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Author Topic: Is Ben Carson okay?  (Read 5811 times)

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christian

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Is Ben Carson okay?
« on: October 17, 2013, 05:27:13 AM »

     I have had my children read his book, Gifted Hands, and I have been blessed by his story. This is not an attack on him either, I wish I could ask him what is going on. I watched the tea party gathering and I heard him say ACA (Obamacare) is the worst thing since slavery and I could not wrap my mind around hearing him say that.
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mfc10

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2013, 02:58:19 PM »

Conservative SDAs love him. You need to look deeper into why he made that analogy. It has to do with government having control over more and more things in our lives...now it's healthcare, tomorrow it could be, well, you know what if you are a student of eschatology.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2013, 07:57:41 PM »

The cheapest policy I could find on our state's exchange website was $544 a month, with a $12,600 deductible. Thing is that $544 is probably more than we typically spend on non-braces healthcare in an entire year. And $544 was for if I left off half the kids and didn't care who our doctors were.

So why should I have to pay $6,528 a year for something I don't want, don't need, and can't use? And would it be morally ethical to ask anyone to subsidize the cost of my paying $6,528 for something I don't want, don't need, and can't use? I don't think so.
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WillowRun

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2013, 12:31:37 PM »

There is nothing affordable about the so called Affordable Care Act.  It does the following:

1.  Forces everyone to purchase health insurance.
2.  The insurance companies are private corporations with an eye to the bottom line
3.  The bronze (cheapest) plan gets you the most subsidy if your income is low enough.  That is all well and good. But
3.  The HUGE deductible plus 30% of medical cost once the deductible has been met make the cost of health care unaffordable...especially for those with lower incomes.

Summation:  The true object of the plan was to force all of us to buy health insurance from private companies.  Between the premiums and the high deductibles, the consumer is left with a product that he or she cannot really afford to use.  The insurance companies will make record profits at the expense every american....and that isn't right.
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Respectfully,

Willow

christian

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2013, 01:00:56 PM »

There is nothing affordable about the so called Affordable Care Act.  It does the following:

1.  Forces everyone to purchase health insurance.
2.  The insurance companies are private corporations with an eye to the bottom line
3.  The bronze (cheapest) plan gets you the most subsidy if your income is low enough.  That is all well and good. But
3.  The HUGE deductible plus 30% of medical cost once the deductible has been met make the cost of health care unaffordable...especially for those with lower incomes.

Summation:  The true object of the plan was to force all of us to buy health insurance from private companies.  Between the premiums and the high deductibles, the consumer is left with a product that he or she cannot really afford to use.  The insurance companies will make record profits at the expense every american....and that isn't right.

