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[SDAminister]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.

I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.

Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?

I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?

Johann,
I'm not asking what the report said or whether or not you were there. I'm simply asking you your opinion about what you believe.

Would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
Thanks!

[Johann]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.

I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.

Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?

I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?

Johann,
I'm not asking what the report said or whether or not you were there. I'm simply asking you your opinion about what you believe.

Would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
Thanks!

That answer seemed too obvious for me to state it. Just like most of the pastors in China, I would not accept it for myself. I do not know what the local conditions are in China, but I understood the governments in some parts of Communist Eastern Europe demanded some kind of spies or police presence in the church, something the church could not refuse.I am well satisfied the Lord never placed me in that situation where I have to face Communist dictators.

Are you praying the Lord will send you there so you can make all the important decisions for them?

[Johann]

Some time after we visited communist Poland we invited a Polish Adventist youth choir to Denmark, and they all got permission to travel. But we discovered there was one more person along than the original  membership of the choir.

At one point when I managed to be alone with the choir director for a while, he whispered to me that it seemed to them like the communist government had sent an agent along to keep a chck on them.

[Gregory]

A full, public, discussion of governmental agents who may have infiltrated tlhe SDA Church should probably not be a matter for public discussion.  The short answer is:  Yes, it has happened.  But, remember, God is in charge.  God can nulify any adverse effect of such agents, if God choses to do so.  Sometimes it has probably been done openly and with the knowledge of all.

E.G.  I participated in the invasion of the island of Grenada.  The SDA Church on the island had a very large elementary school--400 students, as I recall.  The Marxist government had required that the school place on their teaching faculty an agent of the government.  The response of the Adventists on the island was to go to the knees and ask God to nulify any adverse effect that the governmental agent might have.  The result ws that the SDA leadership believed that God had worked to see to it that the governmenetal agent did not have an adverse effect.  NOTE:  While I was on the island, I met with SDA leadership and obtained this informatin in personal conversations with SDA leadership.

Yes, I am aware of a situation in Europe where the SDA Church may have been infiltrated by a Communist agent and things may not have gone perfectly.

Yet, I am also aware of another situation where it is clear that God used a Communist agent to bring about what God wanted to happen which was a blessing to the SDA Chruch in that country.

[Johann]

We also worked in West Africa many years ago. In most of the countries there we were operating an extensive school system with many primary schools, some secondary schools and then some colleges. It was impossble to operate these schools without some government control.

When Kwame Nkruma became dictator in Ghana he suddenly required that in order to keep our schools it was a must that one of his agents could come and teach the students his political doctrines. The American Baptist Missionaries decided to close their schools rather than comply. Our people had an earnest season of prayer, and then they decided that all pupils and students wold have to take this instruction regardless if it was done at our schools or elsewhere. By complying they would still be able to teach the students other subjects in a Christian setting the rest of the week.

So the Adventist mission retained all of their schools even it they  had to allow a political teacher a class period each week. Within a few years dictator Nkruma was ousted while he went on a visit to another country. Then all  of our schools were operating while the American Bapist missionaries did not have a single school and no students they could work for. Starting new schools from scratch at that time seemed impossible.

It seemed like the Lord blessed our missionary work greatly in spite of the fact that it was necessary to comply with unreasonable official directives for a while.

Where should our own children and youth have gone to school if we had closed ours? They would have had to go to schools with no Adventist influence.

So we could also ask: Where should our people worship and receive spiritual nourishment in such countries if we close our churches rather than suffer some government inspection or infiltration?

Those are difficult questions. Some times people who are far away and do not have any responsibility think they have all the answers.

[SDAminister]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.

I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.

Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?

I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?

Johann,
I'm not asking what the report said or whether or not you were there. I'm simply asking you your opinion about what you believe.

Would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?
Thanks!

That answer seemed too obvious for me to state it. Just like most of the pastors in China, I would not accept it for myself. I do not know what the local conditions are in China, but I understood the governments in some parts of Communist Eastern Europe demanded some kind of spies or police presence in the church, something the church could not refuse.I am well satisfied the Lord never placed me in that situation where I have to face Communist dictators.

Are you praying the Lord will send you there so you can make all the important decisions for them?

Johann,
No, I'm not praying that the Lord will send me there----again. I've already spent years of my life in China as a General Conference missionary! Add to that the time I've worked for our church in various countries of the ex-Soviet Bloc and I can say I've got a pretty good grasp of what's going on.

You said that the answer seemed to obvious to state, and yet you might be surprised to learn that many in our church are rather comfortable with such a thought.
http://www.adventistworld.org/article/598/resources/english/issue-2009-1008/finding-faith-in-china

I completely understand Gregory's ignorance to the fact of my deep familiarity with China. This is probably why he attempted to elucidate me like he did.
One point of his is, unfortunately, false 
"4) The Communist Party does not Ordain anyone.  The Communist Part is not a religious organization."

