Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Gregory on March 11, 2008, 02:23:27 AM
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On March 4, 2008, Jerrie M. Hayes, acting on behalf of 3-ABN and Danny Shelton caused a subpoena to be issued to Bluehost, Inc. of Orem, UT demanding records and information relating to some 14 pepole who had posted on Advent Talk. Blue Host is the Web host for Advent Talk. As of the latest information that I have, Blue Host has not yet been properly served with the subpoena. That is expected to be effected shortly. I am one of those people about whom they desire information. I telephoned Mr. Hayes late last night and left him a telephone message. In that message I left him an e-mail address for me and told him that if he wanted to talk to me he could contact me at that e-mail address. I am going to attempt to post the subpoena below.
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I seem to not know how to post the subponea.
The following 14 peopole are listed in the subponea:
Child of the king
Chrissie
Inga
Artiste
Sonshineonme
Daryl Fawcett
Sister
Johann
Ozzie
Gregory
Snoopy
Soul Expresso
Bonnie
Fran
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We have long known that the Children of God will be brought before courts. We did not know that such things would be initiated by the founder of an Adventist Ministry. The Lord has promised that He is still with us, and he will sustain us and give us what is needed in such trials.
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We have long known that the Children of God will be brought before courts. We did not know that such things would be initiated by the founder of an Adventist Ministry. The Lord has promised that He is still with us, and he will sustain us and give us what is needed in such trials.
Daddy always told me to never fear those without, it is those within. He explained "christians" going after christians as
"When the christians begin eating the lions, it is time to watch out"
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Well, if nothing else the announcement generated a lot of interest. 66 hits in the short time since posted.
If they want to fish in my pond for information, I hope they have the foresight to bring a lunch. :ROFL:
This pond is pretty empty
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It's an intimidation technique, plain and simple.
It's a list of top posters, with some conspicuous omissions (in brackets below). These are the current top posters as listed in the statistics page.
1 Daryl Fawcett
2 Johann
3 Chrissie
4 Artiste
5 [Gailon]
6 Ozzie
7 [Bob Pickle]
8 Snoopy
9 Inga
10 Bonnie
11 Sister
12 [GrandmaNettie]
13 [JR Layman]
14 [ImaAnt]
15 [Hakim]
16 Sonshineonme
17 Soul Expresso
18 [Patsi]
19 [Dillon]
20 Fran
25 Gregory
31 Child of the king
Note that Gailon and Bob are already being sued, thus not listed. Sonshineonme, Soul Expresso, Fran and Gregory really haven't posted much (far down on the list), but they are known from BlackSDA.
Some in the frequent poster list have only recently joined us, or they've written little about 3ABN. Some may have registered after February 13, which is the last date anyone on the list registered. (It's reasonable to assume it took 2 weeks to get the subpoena ready.)
Others are clearly on the 3ABN side, and one of them may be the source of this interesting list. (Is my information correct that these stats are not available to lurkers?)
The really surprising poster on the list "childoftheking" with only three posts -- all of them innocuous. Perhaps its the inquiry about PayPal, suggesting financial support, that made this poster qualify for the list?
This is a downright dirty, nasty move, and a transparent attempt to silence posters.
I'm also wondering what is necessary on a subpoena to make it legal to invade the privacy of citizens? Can anyone just capriciously demand personal information without good reason?
Perhaps we have reached an important milestone? This board is recognized as having significant influence in the great scheme of things?? :dunno:
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If nothing else, this provides new material to publish on the many versions of the original save3abn.com web sites. ;D
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Hey, I want to get on that list! If I say "Danny Sheldon is a JERK" would they sue me too? FWIW His former wife....is, IMO a sweet Christian lady.... she should be happy to have gotten rid of such a JERK!
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I don't think the object is to want to get on the list. I think this list is meant to intimidate,not to want to take part.
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Well, if nothing else the announcement generated a lot of interest. 66 hits in the short time since posted.
If they want to fish in my pond for information, I hope they have the foresight to bring a lunch. :ROFL:
This pond is pretty empty
My fish are dead, so they'll be wasting time there too. :ROFL:
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Well, if nothing else the announcement generated a lot of interest. 66 hits in the short time since posted.
Maybe they were having a slack day at the office and needed something to do. :scratch: Desperate people do desperate things. Seems like DS is really grasping at straws here.
Poor man. I guess we should be feeling sorry for such a person who can find nothing better to do than to try to identify 'posters' to various Discussion groups. He also needs our prayers as this just demonstrates how sick spiritually, he is, that he (+3abn) would waste more of donors hard earned $s in attempts to go after other Christians. :praying: Wonder what his excuse will be this time?
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Well, if nothing else the announcement generated a lot of interest. 66 hits in the short time since posted.
Maybe they were having a slack day at the office and needed something to do. :scratch: Desperate people do desperate things. Seems like DS is really grasping at straws here.
Poor man. I guess we should be feeling sorry for such a person who can find nothing better to do than to try to identify 'posters' to various Discussion groups. He also needs our prayers as this just demonstrates how sick spiritually, he is, that he (+3abn) would waste more of donors hard earned $s in attempts to go after other Christians. :praying: Wonder what his excuse will be this time?
Guess I am a little dumbfounded. I have never hidden, everyone knows where to find me. Maybe if they asked I would have re-affirmed that information for them instead of them playing L.A. law at donors expense.
Can someone explain why this would be honored. "I don't like what is said, and now I will try force to get your private information" I have never seen DS or 3ABN threatened so what is the big deal. If they "feel someone has slandered or libeled them,why go after so many. Unless of course simple dislike and a opinion of what you read and hear from 3ABN probably is considered libel
Maybe we should all begin to genuflect before posting least we annoy or irritate those that think they are above critisim
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Bonnie, I don't believe that DS & 3ABN are trying to get information from us. If they did, they know where to find a number of us.
However Danny (aka AppleTree) and his supporters have, for months, hinted at law suits aimed at various posters. This is a "shot across the bow" of those posters to "cease and desist." The threat is that if we do not, we will find ourselves at the wrong end of a law suit.
The law suit need not have any merit whatsoever. However, it costs money to defend oneself against various frivolous charges and motions -- as Joy and Pickle are experiencing.
This is the classic way by which the rich and powerful regularly abuse the (relatively) poor and powerless.
I find it interesting that the subpoena is to be served to BlueHost, who presumably have no real interest to oppose the subpoena. Are they afraid that if they served the owner of the domain name or the web site, they might run into some opposition.
However, we can let BlueHost know that if they do not oppose a subpoena served for frivolous reasons, we will let the hosting community know about this. In my next post, I will post relevant contact information.
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Bonnie, I don't believe that DS & 3ABN are trying to get information from us. If they did, they know where to find a number of us.
However Danny (aka AppleTree) and his supporters have, for months, hinted at law suits aimed at various posters. This is a "shot across the bow" of those posters to "cease and desist." The threat is that if we do not, we will find ourselves at the wrong end of a law suit.
The law suit need not have any merit whatsoever. However, it costs money to defend oneself against various frivolous charges and motions -- as Joy and Pickle are experiencing.
This is the classic way by which the rich and powerful regularly abuse the (relatively) poor and powerless.
