reddogs,
Can you define what you mean by gossip or hearsy?
Is it an obligation to stop wrong doing,or to turn a blind eye and let it continue to harm others so as not to be seen as spreading gossip or hearsy?
Interesting[/quote]
1.If it is your designation to oversee and/or are in charge of the institution or the employees/members, then you do your duty or job.
Aren't we all in charge of the employees. They exist and have a position in that capacity either "voted" in by members and/or are paid with our tithe dollar.
2. Everyone else who is a close friend, their pastor, or has direct access to those doing wrong have a obligation as a Christian brother/sister to bring it up to them, then proceed through the steps as outlined in the scriptures.
And when following scripture has been tried again and again, and the wrong doing that harms others continues, then what? Leave those that are guilty of wrong doing to committ more and more.
It can be very difficult for the one wronged and sees a need for change to accommplish that one on one. Usually the power is not with one
3.The rest need to leave it be, as gossip, hearsay, rumors, etc.. tend to get sensationilized and by their very nature only lead to more harm and no good will come of it..
This can and does happen of course. What I noticed that was left out of your statement is the responsibility for those suspected of wrong or committing the wrong doing is to be either open and upfront to quickly dispel the "gossip" and not tarnish what they claim to be about. Or admit the wrong doing, seek forgivness, make restitution where possible, and move on with a changed life.
Many times making the "rest aware" can lead to a change.
Just so we are clear on what the issue is...
Main Entry: 1gos·sip
Pronunciation: \?gä-s?p\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English gossib, from Old English godsibb, from god god + sibb kinsman, from sibb related — more at sib
Date: before 12th century
1 adialect British : godparent b: companion, crony c: a person who habitually reveals personal or sensational facts about others
2 a: rumor or report of an intimate nature b: a chatty talk c: the subject matter of gossip
So reddogs, is there ever a place for protesting against lying to cover up child molestation allegations, or divorcing without biblical grounds, matters that aren't hearsay or gossip, things that were done by someone who gets on my neighbor's TV and claims to them to be a Seventh-day Adventist?
And did I not go privately to Danny Shelton and Walt Thompson about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations, and then after Walt asked me to verify the information he had given me, did I not go back to Danny Shelton again?
And now that Danny Shelton has sued in retaliation, thus dragging all this garbage into an extremely public sphere, and his refusal thus far to back down, is he not somewhat to blame for the ongoing publicity his lawsuit will receive?
Have you written Walt and Danny and similarly chastised them for spreading gossip and rumors about a number of us?
1.Now you are not the employer, you can have a say to the employer directly as you are members of the church or those in authority at all levels to pass on up, but to pass it amoung yourselves it gets distorted and turns into nothing but street level hearsay, and useless gossip. If that is what is being defended, then Pauls words apply, and they are strong and quite clear........
Are you forgetting who employs the employer .What employers of the denomination do, present,claim represents all of us. Those that employ the employer
2.As to forcing a confession of responsibility out of a brother or sister, those who advocate that need think about it as they go over what scripture says....
Matthew 7:4
Please do not put words in my mouth. I said nothing about forcing a confession. We were discussing following scripture. When one side does and the other resists by demanding the other follow scripture, where does thats leave us? Excuse me,expecting responsibility and accountibility for actions is not unbiblical.
2.Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
I will assume you have a beam in your eye, or at the least a mote. Does this include the removal of that prior to chastising others for gossip
By the standards you have set out,if there is fraud, abuse,sexual/physical, lies, unless the guilty party or parties wishes to meet with you and act according to the scripture you have quoted, we need to accept the continuing, harmful conduct. Sounds a lot like business as usual
1.My sister, if those that oversee are doing their job and we have charged them to make sure those they employ are sound Christians and of good moral character, and give them any evidence to the contrary, then it is their resposibility.
Back to the same tired old question. When THEY fail in their responsibility then what?
2. But to take apart and destroy others with gossip by anyone who watched a show does not give those permission to spread hearsay and heartless chatter, and it is not what Christians should strive for or do...
The key words for me here are heartless chatter.
Have you perhaps discussed DS's heartless chatter with him? And told him ,as the then leader of a televangelist program, that like it or not is seen as representing the SDA denomination, that what he did was unchristian? What have you determined is hearsy and without foundation and where did you obtain that knowledge. Was he factual and stating that which was necessary to say publically?
Are we back to the mote and the beam?
Had DS used his heartless chatter and spreading hearsy towards anyone other than his former wife,it would have been surprising if he and the whole of 3ABN was not slapped with such a lawsuit it would have made their head swim. Probably the only question would have been how many zero's to add to the check.
Are you of the opinion that this whole thing is about someone watching a show?
It always puzzles me that those so quick to level the charge of "gossip" towards others seem themselves to be up on what the current gossip is.
Is it to perform a christian duty to chastise others and attribute motive? Or is it a desire to keep abreast of the "gossip" while trying to keep clean hands
From the way things are getting handled now, I would say its being taken care of in a brutally public manner.......
I watch 3ABN when the oppurtunity presents itself, I am not friends, family, or in charge of any of the 3ABN employees, so thus to try to force them to face responsibility is not my place or to talk about the issues with others would be idle gossip or rumor. Now if you are a friend, family, or in charge of them, then you are doing the right thing to correct them if they have done wrong, otherwise the words and hearsy is being used to arbitrarily comdemn and only evil is served........
You are still completely avoiding answering my questions while continuing to worry about the mote in the eyes of others.
The discussion concerning this issue has been referred to here and in other forums as "adventist tabloid" "rumor" "idle gossip" "speculation"
and now evil".
Pretty much sums up how I feel about the National Enquirer. I don't read that at all, just to keep abreast of what they are doing wrong. I could not tell you from week to week what they are guilty of.
Seems you keep abreast of the wrong doing of others. Why"
Isn't there something about avoiding that which you believe to be evil?
3ABN and the impact allegations,if true, can have on the denomination as a whole includes all of us.
I know this in some ways may be rather simplistic, but had DS not begun to make himself look the injured party when most were not aware,he would have avoided much of this.
When serious questions and doubts were raised, and it doesn't seem without cause, about financial matters,open and honest availability of where money went,etc would have solved most of the other issues.
Confidentiality in money management, money donated to a non-profit,has little business claiming confidentiality.
A little different scenerio, but at one time my siblings and I were responsible for the care of our elderly aunt.
Money was involved, money that was not ours to do with as we chose. My SIL took care of the bulk of the matters.
Every penny had to be accounted for,it was not ours. We could not lay claim to anything being confidential. When asked we could not hem and haw. The proof best be there and documented.
I see little difference here.
I do not care what anyone else says. The burden is on DS and 3ABN. Provide the written documentation for how you have spent the money that shows it was for the stated,intended use.
Do not make threats against another. As it seems was directed towards Mabel Dunbar, according to what was posted.
Do not publically humilate an ex-spouse, especially where the proof you are requiring is lacking.
Do not create a mess and then chastise others and condemn for wanting it straightened out as it reflects on the SDA denomination as a whole
That is what this 3ABN issue reminds me of, the sensationalism of the National Enquirer, the impact is marginal as hardly anybody in the SDA churches in our area brings it up or cares for its details. There seems to be some Adventist who seem to think this is the most important issue that needs to be dealt with and seem fixated with it, and let me say I think our time and effort would be better spent helping to build more churches, helping those who want to attend a Adventist Christian school and need financial help, helping those members losing their homes, their jobs and other more urgent needs that do good for our brothers and sisters, not waste time doing no good for anyone.....
Still avoiding? Why are your reading the equivalent of the National Enquirer?
On one point we do agree. Hardly anyone cares. No one really cares about the great damage done concerning many issues that impact our denomination negatively.
Helping and doing as per your suggestions is great. But when you drag the garbage behind you, all you do is infect those you are trying to help and bring in
If that is your job or position or position to oversee 3ABN, then that is fine.
But these are not things that are thrown out for any person on the street to go over, that is not the Christ like manner that personal issues need to be dealt with, do you want all your secret sins bared before others that dont really care about you.
Its not for us to drag a brother or sister out to be ridiculed and judged, we should only try to help a brother or sister that has fallen into sin as Christ made very clear when He helped the woman caught in adultery, and did not condemn but told her 'Go and sin no more'.......
We need to follow Christs example and instead of finding reasons to condemn, help a brother or sister who have fallen into the abyss of sin and find a way back to Christ......
John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
There seems to be some Adventist who seem to think this is the most important issue that needs to be dealt with and seem fixated with it, and let me say I think our time and effort would be better spent helping to build more churches, helping those who want to attend a Adventist Christian school and need financial help, helping those members losing their homes, their jobs and other more urgent needs that do good for our brothers and sisters, not waste time doing no good for anyone.....