 Interesting responses to say the least. I am sure there are those that will understand my next statements. I have traveled extensively overseas and what I find to be the most striking difference between third world countries and the United states together with the European countries is their social programs. In the third world countries that I have visited they have no social (safety net) for the people and starvation and want is a way of life for the poor. These countries by in large have balanced budgets and the taxes collected primarily go to those working in the government, thus the government jobs and offices are corrupt and most sought after. A large part of the third worlds poverty and want is covered by (None Government Organizations) called NGO's for short which are up to ninety percent run by the developed previous mentioned countries.
     For decades in this country there has been an underclass of people, that is growing, that have suffered for want of proper medical care coverage. The insurance companies along with the medical institutes and the drug companies have slowly but surely taken over your health care and made it a very profitable endeavor. The insurance companies in tandem with the drug and medical institutions have set policies on what procedures and practices and how long you are allowed to stay in the hospital. They even created policies that allowed them to deny you proper medical care if you have preexisting conditions or reached a limit that they deem detrimental to their profit margin.
     It was because of the insurance companies, hospitals and drug companies and their rising cost that brought about the need for reform. Thus the ACA was spawn because of the necessity to correct these deficiencies that would in the end cause this country to become a third world country. The original ACA was suppose to have an government insurance option that would compete with the private sector, thus driving down the cost of health care and making it assessable to all. The insurance companies who already make record profits would be forced to, along with the hospitals to lower their cost, but that was defeated by advertisements scaring people about government involvement and accusing the government of telling you how to care for your body, which is exactly what the insurance and drug companies are currently doing.
    I have went to the ACA and seen some of the prices for health care coverage and find it interesting that their are those who lament the prices as to high without understanding how much currently they (really pay). The majority of job healthcare premiums and cost are carried by the employee without their knowledge. For example where I work my deductible is 3000 per year and the max for the family plan is 8500 out of pocket, my premiums are 415 dollars a month, roughly 200 dollars per pay period. The Employer contribution is about 600 per month, which bring the grand total monthly amount of a little over 1000 dollars per month for insurance not including my 3000 dollar yearly deduction. Many of the policies on the ACA website are before the governments percentage is deducted.
     Did you know that the Administrators and heads of hospitals salaries have increased over 500% while the employees salaries have remained stagnant through the last 20 years or so? Do you not understand that the vast majority of the increase in profit for hospitals have come at the expense of the workers, with the exception of the higher end Administrators and share holders? Do you not understand that your pay increases are being given to the insurance companies under this current system?  Do you not know that that is an exact carbon copy of the structure of third world countries? Contrary to what you believe Third world does not mean poor it means undeveloped. The rich in those countries live lavished lifestyles rivaled by none in the world.
     But here is what I find really disturbing about the entire thing from a religious standpoint, why would Christians be the ones seemingly most concerned about helping the poor out of their own pockets? Since when are Christians who's example is Christ who gave everything for the poor and less deserving become those fighting a program, no matter who does it, design to help the less fortunate? It is not the government that the bible says we have to fear and the true Christian understands that. It is rather the Christians who kill you in the name of Christ,they are the ones to fear. Out of the thousands of things we as Christians should be fighting against, the use of tax payer money for weapons of mass destruction and war machines that are imported overseas and sold to repressive regimes to keep the people enslaved to the billions of tax payer dollars spent on movies and violent videos to corrupt the minds of children and adults.
     Ben Carson had an opportunity at the Prayer Breakfast to uplift Jesus but he chose to chastise the President about a program that he would later compare to one of the worse blights in the history of the world and United States, slavery. The tea party and their ilk are in my opinion like the KKK that use the bible to justify hatred, or like the Taliban that kill in the name of God for a reward of virgins, crazy.
     If the healthcare law is bad give suggestions to fix it but don't use the excuse it is to expensive, be honest with yourself first and understand that the Christians first responsibility is to care for those sick and in need.
   
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 07:07:34 PM »

Christian,

You express concern about administrators making high salaries, and I agree with that concern.

But if I am forced to buy an expensive product that I don't want, don't need, and can't use, then I will have a lot less resources with which to help those in need.

I'm not interested in subsidizing "health" care that goes contrary to divine counsel. I would be much more interested in subsidizing genuine healthcare that treats causes, not symptoms, and encourages patients to obey the laws of health.

Auto accidents are quite a different matter than lifestyle-related diseases. But I would guess that there is more money spent on treating lifestyle diseases than on other types of problems.
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christian

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »

Christian,

You express concern about administrators making high salaries, and I agree with that concern.

But if I am forced to buy an expensive product that I don't want, don't need, and can't use, then I will have a lot less resources with which to help those in need.

I'm not interested in subsidizing "health" care that goes contrary to divine counsel. I would be much more interested in subsidizing genuine healthcare that treats causes, not symptoms, and encourages patients to obey the laws of health.

Auto accidents are quite a different matter than lifestyle-related diseases. But I would guess that there is more money spent on treating lifestyle diseases than on other types of problems.

     I understand that the worldly Healthcare that goes contrary to divine counsel is an intricate part of the Adventist Healthcare system and hospitals, actually we are knee deep in it. I would also add that the vast majority of people of the world have no other alternative but the current system, since the power to heal is not manifested by the church in large.
However I contend that some healthcare is better than none. I was recently in an foreign country where the people do not have access to healthcare and they are often turned away by the hospital or locked in for unpaid bills until the money is raised by family members. If it is determind they are not going to be able to pay they are left to die.
     Could it be that it (ACA) is not a design to control people as some might believe but a desire to offer suffering people an affordable health delivery system? And it is apostate protestism that the spirit of prophecy says is used to control the people not the Government per se. Again what is happening to people that are so selfish all they do is think of themselves as though they are above poverty and dispare? I often think of Jesus going into small towns in Israel and healing the people, many of whom brought the diseases on themselves without asking them to repent first, WOW. I have asked what would happen if Jesus was here to heal people? I kind of know what would happen the self righteous people would label him a fraud and send the educated health professionals to tell him how he wasn't licensed to do that.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 08:05:28 PM »

And it is apostate protestism that the spirit of prophecy says is used to control the people not the Government per se.

Does she not speak of our Protestant government going astray? Therefore, I do not see how you can separate Protestantism from the government when in the end of time it will be a Protestant government that apostatizes.

