Advent Talk

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

You can find an active Save 3ABN website at http://www.Save-3ABN.com.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: 3ABN 2007 financial statement  (Read 24515 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2009, 06:46:22 AM »

It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.

On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?

You have to think about how the Judge or the other side's legal team can use what you put out for public consumption...

I give that thought as well.

and you also have to think about the baby christians out there...and how this might cause them to reject their new faith...

That is a legitimate concern.
Logged

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2009, 06:50:05 AM »

This thread is about 3ABN's 2007 financial statement, which is required by Illinois law to be open to public inspection, despite Mollie Steenson's sworn testimony that they don't let anyone see them. The state of Illinois has decided that non-profit organizations must be accountable to the public from which they solicit donations.

3ABN reported purchasing only $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books the entire year of 2007, while at the same time they reported over $1 million in cost of goods given away. And Remnant reported around $200,000 in royalty payments for the same time period.

So did 3ABN really only purchase $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007? Any thoughts about what is going on?
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 09:18:15 AM »

My thoughts & questions.

Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting?  Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge?  Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!

Logged

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2009, 11:24:55 AM »

My thoughts & questions.

Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting?  Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge?  Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!

By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.

How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2009, 03:33:15 PM »

The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.

The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time. 




My thoughts & questions.

Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting?  Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge?  Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!


By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.

How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
Logged

Snoopy

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3056
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2009, 07:15:25 PM »


I thought that, too, Fran.  But there isn't a big enough drop in inventory year-to-year to support that theory.


The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.

The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time. 




My thoughts & questions.

Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting?  Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge?  Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!


By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.

How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
Logged

WillowRun

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Female
  • Posts: 102
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2009, 07:27:55 PM »

It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.

On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?


After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?
Logged
Respectfully,

Willow

SDAminister

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 233
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2009, 07:41:56 PM »

It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.

On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?


After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?

WillowRun,
Don't you have anything better to do than to hassle Bob about his own beliefs and actions? Who gave you the right to get mixed up in this whole affair? Why did you come on this forum anyway?

SDAminister
Logged

Bob Pickle

  • Defendants
  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4061
    • Pickle Publishing
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2009, 07:48:03 PM »

It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.

On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?


After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

When are we to be as lambs led to the slaughter like Jesus, and when is it all right to appeal to Caesar as Paul did?

But one thing is true: Jesus did not stop speaking the truth after His arrest. And we have the example of the martyrs as well, that they kept on speaking the truth. Wylie records the dying words of a preacher from Geneva who was pastoring the Waldensians in southern Italy. The story is quite touching.

Of course, truth should be spoken in love. That's kind of hard to do in court papers.
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2009, 10:52:56 PM »

I haven't compared the 990 with the financial statements.  I will say that the auditor was underpaid!  This is the most detailed report ever from 3ABN!

I marveled at his courage to spend the time he must have spent to be able to put the information together in a manner most will understand.

As always Paragraphs 2 brings the "except for statements" in paragraph 5.  Then in Paragraph 3 & 4 gets them on the foreign associations where they send money and expense what they sent without any accounting of the expenditures.

They still have problems with valuing assets.  Some are slow learners.  Pages 6-12 are very good.  I believe this shows where the accountant did double time!

The statements on page 13 clearly say the $ 1,065,030.36 comes from Cost of Goods given away-Other.  This does not include the $ 435,724.81 they gave away in satellite equipment.  I will have to go back and compare all of the Cost of Goods/Inventory for the past few years. 

What was it Shelley Quinn stated about over 7,000,000?  Surely she had to have said "printed" or "given away"since they gave them away for free.  I question where she received her information.  I need to compare Balance Sheets for Cost of Goods Sold/Inventory,  Their Inventory is  $ 534,208.94 at the end of 12/31/2007.

On page 7; paragraph h,. are the details of their inventory.  Books are not listed unless it is included under Literature.  Their inventory consists of Satellite Dishes, Receivers, Literature, & Music Compacts disks.  It is not broken down by $ amounts in each category.  However, Satellites and equipment is excluded from the $ 1,065,030.36.
 
I want them to know that I did notice that they are listing Fiduciary Funds/Money for other Ministries as a Liability now!  Finally, after all these years of screaming about how they are liabilities, not 3ABN income! 

However, I was disappointed to see that there was a balance of $ 14,894.28 in Liabilities that belongs to other ministries.   The total that went to 3ABN income in 2000 was $14,000+ also.  I would like to see monthly Financial Statements.  Dream on, huh!

Remember, however, there is no free lunch - ever! The donors paid Danny for them to be given away free!

This is as far as I have gotten here in my notes.  After Sabbath I will check these other things.  Because of the accounting of past years, I tend to doubt the validity of past audits done by 3ABN auditors.  This year is pleasingly different!