If that is your job or position or position to oversee 3ABN, then that is fine.
Walt Thompson, chairman of the 3ABN Board, asked me to verify the info he gave me. John Lomacang asked for those who had questions to call him. John Lomacang told me that I could see the phone card phone records if I wanted to.
Now Danny Shelton in blatant violation of the Bible and SoP has sued me, making all kinds of outlandish allegations in a lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court. It is my job and position, given to me by Danny Shelton himself, to defend myself and prove his allegations false and the allegations against him true, in the public arena.But these are not things that are thrown out for any person on the street to go over, that is not the Christ like manner that personal issues need to be dealt with, do you want all your secret sins bared before others that dont really care about you.
Mat. 18 dictates that if they do not respond, it is to be taken to the church. In some situations it needs to be reported to law enforcement.
And remember, we aren't talking about secret sins. Danny's divorcing Linda in Guam is not a secret. Tommy's alleged molesting of boys is not a secret. I dare say, since I'm told that the employees at the time were talking about it amongst themselves, that Tammy Chance's alleged affair with her cousin was not a secret either.Its not for us to drag a brother or sister out to be ridiculed and judged, we should only try to help a brother or sister that has fallen into sin as Christ made very clear when He helped the woman caught in adultery, and did not condemn but told her 'Go and sin no more'.......
We need to follow Christs example and instead of finding reasons to condemn, help a brother or sister who have fallen into the abyss of sin and find a way back to Christ......
Didn't I try to do that, and Danny spurned my effort?John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."
And how does that apply? Let us not take this to extremes. Are we to believe that no parent can discipline their children unless they are without sin? That no teacher can reprimand, no judge hand down a sentence, no cop arrest, unless they are without sin?
Clearly, that story is about upholding law and justice. A lady allured into sin was to be stoned for adultery, while those who allured her were not? That would be in violation of the law that said that both the man and the woman were to be condemned.
Jesus was not contradicting the counsel He gave in Mat. 18, when He said that the church could judge the unrepentant.
Reddogs:
Thank you for all your directives toward various persons on this forum (sarcasm intended).
Now perhaps it would be good for you to go out and help build churches, as you suggested.
(Clearly you have not suffered at the hands of 3ABN.)
And reddogs, let us recall a little bit of the past. In early July 2006, Alyssa Moore issued a signed, confidential statement alleging that Danny Shelton had sexually assaulted her. On August 10, 2006, Danny orchestrated a globally televised TV broadcast in which they said Danny was being lied about and persecuted, but they weren't going to defend themselves. Then Danny allowed Shelley Quinn to insinuate on that broadcast that Alyssa was a liar, and he did not rebuke her for it or edit that part out before it was rebroadcast.
I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up. Did Danny launch an investigation into who was allegedly picking on the poor mayor, trying to scare the old man out of his wits and intimidate him?
Also recall how Mike Riva sent a nasty letter to Glenn Dryden in 2003, threatening that non-Adventist pastor simply because he was concerned about allegations of child molestation. The legal basis in the letter? Even if the actions did occur, the statute of limitations had run out, so shut up or we'll sue. What do you think of that reasoning?
Then the man had the audacity to write another nasty letter over the same subject less than three years letter to the members of the board of trustees of the Community Church of God, on behalf of 3ABN as well as Tommy, threatening to sue every last one of them. What does Riva think about the condemnations of the Word of God against moral impurity? And about Jesus' warning, "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?"
Jim Gilley really ought to order Riva to issue a prompt apology, if Riva wants to do any more legal work for 3ABN. If Riva is a Bible-believing and Bible-following Christian, he shouldn't have any problem at all apologizing to Dryden and his church for trying to threaten them into silence over their concerns about child molestation allegations. Those who seek to follow in the footsteps of Jesus do apologize.
They also don't act like the priest and Levite and pass by on the other side when someone falls among thieves. They act like the Samaritan and get involved and help the mistreated and downtrodden, even if it means their loss.
Bob,
I hate to say it, but you seem fixated on this issue, and you yourself have been harm. It doesnt have winners, everyone comes out damaged, there is nothing good that is served by the lurid details....You have to let it go and with much prayer allow Christ's love to wipe this out of your heart...
Your brother in Christ
Red
What is this comment all about? Never heard of this before.
I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up. Did Danny launch an investigation into who was allegedly picking on the poor mayor, trying to scare the old man out of his wits and intimidate him?
There is no corroboration via a web site or a document?
Did you talk to the mayor?
I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up.
so what, some one called you and said that the mayor down there might not like 3ABN ....
Quote Bob Pickle: "I hadn't heard it before either till recently."
That is a response?
There is no corroboration via a web site or a document? Nothing other than you saying something happened? Come on, isn't there a story here, other than your saying something happened? A signed affidavit, an email, a phone call that can be transcribed - maybe posted as an audio file?
Where did you hear about it? Did you talk to the mayor? A police chief? Someone with some sort of validity had to give it to you, right? Did you talk to anyone directly involved, a first person source? There has to be something there that made you feel comfortable enough to throw it out for public discussion, you wouldn't have just tossed out a third or fourth person comment, that would be too dangerous - wouldn't it?
Habanero, yes, the appellate court said something like that.
But it was in the administrative hearing that Danny spoke about the mayor, from what I recall.
To tell you the truth, Danny "told" me about the mayor. At least, that's what I recall.
I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up. Did Danny launch an investigation into who was allegedly picking on the poor mayor, trying to scare the old man out of his wits and intimidate him?
Jim Gilley really ought to order Riva to issue a prompt apology, if Riva wants to do any more legal work for 3ABN...
I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up. Did Danny launch an investigation into who was allegedly picking on the poor mayor, trying to scare the old man out of his wits and intimidate him?
Please note again what I said:I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up.
To tell you the truth, Danny "told" me about the mayor. At least, that's what I recall.
And I believe you got that wrong. From what I could tell, he likes 3ABN.
That's the way rumors and gossip get started. People assume this or that instead of sticking with what was said.
Habanero, yes, the appellate court said something like that.
But it was in the administrative hearing that Danny spoke about the mayor, from what I recall.
Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?
Gossip and hear-say are on the same level as God-haters and the faithless to say nothing of the other things that it is compared to that Paul goes over.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:28-32
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
1 Timothy 5:13
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
Proverbs 26:20
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.
So what is the opposite of these things that we should be doing, well Paul says it at the begining of Romans 1:
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. 7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. Romans 1:1-12
I think that is something to think about, to mutually encourage each other is what we should be doing, not looking at each others weak points and seeing how to tear each other down....
"...Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed. "
Brother F has had the cause of God at heart, but he has felt too deeply, and has taken on many burdens which he should not have borne. He has suffered in health in this way. He has sometimes viewed matters in a strong light, and has been too earnest and anxious to have all see them just as he did; and because they were backward in doing so, he has felt nearly crushed. He feels to the depths, and is in danger of urging his views of things too strongly.
Sister F wants to be a Christian, but she has not cultivated discretion and true courtesy. She is of a very sanguine turn of mind, ardent and self-confident. She shows the rough part of her character, and has not appeared to advantage. She has moved from impulse, acting just as she felt, and sometimes her feelings have been much excited and strong. She has strong likes and dislikes, and has permitted this unfortunate trait in her character to develop itself, greatly to the detriment of her own spiritual advancement and to the injury of the church. She has talked too much and unwisely, just as she felt. This has had a strong influence upon her husband, and has at times led him to move from excitement of feeling, when if he had waited and looked at matters calmly and weighed them properly, it would have been better for himself and for the church. Nothing is gained by moving hurriedly, moving from impulse, or from strong feeling.
Sister F moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located. Unless she is converted and an entire change is wrought in her, unless she educates herself to be slow to speak and slow to wrath, and cultivates true Christian courtesy, her influence will prove injurious, and the happiness of others connected with her will suffer. She manifests an independence which is a damage to her and alienates her friends. This independence has caused her much trouble and has wounded her best friends.
If those who had means were close in their deal with her husband, and did not favor him more than worldlings in business transactions, she has felt and talked, and aroused feelings of dissatisfaction where none previously existed. This is a selfish world at best. Many of those who profess the truth are not sanctified by it, and may not have a heart to make even a trifling variation in the prices of produce when dealing with a poor brother, sooner than they would with an able worldling. They do not love their neighbors as themselves. It would be more pleasing to God were there less selfishness and more disinterested benevolence.
As Sister F has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified.
Sister F, if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all.
You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin?
All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom. If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head.
Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark.
Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed.
Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers.
Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?
Gossip and hear-say are on the same level as God-haters and the faithless to say nothing of the other things that it is compared to that Paul goes over.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:28-32
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
1 Timothy 5:13
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
Proverbs 26:20
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.
