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Author Topic: Understanding the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude.  (Read 9769 times)

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tinka

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Re: Understanding the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude.
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2017, 05:10:31 PM »

Thank you for your response. Since first realizing and hearing of the 144,000 I have to say it was a devestating doctrine for me and realized I could not be in that small number only taken. No way could I make that, I was young then and that made me very disheartened. I realized that since the beginning of time many multitudes would be taken but in these last days only a few would be saved with this theory Then I discovered it was a doctrine that the SDA was not in unity with. (literal, symbolic) now which is it.?? Still did not make sense and did not come full circle. Then the study began years ago. I have been very satisfied with your same thoughts and outcome of the last day messengers and their works as you commented on but still did not come full circle with complete feeling of "no doubt". more and more study in search of this matter. All evangelists have made study but all different. The above posts  I made are i imagine hard to follow as you can't put all out there I think it would take years as long as I studied. lol My mind is very open to this study as I feel somewhere there is quite a simplicity made known that I am sure EWG was given and therefore sound doctrine.

So now I dig out my grandma's old books and finally come across articles that solidify the simplicity and all the rest I find is just a problem with timing and sequence of tribulation words and the "loud cry" brought on by the "Holy Spirit" and a great movement coming from that. Of course human instrument will be of use also as we both understand from your comments and that I know with out doubt also. But that does not exactly explain the 144,000 yet.

One of the books I find is comments by J.N. Loughborough.  Of course then, the SDA REFORMERS still twist his words into still the above doctrine of only 144,000 living and going on this last day. Now here is where Loughborough states what happened to truth. I am now going to quote exactly as I read.

The presentation of the following pages to our people I deem to be in harmony with what is stated in "Testimonies for the church." vol. 7, page 288. etc.etc.
Of the benefit to be derived from the bringing of such things to the attention of our people, we read from the pen of Sister E.G. White, in the South African Missionary of February 20, 1911. We have nothing to fear from the future, except we shall forget the way the Lord has led us, and His teachings in our past history

In reference to the subject matter of this book--the sealed 144,000 I have been greatly moved by the Spirit of God to write and publish the facts as to how the sealing message was obtained-- not only from the Bible but by direct instruction in visions of Sister E>G> White, also as to how the message was received and taught by our ministers and people down to the year 1894 when the "New light" theory found its advocate in one who afterwords apostatized from the faith, and died without seeing the fulfillment of his expectation that he would live to the end of time, and hence be one of the 144,000. His claim was that later testimonies of Sister White taught that all the 144,000 would be made up of those who had never died.

When I found that some were teaching that "all of the 144,000 who will be sealed are now living." I thought it time that some one should speak, and show that it is not the manner of God's prophets to make positive statements at one, and afterwards teach entirely contrary to them.  Such surely was not the course of Bible prophets.  The whole of this "new light" is produced by taking out of their connection and away from the things of which they are spoken, and giving them a general application, as you will see when we come to the analysis of this matter.
I presented the substance of this tract in two discourses on the Stockton camp ground.  Those who heard the discourses, requested that it might be published so that they could have the reading of it.l  As the subject is one on which there is some controversy, I thought our publishers would not wish to pring the matter in their papers, or take the responsibility of publishing it in any form.  J.N. Loughborough, Lodi, California, JUly 1 1916

This is for the benefit of all Seventh Day Adventist who believe in the Advent Me3ssage to know the original teachings.

Notwithstanding these facts in the testimonies presented it is still urged by some, that what is said in "Great Controversy." page 649. shows that the 144,000 will be composed wholly of those who never died.  Let us see what is said, and the condition under which the said statement occurs.
"Thses having been translated from the earth, from among the living are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb" "These are they which come our of great tribulation, they have passed through the tribulation  such as never was since there was a nation."

Now back to me again, Loughborough knew that even the ones that gave the 3rd angels message and died giving and raised in "special resurrection" still would not be "of" the 144,000. EGW commented many times of friends giving the 3rd angels message  that died would be "with" the 144,000 and not counted as "one of".  But they would have special resurrection.  Those  (first fruits) were taken and surround the throne day and night taken as first fruits to heaven with the Son at the ascension.

