Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Murcielago on July 06, 2011, 11:56:04 AM
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An interesting line of conversation has developed elsewhere, in which it is alleged that Bob Pickle is a Jesuit. The following is a quote from a gentleman who uses the moniker "Nikolas"
Sources have told us that it is now believed that Bob Pickle is indeed a jesuit that has infiltrated the SDA church. If so, this would explain why he hates 3ABN and Danny so much that he would devote his whole life trying to discredit them.
Does anyone else have any info on Bob's alleged secret jesuit training. It would appear that the Jesuits have assigned him to gather as many unsuspecting non committed SDA's and/or non SDA's as possible to join the plot.
Gailon Joy would seem to either have sold out to the "Catholic Church" or is being used as a nitwit, or unwittingly used by Bob, depending how one wants to describe their relationship.
It seems nearly all of the opponents of 3ABN and Danny are not real SDA's. Of the few on the smut site, it seems they are either admitted Gay and Lesbian, Non SDA's, or disgruntled or former SDA's who have an axe to grind with the SDA church.
One would surmise if the above information is as credible as it appears, that Bob P. could now find himself in a "PICKLE" as the expose' has begun!
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Bob, you got some splainin to do. It has been made amply clear that no accusations or allegations are allowed to be made on that site sans documentation and evidence to back it up. This means that Nikolas has the documentation and evidence that you are indeed a Jesuit. I'm sorry to hear this, as I will now be obligated to report you to your order. You have broken your vow of chastity, Bob. You have married and had children. Shame on you! Go make confession and take your penance. Bad Bob!
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Nestor replies:
Well, I never expected to see in print the claim that Bob Pickle is an undercover Jesuit.
Does anyone believe that the Jesuit Order considers sthe Seventh-day Adventist Chruch to be important enough that they would need to place undercover agents within its ranks?
The suggestion that Bob PIckle might be an undercover Jesuit agent gives him power and importance that I had never attributed to him.
Well in any case and whatever the truth and to one and all, true Seventh-day Adventists, undercover Jesuit agents and everyone else: God has created this day. May you live in the light of the glory of the Son of God, our Saviour Jesus Christ and in a relationshlip that results in your growth in knowledge and grace as revealed by the Son of God and the written word of God, the Bible.
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And Lilly counters:
Really? You say the SDA church "isn't important enough" ?? Then you need to wake up. This has everything to do with the great controversy and everything to do with "importance." Who do you think controls the Jesuits? Satan hates the truth of the Bible and hates the SDA Church and anyone who loves his arch-enemy--Jesus Christ. He goes about as a roaring lion seeking to devour the saints.
Plus I doubt Nikolas would say this without evidence. He is pretty good with having credible documentation. It sounds like there is an ongoing investigation going on right now.
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This is RICH!
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An interesting line of conversation has developed elsewhere, in which it is alleged that Bob Pickle is a Jesuit. The following is a quote from a gentleman who uses the moniker "Nikolas"
Sources have told us that it is now believed that Bob Pickle is indeed a jesuit that has infiltrated the SDA church. If so, this would explain why he hates 3ABN and Danny so much that he would devote his whole life trying to discredit them.
Does anyone else have any info on Bob's alleged secret jesuit training. It would appear that the Jesuits have assigned him to gather as many unsuspecting non committed SDA's and/or non SDA's as possible to join the plot.
Gailon Joy would seem to either have sold out to the "Catholic Church" or is being used as a nitwit, or unwittingly used by Bob, depending how one wants to describe their relationship.
It seems nearly all of the opponents of 3ABN and Danny are not real SDA's. Of the few on the smut site, it seems they are either admitted Gay and Lesbian, Non SDA's, or disgruntled or former SDA's who have an axe to grind with the SDA church.
One would surmise if the above information is as credible as it appears, that Bob P. could now find himself in a "PICKLE" as the expose' has begun!
Whoa, there, Nikolas, I am a strong Seventh-day Adventist. I am got gay or lesbian, and I don't like what Danny and his supporters are doing to cover up sin. I agree that 3ABN has been used to bring souls to Christ, but God will take down the mighty when the time is right. From what I read on Adventtalk, I would not hesitate to say that most contributors are born again Christian SDA's. Somebody better get their facts straight before they spout off.
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They must be really desperate.
Do they not recall that their bogus doctor impersonation charge came from their discovery of comments by upset Catholic apologists who kept deleting my corrections to a Wikipedia article about papal tiaras, which article wrongly bashed the Adventist position on 666?
So what will these desperate people cook up next? That "sources have told us" that I'm Michelle Obama's first husband?
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Well Well I see "Nikolas" cough cough the adulterer Brad Walker cough cough is posting again! Bradley Wilson Walker do you really need to be investigating other folks? Finally take your eyes off other women long enough to do so? Your already in trouble my friend so go put your head back where the sun don't shine...and save yourself more heartache!
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Bob aside, what is this fear and paranoia regarding Jesuits? They are an order that runs colleges and universities. I frequent the library at Loyola, a Jesuit university, and find them to be an excellent source of information and direction in almost any line of research.
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How is it helpful to their cause for 3ABN staff and friends to accuse Bob Pickle of being a Jesuit? (That's one of the funniest things I've ever heard!)
Doing an investigation?
You're right, Bob, they must have become very, very desperate.
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Not to mention, possibly a little mentally deranged...
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Artist Nikolas is Brad Walker, and if he tries to deny it- I will have no issue providing proof.
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Artist Nikolas is Brad Walker, and if he tries to deny it- I will have no issue providing proof.
Is he?
That's interesting.
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It is finally becoming clear to me, Bob is a Jesuit and I understand why everything is happening as it is. I will no longer post here because of what I have learn. It is Bob's fault that Danny divorced his wife, mind control was used on him by Pickle. And Jesuit mind control was used on his brother by Pickle that caused Tommy to do what he did to children. Actually, we are all under a spell by Pickle who is actually a fairy. Yep, this site only exist as long as I type on it but when I stop typing on it, it no longer exist. Actually, I admit I am a Jesuit but the only reason I say that is because Pickle has made me say it through mind control. The jesuits hate Danny for spreading the truth and so they hired Pickle the jesuit to stop him. Did I tell you the Boogy Man is in my closet, but he is really a jesuit? Your faithful Jesuit signing out.
They must be really desperate.
Do they not recall that their bogus doctor impersonation charge came from their discovery of comments by upset Catholic apologists who kept deleting my corrections to a Wikipedia article about papal tiaras, which article wrongly bashed the Adventist position on 666?
So what will these desperate people cook up next? That "sources have told us" that I'm Michelle Obama's first husband?
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Bob Pickle -- Very Important Person!
(to be responsible for so much and to be on the receiving end of all this 3ABN attention)
All he did was to defend himself in a lawsuit.
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They must be really desperate.
Do they not recall that their bogus doctor impersonation charge came from their discovery of comments by upset Catholic apologists who kept deleting my corrections to a Wikipedia article about papal tiaras, which article wrongly bashed the Adventist position on 666?
So what will these desperate people cook up next? That "sources have told us" that I'm Michelle Obama's first husband?
And you had the audacity to infiltrate classes at Weimar? What do I need to unlearn now? :help:
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They must be really desperate.
I wonder if the reason the 3ABN defenders are suddenly exhibiting such desperation and paranoia that they would bring up the current charge against Bob is because they are worried about their relationship and imminent meeting with Ted Wilson on 3ABN Live.
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So What?!!! They have got to be kidding......Christined: I love it! LOL!!!
I am asking also, I never did get that thing with the Jesuits and the SDA infiltration. I don't see the point.
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Bob aside, what is this fear and paranoia regarding Jesuits? They are an order that runs colleges and universities. I frequent the library at Loyola, a Jesuit university, and find them to be an excellent source of information and direction in almost any line of research.
They are the source of both the preterist and futurist views prophecy. We are most familiar with the futurist view due to its being popularized by the evangelicals. It is more commonly known as the Secret Rapture. The Jesuit Order was formed primarily to counteract the Protestant Reformation and their assertion that the Roman Catholic Church was the little horn of Daniel 7 and the sea beast of Revelation 13.
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Well, here's what I was able to source on that Pickle guy. No doubt about it, he's a Jesuit.
http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html
He's probably a communist as well....
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Artist Nikolas is Brad Walker, and if he tries to deny it- I will have no issue providing proof.
And I have no issue with proof that you are Alex, not Adam and have been posting under Adam's name for quite some time. I know this because your sister said you and Adam broke up and your new love's name is zach.
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They must be really desperate.
Do they not recall that their bogus doctor impersonation charge came from their discovery of comments by upset Catholic apologists who kept deleting my corrections to a Wikipedia article about papal tiaras, which article wrongly bashed the Adventist position on 666?
So what will these desperate people cook up next? That "sources have told us" that I'm Michelle Obama's first husband?
Bob you're always good for a laugh...you don't get the irony of the "sources have told us" line and how it was stolen from you?
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Awww. Bringing up the gay issue, huh? You have some nerve "Sammy" when you're the coward who hides your identity. It's so cute! Now how is that for gay? Oh, and by the way if I was to date a man....at least they would be of age unlike your hero...pedo boy...who likes em' young...and I mean really young....So get a clue Loser.
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And again I must ask is this the same pot smoking sister...who ran to mommy to tell her Alex smoked the whacky weed on occasion? The same Tina Walker who stole money from her parents to support her drug addiction? The same Tina Walker who had a child out of wedlock with a married man? you failed to answer last time....so try again, Sammy.
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Wow! And the manure hits the fan...!
I feel badly for Tina. She has obviously had some terribly rough times. I am proud of her for having a child that she could easily have killed in an abortion. Everyone has skeletons in the closet, and flinging them around does no one any good. It hurt the person who flings it as much as it hurts the person inteded to be hurt.
Whether or not Alex prefers men In no way damages the credibility of his allegations regarding what happened to him as a child. In fact, it adds to the tragedy of the results. Making fun of an abused person for bearing the scars of their abuse makes you look anything but virtueous.
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Bob Pickle... a Jesuit?
Even the Devil must have laughed when he read that.
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Bob Pickle... a Jesuit?
Even the Devil must have laughed when he read that.
:ROFL: yep!
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Bob Pickle... a Jesuit?
Even the Devil must have laughed when he read that.
Thank you, Stan. :)
Well, here's what I was able to source on that Pickle guy. No doubt about it, he's a Jesuit.
http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html
He's probably a communist as well....
Now who stole my identity at http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html (http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html)? SDAminister, do you have any info on that?
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http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html
That's funny.
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And again I must ask is this the same pot smoking sister...who ran to mommy to tell her Alex smoked the whacky weed on occasion? The same Tina Walker who stole money from her parents to support her drug addiction? The same Tina Walker who had a child out of wedlock with a married man? you failed to answer last time....so try again, Sammy.
I don't know Alex, you tell me...is it the same sister that you recently went to for money since your mother turned you down. I believe she took out a loan for you and you trash her this way? Is this the one that you have had lie for you so you could miss work...the one that went along with your lie that your dad had passed away....the one that you called to say you were at her house in the shower with Zach?
Give it up Alex. Something is terribly wrong when your own mother and father have testified on video that your accusations are all lies and you are doing this for money and attention. Now you are trashing your own brother and sister because you know they won't support your lies...neither will the rest of the family. It won't take your new attorney's long to find all the holes in your many stories as well as your trail of tangled lies. Then, they will drop you the same way the other's did. Attorney's want consistent, believable clients... not someone like you who seems to be incapable of telling the truth.
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Speaking of Jesuits, I posted on of the biggest scams of Christianity, Alberto Rivera.
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459214.html
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And again I must ask is this the same pot smoking sister...who ran to mommy to tell her Alex smoked the whacky weed on occasion? The same Tina Walker who stole money from her parents to support her drug addiction? The same Tina Walker who had a child out of wedlock with a married man? you failed to answer last time....so try again, Sammy.
I don't know Alex, you tell me...is it the same sister that you recently went to for money since your mother turned you down. I believe she took out a loan for you and you trash her this way? Is this the one that you have had lie for you so you could miss work...the one that went along with your lie that your dad had passed away....the one that you called to say you were at her house in the shower with Zach?
Give it up Alex. Something is terribly wrong when your own mother and father have testified on video that your accusations are all lies and you are doing this for money and attention. Now you are trashing your own brother and sister because you know they won't support your lies...neither will the rest of the family. It won't take your new attorney's long to find all the holes in your many stories as well as your trail of tangled lies. Then, they will drop you the same way the other's did. Attorney's want consistent, believable clients... not someone like you who seems to be incapable of telling the truth.
Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?
If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?
Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?
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Sam you have got some nerve. First, none of which you say can be proven, but I on the other hand can prove you're a liar. You keep up bringing up the gay issue like it's a bad thing? Yet, you fail to realize you defend an admitted pedophile who is what? GAY! Now your nonsense and half truths is getting old, so I will not respond to you anymore. One other thing John Manly withdrawing from my case had nothing to do with whether he believed me or not so quit insinuating he did, or Ill prove your cowardly [censored] wrong.
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Speaking of Jesuits, I posted on of the biggest scams of Christianity, Alberto Rivera.
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459214.html
Interesting article. There are people of similar bent currently running around in the SDA circles.
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BTW, Sammy, who made you spokesperson for my family? You say the rest of my family don't support me either....LOL! Umm Yeah some of them do..Do I need to post messages and emails on here to prove you wrong? You need to get better source of info. I suppose you have seen the letter my 'supposed boyfriend' Zach sent my family, huh? Why don't you post it, Sam.
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One last thing...even I was dating a person by the name of Zach...what business of that is yours? I have never denied nor will I now that I have had issues in this area. Again, even if true that is between no one but me and them....not you Sam. Oh, and I guess Deidra told you I was dating a minor like she posted on FB...Lol! Even if I am dating Zach...I assure you he is 18 soon to be 19. So, be careful what you listen to Sam, because it may get you in trouble just like her. You notice my attitude has changed? It's because the gloves are off.
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In any case, none of this takes away from the wildly obvious Jesuitness of Bob.
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In any case, none of this takes away from the wildly obvious Jesuitness of Bob.
Anyone have a picture of Bob the Jesuit?
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I have been exposed twice as being a jesuit by different people... the last time I began emailing the person, under a different name, and began giving him secret information on me. Things like Jesuits when they go underground, they have to use the initials SJ (society of Jesus) my name is Stan Jensen, and I feed so much of this, I almost convinced myself I was one.
I miss those days...
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In my neck of the woods, this entire post is fightin' words! LOL!!! Really, Sam?
And I have no issue with proof that you are Alex, not Adam and have been posting under Adam's name for quite some time. I know this because your sister said you and Adam broke up and your new love's name is zach.
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OK, Murcielago! I was just about to post that they play the dozens better than anybody I know......I was just waiting for, "Yo' Momma is............" LOL!!
Ok so I could not agree more with the rest of your post. This really shows how some can be supportive of TS. They really don't understand the nature of this type(or any other) abuse.Wow! And the manure hits the fan...!
I feel badly for Tina. She has obviously had some terribly rough times. I am proud of her for having a child that she could easily have killed in an abortion. Everyone has skeletons in the closet, and flinging them around does no one any good. It hurt the person who flings it as much as it hurts the person inteded to be hurt.
Whether or not Alex prefers men In no way damages the credibility of his allegations regarding what happened to him as a child. In fact, it adds to the tragedy of the results. Making fun of an abused person for bearing the scars of their abuse makes you look anything but virtueous.
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I just thought this statment might deserve a little more emphasis. I didn't want to say anything, but for the longest time now, I wondered why they would bring that up when TS molested boys and not girls, which makes him at the very least bi sexual., and becaus they were kids, makes him just nasty as.....errrra....jes nasty.
Sam you have got some nerve. First, none of which you say can be proven, but I on the other hand can prove you're a liar. You keep up bringing up the gay issue like it's a bad thing? Yet, you fail to realize you defend an admitted pedophile who is what? GAY! Now your nonsense and half truths is getting old, so I will not respond to you anymore. One other thing John Manly withdrawing from my case had nothing to do with whether he believed me or not so quit insinuating he did, or Ill prove your cowardly [censored] wrong.
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You all do this all over FB, too? You know depending on who responds that friends of friends of friends see that stuff, right?
One last thing...even I was dating a person by the name of Zach...what business of that is yours? I have never denied nor will I now that I have had issues in this area. Again, even if true that is between no one but me and them....not you Sam. Oh, and I guess Deidra told you I was dating a minor like she posted on FB...Lol! Even if I am dating Zach...I assure you he is 18 soon to be 19. So, be careful what you listen to Sam, because it may get you in trouble just like her. You notice my attitude has changed? It's because the gloves are off.
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And again I must ask is this the same pot smoking sister...who ran to mommy to tell her Alex smoked the whacky weed on occasion? The same Tina Walker who stole money from her parents to support her drug addiction? The same Tina Walker who had a child out of wedlock with a married man? you failed to answer last time....so try again, Sammy.
I don't know Alex, you tell me...is it the same sister that you recently went to for money since your mother turned you down. I believe she took out a loan for you and you trash her this way? Is this the one that you have had lie for you so you could miss work...the one that went along with your lie that your dad had passed away....the one that you called to say you were at her house in the shower with Zach?
Give it up Alex. Something is terribly wrong when your own mother and father have testified on video that your accusations are all lies and you are doing this for money and attention. Now you are trashing your own brother and sister because you know they won't support your lies...neither will the rest of the family. It won't take your new attorney's long to find all the holes in your many stories as well as your trail of tangled lies. Then, they will drop you the same way the other's did. Attorney's want consistent, believable clients... not someone like you who seems to be incapable of telling the truth.
1st, Went to her for money? Ha, that broke witch was begging Alex for settlment money the whole time we were there, and when Alex said no, she went and took out 6 loans worth about 4 thousand dollars total. After getting first of said loans, she got a tattoo, baught new clothes, food, alcohol, and in the end still asked for gas money cause she blew all her money. The next day, she wanted more money and set out for more loans. We left that day and have no knowledge of were the other money went to, so to say that the loan money was Alex is bull. 2nd Alex had her call into work to let them know he was staying in the West Frankfort area to see his sick parents. 3rd we weren't showering together, and if we were that is nothing a brother would call a sister to tell her so sounds like someone needs to get their facts straight.
Zach
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And before you call Zach a liar..Sammy..just remember I have FB meesages to prove this. Just sayin'.
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MODERATOR HAT ON
We have been experiencing some inappropriate exchanges on the forum. Several of you will undergo a cooling off period.
MODERATOR HAT OFF
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Speaking of Jesuits, I posted on of the biggest scams of Christianity, Alberto Rivera.
http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/459214.html
Stan, I'm not saying Rivera was legit, but I did read the 1981 article referred to. The only thing I remember about it was that part of the proof that Rivera wasn't ever a Jesuit or Catholic priest was that some Catholic organization that would have been involved if he had been said that he wasn't.
I didn't find that convincing.
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Actually, Rivera inadvertently exposed a real honest to goodness "Jesuit" graduated from Loyola in the Dominican that was working within the "independent" ministries of the 90's. Not only admitted it but got on a jet plane and went back from whence he came.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Got any further info on that?
Actually, Rivera inadvertently exposed a real honest to goodness "Jesuit" graduated from Loyola in the Dominican that was working within the "independent" ministries of the 90's. Not only admitted it but got on a jet plane and went back from whence he came.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?
If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?
Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?
[/quote]
I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler. In fact...why haven't you called his parents? You have made hundreds of calls to try and dig up dirt on 3abn and Tommy but haven't talked to anyone in Alex's family that might dispute his stories. That seems a little one sided to me Bob. Doesn't back up your continual claims that you just want truth. I believe I challenged you before to talk to Alex's parents but it never happened...why Bob? I'll answer that. You only want "truth" if it is something against 3abn or those that work there. If your "inquiries" discover anything good, that never sees the light of day.
Maybe you should stick to worrying about your own home and problems. After all, your wife has made claims of abusive behaviour by you to different people she has talked to. I have heard she also says she can't deal with your "obsession" with 3abn. Good for her because, Bob, it is a sickness where you are concerned. Please try and seek help.
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Sam you have got some nerve. First, none of which you say can be proven, but I on the other hand can prove you're a liar. You keep up bringing up the gay issue like it's a bad thing? Yet, you fail to realize you defend an admitted pedophile who is what? GAY! Now your nonsense and half truths is getting old, so I will not respond to you anymore. One other thing John Manly withdrawing from my case had nothing to do with whether he believed me or not so quit insinuating he did, or Ill prove your cowardly [censored] wrong.
Finally, you quit using Adam's name. Good job!
What I say can be proven if your sister ends up testifying to it. Your parents already have.
Is being gay not a bad thing? You say you were a minister. Were you a gay minister? Is that why they let you go?
You are right about one thing. John M didn't let you go because he didn't personally believe you...he did until he started investigating your claims so he could defend you in court. That's when it all hit the fan and he discovered one lie after another. No attorney wants to be made a fool of in court and since he found out you were not credible he wasn't about to take your case.
Question...will you pursue this even if Tommy dies? The medical reports presented to the court recently say that he had a huge stroke with permanent damage. Oh wait, of course you would still pursue as it is all about getting money that doesn't belong to you. After all didn't you threaten to sue your own dad at one time and then threaten to sue an employer that you thought discriminated against gays? Neither of those threats came to fruition so you had to try another route. In these poor economic times a guy has to find some way to make a living! :dunno:
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As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler.
Are you saying he was gay when he was a toddler?
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As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler.
Are you saying he was gay when he was a toddler?
Quite a question :oops:
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What a pathetic string of conversation. The issue at hand is not Alex's sexual orientation. Is it not the sexual molestation charges placed against TS? SAM, you can beat Alex down until you take you last breath. It will never change what happened -- at the hands of TS.
While pastoring at DL, TS made sexual advances against at least TWO grown men. I think that made him a gay minister.
We shall wait until we see the acutal PROOF that TS has had a HUGE stroke. Here in Virginia -- we want this finished so we can all move on.
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I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
What was the name of this allegedly biblically illiterate lawyer that would dare say that an earthly judge rejecting a plea deal makes Tommy's admission a moot point with the Judge of all the earth?
If you think I'm reading into the lawyer's alleged statement what he never said, take note that in many of our discussions here we view things from the eternal perspective, which brings in God. In that context, any lawyer (or Sam quoting a lawyer) who claims that an admission is as if it never happened when an earthly judge rejects a plea deal is in reality saying that God Himself will overlook an admission of guilt simply because of the decision of an earthly judge.
How far do you want to push such a heresy? If God is bound by an earthly judge's rejection of a plea deal, is He also bound by an earthly judge's condemnation of an innocent martyr?
In fact...why haven't you called his parents?
And how would you know that I haven't?
Regardless, Tommy still admitted to molesting Alex. Now if Tommy has publicly stated that he molested Alex, why would anyone need to inquire further?
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What I say can be proven if your sister ends up testifying to it.
What are you saying here? That anything testified to under oath is automatically proven? So what if Alex testifies that Tommy abused him? Is that then automatically proven?
If testimony automatically proves something, why did 3ABN lose its property tax case after Danny gave so much testimony?
Your parents already have.
Really? When? Was it in open court? At a deposition? Some sort of ex parte proceeding? Do you have a transcript from a court reporter that you can post?
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Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?
If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?
Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?
I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
(snip)
Sam says: "...a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept"
Let's refresh our memories on why the judge rejected guilty plea agreement.
Fairfax judge rejects plea deal for man who admitted molesting 2 boys
Washington Post Staff Writer, By Tom Jackman; Monday, November 15, 2010
A Fairfax County judge rejected a plea agreement Monday for a former Fairfax church pastor who admitted molesting two boys in the 1990s because the agreement would not have not put the pastor behind bars.
Tommy R. Shelton Jr., 65, pleaded guilty in July to two felony counts of taking indecent
liberties with a child under his supervision.
(snip)
Shelton's attorneys and Fairfax prosecutors agreed to a deal: If Shelton pleaded guilty, he would be placed on probation with no jail or prison time. When the deal was presented to Fairfax Circuit Court Judge Randy I. Bellows, he told both sides, "I may ultimately reject
this agreement."
Then, after reading a sentencing memo Monday from Shelton's attorneys, the judge - a former federal prosecutor in Alexandria - said: "There's no expression of remorse. This submission doesn't even acknowledge that he committed the offense. . . . I've got a plea to two very serious charges that involves no jail time. And on top of it, I've got a defendant that's expressing no remorse, and I've got victims that are willing to participate in the litigation. [Both victims were in court, and one testified Monday.] I'm trying to understand why I would accept this agreement."