I find it interesting that the subpoena is to be served to BlueHost, who presumably have no real interest to oppose the subpoena. Are they afraid that if they served the owner of the domain name or the web site, they might run into some opposition.
However, we can let BlueHost know that if they do not oppose a subpoena served for frivolous reasons, we will let the hosting community know about this. In my next post, I will post relevant contact information.
Sounds like a great idea. Hope all contact Blue Host. I will as soon as your information is posted
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So, any of you going to oppose the subpoena in the courts? Going to try to get in on the deposition?
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Aaww - poor J.R.!!! Don't feel left out!! I'll share my spot with you!! Like I've said before, I have lots to say!! I can't wait to get to court!! I think I offered to go right after Fran!!
Hey, I want to get on that list! If I say "Danny Sheldon is a JERK" would they sue me too? FWIW His former wife....is, IMO a sweet Christian lady.... she should be happy to have gotten rid of such a JERK!
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Excellent, Inga! I'll looking forward to the contact info you post. I'm not a techie, but it would sure seem that complying with a seemingly frivolous request might not be good for business... :dunno:
BTW...I don't have many phishes in my pond either, but the few I have are piranhas...
Bonnie, I don't believe that DS & 3ABN are trying to get information from us. If they did, they know where to find a number of us.
However Danny (aka AppleTree) and his supporters have, for months, hinted at law suits aimed at various posters. This is a "shot across the bow" of those posters to "cease and desist." The threat is that if we do not, we will find ourselves at the wrong end of a law suit.
The law suit need not have any merit whatsoever. However, it costs money to defend oneself against various frivolous charges and motions -- as Joy and Pickle are experiencing.
This is the classic way by which the rich and powerful regularly abuse the (relatively) poor and powerless.
I find it interesting that the subpoena is to be served to BlueHost, who presumably have no real interest to oppose the subpoena. Are they afraid that if they served the owner of the domain name or the web site, they might run into some opposition.
However, we can let BlueHost know that if they do not oppose a subpoena served for frivolous reasons, we will let the hosting community know about this. In my next post, I will post relevant contact information.
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I am taking measures to be in on the fun. I have had my first talk with one of the lawyers involved, and we have an appointment to continue. Keep it in your prayers.
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So, any of you going to oppose the subpoena in the courts? Going to try to get in on the deposition.
Well, it seems to me that, for starters, it is up to BlueHost to protect their customers. And if they don't, those of us whose privacy is violated should let the internet community know.
Here's the main BlueHost web site: http://www.bluehost.com/
Just call the "Question" number on the main page. You have a "question" regarding whether BlueHost values its customers enough to protect their privacy. Everyone on this board should call them and voice concerns over privacy, because if some of us are at risk, all of us are at risk. (The phone number actually goes to "Sales Support." If they get enough such calls, *somebody* will hear about it.)
Here's their forum: http://www.bluehostforum.com/
You have to register to post. Either post to a privacy concerns topic already there (started by me), or start your own topic. Ask if BlueHost stands up for forum users' right to privacy.
And you might suggest that other communities such as
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/ (See http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=4904608&highlight=bluehost#post4904608) will probably be interested to see whether or not BlueHost will challenge the subpoena to see whether the lawyer issuing the subpoena has valid reasons for requesting the information.
And then, of course, there are many other web hosting fora. WebHostingTalk is one of the more popular ones.
Another site for evaluating BlueHost is at http://hostjury.com/reviews/Bluehost We will know what to post there after we find out whether BlueHost does anything to protect our privacy. They're actually big enough to afford it better than you or I.
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I am taking measures to be in on the fun. I have had my first talk with one of the lawyers involved, and we have an appointment to continue. Keep it in your prayers.
What do you mean by "one of the lawyers involved"?
The subpoena was signed by one lawyer -- Hayes.
And, by the way, folks, why not post all the contact information for the lawyers involved? Those of us who have flat-rate long-distance plans can afford to call them regularly -- or at least as often as time permits. ;D
Sure wish our youngest son were still a teenager at home. He used to love talking calls from telemarketers ... "Let me answer it, Mom!!" He was great at stringing them along before they caught on (poor telemarketers!). I think he would have enjoyed calling the lawyers too. His voice was deep enough not to give away his age. ;D
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I am taking measures to be in on the fun. I have had my first talk with one of the lawyers involved, and we have an appointment to continue. Keep it in your prayers.
What do you mean by "one of the lawyers involved"?
The subpoena was signed by one lawyer -- Hayes.
And, by the way, folks, why not post all the contact information for the lawyers involved? Those of us who have flat-rate long-distance plans can afford to call them regularly -- or at least as often as time permits. ;D
Sure wish our youngest son were still a teenager at home. He used to love talking calls from telemarketers ... "Let me answer it, Mom!!" He was great at stringing them along before they caught on (poor telemarketers!). I think he would have enjoyed calling the lawyers too. His voice was deep enough not to give away his age. ;D
Is there a reference number to this subpoena? Even tho I am on the list which is crazy enough, I haven't a clue why except for one post referenced.
Nothing like a legal threat and you are not sure what illegality you have committed ???
To crazy.
Would like all information needed before I call,
Thanks
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So, any of you going to oppose the subpoena in the courts? Going to try to get in on the deposition.
Well, it seems to me that, for starters, it is up to BlueHost to protect their customers. And if they don't, those of us whose privacy is violated should let the internet community know.
Here's the main BlueHost web site: http://www.bluehost.com/
Just call the "Question" number on the main page. You have a "question" regarding whether BlueHost values its customers enough to protect their privacy. Everyone on this board should call them and voice concerns over privacy, because if some of us are at risk, all of us are at risk. (The phone number actually goes to "Sales Support." If they get enough such calls, *somebody* will hear about it.)
Here's their forum: http://www.bluehostforum.com/
You have to register to post. Either post to a privacy concerns topic already there (started by me), or start your own topic. Ask if BlueHost stands up for forum users' right to privacy.
And you might suggest that other communities such as
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/ (See http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=4904608&highlight=bluehost#post4904608) will probably be interested to see whether or not BlueHost will challenge the subpoena to see whether the lawyer issuing the subpoena has valid reasons for requesting the information.
And then, of course, there are many other web hosting fora. WebHostingTalk is one of the more popular ones.
Another site for evaluating BlueHost is at http://hostjury.com/reviews/Bluehost We will know what to post there after we find out whether BlueHost does anything to protect our privacy. They're actually big enough to afford it better than you or I.
Excellent Inga!
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Here is the actual subpoena in pdf format as previously provided by Observer over at BSDA and made available to you here by me.
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I have wondered why my name had not been brought up until now! I am sure 3ABN knows who and where I am. If that is what they are looking for, it will not provide anything new.
I really need to start posting. If they are coming after me, I should make it worth their trouble by detailing those financial documents that are so damaging.
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Now folks, be careful. BlueHost has great service and great tech support.
And read this: http://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=279 (http://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=279)
So compliment them profusely as well as express your concerns.
By the way, I read somewhere that a subpoena signed by an attorney may not necessarily be a court order in at least some jurisdictions when it comes to letting an accountant off of accountant-client privilege, or something like that. Maybe what I read dealt with a tax preparer-client privilege.
