of the dateline?

Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #178 on: September 01, 2012, 05:53:21 PM »

Take your map and lay it out flat (as it is in most books)
On the left side you have the Americas, in the middle you have Europe and Africa, on the right you have Asia, Australia and the Islands.



This is how most "flat" maps are drawn.   There is no dateline on these flat maps BECAUSE the dateline is  on the edge.
You can travel across the whole face of this map without crossing the dateline.
From Jerusalem you can travel east to Australia without crossing the dateline
From Jerusalem you can travel west to America without crossing the dateline.

But if you travel from jerusalem east to Australia and then continue (over the edge) across the Pacific Ocean to America you cross the dateline.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:11:01 PM by Dedication »
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Dedication

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Re: The Samoan Sabbath Problem
« Reply #179 on: September 01, 2012, 06:08:13 PM »

Now look at the time zones on that flat map.
All 24 hours represented on that map!
The day starts at the right edge and ends on the left edge.
So, while a new day is just beginning in Australia, the Old day is still moving across the rest of the planet.  Over in Alaska the Old Day still has 23 hours to it.
The right edge is therefore one day ahead of the left edge.

But the world isn't flat.  It is a globe.
So we paste the two edges together and have a DATELINE.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 07:29:53 PM by Dedication »
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