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Author Topic: South Pacific Division responds to the issues in Samoa.  (Read 10206 times)

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Bob Pickle

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Re: South Pacific Division responds to the issues in Samoa.
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2012, 05:42:21 AM »

"The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has vested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.

"When this power, which God has placed in the church, is accredited wholly to one man, and he is invested with the authority to be judgment for other minds, then the true Bible order is changed. ... Let us give to the highest organized authority in the church that which we are prone to give to one man or to a small group of men" (9T 260-261).

I think it is a serious issue when a small group of men decide that a congregation that they haven't consulted is going to switch from keeping the Sabbath on Saturday to keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. According to the above, "the true Bible order is changed."
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Artiste

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Re: South Pacific Division responds to the issues in Samoa.
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2012, 11:57:15 AM »

It is a serious issue for the people of the congregation.

But there are many, many congregations with even more serious issues.  I don't think we can solve the issue for the Samoans from halfway across the world. Better that we spend our time with issues closer to home that we understand better, being part of our own culture.
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Dedication

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Re: South Pacific Division responds to the issues in Samoa.
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2012, 03:12:17 PM »

The church is a world church. 
If we now say it's prefectly fine for one segment of the world church to call Sunday the 7th day and keep it as the Sabbath, what will we say when the Sunday laws come here?

We have long said that it  is  "the mark of the beast".
People will laugh at us and say -- your church  obviously doesn't believe that, look at all those  Adventist churches calling Sunday the 7th day.  After all didn't you say it was a "non-issue",  that it didn't matter, and  "well at least they are keeping A Sabbath day"?
So -- now that America is finally waking up and returning to a "nation under God" please keep A sabbath day (the resurrection day) and stop calling it the "mark of the beast."
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Dedication

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Re: South Pacific Division responds to the issues in Samoa.
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2012, 03:31:10 PM »


I think it is a serious issue when a small group of men decide that a congregation that they haven't consulted is going to switch from keeping the Sabbath on Saturday to keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. According to the above, "the true Bible order is changed."

Basically that is how it happened in Samoa.

But we must go back in history a little further.   Tonga set the precedent, and no one really challenged it.
Questions began to arise when other islands began to return to the eastern time zone.   So in 2005 I believe it was, the South Pacific Division did ask their OWN Biblical Research team to come up with a recommendation.

They cite some names of people who submitted their comments, like William Johnson, but don't say what those submissions contained, whether they spoke for or against, but by citing the names it gives the impression that they were in agreement.

The first part of the recommendations we can all agree with as it's basic Sabbath information.
But the last part has no biblical support, and they even acknowledge that,  and they base everything on the precedent set by Tonga and on an assumption that 180th is a divine line.

http://adventist.org.au/assets/339227

It is based on this document (produced NOT by  the GC BRC, but a local BRC in SPD) that the decision for Samoa was made, basically without allowing any opposing views to interfer.


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Dedication

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Re: South Pacific Division responds to the issues in Samoa.
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2012, 01:00:22 AM »

So what were the basis for Sunday worship according to this document?

Quote
We cannot take for granted that the situation in any of these places will remain as it is. A change of Adventist Sabbath practice might, therefore, lead to considerable tension, if Tonga, for instance, as a state decides to change to a calendar which follows the meridian, and the Adventists had to change once again.

O.K. this reasoning is actually what got Tonga into Sunday worship in the first place.   As we know all the Islands were on Asian time prior to the establishment of the Prime Meridian in Greenwich, England.   Tonga has never changed it's position.     In Tonga, the Wesleyan Mission Society and they were heavily into politics and greatly influenced the ruling monarchy.  Tonga had a constitution that contained a Sunday law -- it was a national day of rest.   Sunday was also called "the sabbath" as many coming from a puritan background called Sunday -- it was Sunday in the regular weekly cycle.
 
The first Adventist missionaries arrived in Tonga, August 30, 1895.  Somoa had "crossed" the dateline into American time three years earlier, and other Islands (like the Cook Islands) had also shifted.    So it was a time of uncertainty as to how Tonga would respond.

Secondly, the rather strict Sunday law would have made Sabbath keeping somewhat difficult. Though they probably would have kept the Sabbath had Tonga aligned itself with American time.  However, Tonga never did change, and Adventists, instead of adjusting when that reality was made manifest, continued the keeping of Sunday in Tonga.

Samoa wanted to get back to Asian time as early as 1914 when it came under the protectorate of New Zealand, but America intervened and Samoa stayed on American time.

The risk of these Islands returning to Asian time was of course, real -- as now we see several that have returned.
However, the risk of Tango moving to American time is rather remote.   The natural connection for these Islands is with the Austrailan/New Zealand countinent, not with America.   Not only is business with those countries, but also the church headquarters places them together with Australia and New Zealand.

So basically the disruption with their weekly cycles came about because of interference by european and americans, and the arbitrary 180th.  Now they are returning to their natural time zone. 

Quote
On the basis of these observations and the wide consultation sought, the Biblical Research Committee of the South Pacific states that
o As there is no clear “Thus saith the Lord” for the establishment of the dateline and the keeping of the Sabbath around the dateline, it is important to listen to the local Seventh-day Adventist community and its leadership,


They admit they have no clear "Thus saith the Lord"
They had no "Thus saith the Lord" to allow Sunday worship in Tonga for over 100 years.
But now the say "listen to the church leadership"  and keep Sunday.

Quote
While choosing the 180th meridian is practical, it has never been consistently followed by human authorities and societies, and the deviations from it are all generally accepted by the same authorities which established and accepted the position of the dateline in general.
The Seventh-day Adventist pioneers coming to the Pacific understood, however, the 180th meridian to be the natural dateline and chose to keep the Sabbath in accordance with that.
? They observed that the sunset moved in a consistent line across the globe, without any random deviations, and the setting of the sun implied to them a biblical principle.


A natural dateline?  Why should they understand the 180th is natural?   
Actually, prior to 1884 there were some studies (J.N. Andrews for one) where they suggested the "natural dateline" came down through the Bering Straits, but that isn't the 180th, it's more like the 168W.   
I did read one writer from the early 1900's who mentioned the 180th was a few degrees off, but close enough "to be safe".   Well, that ended up like saying Sunday is a day off but close enough.

Actually the natural time zone for these Islands is Asian time. 
They are FAR away from America, they have their dealings (as well as church connections) with Australia and New Zealand.

As to the sun setting in a consistant line across the globe, that isn't really accurate either, as sunset can reach any given meridian with a deviation of up to 11 hours.   (Example: June 21, at any given meridian, sunset at arctic circle 11:30 p.m.  at equator 6:00 p.m., at antarctic circle 12:30 noon.  by Dec. 21 the times are reversed)

Quote
And as there is a general sense of agreement with present practice in the Pacific islands, and as any attempt to change would create serious and complicated pastoral problems, 

No one challenged it?
Well that's not totally true either.
But they did say "general sense of agreement" so that does allow for some disagreement.
But it still doesn't give a good reason to keep Sunday.

Quote
We recommend that
o The present practice of Sabbath keeping in the Pacific Islands around the dateline be maintained.



Maybe I missed something, but I didn't see anything in the document to sanction sunday keeping.

I suppose one could say it started with good intentions, the first missionaries fully expecting the Tonga Islands to adjust to the 180th, but when Tonga decided they weren't going to let a bunch of Europeans and Americans change their week out of sync with their neighbors, that would have been the point to re-evaluate.
But then to make this moment of historical confusion in the area the precedent for future Sunday keeping for other Islands, like Samoa, returning to their natural time zone?
Why? Because it would be hard for Tonga to change now, they're comfortable with Sunday?


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