Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: JustWondering on October 12, 2010, 06:54:33 PM
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http://cgi.ebay.com/TOMMY-SHELTON-HE-STAYED-CROSS-LP-SEALED-MINT-/330483407949 (http://cgi.ebay.com/TOMMY-SHELTON-HE-STAYED-CROSS-LP-SEALED-MINT-/330483407949)
Someone must be cleaning out their closets. Anyone know where the picture on the album cover was taken at? It is tragic to think that the piano was used as bait to bring horror into the lives of so many.
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That photo was taken at the former First Church of God in Benton, IL.
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Post removed. Inappropriate content.
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I do not think it is up to us to find 'final solutions' for any one, Gailon.
In the medium term the courts of the land will find a solution, which thankfully in your country and mine does not include such
things as crucifixion, stoning and other barbarities.
For the longer term, God is the Judge.
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Very true Emma, but this is one of the reasons we all should realize & shun the very ones that want it in this country from the comments that Gailon in bringing to ones attention. Seems ones that want Shiira (?spelling)law and the likes of their chosen political agendas that they voted for are alive and kicking into common place anymore.
But for a matter of fact I cannot see a better outcome for TS for what he did. I still am deep angry inside for these types of possessors of evil to the young and Innocent.
IF a person does not understand this evil or have sympathy and lean to help the perp in these worst of crimes, go to where you can see children that are so young and abused in this manner and see what you come away with. You do want someone to do something to those that did it. It is a bad feeling to have and can't blame anyone for those type of actions.
Wonder why the Lord had them put to death? I so imagine they went clear over the line of his "Plan of Life". It is plain, they went to far and the mind is too sick to recover as the perpetrator. When they finally get caught, the devil finishes them and claims they are his. He already belonged to Satan to do acts over and over for the perps pleasure. Sick, sick, sick and sick relatives that did not get him help and sympathized with it at its first inclination in their total fear of his evil upon others. Fact is they did not or must not cared what he would do to others. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for out of order sexual acts and Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt for even looking back. Hmmm, (Pillar of salt???) Didn't Danny look back? Pillar of salt huh.... I saw him recently and he looks like a "french fry" . I hope the judge knows what he is doing. and if he doesn't, I hope someone calls O'Reily.
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John Manley is a good man and among the righteous.
He has Danny in his cross-hairs. That's bad news for Danny.
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I do not think it is up to us to find 'final solutions' for any one, Gailon.
In the medium term the courts of the land will find a solution, which thankfully in your country and mine does not include such
things as crucifixion, stoning and other barbarities.
For the longer term, God is the Judge.
However, I will point out that criminal minds do not subscribe to the Geneva Convention Nor do they subscribe to the guarantees of the United States Constitution. And in fact, their victims can be deprived of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” in all too many ways.
I suppose I would be easily accused of believing that those who work outside the code of civil conduct have in some form abrogated their rights and that is why we “jail them” in cells complete with bathroom, a bed and feed them 3 squares, provide phone time, exercise facilities, a law library, regular library, access to the internet, newspapers, television, and even “conjugal” visits. Not to mention free legal counsel and free medical care to avoid the consequences of their open and notorious sin.
However, much to your chagrin, there is a biblical basis to believe that perpetrators deserve punishment in like kind to the criminal action of the perpetrator. I will also point out that the bible specifically subscribes “stoning” as the punishment for adultery, and I frankly understand why it was viewed with such abhorrence in a “Theocracy” and Leviticus is full of thou shall nots related to various forms of adultery and the punishment required…proof of the insidiousness that wholesale adultery, pornography, prostitution and the wholesale promiscuity that can result,( not to mention the use of children and other hapless victims) that affects in society is everywhere about us and is a large reason that we suffer from the affects this miscreant behavior leads to throughout society.
I have NO SYMPATHY for these perpetrators in all their forms and look forward to a day when they all receive their just punishments…in the interim, yes, I support the DEATH PENALTY for adulterers in all their form. Pedophiles take away the entire life of the children they victimize and steal from them the dignity and security they deserve. The victims usually suffer from a form of Post Traumatic Syndrome that can be worse than combat stress in all its horrors.
So, yes, PEDOPHILES DESERVE A DEATH BY CRUCIFIXION to atone for the victims whose lives and security have been stolen and should suffer long and painfully for the crime they have committed against society and it’s children. It is an appropriate deterrent!!!
