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[Bob Pickle]

Johann,

If helper "of many, and of myself also" does not mean that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul, then it doesn't mean that Phoebe was a ruler over "many" either, and if it doesn't mean that, then the word translated "helper" doesn't mean "ruler" or "leader." And if the word doesn't mean that, then the article is wrong, period.

Of course, if I ignore the wording of Rom. 16:2, then I might just buy into the fallacious reasoning of the article. But we're supposed to stick with Scripture, aren't we?

[Gregory]

A person could be a ruler over a segment of a congregation (In the SDA Chruch, Elders are often given a group of peopole over which to exercise spiritual leadership.). the local congregation as a whole, a group of congregations, a geographic area and/or the denomination as a whole.

I will suggest that your point is invalid, Bob.

[Bob Pickle]

If you feel my point is invalid, Gregory, then tell us in what manner you believe that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul.

[Johann]

Following your argument, Bob, then the president of the North American Division and the Adventist Biblical Institute should be your rulers, and it is your duty to follow their understanding and definition of the mandates given them by the general assembly.

Since when was that responsibility handed over to you? Don´t you carry any responsibility in how you deal with your leaders as defined here:

The Bible teaches us to beware of lightly bringing accusation against those whom God has called to act as His ambassadors. “Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19. He who has placed upon men the responsibility of leaders and teachers of His people will hold the people accountable for the manner in which they treat His servants. The judgment visited upon Miriam should be a rebuke to all who yield to jealousy and murmur against those upon whom God lays the burden of His work. {EP 269.3}

Aaron and Miriam, just like you, felt that God had given them a responsibility, and they found fault with Moses for not following their understanding of the divine instructions given. You read the results in Scripture. There is a grave responsibility.

[Gregory]

If you feel my point is invalid, Gregory, then tell us in what manner you believe that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul.

[Shaking my head.]  I am at a complete loss to respond to the above.  Either I have misunderstood you or you have misunderstood me.  As a result, I am at a loss to respond.  I did not comment in any manner as to whether or not Phoebe ruled over Paul.

[Bob Pickle]

If you feel my point is invalid, Gregory, then tell us in what manner you believe that Phoebe was a ruler over Paul.

[Shaking my head.]  I am at a complete loss to respond to the above.  Either I have misunderstood you or you have misunderstood me.  As a result, I am at a loss to respond.  I did not comment in any manner as to whether or not Phoebe ruled over Paul.

Then I would say that you misunderstood my point. Johann cited an article which makes claims about Phoebe in Rom. 16:2:

A female elder in the New Testament?

http://www.sbl-site.org/publications/article.aspx?articleId=830

Look at that article from "Phoebe: A Prostatis" onward. It makes the case that the Greek word for "helper" or "succourer" really means "ruler" or "leader."

My point is that in the text in question, Rom. 16:2, Paul flat out states that Phoebe has been a helper or succourer of many, including of himself. Therefore, if the Greek word really means "ruler" or "leader" instead of "helper" or "succourer," then Paul must have been acknowledging that Phoebe was his ruler or leader. But the article doesn't address this problematic conclusion, a conclusion which seems to me to exclude the proposed interpretation from consideration.

Your response above said that my point was invalid, and thus I replied in the way that I did.

[Bob Pickle]

Following your argument, Bob, then the president of the North American Division and the Adventist Biblical Institute should be your rulers, and it is your duty to follow their understanding and definition of the mandates given them by the general assembly.

Don't you mean, following the argument of the article you cited? I'm not the one arguing that "helper" really means "ruler" or "leader." The article you cited did that, not me.

Since when was that responsibility handed over to you? Don´t you carry any responsibility in how you deal with your leaders as defined here:

The Bible teaches us to beware of lightly bringing accusation against those whom God has called to act as His ambassadors. “Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.” 1 Timothy 5:19. He who has placed upon men the responsibility of leaders and teachers of His people will hold the people accountable for the manner in which they treat His servants. The judgment visited upon Miriam should be a rebuke to all who yield to jealousy and murmur against those upon whom God lays the burden of His work. {EP 269.3}

Aaron and Miriam, just like you, felt that God had given them a responsibility, and they found fault with Moses for not following their understanding of the divine instructions given. You read the results in Scripture. There is a grave responsibility.

From what has been quoted here, Dan Jackson publicly stated that he wasn't going to do his job. What accusation are you speaking of? Are you saying that I accused him of saying what he publicly said?

What accusation are you saying that I said against someone at BRI? I don't recall making any accusations.

[Johann]

Yesterday it was a great blessing to me as well as to others in church to listen to an American preacher speaking in English. His sermon led me into new vistas in understanding the Great Controversy theme, and how our present dialog fits into this  Great Controversy.

It seems clear that this all began with the entrance of sin into our universe. And therefore I'd like to ask you to explain how it all began. What argument did Lucifer use to persuade at least one third of the angels who had never departed from God - to follow Lucifer and become his demons?

Another question is: What did the same devil promise Eve in the Garden?

What happened then to both Eve and Adam?