At any rate, is this subpoena considered a court order in Utah or in US District Court? I don't know.
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I have wondered why my name had not been brought up until now! I am sure 3ABN knows who and where I am. If that is what they are looking for, it will not provide anything new.
I really need to start posting. If they are coming after me, I should make it worth their trouble by detailing those financial documents that are so damaging.
Fran, I LOVE your posts - always! So, get to it girl! ;D
Maybe they think you are really Linda!? :ROFL:
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I really need to start posting. If they are coming after me, I should make it worth their trouble by detailing those financial documents that are so damaging.
Yes, Fran, you can probably re-post the material you posted on BlackSDA.It's buried there, and it will get more exposure here. So it will make your efforts count for more.
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Sheesh, this dear boy is in my back yard. Maybe should invite him for lunch someday.
If the following is what has them all shook up and warrants my name on a subpoena,could make one wonder if the cestapo has landed :ROFL:
Crazy,crazy, crazy. Would love to see this explained on 3ABN
bonnie
Full Member
Offline
Posts: 45
Re: What's Happening With the Lawsuit?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2008, 01:17:30 PM » Quote
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It is surprising how many would let this go. I am sure those involved are not finding it an easy road. At times it is easy to feel if most don't care,"Why should I"
Just smoothing this over and pretending great changes are taking place with new parties involved really isn't taking care of it.
Unless all those willingly involved in this mess are removed, the change is cosmetic only
Bonnie
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Yes, please, please, please Fran!!
BTW, the individual I just spoke with at BlueHost suggested emailing their legal department at:
abuse@bluehost.com
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Now folks, be careful. BlueHost has great service and great tech support.
And read this: http://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=279 (http://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=279)
So compliment them profusely as well as express your concerns.
I don't know about complimenting them "profusely." ;) That's hardly my style.
However, we can express appreciation for the service that seems to have been reliable. We can also express appreciation for the stand they took in the document above. Then we can express the confident hope that they will do their utmost to protect our privacy and not comply with a frivolous subpoena without protest.
If they require a court injunction to release information, that would be a lot safer for us.
I haven't posted at the BlueHost forum yet because the BlackSDA forum seems to be down, and Gregory posted some helpful legal terminology in his post there.
[Modified] If the abuse email address goes to their legal department, that would be another good option.
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Now folks, be careful. BlueHost has great service and great tech support.
And read this: http://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=279 (http://helpdesk.bluehost.com/kb/index.php?x=&mod_id=2&id=279)
So compliment them profusely as well as express your concerns.
I don't know about complimenting them "profusely." ;) That's hardly my style.
However, we can express appreciation for the service that seems to have been reliable. We can also express appreciation for the stand they took in the document above. Then we can express the confident hope that they will do their utmost to protect our privacy and not comply with a frivolous subpoena without protest.
If they require a court injunction to release information, that would be a lot safer for us.
I haven't posted at the BlueHost forum yet because the BlackSDA forum seems to be down, and Gregory posted some helpful legal terminology in his post there.
BlackSDA seems to be fine now (for me anyway).
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What do your pastors think about 3ABN and Danny Shelton trying to find out about your identities? How about your conference presidents? Your elders? Your fellow members? Jim Gilley?
I think it would be interesting for you folks to post whatever survey results you come up with.
Praise God we live in a free country.
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Does anybody know a way to contact Jim Gilley directly (as opposed to a generic 3ABN line)?
If so, please post it here.
Thanks.
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I'll let someone else try to find that and post it.
Another thought: What about calling up your conference religious liberty department and telling them you appreciate their hard work and you love supporting religious liberty and ... you have this little problem. Can they help?
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If the following is true from another topic here....
not be sued for libel ...but I seem to recall hearing (or reading??) somewhere (maybe BSDA?) that Stan Jensen was already cooperating with the lawsuit and had turned over his Club Adventist access logs to DS/3ABN attorneys. IF that is true.....wouldn't that explain why he says "we are not going to be [served]?"
I would hope at the least that Daryl would confirm for posters here that he has in fact willingly turned over private information to 3ABN. It is not meant as a critisim if he does, it could be very costly to fight. However I think members do deserve to know that it doesn't take much for their personal information to be demanded and possibly legally received.
Mine has always been out there for the taking, and if in fact Stan has already furnished the info, nothing of mine will read any differently. There are others that may not feel as I do and really deserve to know if this is what is taking place.
How much information against those that have agitated the powers that be on other forums been willingly and easily passed to those that may ask, or is it just DS that deserves to be handed this info.
If you look at the posts by childoftheking,myself and a couple of others and realize how easily that prompts putting those names on a subpoena list, I feel for others.
You all may want to consider what forums you post at and how secure your information really is, if you are not among the elite and favored of any forum
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You all may want to consider what forums you post at and how secure your information really is, if you are not among the elite and favored of any forum
In this case it has nothing to do with being "the elite and favored" of a forum. The subpoena is addressed to the hosting company -- perhaps because they know that whoever owns this forum is likely to fight a subpoena.
However, for those who need to keep their identity hidden, it is important not to put it in emails or in PM's on the forum. Material in emails can be recovered from hard drive, and PM's are likely to be in the forum back-up, even if they are deleted. Whenever possible, a direct phone call is much safer for transmitting sensitive information.
In this case I'm most concerned for Sister. Of those on the list, she has the most to lose. And it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of us were on the list merely for "filler." After all, what can Danny possibly do to us/get from us. The only thing he could do would be to harass us for pure spite. Of course that may not be beyond him. :dunno:
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You all may want to consider what forums you post at and how secure your information really is, if you are not among the elite and favored of any forum
In this case it has nothing to do with being "the elite and favored" of a forum. The subpoena is addressed to the hosting company -- perhaps because they know that whoever owns this forum is likely to fight a subpoena.
However, for those who need to keep their identity hidden, it is important not to put it in emails or in PM's on the forum. Material in emails can be recovered from hard drive, and PM's are likely to be in the forum back-up, even if they are deleted. Whenever possible, a direct phone call is much safer for transmitting sensitive information.
In this case I'm most concerned for Sister. Of those on the list, she has the most to lose. And it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of us were on the list merely for "filler." After all, what can Danny possibly do to us/get from us. The only thing he could do would be to harass us for pure spite. Of course that may not be beyond him. :dunno:
I was in no way referring to "favored" on this forum as to their information.
If it is true that another forum has already voluntarily released information on any of it's members, who and when.
Did they do so for only a select few?? Did they notify those select few of their actions?
AND, I repeat, it was not meant as a critisim of advent talk or daryl. Legal fights can be a costly business. But I do think if those decisions are made the members, or at least those involved need to be notified.
You are right, I do think they are fishing.
But along with the good advice you provided, I have learned over the past 6 years to keep a printed copy of everything that I am involved with.
Lot easier than having to pay to retrieve information on what I may have said, and just as importantly what others have said.
I also print off a response as I see it as many times the responses are changed to reflect a subtle but important difference in content.
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I would hope at the least that Daryl would confirm for posters here that he has in fact willingly turned over private information to 3ABN.
