Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => Womens Ordination & Related Issues => Topic started by: Gregory on August 08, 2012, 04:41:28 PM
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http://session.adventistfaith.org/assets/392547
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http://session.adventistfaith.org/assets/392547
This is an amazing study of Ellen G White and her work in Australia while it traces her thoughts through the RH articles she wrote through that period, also about women in public evangelism.
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I seem to have made an error in my heading. This article seems to have been written by Bert Haloviak.
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I corrected the thread title, one post at a time.
Edit: Fixing a typo in the thread title in my own post.
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The problem is that there were two threads started, one for Haloviak (who, by the way, wrote material denying that the 1881 GC Session resolution ever passed), and one for Blazen, but the links in both were the same. Both links pointed to the same document by Haloviak.
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The human agents are to be laborers together with God, doing the same kind of work that
he came into our world to do. As long as it is in our power to help the needy and
oppressed, we must do this for the human beings whom Christ shed his own blood to save
from ruin....We cannot with our wills sway back the wave of poverty which is sweeping
over this country [Australia]; but just as far as the Lord shall provide us with means, we
shall break every yoke, and let the oppressed go free [Isa 58:6].
Ellen White to H W Kellogg, Oct 24, 1894
and J H Kellogg, Oct 25, 1894
From light which the Lord has graciously given to mother, and which she has written out
for the instruction of the Managers of the B.C. Sanitarium, and the leading men at the
General Conference, I learn that the Lord has chosen to use Australia, as field [sic] in
which to work out an object lesson for the benefit of his church, the world, and all, and in
which to demonstrate the power of the Gospel presented in the spirit and manner of his
counsels.
W C White to John Wessels, Mar 28, 1899
Until Ellen White wrote in the Review in 1895 that women who participated in ministry
"should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands," Seventh-day Adventists had
only three categories that allowed for ordination: pastor-evangelists, local church elders, local
church deacons. Sources indicate that no Seventh-day woman had been ordained to any of those
-1-categories prior to the Ellen White statement. 1 This paper probes the possibilities that Ellen
White is suggesting an entirely new concept of Seventh-day Adventist ministry to which
Seventh-day Adventist women should be ordained. Here's her statement in a fuller context in the
July 9, 1895, Review article:Women who are willing to consecrate some of their time to the service of the Lord should
be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the
poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands. In some
cases they will need to counsel with the church officers or the minister; but if they are
devoted women, maintaining a vital connection with God, they will be a power for good
in the church. This is another means of strengthening and building up the church. We
need to branch out more in our methods of labor. Not a hand should be bound, not a soul
discouraged, not a voice should be hushed; let every individual labor, privately or
publicly, to help forward this grand work.2
This paper attempts to probe the fullest context of Mrs White's statement to include the
Australasian understanding of ministry guided by Ellen White during the period 1893 to 1901.
This reviewer believes that the context reveals full-fledged ordination of Seventh-day Adventist
women to the most dynamic and progressive ministry fostered by Seventh-day Adventists to that
time.
Crucial to addressing this issue is the realization that at the time it was made, 19th
century Seventh-day Adventist understanding of ministry precluded the local church pastorate.
No Seventh-day Adventist church during this period retained what would be called a stationary
pastor who had jurisdiction over a local church. General Conference President O A Olsen
reaffirmed this to the Australasian Union Conference at its first session in February 1894: "A
minister should not be located with a church."3 Thus when the term "the minister" is used, it
means a minister under the jurisdiction of the conference or union conference who ministers
through that conference or union conference.
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Crucial to addressing this issue is the realization that at the time it was made, 19th
century Seventh-day Adventist understanding of ministry precluded the local church pastorate.
No Seventh-day Adventist church during this period retained what would be called a stationary
pastor who had jurisdiction over a local church.
Thanks for quoting that part, Johann.
Haloviak contends that Ellen White in Australasia in the 1890's was moving us toward having a settled pastorate. However, Ellen White's 1901 and 1902 letters to the brethren and sisters of the Iowa Conference, as well as other statements, seem to contradict that premise, since she took the position that our ministers should be primarily raising up new churches, not laboring in established churches.
But despite this possible flaw in Haloviak's reasoning, let's recognize the way Haloviak himself interpreted the 1895 quote you feel is so important: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/AST/Pastorate.pdf#Page=25
Ordination to the Christian Help Work.
Haloviak definitely feels that the 1895 statement justifies ordaining women to the gospel ministry, from what I can tell. But he also recognizes that the type of ministry Ellen White was referring to was Christian help ministry, and that is not the same as what WO proponents today want to ordain women for.
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The Ellen White Review Articles
Between June and December 1895, Ellen White printed articles in the Review every
2-week, almost all of which discussed an emerging concept of ministry designed specifically to
impact the large cities of both North America and around the world. Ellen White was especially
focused upon defining that ministry that began to pervade the Seventh-day Adventist Church
beginning at the 1893 General Conference Session and within Australia and New Zealand by
1894. In her 1895 articles 4 Mrs White addressed the impoverished conditions within Australia
and the inadequate working force to evangelize the cities: "The Lord's vineyard is a more
extensive one than the present working force is able properly to cultivate." She bemoaned that
ministers were too preoccupied with "sermonizing" to local churches and "those who know the
truth, instead of being used to enlighten the ignorant." "Every agency is to be set in operation, not
to work for the churches, but to work for those who are in the darkness of error."5 Mrs White
publicly informed the membership of her intentions as she focused upon Luke 14:23:
There has been so much preaching to our churches, that they have almost ceased to
appreciate the gospel ministry. The time has come when this order of things should be
changed....It is by engaging in earnest work, by hard, painful experience, that we are
enabled to reach the men and the women of our cities, to call them in from the highways
and the byways of life....O, it makes me so sad to see that so little is being done in our
cities.6
Gospel ministry is defined by Ellen White as reaching the "poor, the crippled, the lame,
the blind," as emphasized in Luke 14. In her July 9 article, Mrs White stressed the nature of the
ministry practiced by Christ: "Should not all have an opportunity to learn of Christ's methods by
practical experience? Why not put them to work visiting the sick and assisting in other ways."7
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The Articles and the Texts
In her urging of a new concept of ministry that would impact the cities, Mrs White
stressed a number of biblical texts that would be regularly used by herself and those fostering the
new focus upon ministry. Indeed, a major two-part article followed one month after her call for
ordaining women entitled "Draw Out Thy Soul to the Hungry," focusing upon Isaiah 58:10.8 As
she would consistently do during her Australasian ministry, Mrs White emphasized the ministry
of Christ to the poor and needy. Quoting Jesus, "They that be whole need not a physician, but
-3-they that are sick," she noted Jesus' quote from Isaiah 61 at the beginning of his ministry: "The
Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he
hath sent me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the
Lord."9 Interestingly, Mrs White emphasized those statements as a "prophecy" from Isaiah
fulfilled by Christ in His day, and also to be applied to the current situation in Australasia. In
urging the relevant ministry for her day, Mrs White as did Jesus proclaimed, "Brethren, the Spirit
of the Lord is upon me."10 She stressed Isaiah 58 as exemplifying the work that the ministry and
laity in Australia and indeed throughout Seventh-day Adventism was called upon to do:
In the fifty-eighth chapter of Isaiah, the work that the people of God are to do in Christ's
lines, is clearly set forth. They are to break every yoke, they are to feed the hungry, to
clothe the naked, to bring the poor that are cast out into their houses, to draw out their
souls to the hungry, and to satisfy the afflicted soul. If they carry out the principles of the
law of God in acts of mercy and love, they will represent the character of God to the
world, and receive the richest blessings of Heaven. The Lord says, "Then shall thy light
break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily; and thy
righteousness shall go before thee [Christ our righteousness]; and the glory of the Lord
shall be thy rear-ward."11
Another of the consistently used texts fostering the new ministry embraced by Seventh-
day Adventists sprang from Luke 14:23: "And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the
highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled." Mrs White
emphasized that the messengers were to go "into the streets of the city." The "compelling
message" was the message of working as Christ had done in His earthly ministry. 12
Again alluding to the experience of Jesus in Luke 14, Mrs White reflected upon the man
at the table "who did not relish the plain, practical truths" that Jesus presented in reference to
men's duty toward the poor. "He did not wish to follow Christ's instruction, and call the poor,
the maimed, the lame, and the blind, to a feast, when they could not recompense him." Mrs
White drew the implications for the new ministry to be embraced by Seventh-day Adventists:
We should remember that Jesus has purchased the fallen man or woman or youth that we
are tempted to despise. They may be giving themselves over to the power of Satan, and
may be uniting with Satan in obliterating the moral image of God from themselves and
from others, yet the Lord Jesus looks with yearning tenderness upon the debased and
-4-profligate....Shall those who profess to be laborers together with God look upon those
who are wretched, who are bruised, robbed, and left to perish by the adversary of God and
man, and pass by on the other side as did the priest and the Levite?...The Lord has left the
poor to the mercy of his church, not to be neglected, not to be despised and scorned, but
to be treated as the Lord's inheritance....Let us at once seek to realize what is our
obligation to the Lord's human family, and do our duty to as many as possible....[Christ]
has adopted the poor and the suffering as his own peculiar treasure, and has left them to
the care of his church. His disciples are to be stewards of his gifts, and to use his bounties
in relieving suffering humanity. They are to feed and clothe and shelter those who have
need. 13
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Thanks for quoting that part, Johann.