They were prefigured. ( Represented of something beforehand)   Sealed and in past tense of Rev. all the qualification of those martyrs are given to us as examples that previously went thru same. Our time is called the time of Jacobs Trouble coming up and in it starting as prophecy fulfilling right now. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 07:28:17 PM by tinka »
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tinka

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Re: Understanding the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude.
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2017, 07:13:45 PM »

 The 144,000 Without Guile.--One of the marked features in the "representation" of the 144,000 is that in their mouth there was found no guile. The Lord has said, "Blessed is the man . . . in whose spirit there is no guile." They profess to be children of God, and are represented as following the Lamb whithersoever He goeth. They are prefigured before us as standing on Mount Zion, girt for holy service, clothed in white linen, which is the righteousness of the saints. But all who follow the Lamb in heaven will first have followed Him on earth, in trustful, loving, willing obedience, followed Him not fretfully and capriciously, but  confidently, truthfully, as the flock follows the shepherd. . . .  {3SM 424.2} .... and the first fruits that went to heaven at the ascension did that for our example. and also their works do follow them again as the 3rd angels messages was sounded of 1844.  Now that age will have their special resurrection just before the coming. After years it all seems to finally be quite simply once all is in place and not just picked over here and there to all different theories. The rest of story after reading L.N. Loughborough is that I have what they call an index book of all the Bible and each text used by EGW in every aspect or context of how many times she used each bible verse in all her books. When you do this it leads straight to the truth of the context she writes about with no doubt. I feel it's quite amazing. and that understanding was given to her when the sealing message was delivered. But later confusion made it tabu to SDA to this day still divided over literal and symbolism.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2017, 07:19:01 PM by tinka »
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tinka

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Re: Understanding the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude.
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2017, 05:33:07 AM »

Here is interesting thought also. Great Controversy p. 665.

"Nearest the throne are those who were once zealous in the cause of Satan, (but who, plucked as brands from the burning,) Now who would that be if not the very jews that speaks of the crucifixtion of the Son of God cursed for the burning!) ...but who, plucked as brands from the burning having followed their Saviour with deep, intense, devotion. These would be the "firstfruits" taken at the ascension would be my thought for this era as only they could sing "the song of Moses" for only their experience.

Next are those who perfected Christian characters in the midst of falsehood and infidelity, those who honored the law of God when the Christian world declared it void, and the millions, (of all ages,) who were martyred for their faith.  That era would be the time of "The greatest tribulation of 1260 years that ended and they would sing a " New Song"

And now: our era - And beyond is the "great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues... before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. and they sing the "song Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb"

Do we still have to wonder who the 144,000 is and the prefigured way of God"s plan is in all era's? I am just very satisfied and happy that it's now greatly possible I can be in the great multitude brought by the messengers of all eras that their works do follow them and to our day the writings of His chosen vessel that complied. I am happy for this. This may not be perfect but I feel pretty close. The perfect study would be to take index book just in revelation only and copy all her writings in context pertaining only to the 144,000 and that would be perfect truth.

I still would like any comments where things could be error for thought.



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reddogs

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Re: Understanding the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2021, 05:49:56 AM »

Here is Ellen White on this question..
Author:
Ellen G. White Estate
A collection of Ellen G. White statements relating to the 144,000.
(See The Great Controversy, pp. 648,649 for basic statement)

A Non-Essential Question

"Christ says that there will be those in the church who will present fables and suppositions, when God has given grand, elevating, ennobling truth, which should ever be kept in the treasure-house of the mind. When men pick up this theory and that theory, when they are curious to know something it is not necessary for them to know, God is not leading them. It is not His plan that His people shall present something which they have to suppose, which is not taught in the Word. It is not His will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand. Those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question.

"My brethren and sisters, appreciate and study the truths God has given for you and your children. Spend not your time in seeking to know that which will be no spiritual help. 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' This is the all-important question, and it has been clearly answered. 'What is written in the law? How readest thou?" -Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 174, 175.

Strive to Be Among the 144,000

"Let us strive with all the power that God has given us to be among the hundred and forty-four thousand. And let us do all that we can to help others to gain heaven." -Review and Herald; March 9, 1905.

Mrs. White and the 144,000

"The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. . . . I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, 'You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with the 144,000,* shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God."-Early Writings, pp. 39, 40.