So what is the opposite of these things that we should be doing, well Paul says it at the begining of Romans 1:
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. 7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. Romans 1:1-12
I think that is something to think about, to mutually encourage each other is what we should be doing, not looking at each others weak points and seeing how to tear each other down....
Thank you :)
Here is more on the topic of how to deal with sin and error, and how not to...
Ye shall... neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD... in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour....Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour: I am the LORD. Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Lev 19:11-18
Pro 26:20 Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.
King David had it right:"Thy glory, O Israel, is slain upon thy high places!
How are the mighty fallen!
Tell it not in Gath,
Publish it not in the streets of Ashkelon;
Lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice,
Lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph."
So did Ellen White:Quote"...Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed. "Quote from: Entire unedited chapter from Testimony to the Church , vol 2, chapter 4 pp 50-54
Brother F has had the cause of God at heart, but he has felt too deeply, and has taken on many burdens which he should not have borne. He has suffered in health in this way. He has sometimes viewed matters in a strong light, and has been too earnest and anxious to have all see them just as he did; and because they were backward in doing so, he has felt nearly crushed. He feels to the depths, and is in danger of urging his views of things too strongly.
Sister F wants to be a Christian, but she has not cultivated discretion and true courtesy. She is of a very sanguine turn of mind, ardent and self-confident. She shows the rough part of her character, and has not appeared to advantage. She has moved from impulse, acting just as she felt, and sometimes her feelings have been much excited and strong. She has strong likes and dislikes, and has permitted this unfortunate trait in her character to develop itself, greatly to the detriment of her own spiritual advancement and to the injury of the church. She has talked too much and unwisely, just as she felt. This has had a strong influence upon her husband, and has at times led him to move from excitement of feeling, when if he had waited and looked at matters calmly and weighed them properly, it would have been better for himself and for the church. Nothing is gained by moving hurriedly, moving from impulse, or from strong feeling.
Sister F moves from impulse, and finds fault, and has had too much to say against her brethren and sisters. This will cause confusion in any church. If she could control her own spirit, a great victory would be gained. If she would seek the heavenly adorning, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, calls of great price, she would then be a real help to the church. If she would cherish the spirit of Christ, and become a peacemaker, her own soul would flourish, and she would be a blessing to the church wherever she might be located. Unless she is converted and an entire change is wrought in her, unless she educates herself to be slow to speak and slow to wrath, and cultivates true Christian courtesy, her influence will prove injurious, and the happiness of others connected with her will suffer. She manifests an independence which is a damage to her and alienates her friends. This independence has caused her much trouble and has wounded her best friends.
If those who had means were close in their deal with her husband, and did not favor him more than worldlings in business transactions, she has felt and talked, and aroused feelings of dissatisfaction where none previously existed. This is a selfish world at best. Many of those who profess the truth are not sanctified by it, and may not have a heart to make even a trifling variation in the prices of produce when dealing with a poor brother, sooner than they would with an able worldling. They do not love their neighbors as themselves. It would be more pleasing to God were there less selfishness and more disinterested benevolence.
As Sister F has seen a selfish spirit manifest in deal, she has committed a greater sin by feeling and talking in regard to the matter as she has. She has erred in expecting too much. The tongue has been truly an unruly member, a world of iniquity, set on fire of hell, untamed and untamable. Sister F has had a spirit of retaliation, manifesting by her deportment that she was offended. This was all wrong. She has cherished bitter feelings, which are foreign to the spirit of Christ. Anger, resentment, and all kinds of unkind tempers are indulged by speaking against those with whom we are displeased, and by reciting the errors and failings and sins of neighbors. The lustful desires are gratified.
Sister F, if you are grieved because your neighbors or friends are doing wrong to their own hurt, if they are overtaken in fault, follow the Bible rule. "Tell him his fault between thee and him alone." As you go to the one you suppose to be in error, see that you speak in a meek and lowly spirit; for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. The erring can be restored in no other way than in the spirit of meekness, gentleness, and tender love. Be careful in your manner. Avoid anything in look or gesture, word or tone, that savors of pride or self-sufficiency. Guard yourself against a word or look that would exalt yourself, or place your goodness and righteousness in contrast with their failings. Beware of the most distant approach to disdain, overbearing, or contempt. With care avoid every appearance of anger; and though you use plainness of speech, let there be no reproach, no railing accusation, no token of warmth but that of earnest love. Above all, let there be no shadow of hate or ill will, no bitterness or sourness of expression. Nothing but kindness and gentleness can flow from a heart of love. Yet all these precious fruits need not hinder you from speaking in the most serious, solemn manner, as though angels were directing their eyes upon you, and you were acting in reference to the coming judgment. Bear in mind that the success of reproof depends greatly upon the spirit in which it is given. Do not neglect earnest prayer that you may possess a lowly mind, and that angels of God may go before you to work upon the hearts you are trying to reach, and so soften them by heavenly impressions that your efforts may avail. If any good is accomplished, take no credit to yourself. God alone should be exalted. God alone has done it all.
You have excused yourself for speaking evil of your brother or sister or neighbor to others before going to him and taking the steps which God has absolutely commanded. You say: "Why, I did not speak to anyone until I was so burdened that I could not refrain." What burdened you? Was it not a plain neglect of your own duty, of a thus saith the Lord? You were under the guilt of sin because you did not go and tell the offender his fault between you and him alone. If you did not do this, if you disobeyed God, how could you be otherwise than burdened unless your heart was hardened while you were trampling the command of God underfoot, and in your heart hating your brother or neighbor? And what way have you found to unburden yourself? God reproves you for a sin of omission in not telling your brother his fault, and you excuse and comfort yourself by a sin of commission by telling your brother's faults to another person! Is this the right way to purchase ease--by committing sin?
All your efforts to save the erring may be unavailing. They may repay you evil for good. They may be enraged rather than convinced. What if they hear to no good purpose, and pursue the evil course they have begun? This will frequently occur. Sometimes the mildest and tenderest reproof will have no good effect. In that case the blessing you wanted another to receive by pursuing a course of righteousness, ceasing to do evil and learning to do well, will return into your own bosom. If the erring persist in sin, treat them kindly, and leave them with your heavenly Father. You have delivered your soul; their sin no longer rests upon you; you are not now partaker of their sin. But if they perish, their blood is upon their own head.
Dear friend, an entire transformation must take place in you, or you will be weighed in the balance and found wanting. The church at -----, especially talking women, have a lesson to learn. "If any man [or woman] among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain." Many will be weighed in the balance and found wanting in this matter of so great importance. Where are the Christians who walk by this rule? who will take God's part against the evilspeaker? who will please God, and set a watch, a continual watch, before the mouth, and keep the door of the lips? Speak evil of no man. Hear evil of no man. If there be no hearers, there will be no speakers of evil. If anyone speaks evil in your presence, check him. Refuse to hear him, though his manner be ever so soft and his accents mild. He may profess attachment, and yet throw out covert hints and stab the character in the dark.
Resolutely refuse to hear, though the whisperer complains of being burdened till he speak. Burdened indeed! with a cursed secret which separateth very friends. Go, burdened ones, and free yourselves from your burden in God's appointed way. First go tell your brother his fault between you and him alone. If this fail, next take with you one or two friends, and tell him in their presence. If these steps fail, then tell it to the church. Not an unbeliever is to be made acquainted with the slightest particular of the matter. Telling it to the church is the last step to be taken. Publish it not to the enemies of our faith. They have no right to the knowledge of church matters, lest the weakness and errors of Christ's followers be exposed.
Those who are preparing for the coming of Christ should be sober and watch unto prayer, for our adversary, the devil, goeth about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour; whom we are to resist steadfast in the faith. "He that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and His ears are open unto their prayers.
Sabbath Blessings..
Amen, my brother... :amen:
That is what we need to pray that we understand, and that Christ's love clear out all of this hate, anger and feelings of revenge.......Its not what Christians should be doing, to say nothing of Adventist brothers and sisters..........
Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story? I'm bolding some specific words in several of your quotesI got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up. Did Danny launch an investigation into who was allegedly picking on the poor mayor, trying to scare the old man out of his wits and intimidate him?
You were questioned by anyman - btw, welcome anyman - and you carefully drew attention to the source of your story about the former mayor:Please note again what I said:I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up.
Then, under further questioning, you say:
To tell you the truth, Danny "told" me about the mayor. At least, that's what I recall.
And I believe you got that wrong. From what I could tell, he likes 3ABN.
That's the way rumors and gossip get started. People assume this or that instead of sticking with what was said.
So now you have made it sound like Danny "told" you the story about the mayor. Was he the source of your story or did you also personally speak to the former mayor of Thompsonville?
Your next statement further confuses the issue for me:Habanero, yes, the appellate court said something like that.