Haloviak definitely feels that the 1895 statement justifies ordaining women to the gospel ministry, from what I can tell. But he also recognizes that the type of ministry Ellen White was referring to was Christian help ministry, and that is not the same as what WO proponents today want to ordain women for.
You are welcome, Bob. Christian Help Ministry is what EGW advocates as true evangelism for that time period. Elsewhere EGW writes quite a bit about different approaches in evangelism for various classes of people, so there in no universal method. This is especially pointed out in the book Evangelism, where several pages are devoted to this subject
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Ellen White's Ministry to Australasia
In Australia, Ellen White saw a "new world, and a very great work to be done," and
observed, "The Lord designs that there shall be a true pattern in Australia, a sample of how other
fields shall be worked," and called for a "symmetrical" development of the work in that new
world. Her son, William C White observed:
It has been presented to Mother that Australasia is a field in which we will do a model
work, a work that will show to our friends and brethren in other lands how the
evangelistic work and the medical work should be carried forward in perfect agreement,
in perfect harmony, blended together.14
Early in her ministry in Australasia, Mrs White proclaimed to the believers:
Love to Jesus will be manifested in a desire to work as He worked, for the blessing and
uplifting of humanity. And the effort to bless others will re-act in blessings upon
ourselves....During the life of Christ, the sick and afflicted were objects of his special
care. The Saviour devoted more time and labour to healing the afflicted than to
preaching.
15
As early as April 1894, Mrs White identified with the Christian Help ministry
inaugurated by John Harvey Kellogg in the cities of America and described similar
methodologies being practiced in Australasia:
-5-I have a deep interest in the Home Mission work in which you are engaged. It is a great
and good work to relieve suffering humanity....Brother Hickox, who is laboring there
[Melbourne area] has done nobly. All alone he has pitched his tent and held
meetings....He has visited, given Bible readings, and conversed and prayed with
families....Brother and Sister Hickox have both had experience in missionary labor, and
they will take hold of the work together...The failure of banks, the financial pressure,
makes hard times everywhere in this country....We hear of people starving to death in the
cities, and nearly every day persons come to our door begging for something to eat. They
are never turned away.
16
Again in 1894, Mrs White described the kind of public ministry that she endorsed within
Australasia. She urged Elder and Mrs Corliss to embrace a ministerial team concept that would
become so successful in the Corliss ministry:
Do not wind up your work in Hawthorne in a hurry. Let persons be selected to give
personal labor. You can not be expected to do all that is essential in this line, and yet fill
your appointments in preaching the word. I have felt a deep interest for yourself and
Brother Hare that your labors shall be productive of great good. The Lord above can give
the increase. I can not believe that the work is all done in Brighton and Prahan, and
Hawthorne. It would be unwise to let the work stop in these places, and move to new
localities, when the work has not been really bound off. Brother Hickox has done well at
[Seven Hills]. He has preached much, visited, and given Bible readings. He has done a
large amount of personal labor from house to house, and the Lord has blessed this kind of
labor.
17
Mrs White constantly alluded to the impoverished situation she observed throughout the
Australian countryside, and especially within the cities: "Men are willing to do anything, and
women will do what they can, washing or working in any line, but money is very, very close in
this country."18 Mrs White saw a New Testament context for the ministry she was embracing for
the male and female laborers in Australia and sought to correct previous Seventh-day Adventist
understanding of ministry:
Too much dependence is placed upon preachers, while the house to house work is much
neglected. Paul, the faithful apostle, says, "I kept back nothing that is profitable unto you,
but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house." [Acts
-6-20:20]....Those who are laborers together with God will ever work in Christ's lines.
19
Ellen White described the Australian context to ministry to Stephen Haskell in August of
1894:
On every hand we see opportunities for using our means. Poverty and distress are
everywhere. I will not see the people suffer for the want of food and clothing so long as
the Lord gives me something to do with. I will dispense to the poor. Throughout New
South Wales we have been tested and tried with the epidemic influenza. Nearly every
family has been afflicted in the cities and country towns.
20
She shared with H W Kellogg her emerging understanding of a ministry to fit the
Australian context:
We are sorely perplexed ourselves to understand our duty to all these suffering ones. So
many families are out of employment, and that means destitute, hungry, afflicted, and
oppressed. I can see no way but to help these poor souls in their great need, and I shall do
this if the Lord will. And he does will. His word is sure, and cannot fail, nor be changed
by any of the human devices to evade it. We must help the needy and the oppressed, lest
Satan take them out of our hands, out of our ranks, and place them, while under
temptation, in his own ranks.
21
The next day she alluded to Isaiah 58 and hinted of the Seventh-day Adventist ministry
that would soon pervade Australia and New Zealand: "We cannot with our wills sway back the
wave of poverty which is sweeping over this country; but just as far as the Lord shall provide us
with means, we shall break every yoke, and let the oppressed go free."22
Mrs White's son William C White placed in his dairy a statement made by Ellen White at
the Ashfield campmeeting the next week; "Mother read to us a message about the work we must
do in the cities showing that we must work the cities & work them now."23 Because of Mrs
White's strong convictions about the kind of ministry relevant to Australia, she paid from her
own funds the salaries of two workers:
-7-The two men, Bro Collins and Bro Pallant, who are paid from my purse, have been doing
visiting, getting access to families, interesting them by personal labor, and giving them
Bible readings. Both are capable men, and will soon be ordained to the ministry. As much
depends upon the work of visiting, talking and praying with the people, and opening the
way of truth to them, as in giving discourses, and I could not let them go out of the
work....There are women of excellent ability, who, I think, should be connected with the
work. One, a worthy woman, has been a teacher on Norfolk Island....This sister, Edwards
by name, is a pre-possessing woman of excellent qualifications; and if I could make my
purse stretch a little further, I would say, "Sister Edwards, take right hold, and visit the
families you know are interested in the truth, and talk with them." We have no women
workers here now since we let Sister Walker go up to Queensland at the earnest call of
Bro Starr for women workers in the homes of those who are interested hearers of the
truth....The poor, our family have had to assist in food and clothing, and to help the
widow and fatherless by money gifts as well as food and clothing. This is a part of our
work as Christians which cannot be neglected. Christ said, "The poor ye have always with
you," and in this part of the Lord's vineyard, that it literally true. Doing good in all its
forms is enjoined upon the Lord's missionaries by the Holy Scripture. Read 2 Cor 9. You
see our work is not only to preach, but as we see suffering humanity in the world, we are
to help them in their temporal necessities.
24
It is apparent that both male and female workers in Australasia were performing what Mrs
White considered ministry in the fullest sense. If the conference lacked the funding she would
and did pay workers to do ministry and would support female workers if her purse could be
stretched farther.
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This is fully in accord with my previous understanding from my extensive reading of the writings of Ellen White, which I have always held in high esteem.
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"The Laborer is Worthy of His Hire"
This testimony dated March 22, 1898, clearly relates to circumstances in Australia and
New Zealand and clearly is relating to women who are defined as "laborers" beyond the local
church level and who, according to Mrs White should be paid from tithe funds. Indeed, this
testimony alone deals with every basic issue addressed in this paper, including ordination of
women. Here are some of those relevant issues:
Minister's wives are performing ministry as defined by Mrs White: "Some matters have
been presented to me in regard to the laborers who are seeking to do all in their power to win
souls to Jesus Christ. The ministers are paid for their work, and this is well. And if the Lord gives
the wife as well as the husband the burden of labor, and if she devotes her time and her strength
to visiting from family to family, opening the Scriptures to them, although the hands of
ordination have not been laid upon her, she is accomplishing a work that is in the line of
ministry."
24 Ellen White to Brother Harper, March 7, 1895, pp 2-5 H31b-1895, emphasis supplied.
-8-Such ministry is indicted by God, and thus in God's sight, that woman is ordained:
"Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are
recognized by God as being as necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands."
Women working beyond the local church level should be paid within the administrative
structure: "The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord's
order. Injustice is thus done. A mistake is made. The Lord does not favor this plan. This
arrangement, if carried out in our Conferences, is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying
themselves for the work they should engage in....
"Some women are now teaching young women how to work successfully as visitors and
Bible readers. Women who work in the cause of God should be given wages proportionate to the
time they give to the work. God is a God of justice, and if the ministers receive a salary for their
work, their wives, who devote themselves just as interestedly to the work as laborers together
with God, should be paid in addition to the wages their husbands receive, notwithstanding that
they may not ask this. As the devoted minister and his wife engage in the work, they should be
paid proportionate to the wages of two distinct workers, that they may have means to use as they
shall see fit in the cause of God. The Lord has put his spirit upon them both. If the husband
should die, and leave his wife, she is fitted to continue her work in the cause of God, and receive
wages for the labor she performs.
"Seventh-day Adventists are not in any way to belittle woman's work. If a woman puts
her housework in the hands of a faithful, prudent helper, and leaves her children in good care,
while she engages in the work, the Conference should have wisdom to understand the justice of
her receiving wages....
"If women do the work that is not the most agreeable to many of those who labor in word
and doctrine, and if their works testify that they are accomplishing a work that has been
manifestly neglected, should not such labor be looked upon as being as rich in results as the work
of the ordained ministers? Should it not command the hire of the laborer? Would not such
workers be defrauded if they were not paid?