Nothing to confirm as nothing has been requested of me and nothing has been turned over by me.
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I didn't believe that you had at this point turned over anything.
From the sounds of this, they bypassed you and did not request or demand from you personally.
If the information has already been turned over by other forums without a forum being served by a subpoena, that is a little different.
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Hey, I want to get on that list! If I say "Danny Sheldon is a JERK" would they sue me too?
Well, JR, if you want to get on Danny's 'hit list,' I suggest you back up what you said with some evidence. ;) He does not appreciate that -- as demonstrated by his suing Gailon and Bob. It need not be hidden evidence. Public evidence will do -- even arguments that demonstrate the flaws in 3ABN/Danny rhetoric. Some of your other posts have shown that you're no slacker at coming up with details. ;)
FWIW His former wife....is, IMO a sweet Christian lady.... she should be happy to have gotten rid of such a JERK!
Most of us probably agree with you. She was most likely so absorbed in what she/they were doing that she didn't notice the red flags before it was too late.
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Interesting, Inga. Call him names like what JR just did, and he might let you off. But produce documents and alleged victims and alleged witnesses, and you are in big trouble.
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Fran, have you considered sending your financial findings to Senator Grassley's office?
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Already did.
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Good for you, Fran!! Maybe we should all contact him! Here's the info:
http://grassley.senate.gov/public/
Sen. Chuck Grassley
135 Hart Senate Bldg.
Washington, DC
20510-1501
202.224.3744
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You all may want to consider what forums you post at and how secure your information really is, if you are not among the elite and favored of any forum
In this case it has nothing to do with being "the elite and favored" of a forum. The subpoena is addressed to the hosting company -- perhaps because they know that whoever owns this forum is likely to fight a subpoena.
However, for those who need to keep their identity hidden, it is important not to put it in emails or in PM's on the forum. Material in emails can be recovered from hard drive, and PM's are likely to be in the forum back-up, even if they are deleted. Whenever possible, a direct phone call is much safer for transmitting sensitive information.
In this case I'm most concerned for Sister. Of those on the list, she has the most to lose. And it wouldn't surprise me if the rest of us were on the list merely for "filler." After all, what can Danny possibly do to us/get from us. The only thing he could do would be to harass us for pure spite. Of course that may not be beyond him. :dunno:
Inga, thank you for your concern... When I read the list for the Subpoena I came to the same conclusion: although names other than my own were listed, some of them have posted little or nothing of consequent regarding Danny Shelton and others have openly posted under their own names. It appears that I have joined Joy and Pickle and together we, including the others who may still be sought, have become the image of Moby Dick to Danny's Captain Ahab. In time it will become evident to everyone that the lawsuit Danny has initiated is akin to Captain Ahad's relentless persuit of a perceived adversary: the goal is not the persuit of justice, but to exact revenge.
The other day I spoke with a dear friend that had recently seen Danny, this was what that individual said regarding their encounter:
"Danny seemed so small and broken. I wondered how I could have ever been afraid of that little man, he is little more than skin and bones. It was actually rather sad in a way. He is not the Danny I knew. Just a broken, vindictive little man, nothing more. Not the frightening, powerful, life changing creature that he once was. I am actually embarrassed that he intimidated and scared me like he did, and that he was able to affect me so powerfully, when he is such a pathetic little thing. It is almost sad to see someone like him be the little nothing that he is now. The great oz! But now his day is over, and he is seen for who he is... "
Behold the once mighty OZ, see him for what he has become...
Sister
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If the following is true from another topic here....
not be sued for libel ...but I seem to recall hearing (or reading??) somewhere (maybe BSDA?) that Stan Jensen was already cooperating with the lawsuit and had turned over his Club Adventist access logs to DS/3ABN attorneys. IF that is true.....wouldn't that explain why he says "we are not going to be [served]?"
I would hope at the least that Daryl would confirm for posters here that he has in fact willingly turned over private information to 3ABN. It is not meant as a critisim if he does, it could be very costly to fight. However I think members do deserve to know that it doesn't take much for their personal information to be demanded and possibly legally received.
Mine has always been out there for the taking, and if in fact Stan has already furnished the info, nothing of mine will read any differently. There are others that may not feel as I do and really deserve to know if this is what is taking place.
How much information against those that have agitated the powers that be on other forums been willingly and easily passed to those that may ask, or is it just DS that deserves to be handed this info.
If you look at the posts by childoftheking,myself and a couple of others and realize how easily that prompts putting those names on a subpoena list, I feel for others.
You all may want to consider what forums you post at and how secure your information really is, if you are not among the elite and favored of any forum
Be patient. Rule 45 allows them to do a third party subpoena. Remember that Blue Host has rented the space and the renter has rented the domains. If Blue Host breaches your confidentiality and then 3ABN uses that information, you are a class and you will have breach of confidentiality, violations of first amendment rights and you have have an excellent abuse of process claim, et al. Most of anything they can do is fairly limited and can be dealt with as a class action for injunctive relief at the right moment. Remember, that a cease and desist letter is enough to form a foundation for a class action for injunctive relief. And a Foundation will support your efforts against these corporate bullies. You must hold the line against these tyrants of infamy!!!
There are a host of non-profits that will defend your first amendment rights and invoke a class for injunctive rlief. You can decide if you want to pursue a class for damages as well or pursue individual claims. There is no question you have a federal jurisdiction and federal claims. So, let them abuse the process, and then strike when you have a real issue that can inflict serious and long term damage that they will remember for a couple of decades.
Let them go to their graves remembering what it cost these corporate tyrants to defend Danny Lee Shelton and Tommy Ray Shelton!!! against the wicked allegations against them. What it cost to defend open sin in the camp of modern israel. And what it cost the "work of the annointed one", the work of The King to defend unrighteous behavior. Make certain it can be said that never have so few, chased so many, so far, for nothing!!!.
Then, there is the political fall-out church-wide, if they are so foolish as to push the issue. And remember, for every dime you spend, it will likely cost them ten dollars. With the help of a non-profit or two, you can expand that ratio to 10,000 to 1 very easilly. And I would propose that the foundation will easilly raise the money to defend your First Amendment rights, much of it right out of the very same pews 3ABN depends upon!!!
There would most likely be other claims that you could pursue as well. That would depend upon the strategic purpose of the class action and just how far you wish to push. For some, an injunction would be enough, for others, they just may have donations and costs to recover. The question is, just how far will these tyrants of due process go to try and crush your first amendment rights?
As far as you let them!!! Just like Nazi Germany, it will end when the allies stand, fight and push to regain the loses!!!
At some point, you must draw a line in the sand, and if they cross it, bite like a western diamond-back!!!
YOU MUST NEVER VOID OR ALLOW THEM TO TROD ON YOUR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. IT WILL EMBOLDEN THEM and the terrorism will spread. STAND AND FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHTS!!! Push them back into Thompsonville and allow them to wither away there into virtual irrelevance. Any Board, or its delegated authority, that will not take "time" to meet the complainants and listen to the issues, view the evidence and respond to them, honestly, fairly, openly and transparently, has no good reason to exist within the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. A lack of openness and transparency is a contradiction of Christian Leadership and should be swept aside.