I do believe we will return to a societal abhorrence of these crimes and properly so and I predict we will be INDISCRIMINATE, unlike some of our islamist Muslims. And we should be!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Tinka seems to be afraid Sharia law may come into effect in more parts of the world and Gailon is upholding
some of the punishments it requires.
Gailon I can read the Old Testament.....were those same punishments in effect in the Christian era? We are not in a theocracy now.
Not chagrin.....just deep sorrow that anyone could show the spirit evident in your posts in this thread. It is almost as though you
are exalting in the painful downfall of these men.
Yes the crimes of paedophilia and adultery are horrible. I have personally been affected by the latter though not the former. I would
never want to see my former spouse stoned. I pray he can return to the things he once treated as important.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone....who here could line up to do that?
We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.
edited for clarity by Emma.
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Gailon I can read the Old Testament.....were those same punishments in effect in the Christian era? We are not in a theocracy now.
Not chagrin.....just deep sorrow that anyone could show the spirit evident in your posts in this thread. It is almost as though you
are exalting in the painful downfall of these men.
Exalting in the painful downfall of these men???? How about the simple concept that "THESE MEN" need to pay the consequences for the damage they, in tandem, have done to so many over the years and it needs to be ended, PERMANENTLY.
I do not find anything in New Testament principals that would abrogate the principal of paying the consequences for your open and notorious violation of others rights and privileges.
I beleive that in current society we have gone to the opposite extreme and allow perpetrators far too much sympathy and leniency, not to mention far too much benefit of the doubt.
I will note that the pain and suffering of the spouse and children of adulterers can be far too far reaching and economically devastating to allow the behaviour to simply be allowed without consequences.
And stoning is a perfect deterent to to even the consideration of this conduct. It has become proliferous because it goes unpunished and the perpetrators move on without consequences while the victims pay horrendous prices. NOT ACCEPTABLE.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon is there any reliable evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent against murder?
That is a genuine question, perhaps you are aware of things I am not. Is the murder rate lower in those States in the US where
capital punishment is frequent?
Using similar reasoning, do you think your ideas about preventing adultery are realistic?
If I am going to get personal......when my spouse left me, I had to realise that God did not love him any less than God loved
me....and holding onto the pain and bitterness and wanting my ex to be unhappy/punished/embarrassed would only hurt my
children, and hold back my recovery.
Any child abuse is horrific...in my opinion the first objective is to make sure s/he cannot reoffend. I still happen to believe punishment is in the realms of the courts in this life, and from God in the next.
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Per Gailon: "regular library, access to the internet, newspapers, television"
That's the ticket right there. Other prisoners will have no difficulty accessing the internet to find out what Tommy's crimes are.
That's why I stated before that it is important that Tommy's sentence include prison and that he is determined healthy enough to be among the general prison population.
Let their code of justice sort things out.
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Yes the crimes of paedophilia and adultery are horrible. I have personally been affected by the latter though not the former. I would never want to see my former spouse stoned. I pray he can return to the things he once treated as important.
Let him who is without sin cast the first stone....who here could line up to do that?
We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God.
edited for clarity by Emma.
I realize the concept is less than acceptable to “civil” society in the current historic period.
Let me point out that when Christ was asking “let him who is without sin, caste the first stone”, he was speaking to the perpetrators, some of whom had lead the this young lady into a life of sin. This assumes you believe the Spirit of Prophecy enlightenment on this issue.
The premise that no sinner is to participate in the punishment of another sinner is perverse. Yes, it is true that we have ALL sinned and FALLEN SHORT, but it does not preclude us from imposing a death sentence upon perpetrators of DEATH SENTENCE CRIMES against society. God, specifically “The Word” gave us clear instruction on how to handle adultery in its various forms. Our failure to open our eyes to the insidiousness of the crime and why “THE WORD” required it be a Death Penalty Crime is proof of our blindness to the requirements of God and why Danny Lee Shelton can get away with his actions and remain working for a REMNANT messenger. It is why Tommy Ray Shelton has not been punished and brought to justice, and similarly all the priests and other “pastors” that get away with death penalty crimes.
I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM THROWING THE FIRST STONE…and there were plenty in Israel that could easily have qualified, but the men that set up the young lady did so to trip up the Master of the universe… then realized He knew THIER sins, pointed out their sins and could cause them to suffer the same fate as the victim of their ploy. Thus they fled from the scene lest they suffer the consequences of their sins. Yes, Emma, they fled not from “stealing cookies” but because they had “unclean hands” but were themselves adulterers, AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN STONED. It was about hypocracy!!!