But it was in the administrative hearing that Danny spoke about the mayor, from what I recall.
So, does this mean that you read Danny's testimony from the administrative hearing and he told the story about Mike Riva sending a letter to the former mayor of Thompsonville?
Did the former mayor of Thompsonville actually tell you this story personally, as you stated at least twice or did you "speak" to him via recorded testimony? I really would like to clearly understand this matter.
IMO, facts can be much more effective if initially stated in a straightforward manner. The evidence can create a far more powerful witness if it doesn't appear manipulated or contrived.
Thank you for those question Nettie as I had the exact same. Twice Mr. Pickle says "the mayor told him" Then it went to "actually Danny told him" then it went to "what Danny said in transcripts". What is going on here?
Well!
Reddogs, anyman, Ian, and Sam all teaming up to take Advent Talk over to the "dark side".
I wonder how many others will be crawling out of the woodwork!
Well!
Reddogs, anyman, Ian, and Sam all teaming up to take Advent Talk over to the "dark side".
I wonder how many others will be crawling out of the woodwork!
It is a bit of a burden to have to plow through all those loooong, sanctimonious posts.
Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
Perhaps the influx of new members just shows this is getting to be a popular meeting place.
Welcome to each of you!!! Have some freshly baked cookies and warm welcome hugs.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/PeacefulBe/plateofcookies.jpg)
Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story?
Thank you for those question Nettie as I had the exact same. Twice Mr. Pickle says "the mayor told him" Then it went to "actually Danny told him" then it went to "what Danny said in transcripts". What is going on here?
I also would like to voice my thoughts here.
Mr. Pickle, I am new here and really don't approve if getting into a tit for tat but, in reading your posts I believe your actions, your defense of your actions, and all the allegations that you just throw out to the public, without proof, speak loudly of your motives and character. You are throwing out names and alleged sins (even you yourself keep using the word "alleged") that you have not eyewitnessed or been a party to at all. You are repeating what you have heard from others which clearly is the definition of gossip.
1) Let us correct the record and point out that the allegations made are allegations we can document, have corroborated statements or are specific statements "UNDER OATH";
2) The Bible is full of anthology clearly making public the sins of many, and for multiple purposes;
3) Mr Pickle offered to have an ecclesiatical process and 3ABN's answer was a Federal Lawsuite, a clearly brilliant move for one concerned about keeping their sins in the closet;
4) Repeating what you have heard from reliable sources is not the definition of gossip, it is history, journalism and a critical means by which the record is preserved for us all to learn from. Is the entire Bible just a bunch of gossip?
5)Your statements are pure conjecture!!! They have absolutely no known foundation and if you have unsupported allegations that you are aware of, you specify what they are and we will PROVE IT or correct the record!!!
Both by Mrs. White and the word. Yet, when this is brought to your attention, you defend yourself by throwing out even more "allegations" against those involved with 3abn. Have you ever considered, for even one minute, the lives, reputations, and the families you could be destroying if you have been given wrong or inaccurate information? From what I read most of the people you have contacted for your information are people that have bones to pick with 3abn, Danny or his family. It is fairly obvious that some of those same people are using you as their tool to seek revenge and payback for situations they were not happy with.
1) I do not recall the statement of sources, therefore upon what basis would you declare such an egregious prevarication?
2) Are you aware of all the reputations and lives that have been ruined by the various actons of Danny Lee Shelton, Tommy Ray Shelton and other officers and directors of 3ABN???
3) Again, I challenge you to identify just what information you would like to declare "inaccurate" so we can freely discuss them...but be careful, you may get what you want, PROOF!!!
EGW says that even if we see something with our own eyes we are not to repeat it, but to go to that person with love and compassion and discuss it with them alone. She goes on to say, that before you to them (if you have eyewitnessed something) that you must love them enough to give your life for them. Otherwise the motives belong to you and not to God. If you are not an eyewitness you have greatly sinned by repeating and making public what you have been told.
1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
2) I repeat yet again, your statement is not biblical...for example the most notable is found in Matthew 18: 15, 16 and 17 and look very closely at the last verse, something the church and the blind Laodicean repeatedly fails to see or apply...and that is unbiblical!!!
3) If you are aware of sin in the camp, you have GREATLY SINNED NOT TO PURGE THE CAMP IF THE PARTY IS UNREPENTANT, in fact you are complicit in the infection of the entire camp by failing to isolate and purge.
I will take my chances with vigilance!!!
I believe that you, Mr. Pickle, are being used as a weapon by those who seek revenge against 3abn. By repeating what you yourself call "allegations" and making them public, you are accountable to God almighty for the destruction that you are undoubtedly causing. You may trust the people that have given you the information. You may believe everything that you have been told. But, by making it public without proof (or even with proof) you are going against the very ethics that make up christianity.
I believe you are being used as a detractor from obvious sin and are complicit in the hiding of those sins. Your accountability for failing to go to the perpetrators and calling for their humble confession and public reformation is an abominatin before God. And the Bible is full of those examples. Their soles are in your very hands and you have a Christian Duty to them. Go, therefore, and bring them to repentance before you become the most accountable. And that is BIBLICAL
Mr. Pickle. If, down the road you find out that many of the accusations you have made against these people are false....what will you do then? How will you repair their lives, families, reputations, etc? How can you ever make it right?
And, Sam, what will you do when you have to face the reality of your inaction when you are sitting in judgement for a thousand years and see just what your inaction may have done to the souls of the perpatrators becuase you deliberately refused to bring them to confession and reformation? ANd what of the souls of the victims?
That would assume that you were not "left behind", the most cruel penalty of all. So, Sam, look carefully at the evidence and do what you should have already done and then come back here and apologize, after you have done your God Given Duty.
Please, for a change, don't answer here by throwing out more allegations. You only hurt your own reputation by doing so.
If we were concerned for our reputation, we would have remained silent as you have done. We are concerned for the reputation of the victims and for the souls of perpetrators and victims. Therefore, we challenge you to take up the just cause and bring the perpetrators to a just confession and reformation that we may all find unity in the Spirit.
It is now your unqualified calling and your failure will not go un-noticed!!!.
Gailon Arthur Joy
I believe that you, Mr. Pickle, are being used as a weapon by those who seek revenge against 3abn.
Mr. Pickle. If, down the road you find out that many of the accusations you have made against these people are false....what will you do then?
Well!
Reddogs, anyman, Ian, and Sam all teaming up to take Advent Talk over to the "dark side".
I wonder how many others will be crawling out of the woodwork!
I wondered how long it would be before more 'Danny-clones' would come out of the woodwork. There's been quite a number of people join in a very short time, I've noticed. :dogwag:
Well!
Reddogs, anyman, Ian, and Sam all teaming up to take Advent Talk over to the "dark side".
I wonder how many others will be crawling out of the woodwork!
I wondered how long it would be before more 'Danny-clones' would come out of the woodwork. There's been quite a number of people join in a very short time, I've noticed. :dogwag:
I challenge everyone here to welcome the "Danny Clones" with open arms. They have souls to save as well and must be brought to see the light. To be as clear as possible, they need to be converted.
Every challenge needs to be met with direct responses clearly stating the evidence to support the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Just as the Tax case turns out to be full of evidence that has been ignored for years, our evidence continues to pile up and is ignored by Laodiceans everywhere.
People, hand them the eysalve that they may see...it is your Christian Duty!!! Take it seriously and answer their inquires logically and persuasively and with evidence when it is needed. Nothing like evidence to bring one to conversion!!!
Remember, the world is watching and inquiring minds need to know the truth!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Bob Pickle said - - - I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up.
so what, some one called you and said that the mayor down there might not like 3ABN and you just picked up the phone and called him and said Hey I don't like 3ABn have they done anything to you that you didn't like? And he shared that story with you, about a letter and someone banging on his house? Did he agree to give a signed affidavit to you so you can use it? maybe I 'll give him a call and see if he will tell me the same thing.
GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
Bob Pickle said - - - I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up.
so what, some one called you and said that the mayor down there might not like 3ABN and you just picked up the phone and called him and said Hey I don't like 3ABn have they done anything to you that you didn't like? And he shared that story with you, about a letter and someone banging on his house? Did he agree to give a signed affidavit to you so you can use it? maybe I 'll give him a call and see if he will tell me the same thing.
Now here is an intelligent response...call him and then be sure to post what he won't tell you until you go and visit, face to face across the table. By the way, it is illegal to record a conversation in the state of Illinois so you will need your shorthand, a notepad and pencil.
For the record, it is not the first or the last "intimidation tactic" utilized by the Shelton's to discourage dissent from what they wanted. Just ask Johann and a rather long list of other interviews I have conducted over the past eighteen months. Better yet, just ask employees such as HOTY, etc.
