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Author Topic: Did Christ die the second death?  (Read 6230 times)

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reddogs

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Did Christ die the second death?
« on: August 04, 2008, 10:48:57 AM »

Did Christ die the second death?



I had never heard of this from any Adventist pulpit or preacher, but some people say Christ died the second death, because the second death (the one after the 1000 years) is the penalty for sin...



Has anyone heard of this, and can anyone expand on why/where this belief comes from...





Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2008, 02:40:00 PM by reddogs »
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Fran

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2008, 11:06:13 AM »

Yes, He did indeed!
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Johann

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2008, 03:32:30 PM »

   
Quote
   In Christ's death is no hint of the Saviour's effort to win the favor of the Father. With that favor already in hand, His confidence carried Him to Calvary, despite a shuddering of His human frame. Only on the cross, confronted by withdrawal of His Father's presence in revulsion against sin, did the stark break become clear. As the veil of our guilt fell over Him, there was expressed from His lips an agonizing cry, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
        With this He slipped into the pit of the second death carrying the burden of rejection for rebellion against God. At that point He is in our place. His is the despair of lost sinners staring into a black hole of oblivion, devoid of hope. Standing in our place, "The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. (The Desire of Ages, p. 753). Death overtook Him as the abandoned sinner, alone, in the place where each of us really belongs.

From    Why Did Jesus Die?
How God Saves Us


George W. Reid, Former Director
Biblical Research Institute
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reddogs

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2008, 03:42:16 PM »

   
Quote
   In Christ's death is no hint of the Saviour's effort to win the favor of the Father. With that favor already in hand, His confidence carried Him to Calvary, despite a shuddering of His human frame. Only on the cross, confronted by withdrawal of His Father's presence in revulsion against sin, did the stark break become clear. As the veil of our guilt fell over Him, there was expressed from His lips an agonizing cry, "Why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46).
        With this He slipped into the pit of the second death carrying the burden of rejection for rebellion against God. At that point He is in our place. His is the despair of lost sinners staring into a black hole of oblivion, devoid of hope. Standing in our place, "The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. (The Desire of Ages, p. 753). Death overtook Him as the abandoned sinner, alone, in the place where each of us really belongs.

From    Why Did Jesus Die?
How God Saves Us


George W. Reid, Former Director
Biblical Research Institute

Johann,

That is the needle in the haystack I have been looking for, thank you so much for posting that....

Rick
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Bob Pickle

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2008, 04:56:55 PM »

Consider this:

"In consequence of Adam's sin, death passed upon the whole human race. All alike go down into the grave. And through the provisions of the plan of salvation, all are to be brought forth from their graves" (GC 544).

It's a technical point, but Rev. 20 pictures the second death as something that takes place after the second resurrection. According to GC 544, there then would be no second death if Christ had not died on Calvary.

If we still want to maintain that Christ died the second death, it would seem that we would then have to propose that the first death would have been the second death if Christ had not died. Or, that the human race would have suffered their only death and extinction at Eden.

The second possibility is probably correct:

"After Adam and Eve had sinned, they were under bondage to the law. Because of their transgression they were sentenced to suffer death, the penalty of sin. But Christ, the propitiation for our sins, declared: 'I will stand in Adam's place. I will take upon myself the penalty of his sin. He shall have another trial. I will secure for him a probation. He shall have the privileges and the opportunities of a free man, and be allowed to exercise his God-given power of choice. I will postpone the day of his arraignment for trial. He shall be bound over to appear at the bar of God in the judgment' " (AU Gleaner 8-19-03).

Thus, because of Calvary, what would have been the first death became the second death, to be executed upon those deemed guilty in the judgment, which would take place thousands of years after Eden.

Does this sound reasonable?

I suppose one should define what one means by "second death." Certainly Christ was not thrown into a lake of fire. Certainly He did not suffer a death from which there is no resurrection. So in some aspects He did not suffer the second death. But if we concentrate on the feelings of infamy, shame, and contempt Christ experienced and received, that is part of the experience of the second death.
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Fran

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2008, 07:57:52 PM »

If Christ had not paid my debt for sin in the second death, I could die for my own sins.  If he died only the first death, He did not die for my sins. 

This very subject caused me to believe that Christ's death meant nothing to me, much less Him being able to save me, because I could just die for my own sins.   Everyone dies the first dead except, those alive when Christ comes.  It is that second death that he died for us!

Then I read the Desire of Ages, in chapter 74, the first paragraph on page 694 as it describes the agony of drops of sweat that were blood on His brow. I recommend you read the whole chapter. 

"Christ's agony did not cease, but his depression and discouragement left Him.  The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury.   He came forth calm and serene.  A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face.  He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the suffering of death for every man."

When I came to this paragraph, I understood what Christ's sacrifice did for me!  I was led to read the Desire of Ages because I read a book, but I can't recall the exact name of it.  But it said Christ died the first death in the Garden of Gethsemane.  I grabbed the Desire of Ages and read the whole chapter and was addicted to the book.  I finally understood what I did to cause Christ to suffer the second death.