In fact, the Communist Party does ordain pastors within the SDA church. I wouldn't dare you trust my word for it but rather one of your own (i.e. pro-women's ordination). President Jan Paulsen in the above article clearly states (with my emphasis)
"...and the fact is we don’t have true control over who is ordained. Technically, the CCC [the state-regulated China Christian Council] has the final say, but the decision is usually made in consultation with the local Adventist congregation."

A note of clarification. The CCC is not just "state-regulated". It is in itself an organ of the state. (Would a person say that the FBI is "state-regulated"?) It is, simply put, an intelligence directive which, along with its sister organization the Three Self Patriotic Movement, which the Communist Party uses to mold, shape, and control the expression of Christianity by their own terms in order to further the objectives of the Communist State. It is, in effect, a "perfect" melding of church and state.

Now we have these kinds of pastors (male and female), ordained by the state, going around and ordaining others yet calling it ordination by "Adventists." Indeed, in effect, the article you shared refers to such kind of organization as "apostolic". What a crock!

And this is the kind of propaganda that we deal with back here in the US. Most, like you and Gregory, don't know what you don't know. When a conference president chairs a church business meeting and shows videos of the church in China and how great and grand these women pastors are and then calls for an immediate vote on having women elders well, it's just too bad that all the info couldn't have been heard so that people could make an informed choice. You know, truth can lose nothing by close investigation.

If people want to have such an arrangement (outside organizations ordaining pastors within our church) then let them. But forgive me if I do protest.

This is not to say that great things aren't happening in China. But is this not perhaps similar to the Dark Ages and the age of persecution? In the persecuted centuries after Christ, Christians were finally given freedom to worship. Hooray! But then, a force came in under the guise of calling itself "Christian" and started to clamp down rather handily on those true believers. Is the same thing happening in China?


SDAminister

p.s. Gregory wrote: "If you knew your history, you would know that during the Cold War, the Communist governments in at least one country of the Soviet Union exercised great control over the SDA Chrucn in that country, even more than what is the case in China. "
So true, and yet if you also knew your history, you'd know that Communist governments exercised great control over the SDA church in many countries in the decades that preceded the Cold War.

p.p.s. Johann, you mentioned that back in '75 you met a female delegate from Russia. I'm curious as to which SDA church she belonged. That is, did she belong to the True and Free SDA church or just the regular SDA church?

[Gregory]

SDA Minister:
1) I clearly do not know of your denominational background and your experience in China.  You write under a pen-name, which is your right and I do not object to you doing so.  As a result, none of us really know much about you and your background.  As a matter of fact, there are a number of us here who have suspected you were a certain person, who has no background in China and has never been employed by the General Conference.  Your statement tells me that everyone who so thought was wrong.

2) You state: 

In fact, the Communist Party does ordain pastors within the SDA church. I wouldn't dare you trust my word for it but rather one of your own (i.e. pro-women's ordination). President Jan Paulsen in the above article clearly states (with my emphasis)
"...and the fact is we don’t have true control over who is ordained. Technically, the CCC [the state-regulated China Christian Council] has the final say, but the decision is usually made in consultation with the local Adventist congregation."

I have never denied that is some cases an agency of the Chinese government in China approves those who become ordained SDA Clergy.

There is a major difference between saying that someone is approved by the government and in saying that the government itself ordains that person.  Your statement, to which I objected, was to the effect that the Chinese government ordains SDA Clergy.  I do not believe that for one minute.  I welcome your correction.  If you tell me that this Chinese government has had public (or private) ceremonies in which candidates whom they picked, were ordained by the government, I will have to reevaulate my understanding.

I am well aware that in some countries the SDA Church does not have the freedoms that we have in the U.S.  I am aware of a democratic (not Communist) country where the government exercises much control over our college in that country, to include how students are selected to attend.  This control extends to great oversight over our Theology program in that country.  The result of this control is that the college has a very large number of non-SDA students who attend.  The result is that the denomination has learned to live with this control.  The denominational leadership in that country believes that they are well able to do what God wants them to do.

Frankly, now that you have told us that you have experience in China I welcome your comments as being insightful and as contributing to my overall knowledge. But, if you meant to say that  in some cases, the  Chinese government approves who is ordaines, I will suggest that you exercise greater care in how you state such.  To approve is not to ordain.  That is what I argued agains.

NOTE:  It is not unusual for me to find that I did not fully think through a statement that I was making and that I needed to clairfy it later. 
So my comment about exercising greater care applies to me as well.   

[Johann]

p.p.s. Johann, you mentioned that back in '75 you met a female delegate from Russia. I'm curious as to which SDA church she belonged. That is, did she belong to the True and Free SDA church or just the regular SDA church?