Yes, 3ABN is an example of Christian Broadcasting at its very intimidating best!!! Programming is generally pretty good, but the managment has been less than what we would have desired...but then the evidence is right there in Federal Court!!!
Now, out of curiosity, if this interview was done in a face to face conversation with the mayor and if a former director of 3ABN was there to witness the conversation, would that be enough verasity for you or are you just another blind man that cannot hear? Or would the copy of the Riva letter better serve your purposes? Just what will constitute proof for you...if anything?
By the way, much cheaper to get a flight to St Louis and rent a car to travel into Thompsonville, than it is to take the puddle jumper to tri-county.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Sounds like you and Bob are getting a lot of good documentation, Gailon!
GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
But then, if Danny's watchman are so concerned about the outcome of this entire sickening saga, of course, we can expect to see piles of dirt and rubbish being served up as entree. I believe that the main course and dessert are yet to follow.
Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
Bob Pickle said - - - I got to talk with the former mayor of Thompsonville. He told me that after Mike Riva sent him that nasty letter, someone would bang on his house every night and wake him up.
so what, some one called you and said that the mayor down there might not like 3ABN and you just picked up the phone and called him and said Hey I don't like 3ABn have they done anything to you that you didn't like? And he shared that story with you, about a letter and someone banging on his house? Did he agree to give a signed affidavit to you so you can use it? maybe I 'll give him a call and see if he will tell me the same thing.
Now here is an intelligent response...call him and then be sure to post what he won't tell you until you go and visit, face to face across the table. By the way, it is illegal to record a conversation in the state of Illinois so you will need your shorthand, a notepad and pencil.
For the record, it is not the first or the last "intimidation tactic" utilized by the Shelton's to discourage dissent from what they wanted. Just ask Johann and a rather long list of other interviews I have conducted over the past eighteen months. Better yet, just ask employees such as HOTY, etc.
Yes, 3ABN is an example of Christian Broadcasting at its very intimidating best!!! Programming is generally pretty good, but the managment has been less than what we would have desired...but then the evidence is right there in Federal Court!!!
Now, out of curiosity, if this interview was done in a face to face conversation with the mayor and if a former director of 3ABN was there to witness the conversation, would that be enough verasity for you or are you just another blind man that cannot hear? Or would the copy of the Riva letter better serve your purposes? Just what will constitute proof for you...if anything?
By the way, much cheaper to get a flight to St Louis and rent a car to travel into Thompsonville, than it is to take the puddle jumper to tri-county.
Gailon Arthur Joy
GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
I said he would answer my questions with more accusations and that is exactly what he did. Looking at previous posts I see it is a pattern.
Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
I'm sorry. Maybe you did not read all of Mr. Pickles posts and how his story changed each time he was questioned. I'm afraid a child would question the different variations that were given. It certainly makes one stop and think that if he could change a minute story that many times, what will he do with something bigger?
For those who like to name call. I take offense to being called a Dannyclone simply because I think Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy have been less than honest and ethical in their actions. Obviously to your way of thinking, if you agree with Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy then you are PickledJoy clones? I haven't read where those that share my opinion have resorted to name calling because you have a different opinion. It is childish, false and unproductive to any discussion.
GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
I said he would answer my questions with more accusations and that is exactly what he did. Looking at previous posts I see it is a pattern.
Perhaps you'd like to take care of the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine. If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
Bob, I pondered on the questions asked as well as your answers. The various forms your answers took raised further questions which led me to ask for the clarification. I would not have done so if I could have figured out the bottom line from what was there in print. The form or manner of communication one chooses to use plays largely in the grasp, the depth of understanding for those on the receiving end of said communication. Should you wish to be clearly understood, communicate with clarity. If you prefer to leave questions.... well, you know what to do.Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story?
Part of the confusion has resulted because my answers fit the questions I was asked. Look at the questions I was asked and look at my answers, and it should be fairly clear what I meant by what I said. Try not to read anymore into what I wrote than what I wrote.
Bob, I pondered on the questions asked as well as your answers. The various forms your answers took raised further questions which led me to ask for the clarification. I would not have done so if I could have figured out the bottom line from what was there in print. The form or manner of communication one chooses to use plays largely in the grasp, the depth of understanding for those on the receiving end of said communication. Should you wish to be clearly understood, communicate with clarity. If you prefer to leave questions.... well, you know what to do.
I would appreciate it if you could simply answer the following question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.
Did the former mayor of Thompsonville personally (phone, personal letter, email, fax, face-to-face) tell you the story that you shared with us?
Thanks
Not preaching at all there Ms. Snoopy. but it is a bit strange you moderating a forum on an adventist web site when you don't agree with the things adventists believe. Are you taking out your frustrations on 3ABN? I read somewhere that anything you do is no one's fault but your own, something about being critters of free will and no one being able to make you do anything you don't choose to do.Perhaps you'd like to take care of the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine. If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
Wow, Anyman, that is an interesting accusation you have leveled against them here. Did you interview them and take notes? Did you visit them and record the conversation? Did you get signed affidavits? Oh, you said "It seems." So perhaps you are subtly suggesting that they are subtly suggesting something?
Also, have you noticed people talking about "following Jesus' example?" Does that imply that they are subtly suggesting that they are Gods and saviours on a par with Jesus?GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story?
Part of the confusion has resulted because my answers fit the questions I was asked. Look at the questions I was asked and look at my answers, and it should be fairly clear what I meant by what I said. Try not to read anymore into what I wrote than what I wrote.
Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story?
Part of the confusion has resulted because my answers fit the questions I was asked. Look at the questions I was asked and look at my answers, and it should be fairly clear what I meant by what I said. Try not to read anymore into what I wrote than what I wrote.
That's as clear as mud...
There appears to be alot of different things being discussed or brought up in this thread which was started on the topic of Gossip and hearsay. The effect is somewhat confusing and chaotic, at least to me.
Would it be possible to at least get all the posts having to do with the ex- Mayor of Thompsonville story moved to it's own thread?
ADMIN HAT ON
Anyman,
You WILL refrain from name calling, and you will address other posters appropriately. I have edited your post accordingly.
ADMIN HAT OFF
no need to take any notes there Mr. Pickle. They keep just writing them out themselves now don't ya see. A person doens't have to go talk to them cause they just keep doing it in public. as for the following Jesus example thing. Well I suppose that someone might take the angle if you read the papers it seems Oprah is doing it so I'm thinking some people do it. Of course anyone who doesn't fancy themselves more important that God's word wouldn't do so. Think I remember the whole problem with Lucifer was he was jealous that God didn't let him in on the creation and started to think more of himself than he should have.Wow, Anyman, that is an interesting accusation you have leveled against them here. Did you interview them and take notes? Did you visit them and record the conversation? Did you get signed affidavits? Oh, you said "It seems." So perhaps you are subtly suggesting that they are subtly suggesting something?
Also, have you noticed people talking about "following Jesus' example?" Does that imply that they are subtly suggesting that they are Gods and saviours on a par with Jesus?GAJoy said, 1) I would like the quote from EG White to support that short sighted tale!!! Mrs White wrote how many letters that have been published over the years to point out the sins of the church and specific individuals? Something we have unfortunately set aside. If we had done that in the Davenport Affair as we were suppose to do, we probably would have avoided a few more stewardship messes, including 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton, (See Who Watches? Who Cares pgs 55 to 108 for documentation);
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White. As if they concider themselves the same as someone who was a real prophet and called by God to do his work. That would seem like a dangerously bold thing to claim.
It is also weird that when they are presented with a question they do a lot of macho bragging and finger pointing. The Mr. Pickle guy also seems to go on and on about just one issue. It would make a reader wonder if he has some experiences in his past that cuased him pain and this is a way to deal with it.
Anyman...
Please point out EXACTLY where you saw me say that I "don't agree with the things adventists believe." And by the way...the term "Adventist" is a proper noun and really should be capitalized. Now, what I don't agree with is the way many Adventists ACT...starting right there in Thompsonville!!! If Danny Shelton is the "face of Adventism"...then I'll go non-denominational!! Oh yeah - 3ABN IS non-denominational... Oh my - I get so confused...Not preaching at all there Ms. Snoopy. but it is a bit strange you moderating a forum on an adventist web site when you don't agree with the things adventists believe. Are you taking out your frustrations on 3ABN? I read somewhere that anything you do is no one's fault but your own, something about being critters of free will and no one being able to make you do anything you don't choose to do.Perhaps you'd like to take care of the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine. If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
No. I don't see why that is necessary at all. Reddogs started a thread to discuss gossip and hear-say. Now several of you are attacking Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy for alleged gossip and hear-say. I think this is a perfect place for this discussion to take place.
[/quote]Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story?
