Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => Womens Ordination & Related Issues => Topic started by: Artiste on June 30, 2012, 07:11:14 AM
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Church Leaders Issue an Appeal for Unity Over Women's Ordination
Read all about it over at Advindicate:
http://advindicate.com/?p=1551
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This appeal came out yesterday on "The Adventist News Network".
As might be expected, there is already a lot of negative comment over it.
Just one example from Spectrum comments:
It's time for unions and their member constituencies to deliver this "appeal" back to Ted Wilson with a vote of "no confidence"
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The Spectrum article made no sense to me when it tried to say that the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes were not a vote against women's ordination. It might be like a kid asking Dad if he could have a candy bar, and Dad denying the request, and then the kid getting one anyway since Dad never said he couldn't have one.
Just because Dad said no to the request to have a candy bar rather than saying, "You can't have a candy bar," doesn't mean that Dad never said he couldn't have one. Similarly, just because the GC Sessions voted down a request to ordain women rather than saying, "You can't ordain women," doesn't mean that the GC Sessions never said you can't ordain women.
To carry the illustration a little further, suppose the kid realizes after Dad said no that he never really had to ask Dad anyway. Would that mean he can get a candy bar anyway? Or suppose he realizes that he should have asked Mom instead of Dad. Would that make a difference? I don't think so.
And it seems peculiar for grown adults to be playing these kind of games, to be coming up with these kind of excuses and rationalizations, especially among a crown that considers itself the intelligentisia.
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The Spectrum article made no sense to me when it tried to say that the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes were not a vote against women's ordination. It might be like a kid asking Dad if he could have a candy bar, and Dad denying the request, and then the kid getting one anyway since Dad never said he couldn't have one.
Just because Dad said no to the request to have a candy bar rather than saying, "You can't have a candy bar," doesn't mean that Dad never said he couldn't have one. Similarly, just because the GC Sessions voted down a request to ordain women rather than saying, "You can't ordain women," doesn't mean that the GC Sessions never said you can't ordain women.
To carry the illustration a little further, suppose the kid realizes after Dad said no that he never really had to ask Dad anyway. Would that mean he can get a candy bar anyway? Or suppose he realizes that he should have asked Mom instead of Dad. Would that make a difference? I don't think so.
And it seems peculiar for grown adults to be playing these kind of games, to be coming up with these kind of excuses and rationalizations, especially among a crown that considers itself the intelligentisia.
Comparing this serious issue to a kids game makes little sense. We are talking about the Church of God, Who is the Creator of Heaven and Earth.
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This appeal came out yesterday on "The Adventist News Network".
As might be expected, there is already a lot of negative comment over it.
Just one example from Spectrum comments:
It's time for unions and their member constituencies to deliver this "appeal" back to Ted Wilson with a vote of "no confidence"
Since Dan Jackson was included among the 13 Division Presidents that were in concurrence with the "appeal to unions", it takes a little of the ammunition away from the Spectrumites, I think.
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I am amazed at the fervor of the male constituency that are pushing women's ordination. The strange thing about it is that I see very few women commenting online with that same strength of conviction.
It's another reason to make me think that men are trying to push their jobs off onto women so they don't have to work so hard.
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I am amazed at the fervor of the male constituency that are pushing women's ordination. The strange thing about it is that I see very few women commenting online with that same strength of conviction.
It's another reason to make me think that men are trying to push their jobs off onto women so they don't have to work so hard.
A couple of the female pastors I have talked to have given me their reasons for not participating in these discussions. They are very much engaged in working for the Lord and feel they have no time dealing with the "stupid" arguments from boring people who make distortions of Scripture.
Since there are not many retired female pastors around, they leave the discussions to weatherbeaten, experienced, retired male pastors with less physical strength left, but are still otherwise alert and not too old to use the Internet.
Resistance? Yesterday I was talking to a "young" man who said he is considering retiring. I taught his father both in primary and secondary school a "few" years ago.
Then we got to talk about his uncle who was still his hero. His uncle was riding his motorcycle during World War II, when the American military came to this country. At that time we had left hand driving, but some of those American soldiers insisted on doing it the American way, driving on the right hand side of the road. As a result his uncle lost a leg and was awarded an invalid pension.
