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Author Topic: Ellen White and Authority for Women  (Read 19120 times)

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Murcielago

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Ellen White and Authority for Women
« on: August 03, 2012, 10:58:31 PM »

I am fully aware that there are straws to split and points to be made that Ellen White had/has no authority in the SDA church, but the reality is very different. She is regularly cited as the final authority in Adventism, she is considered by most Adventists as the defacto founder and author of our church and it's doctrines, she is cited as the final authority in the Church Manual along with the Bible... It seems very inconsistent to hold a woman as the final spiritual authority in the SDA church, yet deny women ordination to authority in the lowest field on the totem pole: the congregation, simply because they are women. This issue is a white elephant in the room and must be addressed in a realistic manner. Denying the authority of Ellen White is burying one's head in the sand. It is fact. It now remains for those who respect her authority but oppose WO, to avoid playing Peter in denying their faith in her, and demonstrate that they are not being inconsistent.
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Johann

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2012, 02:20:56 AM »

I am fully aware that there are straws to split and points to be made that Ellen White had/has no authority in the SDA church, but the reality is very different. She is regularly cited as the final authority in Adventism, she is considered by most Adventists as the defacto founder and author of our church and it's doctrines, she is cited as the final authority in the Church Manual along with the Bible... It seems very inconsistent to hold a woman as the final spiritual authority in the SDA church, yet deny women ordination to authority in the lowest field on the totem pole: the congregation, simply because they are women. This issue is a white elephant in the room and must be addressed in a realistic manner. Denying the authority of Ellen White is burying one's head in the sand. It is fact. It now remains for those who respect her authority but oppose WO, to avoid playing Peter in denying their faith in her, and demonstrate that they are not being inconsistent.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2012, 05:56:52 AM »

So the question is how can Ellen White have authority if Paul said that women cannot usurp authority over men? I think it has to do with what the word "authority" means. I take what Paul said to have to do with administrative authority, not prophetic authority.

The issue of the ordination of women has to do with what the woman is being ordained to do, not the ordination itself. Should women be set apart for the work of organizing churches, uniting churches, ordaining elders and deacons, and, presumably, baptizing anywhere without having to first get permission?
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Johann

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2012, 06:50:52 AM »

So the question is how can Ellen White have authority if Paul said that women cannot usurp authority over men? I think it has to do with what the word "authority" means. I take what Paul said to have to do with administrative authority, not prophetic authority.

The issue of the ordination of women has to do with what the woman is being ordained to do, not the ordination itself. Should women be set apart for the work of organizing churches, uniting churches, ordaining elders and deacons, and, presumably, baptizing anywhere without having to first get permission?
So, you do not agree with Uriah Smith?
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Gregory

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2012, 08:15:02 AM »

Quote
The issue of the ordination of women has to do with what the woman is being ordained to do, not the ordination itself. Should women be set apart for the work of organizing churches, uniting churches, ordaining elders and deacons, and, presumably, baptizing anywhere without having to first get permission?

Yes.  And the ultimate authority for the above must be Biblical.  I have been searching for the verse that supports the above and unable to locate it.  Perhaps some of you can help me.  Surely, it must read somewhat like this:

Quote
Bretheren, in the last days evil men and seducers will arise who willl attempt to destroy the unity that should exist among God's people and destroy the order that God has established for His Chruch.

In the name of fairness, they will seek to elevate women to a spiritual role that will allow them to baptize without consulting God's established leadership in His church.  They will seek to organize on their own congregations where the spiritually weak will come to seek spiritual nurture from those whom God has regelated to a secondary role.  They will lay hands upon those whom God has not blessed with the gift of spiritual leadership.

The time will come where in a land far away thousands will flock to their congregations to seek spiritual nurture.  The spiritually weak will look to those thousands as evidence that I have given their leaders a role in spiritual leadership.  They are decived.

Back at Eden, when the woman whom I had created rejected my leadership, I placed her under the headship and rule of males where were to instruct her in the way of righteousness.  Those females who seek spiritual leaderslhilp  are not following my plan.  They must be rejected.  Their continued rebellion will lead to disunity in my church which will bring about a revealing who are wheat and who are tares.

In the end, it will be seen by all that I am in charge and those who are truely following me will spend eternity with me.   

I just cannot seem to locate the above passsage.  Please help me to find the Biblical passage that supportts your statement in regard to authority.
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Murcielago

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2012, 10:05:49 AM »

So the question is how can Ellen White have authority if Paul said that women cannot usurp authority over men? I think it has to do with what the word "authority" means. I take what Paul said to have to do with administrative authority, not prophetic authority.

The issue of the ordination of women has to do with what the woman is being ordained to do, not the ordination itself. Should women be set apart for the work of organizing churches, uniting churches, ordaining elders and deacons, and, presumably, baptizing anywhere without having to first get permission?
No, the question is how can a woman have authority over the entire church, as EGW does, yet the men who cite her authority refuse to let other women have a position of very small authority? And she is cited as an equal authority with the Bible in establishing the structure and administration of our church in the church manual. This inconsistency has to be dealt with before the many quotes and theological arguments can be seen as credible.
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Artiste

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2012, 04:04:06 PM »

I am fully aware that there are straws to split and points to be made that Ellen White had/has no authority in the SDA church, but the reality is very different. She is regularly cited as the final authority in Adventism, she is considered by most Adventists as the defacto founder and author of our church and it's doctrines, she is cited as the final authority in the Church Manual along with the Bible... It seems very inconsistent to hold a woman as the final spiritual authority in the SDA church, yet deny women ordination to authority in the lowest field on the totem pole: the congregation, simply because they are women. This issue is a white elephant in the room and must be addressed in a realistic manner. Denying the authority of Ellen White is burying one's head in the sand. It is fact. It now remains for those who respect her authority but oppose WO, to avoid playing Peter in denying their faith in her, and demonstrate that they are not being inconsistent.