[Bob Pickle]

What argument did Lucifer use to persuade at least one third of the angels who had never departed from God - to follow Lucifer and become his demons?

One thing he did was take the "plainest statements of Jehovah," and shroud them in mystery, casting doubt upon them (PP 41; GC 496).

Over at AToday a blogger was arguing for creation over long ages, and to back that up against Ellen White's counsel he gave several examples of the "fallibility" of the Bible writers. One of those examples was that Paul was wrong in saying that Adam being created first placed man in leadership roles instead of women, since monkeys were made before Adam was.

The reasoning is fallacious, but it illustrates how such simple and plain pronouncements as are found in Gen. 3 and 1 Tim. 2:13 are today being cast in doubt and shrouded in mystery, just like what happened in heaven when the great controversy began.

[SDAminister]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

[Gregory]

SDA Minister:

The status of the SDA Church in China is complex.  In many ways, the government in China is not centralized and local officials set the operational rules with some indenpendence.  From this standpoint, the status of the SDA Church in China varries from place to place and just about any statement made about the SDA Church in CHina is true in some places annd not true in other palces.  However:
1) In some places the SDA Church is part of the Three-self Movement.
2) In some locations, the SDA Church has been allowed to operate independently of the Three-self movement.  In some of these independent locations the SDA church is doing very well and with large memberships.
3)  Some SDA leaders are Communist party members and some are not.
4) The Communist Party does not Ordain anyone.  The Communist Part is not a religious organization.
5) SDA leaders are chosen independently of government ilnfluence.  What the government does not allow is for the SDA leaders in the United States to dictate who can and cannot be chosen to be SDA leaders.  In part the government is letting the SDA Chruch in China operate with some freedom due to the fact that the leadership in the U.S. does not control the SDA Church in China.
6) Yes, the SDA Church in China does not operate with the freedoms that the SDA Church has in the U. S.  But, we can be thankful for the freedoms that it has.
6) yeS, there are at least two (2) seperate SDA organizations (Some would say 3 or 4.) in China which has differing levels of freedom to opearate.  China is the only place in the world whre there are more than one SDA group that is recognized by the General Conference.

If you knew your history, you would know that during the Cold War, the Communist governments in at least one country of the Soviet Union exercised great control over the SDA Chrucn in that country, even more than what is the case in China.  There were real problems in that country in the Soviet Union. We should be thankful for the freedomss that the SDA Chruch does have in China, even if we might wish for more.  God is leading in China.

[Johann]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.

I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.

[Johann]

SDA Minister:
- - -
If you knew your history, you would know that during the Cold War, the Communist governments in at least one country of the Soviet Union exercised great control over the SDA Chrucn in that country, even more than what is the case in China.  There were real problems in that country in the Soviet Union. We should be thankful for the freedomss that the SDA Chruch does have in China, even if we might wish for more.  God is leading in China.

Another General Conference Session I had the privilege of attending was in Vienna, Austria, 1975. This was the first session ever held outside of the United States, and at that time Austria was a neutral country making it possible for delegates from the communist countries to get permission from their own governments to attend.

My wife served as a hostess and interpreter at the entrance because she could speak the languages of several delegates, and I happened to be with her when a senior female delegate from Russia arrived. She told me how difficult the situation was because she had to get the permission of her government to travel, and some of the "faithful" church members therefore accused her of unfaithfulness because they basically believed that it was a sin to have anything to do with the atheistic government.

With tears in her eyes she told us that it was her earnest desire to meet fellow believers in the Great Advent Hope from other parts of the world which made her write an application for a travel permit, even if it displeased some of her fellow believers in Russia.

I have also preached in Poland while it was still under communism. There I met fellow believers both from Ukraine and Czechoslovakia who had traveled under difficult circumstances to meet us. It was interesting to discover the faithfulness of Adventists who lived under communism in those days, but it has often to been strange to hear the verdicts of "specialists" who were never there, and yet give explicit verdicts of how people should have dealt with the situation.

[SDAminister]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.

I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.

Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?

[Johann]

American Administrators Visit Ordained Female Pastors in China

See

http://www.atoday.org/article/1214/news/june-headlines/american-denominational-administrators-visit-women-serving-as-ordained-ministers-in-the-adventist-church-in-china

Johann,
Are you okay with the Communist Party, which controls the government and which controls the Three Self Patriotic Movement and its sister organization the China Christian Council, being the ones ordaining both male and female SDA pastors in
our church?

You are welcome to take that discussion up with those people who visited China and wrote this report. I did not write any of this. It was a news item from another source.

I was not there. But I was at the General Conference Session at Utrecht, and that is another unpleasant story.

Johann,
I understand. But just for that sake of discussion, would you be okay with some other person or organization, which is not SDA, ordaining ministers within the SDA church?

I was not there, but did you read the whole report? I understood that the church officer from America who wrote the report had spoken to female ordained Adventist pastor(s) who had refused the ordination from another church, but only accepted an ordination by an Adventist leader. I read several reports from that visit. Perhaps that was in another report?