You cannot always do things the American way, even if you may think that is the only way you know how to do things. There are times when you may have to take local conditions into consideration. Christianity existed in this part of the world several centuries before Columbus discovered America. Long before that Roman soldiers forced their way to the North killing or maiming those who insisted on keeping the seventh-day Sabbath and ordaining their female pastors. They enforced the Roman way on us. Some of us prefer to serve our Lord with heart and soul and return to the Apostolic teachings. But some of you refuse to listen and consider.
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The Spectrum article made no sense to me when it tried to say that the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes were not a vote against women's ordination. It might be like a kid asking Dad if he could have a candy bar, and Dad denying the request, and then the kid getting one anyway since Dad never said he couldn't have one.
Just because Dad said no to the request to have a candy bar rather than saying, "You can't have a candy bar," doesn't mean that Dad never said he couldn't have one. Similarly, just because the GC Sessions voted down a request to ordain women rather than saying, "You can't ordain women," doesn't mean that the GC Sessions never said you can't ordain women.
To carry the illustration a little further, suppose the kid realizes after Dad said no that he never really had to ask Dad anyway. Would that mean he can get a candy bar anyway? Or suppose he realizes that he should have asked Mom instead of Dad. Would that make a difference? I don't think so.
And it seems peculiar for grown adults to be playing these kind of games, to be coming up with these kind of excuses and rationalizations, especially among a crown that considers itself the intelligentsia.
Comparing this serious issue to a kids game makes little sense. We are talking about the Church of God, Who is the Creator of Heaven and Earth.
The problem is that in this serious issue, those who are pushing for women's ordination are acting like spoiled children or rebellious teenagers.
Be that as it may, please respond to the points I raised. You ignored them instead.
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A couple of the female pastors I have talked to have given me their reasons for not participating in these discussions.
I do not recall you responding to my question earlier. In Norway a lot of the women elders seem to wear necklaces, and thus seem to be opposed to Seventh-day Adventist teachings. These female pastors you refer to, do they abstain from the wearing of necklaces and other jewelery?
And since you call them pastors, do they visit their flock and engage in personal labor, including helping their members realize that the Bible calls for them to abstain from wearing jewelry?
I hope you can answer both of these questions with a "Yes."
You cannot always do things the American way, even if you may think that is the only way you know how to do things. There are times when you may have to take local conditions into consideration. Christianity existed in this part of the world several centuries before Columbus discovered America. Long before that Roman soldiers forced their way to the North killing or maiming those who insisted on keeping the seventh-day Sabbath and ordaining their female pastors. They enforced the Roman way on us. Some of us prefer to serve our Lord with heart and soul and return to the Apostolic teachings. But some of you refuse to listen and consider.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Johann, I appeal to you to return to Apostolic teachings on this issue, and to abandon the Roman Catholic practice of exalting culture and tradition above the plain, simple Word of God!
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A couple of the female pastors I have talked to have given me their reasons for not participating in these discussions.
I do not recall you responding to my question earlier. In Norway a lot of the women elders seem to wear necklaces, and thus seem to be opposed to Seventh-day Adventist teachings. These female pastors you refer to, do they abstain from the wearing of necklaces and other jewelery?
Yes, I have responded, so you do not read everything. But this gives the opportunity to say a little more. I have not made it my profession to be scrutinizing how women are dressed or look at their intimate parts. Perhaps that is your delight? I never make an attempt to count necklaces. I prefer to find ways to bring a person to Jesus Christ as a savior. I have known pastors who thought the only way to bring a person to Christ was to place their jewelry in the offering plate to benefit some church project.
Yes, as a pastor one has to deal with unpleasant experiences. Such as a woman who would never get anywhere near any jewelry, but she had this problem with men, even though she already had one. She was a tithe-paying vegetarian, at least when other church members were around. But the sight of a good looking male with a feasible income - all done in secret - was too great a temptation for her. But she was certain the Lord forgave her for that since she wore no jewelry.
She taught me to look for other tings than jewelry as I, as a pastor, look into the face of a woman. Neither do I look at her as a toy or a plaything, like some of your friends, that you seem to be defending, seem to delight in.
No, I have not seen any jewelry on the female pastors I have spoken to.
