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Author Topic: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?  (Read 5178 times)

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guide4him

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wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« on: March 13, 2013, 08:53:52 PM »

I have been told by an x adventist that the Hebrews and Jews drank and used fermented wine in Old Testmnt and New testement times and Jews have been using fermented wine because that was what God told them to use for their ceremonies.

I can't believe God gave us instructions to drink fermented wine. Is the word wine used for both fermented wine and grape juice? And where is is found? I was told by my x adventist friend that is it an ADVENTIST thing and not true. He claimed to have checked in Hebrew and Greek translations and there is no difference in wording.

I had read somewhere there was a difference. I just don't know where or how to find it.

Can anyone help me, please.

Thank you.
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youngwarrior

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2013, 09:18:02 PM »

For an in depth study I would recommend Wine In the Bible by Samuel Bacchiocchi.  Here is one website where the book is available: http://www.biblicalbooks.com/Dr_Samuele_Bacchiocchi.htm  In brief; the word yayin (Hebrew), oinos (Greek), vino (Latin), and wine (English, especially King James English) all refer to the juice of the grape, either fermented or unfermented.  Only by the context could one infer which was meant.  (Please pardon any mispelling of the words.)  I have heard several pastors, including some non-SDA, say that the Hebrew that was translated "unleavened" as in unleavened bread used for the Passover refers to "anything that causes fermentation" i.e. yeast.  Since nothing that was fermented was allowed then the wine must have been unfermented.  Most Jewish sects that I have looked at still do not use fermented wine for Passover.  Some do not allow the use of fermented wine for anything.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2013, 07:56:06 AM »

I recently discovered that Rome requires alcohol to be present in the wine used in the idolatrous sacrifice of the mass. In discussing alcohol with a Catholic missionary, he asserted that Jews had to drink fermented wine for Passover. I countered by saying that when a Church of God (Anderson) preacher told a cop in the Wal-Mart parking lot in Dillworth, MN, that the Jews were forbidden to drink wine, the cop responded that he knew that already because he was Jewish. The Catholic missionary later told me that he had checked into that and had discovered that there are certain Jewish groups that don't drink fermented wine.
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Daryl Fawcett

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2013, 05:28:43 PM »

Does that also mean that there are also certain Jewish groups that drink fermented wine?

Bob Pickle

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2013, 05:32:05 PM »

Apparently, but I'm not up on that.
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Battle Creek

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 03:10:10 PM »

This quotation by Ellen White was a surprise to me. Any comments?

Quote
B has been very deficient. While in her best condition of health, his wife was not provided with a plenty of wholesome food and with proper clothing. Then, when she needed extra clothing and extra food, and that of a simple yet nutritious quality, it was not allowed her. Her system craved material to convert into blood; but he would not provide it. A moderate amount of milk and sugar, a little salt, white bread raised with yeast for a change, graham flour prepared in a variety of ways by other hands than her own, plain cake with raisins, rice pudding with raisins, prunes, and figs, occasionally, and many other dishes I might mention, would have answered the demand of appetite. If he could not obtain some of these things, a little domestic wine would have done her no injury; it would have been better for her to have it than to do without it. In some cases, even a small amount of the least hurtful meat would do less injury than to suffer strong cravings for it. {TSDF 30.5}
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Murcielago

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2013, 01:47:37 PM »

This quotation by Ellen White was a surprise to me. Any comments?

Quote
B has been very deficient. While in her best condition of health, his wife was not provided with a plenty of wholesome food and with proper clothing. Then, when she needed extra clothing and extra food, and that of a simple yet nutritious quality, it was not allowed her. Her system craved material to convert into blood; but he would not provide it. A moderate amount of milk and sugar, a little salt, white bread raised with yeast for a change, graham flour prepared in a variety of ways by other hands than her own, plain cake with raisins, rice pudding with raisins, prunes, and figs, occasionally, and many other dishes I might mention, would have answered the demand of appetite. If he could not obtain some of these things, a little domestic wine would have done her no injury; it would have been better for her to have it than to do without it. In some cases, even a small amount of the least hurtful meat would do less injury than to suffer strong cravings for it. {TSDF 30.5}
It seems that Ellen White functioned with shades of gray. She is certainly full of surprises.
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Battle Creek

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 02:18:02 PM »

Are you suggesting the possibility that she did not always mete out the correct way in black or white? How are we to mange then?
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youngwarrior

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2013, 06:18:09 PM »

Is everyone ignoring the idea that the word wine in her day did not have the same meaning it does today?  That it meant either grape juice or fermented wine, which it did.
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Murcielago

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 08:58:28 PM »

Is everyone ignoring the idea that the word wine in her day did not have the same meaning it does today?  That it meant either grape juice or fermented wine, which it did.
Although that would be true of 16th/17th century king's English in which the King James Bile was written, it is not at all true of the 19th century American English in which EGW wrote. In fact her mention of "domestic wine" was an issue at the time, as foreign wine was prohibitively expensive, but domestic table wine was inexpensive, yet often just as good.
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youngwarrior

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Re: wine as in grape juice and or fermented wine?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2013, 08:08:51 PM »

It was still true in the 19th century although the transition of the meaning to fermented only had begun.
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