Our problem is that we have so diluted the consequence of sin we no longer recognize the levels of sin for what they are. Stealing cookies is not punishable by death. Destroying the life of another IS!!! And adultery and pedophilia destroy the lives of the victims…they deserve a death sentence and if we had one there would be far less of it.
We as a “CIVIL” society have gone so far from the principals of an orderly society we are now reaping the whirlwind of that abrogation worldwide with SELF GRATIFICATION being an absolute RULE OF LAW without regard to the consequences upon others. It is why we have a banking and foreclosure problem in the USA and why the world has lost all confidence in US collateralized paper. It is why we pretend to be the a noble and just empire while it is really about perpetuating our economic self interest, without regard to the impact upon the victims of our economic colonialization. It is why we send our “Divisions” and the Generals that command them (the Romans called them Legions) worldwide and why we have a “DEFENSE” budget bigger than nearly the entire worlds armies. It is why we can demand that other countries devalue their currencies or change their ”retirement age” while our own society depends upon their willingness to perpetuate our economic needs and “early retirement” runs rampant. It is why we do not mine our own resources or drill for our own oil but would rather import billions of gallons from the world and pass the resulting risk to environment on to others while we strive for a “clean, green” environment.
It is why we spend BILLIONS ON SOCIAL SERVICES for the results of our sins of open and notorious adultery, pornography and pedophilia for the victims, frequently innocent victims, thereof. Society has so decayed we no longer recognize the results of this “modern” view and the results it has rent upon Amercian Society in the name of “FREEDOM” without consequences. We are so close to the same insidious values that lead to the fall of Rome, I have no alternative but to believe that we have “FILLED OUR CUP” and it is only the Grace of God for some unknown reason that prevents our complete destruction as it is most certainly the end result of our loss of values.
Unfortunately, Emma, I have no sympathy for the “ex” and you can rest assured he will pay the penalty for his sin, whether you find it acceptable or not…and note that I am sure that you and yours suffered mightily while he played without regard to the consequences. Rest assured I would vote for and throw the first stone!!!
If I had not felt so strongly about this, I would never have spent the time and effort I did pursuing justice for DLS and TRS. I am sorry you are so reticent on the issue, but I am uncompromising!!!
And where do you really stand??
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon is there any reliable evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent against murder?
That is a genuine question, perhaps you are aware of things I am not. Is the murder rate lower in those States in the US where
capital punishment is frequent?
There is the most obvious proof of this...those who are caught and are executed do not get the opportunity to kill again...and can you imagine just how pervasive "murder" would be if people knew it would not be punished???even by jail time???...I would propose that murder would be as prevalent as adultery...and prove it otherwise.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon is there any reliable evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent against murder?
That is a genuine question, perhaps you are aware of things I am not. Is the murder rate lower in those States in the US where
capital punishment is frequent?
There is the most obvious proof of this...those who are caught and are executed do not get the opportunity to kill again...and can you imagine just how pervasive "murder" would be if people knew it would not be punished???even by jail time???...I would propose that murder would be as prevalent as adultery...and prove it otherwise.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
I was asking about real statistical proof, your argument presupposes that most murderers will reoffend. And that statement does not answer the question about comparative rates of murder in States where the punishment is different.
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If I am going to get personal......when my spouse left me, I had to realise that God did not love him any less than God loved
me....and holding onto the pain and bitterness and wanting my ex to be unhappy/punished/embarrassed would only hurt my
children, and hold back my recovery.
Any child abuse is horrific...in my opinion the first objective is to make sure s/he cannot reoffend. I still happen to believe punishment is in the realms of the courts in this life, and from God in the next.
I will again point out, yes, God loves the sinner and offers redemption, but the wages of sin is Death, and other than those whom have the great opportunity to "walk with God" in a perfectly sinless relationship post International Sunday Law, the rest of us will feel it's bite.
However, the more important point is that while God does offer an offer of Redemption, He does not and has not given any evidence that man is not to suffer the consequences of his sins upon society.
And yes, if one commits adultery and the penalty is death, he must suffer the consequences, however, the Lord in his Mercy has made available a "resurrection" for those who confess, repent, reform and take their consequences like only a man in Christ can do.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Where do I stand on what, Gailon?