"This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to
the women who labor in the gospel, whose work testifies that they are essential to carry the truth
into families. Their work is just the work that must be done. In many respects a woman can
impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this
kind of labor. Again and again the Lord has shown me that women teachers are just as greatly
needed to do the work to which he has appointed them as are men. They should not be compelled
by the sentiments and rules of others to depend upon donations for their payment, any more than
should the ministers."
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So let's summarize the situation as it appears right now:
- We should ordain elders.
- We should ordain deacons.
- We should ordain gospel ministers.
- We should ordain Christian help workers.
- We should ordain physicians.
This much is clear. What isn't clear to me is how we decide what to ordain and what not to ordain. Should we also ordain literature evangelists? Sabbath school superintendents? Sabbath school teachers? Church clerks? Church treasurers?
The first three in the above list seem to me to have to do with authorizing them to perform certain functions, with conferring authority.
The last three seem to me, perhaps, to have to do with setting apart for a lifelong calling. The first two wouldn't be lifelong since they are only elected to serve for a year at a time. But then, ordination of elders and deacons is for life, unless the individual is disciplined.
What in the Bible or SoP would help us know what positions or jobs we should ordain for and what we shouldn't?
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As we read on there is a good explanation who the Christian Help Workers are. Shall we permit Ellen White to give us the answer?
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Ministry for women as defined in the Australasian context is gospel ministry:
"There are
women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than
the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and
when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women."
Isaiah 56:1-8 applied to the Australasian context: '"Thus saith the Lord, Keep ye
-9-judgment, and do justice; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be
revealed....The Lord God, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to
him, beside those that are gathered unto him.'
"This is the grand and noble work that the minister and his wife may do by qualifying
themselves as faithful shepherds and guardians of the flock....
"Those women who labor to teach souls to seek for the new birth in Christ Jesus, are
doing a precious work. They consecrate themselves to God, and they are just as verily laborers
for God as are their husbands. They can enter families to which ministers could find no access.
They can listen to the sorrows of their depressed and oppressed. They can shed rays of light into
discouraged souls. They can pray with them. They can open the Scriptures, and enlighten them
from a 'Thus saith the Lord.'"
Doors should be opened for consecrated women to enter public, Conference-paid work:
"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this
work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth
earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field."
(Ellen White to
J H Kellogg, C H Jones, G A Irwin, Mrs Baker, March 22, 1898 ("The Laborer is Worthy of His
Hire," Ms 43a-1898).
That which Ellen White sought for the Australasian field, she likewise sought for the
local churches:
In the newly made churches converted men are to be appointed as officers. Humble
workers, both men and women, are to take hold of the work. There is a deep-seated
necessity for work in every line. There are to be no ornamental, adorning spirits in the
church. Appoint wise men and women to minister in word and deed in the new
churches.
25
About five years after Mrs White's 1895 statement about women to be ordained for
Australasian ministry, she made an elaboration that helps explain her intent:
After the camp-meeting the work should be continued. A number of workers should
remain, and a suitable place should be provided for a mission home. Consecrated women
should engage in Bible work from house to house. Thus they come close to the people.
Finding the sick, they pray with them, and do what they can for their relief from suffering.
Thus an interest is awakened, and hearts are won. The work is not left in uncertainty. The
workers do not follow impulse. Their work is to arouse the churches to do their duty as
Christians. Thus the ensign of truth is to be uplifted. In every place where no suitable
building can be secured, a church should be erected. And those who have received the
truth are to be instructed to look after the poor and the orphans. We are commanded to do
good to all men, but especially to those that are of the household of faith. It is right that
25 Ellen White to Brother Irwin, Oct 11, 1899, p 2 1-157.
-10-we should expect help from the community where the work is carried on.
26
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Johann,
Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.
But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.
Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.
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W C White and the Australasian Context
Soon after the formation of the Australasian Union Conference in 1894, President W C
White, A G Daniells, and W A Colcord, senior officers in the Union sent what they called an
"Epistle" to "the officers of the [local] churches" in Australia, Tasmania, and New Zealand. The
officers of the local church who should read this "epistle" first were listed as elders, deacons, the
clerk, the Sabbath-School Superintendent, and the Tract Society Librarian" and any other officers
if there should be any. The six-page listing of instructions signed by Union Conference President
W C White stressed that "The Church of God, is not only a fold where the sheep and lambs are to
be fed, but it also [is] an army, to be trained for conquest."
Because of the lack of a stationary pastorate within 19th century Adventism, the local
church was instructed:
The Senior Elder is Chairman of the meeting, unless another person is chosen to preside.
When a minister is present, he is by virtue of his position in the conference, a member of
the council, and if well acquainted with the affairs of the church, he may properly be
requested to preside.
27
Besides describing the various meetings relating to the local church, four subjects for
consideration were listed: 1. spiritual condition of the church; 2. business affairs of the church; 3.
missionary work of the church; 4. The Sabbath School. While the local church was asked to
respond to the "demands of the times" within its community and "who should be encouraged to
engage more extensively in the work" and "how may they labor to the best advantage" and
whether there was sufficient funding for the literature to be distributed, there was clearly no
provision at the local church level to finance local church members to engage in such work. The
local church would engage privately in the work that Mrs White described in her 1895 Review
and Herald statement of July 6, 1895.
In February 1895, W C White attended the New Zealand Conference proceedings as a
delegate at large. At that session, Margaret Caro was again voted the ministerial license by the
conference. That made her one of a number of Seventh-day Adventist women to be placed within
the ministerial category as Seventh-day Adventists defined ministry in the 19th century.
W C White's letter to his mother, February 25, 1895, gives significant insight into the
import accorded the women ministers in Australasia as directed by the Australasian Union
Conference:
26
Ellen White "The Work to Be Done," Feb 28, 1900 pp 7-8, emphasis supplied.
27 W C White "To the Officers of the Seventh-day Adventist Churches," nd. WCW Bk 4,
pp 470-75.
-11-Miss Walker was encouraged to go to Queensland, because we felt that the completion of
her training was a matter of much importance and we thought that Eld Starr was best
prepared to give her the instruction that she needed. If I am correctly informed, Annie and
Mariah Pierce, from Ballarratt, will soon be moving to NSW and after they have had a
visit with the Reekie family, they would no doubt be willing to engage in Bible work.
They are women of much experience, wisdom, and tact, and would be splendid help in
Sydney, if we could afford to employ them.
28
It is obvious that trained women Bible workers, paid by the Australasian Union
Conference from tithe funds, and crucial members of itinerant evangelistic teams, were
functioning throughout Australia and New Zealand prior to Mrs White's ordination statement of
July 1895. That fact should provide insight to Mrs White's expression: "let every individual
labor privately or publicly," in spreading the gospel message.
In a letter written May 1895, W C White makes it explicit that women ministers in
Australia were paid from tithe funds (as were the male Bible workers):
I believe that if a man and his wife who have had a good degree of experience with our
work in its various branches, would come here, and say, "Now I will identify my interest
with the brethren in Tasmania, for the building up of the work here, so long as the
brethren will stand by us, and the Union Conference think we should work in that field."
Then if he would situate himself so that his expenses were very small, so that he could
live on a salary that was commensurate with the small incomes of the brethren, I believe
that he would be able to stir them up to a more general, and more faithful payment of
tithes, and that before long, there would be enough raised in Tasmania, to pay the
minister, and to support one Bible worker besides 29
-
Johann,
Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.
But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.
Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.
That is not the question. Does it matter who's wife the woman is? The whole point is that Ellen White made it clear that these women are to be ordained, even if they are only working part time in evangelism. You have yourself stated several times that evangelism is the criteria, and not pastoring a large church. Here you have what you have been asking for. Ellen White laid out the divine plan for the gospel commission for that time. In all of your picking of articles you have demonstrated how many of these men refused to follow the divine plan to prove that they did not like female pastors. Your arguments are working against what you are trying to say.
Ellen White made out the blueprint about 130 years ago. Ordaining even part time women, so why not full time working women? You have been demonstrating how reluctant these men were at that time. With their reluctance they have kept back the work of God for more than a 100 years. Are you trying to praise them for their disobedience and rebellion? And are you praising people for remaining disobedient to the divine vision even today?
We should have been in Heaven by now - you know that. How do we ever get there as long as those pious looking people are holding back the force God had appointed already 130 years ago? Read it for yourself with your eyes open.
-
Christian Help Work
Among the evangelistic tools used by A G Daniells (president of the Australasian Union
Conference in 1899), at the Toowoomba campmeeting, were stereopticon slides of Seventh-day
Adventist institutions. They depicted the Melbourne Helping Hand Mission, the Sanitarium at
Summer Hill, NSW, the Adelaide Rescue Home for Women, the Napier New Zealand Bethany
Home for Women, the Orphanage, the Old People's Home. By 1899, Seventh-day Adventists,
because of the ministry known as Christian Help Work, were known throughout Australia and
New Zealand and had more than doubled their membership between the beginnings of that
ministry in 1894 and 1900.30
The Christian Help Work idea was introduced by John Harvey Kellogg at the 1893
28 W C White to Ellen G White, Feb 25, 1895, WCW Bk 7, p 201.
29 W C White to G T Wilson, May 7, 1895, WCW Bk 7, p 289-90, emphasis supplied.
30
From 1,146 in 1894 to 2,375 by 1900.
-12-General Conference Session when he presented a series of six studies on "Missions and
Missionary Work." Besides pervading the United States, it was soon introduced into Australia by
those studying under Kellogg at Battle Creek. It, however, assumed a different perspective within
Australasia. It demanded that its practitioners care not only for the physical health of the
individuals, but also that the "medical missionary" incorporate the skills of Bible ministry. A W
Semmens and Merritt G Kellogg were early examples of this combined ministry within
Australasia.