(snip)
(bolding of text added)
Judge Bellows rejected the plea agreement because the punishment did not fit the crimes that TS admitted to committing. There was no jail time and TS did not express ANY remorse.
Judge Bellows saw right through TS's selfish veil. TS had multiple chances to express true remorse, but according to the judge he did not. The judge read the sentencing memo submitted by the defense and expected remorse to be expressed, but only read about how hard this experience has been on TS. The judge had the opportunity to watch TS that day in court and previous dates. According to the WP article, the judge had the opportunity to watch TS during one of the victim's testimony that day and watch and listen to TS make a statement about how remorseful he was. Even with all of the opportunities, Judge Bellows saw NO REMORSE.
Sam says: "So now is a moot point as if it never happened..."
Moot point, huh? Moot point in an earthly court or a moot point according to God?
The judge rejecting the plea agreement did not cause the guilty plea to be withdrawn. This is left up to the defendant. After a judge rejects a plea agreement, a defendant has the choice to move forward and let the judge sentence him or her at that time. Or withdraw the guilty plea and and let a jury decide.
Withdrawing a guilty plea does not mean that the defendant is saying that he or she is not guilty. This only means that the guilty plea cannot be used by the prosecution and considered by the jury in the following trial.
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Yes, Murcielago,
He is back now and in your back yard!!! But being watched very carefully!!! He is much more comfortable in the Southern California Conference!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Got any further info on that?
Actually, Rivera inadvertently exposed a real honest to goodness "Jesuit" graduated from Loyola in the Dominican that was working within the "independent" ministries of the 90's. Not only admitted it but got on a jet plane and went back from whence he came.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Two postings made on two different Advent blog sites – posted same day:
“Truth”, posted July 11, 2011
“Well, what about what DARVO just posted over on AT? That Tommy supposedly made some kind of gay advances towards two men while a Pastor at Dunn Loring. Really? What kind of snotty dirty comment is that without any proof that this is true? It is SMEARING the character of Tommy Shelton, something Pickle and the rest have felt so free to do in the past several years. This is only one small example of the filth and lewdness that has come out of AdventTalk forum.
And DARVO says he was a Pastor at Dunn Loring? He is a great example of how Pastors should gossip and tell things about people on public forums to try to blacken their reputations? No wonder Americans are sick to death of Christianity in this country when their leaders talk and act this way.”
DARVO, posted, July 111, 2011
“What a pathetic string of conversation. The issue at hand is not Alex's sexual orientation. Is it not the sexual molestation charges placed against TS? SAM, you can beat Alex down until you take you last breath. It will never change what happened -- at the hands of TS.
While pastoring at DL, TS made sexual advances against at least TWO grown men. I think that made him a gay minister.
We shall wait until we see the acutal PROOF that TS has had a HUGE stroke. Here in Virginia -- we want this finished so we can all move on.”
Dear Truth,
I suspect you read into my posting what you wanted to see. I will change the sentence structure so you can understand what was actually said.
“While Tommy Shelton was the Pastor at DL, he made sexual advances against at least TWO grown (adult) men.”
The second sentence in that paragraph was a comment made in relation to the comments posted about Alex being a "gay" minister.
For your information, two men came forward and reported the advances made toward them by TS. One put it in writing and allowed his name to be made public. One has asked to remain anonymous.
I am not a Pastor nor am I a "He". I am a member of DL, have been for 18+ years.
I’ll leave it up to you to make the correction ****************. You owe it to all that read your misleading comments to my posting.
DARVO
**************
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
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It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.
I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.
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Two postings made on two different Advent blog sites – posted same day:
“Truth”, posted July 11, 2011
“Well, what about what DARVO just posted over on AT? That Tommy supposedly made some kind of gay advances towards two men while a Pastor at Dunn Loring. Really? What kind of snotty dirty comment is that without any proof that this is true? It is SMEARING the character of Tommy Shelton, something Pickle and the rest have felt so free to do in the past several years. This is only one small example of the filth and lewdness that has come out of AdventTalk forum.
And DARVO says he was a Pastor at Dunn Loring? He is a great example of how Pastors should gossip and tell things about people on public forums to try to blacken their reputations? No wonder Americans are sick to death of Christianity in this country when their leaders talk and act this way.”
DARVO, posted, July 111, 2011
“What a pathetic string of conversation. The issue at hand is not Alex's sexual orientation. Is it not the sexual molestation charges placed against TS? SAM, you can beat Alex down until you take you last breath. It will never change what happened -- at the hands of TS.
While pastoring at DL, TS made sexual advances against at least TWO grown men. I think that made him a gay minister.
We shall wait until we see the acutal PROOF that TS has had a HUGE stroke. Here in Virginia -- we want this finished so we can all move on.”
Dear Truth,
I suspect you read into my posting what you wanted to see. I will change the sentence structure so you can understand what was actually said.
“While Tommy Shelton was the Pastor at DL, he made sexual advances against at least TWO grown (adult) men.”
The second sentence in that paragraph was a comment made in relation to the comments posted about Alex being a "gay" minister.
For your information, two men came forward and reported the advances made toward them by TS. One put it in writing and allowed his name to be made public. One has asked to remain anonymous.
I am not a Pastor nor am I a "He". I am a member of DL, have been for 18+ years.
I’ll leave it up to you to make the correction ****************. You owe it to all that read your misleading comments to my posting.
DARVO
**************
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
Hi DARVO,
Just wanted to say that I agree with you and I am sorry you have had to experience the ugliness of the other site.
I am glad you have joined AdventTalk and I appreciate the perspective you bring to us. I truly hope that their venom will not prevent you from continuing to share your thoughts here. I also hope that the impression they leave with you will not be your lasting impression of the Adventist church.
Regardless of differing denominations, we all serve the same wonderful Lord, and He is still in control!! He knows the truth - the REAL truth!! And He can bring healing to those who have been so hurt. It sounds like you may know some of those people. I pray for healing for your church family.
Sincerely,
Snoopy
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DARVO,
Just in case you're wondering why your post was edited, the moderators and admin here do not allow links to and the name of that site to be posted. They don't want to advertise it any more than necessary.
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Sam you really are a sick dog. Just sayin'. Go ahead, have my sister testify....LOL! While your at it encourage Brad to do the same, but let me warn you my attorneys are itching to question him, and heck who knows you may see him named at a later date. Anyway, good job at phisihing or trying to, but it isn't going to work. All you are is a piece of subhuman garbage. Adios!
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Sam is definitely sick, but "subhuman" seems to be going a bit far.
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I disagree, Bob! Anyone who comes on here running their mouth, and is to coward to reveal themselves is subhuman. Sorry.
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I disagree, Bob! Anyone who comes on here running their mouth, and is to coward to reveal themselves is subhuman. Sorry.
ADMIN HAT ON
This is an internet forum. People are allowed to post under a screen name, just as you did when you first joined AdventTalk. Please refrain from name calling if you wish to continue posting here.
ADMIN HAT OFF
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Rather funny how long the Jesuit trail has spun, but lets beware lest we use this as a garbage dump!
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I disagree, Bob! Anyone who comes on here running their mouth, and is to coward to reveal themselves is subhuman. Sorry.
To me "subhuman" indicates that the person in question is not a member of the homo sapien species, and thus is at best a chimpanzee. But chimps can't run their mouths and post like Sam has.
But perhaps I'm ignorant of other meanings of "subhuman garbage." I see that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhuman) says that "Subhuman" is a song by a rock band called "Garbage."
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Well, here's what I was able to source on that Pickle guy. No doubt about it, he's a Jesuit.
http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html
He's probably a communist as well....
Now who stole my identity at http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html (http://minnesotamasons.blogspot.com/2011/07/pickle.html)? SDAminister, do you have any info on that?
Anyone notice that the above link is now claiming that I'm both a member of the Black Panthers and a grand wizard of the Klan? Those two groups are as different as black and white.
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I think they are hoping that we will waste time and effort proving one or more of their claims untrue. They surely don't like it when the actual facts are documented. They have run out of options and are grasping at straws hoping that something - anything will divert attention away from this.
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Sorry. I see that dmundall supposedly made the comment in the link above. If it was him I'm sure he was being sarcastic and just making a joke. In fact the whole thing looks like a joke. Potato salad? Really?
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Yes, I think dmundall was joking.
But the original post over on Cindy's site, the one that is quoted at the beginning of this thread, I think that one was intended to be taken seriously.
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Today I discovered that some of the real people who are making programs at 3ABN feel pity for Linda because of all the smut displayed against Linda over at Cindy's site. They do not think such filth stems from Christian people. I was asked to provide a link to the site so that they could see it for themselves.
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Black Panthers? Really? Bob, I assume you pun was most definitely intended. :ROFL:
Anyone notice that the above link is now claiming that I'm both a member of the Black Panthers and a grand wizard of the Klan? Those two groups are as different as black and white.
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Black Panthers? Really? Bob, I assume you pun was most definitely intended. :ROFL:
Haven't you met him there yet, princess?
Anyone notice that the above link is now claiming that I'm both a member of the Black Panthers and a grand wizard of the Klan? Those two groups are as different as black and white.
[/quote]
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Pastor Johann that is just way too funny a too many levels. Who is responsible for that site/blog/whatever?
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Very funny, Bob and SDAminister.
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Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?
If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?
Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?
I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
You're nuts. He admitted to what he did, and that is all I need to win this suit! What lawyer are you talking too?
As far as Alex being warped because of his accusations...No way ask his parents. They will tell you that was his pattern since he was a toddler. In fact...why haven't you called his parents? You have made hundreds of calls to try and dig up dirt on 3abn and Tommy but haven't talked to anyone in Alex's family that might dispute his stories. That seems a little one sided to me Bob. Doesn't back up your continual claims that you just want truth. I believe I challenged you before to talk to Alex's parents but it never happened...why Bob? I'll answer that. You only want "truth" if it is something against 3abn or those that work there. If your "inquiries" discover anything good, that never sees the light of day.
Your facts are wrong again...I do believe that Bob HAS spoken to my parents, so give it up!
Maybe you should stick to worrying about your own home and problems. After all, your wife has made claims of abusive behaviour by you to different people she has talked to. I have heard she also says she can't deal with your "obsession" with 3abn. Good for her because, Bob, it is a sickness where you are concerned. Please try and seek help.
[/quote]
Irrelevant?
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Sam you have got some nerve. First, none of which you say can be proven, but I on the other hand can prove you're a liar. You keep up bringing up the gay issue like it's a bad thing? Yet, you fail to realize you defend an admitted pedophile who is what? GAY! Now your nonsense and half truths is getting old, so I will not respond to you anymore. One other thing John Manly withdrawing from my case had nothing to do with whether he believed me or not so quit insinuating he did, or Ill prove your cowardly [censored] wrong.
Finally, you quit using Adam's name. Good job!
What I say can be proven if your sister ends up testifying to it. Your parents already have. Testified to what? It can't be proven. It can be proven that she's a liar. I think Zach proved that in his post, so keep talking.
Is being gay not a bad thing? You say you were a minister. Were you a gay minister? Is that why they let you go? No, I resigned you coward.
You are right about one thing. John M didn't let you go because he didn't personally believe you...he did until he started investigating your claims so he could defend you in court. That's when it all hit the fan and he discovered one lie after another. No attorney wants to be made a fool of in court and since he found out you were not credible he wasn't about to take your case. Loser? Your facts are wrong. Why don't you call John Manly and ask him the reason. You need help!
Question...will you pursue this even if Tommy dies? Heck yes I will. The medical reports presented to the court recently say that he had a huge stroke with permanent damage. I care why? Oh wait, of course you would still pursue as it is all about getting money that doesn't belong to you. After all didn't you threaten to sue your own dad at one time and then threaten to sue an employer that you thought discriminated against gays? Either show your proof on these allegations or shut up! Neither of those threats came to fruition so you had to try another route. In these poor economic times a guy has to find some way to make a living! :dunno:
My responces are in Blue.
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I disagree, Bob! Anyone who comes on here running their mouth, and is to coward to reveal themselves is subhuman. Sorry.
To me "subhuman" indicates that the person in question is not a member of the homo sapien species, and thus is at best a chimpanzee. But chimps can't run their mouths and post like Sam has.
But perhaps I'm ignorant of other meanings of "subhuman garbage." I see that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhuman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subhuman) says that "Subhuman" is a song by a rock band called "Garbage."
Chimps may not be able to speak, but they have brains unlike Sam. :help:
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Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?