Consider this is 37 years ago. I still see the shape of the lady before me - not too slim. Long modest dress.  Her knowledge of English seemed fair, but not complete. . I did already state previously that she said some of her fellow believers thought it was wrong of her to have that much to do with the government that she asked for travel documents to go to Vienna. But she had such a deep urge to meet fellow believers from other countries that she lowered herself so much that she applied for travel documents from the atheistic government.

It is possible to do a lot of speculation on the basis of this limited knowledge.  But is it essential? Had she broken the high standards of her fellow believers by having this "unholy" relationship with the government? Might they not accept her back into their fellowship on her return to Russia? Did they required repentance and re-baptism for her traveling venture?

To me this indicates that she came from the independent church, but was afraid they might dis-fellowship her as a punishment for her travels. What do you think? Should she have stayed home? Or might she have joined the approved churh for a while just to get the  travel documents? I have never thought of her in terms of it being  my responsibility to evaluate her standing to see if she was legitimate or not. I just considered her a sister in the the faith, regardless, since she had a desire to join us at the meetings.

PS. As far as I remember she was an official delegate at the GC session.

[Johann]

I was originally ordained, first as a local elder, and then as a minister in Denmark. With that ordination I have functioned in several other countries without any further ordination.

This included Norway, but here I had to be registered with the government as the pastor of a certain church. That registration with the government made me an official who had the license to marry people with the authority of the government.

Since the government had to authorize my ordination, was I then really ordained by the government? After I moved away from Norway the conference had to notify the government I was no longer a pastor in Norway, and thus the Norwegian government dis-ordained me so I no longer have permission to marry people there, not even if I make a special application. I am fully dis-ordained by the government of Norway.

This did not prevent me from traveling to California after I had moved back to Denmark, and marry a couple there during a short visit. I made an inquiry to find out if my signature on the marriage certificate was legitimate, and was told that as long as I was ordained by a church, the state of California accepted my signature, even if I was not registered there, nor the pastor of a local church.

You see there is a difference in various places. Does the situation in Norway with government controlled ordination make such an ordination questionable to faithful Adventists elsewhere?

How about if an ordained female pastor from China travels to California, would she be able to perform a wedding in California? By government standards? By church standards?

Could anyone forbid that pastor from China baptizing a relative in a lake in California? Should a local church be "punished" if it accepts that person baptized by a Chinese female pasto,r as a member in full and regular standing?

Or an Adventist moving from China to America?

[Gregory]

Government approval of ordination:


I once lived in a State in the United States where all clergy had to be approved by the government in order to perform legally recognized marriages.  An interesting situation occured because of this.  At the time my Father married again, after the death of my mother, he and his intended came to the city where I lived so I could do the wedding.  Well, I was not eligible to be authorized by the government, at that time.  So, I made arrangements for another SDA minister to participate and actually sign the government documents that made the marriage legal.

Well, the government checked to see if that SDA minister was legally authorized by the State to celebrate marriage.  He was not.  He had not applied to the State for permission and he was not legally authorized to perform marriages.  He got in trouble.  My Father's marriage was made in ""Good faith" so the State recognized it.  But they went after the milnister who did it.  (No, he did nto go to jail.)  Shortly thereafter the Conference sent an urgent message to all of its clergy informing them that they did not have autorization to perform marriages until they had applied to the State and been recognized by the State.

NOTE:  When I becam eligible, I applied for permission and wsa granted permission.  But, prior to giving me that permission I had to purchase, at my expense, an liability bond that assured that I would comply with the requirements of the State in any marriages that I performed.  I had to pay a fee each year to keep that bond in effect.

[Bob Pickle]

Somehow Norwegian and a U.S. state's requirement that a minister register before performing marriages sounds different than the Chinese government deciding who gets ordained and who does not. A refusal by Norway or a U.S. state to allow a minister to marry people does not mean that that minister is no longer ordained.

[Artiste]

none of us really know much about you and your background

How are you able to speak for everyone here, Gregory?  I don't recall your taking a survey to check on what you state above as fact.

[Gregory]

Good point.  Perhaps the majority know much about SDA Minister.  Maybe, even I know more than I thought.    

[Gregory]

Bob, you are correct.  In the U.S. marriage has both a civil and a religious function.  Government as a right to regulate the civil function.

[Johann]

Somehow Norwegian and a U.S. state's requirement that a minister register before performing marriages sounds different than the Chinese government deciding who gets ordained and who does not. A refusal by Norway or a U.S. state to allow a minister to marry people does not mean that that minister is no longer ordained.

There are usually two sides on a coin. There are differences and similarities in the situation in USA and China. Which are important and which are not will be a personal decision of the individual.