Mucielago, I'm not sure what experience you might have had with the Seventh-day Adventist church that led you to the belief that "she is considered by most Adventists as the defacto founder and author of our church and it's doctrines", referring to Ellen White.
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SDAminister

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2012, 04:21:05 PM »

So the question is how can Ellen White have authority if Paul said that women cannot usurp authority over men? I think it has to do with what the word "authority" means. I take what Paul said to have to do with administrative authority, not prophetic authority.

The issue of the ordination of women has to do with what the woman is being ordained to do, not the ordination itself. Should women be set apart for the work of organizing churches, uniting churches, ordaining elders and deacons, and, presumably, baptizing anywhere without having to first get permission?
No, the question is how can a woman have authority over the entire church, as EGW does, yet the men who cite her authority refuse to let other women have a position of very small authority? And she is cited as an equal authority with the Bible in establishing the structure and administration of our church in the church manual. This inconsistency has to be dealt with before the many quotes and theological arguments can be seen as credible.

It's the same answer as to how a man could be king of a whole nation, and yet be excluded from doing certain things in that very nation.

 (KJV)2 Chronicles 26:18
And they withstood Uzziah the king, and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the Lord , but to the priests the sons of Aaron, that are consecrated to burn incense: go out of the sanctuary; for thou hast trespassed; neither shall it be for thine honour from the Lord God.
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Murcielago

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2012, 04:25:56 PM »

I am fully aware that there are straws to split and points to be made that Ellen White had/has no authority in the SDA church, but the reality is very different. She is regularly cited as the final authority in Adventism, she is considered by most Adventists as the defacto founder and author of our church and it's doctrines, she is cited as the final authority in the Church Manual along with the Bible... It seems very inconsistent to hold a woman as the final spiritual authority in the SDA church, yet deny women ordination to authority in the lowest field on the totem pole: the congregation, simply because they are women. This issue is a white elephant in the room and must be addressed in a realistic manner. Denying the authority of Ellen White is burying one's head in the sand. It is fact. It now remains for those who respect her authority but oppose WO, to avoid playing Peter in denying their faith in her, and demonstrate that they are not being inconsistent.

Mucielago, I'm not sure what experience you might have had with the Seventh-day Adventist church that led you to the belief that "she is considered by most Adventists as the defacto founder and author of our church and it's doctrines", referring to Ellen White.
My experience in the church is quite extensive, but that is not the point. I've heard the few arguments that she isn't, and they have no relevance to reality. So getting in with it, how is the inconsistency explained? Either a woman can be an authority or not. We can't have it both ways. And if not, then we have to consider walking away from EGW as an authority.
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Murcielago

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2012, 04:33:24 PM »

So the question is how can Ellen White have authority if Paul said that women cannot usurp authority over men? I think it has to do with what the word "authority" means. I take what Paul said to have to do with administrative authority, not prophetic authority.

The issue of the ordination of women has to do with what the woman is being ordained to do, not the ordination itself. Should women be set apart for the work of organizing churches, uniting churches, ordaining elders and deacons, and, presumably, baptizing anywhere without having to first get permission?
No, the question is how can a woman have authority over the entire church, as EGW does, yet the men who cite her authority refuse to let other women have a position of very small authority? And she is cited as an equal authority with the Bible in establishing the structure and administration of our church in the church manual. This inconsistency has to be dealt with before the many quotes and theological arguments can be seen as credible.

It's the same answer as to how a man could be king of a whole nation, and yet be excluded from doing certain things in that very nation.

 (KJV)2 Chronicles 26:18
And they withstood Uzziah the king, and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the Lord , but to the priests the sons of Aaron, that are consecrated to burn incense: go out of the sanctuary; for thou hast trespassed; neither shall it be for thine honour from the Lord God.
As EGW is the final word in administrative matters, under the Bible, it makes no sense to disassociate women from administrative matters. Can we disassociate her from the administrative matters of the church, from the local congregation up to the GC?
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Artiste

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 04:37:05 PM »

Either a woman can be an authority or not. We can't have it both ways. And if not, then we have to consider walking away from EGW as an authority.

I'm confused.  Do you yourself consider Ellen White to be the church authority that you are presenting in your post?

And if not, why are you talking about the topic?
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Artiste

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 04:42:21 PM »

It seems very inconsistent to hold a woman as the final spiritual authority in the SDA church, yet deny women ordination to authority in the lowest field on the totem pole

Saying it over and over doesn't necessarily make it so...
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Murcielago

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2012, 04:42:50 PM »

Either a woman can be an authority or not. We can't have it both ways. And if not, then we have to consider walking away from EGW as an authority.

I'm confused.  Do you yourself consider Ellen White to be the church authority that you are presenting in your post?

And if not, why are you talking about the topic?
Absolutely! I certainly do! I advise looking at the SDA Church Manual.
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Murcielago

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2012, 04:44:08 PM »

It seems very inconsistent to hold a woman as the final spiritual authority in the SDA church, yet deny women ordination to authority in the lowest field on the totem pole

Saying it over and over doesn't necessarily make it so...
Does ignoring it make it not so?
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Artiste

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Re: Ellen White and Authority for Women
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2012, 04:45:33 PM »

Either a woman can be an authority or not. We can't have it both ways. And if not, then we have to consider walking away from EGW as an authority.

I'm confused.  Do you yourself consider Ellen White to be the church authority that you are presenting in your post?

And if not, why are you talking about the topic?
Absolutely! I certainly do! I advise looking at the SDA Church Manual.

I didn't ask what the Church Manual says, I asked if that's what you personally believe.
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