"They do not see that if a Protestant government sacrifices the principles that have made them a free, independent nation, and through legislation brings into the Constitution principles that will propagate papal falsehood and papal delusion, they are plunging into the Roman horrors of the Dark Ages" (LDE 126).

"When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near" (5T 451).

So what really is being done to lessen costs so that healthcare is really affordable? And what is being done to encourage the population to help those less fortunate? I haven't heard of anything thus far about the ACA that does either. And that's a problem.

Again what is happening to people that are so selfish all they do is think of themselves as though they are above poverty and dispare?

But the cost is way, way excessive. $544 a month for health insurance I don't need, don't want, and can't use? And I'm supposed to fork out that much so that someone else can have healthcare that heaven does not approve of? And under certain conditions I can have subsidies to pay that huge amount so that I can have something I don't need, don't want, and can't use? Am I being selfish if I say that it is unethical for me to use subsidies to pay for such a thing?
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christian

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2013, 08:15:03 AM »

"So what really is being done to lessen costs so that healthcare is really affordable? And what is being done to encourage the population to help those less fortunate? I haven't heard of anything thus far about the ACA that does either. And that's a problem."
     Obviously if that is your statement you are ignorant about the entire law. Already those with preexisting conditions are being allowed to get medical coverage. And may millions more working poor in states where Medicare has been expanded are receiving coverage with the exception of the almost unanimous republican states that refuse to extend coverage to the poor, even though the system is funded 100% by the federal government. Already children who could not afford healthcare coverage (for the last two years) have been allowed to stay covered by their parents medical until 26 even if they are out of school.
     I tried to explain to you in the previous post that indeed the ACA premiums are less than the current system because you are offset by credits if your income is at a certain level. MOST PEOPLE PAY FAR MORE AND I MEAN FAR MORE THAN WHAT THE ACA COST IT IS JUST COVERED, HIDDEN, BY THE EMPLOYER. I explain to you that my current policy not including the mandatory 3000 dollars a year, pay first deductible is over a 1000 dollars a month. I have explain to you what transpires in third world countries where their is no safety net for the poor, it is horrible. I have explain to you that the SDA Health System is modeled after the worldly system and that countless people would perish without this system. It is foolish to push the health requirements of the spirit of prophecy when the church itself does not keep them and their is no power, by in large, among the supposed people of God to heal.
     Any student of history and current events knows it is the fever of Christianity gone wrong that causes the carnage of death destruction and the lose of life. Every major conflict of the world has the mark of religion or Christianity on it that is why the forefathers tried to keep established religion and Government separate.
   Their is no lack of money to take care of the poor and needy what is lacking is priority and that is being dictated by the religious fanatics and rich both of whom do not trust God.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2013, 07:40:50 PM »

christian,

You did not explain how the ACA actually lessens costs, and there have been reports out there stating that it does not. The costs are still obscenely high. The ACA may have changed who pays for them, but they are still too high.

Meanwhile the Great Physician had not where to lay His head, and Dr. Luke followed His example to the point that Paul had to make tents in order to help provide funds for Dr. Luke to live on. We need far more physicians today like Dr. Luke.

Does the ACA do anything to encourage Americans to help those less fortunate?
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christian

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2013, 03:11:53 AM »

christian,

You did not explain how the ACA actually lessens costs, and there have been reports out there stating that it does not. The costs are still obscenely high. The ACA may have changed who pays for them, but they are still too high.

Meanwhile the Great Physician had not where to lay His head, and Dr. Luke followed His example to the point that Paul had to make tents in order to help provide funds for Dr. Luke to live on. We need far more physicians today like Dr. Luke.

Does the ACA do anything to encourage Americans to help those less fortunate?

    The current cost is already extremely higher and unsustainable for the long run without cutting even millions more from access to Healthcare. It is not the design of the ACA to encourage Americans to help those less fortunate, the design is to help those less fortunate, which it is already doing. The price of healthcare is more due to the greed of professionals that have no guidelines to charging or spending. It is no wonder that the heads and executives of hospitals have received a 500% increase in salaries. The war that you see about the ACA is a war that is being spun by those in the Healthcare system and drug system to keep the status qou. You keep jumping back to the cost of Healthcare as though it is the ACA that is causing it to be high when in fact it is the Health system run a crazy. Do you not understand paying 12 dollars for a box of cotton balls is crazy. We have patients with quarter million dollars in bills for a couple of months stay in the hospital.
    Again my concern is that Christians would be fighting against a system that is at least trying to correct the wrong.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2013, 04:51:00 AM »

1. The reason why homes cost so much is because they can, because people can get loans to pay for them. Remove all the loans and the prices will come down, if people want to sell their homes.