Mrs. Hastings to Be With the 144,000

"I saw that she [Mrs. Hastings, who had just died] was sealed and would come up at the voice of God and stand upon the earth, and would be with the 144,000. I saw we need not mourn for her; she would rest in the time of trouble."-Letter 10, 1850 (2SM 263).

Silence is Eloquence

[The following letter from C. C. Crisler, leading secretary in Mrs. White's office, addressed to Elder E. E. Andross, president of the Pacific Union Conference, was called forth by a request from him to Sister White for any light she might have bearing on the teachings of Dr. B. E. Fullmer of Los Angeles, that the 144,000 will be made up of Americans only, none from other lands.]

"Elmshaven, Sanitarium, California, December 8, 1914. Dear Brother Andross:  During the few minutes remaining of the noon hour before close of mails, after receiving your special delivery letter of inquiry, I sent you a hurried reply to your communication, promising further word by wire. Tonight I am sending [you] the following telegraphic letter:

"'Mrs. White instructs me to inform you she has no light further than that the presentation of uncertainties as certainties, and the urging of mysteries as revealed truths, is perilous and leads to disappointment. She suggests building on Holy Scriptures, the true foundation, rather than on personal conjecture.-C. C. Crisler.'

"When reading the letter to Sister White, and listening to her remarks in response, I had with me as a witness Elder D. E. Robinson.

"'I have no light on the subject,' she said, upon hearing the letter. 'It is a very delicate time in which we are living - a time when we must individually cling to the Lord with all the powers of our being.' She said further:

"Those who urge theories regarding matters that are not revealed, are placing themselves where they are in peril of meeting with disappointments. "Hide yourself in God; hide your mysteries in God"- these words have been repeated during the night season, over and over again. From the first, I have been instructed that the Lord Jesus can give counsel that will not bring disappointment.

"'Please tell my brethren that I have nothing presented before me regarding the circumstances concerning which they write, and I can set before them only that which has been presented to me.

"'There are those who attempt to deal with uncertainties as certainties; and when they reach this position, they are where it is possible for the enemy to use them.

"'In the past, light has been given me repeatedly that when a crisis arises, we are to take the counsel of God, and trace interestedly every item that presents the truth in its verity.

"'The greatest help will come when we see the influence of the teachings of the Holy Scriptures. Their influence is to lead us to stand on an exalted basis, where we will build our faith and the faith of others, not on this one's say-so, and that one's say-so, and another one's say-so, but on the real foundation, the Word of the living God.'

"I have tried to write out from my notes the words spoken by Sister White after listening to your letter and to portions of the letter written by me, also to my hastily written reply to you. By no word or sign did Sister White attempt to say which party is right and which party is wrong. In no wise did she make any comment on my letter you, and, so far as we could understand, in no wise did she attempt to interpret or explain that which she has written in former years regarding the 144,000. But, rising above mere detail, she outlined the principles set forth above.

"I have nothing to add to that which I wrote at noon. Yes, there is one comment Sister White did make when I was reading to her my letter. She expressed pleasure over the fact that I had included in my letter to you the words, 'On the matter of the exact meaning of the 144,000 Sister White has repeatedly instructed us that "silence is eloquence."'

"She also commented favorably upon hearing the words with which I closed, 'So far as I now know, no one knows the full truth of the matter, nor will we know until we are on the other side of Jordan.'

"I feel confident, Elder Andross, that the brethren in southern California will find blessing in reviewing the teachings of Scripture concerning the 144,000, and bringing to bear upon these teachings whatever light there may be in the published writings of Sister White. And as prayerful consideration is given the matter in all its bearings, I believe that God will make the truth sufficiently clear to make possible the avoidance of needless and unprofitable controversy over questions not vital to the salvation of precious souls.

"With kindest regards, and praying that God may give breadth of sympathy as well as clarity of vision to those called upon to handle this perplexing problem that has arisen, I am as ever, Yours truly, C. C. Crisler." https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/materials/theology-second-advent/counsel-regarding-question-144000

Ellen G. White Estate December 21, 1964 Revised September, 1990
___________
*Note: Observe that the promise was given to Mrs. White that if she was faithful, she with the 144,000 would have certain privileges.
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