As early as January 1894, the Bible Echo in Australia reported the success of Christian
Help Work in the United States. Reported G C Tenney:
Another line of work that is being taken up by our people at the present time, and upon
which the blessing of God rests in a remarkable way, is the Christian Help Work, in
which organised bands of workers go about through communities seeking cases of
destitution or distress, and bringing relief in such ways as it is possible. This line of work
is in direct harmony with the Scriptures for our days. Isa 58; Matt 25:31-45, etc. An
opening for this kind of work appeared in Chicago, where an established mission passed
into the hands of the managers of the Sanitarium, and this is made the centre of practical
Christian work for the poor, unfortunate, and sinful of that great city. We are glad to see
the interest in this. At the last session of the General Conference, the Medical Missionary
and Benevolent Association was formed, and under the auspices of this society it is
designed to carry forward this work by means of auxiliary societies in churches
throughout the denomination.31
Indeed, the first meeting of the Australasian Union Conference at Middle Brighton,
Victoria, January 15-25, 1894, already indicated the direction the Christian Help Work would
take in Australia. With General Conference President O A Olsen in attendance and Dr M G
Kellogg giving instruction along medical lines at the Union Conference and G B Starr instructing
on how to give Bible readings, the Conference saw the potential for such work in Australia and
passed this resolution:
Whereas, Earnest appeals have been made by Sister E G White and others to our brethren
in Battle Creek and other places, who have had special opportunities to gain an
experience in the work of the third angel's message, and many have responded to these
appeals, and have expressed their willingness to go wherever needed, therefore,
Resolved, That we express our gratitude that many are giving heed to these appeals...and
we invite them to give due consideration to the following suggestions:...
Everywhere there is need for those who can care for persons in sickness, poverty, and
distress; hence, a training in nursing, "Christian Help Work," and Bible work, will be of
31 G C Tenney, "From the United States," Bible Echo, Jan 29, 1894, p 28.
-13-inestimable value.32
By August 1894, Christian Help Work was firmly embraced within the suburbs of
Melbourne. At the Prahan meeting August 11 and 12 the Christian Help Work as well as plans
for the soon-to-be-established Bible School (later to become Avondale College) were considered.
"The nature of the Christian Help work, its practical workings, and its needs were presented by
Brn Daniells, Semmens, Faulkhead, and White."33
Near the end of 1894, Anna Ingels, Australian Tract Society leader, described the
beginning of the Christian Help Work in Australia:
Some five months ago the Christian Help work was started under the leadership of
Brother Semmens. Seven bands were organized. The locality around the Echo office for
some distance was divided into districts, with one band to each. Each district had two
lady visitors, whose duty it was to make investigation and determine what help should be
given to the destitute cases reported. Through this means many of the poor and needy
have had their wants relieved and the gospel preached unto them. During the past six
months there has been a greater interest manifested in this church in the missionary
meetings than for years past, and the attendance has been increased fourfold. Bible
readings, gospel conversations, and the circulation of literature are the leading lines of
work. The Prahan society has been largely made up of the students of the Australasian
Bible School. As the students have visited from house to house with the Bible Echo and
with tracts, many souls have expressed their gratitude for these visits and publications,
and gladly opened their homes to Bible readings. The Christian Help work was organized
here also, and while it enabled the members to meet in some degree the temporal
requirements of many families, it also opened the way to point sin-sick souls to the
Saviour
34
It seems apparent that ministry defined as Christian Help Work involved training the
laymembers of the local churches in both visiting, reporting physical needs within the families of
the community, and in providing Biblical training to assist families along spiritual lines. While
those from the local churches were lay volunteers, those who trained them were supported
financially by the Australasia Union. Both Anna Ingels and A W Semmens were so supported.
Semmens would later be ordained to the combined ministry of Christian Help Work and Bible
worker.
In his series of sermons on the third angel's message at the General Conference Session
of February 1895, A T Jones linked to Isaiah 58, as did Ellen White, in a major scriptural
32 Proceedings of the Australasian Union Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, Jan 15-
25, 1894, Bible Echo, Feb 26, 1894, pp 62-63.
33 Bible Echo, Aug 20, 1894, p 164.
34 Anna L Ingels, "The Australian Tract Society," RH, Dec 4, 1894, pp 763-64.
-14-rationale for the Christian Help Work that was then becoming as the major evangelistic thrust of
the Church. At the session, he several times quoted the following from Ellen White:
Search heaven and earth, and there is no truth revealed more powerful than that which is
manifested in mercy to the very ones who need your sympathy and aid in breaking the
yoke, and setting free the oppressed. Here the truth is lived, the truth is obeyed, the truth
is taught, as it is in Jesus.
35
By the 1897 General Conference Session, delegates were reporting how the Christian
Help Work resulted in doubling their local church membership. Mrs S M I Henry, former
evangelist of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, soon to head the "Women's Gospel
Work" for Seventh-day Adventists, was asked to give an outline of her experience in Christian
Help Work as a member of the WCTU.36
Also by 1897, the Australasian Bible Echo in its column entitled "Bible Study" was
applying the typical Bible Reading plan of asking short questions and providing the scriptural
rationale for answering the question, and doing so giving the scriptural basis for Christian Help
Work. Such texts as Isaiah 58, James 1:27, Matthew 25:40 figured prominently in the analysis.
Also in 1897 the Bible Echo established a regular column entitled "Christian Help Work," and
also emphasized Isaiah 58 within its scriptural rationale.37
By the end of 1897 it had become apparent that the primary focus of the work in
Australasia in its evangelistic outreach was the Christian Help Work as defined and applied
within that division. In its tenth annual session, the Australian Tract Society reported the
following:
There seems to have been a growing desire on the part of our churches to conform more
nearly to our Saviour's method of work as revealed in His earthly life. Those engaging
most largely in Christian Help work have been richly blessed in an increasing spirituality
and brotherly love, and the work has resulted in removing prejudice and winning souls to
Christ.... Whereas, We believe that Christian Help work is the Lord's way of bringing the
suffering and lost to a knowledge of the gospel, and all who engage in this work are
greatly blessed: and Whereas, Experienced labourers have been sent to our field to
engage in this and kindred enterprises; therefore Resolved, That we give special
attention to this method of bringing the blessed gospel of physical, mental, and moral
salvation to the needy....[/quuote]A G Daniells, President; A L Ingels, Secretary.38
35 A T Jones, "Third Angel's Message No. 16," General Conference Bulletin, Feb 24,
1895, p 309.
36 General Conference Bulletin, 1st quarter, 1897, pp 63-64.
37 Bible Echo, June 28, 1897, pp 204-05; Dec 13, 1897, p 390.
38 "Australian Tract Society," Union Conference Record, Jan-Feb 1898, p 14.
-15-In 1897, W C White spent almost nine months in North America and published a number
of "observations" in the Review that gave his perception of the progress of the work in that area.
Certain of his observations make it apparent how pervasive the Christian Help Work was in
North America and the importance he attached to it as it was being practiced in Australasia. In
one of his reports, he bemoaned conditions at South Lancaster Academy, forerunner of Atlantic
Union College, because of "the entire absence of any special instruction to fit students to care for
the sick in connection with Christian Help work." White continued:
There is a great work to be done in our New England cities. The poor, the maimed, the
halt, and the blind of every nationality, are to be ministered to, and are to have an
invitation to the great supper....Christ healed the sick, comforted the discouraged, lifted
up the fallen, taught the ignorant, and preached the good news of the kingdom of
God....As an education and training for Bible work is necessary, so also is a thorough
education and training required that the worker may intelligently minister to the poor and
the sick. And as, from this time forward, ministering to the physical and spiritual needs of
the poor is to be carried forward by us hand in hand, is it not of the utmost importance
that the education in both these branches go forward unitedly and with equal attention?
I hope that the time has come when, in every one of our colleges and schools, as faithful
attention will be given to the thorough instruction of students in nursing and Christian
Help work as in Bible work. It is necessary sometimes to bring in an experienced minister
to stand at the head of the Bible work; let us take as much pains to secure able and
consecrated Christian physicians to perfect the work begun by teachers who are also
trained nurses....Now is our time to work in the large cities; and the work is so great, and
the laborers are so few, that we should at once take advantage of any measure that will
economize time, money, or influence.39
Medical Doctor, E R Caro, became a major figure in fostering the medical missionary
work in Australia. He summarized the work in Australasia as of early 1898:
A corps of thirteen medical workers, consisting of two physicians, ten nurses, and a
trained baker, are now at work in the Australasian colonies. Small companies have been
located in Sydney, Melbourne, and Perth, and in Christchurch, New Zealand. In addition
to the above, nurses are being trained in connection with the Health Home in Sydney, and
a special course in nursing, cooking, and hygiene, is being given by medical and scientific
instructors at our school in Cooranbong. As fast as workers can be trained, they will be
sent to churches in the different localities, to instruct those who are anxious to learn. The
Spirit speaks expressly concerning the importance of training young men and women to
become medical missionaries....
Opportunities are presenting themselves for engaging in work among the poor and the
39 W C White, "Observations-No. 2," RH, Jan 4, 1898, pp 11-12. Within six months,
Southern Lancaster Academy informed the Review readers that its instruction now included a full
year study in Christian Help Work and giving Bible readings. RH, June 14, 1898, p 383.