If Alex is as disturbed as you claim, could it not be that Tommy is at least in part to blame?
Which brings up the question: Why are you defending admitted pedophile Tommy Shelton, Sam?
I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
(snip)
Sam says: "...a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept"
Let's refresh our memories on why the judge rejected guilty plea agreement.
Fairfax judge rejects plea deal for man who admitted molesting 2 boys
Washington Post Staff Writer, By Tom Jackman; Monday, November 15, 2010
A Fairfax County judge rejected a plea agreement Monday for a former Fairfax church pastor who admitted molesting two boys in the 1990s because the agreement would not have not put the pastor behind bars.
Tommy R. Shelton Jr., 65, pleaded guilty in July to two felony counts of taking indecent
liberties with a child under his supervision.
(snip)
Shelton's attorneys and Fairfax prosecutors agreed to a deal: If Shelton pleaded guilty, he would be placed on probation with no jail or prison time. When the deal was presented to Fairfax Circuit Court Judge Randy I. Bellows, he told both sides, "I may ultimately reject
this agreement."
Then, after reading a sentencing memo Monday from Shelton's attorneys, the judge - a former federal prosecutor in Alexandria - said: "There's no expression of remorse. This submission doesn't even acknowledge that he committed the offense. . . . I've got a plea to two very serious charges that involves no jail time. And on top of it, I've got a defendant that's expressing no remorse, and I've got victims that are willing to participate in the litigation. [Both victims were in court, and one testified Monday.] I'm trying to understand why I would accept this agreement."
(snip)
(bolding of text added)
Judge Bellows rejected the plea agreement because the punishment did not fit the crimes that TS admitted to committing. There was no jail time and TS did not express ANY remorse.
Judge Bellows saw right through TS's selfish veil. TS had multiple chances to express true remorse, but according to the judge he did not. The judge read the sentencing memo submitted by the defense and expected remorse to be expressed, but only read about how hard this experience has been on TS. The judge had the opportunity to watch TS that day in court and previous dates. According to the WP article, the judge had the opportunity to watch TS during one of the victim's testimony that day and watch and listen to TS make a statement about how remorseful he was. Even with all of the opportunities, Judge Bellows saw NO REMORSE.
Sam says: "So now is a moot point as if it never happened..."
Moot point, huh? Moot point in an earthly court or a moot point according to God?
The judge rejecting the plea agreement did not cause the guilty plea to be withdrawn. This is left up to the defendant. After a judge rejects a plea agreement, a defendant has the choice to move forward and let the judge sentence him or her at that time. Or withdraw the guilty plea and and let a jury decide.
Withdrawing a guilty plea does not mean that the defendant is saying that he or she is not guilty. This only means that the guilty plea cannot be used by the prosecution and considered by the jury in the following trial.
Sam, any thoughts on my post above? I thought you would have responded by now. Or maybe you do not know how to respond when someone provides facts that dispute what you have claimed. Did my response hit too close to home? Why do you think TS has not been able to show any remorse? One of the WP articles said that he told one of his victims that their past sexual activities were "the type of relationship a father and son had." Does TS still hold this view? If so, this may explain why he has not been able to show or express any remorse.
I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
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Sam, are you forgetting that Tommy admitted molesting Alex?
...
I'm not forgetting anything. Especially the part that professing guilt (whether guilty or not) was part of a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept. So now is a moot point as if it never happened...a lawyer tells me.
(snip)
Sam says: "...a plea bargain that the judge didn't accept"
Let's refresh our memories on why the judge rejected guilty plea agreement.
Fairfax judge rejects plea deal for man who admitted molesting 2 boys
Washington Post Staff Writer, By Tom Jackman; Monday, November 15, 2010
A Fairfax County judge rejected a plea agreement Monday for a former Fairfax church pastor who admitted molesting two boys in the 1990s because the agreement would not have not put the pastor behind bars.
Tommy R. Shelton Jr., 65, pleaded guilty in July to two felony counts of taking indecent
liberties with a child under his supervision.
(snip)
Shelton's attorneys and Fairfax prosecutors agreed to a deal: If Shelton pleaded guilty, he would be placed on probation with no jail or prison time. When the deal was presented to Fairfax Circuit Court Judge Randy I. Bellows, he told both sides, "I may ultimately reject
this agreement."
Then, after reading a sentencing memo Monday from Shelton's attorneys, the judge - a former federal prosecutor in Alexandria - said: "There's no expression of remorse. This submission doesn't even acknowledge that he committed the offense. . . . I've got a plea to two very serious charges that involves no jail time. And on top of it, I've got a defendant that's expressing no remorse, and I've got victims that are willing to participate in the litigation. [Both victims were in court, and one testified Monday.] I'm trying to understand why I would accept this agreement."
(snip)
(bolding of text added)
Judge Bellows rejected the plea agreement because the punishment did not fit the crimes that TS admitted to committing. There was no jail time and TS did not express ANY remorse.
Judge Bellows saw right through TS's selfish veil. TS had multiple chances to express true remorse, but according to the judge he did not. The judge read the sentencing memo submitted by the defense and expected remorse to be expressed, but only read about how hard this experience has been on TS. The judge had the opportunity to watch TS that day in court and previous dates. According to the WP article, the judge had the opportunity to watch TS during one of the victim's testimony that day and watch and listen to TS make a statement about how remorseful he was. Even with all of the opportunities, Judge Bellows saw NO REMORSE.
Sam says: "So now is a moot point as if it never happened..."
Moot point, huh? Moot point in an earthly court or a moot point according to God?
The judge rejecting the plea agreement did not cause the guilty plea to be withdrawn. This is left up to the defendant. After a judge rejects a plea agreement, a defendant has the choice to move forward and let the judge sentence him or her at that time. Or withdraw the guilty plea and and let a jury decide.
Withdrawing a guilty plea does not mean that the defendant is saying that he or she is not guilty. This only means that the guilty plea cannot be used by the prosecution and considered by the jury in the following trial.
Sam, any thoughts on my post above? I thought you would have responded by now. Or maybe you do not know how to respond when someone provides facts that dispute what you have claimed. Did my response hit too close to home? Why do you think TS has not been able to show any remorse? One of the WP articles said that he told one of his victims that their past sexual activities were "the type of relationship a father and son had." Does TS still hold this view? If so, this may explain why he has not been able to show or express any remorse.
I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
Here's my thoughts...
Most case in the U.S. end in plea bargains regardless of guilt or innocence, and this one was rejected so can not be used against Tommy Shelton, but you all believe what you want to and see only what you choose to regardless of the facts. You claim that Tommy Shelton admitted to the crimes, but showed no remorse, Alex claims "He admitted to what he did, and that is all I need to win this suit! (He's gonna need a lot more than that, his story is so inconsistant and contradictory it has more holes than swiss cheese)
And you bold texted the part from the November 2010 Washington Post article: Plea deal rejected in molestation case (http://server8.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/scczbaciweaamvs/suvw/p1/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/15/AR2010111507450.html) saying""There's no expression of remorse.
but ignored the following, the Judge went on to say:
"This submission doesn't even acknowledge that he committed the offense. . . . "
So you all claim he admitted guilt but the court said he didn't.
The same news article goes on to say:
Bellows asked Shelton whether he wanted to address the issue of accepting the plea deal. The former pastor stood.
"I am remorseful," Shelton said. "I tried to live a Christian life all my life. I obviously got off track for a while. In the last 15 years, I've done everything in my power to live the way I should. I've kept myself away from young people. . . ."
Think about it, if you can..
He still didn't acknowledge or admit he committed any offense.
He said the exact opposite.
He said "In the last 15 years, I've done everything in my power to live the way I should. I've kept myself away from young people."
That makes sense if he was innocent. He was previously and falsely accused and so he wouldn't want to give any a reason to think he was guilty of anything in the future, so he kept himself away from young people to avoid the appearance of evil. "Young people" would include Dennis Turley and Alex Walker.
The past 15 years covers his entire time as Pastor of the Dunn Loring Church of God from 1995-2000 and it includes his employment after that at 3ABN...
No, he never admitted guilt, but you are all free to continue claiming that he did, and I am sure you will.
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but ignored the following, the Judge went on to say:
"This submission doesn't even acknowledge that he committed the offense. . . . "
So you all claim he admitted guilt but the court said he didn't.
No. The court said that in the submission he didn't acknowledge that he committed the offense. But all reports still state that he pled guilty. No report that I've seen says that he instead submitted a no contest plea or Alford plea.
Think about it, if you can..
He still didn't acknowledge or admit he committed any offense.
No wonder the court rejected the plea! Here's a guy that pleads guilty, thus admitting that he molested children, and then can't even bring himself to acknowledge his crimes.
He said "In the last 15 years, I've done everything in my power to live the way I should. I've kept myself away from young people."
That makes sense if he was innocent.
No. It only makes sense if he's a bald face liar. "I've kept myself away from young people"? What about Kid's Time? What about being around his own kids? He told the judge he'd kept himself away from young people, and it wasn't even true. Loads of video from 3ABN proves it.
Being around young people accidentally might be different. But playing for Kid's Time was intentional.
And why would Tommy say he'd kept himself away from young people? Just because every last alleged victim had lied about him? What a stretch!
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this was more fun when we talk about Bob being a Jesuit.
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Well, Stan, "IF" Bob is a Jesuit, we need more Jesuits.
One thing I am certain of, we can do without ANY Stans who take no stands based upon the moral law!!!
Last I knew, you have never admitted that Danny Lee Shelton is a Biblical Adulterer. And just how many times have the TEN COMMANDMENTS BEEN REMOVED AT 3ABN?
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
this was more fun when we talk about Bob being a Jesuit.
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there remain two kinds of sinners
a-those who have been caught
b-those who have not been caught.
I really do not care if or when Danny did or did not do anything.
Get over it.
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Gailon, Stan did take a stand re: me being a Jesuit: He thought it was a big joke.
Stan, biblically speaking, should not the leaders of our major ministries and our church be held accountable for public sins and misdeeds?
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they should be accountable to their board.
AND in my opinion, that board should be made up of folks who believe it in enough to give sacrificially.
One of the problems we have in our Church, is that we have people on boards who are there by position, and just wanting to give their 'wisdom'.
This is getting off topic, I remember one board member voting against moving Pacific Press to Idaho because that board member did not want to go there for board meetings in the winter.
So often at sessions, and Church business meetings, the people who do all the talking do not financially support the organization.
Yeah this is getting more off topic sorry
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That's fine.
What if a board isn't holding the leaders of a ministry accountable for public sins and misdeeds? I think those who have contributed to and promoted that ministry, and/or whose churches, conferences, and/or ministries are directly impacted by that ministry, have a right to call for revival and reform.
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Am sure both you and I have been in situations that regarding employees that could not be disclosed. AND a governing board can't, or its in-camera personal committee. (Not sure the 3ABN board had this). There are tough call to make that they must support after they get satisfactory evidence, and they must give a payout that meets or exceeds policy or state/provincial laws.
I was surprised that the lawsuit was over a domain name trademark, and i was surprised both that they won the trademark issue, and that they paid $5,000 for it. I do understand they needed to protect their investment and the network over what they considered slanderous statements.
I doubt if all the story has been told, and that it even needs to be told.
What I do know is this, there are hurting, dying folks out there that are looking for answers on why there is suffering, pain and death, that need to have answers, and there is the great commission that needs to be fulfilled.
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I was surprised that the lawsuit was over a domain name trademark, and i was surprised both that they won the trademark issue, and that they paid $5,000 for it.
Someone actually told you that they won the trademark issue? That is a real shocker.
They never litigated the trademark issue. Rather than litigate it, they bought the two domain names from the bankruptcy estate, complained about the additional names that popped up before they bought the two, acted like they wanted to go after those as well, and then never pursued the matter.
When they asked to have the suit dismissed, they pretended that they had already accomplished their objectives as far as the domain names are concerned, even though there were 16 times as many websites as there had been when they first sued.
The suit explicitly requested that the court permanently enjoin us from using any domain name that contained the characters "3-A-B-N" in it, and then just dropped everything without ever getting that injunction.
And the fact of the matter is that they knew before they ever sued that case law was against them on the trademark issue.
I have yet to get one threatening letter over the domain name 3ABNvJoy.com. If they won the trademark issue, how come?