So, show your back-bone, now!!!; Stand your ground FOR THE KING and prepare to "fire when you see the whites of their eyes!!!". And make every ounce of effort really count!!
You will look back with satisfaction and a real sense of acheivement in the Glory of the Lord.
If litigation is what they live by, then let them die by it!!!
And remember, be certain that the Lord is with YOU and the cause is righteousness...
and His righteousness will prevail!!!
But, YOU MUST NEVER SURRENDER!!!! Rather, march to victory, shoulder to shoulder as Gideons against an unrighteous foe!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Defendant, Pro Se
And thankful to bear the privilege!!!
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Artiste is back!!!
WOOHOO!!
I've been missin you!!
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It seems that what has happened here has prompted a topic over at Club Adventist:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/161050#Post161050
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Interesting take on what is appropriate and what is not over at Club Adventist.
Not sure I agree with them...
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Artiste is back!!!
WOOHOO!!
I've been missin you!!
Been missing y'all too!
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Posted on BlackSDA today by Appletree:
"Everyone at AT is hashing and rehashing the subpeona and what it means and how it affects them.....if those same people would quit spreading rumors and heresay on the net, there wouldn't be anything to discuss. Who knows? If they are willing to make retractions and admit that they have no first hand knowledge or proof of any of their accusations against Danny and 3ABN, maybe, 3abn would be willing to acknowledge those statements by not pursuing the charges."
How about it?
How many are willing to make retractions?
(Three guesses as to my response--first two don't count.)
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Posted on BlackSDA today by Appletree:
"Everyone at AT is hashing and rehashing the subpeona and what it means and how it affects them.....if those same people would quit spreading rumors and heresay on the net, there wouldn't be anything to discuss. Who knows? If they are willing to make retractions and admit that they have no first hand knowledge or proof of any of their accusations against Danny and 3ABN, maybe, 3abn would be willing to acknowledge those statements by not pursuing the charges."
How about it?
How many are willing to make retractions?
(Three guesses as to my response--first two don't count.)
Pursuing what charges? For myself, all I know is that DS would like my ip address and other info. Still haven't quite figured out why. I think for myself it would be interesting to see if possible a subpoena to find out the identity of appletree and why he is allowed to make unproven accusations against others. From this statement those mentioned in the subpoena are being accused of making unfounded accusations against DS. I would like to see proof of my unfounded false statements against DS, then I would like to see this godly man approach me on my false statement and follow Matt 18 prior to thinking to use legal force.
3abn would be willing to acknowledge those statements by not pursuing the charges." [/i] [/b]
Maybe it is just me, but isn't this backward from a christian leader. First approach each of us for what they consider unfounded and false, ask us to retract and then if all else fails proceed against those that have lied. Of course with that, understanding that there are those that should be allowed to proceed against DS for implying or stating those he named have not been honest.
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It seems that what has happened here has prompted a topic over at Club Adventist:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/161050#Post161050
For the record (because I don't know whether my post will stay there), this is what I just posted at ClubAdventist in the thread Daryl referenced:
Darlene had posted this: The key is to always only say things that Jesus would say.
Yes, Darlene, thank you for that suggestion.
We should not call obvious hypocrites (those who preach one thing on worldwide television and practice quite another thing) anything worse than "vipers" or "white-washed sepulchers." (At the moment I can't actually think of anything worse.)
But I doubt that would prevent anyone from being sued for "slander" of someone found what was said to be somewhat uncomfortable.
Too often we forget that Jesus is not just about warm fuzzies, but He stands for genuine love -- the kind of love that stands up for the oppressed, for instance. He said that it would be better for one that hurts "one of these little ones" if a millstone were hung about his neck so that he would drown in the lake. I don't recall anyone suggesting anything quite as drastic on a certain Adventist forum in reference to someone whom a number of formerly "little ones" have accused of hurtful behavior against them.
Jesus had stern things to say about those in positions of authority who abused their power and authority. It is not using Scripture wisely to use it to excuse abusers of power and authority today.
By definition, slander consists of untrue accusations. Today, a suit of slander has become an intimidation technique used by the rich on those of little means when evidence of wrong-doing has been presented. A law suit makes people think that the objects of the suit have said slanderous things. But this is not necessarily so. Even when no slander has been committed, it is possible to use expensive lawyers to bring the victims to bankruptcy before such a case ever gets to court where the charge can be proven false. That's why it is used as a tool of intimidation by the unscrupulous.
It's risky to come to the aid of modern wounded Samaritans. It puts one at risk for getting sued for slander.
If Jesus walked this earth today, I wonder what He would say about those who choose to look the other way when abuses occur because they'd rather not get involved or because the person is powerful and popular or a friend. Would He not put them into a story, along with the priest and the Levite who "walked by on the other side."
Jesus said, "Come unto me" to everyone-- even the hypocritical Pharisees. And on the forum that has aroused someone's ire, that someone has been called to "come to Jesus" to have Him take care of the sin problem, instead of covering it up.
I am one of the 14 named in that subpoena, and the post that was specifically referenced as an example of my posting was the following (identifying information removed):
The discussion centered about why people lie, and Abraham had been referenced.
I replied:
"It was clearly lack of faith for Abraham. He trusted his own ability to take care of himself more than he trusted God.
"The same would be true for X. He trusted/trusts his own ability to take care of himself (with the help of deep-pocketed friends) more than he trusted/trusts God. In the case of x [publicly documented behavior] and using lies to justify it, the answer is still the same. He trusted his own ability to provide for his happiness more than he trusted/trusts God.
"God forgives sin, which always ultimately originates with a lack of faith. However, continuing in a path of sin eventually silences the voice of the Holy Spirit so that right seems wrong and wrong seems right. Jesus indicated that this sin (the sin against the Holy Spirit that results in attributing to Satan the work of the Spirit & vice versa) is the one sin that God cannot forgive.
"X needs our prayers, as do those who support him when they know he is wrong."
~~~~~~~~~
I suppose I should thank whichever member of that board fed the attorneys the information and gave this post as an example of my posting.
I stand by it, because it is the truth. I pray that you and I may take this truth into our hearts, so we may realize the importance of responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and being transparent in all our dealings.
_________________________
"Worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of water." Rev. 14:7
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Quote, Inga:
"Jesus had stern things to say about those in positions of authority who abused their power and authority. It is not using Scripture wisely to use it to excuse abusers of power and authority today."
Very important point, Inga!
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The address of the lawyer and law firm is in the PDF file, but I thought it might be good to have it for reference on this forum:
Jerrie M. Hayes, Esq.
Siegle, Brill, Greupner, Duffy & Foster, P.A.
100 Washington Ave. So. Ste. 1300
Minneapolis, MN 55401
Phone: (612) 337-6142
Since the subpoena and the lawsuit should be of interest to anyone who is concerned about preserving freedom of speech in the democracies of the world, it should be of interest to all members of this forum, and most of those who surf through.
So if you're at all interested in privacy and/or freedom of speech, I would encourage you to contact the law firm to let them know exactly what you think of this move to ask a hosting company to release private information about those who use its services. And while you're at it, tell them what you think about the defamation suit against Gailon Joy and Bob Pickle for their whistle-blowing efforts in recording the evidence at www.save-3abn.com.