And since you call them pastors, do they visit their flock and engage in personal labor, including helping their members realize that the Bible calls for them to abstain from wearing jewelry?
Yes, I know they are too busy visiting their flock to deal with the filth you are racking up to the surface. But I am not their president, they do not have to give an account to me of the intimate conversations with their sisters.
I hope you can answer both of these questions with a "Yes."
Who has made you the judge to see who will be saved or not from outward appearance?
You cannot always do things the American way, even if you may think that is the only way you know how to do things. There are times when you may have to take local conditions into consideration. Christianity existed in this part of the world several centuries before Columbus discovered America. Long before that Roman soldiers forced their way to the North killing or maiming those who insisted on keeping the seventh-day Sabbath and ordaining their female pastors. They enforced the Roman way on us. Some of us prefer to serve our Lord with heart and soul and return to the Apostolic teachings. But some of you refuse to listen and consider.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
So you think you can use this text to ascertain if you can forgive Ellen G White for breaking this commandment? Do you have doubts she will make it for haven? Or have you given her an exemption because she was a prophet? Are you the only righteous judge in these matters?
Johann, I appeal to you to return to Apostolic teachings on this issue, and to abandon the Roman Catholic practice of exalting culture and tradition above the plain, simple Word of God!
Bob, I think I am heeding this advise, especially these days by pleading with you to join me at the cross of Jesus Christ, listen to Him speaking to you, taking the warning of Paul who really calls you an "idiot" for relying on your own outward tokens for salvation. (Galatians)
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I could remind you that, unfortunately, we have had reformers who were convinced that even a natural red hair on a woman was a sure sign she was associated with demons. A number of those were burned at the stake, drowned, beheaded or executed by hanging. Other tokens were also taken as proof of being a witch. These executions increased greatly after the Reformation, if not exclusively.
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We hear that Charles Bradford was (a legendary African American SDA evangelist and leader) asking if the church should not have waited until the end of Apartheid in South Africa (in 1994) before ordaining Black pastors in America. Isn't that the problem with waiting, waiting, waiting?
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I hope you can answer both of these questions with a "Yes."
Who has made you the judge to see who will be saved or not from outward appearance?
I said nothing about being saved. What I was asking about was a Seventh-day Adventist standard, which is supported by the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. Are you opposed to that standard? If so, why?
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
So you think you can use this text to ascertain if you can forgive Ellen G White for breaking this commandment? Do you have doubts she will make it for haven? Or have you given her an exemption because she was a prophet? Are you the only righteous judge in these matters?
You're being unreasonable. You stated that you were returning top Apostolic teachings, and yet when an Apostolic teaching is quoted to you, you try to justify ignoring or rejecting it by the irrelevant point that Ellen White was a prophet.
Bob, I think I am heeding this advise, especially these days by pleading with you to join me at the cross of Jesus Christ, listen to Him speaking to you, taking the warning of Paul who really calls you an "idiot" for relying on your own outward tokens for salvation. (Galatians)
I respectfully request an apology from you for calling me an idiot, and for falsely asserting that I am relying on outward tokens for salvation when I have made no such statements.
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Bob, I think I am heeding this advise, especially these days by pleading with you to join me at the cross of Jesus Christ, listen to Him speaking to you, taking the warning of Paul who really calls you an "idiot" for relying on your own outward tokens for salvation. (Galatians)
I respectfully request an apology from you for calling me an idiot, and for falsely asserting that I am relying on outward tokens for salvation when I have made no such statements.
The apostle Paul has this to say to people who have a certain way of interpreting Scripture: "You Galatian idiots (Greek), who has bewitched you. . . ?" (3:1)
Are you telling the Lord not to let Paul get a way with this? Your demands on others, how they are to judge everybody because of the way some people dress, the way I perceive it, come so mighty close to saying that you depend on outward tokens for salvation, that I have a real hard time understanding them any different.
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A couple of the female pastors I have talked to have given me their reasons for not participating in these discussions.
I do not recall you responding to my question earlier. In Norway a lot of the women elders seem to wear necklaces, and thus seem to be opposed to Seventh-day Adventist teachings. These female pastors you refer to, do they abstain from the wearing of necklaces and other jewelery?