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that is my error then, this drama goes back years now, and I have trouble remember what I had for breakfast today :)
Still $5,000 is a lot for used domains like that, I would like to get something like that for some of mine :)
that explains why I said I was surprised they won, turns out they did not. At that time I was getting some letters for a certain organization, over some domain names I own, and I sought out my own counsellors on that.
Am not saying Danny did or did not do anything wrong, the same with Linda, as I say this, the Message is more important that the Messenger. God has used Donkeys, both real and human. If the only people who can share the message are ready for translation we are all in trouble, and the work will never come to being finished.
It is time to press on, I repeat " What I do know is this, there are hurting, dying folks out there that are looking for answers on why there is suffering, pain and death, that need to have answers, and there is the great commission that needs to be fulfilled."
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Stan, if you hadn't figured this out yet, I should make you aware that the Gospel commission is now a commercial enterprise valued in the billions if dollars. That is it's primary function among those who fulfil it. Jesus and the apostles did not commercialize it, they didn't make money off it, Jesus didn't charge admission to his events, he didn't take a salary, he didn't even have a home. Nor did he institute any organization that would do otherwise. But people did. And anything different than what Jesus himself set the example for, is just something humans have invented for their own gain, but of course in Jesus' name, and in the noble purpose of advancing the Gospel and their income.
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If the only people who can share the message are ready for translation we are all in trouble, and the work will never come to being finished.
That isn't the issue, in my opinion. The issue is holding leaders accountable for public sin and misdeeds.
Even though there is a world to warn, Ted Wilson still called for the membership to hold leaders accountable.
It's while the people slept that the enemy sowed tares. So we need to be awake in order to protect the church.
You speak of $5,000 for domain names. How about $1+ million spent in 2007 and 2008 for the litigation? $1+ million reportedly paid to the IRS? c. $500,000 paid to Danny in 2006 by Remnant according to Remnant's 990's? 48 acres of land given to Danny in 2008? A $135,000 house sold to Danny for $6,139 in 1998?
When 3ABN comes into our communities and churches and asks us to give it our money, those who hear have a right to know how that money is being used. And if 3ABN won't tell them, others who choose to do so have a right to do so unmolested.
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Stan, if you hadn't figured this out yet, I should make you aware that the Gospel commission is now a commercial enterprise valued in the billions if dollars. That is it's primary function among those who fulfil it. Jesus and the apostles did not commercialize it, they didn't make money off it, Jesus didn't charge admission to his events, he didn't take a salary, he didn't even have a home. Nor did he institute any organization that would do otherwise. But people did. And anything different than what Jesus himself set the example for, is just something humans have invented for their own gain, but of course in Jesus' name, and in the noble purpose of advancing the Gospel and their income.
The Gospel Commission is not a commercial enterprise. It is a commission directed at you and me to take the gospel to our next door neighbour, and the people we meet in the grocery store and the workplace. There are some who want to set back in their easy chairs and send $20 off to places like 3ABN, the Hopechannel, VOP etc and do their work INSTEAD of them.
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You speak of $5,000 for domain names. How about $1+ million spent in 2007 and 2008 for the litigation? $1+ million reportedly paid to the IRS? c. $500,000 paid to Danny in 2006 by Remnant according to Remnant's 990's? 48 acres of land given to Danny in 2008? A $135,000 house sold to Danny for $6,139 in 1998?
When 3ABN comes into our communities and churches and asks us to give it our money, those who hear have a right to know how that money is being used. And if 3ABN won't tell them, others who choose to do so have a right to do so unmolested.
I do not want to sound like I have inside information, as I do not. I do think the board saw that they had to protect their investment and had to stop what they viewed as slander, especially after a mailing went out to all the churches regarding 3ABN. I did not see that but was told about it by a Pastor.
I have not seen any proof that 3ABN paid anything to the IRS. Some board members told me they did not pay anything. But I do not have access to the financial records, not do I want to hunt that down.
I do know that some other organization have funded a pension, or a pension like asset for pioneers of an organization leaders in the past, if the board did that with the 48 acres then that is what they did. I really do not know the details on that, but it was a board action. I am not saying it was that, just a speculation from past experiences.
Danny did not buy that home for $6,139, be bought the residual value of it, the part he did not own, he did have a life tenancy, ie the right to live there free until death. I do not know the details, but that is a reasonable action.
It is time to press forward, there remains a work for each of us to do, and it involves our neighbours and friends.
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Re the IRS
I do not know how it works in the US, but I do know that in Canada if a charity announced that it had a clean audit from the Canadian IRS (called the CRA) and if that charity actually had a 'dirty audit' the 'gates of hell' would suddenly break loose. Is suspect it is the same with the IRS. I hope a trusted source is not feeding you bad information to manipulate you are about the $1,000,000 to the IRS.
How strong is your evidence on that?
Again, I do not have a pony in this parade, I would just want you to use the talents you have to do the work that I believe that God has called you to do, and I do not believe it is this. Even though we do not agrees on this, I still value your friendship.
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If the only people who can share the message are ready for translation we are all in trouble, and the work will never come to being finished.
That isn't the issue, in my opinion. The issue is holding leaders accountable for public sin and misdeeds.
Even though there is a world to warn, Ted Wilson still called for the membership to hold leaders accountable.
It's while the people slept that the enemy sowed tares. So we need to be awake in order to protect the church.
You speak of $5,000 for domain names. How about $1+ million spent in 2007 and 2008 for the litigation? $1+ million reportedly paid to the IRS? c. $500,000 paid to Danny in 2006 by Remnant according to Remnant's 990's? 48 acres of land given to Danny in 2008? A $135,000 house sold to Danny for $6,139 in 1998?
When 3ABN comes into our communities and churches and asks us to give it our money, those who hear have a right to know how that money is being used. And if 3ABN won't tell them, others who choose to do so have a right to do so unmolested.
Got to love ya Bob. In your list of accusations I noticed you slipped in the word "reportedly" one million plus paid to the IRS. Reported by whom? You have been told repeatedly that after a lengthy investigation by the IRS into Danny and 3abn's financial records, that nothing was found, not even a minor infraction and no money exchanged hands between 3ABN and the IRS. Yet here you go again using the word "reportedly". Let's see what else you like to use: "I was told", "my sources say", "according to people close to the situation", "someone that was there said".....C'mon Bob! Everytime you utter those phrases you are participating in gossip, slander and heresay and therefore sinning big time! Spreading gossip is just as big of a sin as anything you accuse other's of doing. When you do come up with what seems to be a fact, you twist and turn it to fit your own agenda and edit out the parts that show your "fact" to be nothing like you have portrayed it. You can keep repeating your lies over and over instead of admitting all the heresay that you try and spread as facts but God knows and sees what you are doing and you will be accountable. OH, don't waste your time now on telling me what those at 3abn have "reportedly" done. We are talking about you right now Bob. You alone. That is exactly how you will face your creator...alone. And all your excuses about exposing sin in the camp and holding people accountable will be vapors in the wind when our creator says "depart from me, I never knew you". See Bob, when you stand before Him on that day, "you heard", "you were told" and "reportedly" won't be overlooked like it is here. Every bit of heresay that you have used to perpetuate lies and rumors will be written in the sand for you to see. Every minute that you lost trying to win souls because of your sick obsession with 3abn will be shown to you.
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And all you will have to lean on is "I was told", "I heard" and "reportedly".
MODERATOR HAT ON
Attacking people's personal lives is not allowed on this forum. Please see the posted topic "Important Addition to the Forum Privacy Policy" in the material at the top of the 3ABN forum for an explanation.
MODERATOR HAT OFF
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If the only people who can share the message are ready for translation we are all in trouble, and the work will never come to being finished.
That isn't the issue, in my opinion. The issue is holding leaders accountable for public sin and misdeeds.
Even though there is a world to warn, Ted Wilson still called for the membership to hold leaders accountable.
It's while the people slept that the enemy sowed tares. So we need to be awake in order to protect the church.
You speak of $5,000 for domain names. How about $1+ million spent in 2007 and 2008 for the litigation? $1+ million reportedly paid to the IRS? c. $500,000 paid to Danny in 2006 by Remnant according to Remnant's 990's? 48 acres of land given to Danny in 2008? A $135,000 house sold to Danny for $6,139 in 1998?
When 3ABN comes into our communities and churches and asks us to give it our money, those who hear have a right to know how that money is being used. And if 3ABN won't tell them, others who choose to do so have a right to do so unmolested.
Got to love ya Bob. In your list of accusations I noticed you slipped in the word "reportedly" one million plus paid to the IRS. Reported by whom? You have been told repeatedly that after a lengthy investigation by the IRS into Danny and 3abn's financial records, that nothing was found, not even a minor infraction and no money exchanged hands between 3ABN and the IRS. Yet here you go again using the word "reportedly". Let's see what else you like to use: "I was told", "my sources say", "according to people close to the situation", "someone that was there said".....C'mon Bob! Everytime you utter those phrases you are participating in gossip, slander and heresay and therefore sinning big time! Spreading gossip is just as big of a sin as anything you accuse other's of doing. When you do come up with what seems to be a fact, you twist and turn it to fit your own agenda and edit out the parts that show your "fact" to be nothing like you have portrayed it. You can keep repeating your lies over and over instead of admitting all the heresay that you try and spread as facts but God knows and sees what you are doing and you will be accountable. OH, don't waste your time now on telling me what those at 3abn have "reportedly" done. We are talking about you right now Bob. You alone. That is exactly how you will face your creator...alone. And all your excuses about exposing sin in the camp and holding people accountable will be vapors in the wind when our creator says "depart from me, I never knew you". See Bob, when you stand before Him on that day, "you heard", "you were told" and "reportedly" won't be overlooked like it is here. Every bit of heresay that you have used to perpetuate lies and rumors will be written in the sand for you to see. Every minute that you lost trying to win souls because of your sick obsession with 3abn will be shown to you. All the unhappiness that you have caused your family with this same obsession will pass clearly through your vision and finally, finally, your eyes will be opened to all the wrong that you have done, to all the hurt that you have caused other's, to the damage you have done to God's ministry. And all you will have to lean on is "I was told", "I heard" and "reportedly".
Chuckles! That door swings both ways, Sammy!!
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Bob
I thought about this some more.
I think the IRS issue, and the related ones may be resolved if you were to report to the IRS that 3ABN is giving misleading information to their donors over the IRS audit.
If the audit was as clean as the 3ABN lawyers say it was, then the various issues you have spoken about, the residual value of the home, the transfer of the property, the other payment ends up being a moot point.
This following is my personal opinion, I believe it was a clean audit of both 3ABN and DS. I also do not believe that you pulled this info out of the air, I have a tendency to believe that someone you trust is playing you. AND that to me as atrocity, you deserve better.
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There is a substantial difference between an audit and a criminal investigation.
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which was it? AND where is the back up for the fine? If there was one?
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Danny did not buy that home for $6,139, be bought the residual value of it, the part he did not own, he did have a life tenancy, ie the right to live there free until death.
Stan, 3ABN told the IRS under penalty of perjury that they sold the house for either that amount or $6,129. So you can't say that Danny did not buy that home for that amount.
Re the IRS
I do not know how it works in the US, but I do know that in Canada if a charity announced that it had a clean audit from the Canadian IRS (called the CRA) and if that charity actually had a 'dirty audit' the 'gates of hell' would suddenly break loose. Is suspect it is the same with the IRS. I hope a trusted source is not feeding you bad information to manipulate you are about the $1,000,000 to the IRS.
1. The IRS is prohibited by law from disclosing return information. So if 3ABN settled up in some way with the IRS that didn't include disclosure, they could lie all they want and the IRS couldn't say anything about it.
2. 3ABN fought our attempt in the lawsuit to verify their bogus IRS vindication claim. If they really were vindicated, they wouldn't have done that.
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Did he not have a life tenancy on that house? He bought out the remainder value.
I would sell you my home for $6,000 provided I had a second to die life tenancy. You keep it up, pay taxes etc, maintenance until my projected death, or the death of the second to die, which an actuarial research might say would be 40 years from now.
Am dealing with a similar situation right now, except she has to pay maintenance etc.
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I am not saying there might not be issues, but I do not think the sale of the remainder value is one of them.
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Did he not have a life tenancy on that house? He bought out the remainder value.
When did he get the life tenancy? Earlier the same year.
So what if 3ABN were to give me a life tenancy in a $200,000 house this month, and then let me buy the remainder value next month for $10,000? Would anyone doubt that what really happened was that I had bought a $200,000 house for $10,000?