If you don't get it all said the first time, it wouldn't hurt to call again. And maybe again ... Those who are not named in the subpoena have absolutely nothing to lose. And it seems that most who are named have nothing to lose either. (At least that's my opinion.)
I wonder whether the time required to answer these phone calls would be billable hours to Danny Shelton et al?
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Anytime taking up with my sons case were billable hours. Information that was provided and had to be confirmed/checked out/dealt with was billed to my son
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Is there any reason why all conferences can't be notified of the actions of 3ABN, with full detail of this subpoena?? Tehy all have websites and provide e-maill addresses. How about the various chruches that have websites with e-mail listed. Any reason not to
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Posted on BlackSDA today by Appletree:
"Everyone at AT is hashing and rehashing the subpeona and what it means and how it affects them.....if those same people would quit spreading rumors and heresay on the net, there wouldn't be anything to discuss. Who knows? If they are willing to make retractions and admit that they have no first hand knowledge or proof of any of their accusations against Danny and 3ABN, maybe, 3abn would be willing to acknowledge those statements by not pursuing the charges."
How about it?
How many are willing to make retractions?
(Three guesses as to my response--first two don't count.)
Yes, Appletree, it is all about brute intimidation and tyrannical misuse of process.
WE ARE NOT AFRAID and will now stand shoulder to shoulder to defend the rights of victims and to oppose every open and obvious sin.
Why don't you just roll out that evidence you claim to have for nearly four years and lets see if we have anything to retract!!! It is most likely we will have much more to CROW ABOUT!!! And I cannot wait to cross examine your pathetic statements on the stand in front of fourteen jurors!!! Will you accept a trial Subpoena and take your opportunity to testify and defend tyrrany???
Looking for an answer, APPLETREE!!! Put your money where your mouth is and take a courageous stand for your version of the truth!!! I am waiting for you to take a real stand and be open and transparent...and we'll just see what your conference president has to say!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Some interesting information has been posted on C/A by Bruce Nelson(cyberguy) that may be of use to some
Bruce nelson said......I noticed that Many people are rushing to put in Hotmail Email accounts who are on the list. This will do no good. The forum registers the Email you registered with as well as the Email you are using. Plus the IPs you use. People should have registered with a hotmail.com Email to begin with and used a handle and then used some service that hides their IP address like Torpark.com which uses a modified Firefox to link through servers thoughout the world to hide ones ID. This will make it almost impossible to trace.
Interesting that the word Many is captilized. I, for one could not tell you who, besides myself have changed to a hotmail account. I changed mine because of the nutcases that can crawl out of the wood work and have the ability to hide their identity to contact with less than desirable e-mails. Has happened to many times in the past and have little patience any longer trying to deal with that.
In anticipation of such conduct again I changed mine. Not because of DS or 3ABN. They already had mine I am sure, and as have said nothing to indicate I am in possession of secrets or know of any alleged wrong doing, I really don't care. It is those holding the coats and circling the wagons I wish to avoid.
Why would anyone take the time to keep track as to what many have listed for e-mail contact and then to know Many have changed their contact info.
Those that are so incensed over what they consider gossip seem to be keeping very close tabs on the gossip they pretend to abhore. "Oh, Thank You God I am not like they are" comes to mind.
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Can someone explain please. If you declare something gossip and slander,feel what is being said is morally/legally wrong?? why would you get your own hands dirty by obtaining as much information as you can.
If any topic is wrong here, what are you doing here keeping such close tabs?? Why pontificate all over the place about those terrible gossips. Why participate in the shadows of something you believe to be wrong. That is what is being done by all those afraid to register and voice their disapproval, but know exactly who may or may not have changed to hotmail account.
If such close tabs are kept on your previous e-mail accounts, perhaps they have also been copied for future use. Maybe you may want to follow advice for future given by those that know how to hide their e-mail identity.
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It seems that Stan has moved his discussion about us and BSDA behind closed doors, which I can't access. Can anybody else here access it there?
It seems that what has happened here has prompted a topic over at Club Adventist:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/161050#Post161050
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I can. You can also for signing up and I think the first month is a 1.00
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It may be that having acess to that forum prohibits you from releasing any information from there. The intent is to hide the conversation from those not having acess.
The more that gets said the more convoluted this gets. Why would those that so strongly condemn anyone that has an interest and concern regarding an org that represents the SDA denomination take part, make possible, go from forum to forum making sure to catch the latest. Seems several are doing this. Remarks concerning a anonymous poster that shows more tha a passing knowledge of the name used. Those that are so appalled that anyone would discuss know more about what a certain poster has said than I do. Prior to this I have been to blacksda maybe three times. Not so for those that abhore gossip.
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Well, I am not about to pay any $$$ to them to find out what they are saying about us there.
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I abhor what the 3ABN lawyers are doing but I have a question for Daryl
Our own rule says
14 - The owners of this forum also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or any other related information collected on this service) in the event of a formal complaint or legal action arising from any situation caused by your use of this forum.
Seems to me that our private info is not safe here if adventtalk was served asking for the private info of people here either.
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The thread has been moved to "Natter Matters," which may not be accessible to casual surfers:
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/161050/fpart/2
No posts have been removed. Stan even suggested that folks contribute to Calvin's PayPal account, even while he said he did not necessarily approve of what the posters wrote.
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Some interesting information has been posted on C/A by Bruce Nelson(cyberguy) that may be of use to some
Bruce nelson said......I noticed that Many people are rushing to put in Hotmail Email accounts who are on the list. This will do no good. The forum registers the Email you registered with as well as the Email you are using. Plus the IPs you use. People should have registered with a hotmail.com Email to begin with and used a handle and then used some service that hides their IP address like Torpark.com which uses a modified Firefox to link through servers thoughout the world to hide ones ID. This will make it almost impossible to trace.
Interesting that the word Many is captilized. I, for one could not tell you who, besides myself have changed to a hotmail account. I changed mine because of the nutcases that can crawl out of the wood work and have the ability to hide their identity to contact with less than desirable e-mails. Has happened to many times in the past and have little patience any longer trying to deal with that.
In anticipation of such conduct again I changed mine. Not because of DS or 3ABN. They already had mine I am sure, and as have said nothing to indicate I am in possession of secrets or know of any alleged wrong doing, I really don't care. It is those holding the coats and circling the wagons I wish to avoid.
Why would anyone take the time to keep track as to what many have listed for e-mail contact and then to know Many have changed their contact info.
Those that are so incensed over what they consider gossip seem to be keeping very close tabs on the gossip they pretend to abhore. "Oh, Thank You God I am not like they are" comes to mind.
Interesting to see the name of such a supposedly knowledgable person (regarding email addies of AT members), crop up. Haven't heard of him for some time, but the name sure brings back some very unpleasant memories. Know all. Know nothing? :scratch:
Yes. Quite an apt quote regarding "Oh, Thank You God I am not like they are".
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:welcome: to Advent Talk.
I must say that I find this to be an interesting first post.
The key words here are ".....reserve the right....."