Yes, I have responded, so you do not read everything. But this gives the opportunity to say a little more. I have not made it my profession to be scrutinizing how women are dressed or look at their intimate parts. Perhaps that is your delight? I never make an attempt to count necklaces. I prefer to find ways to bring a person to Jesus Christ as a savior. I have known pastors who thought the only way to bring a person to Christ was to place their jewelry in the offering plate to benefit some church project.
Yes, as a pastor one has to deal with unpleasant experiences. Such as a woman who would never get anywhere near any jewelry, but she had this problem with men, even though she already had one. She was a tithe-paying vegetarian, at least when other church members were around. But the sight of a good looking male with a feasible income - all done in secret - was too great a temptation for her. But she was certain the Lord forgave her for that since she wore no jewelry.
She taught me to look for other tings than jewelry as I, as a pastor, look into the face of a woman. Neither do I look at her as a toy or a plaything, like some of your friends, that you seem to be defending, seem to delight in.
No, I have not seen any jewelry on the female pastors I have spoken to.
And since you call them pastors, do they visit their flock and engage in personal labor, including helping their members realize that the Bible calls for them to abstain from wearing jewelry?
Yes, I know they are too busy visiting their flock to deal with the filth you are racking up to the surface. But I am not their president, they do not have to give an account to me of the intimate conversations with their sisters.
I hope you can answer both of these questions with a "Yes."
Who has made you the judge to see who will be saved or not from outward appearance?
You cannot always do things the American way, even if you may think that is the only way you know how to do things. There are times when you may have to take local conditions into consideration. Christianity existed in this part of the world several centuries before Columbus discovered America. Long before that Roman soldiers forced their way to the North killing or maiming those who insisted on keeping the seventh-day Sabbath and ordaining their female pastors. They enforced the Roman way on us. Some of us prefer to serve our Lord with heart and soul and return to the Apostolic teachings. But some of you refuse to listen and consider.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
So you think you can use this text to ascertain if you can forgive Ellen G White for breaking this commandment? Do you have doubts she will make it for haven? Or have you given her an exemption because she was a prophet? Are you the only righteous judge in these matters?
Johann, I appeal to you to return to Apostolic teachings on this issue, and to abandon the Roman Catholic practice of exalting culture and tradition above the plain, simple Word of God!
Bob, I think I am heeding this advise, especially these days by pleading with you to join me at the cross of Jesus Christ, listen to Him speaking to you, taking the warning of Paul who really calls you an "idiot" for relying on your own outward tokens for salvation. (Galatians)
Johann, your reasoning is very distorted, two wrongs don't make a right. You use the same argument that will dam a million to the lake of fire if they don't by Gods Grace overcome. The fact that the lady fell pray to sin is no justification for sin neither does it make her argument any less solid. And I can bet with my very soul that you too have succumb to sin though it may not be in the light. I have preach for over 20 plus years and I can tell you that in that time I have been expose to men and women with different propensities towards different sins. I never lessened their words or commitment or force behind what they said because they fell into sin. You remind me of the man that followed after David when he fled from his son Absalom in the wilderness, I am sure you know what his fate was. He threw stones at David and recounted Davids sin and what about that man what was his fate? When you are living in a glass house don't you throw no stones. I learned quickly that no matter what a persons failures or faults the truth is based on the word of God. The Bible makes it plain and clear ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD, that goes for you and I. Instead I used their mistakes as a way to first of all show them love and secondly to avoid the same pitfalls. I never once saw them in any less light than I had before. I often remember the scripture where the bible says that Satan stool up against David and caused him to number the children of Israel. None of us have the strenght when we stand alone to stand up against satan. She was right to think that jewelry was wrong and to believe that God forgave her just as God has forgiven you.
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Bob, I think I am heeding this advise, especially these days by pleading with you to join me at the cross of Jesus Christ, listen to Him speaking to you, taking the warning of Paul who really calls you an "idiot" for relying on your own outward tokens for salvation. (Galatians)
I respectfully request an apology from you for calling me an idiot, and for falsely asserting that I am relying on outward tokens for salvation when I have made no such statements.