Part of the confusion has resulted because my answers fit the questions I was asked. Look at the questions I was asked and look at my answers, and it should be fairly clear what I meant by what I said. Try not to read anymore into what I wrote than what I wrote.
That's as clear as mud...
There appears to be alot of different things being discussed or brought up in this thread which was started on the topic of Gossip and hearsay. The effect is somewhat confusing and chaotic, at least to me.
Would it be possible to at least get all the posts having to do with the ex- Mayor of Thompsonville story moved to it's own thread?
I'm not sure but let me check did you say this, "If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!"? I think that is looking like you don't believe cause why would you believe in something that your turned off about? It seems strange that you seem to be put out by someone preaching Adventism at a site that claims to be Adventist.Anyman...
Please point out EXACTLY where you saw me say that I "don't agree with the things adventists believe." And by the way...the term "Adventist" is a proper noun and really should be capitalized. Now, what I don't agree with is the way many Adventists ACT...starting right there in Thompsonville!!! If Danny Shelton is the "face of Adventism"...then I'll go non-denominational!! Oh yeah - 3ABN IS non-denominational... Oh my - I get so confused...Not preaching at all there Ms. Snoopy. but it is a bit strange you moderating a forum on an adventist web site when you don't agree with the things adventists believe. Are you taking out your frustrations on 3ABN? I read somewhere that anything you do is no one's fault but your own, something about being critters of free will and no one being able to make you do anything you don't choose to do.Perhaps you'd like to take care of the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine. If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
[/quote]No. I don't see why that is necessary at all. Reddogs started a thread to discuss gossip and hear-say. Now several of you are attacking Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy for alleged gossip and hear-say. I think this is a perfect place for this discussion to take place.
Fine, but please get your facts straight. I have attacked no one, all I did was post some questions I had, and then quote some texts and an article which is relevant to this topic.
BTW, just wondering but is calling people "Dannyclones" name calling?Bob, could I get just a bit of clarification about the former mayor of Thompsonville story?
Part of the confusion has resulted because my answers fit the questions I was asked. Look at the questions I was asked and look at my answers, and it should be fairly clear what I meant by what I said. Try not to read anymore into what I wrote than what I wrote.
That's as clear as mud...
There appears to be alot of different things being discussed or brought up in this thread which was started on the topic of Gossip and hearsay. The effect is somewhat confusing and chaotic, at least to me.
Would it be possible to at least get all the posts having to do with the ex- Mayor of Thompsonville story moved to it's own thread?
I'm not sure but let me check did you say this, "If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!"? I think that is looking like you don't believe cause why would you believe in something that your turned off about? It seems strange that you seem to be put out by someone preaching Adventism at a site that claims to be Adventist.Anyman...
Please point out EXACTLY where you saw me say that I "don't agree with the things adventists believe." And by the way...the term "Adventist" is a proper noun and really should be capitalized. Now, what I don't agree with is the way many Adventists ACT...starting right there in Thompsonville!!! If Danny Shelton is the "face of Adventism"...then I'll go non-denominational!! Oh yeah - 3ABN IS non-denominational... Oh my - I get so confused...Not preaching at all there Ms. Snoopy. but it is a bit strange you moderating a forum on an adventist web site when you don't agree with the things adventists believe. Are you taking out your frustrations on 3ABN? I read somewhere that anything you do is no one's fault but your own, something about being critters of free will and no one being able to make you do anything you don't choose to do.Perhaps you'd like to take care of the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine. If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
A thinking person might wonder if the differing brands of Adventism are a part of that issue. The 3ABN brand might be offensive to some people who find the versions outside that compound and its network acceptable. But that is just person opinions and questions.I'm not sure but let me check did you say this, "If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!"? I think that is looking like you don't believe cause why would you believe in something that your turned off about? It seems strange that you seem to be put out by someone preaching Adventism at a site that claims to be Adventist.Anyman...
Please point out EXACTLY where you saw me say that I "don't agree with the things adventists believe." And by the way...the term "Adventist" is a proper noun and really should be capitalized. Now, what I don't agree with is the way many Adventists ACT...starting right there in Thompsonville!!! If Danny Shelton is the "face of Adventism"...then I'll go non-denominational!! Oh yeah - 3ABN IS non-denominational... Oh my - I get so confused...Not preaching at all there Ms. Snoopy. but it is a bit strange you moderating a forum on an adventist web site when you don't agree with the things adventists believe. Are you taking out your frustrations on 3ABN? I read somewhere that anything you do is no one's fault but your own, something about being critters of free will and no one being able to make you do anything you don't choose to do.Perhaps you'd like to take care of the log in your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine. If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!Sounds like the Word and reading it makes some uncomfortble which is a little strange considering this is a place is suppose to be where people who believe in it gather to talk. The pharasiess didn't like the Word either, made them uncomfortble.
A thinking person might wonder if the differing brands of Adventism are a part of that issue. The 3ABN brand might be offensive to some people who find the versions outside that compound and its network acceptable. But that is just person opinions and questions.
I'm thinking anyman is sounding very familiar...like I may have read his writings in a prior life...
Facts are fine, thanks. I did not say "you" specifically, Ian...I said "several of you"...
As for your name calling concerns, anyman was purposely and abusively twisting/misusing a specific poster's moniker.
No. I don't see why that is necessary at all. Reddogs started a thread to discuss gossip and hear-say. Now several of you are attacking Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy for alleged gossip and hear-say. I think this is a perfect place for this discussion to take place.
Fine, but please get your facts straight. I have attacked no one, all I did was post some questions I had, and then quote some texts and an article which is relevant to this topic.
BTW, just wondering but is calling people "Dannyclones" name calling?
I'm not sure but let me check did you say this, "If you're trying to preach Adventism to me here, don't bother...3ABN has already turned me off!!!"? I think that is looking like you don't believe cause why would you believe in something that your turned off about? It seems strange that you seem to be put out by someone preaching Adventism at a site that claims to be Adventist.
Amen, my brother... :amen:
That is what we need to pray that we understand, and that Christ's love clear out all of this hate, anger and feelings of revenge.......Its not what Christians should be doing, to say nothing of Adventist brothers and sisters..........
No problem, I didn't write it I just quoted it, God's truth and principles remain constant, it's our own decision how we choose to deal with it.
IMO We need to keep reminding ourselves of these things, and "pray without ceasing" it's far too easy to go astray, or lose sight of the Lord, and which way we're trying to go, and who and what we are following when we don't.
Your Sister ;)
Ian
Well!
Reddogs, anyman, Ian, and Sam all teaming up to take Advent Talk over to the "dark side".
I wonder how many others will be crawling out of the woodwork!
Interesting to note those who've joined AT in the last little while and the tone and content of their posts.
I am really getting old and loosing my sight to miss that my sister...
All the Ian's I know are young rugged strapping soccer players from Australia or Scotland....do you play?
Now to address the issues being raised, the OP is how Christians should refrain from idol gossip and harmful hearsay and deal with these types issues such as the 3ABN according to bible principles.
I dont have a dog in this fight in 3ABN as I dont know Danny or Linda,
and 3ABN is not required viewing in our part of the world....
We are busy doing Gods work, helping build 3 Adventist churches, a Adventist church school, find a way for 30-40 under privilidge children to get financing to go to the school, and share Gods truth with others ...
But I am clear of what scripture says about quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, malicious gossip, arrogance and disorder amoung Christians. We must stay away from all of those things and deal with our brothers and sisters directly as outlined in scripture with much love and care. As a sinner I cannot cast any stones but as a child of God I come and ask that look at what scripture says and follow it, rather than let evil capture us through our emotions and lead it to its domain.....
Love God, Love your fellowman and focus on Christ and what He commands.....
John 13:
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
John 15:
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Romans 12:10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Ephesians 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1 Peter 3:8 Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1 John 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
You are honestly claiming that saying "several of you" to me doesn't include me in what you said? and then you ignore my question and justify your problem with anyman and chiles Habaneros en Escabeche instead, and claim I am the one concerned with namecalling?
:ROFL:
Ok, moving on...
Will try to sort through all this confusion and see what to answer or not tomorrow...
Good night Snoopy.No. I don't see why that is necessary at all. Reddogs started a thread to discuss gossip and hear-say. Now several of you are attacking Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy for alleged gossip and hear-say. I think this is a perfect place for this discussion to take place.
Fine, but please get your facts straight. I have attacked no one, all I did was post some questions I had, and then quote some texts and an article which is relevant to this topic.
BTW, just wondering but is calling people "Dannyclones" name calling?
People ask me why I am here if I disagree with gossip and hearsay, and slander. Some again here in this thread, which is why I am answering you here rather thean them (I apologise, but it's easier for me to avoid unnecessary arguments this way) The answer is obvious to me. What is done and said publicly needs to be answered publicly, that's a biblical principle too.IAN
Apologies, Ian. It was late for me when I made that post, but you're right - I was responding to you.