It is simply a protection to the owner/s of this forum in the event that all avenues have been exhausted to withhold this type of information.
I abhor what the 3ABN lawyers are doing but I have a question for Daryl
Our own rule says
14 - The owners of this forum also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or any other related information collected on this service) in the event of a formal complaint or legal action arising from any situation caused by your use of this forum.
Seems to me that our private info is not safe here if adventtalk was served asking for the private info of people here either.
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Interesting to see the name of such a supposedly knowledgable person (regarding email addies of AT members), crop up. Haven't heard of him for some time, but the name sure brings back some very unpleasant memories. Know all. Know nothing? :scratch:
Yes. Quite an apt quote regarding "Oh, Thank You God I am not like they are". [/b]
Amazing. I bet most of us here on AT couldn't tell you "Many". I have no idea what e-mail addies anyone had posted prior to this and changed. Seems some very close tabs are kept by some that have no interest.
Wonder what would happen if all these people had an interest in what they abhore and beat their chest over.
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Daryl
Why don't you move advent talk to a canadian server rather than a server in the USA. At least then 3ABN will have to deal with Canidian law.
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That may have been a good idea, however, it's probably too late to bother even thinking about doing that now.
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Daryl
I know that is true for the past but I am thinking of the future. It is obvious we cannot talk about 3ABN while within the jurisdiction of the USA which has oppressive libel laws and large punitive damages laws. Many will not discuss this at all if they fear possible retaliation from 3ABN. Maybe by moving we can at least carry on the discussion beyond their reach. Or at least make it more difficult for them in the future.
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Daryl
I know that is true for the past but I am thinking of the future. It is obvious we cannot talk about 3ABN while within the jurisdiction of the USA which has oppressive libel laws and large punitive damages laws. Many will not discuss this at all if they fear possible retaliation from 3ABN. Maybe by moving we can at least carry on the discussion beyond their reach. Or at least make it more difficult for them in the future.
Knight, :welcome: to AdventTalk!
Regarding the emphasized portion above, perhaps it would be well for you to speak only for yourself since a number of us here at AdventTalk have been discussing 3ABN and continue to do so in the face of the "oppressive libel laws".
Perhaps it is only that you don't understand the ramifications of what you are asking Daryl to do.
I agree with Daryl that your first post here on this forum, and also your second and third ones are rather interesting.
Anyway, continue on, and it is nice to have you here.
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Daryl
I know that is true for the past but I am thinking of the future. It is obvious we cannot talk about 3ABN while within the jurisdiction of the USA which has oppressive libel laws and large punitive damages laws. Many will not discuss this at all if they fear possible retaliation from 3ABN. Maybe by moving we can at least carry on the discussion beyond their reach. Or at least make it more difficult for them in the future.
And just what "oppressive libel laws" do you refer to? Have you forgotten about the First Amendment? Can you find a comparable statute or article within either the Federal or Provincial "laws"?
One is far safer in the United States of America and it would be far easier to defend and to counterattack against such frivolous suites within the Federal System. Time and discovery is always on the side of the defenders. Gripe sites have specific protection under federal case law as well as statute.
You would be ill advised to give them venue in Canada.
The thing to do is to coalesce into a group or class and defend as well as offend when it is is appropriate.
Remember, THESE COLORS DO NOT RUN!!! And certainly not in the face of tyrants!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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You have some valid points Joy. Unfortunately in the USA those with the gold makes the rules. That has been proven painfully true over and over again. It would be great if you could get a rich patron on your side. Unfortunately I am not one of those. You mentioned first amendment rights. Unfortunately those with the most gold can just outlast those with less money. By delaying and delaying and appeals after appeal until the poorer side just settles and runs out of money. I have seen this happen way to often.
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I will be cheering you all on in any case. I hope you guys beats 3ABN.
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Perhaps it will be the US Government itself that settles this in the end in the form of the IRS.
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I will be cheering you all on in any case. I hope you guys beats 3ABN.
Thanks for your support, Knight!
But be careful...you don't want to get on any subpoena lists!
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It seems that Stan has moved his discussion about us and BSDA behind closed doors, which I can't access. Can anybody else here access it there?
Well since you banned me for 14 days, (and deleted my message about "The Stan") for saying anything about "The Stan".....Daryl....I simply don't dare offer you a reply here :ROFL: FWIW, I have strong opinions about "Club Adventist" and "The Stan" but I don't dare voice them! HERE
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Perhaps it will be the US Government itself that settles this in the end in the form of the IRS.
The 3ABN supporters on BlackSDA feel quite sure that the IRS investigation is just a routine response to some reports from misguided people and will go nowhere.
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Based on the information Fran posted in the past........
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Based on the information Fran posted in the past........
Daryl, are you talking about documents or specific information she hasn't recently repeated?
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It seems I read in one of her posts somewhere that she has documented financial information of interest to the IRS that wouldn't go well for both Danny Shelton and 3ABN.
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I just received this email response from BlueHost:
Hello,
We will comply with any court order or subpoena legally requesting information from us.
BH/HM/FD Abuse Department
1215 N. Research Way
Suite Q-3500| Orem, UT 84097
V: (888) 401-HOST | F: 801-765-1992
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I just received this email response from BlueHost:
Hello,
We will comply with any court order or subpoena legally requesting information from us.
BH/HM/FD Abuse Department
1215 N. Research Way
Suite Q-3500| Orem, UT 84097
V: (888) 401-HOST | F: 801-765-1992
Well Snoopy, you must be among the favoured few as they didn't even bother to reply to me. :dunno:
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Artiste
If 3ABN goes fishing in my well they wil come up empty. But I would welcome it. They will spend more money doing so and get nothing.
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I guess this answers that question in that Bluehost will comply with the subpoena unless the subpoena is challenged by somebody else, assuming that can be done.
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You have some valid points Joy. Unfortunately in the USA those with the gold makes the rules. That has been proven painfully true over and over again. It would be great if you could get a rich patron on your side. Unfortunately I am not one of those. You mentioned first amendment rights. Unfortunately those with the most gold can just outlast those with less money. By delaying and delaying and appeals after appeal until the poorer side just settles and runs out of money. I have seen this happen way to often.
I can site example after example where the "victims" with sufficient time and patience can over-come. Unfortunately, the wider 3ABN expands their suite, the more in potential damages they face. There are more than a half dozen that have substantial claims that could cost literally millions to resolve. The longer they put off settlement of all those claims, the larger the potential sums, adjusted for inflation, will cost.
Having worked on many cases in the past, those that are willing to wait, will get their peice of the gold. The american justice system can be a great equalizer. In fact, it is great to know that the board has added to it's financial foundation. With so many new deep pockets added to the board, one must asume they will be able to divvy up!!! Patience and time, and negative community relations for 3ABN that entire time. A real challenge for even Elder Gilley. While he builds the business and puts a new face on 3ABN, certain elements of his board work overtime to undermine that affect. Frustrating for a man of such talent!
The real question here is, just how long will the new board underwrite hundreds of thousands in legal fees, particularly an expanded lawsuite, and still carry the millions in losses 3ABN incurs. 3ABN requires millions in donations every year and are hardly self-sufficent or "self supporting". They have, according to the Chairman, significant increases in operating expenses at a time they have decided to take on the very group of people that use to be supporters, rather than simply sit down and talk it through. A frustrating scenario for a new president trying to move ahead!!.