-16-needy. A home for released female prisoners has been established in New Zealand, and
several orphans are being cared for in private homes in Melbourne and elsewhere. In
addition, hundreds of visits have been made, and hundreds of treatments have been given
to those who could not afford to pay for medical attention. As our earning institutions
obtain the means to purchase better facilities for treating the sick, the increased income
will enable us to use more workers, and to spend more money in assisting the unfortunate
and the destitute....
None can doubt the necessity of putting forth more earnest efforts for the outcasts, the
widows, and the fatherless....No opportunity of doing good to suffering humanity should
be overlooked. Why not open our hearts and our homes to the needy, to the widow, to the
orphans, and to the aged?...Christian Help Work can be undertaken by all, for the Lord
has promised to help those who attend to the wants of the needy.
[Quoting Ellen White in RH, 1896] "The angels look upon the distressed members of
God's family on the earth, and they are prepared to co-operate with the human agent in
relieving oppression and suffering. When heavenly intelligences see those who claim to
be sons and daughters of God, putting forth Christ-like efforts to help the erring, and
manifesting a tender spirit toward the fallen, they press close to them, and bring to their
remembrance the words that will soothe and uplift the soul."
40
In July 1898, A T Robinson wrote of the ongoing Christian Help Work in Australasia:
It was my intention to have written concerning the work of the home for the aged, the
Helping Hand Wood Yard, the Laundry, which is to be opened soon, the work of caring
for the orphans, the establishing of the electric Light Bath Institution, etc; but I fear I have
already taken up too much space [in writing of the Helping Hand Mission of Melbourne],
so will conclude by saying that we expect, in a few days, to publish the first number of a
little paper called the "Helping Hand," the mission of which will be to report fully each
month on the various lines of Christian Help work carried forward.41
The New South Wales Conference, meeting July 21-26, 1898, considered that "The Spirit
of God is signally blessing the Christian Help Work in all parts of the harvest field," and
recommended that every church within that conference engage in the Christian Help Work.
During that session, delegates accepted the recommendations of the Committee on Credentials
and Licenses (W C White, F L Sharp, G F Goodman) to grant ministerial licenses to Christian
40 Dr E R Caro, "The Right Arm of the Message," Union Conference Record, April 1898,
pp 54-55.
41 A T Robinson, "Christian Help Work in Melbourne," Union Conference Record, July
15, 1898, p 81.
-17-Help workers A W Semmens and Dr E R Caro.42
In September 1898 the Bible Echo devoted its entire eight-page issue to what it called its
"Helping Hand Mission number." Articles described and pictured the Helping Hand and medical
mission building in Melbourne; it discussed the opening ceremonies on September 12, 1898, and
even described the details during the first night at the Mission. Within a month of its opening, the
Melbourne Helping Hand Mission evangelist W Knight reported conversions from the evening
gospel meetings. By November the Melbourne Helping Hand Mission was reporting major
newspaper recognition throughout Victoria and a strong ranking among the benevolent
institutions of Melbourne.43
In early 1899, Ellen White again strongly endorsed the ministerial thrust Seventh-day
Adventists fostered in Australasia:
It was thought that the time had fully come for us to make a decided effort to present the
truth to the eighty thousand people of Newcastle and its surrounding towns; and we knew
that the best possible way to do this was by holding a camp-meeting, following it with
tent-meetings, accompanied by visiting, Bible work, the selling of the Bible Echo and
religious and health books, and by Christian Help work and the establishment of a
medical mission. Repeatedly during the last five years, it has been presented to me that a
great work is to be done in the cities of Australasia, that the present is a favourable time
to work, and that no time should be lost; and recently light has come to me, encouraging
us to put forth greater efforts in Sydney, Melbourne, and Brisbane, and indicating that the
time has come for us to enter Newcastle and its surrounding towns.44
April 18, 1898, marked the formation of the Australasian Medical Missionary and
Benevolent Association that functioned to "give general oversight to all lines of medical,
missionary, and Christian Help work." Among those on the managing committee for the medical
missionary work was Licensed Minister, Mrs Margaret Caro. At its April 27, 1899 meeting
Association President A G Daniells, presented a string of Ellen White statements that provided
the spiritual and practical rationale for the work of that Medical Missionary Association:
"Much of the prejudice that prevents the truth of the Third Angel's Message from
reaching the hearts of the people might be removed if more attention was given to health
reform. When people become interested in this subject, the way is often prepared for the
entrance of other truths."
42 W L H Baker, Miss L Gregg, "New South Wales Conference," Union Conference
Record, Aug 15, 1898, pp 89-90.
43 Bible Echo, Sept 26, 1898; "The Melbourne Helping Hand Mission," Union
Conference Record, Oct 15, 1898, p 106; The Secretary, Melbourne Helping Hand Mission, "The
Helping Hand Mission," Bible Echo, Nov 28, 1898.
44 Ellen White, "The Newcastle Camp-Meeting," RH, April 11, 1899, p 225.
-
April 18, 1898, marked the formation of the Australasian Medical Missionary and
Benevolent Association that functioned to "give general oversight to all lines of medical,
missionary, and Christian Help work." Among those on the managing committee for the medical
missionary work was Licensed Minister, Mrs Margaret Caro. At its April 27, 1899 meeting
Association President A G Daniells, presented a string of Ellen White statements that provided
the spiritual and practical rationale for the work of that Medical Missionary Association:
"Much of the prejudice that prevents the truth of the Third Angel's Message from
reaching the hearts of the people might be removed if more attention was given to health
reform. When people become interested in this subject, the way is often prepared for the
entrance of other truths."
42 W L H Baker, Miss L Gregg, "New South Wales Conference," Union Conference
Record, Aug 15, 1898, pp 89-90.
43 Bible Echo, Sept 26, 1898; "The Melbourne Helping Hand Mission," Union
Conference Record, Oct 15, 1898, p 106; The Secretary, Melbourne Helping Hand Mission, "The
Helping Hand Mission," Bible Echo, Nov 28, 1898.
44 Ellen White, "The Newcastle Camp-Meeting," RH, April 11, 1899, p 225.
-18-
-
About 50 years ago we had about 4,000 SDA church members in Denmark. In recent years the number has been around 2,000.
A couple of years ago a couple of old friends from Denmark visited us here in Iceland, both of whom are serving as pastors in Denmark. Since then she has been following the divine pattern as described here in the churh where she has the responsibility. Now the weekly attendance is the double of what it was before, and last Sabbath they had their first baptism as a result. Following the divine pattern can never be wrong, no matter how many quotations you are able to dig up to discourage the church from following it.
-
http://www.atoday.org/article/1341/news/august-headlines/editorial-is-the-women-s-ordination-issue-about-unity-or-uniformity
The above consists of an comment on ordination and the role of women by David Newman a former Ministry Editor. It addresses many of the points posted here.
For those interested in SDA History, the above has attached a document that pertains to he September 1973 meeting in Mohaven OH relating to ordination and the role of women in the SDA church. It is of interest to see where the denomination was at that time.
-
St. Murphy’s Rule of Researching Religiously: “Read enough theological books and you will find someone who supports your beliefs. Corollary. have enough Bible translations in your library and you will find one that agrees with what you think a particular passage says.” Ron Birk. In Paul Dickson THE OFFICIAL RULES OF LIFE, 2000, PAGE 90.
I can not help but smile. :) :) :)
-
Johann,
Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.
But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.
Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.
That is not the question. Does it matter who's wife the woman is? The whole point is that Ellen White made it clear that these women are to be ordained, even if they are only working part time in evangelism. You have yourself stated several times that evangelism is the criteria, and not pastoring a large church. Here you have what you have been asking for. Ellen White laid out the divine plan for the gospel commission for that time. In all of your picking of articles you have demonstrated how many of these men refused to follow the divine plan to prove that they did not like female pastors. Your arguments are working against what you are trying to say.
Ellen White made out the blueprint about 130 years ago. Ordaining even part time women, so why not full time working women? You have been demonstrating how reluctant these men were at that time. With their reluctance they have kept back the work of God for more than a 100 years. Are you trying to praise them for their disobedience and rebellion? And are you praising people for remaining disobedient to the divine vision even today?
We should have been in Heaven by now - you know that. How do we ever get there as long as those pious looking people are holding back the force God had appointed already 130 years ago? Read it for yourself with your eyes open.
Johann,
Then is the problem that different people mean different things by "ordain"? And that currently we do not have different types of ordination for different types of ministry, other than minister, elder, deacon, and deaconess?
I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.
-
http://www.atoday.org/article/1341/news/august-headlines/editorial-is-the-women-s-ordination-issue-about-unity-or-uniformity
The above consists of an comment on ordination and the role of women by David Newman a former Ministry Editor. It addresses many of the points posted here.
For those interested in SDA History, the above has attached a document that pertains to he September 1973 meeting in Mohaven OH relating to ordination and the role of women in the SDA church. It is of interest to see where the denomination was at that time.
Gregory,
Is Newman advocating that unions and conference support the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes, or is he advocating that they instead rebel?
It's a simple question, and I think that before we go and read his material, we should know up front which side of the question he is on. After all, if the angels had known up front whether or not Lucifer was fomenting rebellion, everything might have turned out quite differently.
I'm not saying which side Newman is on. I'm asking which side Newman is on. And I'm not asking whether he is pro-WO or anti-WO. I'm asking whether he is pro-rebellion or anti-rebellion.