My next "WOW" moment was when I understood Jesus Christ was at creation and ALL Through the Old Testament!  It blew me away!  This of course was way back years ago!  However, I remember it.  It was a direct answer to my demanding prayer!  I stood at the stove cooking breakfast before church.  I "told" God that if this was all there was, I wanted out.   That day, God poured it on through an obnoxious visitor at church, and a long series of eye opening events!  It is wonderful how FAST God answered my prayer! 

I have read the desire of Ages about 12-13 times.  I never tire of reading it, and I always find something new!

Thanks for asking the original question!  It brings very good memories.
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reddogs

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2008, 05:01:22 AM »

So what we have learned is that, Yes, it is the total seperation from God that is the 2nd death, and Christ somehow experienced it at the Cross. This is the correct view of the 2nd  death as we are not talking about a eternal burning hell per se, we are talking about the results of the second death which is eternal death or total seperation from God. The wicked have choosen it while the saints have chosen eternal life. So the question is, did Jesus experience the 2nd death which on the face of it, the death of grave in the tomb, doesnt seem to meet that criteria.

But, did Christ suffer the total seperation from God the Father which is the sinners ultimate fate. I came across where EGW says that Christs connection to the Father was (for the only time ever, and never again) 'sundered' so there was a complete seperation as Christ died at the cross...

Main Entry: sun·der
Pronunciation: \ˈsən-dər\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sun·dered; sun·der·ing \-d(ə-)riŋ\
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gesundrian, syndrian; akin to Old High German suntarōn to sunder, Old English sundor apart, Latin sine without, Sanskrit sanutar away
Date: before 12th century
transitive verb
: to break apart or in two : separate by or as if by violence or by intervening time or space
intransitive verb
: to become parted, disunited, or severed
synonyms see separate


In the final judgment the wicked will be in God's presence but totally separated from Him.

The Captain of our salvation was perfected through suffering. His soul was made an offering for sin. It was necessary for the awful darkness to gather about His soul because of the withdrawal of the Father's love and favor; for He was standing in the sinner's place, and this darkness every sinner must experience. The righteous One must suffer the condemnation and wrath of God, not in vindictiveness; for the heart of God yearned with greatest sorrow when His Son, the guiltless, was suffering the penalty of sin. This sundering of the divine powers will never again occur throughout the eternal ages (MS 93, 1899).

God the Father was present at the Cross but a seperation is evident at the point that Christ cries out, 'why have you forsaken me'....
Matthew 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

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Johann

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2008, 01:41:52 PM »

If Christ had not paid my debt for sin in the second death, I could die for my own sins.  If he died only the first death, He did not die for my sins. 

This very subject caused me to believe that Christ's death meant nothing to me, much less Him being able to save me, because I could just die for my own sins.   Everyone dies the first dead except, those alive when Christ comes.  It is that second death that he died for us!

Then I read the Desire of Ages, in chapter 74, the first paragraph on page 694 as it describes the agony of drops of sweat that were blood on His brow. I recommend you read the whole chapter. 

"Christ's agony did not cease, but his depression and discouragement left Him.  The storm had in nowise abated, but He who was its object was strengthened to meet its fury.   He came forth calm and serene.  A heavenly peace rested upon His bloodstained face.  He had borne that which no human being could ever bear; for He had tasted the suffering of death for every man."

When I came to this paragraph, I understood what Christ's sacrifice did for me!  I was led to read the Desire of Ages because I read a book, but I can't recall the exact name of it.  But it said Christ died the first death in the Garden of Gethsemane.  I grabbed the Desire of Ages and read the whole chapter and was addicted to the book.  I finally understood what I did to cause Christ to suffer the second death.

My next "WOW" moment was when I understood Jesus Christ was at creation and ALL Through the Old Testament!  It blew me away!  This of course was way back years ago!  However, I remember it.  It was a direct answer to my demanding prayer!  I stood at the stove cooking breakfast before church.  I "told" God that if this was all there was, I wanted out.   That day, God poured it on through an obnoxious visitor at church, and a long series of eye opening events!  It is wonderful how FAST God answered my prayer! 

I have read the desire of Ages about 12-13 times.  I never tire of reading it, and I always find something new!

Thanks for asking the original question!  It brings very good memories.

This was good Sabbath reading. It is good to meditate on what Christ really has done - for me. It may be difficult for  us to ever understand the full significance of His great sacrifice for us. it seems that His sacrifice is much greater if it was to Him like the second death. Do we understand what is included in His complete separation? I do not recall right now if it is on DA where EGW states that His divinity did not die while his humanity died. It seems like she says it was His divinity that raised him up agan.
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reddogs

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Re: Did Christ die the second death?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 03:05:36 PM »

As I gain understanding on the truths I learn, I go over them with my brethren at church.... Some seemed to have known about the truth so long that they seemed bored with it and it no longer seems to have any affect...Others seemed to be refreshed and excited to read the truth as if for the first time and are happy to go over all aspects of what God and His Son Jesus Christ have done for us and are preparing in the heavenly kingdom.....I am glad some never tire of studying Gods truth....
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