On punishment to be meted out to adulterers and paedophiles in general, and in the Sheltons in particular?
On what should happen to my ex?
I have stated my position several times......it is not up to individuals to determine temporal punishment. By all means bring the
perpetrators to justice if possible, but I do not consider that lay people (of which I am one in a legal sense) have the right to
perform as judge, jury and 'executioner'.
(King) David did worse things than many others, but he sincerely and totally repented. As God will know the condition of the sinner's heart the final punishment will be just.
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"I was asking about real statistical proof, your argument presupposes that most murderers will reoffend. And that statement does not answer the question about comparative rates of murder in States where the punishment is different." Emma
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My argument is logical...statistics on this issue are usually compiled by anti-capital punishment groups and are logically meaningless as in most states if you are caught for "murder" in the first degree, you will pay with either the death penalty after a dozen years or more of appeals or you will spend the rest of your life incarcerated in a maximum security prison. And you just may get away with murder with the right attorney.
However, the statistics for murderers who are released is in fact not good as many, if not most, will re-offend. And many of these will be killed by police in the chase to avoid incarceration after they "kill" yet again.
And perhaps that is the proof that killing killers saves lives as the newspapers over the years of my life have been replete with the stories of killers released who kill yet again and are killed in the chase. THAT IS PROOF THAT KILLING KILLERS DETERS MURDER.
However, if you would be willing to prescribe a "life sentence" as an alternative to the Death Penalty for Adultery, I would say that even that is some deterent....in the inverse, since the death penalty fails to sufficiently deter murder by way of your definition, should we just let it go unpunished???
And again, I assert, no punishment for murder would likely make it just as prevalent as adultery and I would suggest that there is evidence to support that in lawless ungoverned parts of Africa, for example.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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(I have technical difficulties replying to quoted posts.)
There are some things on which Gailon and I may not find common ground. Neither of us is bringing any proof to this discussion,
just personal deductions from our respective positions. And discussions of that nature can become convoluted and bitter.
That is as it is.......and way off the topic of the response I initially made in this thread.
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Gailon is there any reliable evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent against murder?
Emma,
"How carefully God protects the rights of men! He has attached a penalty to wilful murder. "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed" (Gen. 9:6). If one murderer were permitted to go unpunished, he would by his evil influence and cruel violence subvert others. This would result in a condition of things similar to that which existed before the flood. God must punish murderers. He gives life, and He will take life, if that life becomes a terror and a menace. Mercy shown to a wilful murderer is cruelty to his fellow men." (2SAT 186, 187)
It is interesting that God never instituted jail time for crime.
We are not under a theocracy. Civil governments today can only regulate man's relationship with man, not man's relationship with God. They can only enforce the second table of the 10 Commandments, not the first.
However, the death sentence for murder, which God prescribed in Gen. 9, long before Mt. Sinai and the nation of Israel, must be fairly administered, irrespective of wealth or fame or social status or lawyers.
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As I see it, Sharia (thanx) law goes into and eye for an eye and the taking of life from daughters that fall in love outside their beliefs, it takes away all freedom of choice. It is forceful. Jesus came and changed their eye for an eye. Moses was given a set of commands that Gailon is right on. and some commands of punishment was from God to His people..and then their is the people that were not God's people outside the realm of things.
Now in our day and time where perfection of law keepers of individuals is hardly any where to be found, I still find difference in the levels of sin. But what ever God commanded for His righteous people and all things created and the wisdom of Lucifer on it all gave Lucifer great advantages to destroy what God had done..as we all know. Always a duplication( Sabbath,Chrismas, Easter, etc.etc.) always a way to undo God's law or distort.
So in the process of "punishment" using the death penalty punishment, Satan mastered it to be in misuse and evil in societies without almost no righteous left found away to "switch blame "and kill the innocent. Many have suffered the "blame" of the guilty.
Even though I do believe that the guilty should be done as prescribed with agreemeant of Gailon and Biblical, but I must draw the line for the protection of the innocent blamed and executed now as we watch all within reason of actions as Satan always newly develops new plans. So I would no longer unless guilty"with no doubt and extreme witness of more then 2 would I vote for death penalty. Otherwise no, I have changed my mind on it because of the devils use of it against the innocent. Therefore, let them set and rot and get what is in prison for them to get. It all comes out in the end. I really believe what goes around comes around. There are times and getting to be more and more with me that God "does the punishment" when we can't determine proof without doubt or counteract it. We see more and more the evil coming down until there in nothing but overwhelming powerless against the greed, murder, molestations, killing of children etc. that Jesus just must now come and end it.