The apostle Paul has this to say to people who have a certain way of interpreting Scripture: "You Galatian idiots (Greek), who has bewitched you. . . ?" (3:1)
Are you telling the Lord not to let Paul get a way with this? Your demands on others, how they are to judge everybody because of the way some people dress, the way I perceive it, come so mighty close to saying that you depend on outward tokens for salvation, that I have a real hard time understanding them any different.
Johann,
I never said anything about judging anyone.
The question I raised was regarding a Seventh-day Adventist, biblical, and SoP standard, that of abstaining from wearing jewelry. For some strange reason, there are lady elders in Norway who refuse to abide by that standard. If they can't bring themselves to abide by that standard, I don't see how they can serve in that capacity any more than Danny Shelton can serve as a director of 3ABN.
But saying such is not judging. Rather than saying whether they will go to heaven or not, it's just stating the simple fact that individuals who refuse to follow Seventh-day Adventist principles shouldn't be put into church offices.
The question should really be asked: Why aren't you more supportive regarding the Seventh-day Adventist standard of not wearing jewelry?
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Instead I used their mistakes as a way to first of all show them love and secondly to avoid the same pitfalls.
REfresh my memory. What did you say in regard to Johann and the Jesuists?
Was what you said an example of you showing love?
Was what you said an example of integrity?
Answer "yes" toboth questions and I will accept yout answer as to how you perciee God and the character of God.
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Gregory,
Do you not remember the whole episode of Bob being directly called a Jesuit by Johann way back in posts??? I know I'm butting in but this is ridiculous questioning what your asking here, when Bob has been out right called a Jesuit and nobody shut anybody down over that and now you asking Bob these questions? am I greatly mistaken here??? Let me refresh your memory because I thought that episode was pretty shocking from Johann and now his true character coming into focus by featuring all absurd other religious views that is not our own. Bobs character as not changed as far as I can see. He simply mentioned the actions of Jesuits.
Why is not your question to the other that called Bob a Jesuit? and why was he allowed to do that? nothing erased there!!! SDA is not Catholism,
SDA is not Jesuit belief and SDA is not a reformer of SDA reformers. At least a true SDA is non of the above. only actions can tell and the writers of it-- is how you can tell.
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gregory, adsolutly I was not only showing love but telling the truth. All of these attemps to redefine the church are jesuit like and Satanic plus plus it is just not right.
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Tinka, I could be wrong as my memory of the event is not very good. but, I thought that I responded to Bob being called a Jesuit.
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Christian, it is totally fair for you to argue the truth or falsity of Johann's position. But, when you begin to attack the person, you simply present yourself in a very weak manner. E.G. Let us say that Johann is a Jesuit, so what. l his being a Jesuit would be a point of interest, but it would be a desive point as to the validity of his position on women, or anything else.
At best, your comments about Johann and the Jesuit order can be said to be unfounded and unsubstantiated. I would go futher to say that they are false. You would argue that. You do not present God as a God of love when you argue points that are false and unfounded. God is a God of intregity. The battle here on earth has been from the beginning a conflict between the lies of Saten and the truth of God.
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Ok, I see where I goofed it. It was Christian that gave the same opinion as I did and you were addressing him and his comment.
But for a fact Bob was called a Jesuit right out with no repercussions from anyone until now, I think I even commented to Christians post that I agreed with him.
I don't like parleying with an advocate of tear down SDA either.
So as Christian got back I realized who you asked. Sorry for mistake But the other fact did happen.
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Johann
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Re: Bob Pickle... a Jesuit?
« Reply #127 on: July 26, 2011, 02:56:22 PM »
I have an[..] opinion that Bob Pickle, and Danny Shelton, are as much Jesuits as I am. Does that make sense?
Fortunately there are records of what has been written. Did I really call Bob Pickle a Jesuit here? See for yourself.
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You picked up the best post that applied. The rest are direct. Guess anyone can go to that thread and read for their self. unless it is able to be erased. and that I suspect will happen.
The only think I see there now is where Bob asking "How can I be a Jesuit"? with Mercelago explaining what a Jesuit is.
But don't see posts where stating that Jesuits undermine and filtrate churches for their own agendas. That is how a true Jesuit works for Catholism and Johann claiming SDA filtrated with their beliefs. So is Bob that?? or just how indirectly were you coming in back door of accusation.