-
Is Newman advocating that unions and conference support the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes, or is he advocating that they instead rebel?
Bob, I have gone to the document and I have read it again. I do not believe that he addresses your question in that document. So, I cannot respond directly to your question.
That document is of major value in my thinking in that it gives some historical information about how this question has been addressed in the past.
-
Johann,
Could you please try again? You asked a simple question which has an answer that is self-evident from the 1895 quote you have cited over and over again. But then, rather than cite that quote or some other quote which defines Christian help work, you instead cite quotes that deal with the wives of ministers.
But maybe this explains some of the confusion. Perhaps you have assumed that Christian help work is identical to the gospel ministry, but thus far you haven't provided any quotes to that effect.
Certainly minister's wives can engage in the work of the gospel ministry, but that's quite different than saying that they should be the senior pastor of a church, usurping the role of the head elder, and should be ordained as such.
That is not the question. Does it matter who's wife the woman is? The whole point is that Ellen White made it clear that these women are to be ordained, even if they are only working part time in evangelism. You have yourself stated several times that evangelism is the criteria, and not pastoring a large church. Here you have what you have been asking for. Ellen White laid out the divine plan for the gospel commission for that time. In all of your picking of articles you have demonstrated how many of these men refused to follow the divine plan to prove that they did not like female pastors. Your arguments are working against what you are trying to say.
Ellen White made out the blueprint about 130 years ago. Ordaining even part time women, so why not full time working women? You have been demonstrating how reluctant these men were at that time. With their reluctance they have kept back the work of God for more than a 100 years. Are you trying to praise them for their disobedience and rebellion? And are you praising people for remaining disobedient to the divine vision even today?
We should have been in Heaven by now - you know that. How do we ever get there as long as those pious looking people are holding back the force God had appointed already 130 years ago? Read it for yourself with your eyes open.
Johann,
Then is the problem that different people mean different things by "ordain"? And that currently we do not have different types of ordination for different types of ministry, other than minister, elder, deacon, and deaconess?
Why isn't that sufficient?
I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.
-
It is dangerous to rely on what some one, some leader, or what some organization says. The GC has been wrong before and will probably be wrong again...after all they are just human beings too. We do need an organization but we need to study and read for ourselves. We can't blame the organization when we stand before God! We also need to question ourselves whether what I believe is right. It took me several years to believe what SDA's teach. Much of my proof came out of the Catholic Encyclopedia because of my preconceived ideas...and found the SDA organization was quite similar. I can at this time, only believe the GC is wrong.
-
Why isn't that sufficient?
Because the ordination that confers authority to baptize and organize churches is not the same as the ordination that Ellen White called for in 1895. But I think you already must realize that.
I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.
Then you have a problem, because what you then are advocating is the abolition of gospel order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Within Adventism we have never said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone, with or without ordination as a SS Supt. Never.
-
It is dangerous to rely on what some one, some leader, or what some organization says. The GC has been wrong before and will probably be wrong again...after all they are just human beings too. We do need an organization but we need to study and read for ourselves. We can't blame the organization when we stand before God! We also need to question ourselves whether what I believe is right. It took me several years to believe what SDA's teach. Much of my proof came out of the Catholic Encyclopedia because of my preconceived ideas...and found the SDA organization was quite similar. I can at this time, only believe the GC is wrong.
The issue is not whether the GC can be wrong. The issue is whether each man can do whatever is right in his own eyes, without a Bible or SoP mandate, to the point of exalting personal opinions and preferences above the vote of representatives of the entire world church at a GC Session.
-
Is Newman advocating that unions and conference support the 1990 and 1995 GC Session votes, or is he advocating that they instead rebel?
Bob, I have gone to the document and I have read it again. I do not believe that he addresses your question in that document. So, I cannot respond directly to your question.
Does not Newman state that WO is a moral issue, despite the claims of liberals even today that it is but a cultural issue, not a theological issue? Does not his casting it as a moral issue foment rebellion, unless he at the same time cautions against moving forward without authorization from a GC Session?
It is really curious that the liberals attack the anti-WO position by characterizing the issue as being only cultural, but then excuse their rebellion by morphing the whole WO debate into being about a moral issue. This smacks of worldly politics, and I think this was the same class of things that was happening in 1888 when Ellen White stated that she feared that there would have to be another coming out.
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Why isn't that sufficient?
Because the ordination that confers authority to baptize and organize churches is not the same as the ordination that Ellen White called for in 1895. But I think you already must realize that.
No!
I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.
Then you have a problem, because what you then are advocating is the abolition of gospel order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Within Adventism we have never said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone, with or without ordination as a SS Supt. Never.
Neither have I said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone.
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Why isn't that sufficient?
Because the ordination that confers authority to baptize and organize churches is not the same as the ordination that Ellen White called for in 1895. But I think you already must realize that.
No!
I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.
Then you have a problem, because what you then are advocating is the abolition of gospel order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Within Adventism we have never said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone, with or without ordination as a SS Supt. Never.
Neither have I said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone.
Then if that really is true, quit the games and engage in the discussion.
Above you stated, "No!" But you never said what you were saying no about. Were you saying no to the idea that the ordination Ellen White wrote about in LP 42 was different than the ordination she wrote about in 1895? If so, then you are ignoring the obvious. Were you saying no to the idea that you already realize that they were different? If so, then why did you only say no? Why didn't you also acknowledge that you had missed that point heretofore, and would take it into consideration in the future?
Your second statement is too brief as well given the context. I stated that I had no problem with ordaining women to be Bible workers, physicians, and deaconesses, but not as gospel ministers with full ecclesiastical authority to organize churches. You said that was ridiculous because you had baptized individuals while serving both as a church pastor and as a SS Supt., among other things. I then said that within Adventism, a SS Supt. is never authorized to baptize, with or without ordination. To that you said, "Neither have I said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone." So then, what was the point of your comment that my conclusion was ridiculous?
Quit the games and engage in the discussion.
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Why isn't that sufficient?
Because the ordination that confers authority to baptize and organize churches is not the same as the ordination that Ellen White called for in 1895. But I think you already must realize that.
No!
I have no problem with ordaining women to serve as Bible workers, or as physicians, or as deaconesses. What I have a problem with is ordaining women to serve as gospel ministers "with full ecclesiastical authority" (LP 42). We have no basis in the Bible or SoP for ordaining women to serve in that capacity.
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor. During a period of 2-3 years, my records state I baptized 17 souls. If you ask me in which capacity those souls were won, or under which hat I baptized, then I'd have to tell you it was under all of them. So for me your conclusion seems ridiculous.
Then you have a problem, because what you then are advocating is the abolition of gospel order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Within Adventism we have never said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone, with or without ordination as a SS Supt. Never.
Neither have I said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone.
Then if that really is true, quit the games and engage in the discussion.
Above you stated, "No!" But you never said what you were saying no about. Were you saying no to the idea that the ordination Ellen White wrote about in LP 42 was different than the ordination she wrote about in 1895? If so, then you are ignoring the obvious. Were you saying no to the idea that you already realize that they were different? If so, then why did you only say no? Why didn't you also acknowledge that you had missed that point heretofore, and would take it into consideration in the future?
I made a great mistake. I thought that word might ignite some independent thinking so we could start the discussion and avoid the games.
Your second statement is too brief as well given the context. I stated that I had no problem with ordaining women to be Bible workers, physicians, and deaconesses, but not as gospel ministers with full ecclesiastical authority to organize churches. You said that was ridiculous because you had baptized individuals while serving both as a church pastor and as a SS Supt., among other things. I then said that within Adventism, a SS Supt. is never authorized to baptize, with or without ordination. To that you said, "Neither have I said that a Sabbath School Superintendent is authorized to baptize anyone." So then, what was the point of your comment that my conclusion was ridiculous?
Quit the games and engage in the discussion.
I invite you to quit the game of changing the meaning of the words I do use, even if I express myself briefly. That would make it much easier to have a discussion. I never said in my original post that I had served as a SS Supt. I said I functioned as the Conference Director of Lay Activities, Youth, and Sabbath School. I was the only Departmental Director in the Conference, excepting the President who also served as the Director of the Ministerial Association, and I believe he had the Department of Religious Liberty as well. If you do not understand the difference between a Conference Director of SS, and a SS Supt., I invite you to read about it in the policy you quote so frequently.
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I made a great mistake. I thought that word might ignite some independent thinking so we could start the discussion and avoid the games.
And thus you evade actually engaging in the discussion, for you have failed to address the point being made. By default, then, we should be able to conclude that you concede that the ordination in LP 42 and the ordination referred to in the 1895 quote are not the same.
I invite you to quit the game of changing the meaning of the words I do use, even if I express myself briefly. That would make it much easier to have a discussion. I never said in my original post that I had served as a SS Supt. I said I functioned as the Conference Director of Lay Activities, Youth, and Sabbath School.
I did not change the meaning of anything. You never said anything about "the Conference." You said:
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor.
The word "Conference" isn't there, but the phrase "church pastor" is. I would not be the only one out there who would understand you to be referring to positions in the local church, especially since you were commenting on my statement about ordaining deaconesses.
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I made a great mistake. I thought that word might ignite some independent thinking so we could start the discussion and avoid the games.
And thus you evade actually engaging in the discussion, for you have failed to address the point being made. By default, then, we should be able to conclude that you concede that the ordination in LP 42 and the ordination referred to in the 1895 quote are not the same.