Was the remainder value the current value or the value years down the road? Years down the road.
What did 3ABN tell the IRS the value of the house was in 1998? $52,781.05. (See p. 13 of http://www.save-3abn.com/media/3abn-form-990-1998.pdf (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/3abn-form-990-1998.pdf).)
I would sell you my home for $6,000 provided I had a second to die life tenancy.
Under that scenario, you owned the house to begin with. Danny never owned the house he was given a life estate to.
The fact that May Chung, the owner of the home, was also a 3ABN Board member should be taken into account.
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which was it? AND where is the back up for the fine? If there was one?
It was a criminal investigation, and I have never heard the amount paid called a fine.
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If the audit was as clean as the 3ABN lawyers say it was, then the various issues you have spoken about, the residual value of the home, the transfer of the property, the other payment ends up being a moot point.
No, it isn't moot at all, since Attorney Greg Simpson, 3ABN and Danny's lawyer, admitted to me that the IRS criminal investigation did not look over records going back as far as 1998, the year of the house deal.
But you have zeroed in on the biggest problem with the bogus IRS vindication myth: "as clean as the 3ABN lawyers say it was." The myth is solely based on the word of lawyers? Lawyers who lie?
This following is my personal opinion, I believe it was a clean audit of both 3ABN and DS. I also do not believe that you pulled this info out of the air, I have a tendency to believe that someone you trust is playing you. AND that to me as atrocity, you deserve better.
3ABN and Danny could not have come out clean because of the kickback issue from 2005 forward. Simpson did admit that payments from Remnant to Danny occurred for sales of PPPA booklets to 3ABN.
If you really want to know the truth, get a signed statement from 3ABN and Danny giving me permission to show you the Remnant documents. But I doubt they'll do that, because the name of their game is cover up, cover up, cover up.
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In your list of accusations I noticed you slipped in the word "reportedly" one million plus paid to the IRS. Reported by whom?
I'm not going to say, for obvious reasons.
You have been told repeatedly that after a lengthy investigation by the IRS into Danny and 3abn's financial records, that nothing was found, not even a minor infraction and no money exchanged hands between 3ABN and the IRS.
Reported by whom?
Think about it, Sam. There is no fear of retribution or uncomfortable consequences for you or 3ABN or Danny to reveal the names of your sources for this fictional, bogus IRS vindication myth.
So, name the IRS agent that told whomever that there were no infractions found or money exchanged, and name whomever that IRS agent told.
Also, get Danny and 3ABN to sign a IRS Form 4506 or whatever would allow me to confirm with the IRS agent that no infractions were found.
Now since the IRS investigation was a criminal investigation, and since the criminal division doesn't deal with civil infractions, make sure that the sources you name can vouch for the absence of both criminal and civil infractions, not just criminal infractions.
If you refuse to name your sources, specifically the name of the IRS agent and the name of the person that agent talked with, then how will you ever rebut the charge that you are spreading gossip with the intent to slander?
Every minute that you lost trying to win souls because of your sick obsession with 3abn will be shown to you.
Every minute I've lost trying to win souls because of Danny's sick obsession with using lawyers and courts to muzzle those concerned about his publicly known sins, that will be laid at the feet of Danny one day.
I could describe the soul-winning endeavors I have been involved in within the last week. It's a lot of fun. Sam, are you involved in soul-winning? Have you personally been sharing the third angel's message with those who don't know it yet? Are you ("you" being everyone who has ever used the user ID "Sam") a Seventh-day Adventist?
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This following is my personal opinion, I believe it was a clean audit of both 3ABN and DS.
Stan, if you persist in wanting to defend 3ABN, I suggest you look into the facts a little more, instead of making vague statements about what you presumed might have happened.
It was not an audit, clean or otherwise.
It was a criminal investigation.
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I am not defending 3ABN, I am defending logic, I do not have a pony in that race.
Can you please show me somewhere, the it was con Criminal Investigation? Done by the IRS? They usually call the FBI, or other police bodies.
SHOW ME THE FACTS! you must have them.
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I am not defending 3ABN, I am defending logic, I do not have a pony in that race.
Can you please show me somewhere, the it was con Criminal Investigation? Done by the IRS? They usually call the FBI, or other police bodies.
SHOW ME THE FACTS! you must have them.
Are you saying that the IRS calls the FBI or "other police bodies" to investigate income tax crimes?? Hhmm...
:dunno:
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Here is a preliminary look at what was going on.
-- Original Message --------
From: G. Arthur Joy
Subject: IRS Criminal Investigation
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 12:19:27 -0700
REAPING THE WHIRLWIND: The IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN
Recently there has been much discussion on Black SDA Forums, etc, regarding the source of information that led to the IRS Criminal Investigation. The inference has been made that the source of the investigation, and therefore the beneficiary of any financial reward, was either Robert Pickle or Gailon Arthur Joy.
We have watched the unfolding of this investigation for over a year now and have repeatedly warned various directors and even the New President of the pending process, each time suggesting they be pro-active, open and transparent. Later, as the investigation gained steam we went so far as to suggest that they contact the IRS to work out a consent decree and fine. That list included a conference President, the Chairman of the board, and the New President, and we have borne the ridicule of each one, with disdain in some cases. They now REAP THE WHIRLWIND.
In the Lawsuit brought against this journalist and Robert Pickle they have made the allegation of Defamation Per Se, on the basis that we have made certain allegations regarding transactions that constitute criminal activity. The transactions are real and documented, the question of criminality is left with the prosecutors who have apparently found sufficient cause to open a criminal investigation.
The entire story really begins in April of 2006 in the trust services department of 3ABN in balmy southern California, just outside the gates of Loma Linda University, to some us still stubbornly known as CME (College of Medical Evangelists). There, the Director of 3ABN Trust Services, Leonard Westphal, is reported to have had a significant falling out with the entire staff of the Trust Services division. The issues related to concerns regarding the interpersonal skills of Mr Westphal with Trust Services Clients, certain processes and procedures which the staff found questionable and ultimately some rather rash statements attributed to Leonard Westphal that would lead to an EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) complaint by some staff members.
The staff is said to have coalesced into a team determined to correct the issues. They put together packages of documentation providing evidence to support their concerns with various documents and appropriate cover-letters, sending them to Mollie Steenson, Danny Lee Shelton and Chairman Walter Thompson. Leonard was recalled to the Illinois Campus in April and while there shot some film footage promoting trust services. When he arrived back in sunny Southern Cal, he was followed by Mollie Steenson. Mollie spent most of a week interviewing all the staffers and at the end of the week Mollie Steenson is said to have summarily dismissed the support staff, leaving the alleged perpetrator, Leonard Westphal, in place.
At least some of the alleged victims / disaffected / dismissed employees filed complaints with the California Dept of Fair Housing and Employment in Los Angeles which opened a case file # 37A-AS-10394. The allegations are said to have included Racial Discrimination, Sexual Harassment and Retaliation and sought compensation for lost wages and emotional distress. Two staffers are said to have kept a log of abuses and made these available to Investigators.
A hearing was scheduled for Sept 21, 2006, before the Hearing Examiner and just before the hearing, attorneys for 3ABN claimed exemption from State regulation as a religious organization and the Dept. counsel concurred and referred the file to the Federal EEOC office, that months later accepted jurisdiction.
In the interim, an attorney for one of the complainants became certain that some of the activity described and documented may be violation of the Federal Internal Revenue Service IR Code and is said to have arranged a meeting with former 3ABN staffers and an IRS Special agent in the criminal investigations unit in San Bernadino. There were several meetings as statements were taken and documentation given. Less than a month later, Special Agent CS of San Bernadino had transferred the file to Special Agent CM of Fairview Heights, Illinois, just outside Saint Louis, Missouri.
In October, CM opened a file and began taking statements from various persons, mostly former 3ABN staffers, and collecting documentation of various transactions. As their investigation was under way, I crossed paths on several occasions. Based upon reports from various people who gave statements or documents, the reported designation of this particular Special Agent was C--M--, IRS.CI, a clear reference to the criminal investigations unit.
Shortly after discovering the trail of people who had been interviewed by IRS.CI we made several efforts to contact the Illinois Conference President and 3ABN Board member, --- Denslow. During one contact in late 2006 when the IRS Criminal Investigation came up, Denslow clearly was skeptical at the notion and indirectly contacted 3ABN's business office to see if there was any IRS investigation going on and was assured that there was no such thing. Danny made reference to it later in broadcasts and scoffed at the notion.
Noticeably, the IRS Investigative trail went cold in mid-December and I did not cross paths for months until late March of 2007. The reason is unknown, although, the time frame co-incidentally coincided with the firing of the US Attorney for Illinois by AG Gonzales and the confirmation of her replacement.
The investigation maintained a steady pace and rumors were afoot throughout Southern Illinois for several months. The lawsuit was brought by 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton against this journalist and Robert Pickle in April of 2007. And the IRS criminal investigation plodded on.
Sometime in the late spring we received word that a local politician was stating that the IRS was after Danny Shelton, but gave no specifics. It was not until summer 2007 that the investigation moved from phone statements to the field phase and they began visiting various former staffers and taking formal statements. However, there were key parties that had not been interviewed and we were fairly certain that until those statements were in hand they would not be complete enough for an actual charge.
Then in late August, we were informed that those key parties were scheduled for interviews and realized the case would be open to the public within weeks. We had growing evidence that people were clearly telling 3ABN administrators that something was up and one party that had been interviewed told Pastor Lomacang of the interview, and he was warned it was most likely just an impostor, that no IRS investigator would have approached him that way.
We were informed that one former director was interviewed and promptly contacted the 3ABN Board Chairman. Given the influence of that former director, it would be a safe assumption that he made other parties of interest aware as well.
As Danny was introducing 3ABN's new President, James Gilley, there was growing evidence that Danny was grossly aware of an Investigation and taking steps to disgorge assets that would be problematic such as the sale of his own 4300 sq ft home and a horse barn for a dozen horses on 18 acres. He sold the home, according to land records for a mere $290,000 and held a $220,000 mortgage from James Gilley to himself. He also was reportedly given title to a 40 acre tract by the 3ABN Board at the fall Board meeting in late September 2007, did not take title, pulled a permit to build a 2800 square foot house for $165,000, foundation poured and framed under 3ABN title. Shortly after this process, The Fjarli Foundation filed a release of the $200,000 lien taken to help Danny pay Linda for her portion of the house post divorce. We assume that it is probable that Fjarli did not know about an individual account that Danny did not disclose until rather belatedly after Linda's attorney pushed for discovery, and which Danny kept well hidden from Linda prior to the divorce, that contained an astounding $190,000. In fact it is reported to have been established and hidden well from Linda while running up her liabilities to establish credit well before Dr Arild Abrahamsen came into the picture. Was he preparing for a divorce??? Of course that sum is nothing compared to the rather healthy mid to low six figure account that he reportedly hid from the board of directors at a bank in Michigan related to Remnant Publications royalties while 3ABN ran up a $3,000,000 dollar deficit in support of his Ten Commandments Twice Removed campaign boondoggle and reportedly had to borrow from trust funds to cover the deficit.
Despite all of this activity, as late as Sept 2007, Danny on 3ABN Live scoffed at the notion of an IRS investigation and commented that the IRS doesn't go around behind your back doing investigations but comes right up to your front door. Just a few days later they did just that!!!
In Sept we had made contact with James Gilley indirectly and then directly to warn that he needed to deal with this crisis immediately. His response was classic head in the sand -- he was hired to deal with the future and would not deal with the past -- and went on to express disdain for the premise that those who were trying to destroy 3ABN would be willing to help save 3ABN. Scorned again!!! Really tough to get a date with that 3ABN board. Although we are pretty good at handling rejection by now---what's this, number ten or so???
In late September, after key statements were taken by the IRS Criminal Investigation unit, this journalist made comment that I expected that there would be an IRS visit to the campus very shortly. On Sept 28 we began to hear the first rumors of an IRS visit to the 3ABN campus and how they had taken boxes of documents. In late October, the Board held an emergency meeting in the Worship Center of 3ABN for a day and a half to deal with the IRS criminal Investigation Crisis. On Tuesday, November 27, 2007 the 3ABN Board held a special meeting in St Louis, Missouri, with rumors racing up and down the halls of 3ABN that the Board had gone to work out a deal with the IRS.