Ian,
The civil side is a such a pleasant side it is wonderful to see the real Ian we just knew had to be behind that facade of indifference toward such clear error.
Gailon Arthur Joy
It sure seems that this Joy and Pickle guys are trying to subtly suggest they are the same as Ellen White.
Maybe you did not read all of Mr. Pickles posts and how his story changed each time he was questioned.
I would appreciate it if you could simply answer the following question. A simple "yes" or "no" will do.
Did the former mayor of Thompsonville personally (phone, personal letter, email, fax, face-to-face) tell you the story that you shared with us?
But I am clear of what scripture says about quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, malicious gossip, arrogance and disorder amoung Christians.
It seems strange that you seem to be put out by someone preaching Adventism at a site that claims to be Adventist.
But I am clear of what scripture says about quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, malicious gossip, arrogance and disorder amoung Christians.
Super. Give Danny and 3ABN a call, and plead with them to follow biblical principles, to apologize to Glenn Dryden and the rest, to Linda Shelton, to Jean Fiscalini, to Duane Clem, to Alyssa Moore, to Gailon and myself, to Mable Dunbar, to Barbara Kerr, wherever wrongs have been done to these folks.
And plead with them to drop this stupid, frivolous lawsuit which was conceived as a way to retaliate against those who blew the whistle about Danny's abominable, ungodly, and reprehensible handling of the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations.
Really, how can 3ABN's pursuing of a lawsuit originally intended to defend an alleged pedophile bring glory to God?
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera. Evil has toppled what once was a Christian show, it is obvious that pride and arrogance has crept in and destroyed what once spread Gods truth and snuffed out what was a shinning light. Anger, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, has now replaced what is being spread, with many here have been clearly affected and are in the grasp of evil and need to turn to God and pray to be released from its grip.much suffering all around,
For He is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and mercy, ready to listen to your prayer to cleanse and keep you from this evil, I can say this from experience.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
It is beginning to feel a whole lot like "Old Home WeeK" on adventtalk. Seems some would be more comfortable staying where there are not so mnay evil people,and lasciviousness conduct
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera. Evil has toppled what once was a Christian show, it is obvious that pride and arrogance has crept in and destroyed what once spread Gods truth and snuffed out what was a shinning light. Anger, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, has now replaced what is being spread, with many here have been clearly affected and are in the grasp of evil and need to turn to God and pray to be released from its grip.much suffering all around,
For He is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and mercy, ready to listen to your prayer to cleanse and keep you from this evil, I can say this from experience.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
Yes. Indeed God is a loving and forgiving God, but your statement that "many here have been clearly affected and are in the grasp of evil... need to turn to God..." sounds very much like a value judgement that you have made, that those who have and continue to work so hard to purge 3abn and the Church of such evil, is something you seem to suggest, should just be brushed under the carpet. Every one get on being lovely-dovey and pretend you don't see evil and everything goes on as before - with child molestation, diddling the books etc and everyone should just keep quiet and leave it to God to sort out?
Is that what you are inferring? If so, we're not talking about the same God, because I believe that He holds us all accountable to do what we can to stamp out that kind of behaviour and certainly not turn our backs on it and pretend it doesn't exist.
I have not judge anyone, their own words give testament to the pain, suffering and anger that they are experiencing.........
QuoteI have not judge anyone, their own words give testament to the pain, suffering and anger that they are experiencing.........
No, the followng is a value judgement you have passed. Unless the Lord has spoken directly to you "to point out sins"
and this time to forgo your oft repeated BIBLICAL advice to write all sins quietly in the sand.
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera. Evil has toppled what once was a Christian show, it is obvious that pride and arrogance has crept in and destroyed what once spread Gods truth and snuffed out what was a shinning light. Anger, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, has now replaced what is being spread, with much suffering all around, many here have been clearly affected and are in the grasp of evil and need to turn to God and pray to be released from its grip. For He is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and mercy, ready to listen to your prayer to cleanse and keep you from this evil, I can say this from experience.
In my past experience with you the only opinion that is a sin to hold is that someone other than you have an opinion of right and wrong. Unless of course we are sitting on the same level as you and have strong opinions against those that disagree with that.
You have failed to mention or respond to those here you consider guilty of blasphemy. I am pretty sure I understand that word, but would like you to explain if you wouldn't mind. Isn't to blaspheme generally thought of to speak impiously or irrevently of God or sacred things?
Can you explain further how that relates to DS and 3ABN. Quite a lofty level you attribute
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.
I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.
I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.
Question: Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?End of story? probably not...
Answer in a nutshell: No.
Question: Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?
Answer in a nutshell: No.
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.
I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.
This is the problem. Mixing and confusion. And putting words into the mouths of others, and attacking them for what you say they say..
Rebuking sin or reproving error, and gossip and talebearing ( which is called evil speaking) are not the same thing! One when done in love is righteous, the other is NOT.
Yes we are to reprove error, and rebuke sin, yes we are to get rid of sin in the camp, BUT ONLY AS DEFINED IN THE WORD OF GOD, according to clearly defined steps and principles!
To do what is forbidden (Talebearing) and call it rebuking sin; or publish things to the world, and enemies of our faith, and call it taking it to the Church, or getting rid of sin in the camp. is deception plain and simple.
It seems to me there is a defensiveness here in arguing against the plain and simple bible texts and spirit of prophecy quotes, or there is a look they did it but not me attitude and finger pointing.
Folks, we can't justify ourselves. The end doesn't justify the means.
We are going to be judged by our own words and actions.
Now either they represent our faith or they do not, but in my opinion we all need to examine ourselves in this regard and stop pointing fingers at each other or attempting to justify ourselves.
Only Christ can do that.
All should be able to easily say as Daryl did:QuoteQuestion: Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?End of story? probably not...
Answer in a nutshell: No.
If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, ...
... but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both.
This is the problem. Mixing and confusion. And putting words into the mouths of others, and attacking them for what you say they say..
...
To do what is forbidden (Talebearing) and call it rebuking sin; or publish things to the world, and enemies of our faith, and call it taking it to the Church, or getting rid of sin in the camp. is deception plain and simple.
This is the problem. Mixing and confusion. And putting words into the mouths of others, and attacking them for what you say they say..
...
To do what is forbidden (Talebearing) and call it rebuking sin; or publish things to the world, and enemies of our faith, and call it taking it to the Church, or getting rid of sin in the camp. is deception plain and simple.
So when John the Baptist called that generation a generation of vipers in a public meeting with Gentiles present, and when Elijah prayed that it would not rain, that wasn't publishing it to the world?
And how was that putting any words into reddogs mouth? Has he expressed any outrage at all for Danny Shelton's covering up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton? Has he expressed any outrage over 3ABN filing a lawsuit in retaliation for blowing the whistle, instead of meeting with us as we requested in order to shar4e mutual concerns?
Now if he does not express outrage at any of that but instead expresses outrage against speaking out against such things, and attributes such speaking out to anger, hurt, and arrogance, does that not leave the impression that he may also have a problem with the biblical accounts of the extremely public rebukes of John the Baptist and Elijah?
Just to make it crystal clear to all, Danny Shelton sued us in federal court. He opted out of a more private process of an ASI tribunal. He dragged all the issues outlined in his lawsuit into the very public sphere of a federal court which thus involves judges and juries who are not members of our faith.
Notice carefully that Ian and reddogs have yet to express a negative opinion about Danny thus publishing all this garbage before the world.
Of course, it can be said that Danny tried to seal the case and thus make it private. But that isn't how the court system works, and one would think he and his lawyers would have known that.
This is the problem. Mixing and confusion. And putting words into the mouths of others, and attacking them for what you say they say..
...
To do what is forbidden (Talebearing) and call it rebuking sin; or publish things to the world, and enemies of our faith, and call it taking it to the Church, or getting rid of sin in the camp. is deception plain and simple.
So when John the Baptist called that generation a generation of vipers in a public meeting with Gentiles present, and when Elijah prayed that it would not rain, that wasn't publishing it to the world?
And how was that putting any words into reddogs mouth? Has he expressed any outrage at all for Danny Shelton's covering up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton? Has he expressed any outrage over 3ABN filing a lawsuit in retaliation for blowing the whistle, instead of meeting with us as we requested in order to shar4e mutual concerns?
Now if he does not express outrage at any of that but instead expresses outrage against speaking out against such things, and attributes such speaking out to anger, hurt, and arrogance, does that not leave the impression that he may also have a problem with the biblical accounts of the extremely public rebukes of John the Baptist and Elijah?
This is the problem. Mixing and confusion. And putting words into the mouths of others, and attacking them for what you say they say..