I invite you to quit the game of changing the meaning of the words I do use, even if I express myself briefly. That would make it much easier to have a discussion. I never said in my original post that I had served as a SS Supt. I said I functioned as the Conference Director of Lay Activities, Youth, and Sabbath School.
I did not change the meaning of anything. You never said anything about "the Conference." You said:
For a number of years I served as the Lay Activities, Sabbath School, Youth, Pathfinder, Communications Director, as well as a church pastor.
The word "Conference" isn't there, but the phrase "church pastor" is. I would not be the only one out there who would understand you to be referring to positions in the local church, especially since you were commenting on my statement about ordaining deaconesses.
I said: NO! I have made a point of it several times that I do not see Ellen G. White making any practical distinction between what you insist on calling the LP 42 ordination and the one in 1895. I see the difference in wording only a description of either side of the same coin, and I believe the study of her Australian articles in this very section makes that clear. Throughout the writings of EGW as gathered in a number of her books, such as Gospel Workers, Evangelism, and Testimonies to Ministers, she is giving varying pictures of the work of the pastor/evangelist. If you have a biased opinion of the work before you read these books, you might be able to define uncountable kinds of ordination, if you feel this is as important a doctrine as Justification or Righteousness by faith.
It is my honest conviction that Ellen Whites stresses that Jesus and salvation must always be the thrust and central point in every sermon, rather than by what kind of ordination certificate the preacher has received from his/her conference. Bringing the Gospel to the World is in reality all that counts. Or was Paul mistaken when he wrote in 1 Corinthians 1:17-18: "17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
Perhaps you ought to read and study the following article:
« August 2012 « Union News
Yes - The Bible does support the ordination of women to the gospel ministry
By Richard Davidson
On May 9, 2012, The Pacific Union Executive Committee voted (42 to 2) to authorize the Pacific Union to approve ordinations to pastoral ministry without regard to gender, and to call a special constituency session to amend the bylaws to make this action official.
The executive committee based their action on earlier Adventist studies that have determined that the Bible does not exclude women from pastoring churches or from ordination, but many delegates will want to review what the Bible teaches on this topic. The two articles that follow, both written by committed, loyal, conservative Seventh-day Adventists, provides a brief introduction to the most commonly discussed texts and the conflicting ways that some Adventists interpret those texts. For more detailed biblical studies on the topic, go to http://session.adventistfaith.org.
Richard M. Davidson, Ph.D, is professor of Old Testament Exegesis; chair, Old Testament Department, Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Mich. Davidson is a past president of the Adventist Theological Society. In 1998, an ad hoc committee from the seminary published the book, Women in Ministry: Biblical and Historical Perspectives (Andrews University Press, edited by Nancy Vyhmeister). Chapter 13, "Headship, Submission, and Equality in Scripture," was written by Davidson, who describes the following outline as a “handout” used in connection with that chapter.
Genesis 1 teaches us that male and female participate equally in the image of God. “So God created man [Heb. ha’adam ‘humankind’] in His own image, in the image of God created he Him; male and female created He them” (Gen 1:27). This foundational passage (and its surrounding context) gives no hint of a divine creation order. Here man and woman are fully equal, with no subordination of one to the other. We find that this description of the relationship between man and woman holds throughout Scripture and beyond. No inspired writer — not Moses, Jesus, Paul, or Ellen White — teaches the creation headship of man over woman. Nor has this position ever been accepted in the history of Adventism.
Genesis 2 reinforces Genesis 1. In Gen 2, woman is presented as the climax, the crowning work of creation. She is created from a rib from Adam’s side, to show that she is “to stand by his side as an equal” (Gen 2:21-22; PP 46). She is man’s ‘ezer kenegdo (“help meet for him,” Gen 2:18 KJV), which in the original does not denote a subordinate helper or assistant. Elsewhere in Scripture it is most often God Himself who is called ‘ezer (“helper”) (Exod 18:4; Deut 33:7, 26; Ps 33:20; 70:5; 115:9, 10, 11). The phrase ‘ezer kenegdo in Gen 2 means no less than an equal counterpart, a “partner” (Gen 2:18, 22 NEB). Contrary to popular argument, Adam does not name the woman (and thereby exercise authority over her) before the fall in Gen 2:23. Adam does not name Eve till after the fall (Gen 3:20). In short, Gen 2 contains no creation order subordinating woman to man or restricting her from entering into full and equal participation with man in any ministry to which God may call her.
Subjection or submission of wife to husband comes about only after the fall. A subjection of Eve to Adam is mentioned in Gen 3. God says to Eve: “Your desire shall be to your husband and he shall rule over you” (Gen 3:16). But it is crucial to recognize that the subjection of Eve to Adam comes after the fall. Furthermore, it is limited to the husband-wife relationship, and therefore does not involve a general subordination of women to men. This is precisely the consistent interpretation of Ellen White (see especially PP 58-59, 1T 307-308, and 3T 484) and The SDA Bible Commentary. The servant headship of the husband set forth in this passage can no more be broadened to men-women relationships in general than can the sexual desire of the wife for her husband be broadened to mean the sexual desire of all women for all men.
Paul’s writings maintain the Eden model. Paul gives much instruction regarding the relationship between husbands and wives. As can be seen by 1 Tim 2:14 (see also 1 Cor 14:34 and PP 58-59), it is ultimately in light of Gen 3:16 that he indicates the “head of a wife is her husband” (1 Cor 11:3 ESV) and calls upon wives to “be subject in everything to their husbands” (Eph 5:24). Such passages as 1 Cor 11:3-12, 1 Cor 14:34-35, and 1 Tim 2:11-12 all concern the issue of the submission of wives to their husbands and not of women to men in general. Furthermore, in 1 Tim 2:13, Paul is not arguing for a creation headship of man over woman as has often been assumed. Rather, he is correcting a false syncretistic theology in Ephesus which claimed that woman was created first and man fell first, and therefore women are superior to men. Because of this false theology, wives were apparently domineering over their husbands in public church meetings. Paul’s counsel for husbands and wives cannot be extended to the relationship of men and women in general. The apostle himself shows how the marriage relationship applies to the church. Husband headship in the home is not equated with male headship in the church. Rather, the Husband/Head of the church is Christ, and all the church — including males — are His “bride,” equally submissive to Him (Eph 5:21-23).
In the Old Testament we see numerous women in ministry, including leadership roles over men, thus confirming Genesis 1: the matriarchs of Genesis; Deborah (Judges 4 and 5), one of the judges over the people of Israel — women and men; Miriam (Exod 15:20-21); Huldah (2 Kgs 22:13-14; 2 Chr 34:22-28); Esther, and others (e.g., Exod 38:8; 1 Sam 2:22; 2 Sam 14:2-20; 20:14-22). And a host of women preachers (Psalm 68:11, ESV, NASB)! Although in OT Israel there did exist social inequalities for women, reflecting a distortion of the divine ideal set forth in Gen 1, there are no legal restrictions barring women from positions of influence, leadership, and authority over men. God’s original plan was that all Israel be a “kingdom of priests” (Exod 19:6). Because of Israel’s sin, an alternate plan was given in which even most men were excluded — except for one family in one tribe in Israel. Yet in the New Testament, the Gospel restores God’s original plan. Not a few male priests, but once more the “priesthood of all believers” (1 Pet 2:5, 9; Rev 1:6). Joel 2:28-30 predicts a time in the last days when both men and women will have equal access to the gifts of the Spirit (see also the radical new covenant promise regarding women’s roles in Jer 31:22, 31-34).
Jesus called His people back to the original plan regarding the role of women. In the NT, Jesus Himself set the tone for the Gospel restoration by pointing His hearers to God’s original plan “from the beginning” (Matt 19:8). He did not move precipitously, upsetting the very fabric of Jewish culture; He did not ordain women as His immediate disciples, just as He did not ordain Gentiles. But He pointed the way toward the Edenic ideal in His revolutionary treatment and exaltation of women (see John 4:7-30; Mark 5:25-34; Luke 8:1-3; Matt 15:21-28; John 20:1-18, etc.).
The Gospel ideal is the return to the Eden model. Paul emphatically declared: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female: for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Gal 3:28). This is not merely a statement on equal access to salvation among various groups (cf. Gal 2:11-15; Eph 2:14-15). Rather, it specifically singles out those three relationships in which the Jews had perverted God’s original plan of Gen 1 by making one group subordinate to another: (1) Jew-Gentile, (2) slave-master, and (3) male-female. By using the rare NT terms “male-female” (arsen-th?ly) instead of “husband-wife” (an?r-gun?) Paul establishes a link with Gen 1:27 and thus shows how the Gospel calls us back to the divine ideal, which has no place for general subordination of females to males.
Within the cultural restraints of his day, Paul and the early church (like Jesus) did not act precipitously. The subordination of Gentiles was difficult to root out (even in Peter! [Gal 2:11-14]). Slavery was not immediately abolished in the church (see Eph 6:5-9; Col 3:22; Phlm 12; 1 Tim 6:1). Likewise, women did not immediately receive full and equal participation with men in the ministry of the church. However, Phoebe is mentioned as a “deacon” (Rom 16:1); Junia was a female apostle (Rom 16:7), and leaders of the church at Philippi were women (Phil 4:2-3). Priscilla assumed an authoritative teaching role over men (Acts 18), and the “Elect Lady” (2 John) may well have been a prominent church leader with a congregation under her care.