Unfortunately, the "rumors" so frequently ignored by the 3ABN Board and Executives have been largely true, and given the sums provable for personal inurement alone, the consent decree and the fine to settle such a substantial claim could run seven figures and require significant improvements in oversight, constituency and governance. Issues the Chairman has repeatedly asserted they have various clean bills of health from accountants and attorneys.
And to think that we could have addressed all this and more either directly with a "reasonable" board or via an ecclesiastical process last year leaves one dismayed and aghast at the indignant refusal to listen to the stock-holders in the pews and of course, yours truly, the nobodies.
Just who the new constituency will be is not yet clear, although the latest word from the Pacific Union is that Central California Conference President, Jerry Page, will serve as the new Chairman of the board and other sources have told us that the Upper Columbia Conference President, Max Torkelsen, has also agreed to join the board. It won't be long and the GC will have a controlling interest on the board that President Folkenberg worked so hard to achieve ten years ago and was rebuffed by Danny Lee Shelton.
Where Danny fits into the process long term is unclear. He reportedly remains on the staff as a "consultant" and still retains his office while 3ABN has put on an addition to include the new President's far more spacious office complete with his own private bath. Danny is a frequent host on 3ABN Live and has an agreement to acquire forty acres from the 3ABN Board that has "cost 3ABN tax money for several years" according to 3ABN Board Chairman Dr Walter Thompson. Many observers seem to feel it is business as usual but a board grappling with the current problems cannot possibly continue business as usual. Many observers wonder just what the directors must think about Danny's administration in retrospect with all the problems they must deal with from this period -- and one must also ask the inevitable question, is it the devil attacking 3ABN or is 3ABN simply REAPING THE WHIRLWIND???
Either way, 3ABN will need our prayers and support as never before as they weather the storm.
Gailon Arthur Joy,
AUReporter
Save3ABN.com
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I read that before, but I still do not fine it convincing that there was a criminal investigation.
It it is fine with me if that satisfies you.
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I read that before, but I still do not fine it convincing that there was a criminal investigation.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see." --Jonathan Swift
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Stan, we already know you are a Danny Shelton/3ABN sympathizer because of your actions over at Club Adventist.
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I am not defending 3ABN, I am defending logic, I do not have a pony in that race.
Can you please show me somewhere, the it was con Criminal Investigation? Done by the IRS? They usually call the FBI, or other police bodies.
SHOW ME THE FACTS! you must have them.
It doesn't hurt to ask for evidence.
- Attorney Jerrie Hayes, when asking the court to issue a confidentiality order, asked to put off limits documents produced to "the Department of Justice in connection with any investigation" (para. 4 of http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-40-2.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-40-2.pdf)). The DOJ would not have been involved if it was just a civil affair.
- Attorney Gerald Duffy stated that both the IRS and the U.S. Attorney had conducted the investigation, which would have only been true if it was a criminal investigation. See http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-96-2.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-96-2.pdf).
- I know it was the IRS criminal division because it was that division that contacted me during their investigation.
Check and see, and you will find that the IRS and DOJ work together on criminal investigations.
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Does Stan have a response to the evidence Bob has posted?
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Thanks Bob, that is what I was looking for..
It would seem like there was a forensic audit done, in conjunction with the DOJ (not the FBI or local police as I thought might be the case.)
Does not the DOJ take people/institutions to court for trial? Is there a court record of such?
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Stan, why don't you Google "DOJ". They are the ones that know what they do! You could be there for a very, very long time.
Might want to look up the State Department, too; like what it has to do with the FCC.
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Thanks Bob, that is what I was looking for..
It would seem like there was a forensic audit done, in conjunction with the DOJ (not the FBI or local police as I thought might be the case.)
Does not the DOJ take people/institutions to court for trial? Is there a court record of such?
I know of no court record. My understanding is that 3ABN or its directors or one or more of its directors made the criminal investigation go away through a large payment, over $1 million.
You're familiar with plea deals, I am sure. Imagine a deal before there are any charges filed. In that type of situation, there wouldn't be any court records, right? What if 3ABN had settled with Alex before Alex's suit was filed? Then searches on PACER would have turned up nothing.
See http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=235956,00.html (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=235956,00.html) where it states about a different type of matter:
Justice may enter into settlement agreements and consent decrees with property owners to obtain compliance with the Act. In the event a property owner fails to comply with the terms of the settlement agreement or consent decree, Justice may seek a court judgment to enforce the terms of the settlement agreement or consent decree.
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Kristeligt Dagblad (Danish Christian Daily) reveals today that there are only 9 Jesuits left in Denmark, and that they stand directly under the pope himself. Some of them are active members of the ecumenical council which was originally established to fight the Roman Catholic influence!
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Bob, it would appear that whether or not you are a Jesuit, you are a Jesuit.
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Bob, it would appear that whether or not you are a Jesuit, you are a Jesuit.
So, yes, he's a Jesuit...is it because of the potato salad?
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How can I be a Jesuit because I'm pointing out sins if the guilty are innocent of those sins? Is not the accusation itself an admission of guilt?
But it just shows you the utter moral bankruptcy of the Danny clones: If you express concerns about child molestation, private inurement, kickbacks, adultery, unbiblical divorce, and deception, you are an evil Jesuit bent on destroying the remnant church.
The remnant church? Why that church is identified in Rev. 12:17 as being obedient to the commandments of God, which obedience would naturally include not molesting children, not sapping one's own ministry of funds, not accepting kickbacks from Remnant Publications, not committing adultery, not divorcing one's spouse, and telling the truth.
Could it be that ... is it possible that ... might the reality of the situation be that ... has anyone ever considered whether ... how likely would it be that ... Danny Shelton is a Jesuit?
In reality, Satan doesn't need Jesuits. He can use the unconverted to do a lot of damage without any help from the followers of Ignatius Loyola of Spain. Sometimes all he needs is indigestion to start a big feud.
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The idea/suggestion that Danny is a Jusuit is as much nonsense (garbage) as is the idea that you might be one. In my opinion, it should be as much beneath your dignity to ask if anyone has considered such about Danny as it should be beneath the dignity of others to ask that about you.
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I think it should be fairly obvious that my question was a bit tongue in cheek. My last paragraph makes the point that Danny or anyone else doesn't have to be a Jesuit in order for Satan to use them to damage the cause of God.
Even so, I don't think it is beneath one's dignity to at times ask such a question.
A number of years ago, a conference secretary told a group of ministers after visiting Cuba that the Cubans told him that the government would try to infiltrate their churches. They could detect the spies because the spies weren't converted, or the spies would become converted and then tell them what had happened. So infiltration by sinister forces has happened in modern times.
I have been in a situation where I wondered whom someone worked for. Regarding others, I wondered what they had eaten for dinner, not whom they worked for.
I don't recall ever seriously wondering if Danny was a Jesuit. However, using the criteria of the Danny clones themselves, I think we have to conclude that Danny really is a Jesuit.
But one doesn't have to be a Jesuit to refuse to resign when caught redhanded covering up child molestation allegations, committing perjury, engaging in unbiblical divorce, lying, suing fellow Adventists, receiving kickbacks from Remnant Publications, engaging in private inurement, and trashing on global TV a young lady alleging sexual assault. One can simply be unregenerate, unconverted, and lost in sin.
Compare Danny Shelton with Samuel Pipim if you will. The latter confessed to doing something that apparently no one really knows about, resigned from conference employment, requested expedited church discipline, graciously accepted the decision to disfellowship him that his church decided upon, and published these things for all the world to see.
So who is really like David: Danny or Pipim? David and Pipim confessed, Danny has not. David and Pipim published their confessions for all the world to see. Danny hasn't even come close.
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I have and opinion that Bob Pickle, and Danny Shelton, are as much Jesuits as I am. Does that make sense?
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Yes, that makes sense, Johann.
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the __________ SDA church in ________ but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.
I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.
**********************
Edited to remove attached picture since Stefan objects to its being posted here, and the name of the church he may attend.
If one looks at http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com) and then does a search for the registrant at http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp (http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp), one ends up with these links which do list the name of a specific church: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13 (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13) if you have the DJVU plugin, or if you don't, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13 (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13).
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They are friends of Brenda W.
They who? He and who else? Not Cindy? If so how would they know her? Do you think Brenda W. the one they are getting their information from?
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Him and his wife. She is real active with our pathfinder kids.
*********************
Edited to remove attached picture, since she objects to her picture being posted here.
A search at http://www.whitepages.com/ (http://www.whitepages.com/) for the registrant at http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com) turns up the possible name of his wife, which explains why the registrant uses an email address with a domain name of liznstef.com. The two names are found together at http://www.stuy-pa.org/padocs/bulletin/Jan_2011_web_final.pdf#Page=9 (http://www.stuy-pa.org/padocs/bulletin/Jan_2011_web_final.pdf#Page=9). Searching for the wife's name in quotes in Google, along with the word Adventist, turns up http://www.gnycyouth.com/article/view/1154/1/198 (http://www.gnycyouth.com/article/view/1154/1/198), a publicly available church-owned website, where the picture now deleted here remains posted.
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The Jesuits I'm acquainted with are all highly educated. This factor alone would exclude Danny from any suspicion on my part.
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So to get back to Steffan and his wife being friends with Brenda W. (and his wife looks like a very nice lady) I guess that would explain why he might get caught up in controversy involving her and believe any information (or misiformation) from that source. Still doesn't explain why Cindy is so biased.
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the Old Westbury SDA church in New York but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
Why would he feel compelled to become so involved, and be so verbally brutal? Can a mere friendship explain that?
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I had a relative who would get everybody in the family indignant about her doctor, what he supposedly said to her and the treatment he proposed. Then I started taking her to the doctor because her former transportation was unavailable. I would hear everything he said to her and when she reported it to the family later it didn't resemble at all what he what he had said in any way. She liked to dramatize and to be the center of attention. Yet in every other way she was charming and we all loved her. Some people have a talent for this.
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the Old Westbury SDA church in New York but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
Why would he feel compelled to become so involved, and be so verbally brutal? Can a mere friendship explain that?
Bob, have you ever met Brenda Walsh?
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the Old Westbury SDA church in New York but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
Why would he feel compelled to become so involved, and be so verbally brutal? Can a mere friendship explain that?
Bob, have you ever met Brenda Walsh?
Not really.
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I had the honor of sitting next to Brenda W. at a dinner table.
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And many would envy you that honor, though an increasing number would gag over it.
I had the honor of sitting next to Brenda W. at a dinner table.
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When personalities become the celebrities people clamour over instead of God, they have created of themselves the graven images spoken of in the 10 commandments. When people become centric to a person who represents God to them, they have created a graven image and worship a false god. Danny Shelton, Brenda Walsh, Doug Bachelor, the pope, a saint... Any human who you place on a divine pedestal is your false god whom you have put before the one true God.
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the __________ SDA church in ________ but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.
I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.
**********************
Edited to remove attached picture since Stefan objects to its being posted here, and the name of the church he may attend.
If one looks at http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com) and then does a search for the registrant at http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp (http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp), one ends up with these links which do list the name of a specific church: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13 (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13) if you have the DJVU plugin, or if you don't, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13 (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13).
It's probably a safety issue. For all of the garbage he spews about other people, he must have a lot of enemies.
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It's probably a safety issue. For all of the garbage he spews about other people, he must have a lot of enemies.
Good point, Snoopy!
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Here is a link to Steffans picture
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ylord/187175108/in/photosof-73323198@N00/
And a decon schedule
http://www.owsda.org/site/1/docs/decon_schedule_2010.pdf
And a Christmas program
http://www.owsda.org/gallery.php?album=9
He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the __________ SDA church in ________ but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.
I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.
**********************
Edited to remove attached picture since Stefan objects to its being posted here, and the name of the church he may attend.
If one looks at http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com (http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com) and then does a search for the registrant at http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp (http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp), one ends up with these links which do list the name of a specific church: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13 (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13) if you have the DJVU plugin, or if you don't, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13 (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13).
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Here is a link to Steffans picture
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ylord/187175108/in/photosof-73323198@N00/
And a decon schedule
http://www.owsda.org/site/1/docs/decon_schedule_2010.pdf
And a Christmas program
http://www.owsda.org/gallery.php?album=9
He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the __________ SDA church in ________ but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.
I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.
**********************
Edited to remove attached picture since Stefan objects to its being posted here, and the name of the church he may attend.