OJ Simpson was a case of that very fact. They can argue all day long about they know, they think and they believe he did it. He can write a book and "dance around with the public" in a book. But I for one would have voted not guilty simply because there was too much other ways that could have been with the wife's and sisters agendas. I watched it everyday and picked out many flaws that they never even brought up or mentioned for other possibilities. No witnesses, no conviction and no blame. Only God knows 100% and then in that case it is purely up to God for the punishment. But one thing one does not realize is the double jeopardy they then let happen to OJ with the civil case of which is supposed to be against our law. Hmmm, It was not even Karma in the end for OJ but a setup. We had close friends of OJ in the keys of Florida. OJ told them way before but not sure of what things were going to happen to him. He did not comply with........So if He did do it the Lord only knows for sure. If we do not see, If we do not have evidence beyond circumstantial then we can not convict according to our instructions "find " "guilty".
One of the worst cases they did all this was the trial of "Jesus". That should be our example to follow the instructions for claiming "guilty". Jesus was never guilty!!
Our case, we were never guilty of all accusation drummed up but had all documents proving otherwise. The church members brought on the political and the political brought on our loss. It was just plain injustice. and hang on to your socks that way down the line of our loss -the Karma is one setting in jail for murder and you out there know who it is. God knows what they did for greed of what someone else was given by God. How it became ours is a book in its self with no doubt what God gave us. So deceivement of Satan is a great thing to cause us to have more discernment and nix the cloak of evil and when in doubt be careful of what you do and trust no man and let God do His mysterious acts. Years have now taught us. Was it possible for God to use us to test others and us too? Maybe!
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Bob, my point was not whether or not the death penalty should be available for murder. That is a whole other
discussion.
Gailon seems to believe that the death penalty is a deterrent to murder, and that some severe punishment
for adultery would be a deterrent for that crime/sin.
I was trying to ask whether there is evidence that severe punishment is a deterrent to others who might be tempted
to commit that sin. Gailon stated that killing a murderer would prevent reoffence. Obviously that is correct...but it does not
answer what I asked.
Tinka, I find your comments on the Simpson case interesting, both for itself and as an example. I did not follow it as closely
as you have.
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Well, let me clarify that logic dictates that if a murderer is dead he cannot kill again. That is a clear deterrent. It also eliminates the danger to guards and their families as well as other inmates and their families. These are statistics the anti-death penalty liberals fail to measure, not to mention the frequent failure that parole boards came to deal with as murderers foregiven or granted privilege all too frequently damage or destroy more lives despite the opportunity at a second chance. The penalty for murder must be the death penalty.
However, the premise that statistics somehow support the premise that the death penalty is not a deterent is a falacy as it does not take into account that every state imposes either death penalty or life without parole. It is foolish to assume that punishment for a crime is not a deterent, whether lifelong incarceration or death penalty...and I will assert that if there were no punishment, as we almost unanimously adopted for Adultery, pornography and even pedophilia, that murder rates would sky-rocket.
And, as Bob has pointed out, such an environment was pervasive ante-deluvian.
By eliminateing the punishment for Adultery, et al, as a society we have innoculated ourselves to the root of so many societal ills. And we reap the whirlwind that results from this decline in abhorrence for adultery, et al. It has just become another source of pain and suffering accepted as "just part of life" and not the vicious crime against the victims and society that it really represents.
Punishment would inevitably be a deterent!!! No punishment encourages abhorrent behaviour.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I know that if Tommy or Danny type went after one of my children, then there would be no trial for them. But for what I would do to them, there is not a jury in this country that would convict me for it.
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Just wanted to also add that for what John Manley has done and for what he is doing, he is among the remnant. One of the righteous among nations...
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As the days go by and I see and hear what people would like to do in the name of religion, I am very grateful that I do not live in a theocracy where they could impose their execesses on the population in the name of God, EGW and Bible. When good is used to justify evil, that good ceases from being good. And when evil is used to perpetuate good it negates the good and the whole thing becomes evil.
We can talk about the barbaric actions of the Taliban, the Inquisition, and the Roman Colliseum, but in the name of religion or politics even the most civilized people quickly turn into inhuman beasts, using God to justify it.