Is this Gary Hunter Stenn LLP new auditors?  If not, they sure did do a lot more this year.  Even though they still aren't doing things right, this firm is laying it all out there for everyone to understand!

Happy Sabbath.

Do we have a copy of Remnants 2007 990?  I would like a copy if anyone has it.  This will contribute to answering this question.

The last note I have to check out is found on page 10, #9, Donated Assets.  For 2007 there was $ 1,502,657.92.  "The assets are recorded at FMV and are included in contribution revenue."  The statement tells me this isn't right yet.   It looks like they are receipting the assets received for eBay sales and Barn Yard Sales!  Did they fix what was wrong? 

I will be trying to find out.  It is clear eBay and other Barn Yard Sales bring in quite a big chunk, and always have been. Now that they are being recorded it is clear to see it is very possible to sell 2 million as Tammy stated on air.  Remember from 1998-2002 they were no values on the books.  The stuff just sold, but of course there are no records at 3ABN of these sales!  I still wonder why they have no records of my purchases?  It is a good thing Merchant accounts can be tracked to get the dollar amounts of all of those sales.



I thought that, too, Fran.  But there isn't a big enough drop in inventory year-to-year to support that theory.



The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.

The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time. 




My thoughts & questions.

Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting?  Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge?  Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!


By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.

How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
Logged

Snoopy

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3056
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2009, 12:16:40 AM »

Fran, I'm sending you the Remnant 2007 Form 990.  I tried to attach it here but I couldn't get it to upload.

Gray Hunter Stenn are not new to 3ABN.  They have been auditing them for years.  I was actually surprised that they stayed on the engagement, but it looks like they tried to be as thorough as the could be with the information they were given.  That audit opinion is getting longer!
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2009, 01:04:39 AM »

Thank you so much, Snoopy!  Thank you for all the documents you have already sent to me.  I really do appreciate it.

I am sure you will have it all figured out shortly, because I am so slow and take a lot of time. 
Keep up your good work.

I do believe this firm has decided they needed some serious CYA, what with the IRS Audits.  It looks to me like Max Trevino had a hand in this audit report.  If so, I approve!

Can you believe it?  I still have not received one word from the IRS stating the IRS audits have been completed.  It sure is taking a long time.  My guess is they are still at e-Bay getting totals for all those non-existent sales from 1998-2002.  It gets old hearing others keep repeating the tax investigation is complete!
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2009, 08:45:52 PM »

I have been comparing Remnant and 3ABN 990's and 3ABN's audit report.  I believe something isn't right. 

I will have to check this further to be sure.  Surely Remnant wouldn't "donate" the books to 3ABN, and 3ABN listed them as non-cash donations, and 3ABN listed them as assets until such a time as they could sell or give them away?

Why are no books listed, but only literature reported in 3ABN's Audit report as inventory? 

Remnant has sales of $ 2,288.506.00 and paid out $ 202,917.00 in Royalties.  These figures look reasonable and normal to me.  However, I noticed Remnant lists $1,607,913.00 in donations to donor advised funds.

Was something done to keep this off the books until after the IRS is complete with their investigation?  Did 3ABN just take possession of all the remaining books and list them as donated?  How will remnant get paid?  When they are sold or given away?  Did someone special pay for these non-cash items?

I am just thinking out loud, but something just doesn't slide right.

Writers are entitled to royalties on books they write.  This has never been the question at all!  The ruckus has been that 3ABN was not aware that Danny was receiving royalties, plus maybe an income off the sales.  Why were the royalties hidden from his wife and 3ABN.  He was definitely gaining at the cost of 3ABN donors!

3ABN can purchase as many books as they please and let the publisher pay royalties to the writer.  This is right and honest. But what happened with Remnant was not honest and above board!  I believe most of the fault would be in Danny's corner for hiding income and making a gain without being open with 3ABN!  Danny received free advertising at the expense of 3ABN!

I just do not believe at this point that all is open and above board.   I will get back later on the 3ABN figures listed next to Remnants.  Plus figures showing changes from year to year.  Until then it will be hard for anyone to see.   

By the way, is the company that remnant pays for their facilities a 501 (c) 3?  If not, can we get details on that company?  Is Remnant buying a facility at the expense of Remnant?  The listed income for the officers is rather small.  As long as they disclose this income on their tax returns, I have no comment.  There could be other reasons for Remnant paying a family member for the facilities.  I am just curious as to how this is handled.

Something is just not right!  Later.

I haven't compared the 990 with the financial statements.  I will say that the auditor was underpaid!  This is the most detailed report ever from 3ABN!

I marveled at his courage to spend the time he must have spent to be able to put the information together in a manner most will understand.

As always Paragraphs 2 brings the "except for statements" in paragraph 5.  Then in Paragraph 3 & 4 gets them on the foreign associations where they send money and expense what they sent without any accounting of the expenditures.