If one looks at http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/sbvzagbxqdgw/snelfv/p1/3atalk.com) and then does a search for the registrant at http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/sboguuqgqkkbniasbz/sxyz/p1/DocArchives.asp), one ends up with these links which do list the name of a specific church: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13 (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/sboguuqgqkkbniasbz/sxyz/p1/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13) if you have the DJVU plugin, or if you don't, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13 (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/sboguuqgqkkbniasbz/sxyz/p1/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13).
Isn't that personal and apart from what is being discussed here? In any case, what does that have to do with 3abn issues, and why is that important to know either for yourself, or for others, according to your thinking???
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the Old Westbury SDA church in New York but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
Why would he feel compelled to become so involved, and be so verbally brutal? Can a mere friendship explain that?
Bob, have you ever met Brenda Walsh?
Not really.
Okay... then how can anything he says about her or what she allegedly said or did have any factual relevance, or how can he understand her thinking or motivation, or know what she really said or did?
Seriously, I'm just askin....
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He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the Old Westbury SDA church in New York but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
Why would he feel compelled to become so involved, and be so verbally brutal? Can a mere friendship explain that?
Bob, have you ever met Brenda Walsh?
Not really.
Okay... then how can anything he says about her or what she allegedly said or did have any factual relevance, or how can he understand her thinking or motivation, or know what she really said or did?
Seriously, I'm just askin....
Because I have a recording of her spewing forth all kinds of venom against Linda, including the lie that Linda bought the tickets against her wishes, and the lie that Linda's ticket was used.
I don't really know Obama either, but when I hear recordings of him giving speeches, I can say that he said this or that. The same applies to Brenda.
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Why Brenda? Brenda is as important a party to this dilemma as the bequiling snake is to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden and for the very same reason....SHE LIED!!! And had difficulty telling the same story twice!!! And has never confessed the same!!! And still benefits from the perpetuation of the GREAT LIES!!
Had it not been for the gross falsities and the perpetuation of the same by Brenda, DLS would not have have been able to perpetuate his great lie he has perpetuated for how many years?
Fortunately, Danny's real character is being fully exposed as time moves on with his life the true revelation of the fraud he represents. And someday, his board will have much to answer for...and as an old stalwart SDA veteran of reformation adventism so frequently says:
"Now you know why we will need a thousand years!!!"
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Here is a link to Steffans picture
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ylord/187175108/in/photosof-73323198@N00/
And a decon schedule
http://www.owsda.org/site/1/docs/decon_schedule_2010.pdf
And a Christmas program
http://www.owsda.org/gallery.php?album=9
He claims to be. Last we knew he goes to the __________ SDA church in ________ but they may have moved. They are friends of Brenda W.
It is pathetic, isn't it DARVO.
I would have trouble calling that site an "Advent blog site." To my knowledge Cindy Conard is not currently a member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but I could be wrong. I don't know about Stefan.
**********************
Edited to remove attached picture since Stefan objects to its being posted here, and the name of the church he may attend.
If one looks at http://whois.domaintools.com/3atalk.com (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/sbvzagbxqdgw/snelfv/p1/3atalk.com) and then does a search for the registrant at http://www.adventistarchives.org/DocArchives.asp (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/sboguuqgqkkbniasbz/sxyz/p1/DocArchives.asp), one ends up with these links which do list the name of a specific church: http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13 (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/sboguuqgqkkbniasbz/sxyz/p1/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=13) if you have the DJVU plugin, or if you don't, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13 (http://server1.kproxy.com/servlet/redirect.srv/sruj/shhzdcy/s1iwolzo/p1/servlet/redirect.srv/slxv/sboguuqgqkkbniasbz/sxyz/p1/docs/ALUG/ALUG20001201-V99-12__C.pdf#Page=13).
Isn't that personal and apart from what is being discussed here? In any case, what does that have to do with 3abn issues, and why is that important to know either for yourself, or for others, according to your thinking???
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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So which one is Steffan, the man in the foreground or the one standing with the woman with the umberella?
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So which one is Steffan, the man in the foreground or the one standing with the woman with the umberella?
Put your mouse over the people in the picture, or put your mouse over the name under "People in this photo," and Steffan's name will appear over one of the people.
I always wondered where Steffan got the other part of his name that he used as a user name on one of the forums. It was interesting to see that very same name in the deacon schedule.
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So which one is *******, the man in the foreground or the one standing with the woman with the umberella?
Put your mouse over the people in the picture, or put your mouse over the name under "People in this photo," and Steffan's name will appear over one of the people.
I always wondered where ******* got the other part of his name that he used as a user name on one of the forums. It was interesting to see that very same name in the deacon schedule.
Interesting that he appears to use two different names and she does not appear to take any of them.
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I think Kuttikadu [India] might be where he is from (couldn't say for sure) and so might not be appropriate for her to use if she is not from there. Don't know too much about the Indian naming system. I wondered if Philip would be like a middle name or perhaps a Christian name as I think some take Bible names to replace names that honor false dieties.
She may keep her maiden name if that is what she is known by professionally. As a dentist for instance. I have a neice who is a doctor and though she is married she kept her name. I don't think that we have to read something sinister into it though.
Edited for clarification.
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Absolutely not! No sinister insinuation intended. I wondered if it might be a cultural thing. By the way, how do you know they are Indian?
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Never mind. I googled it.
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Snoopy if the mods would like to remove the last name-place name that is fine with me as I didn't know until recently that that might be a no-no and I didn't see where I could go back in to modify it.
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Snoopy if the mods would like to remove the last name-place name that is fine with me as I didn't know until recently that that might be a no-no and I didn't see where I could go back in to modify it.
No reply and it's still there, eh?
It only a "no, no" if it's personal info or commentary about a a 3abn critic, :console: otherwise it's allowed :pals: as all should be able to see by now... ;)
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Snoopy if the mods would like to remove the last name-place name that is fine with me as I didn't know until recently that that might be a no-no and I didn't see where I could go back in to modify it.
No reply and it's still there, eh?
It only a "no, no" if it's personal info or commentary about a a 3abn critic, :console: otherwise it's allowed :pals: as all should be able to see by now... ;)
Sir Mizer, given your apptitude for forum management, please advise what specific rule COTK's post violates.
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Snoopy if the mods would like to remove the last name-place name that is fine with me as I didn't know until recently that that might be a no-no and I didn't see where I could go back in to modify it.
No reply and it's still there, eh?
It only a "no, no" if it's personal info or commentary about a a 3abn critic, :console: otherwise it's allowed :pals: as all should be able to see by now... ;)
Sir Mizer, given your apptitude for forum management, please advise what specific rule COTK's post violates.
Hhmm.... Ah, the silence!!
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Snoopy if the mods would like to remove the last name-place name that is fine with me as I didn't know until recently that that might be a no-no and I didn't see where I could go back in to modify it.
No reply and it's still there, eh?
It only a "no, no" if it's personal info or commentary about a a 3abn critic, :console: otherwise it's allowed :pals: as all should be able to see by now... ;)
Sir Mizer, given your apptitude for forum management, please advise what specific rule COTK's post violates.
Hhmm.... Ah, the silence!!
deafening
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:wave: :wave: :wave:
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Is this the same wimp that tried to be intimidating? You must be kidding!!! I assumed he was a joke but this is ludicrous!!!
I have been asked to investigate an issue in the Greater New York conference and that will give me an opportunity to visit the Godless Rascal. I'll have to catch him on a day he is a "Greeter" and will give him my business card. Or should I just put my name in the Guest Book? I see there are couple of old classmates on the roster as well.
Hard to believe this big mouthed hypocrit actually attends a church!!! Has anyone challenged his fellowship standing?
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Snoopy if the mods would like to remove the last name-place name that is fine with me as I didn't know until recently that that might be a no-no and I didn't see where I could go back in to modify it.
No reply and it's still there, eh?
It only a "no, no" if it's personal info or commentary about a a 3abn critic, :console: otherwise it's allowed :pals: as all should be able to see by now... ;)
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News
World news
Pope Benedict XVI
Pope accused of crimes against humanity by victims of sex abuse
Victims' complaint to the international criminal court accuses Pope Benedict and three others of failing to prevent abusers
Karen McVeigh
guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 13 September 2011 12.01 BST
Article history
Pope Benedict XVI
Pope Benedict XVI, who has been cited in a complaint to the international criminal court. Photograph: Vincenzo Pinto/AFP/Getty Images
Victims of sexual abuse by Catholic priests have accused the pope, the Vatican secretary of state and two other high-ranking Holy See officials of crimes against humanity, in a formal complaint to the international criminal court (ICC).
The submission, lodged at The Hague on Tuesday, accuses the four men not only of failing to prevent or punish perpetrators of rape and sexual violence but also of engaging in the "systematic and widespread" practice of concealing sexual crimes around the world.
It includes individual cases of abuse where letters and documents between Vatican officials and others show a refusal to co-operate with law enforcement agencies seeking to pursue suspects, according to the Centre for Constitutional Rights (CCR), a US-based organisation that represents the claimants.
Pam Spees, human rights attorney with CCR, said: "The point of this is to look at it from a higher altitude. You zoom out and the practices are identical: whistleblowers are punished, the refusal of the Vatican to co-operate with law enforcement agencies. You see the protection of priests and leaving them in the ministry and because of these decisions other children are raped and sexually assaulted."
She said: "It's not only the facts of the abuse but the way that the church deepened the harm in sometimes irreparable ways."
According to the document filed by CCR, the pope, as head of the Catholic church, is ultimately responsible for the sexual abuse of children by priests and for the cover-ups of that abuse. The group argues that he and others have "direct and superior responsibility" for the crimes of those ranked below them, similar to a military chain of command.
The others named in the complaint are Angelo Sodano, dean of the College of Cardinals and former Vatican secretary of state; Cardinal Tarcissio Bertone, now secretary of state, who previously served at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), the organisation tasked with handling sexual abuse cases under the pope when he was Cardinal Ratzinger; and Cardinal William Lavada, head of the CDF, whose handling of previous sexual abuse cases has been criticised in the past.
Megan Petersen, from Minnesota, is one of two named US victims whose cases have been included in the complaint to the ICC. Petersen was awarded $750,000 (£500,000) last week in a civil claim against Crookston diocese, in which she alleged that a priest, Joseph Jeyapaul, had raped her repeatedly as a child.
Speaking at The Hague, where the complaint was being launched, Petersen said of Jeyapaul: "He was a man of God and I was very devout. I wanted to be a nun. I trusted him.
"Part of why I'm here is to protect kids. My perpetrator is still serving among kids and vulnerable adults, despite there being criminal charges against him. Ratzinger is the head of this organisation and these are his sheep, his flock. I will do everything in my power to make sure this does not happen to another child." Jeyapaul has denied the abuse from India, where he is serving as a priest.
Amnesty International's latest annual human rights report, which cited the Holy See for the first time, concluded there was widespread evidence of child sexual abuse by members of the clergy over past decades, and an "enduring failure" of the Catholic church to seek redress.
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Is the pope making up?
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/germany/110924/pope-germany-sex-abuse-victims
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Sam you have got some nerve. First, none of which you say can be proven, but I on the other hand can prove you're a liar. You keep up bringing up the gay issue like it's a bad thing? Yet, you fail to realize you defend an admitted pedophile who is what? GAY! Now your nonsense and half truths is getting old, so I will not respond to you anymore. One other thing John Manly withdrawing from my case had nothing to do with whether he believed me or not so quit insinuating he did, or Ill prove your cowardly [censored] wrong.
Finally, you quit using Adam's name. Good job!
What I say can be proven if your sister ends up testifying to it. Your parents already have.
Is being gay not a bad thing? You say you were a minister. Were you a gay minister? Is that why they let you go?
You are right about one thing. John M didn't let you go because he didn't personally believe you...he did until he started investigating your claims so he could defend you in court. That's when it all hit the fan and he discovered one lie after another. No attorney wants to be made a fool of in court and since he found out you were not credible he wasn't about to take your case.
Question...will you pursue this even if Tommy dies? The medical reports presented to the court recently say that he had a huge stroke with permanent damage. Oh wait, of course you would still pursue as it is all about getting money that doesn't belong to you. After all didn't you threaten to sue your own dad at one time and then threaten to sue an employer that you thought discriminated against gays? Neither of those threats came to fruition so you had to try another route. In these poor economic times a guy has to find some way to make a living! :dunno:
Oh, Sam!!!!! Read the high-lighted part. So, are you saying that it was okay for Tommy the pedophile to be a gay minister? Not only a GAY minister but a RAGING PEDOPHILE?????