And to take steps to expand the breadth of the suite and increase the number of defendants, or to undertake an alternate suite that clearly is aimed at violating the rights of citizens and Seventh-day Adventist laymen, woud just add to the misery factor at a time when economic conditions are making donation dollars tougher to come by. An extremely frustrating scenario for a new president facing so many hurdles!!!
So, pardon me for being less than concerned, but we have the interior lines of defense and time and justice is most certainly on our side!!!!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Perhaps it will be the US Government itself that settles this in the end in the form of the IRS.
The 3ABN supporters on BlackSDA feel quite sure that the IRS investigation is just a routine response to some reports from misguided people and will go nowhere.
Well, let us pray they are correct. However, to move from review of complaints taken by field offices to authorization to do a field investigation and actually go out and take statements and then to walk off with several boxes of documentation would suggest they determined that where their was smoke they had fire.
Now, the real question is, what is the investigation target? Is it 3ABN, the corporation? Or is it the officers and directors and possibly Shelton family members that have been subject to many allegatiions of private inurement?
I have stated several times that the corporation may be able to simply negotiate a consent decree and a lofty fine for GAAP and other errors.
On the other hand, if the various allegations regarding private inurement from so many past employees is actually justified by tracking financial data, the perpatrators may not be so lucky and may have difficulty raising the dollars neccasary to even offer a deal. If they are the actual targets, they just may not fair so well and have to face the music.
Unfortunately, these perpetrators must sit and wait patiently for the investigative team to finish building the case. Be assured, this was not just an audit and anyone who is deluded to believe this does not understand the federal prosecution process. It can take months and years to move. When and if they move, they will normally have a pretty good case and intend to win. For the perpatrators, the bad news is that I am told this team has a 90% conviction rate. The good news is they do not always win.
The other bad news is that they share their information with state revenue departments and that could be yet another issue that must be addressed. The good news is the state revenue departments have traditionally worked very hard at collecting money and rarely prosecute. So, money makes em happy.
The point is, I do believe that 3ABN can and will survive any charge from the IRS with the appropriate changes in GAAP that the "auditors" frequently referenced. With the current board, I would suspect these are being addressed.
One issue that certainly comes out of this is, who will be the 3ABN scapegoat??? If you were the chief financial officer, would you be concerned???? I most certainly would be and would be actively cutting my own deal with the IRS. After all, if you are the Feds, with the book-keeper in your pocket, the case against the the perpetrators becomes enormously closer to airtight...so, if you are the book-keeper, distance yourself from 3ABN and become states evidence is the best deal for the book-keeper. And what happened to every major case from Capone to Enron? And so many, many in between? The book-keeper cut a deal!!!
Anyone want to give the book-keeper the lead investigators number??? Or does he already have it???
That's my perspective!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Yes, Knight, I'm afraid that what you write is all too true. It's why I previously wrote that this kind of litigation is often used by the rich and powerful to oppress those with lesser means.
Because of the points you raise, I don't believe that the solution will be found in the court system.
At this point, the only solution to be found is from God. That means we need to pray a lot *and* make sure we don't run on our own steam.
Inga
You have some valid points Joy. Unfortunately in the USA those with the gold makes the rules. That has been proven painfully true over and over again. It would be great if you could get a rich patron on your side. Unfortunately I am not one of those. You mentioned first amendment rights. Unfortunately those with the most gold can just outlast those with less money. By delaying and delaying and appeals after appeal until the poorer side just settles and runs out of money. I have seen this happen way to often.
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I just received this email response from BlueHost:
Hello,
We will comply with any court order or subpoena legally requesting information from us.
BH/HM/FD Abuse Department
1215 N. Research Way
Suite Q-3500| Orem, UT 84097
V: (888) 401-HOST | F: 801-765-1992
And I have received a similar reply. - - Johann
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When I spoke with someone in the sales department at BlueHost a few days ago, that person referred my question to someone in the legal department, who while declining to speak with me, gave me the message that she had sent out the information requested.
While it sounded like she was referring to the subpoena information, it wasn't clear because the message was relayed back to me by another person.
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I just received this email response from BlueHost:
Hello,
We will comply with any court order or subpoena legally requesting information from us.
BH/HM/FD Abuse Department
1215 N. Research Way
Suite Q-3500| Orem, UT 84097
V: (888) 401-HOST | F: 801-765-1992
This reply should not have been unexpected. Most ISPs will routinely comply. You can hardly expect them to take a stand for strangers paying 20 bucks a month or what they charge to host. They probably have it stated in their terms of service.
I really don't see how the ISP will be able to match up AdventTalk user id with IP addresses. The ISP does not have access to your Simple Machines software admin module, at least my host does not have it for BSDA (the password), nor would they have access to your database where the data is stored, again unless they have the password. Just my take.
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Well that's interesting, Calvin!
I wonder if 3ABN will go to a further extent to track down the ID's of their targets, or if this has been mainly an attempt at intimidation.
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Well that's interesting, Calvin!
I wonder if 3ABN will go to a further extent to track down the ID's of their targets, or if this has been mainly an attempt at intimidation.
Intimidation is their long suite isn't it? I believe this is just more of the same.
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Calvin,
Are you therefore saying that the ISP can't access this any more than a guest (non-member) can?
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I wonder if we will soon be seeing both subpoenas posted on www.save-3abn.com?
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I wonder if we will soon be seeing both subpoenas posted on www.save-3abn.com?
I think that would be enlightening to some to see just what interests 3ABN so much at this point, Snoopy,...I would like to see them both on the save-3ABN site also, and not just links!
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Calvin,
Are you therefore saying that the ISP can't access this any more than a guest (non-member) can?
On second thought, they may have a back-door entry to your SQL database. If that is the case, they can run queries to match the ids with the IP address.
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Calvin,
I wonder why they didn't subpoena your ISP as they did our ISP?
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Calvin,
Are you therefore saying that the ISP can't access this any more than a guest (non-member) can?
On second thought, they may have a back-door entry to your SQL database. If that is the case, they can run queries to match the ids with the IP address.
Calvin, does it take very much time for them to run inqueries to match IDs?
I am wondering just how much effort BlueHost will put into running down information.
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Calvin,
I wonder why they didn't subpoena your ISP as they did our ISP?
Well, they still might go after my ISP, especially now that I have lawyered up.
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Calvin,
Are you therefore saying that the ISP can't access this any more than a guest (non-member) can?
On second thought, they may have a back-door entry to your SQL database. If that is the case, they can run queries to match the ids with the IP address.
Calvin, does it take very much time for them to run inqueries to match IDs?
I am wondering just how much effort BlueHost will put into running down information.
Just nao-seconds to run and get results from the query. However, you would have to know the correct SQL syntax to run the query. I would not know how to do it, but it is a popular database lanuage that most message board software use (I am assuming Simple Machines uses SQL) so Bluehost probably has someone on staff or can find someone. But you make a good point, how much effort are they going to put into compling with the subpoena.