They still have problems with valuing assets.  Some are slow learners.  Pages 6-12 are very good.  I believe this shows where the accountant did double time!

The statements on page 13 clearly say the $ 1,065,030.36 comes from Cost of Goods given away-Other.  This does not include the $ 435,724.81 they gave away in satellite equipment.  I will have to go back and compare all of the Cost of Goods/Inventory for the past few years. 

What was it Shelley Quinn stated about over 7,000,000?  Surely she had to have said "printed" or "given away"since they gave them away for free.  I question where she received her information.  I need to compare Balance Sheets for Cost of Goods Sold/Inventory,  Their Inventory is  $ 534,208.94 at the end of 12/31/2007.

On page 7; paragraph h,. are the details of their inventory.  Books are not listed unless it is included under Literature.  Their inventory consists of Satellite Dishes, Receivers, Literature, & Music Compacts disks.  It is not broken down by $ amounts in each category.  However, Satellites and equipment is excluded from the $ 1,065,030.36.
 
I want them to know that I did notice that they are listing Fiduciary Funds/Money for other Ministries as a Liability now!  Finally, after all these years of screaming about how they are liabilities, not 3ABN income! 

However, I was disappointed to see that there was a balance of $ 14,894.28 in Liabilities that belongs to other ministries.   The total that went to 3ABN income in 2000 was $14,000+ also.  I would like to see monthly Financial Statements.  Dream on, huh!

Remember, however, there is no free lunch - ever! The donors paid Danny for them to be given away free!

This is as far as I have gotten here in my notes.  After Sabbath I will check these other things.  Because of the accounting of past years, I tend to doubt the validity of past audits done by 3ABN auditors.  This year is pleasingly different!

Is this Gary Hunter Stenn LLP new auditors?  If not, they sure did do a lot more this year.  Even though they still aren't doing things right, this firm is laying it all out there for everyone to understand!

Happy Sabbath.

Do we have a copy of Remnants 2007 990?  I would like a copy if anyone has it.  This will contribute to answering this question.

The last note I have to check out is found on page 10, #9, Donated Assets.  For 2007 there was $ 1,502,657.92.  "The assets are recorded at FMV and are included in contribution revenue."  The statement tells me this isn't right yet.   It looks like they are receipting the assets received for eBay sales and Barn Yard Sales!  Did they fix what was wrong? 

I will be trying to find out.  It is clear eBay and other Barn Yard Sales bring in quite a big chunk, and always have been. Now that they are being recorded it is clear to see it is very possible to sell 2 million as Tammy stated on air.  Remember from 1998-2002 they were no values on the books.  The stuff just sold, but of course there are no records at 3ABN of these sales!  I still wonder why they have no records of my purchases?  It is a good thing Merchant accounts can be tracked to get the dollar amounts of all of those sales.



I thought that, too, Fran.  But there isn't a big enough drop in inventory year-to-year to support that theory.



The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.

The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time. 




My thoughts & questions.

Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting?  Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge?  Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!


By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.

How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2009, 10:45:58 PM »

Question for anyone. Can you tell me what "Transfers" means here?

Remnant 2007 990, Part II, Pg 2, # 43 (b) "Other expenses not covered above (itemized)" shows Transfers of $ 897,032.What kind of expense would that be?

Part III; Pg 2; 2 (e) says: "Transfer of any part of its income or assets."  They checked "No" on 2 (e). 

Royalties are listed on line 43 (d) as $ 202,917.

Printing and publication expense:  Part II; Pg2; Line 38 is $ 1,084.570.

Sales: Part 1; pg 1; line2 $ 2,288,506.


Somebody needs to post this 990 for downloading for everyone.   It is hard when you can't see what others are talking about.

Previous years of 990's are on Save-3ABN.com.  http://www.save-3abn.com/3abn-form-990s.htm
Logged

Fran

  • Veteran Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 572
Re: 3ABN 2007 financial statement
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2009, 11:27:50 PM »

To be fair to Remnant, on previous 990's Remnant does have a line 43 (b) listing "Tithes and Transfers" and the total is nothing compared to the sum listed in 2007.

Transfers are/were:

2007  $ 897.032 tithe and transfers
2006  $ 200,331 tithe and transfers
2005  $ 192,623 tithe and transfers
2004  $   15,677 tithe and transfers
2003  $   27,596 tithe and transfers
2002  $     5,500   and lists as only tithe

Sales are/were:

2007 $ 2,288,506
2006 $ 4,316,011
2005 $ 1,228,662
2004 $ 2,009,825
2003 $    888.844
2002 $    743,348
2001 $    570,894
2000 $    721,476

Do you see the disparity in the figures.  It is surely easy to see before and after Danny Shelton!

Then there are those donated assets on the 3ABN books for (Audit report for 3ABN; Page10; # 9 Donated Assets) $1,502,657.92!   I need to talk to somebody.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up