Paul’s list of qualifications for elders framed in the masculine gender (“husband of one wife,” literally, “a one-wife husband” [1 Tim 3:1-7, Titus 1:5-9]) does not exclude women from serving as elders any more than the masculine gender throughout the Ten Commandments (Exod 20; see esp. vs. 17) exempts women from obedience. Rather, these passages are again upholding the Edenic ideal — the principle of monogamy (Gen 2:24).
God does not speak directly to the question of the ordination of women in the NT, just as He does not deal directly with the abolition of slavery, with vegetarianism, abstinence from alcohol, and many other issues based on principles set forth “from the beginning.” But He has given clear Biblical principles to guide our decision-making.
In these last days God has called His church to return to His original blueprint for every area of our lives: our diet, our day of worship — and the three human relationships mentioned in Gal 3. God calls us to return to the Edenic ideal for male-female relationships that allows women equal access to the gifts of the Spirit (Joel 2:28-30; Eph 4:11-13). As the Spirit gifts women for ministry, “distributing to each one individually as He wills” (1 Cor 12:11), may the church follow the Spirit’s leading!
In the interest of brevity, references for further study were edited out of this outline. To read the entire outline with references, go to http://session.adventistfaith.org and click on Bible Texts in the left sidebar.
I apologize for my thinking that you were so familiar with SDA Denominational terms from all of your studies of the POLICIES that you realized the term "Director" is generally used on the Conference/Union level and not on the local church level, where I have never heard of a Sabbath School Director, but rather a superintendent. Such terms become a part of your vocabulary when you serve for many years in that capacity.
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Okay, Johann, then let's try again. Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of an elder, a deacon, a minister, and a physician? And are you thus saying that the only two types of ordination that you see no difference between is that of a minister and of a deaconess/Christian help worker?
Remember, the 1895 quote was specifically talking about ordaining women that were not the ministers. The quote itself plainly shows that.
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Okay, Johann, then let's try again. Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of an elder, a deacon, a minister, and a physician? And are you thus saying that the only two types of ordination that you see no difference between is that of a minister and of a deaconess/Christian help worker?
Remember, the 1895 quote was specifically talking about ordaining women that were not the ministers. The quote itself plainly shows that.
It is my perception that in what Ellen White wrote during her stay in Australia she is supporting a new emphasis on evangelism where women are to take part, joining hands with the more experienced misters whose responsibility it is to support this kind of evangelism. And these female evangelists are to be ordained, and she makes absolutely no distinction in the way that ordination is to take place from how other pastor/evangelists are to be ordained.
I also find it remarkable that EGW never makes a negative remark about the previous proposal that women be ordained as minsters, which was never fulfilled. As far as I can determine the next mention by her of an ordination, is the ordination of these female evangelists, and what a blessing to the church these will be in bringing the gospel to the families.
My question is why did the GC not follow further this heavenly vision, or wasn't EGW moved by the Holy Spirit?
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Okay, Johann, then let's try again. Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of an elder, a deacon, a minister, and a physician? And are you thus saying that the only two types of ordination that you see no difference between is that of a minister and of a deaconess/Christian help worker?
Remember, the 1895 quote was specifically talking about ordaining women that were not the ministers. The quote itself plainly shows that.
It is my perception that in what Ellen White wrote during her stay in Australia she is supporting a new emphasis on evangelism where women are to take part, joining hands with the more experienced misters whose responsibility it is to support this kind of evangelism. And these female evangelists are to be ordained, and she makes absolutely no distinction in the way that ordination is to take place from how other pastor/evangelists are to be ordained.
1. In the 1895 quote, what distinction did she make between the ordination of Christian help workers, and local elders or local deacons?
Please answer the above question.
Also note that the 1895 quote specifically says, "Women ... should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands." Note that the LP 42 statement mentions nothing along these lines, but instead mentions "full ecclesiastical authority" to organize churches and baptize. So clearly, you are wrong when you say that she makes "absolutely no distinction."
Will you break the cycle by acknowledging your mistake?
I also find it remarkable that EGW never makes a negative remark about the previous proposal that women be ordained as minsters, which was never fulfilled.
2. Do you not also find it remarkable that EGW never makes a negative remark about the previous proposal never being adopted?
Please answer the above question.
As far as I can determine the next mention by her of an ordination, is the ordination of these female evangelists, and what a blessing to the church these will be in bringing the gospel to the families.
Women today are free to bring the gospel to as many families as they want. The real problem is that we don't employ enough Bible workers today, much less Christian help workers. Not ordaining women to the work of organizing churches and ordaining elders and deacons is not hindering any women from taking the gospel to any families.
My question is why did the GC not follow further this heavenly vision, or wasn't EGW moved by the Holy Spirit?
What heavenly vision are you referring to? A heavenly vision to ordain women to serve as Christian help workers, not as gospel ministers who organize churches and baptize? Thus far that's the only heavenly vision you've cited.
We might also ask why we fail to send our ministers out to raise up new churches, why we don't ordain physicians when they leave Loma Linda, why we wait until church buildings are paid off before dedicating them when they are supposed to be debt free the day we move in, why we have camp meetings in the same place year after year when we were told not to, why physicians get paid so much more than ministers, why we haven't passed around a pledge to go vegetarian, etc., etc.
But just because we've failed in so many ways to follow the counsel God has given us, that does not justify abolishing the distinction of the roles of men and women God ordained to be in the home and in the church.
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Okay, Johann, then let's try again. Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of an elder, a deacon, a minister, and a physician? And are you thus saying that the only two types of ordination that you see no difference between is that of a minister and of a deaconess/Christian help worker?
Remember, the 1895 quote was specifically talking about ordaining women that were not the ministers. The quote itself plainly shows that.
It is my perception that in what Ellen White wrote during her stay in Australia she is supporting a new emphasis on evangelism where women are to take part, joining hands with the more experienced misters whose responsibility it is to support this kind of evangelism. And these female evangelists are to be ordained, and she makes absolutely no distinction in the way that ordination is to take place from how other pastor/evangelists are to be ordained.
1. In the 1895 quote, what distinction did she make between the ordination of Christian help workers, and local elders or local deacons?
Please answer the above question.
Also note that the 1895 quote specifically says, "Women ... should be appointed to visit the sick, look after the young, and minister to the necessities of the poor. They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands." Note that the LP 42 statement mentions nothing along these lines, but instead mentions "full ecclesiastical authority" to organize churches and baptize. So clearly, you are wrong when you say that she makes "absolutely no distinction."
Will you break the cycle by acknowledging your mistake?
Bob, I am not in the habit of writing something one way and let it mean something else. When I wrote the way that ordination is to take place
I meant what I said and not what you interpret me to say.
Just outside my window stands a truck with a crane. A son intended to take our refrigerator to the repair shop on this truck. Then last night when he and his two sons got the refrigerator they decided to do it in another way. They placed it in a van, which was also available, and that is how they brought it to the shop. The repairman wanted it in his shop where he has all of the equipment to do the job, so this is the way we did it, and the way he does things.
EGW makes it clear how these women are to be ordained, They should be set apart to this work by prayer and laying on of hands.
Is this way much different from the way pastors/evangelists are to be ordained?
May I humbly ask that in our discussions we take the words at face value.
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You're being unreasonable, Johann.
This part of our discussion started with your objecting to:
Because the ordination that confers authority to baptize and organize churches is not the same as the ordination that Ellen White called for in 1895. But I think you already must realize that.
And you want to reduce the discussion to merely whether both types of ordination involve the laying on of hands? Even after I already posted:
Okay, Johann, then let's try again. Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of an elder, a deacon, a minister, and a physician? And are you thus saying that the only two types of ordination that you see no difference between is that of a minister and of a deaconess/Christian help worker?
Everyone can see that the ordination of an elder or a deacon as much involves the laying on of hands as the ordination of a minister. If there is no difference in the ordination of elders, deacons, and ministers, then there is no difference between elders, deacons, and ministers. But of course there is a difference.
Thus, there can be a difference between Christian help workers and gospel ministers, even though both are set apart by the laying on of hands, especially since the quote said that Christian help workers may need to counsel with the minister.
If you were trying to be reasonable about all of this, you would now acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of elders, deacons, physicians, ministers, and Christian help workers.
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Your response does not surprise me any more because you will never understand what I am trying to say.
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I am having a problem locating the actual quote by Ellen White, therefore, can somebody quote it here with reference?
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Okay, Johann, then let's try again. Do you acknowledge that there is a difference between the ordination of an elder, a deacon, a minister, and a physician? And are you thus saying that the only two types of ordination that you see no difference between is that of a minister and of a deaconess/Christian help worker?
Funny but I find your tone exceptionally condescending, Bob.
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Your response does not surprise me any more because you will never understand what I am trying to say.
What you are trying to say is that it is all right ordain women to be local pastors of local churches. But you resist discussing that general point to see whether it is sound or not, because you want to hold on to it even if it isn't sound. Am I correct?
I take your failure to address the point regarding there being differences between various types of ordination to be a concession that there indeed is a difference between the ordination of elders, deacons, ministers, physicians, deaconesses, and Christian help workers.
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Your response does not surprise me any more because you will never understand what I am trying to say.
What you are trying to say is that it is all right ordain women to be local pastors of local churches. But you resist discussing that general point to see whether it is sound or not, because you want to hold on to it even if it isn't sound. Am I correct?
I take your failure to address the point regarding there being differences between various types of ordination to be a concession that there indeed is a difference between the ordination of elders, deacons, ministers, physicians, deaconesses, and Christian help workers.
No comments!