The reason why healthcare costs so much is because it can, because insurance can pay for it. Remove all the insurance and the prices will come down, if hospitals and doctors want to make a living.

Therefore, I think the ACA is doing nothing to address the greed involved in the high price of healthcare.

2. You state, "It is not the design of the ACA to encourage Americans to help those less fortunate, the design is to help those less fortunate, which it is already doing." Therefore, the ACA is actually compounding the problem by further removing the opportunity of beneficence from its citizenry. I don't have to help the less fortunate because the government does that, and thus I can devote my time and energy to greed. That's a serious problem, I think.

3. You state, "Again my concern is that Christians would be fighting against a system that is at least trying to correct the wrong." But the ACA is doing nothing to correct the wrong. It isn't encouraging lower prices for boxes of cotton balls, it isn't encouraging less greed, and it isn't encouraging more beneficence. What it is doing is providing a way to prop up the high prices in order that the greed may continue.
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christian

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2013, 08:37:58 AM »

1. The reason why homes cost so much is because they can, because people can get loans to pay for them. Remove all the loans and the prices will come down, if people want to sell their homes.

The reason why healthcare costs so much is because it can, because insurance can pay for it. Remove all the insurance and the prices will come down, if hospitals and doctors want to make a living.

Therefore, I think the ACA is doing nothing to address the greed involved in the high price of healthcare.

2. You state, "It is not the design of the ACA to encourage Americans to help those less fortunate, the design is to help those less fortunate, which it is already doing." Therefore, the ACA is actually compounding the problem by further removing the opportunity of beneficence from its citizenry. I don't have to help the less fortunate because the government does that, and thus I can devote my time and energy to greed. That's a serious problem, I think.

3. You state, "Again my concern is that Christians would be fighting against a system that is at least trying to correct the wrong." But the ACA is doing nothing to correct the wrong. It isn't encouraging lower prices for boxes of cotton balls, it isn't encouraging less greed, and it isn't encouraging more beneficence. What it is doing is providing a way to prop up the high prices in order that the greed may continue.

 Your thinking is totally illogical and filled with insanity, you need the free psychiatric care of ACA. Talking to you is like being on a merry go round. (just kidding but that statement made me laugh) Okay, laughter is like a medicine :) I think your form of argument could be used in a lot of topics of disagreement. Obviously releasing the slave from slavery would only make him more of a slave to his environment because it would leave him hopeless without a master to guide him. The bible furthermore teaches that a slave should be happy in servitude at least for seven years as the bible teaches that a slave should serve for seven years and then be given the choice of freedom. Furthermore slavery does not address the problem of lack of education which the slave could get from his master. Also freeing the slave by force would be against the principles of freedom. Instead lets keep slavery for at least seven years for those that have just acquired slavery and follow the bible principle, God never forces a person.
    No obviously the ACA is not a perfect law, however it is much better than what we had especially for children and people who suffer with preexisting conditions. I am still not sure why Christians would be against trying to help the poor. I have yet to hear those against it give a constructive remedy or address the problems. It does address some of the problems especially for preexisting conditions and young people, as I have previously said. And it is cheaper than the current insurance cost which are paid by the institution and subsidised by the employer through lower wages. Every plan and action by the government is not evil, some actually alleviate the suffering of their people.
     But the evil selfish Christian who is standing on the side of Satan often does not see it because self clouds his judgment. Like the Muslim that kills for the benefit of virgins. Like the killers in the mall in Kenya that paused from their killing spree to pray, afterwards continuing the killing, their sincerity does not lessen their sin. I applaud any attempt to lessen the suffering of others even if I may have to give a little.
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Is Ben Carson okay?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2013, 04:41:40 AM »

I am still not sure why Christians would be against trying to help the poor. I have yet to hear those against it give a constructive remedy or address the problems. It does address some of the problems especially for preexisting conditions and young people, as I have previously said. And it is cheaper than the current insurance cost which are paid by the institution and subsidised by the employer through lower wages.

I think some would classify me as poor, and it does not help me to require me to buy a product I don't want, don't need, and can't use, and I don't think it ethical for me to ask someone else to subsidize my purchase of a product I don't want, don't need, and can't use.

Nothing has been done to address the costs themselves. The costs have been left intact. The only change is who ultimately pays for them. Kind of a strange result after hearing for years that healthcare costs were skyrocketing too quickly.

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