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Murcielago,
What would you suggest for a solution? or the correct way to deal with molestations of youth and what and how it should be done? I think God has one suggestion of putting a noose around your neck with a stone and put in the sea. That it would be better to do that then the ultimate.
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By some of the comments on the site, if I were Tommy, I would be worried about my life, if the Judge ruled in my favor and gave me no jail time. While I believe that Tommy needs be punished since he says he is guilty, corporal punishment by someone on this site should not be considered. His life is not worth someone elses.
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Murcielago,
What would you suggest for a solution? or the correct way to deal with molestations of youth and what and how it should be done? ...
Tinka, did you miss the answer???
“As the days go by and I see and hear what people would like to do in the name of religion, I am very grateful that I do not live in a theocracy where they could impose their execesses on the population in the name of God, EGW and Bible.” Murcielago
It is clear Murcielago has little regard for God’s Ideal Society, a/k/a a “theocracy”…or for the messages given to the world defining just what would be in their best interest and the ideals they should reach for. Bible instruction is defined as “excesses”!!!
I believe Murcielago, the bull known for having survived 28 spanish bullfighting swords, or maybe it is the Lamborghini “supercar”, although I shall presume the former, has made it very clear he does not find the theocracy of Israel an acceptable socio-governmental structure. Or is it that he simply finds the application of those same great principals to a modern world “revolting” and has not yet figured out that the reason he was subjected to 28 swords was the failure of the United States or the world we live in to abide by God’s ideal socio-governmental plan for a Judeo-Christian society???
“When good is used to justify evil, that good ceases from being good. And when evil is used to perpetuate good it negates the good and the whole thing becomes evil.” Murcielago
And here we have a clear message that capital punishment is “evil” and only “grace” for perpetrators and murderers ought to be considered. To clean up a murderous society full of sexual perpetrators by invoking capital punishment is evil and the whole concept of accountability is evil!!! I believe that is the correct and logical translation of his statement.
“We can talk about the barbaric actions of the Taliban, the Inquisition, and the Roman Colliseum, but in the name of religion or politics even the most civilized people quickly turn into inhuman beasts, using God to justify it.” Murcielago
And the summary is that religion and politics is the real root of all evil and what is really wrong with the world, so much so that religion and politics will turn people into “inhuman beasts”… now I think that is pretty clear answer to your question!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I would suggest life in prison.
Murcielago,
What would you suggest for a solution? or the correct way to deal with molestations of youth and what and how it should be done? I think God has one suggestion of putting a noose around your neck with a stone and put in the sea. That it would be better to do that then the ultimate.
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Gailon, to the contrary, I firmly believe in capital punishment. There are crimes that should certainly be met with a death sentence. But to put a person through torture is not necessary. Dead is dead. We don't need to become what we fight against.
But you are correct that I would not care to live in a theocracy of any kind, governmental or corporate. Iran, 3ABN, Waco, the Taliban, Jonestown... the list goes on. When human rulers claim divine authority over their subjects, and claim to rule in the name of a god, terrible things follow.
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Good point Murcialago...
The 3ABN cult sees themselves as being above the law. That's why Danny Shelton thought his presence and his threats would frighten Tommy's victims into complete compliance with him.
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Gailon, to the contrary, I firmly believe in capital punishment. There are crimes that should certainly be met with a death sentence. But to put a person through torture is not necessary. Dead is dead. We don't need to become what we fight against.
That sounds appropriate to me.
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A liitle waterboarding could help scare a mind clean...
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Tinka, did you miss the answer???
No I don't think so but,(smile) I wanted it a little more precise of what actually he would do for the punishment of admitted guilt. I know what he said but also have stated on here how the "punishment of death" can be used against the "innocent" under manipulating circumstances of perps to throw blame on someone else without the proper witnessing that is called for under the now "death penalty". We also have very enthusiastic police officers and prosecutors that like to make points.
In this case there is witnesses. There is admitted "guilt". I believe all should be done with at least "reasoning" of Biblical instructions. " Guess in reality, almost all Bibical "reasoning" in gone this late in time and evil exploding and no way to turn it around until Jesus comes. We are in it, deal with it and seek the best possible way in human compassion where "compassion" is almost gone. This "type of sin" has very little if no compassion from "normal" reasoning and it is no longer up to just the people of God to administer the "punishment" but the laws of the land we have to go with whether we like it or not. So therefore I would agree that life in prison would be the best solution. Life in prison for TS would be the "death penalty" according to your story of the young man that committed the "unpardonable" sin. The only thing in "compassion" on this type of sin might be how and what "kind of gardening" made the "seed" grow distorted. So shall we return to the "eye for eye" concept? and who would let us??? I believe in death penalty when and only when their is no room for doubt, and several witnesses as we are instructed, compassion in the right place and reasoning the biggest factor of all. James..reason in all things.
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And yes, Tinka, we should be very cautious in use of the death penalty. Over-zealous, unscrupulous prosecutors have sent too many innocent people to their death. In my opinion they should be tried for murder. It is easy for people to get carried away and become what they abhore.
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...And satan would devise a cross for each one of us, if he had his way. Unfortunately for you, Gailon, Jesus died for TS and DS while they also "were yet in their sins".........IOW, BEFORE they sinned, He knew they would sin........just like us. Because in God's eyes sin is sin, whether it is a little white lie or child molestation, they ALL of the same consequence........"the wages of sin is death" There is no sin greater than the price paid by Christ. Yes, we all do deserve that death, but Christ took it upon Himself and forgave us, paid the price for our past, present and future sins on that cross............."but the gift of God is eternal life".
Now, that is the model of forgiveness you and all of us should be working towards.
Quote removed.
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Scripture says- Vengence is Mine-sayeth the Lord.....I know that there must be punishment for the laws that have been broken. It used to be that the punishment fit the crime, I am not sure that is the case any longer. Locking someone up for the rest of his life to be raped repeatedly is not exactly the type of of punishment anyone deserves- except maybe another rapist or pedophile and then I am not so sure. I wish I could say, I would be able to forgive, if it was my child that had been molested, but I might feel just like horsethief and want the punishment to fit the crime.
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I would suggest life in prison.
And are YOU prepared to spend your share of the time required to guard "on the wall" or "in the yard" with these "inhuman beasts"???
I am not, and I don't want to ask any other human to take that risk. Hades is their home and they should be sent there!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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If Tommy doesn't get jail time, then his wherabouts will be discovered and the community he is in will be made well aware that there is a dangerous predator living among them.
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I suppose TS will suffer the same fate as most sex offenders and have to register where ever he lives. Also, here in California, they have had a difficult time placing some, even after prison time, if the community was alerted. This is the life TS'sunfortunate choices have made for him and his family.
The reason God says Vengance is His, because we really need not do anything. Besides, the eternal judgement, which is God's alone, the more practical is that each sin carries it's own more immediate consequences. Tommy's is a tortured mind and life filled with lies, deception, and, yes, pain. He was never ti liflict that pain upon anyone else, let alone innocent teens/young men over whom he was in authority. But as we all know "hurting people, hurt others". At some point somebody in their familyy will have to be determine with God's help they will break this devastating cycle of abuse. Until then, there will be more and more victims, and not only from TS.........
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But here's the good part, Mrst. Forgiveness by no means releases the offender from the consequences of their actions. So TS can be forgiven by everyone involved, and justice would still need to be done. He would still need to be on trial for his crimes. Sins carry their own consequences, and forgives by no means release us fromt hose consequences.
Examples: Adam and Eve. Forgiven: yes. Stillhad to leave the Garden, etc. My Favorite David: Forgien: yes. Baby still died, house still jacked, etc. God forgives, but as we see, we are by no means released from the natural consequences of our sins.
I believe we all really need a study on what forgiveness really is.
Scripture says- Vengence is Mine-sayeth the Lord.....I know that there must be punishment for the laws that have been broken. It used to be that the punishment fit the crime, I am not sure that is the case any longer. Locking someone up for the rest of his life to be raped repeatedly is not exactly the type of of punishment anyone deserves- except maybe another rapist or pedophile and then I am not so sure. I wish I could say, I would be able to forgive, if it was my child that had been molested, but I might feel just like horsethief and want the punishment to fit the crime.
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I don't know if King David ever faced any instances of child molestation in his kingdom. But I am absolutely certain that if he did, then the molestor would have faced a swift and public execution...
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I don't know if King David ever faced any instances of child molestation in his kingdom. But I am absolutely certain that if he did, then the molestor would have faced a swift and public execution...
That depends.
The man who claimed to have killed Saul at Saul's request was speedily executed. The men who murdered Ishbosheth were speedily executed.
But Amnon raped his sister Tamar, and David did absolutely nothing. His own sin of adultery with Bathsheba, and David's murder of his loyal servant, the converted Hittite Uriah, had brought him to the place where he could not justly and promptly deal with vile sin. And that unfortunate problem led to Absalom's rebellion.
If Tamar was under 18 and Amnon was over 18, in some jurisdictions Amnon's crime might be called child molestation, correct?
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True... I don't know how they handled things like that back then. A man raping a boy or a girl. Both situations I believe warrant life in prison.
Tommy couldn't restrain himself when it came to boys. Just like Danny can't restrain himself when it comes to teenage girls. We all know what I'm talking about.
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Since God never ordained the use of jail time for crimes in Israel, I question whether that is the correct remedy. Given the dire effects on people's lives, I see His wisdom in prescribing the death penalty for rape and such.
But note that there were certain conditions that had to be met. For people caught in adultery, both the man and woman were to be punished equally. Not just the woman. And only in the city. In the country it was assumed that the lady had cried for help and no one could hear her. In other words, if you didn't want to get punished in the city, you had to cry out for help.
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I went to ASK.com to check and see what the punishment under the Jewish Law was for pedophila. Funny, I found no specific punishment. Under Jewish Law- girls are allowed to be married at any age- it doesn't say that, the the marriage is allowed to consumated,tho. Under Israeli Law,however, they said, no girl under 17 had been married. I then asked about the Bible punishment for pedophilia- Nothing specific again.. But several scriptures were given-Jesus stating about not hurting the little ones, not committing fornication. The best one was that sex should be within marriage,by a man and wife.... Can't be clearer than that...pedophilia was wrong.... but still couldn't find any specific punishment. Punishment for fornication was flogging.So I guess the punishment for pedophilia would be flogging. Not a bad punishment.
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True... I don't know how they handled things like that back then. A man raping a boy or a girl. Both situations I believe warrant life in prison.
Tommy couldn't restrain himself when it came to boys. Just like Danny can't restrain himself when it comes to teenage girls. We all know what I'm talking about.
Rape is the most insidious adultery with the use of force by the more powerful over the weaker...Life not allowed...a death sentence for sure. These brutes need not exist.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Since God never ordained the use of jail time for crimes in Israel, I question whether that is the correct remedy. Given the dire effects on people's lives, I see His wisdom in prescribing the death penalty for rape and such.
But note that there were certain conditions that had to be met. For people caught in adultery, both the man and woman were to be punished equally. Not just the woman. And only in the city. In the country it was assumed that the lady had cried for help and no one could hear her. In other words, if you didn't want to get punished in the city, you had to cry out for help.
I would point out the cities of refuge were a form of "jailed sentence" as the perpetrator, if found not guilty of murder, could only live safely within the gates of the city.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Horsehief, I am not so sure about this. David did absolutely nothing about the rape of his daughter. I think one of his problmes was that he was this mighty warrior king, but his household was a mess. I believe the rape of Tamar by her half brother Amnon and David's inaction that ws part of Absalom's dis respect and anger with his father.
However, there is evidence of what you say in David's initial reaction to Nathan's story of the sheep...that is before he knew the story was about him.
Ok I must practice reading all posts before reponding. Bob caught this one already. LOL!!!
I don't know if King David ever faced any instances of child molestation in his kingdom. But I am absolutely certain that if he did, then the molestor would have faced a swift and public execution...
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Well I would happily execute a child molestor. I would be a righteous man for doing it.
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Well I would happily execute a child molestor. I would be a righteous man for doing it.
You can pull the trigger, and I would give life imprisonment cause I can't pull the trigger. :'( Either way is :(
Guess it comes from me being a little nuts. ;)
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No doubt a child molester does need to pay the price for their crimes. However, Horsethief. you seem to be quite eager to dole out life and death to others. I must admit, that is a bit disturbing.
Well I would happily execute a child molestor. I would be a righteous man for doing it.
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http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PRIEST_ATTACK?SITE=CAANR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Note there is a copyright charge if you post the whole article without the accompanying ads. That is why I only posted the link not the article.
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This man is truly sick and I can't believe he is not in jail. Maybe is caring for other pedophile clergymen and they just didn't tell us... :scratch:
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That priest deserved to be beaten by the man he abused. What was he doing working in that retirement home anyway?