...
To do what is forbidden (Talebearing) and call it rebuking sin; or publish things to the world, and enemies of our faith, and call it taking it to the Church, or getting rid of sin in the camp. is deception plain and simple.
So when John the Baptist called that generation a generation of vipers in a public meeting with Gentiles present, and when Elijah prayed that it would not rain, that wasn't publishing it to the world?
And how was that putting any words into reddogs mouth? Has he expressed any outrage at all for Danny Shelton's covering up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton? Has he expressed any outrage over 3ABN filing a lawsuit in retaliation for blowing the whistle, instead of meeting with us as we requested in order to shar4e mutual concerns?
Now if he does not express outrage at any of that but instead expresses outrage against speaking out against such things, and attributes such speaking out to anger, hurt, and arrogance, does that not leave the impression that he may also have a problem with the biblical accounts of the extremely public rebukes of John the Baptist and Elijah?
Folks, what is plain to me is that Mr Pickle believes he is rebuking sin and reproving error in a righteous manner, and yet does not accept rebuke or reproof from another, and will not hear it, but only keeps casting blame on others.
This is the part where you leave them to God... as it's not on our hands or heads, but on his own.
Folks, what is plain to me is that Mr Pickle believes he is rebuking sin and reproving error in a righteous manner, and yet does not accept rebuke or reproof from another, and will not hear it, but only keeps casting blame on others.
This is the part where you leave them to God... as it's not on our hands or heads, but on his own.
If Danny is quilty, then God will judge, our job according to scripture is to bring it to the brother so that he may turn from his sin and have life....
1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
If Danny is quilty, then God will judge, our job according to scripture is to bring it to the brother so that he may turn from his sin and have life....
QuoteFolks, what is plain to me is that Mr Pickle believes he is rebuking sin and reproving error in a righteous manner, and yet does not accept rebuke or reproof from another, and will not hear it, but only keeps casting blame on others.
This is the part where you leave them to God... as it's not on our hands or heads, but on his own.
When do we get to the point that you take seriously, for yourself in rebuking sin and reproving error, that you leave it to God?QuoteIf Danny is quilty, then God will judge, our job according to scripture is to bring it to the brother so that he may turn from his sin and have life....
1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
I am sure most here remember the PTL mess and those that were for so long willing to leave it to God. Perhaps if James baker had true friends surrounding him in his endeavors, he would not have had the humiliating experience of free bed and board, compliments of MN.
His problems if I recall were allegations of sexual misconduct and misappropriating money given to PTL for specific reasons.
Think it can't happen to SDA's, think again. And that makes this everyone's business. IRS criminal investigations are not started on a whim or an anonymous complaint. By the time this officially begins, the IRS has something they can sink their teeth into.
It would be nice to see all financial records and money accounted for. 3ABN in the clear because of their willingness to be completely transparent as to what has occurred with money of others. What a refreshing change and what it could say about SDA's to have that knowledge. Instead, it is quite the opposite and doesn't appear a whole lot different than other org as this that have fallen amid public humiliation and ridicule
Most of this was in DS's hands to resolve quickly and in a transparent manner. Confidentiality is not a luxury or right that those that receive money from others or by solicitaion /donation have .
Those records should be readily available, regardless. All questions as to ethical standards should be apparant within those records and cause no reason to fear.
HIs lifestyle should reflect his stated salary. I don't care what the salary is as long as it is stated upfront in the records and he is within those means.
I do not donate to them or any org like this. I am not independently wealthy and need to achieve the most out of what I can do. That would not be watching untold thousands being spent trying to keep from producing records of financial activity.
That is why its called the "PTL mess", they took it out in the common street and it spread from there, instead of just the people that it concerned....
If Danny is quilty, then God will judge, our job according to scripture is to bring it to the brother so that he may turn from his sin and have life....
You just don't seem to get it. Danny filed suit in U.S. District Court, and his attorney got the judge to tell me that I can't bring anything to him anymore.
Danny made this super public by allowing Alyssa to be called a liar on a 3ABN broadcast, and by hosting a special tribute to his alleged pedophile brother, which, in the face of new allegations, was about as brazen as one can get.
Danny made it public.
Danny made it public.
He dared make it public to my neighbors using a network that is supposed to present the Adventist message in a positive way.
I'm still waiting to hear your outrage at his extreme lack of discretion.
We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.
does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.
but giving lurid details to strangers on the web is not rebuking, is not what a Christian should do, and does not help the brother or sister that has fallen into sin....
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.
I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.
Rebuking sin is one thing my brother, but what you are doing is venting in public for the lack of a better word not rebuking, and it is affecting you as it is plainly affecting others. If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both. If they do not accept a righteous rebuke, then we must address that. But always keep love in your heart for a brother or sister as they are still within the reach of God.....
Your brother in Christ
Red
We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.
So take care of this as you see fit according to bible principles, but giving lurid details to strangers on the web is not rebuking, is not what a Christian should do, and does not help the brother or sister that has fallen into sin....
Well then, Red, perhaps you could direct our attention to where you have made the same accusations and judments of Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, & 3ABN for their behaviors toward Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and so many others. You do sound like a reasonable man, so I am sure you are approaching each side of this ugly saga with an equal perspective.What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.
I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.
Rebuking sin is one thing my brother, but what you are doing is venting in public for the lack of a better word not rebuking, and it is affecting you as it is plainly affecting others. If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both. If they do not accept a righteous rebuke, then we must address that. But always keep love in your heart for a brother or sister as they are still within the reach of God.....
Your brother in Christ
Red
As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....
We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.
No, you don't get it. Danny sued. The suit is filed on PACER. PACER is on the world wide web. Everyone with an internet connection can read it. Danny did that.
Further, why don't you stop characterizing these things as rumor and hear say, unless you want to get specific about what your are referring to. It is not rumor and it is not hear say that Danny Shelton admitted that he divorced his wife without biblical grounds. It is also not rumor or hear say that he as yet not offered a public apology.
And it is not rumor or hearsay that Mike Riva stooped to the low, low, low, low level of threatening a non-Adventist pastor and a board of trustees for a non-Adventist Church with a lawsuit in order to silence concerns over allegations of child molestation. That right there ought to be grounds for immediate dismissal from the service of any supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. No attorney working on behalf of a denominational or supporting ministry entity of the Adventist Church should ever engage is such unbecoming, renegade behavior.
Further, if any supporting ministry dares hire an attorney to do such a disgraceful thing, their membership in ASI should immediately be in jeopardy, in my opinion.
We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.
No, you don't get it. Danny sued. The suit is filed on PACER. PACER is on the world wide web. Everyone with an internet connection can read it. Danny did that.
Further, why don't you stop characterizing these things as rumor and hear say, unless you want to get specific about what your are referring to. It is not rumor and it is not hear say that Danny Shelton admitted that he divorced his wife without biblical grounds. It is also not rumor or hear say that he as yet not offered a public apology.
And it is not rumor or hearsay that Mike Riva stooped to the low, low, low, low level of threatening a non-Adventist pastor and a board of trustees for a non-Adventist Church with a lawsuit in order to silence concerns over allegations of child molestation. That right there ought to be grounds for immediate dismissal from the service of any supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. No attorney working on behalf of a denominational or supporting ministry entity of the Adventist Church should ever engage is such unbecoming, renegade behavior.
Further, if any supporting ministry dares hire an attorney to do such a disgraceful thing, their membership in ASI should immediately be in jeopardy, in my opinion.
As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....
You mean like what Danny and Walt did to Linda over the airwaves and in a public mailing?? LIKE THAT? I totally agree!!!
Rebuking sin is one thing my brother, but what you are doing is venting in public for the lack of a better word not rebuking, and it is affecting you as it is plainly affecting others. If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both. If they do not accept a righteous rebuke, then we must address that. But always keep love in your heart for a brother or sister as they are still within the reach of God.....
Your brother in Christ
Red
As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....
That my brother is were the rubber meets the road, do we follow what evil others do and let it control us, or what Christ asked us to follow.........?
That my brother is were the rubber meets the road, do we follow what evil others do and let it control us, or what Christ asked us to follow.........?
I assure you, I have not followed their evil example by sending nasty letters to silence those concerned about child molestation allegations. Nor have I engaged in private inurement. Nor have I trashed my family on globally televised broadcasts.
That my brother is were the rubber meets the road, do we follow what evil others do and let it control us, or what Christ asked us to follow.........?
I assure you, I have not followed their evil example by sending nasty letters to silence those concerned about child molestation allegations. Nor have I engaged in private inurement. Nor have I trashed my family on globally televised broadcasts.
But it has hurt you my brother, it has reached in and caused anger and resentment to creep into your heart, and show itself. Do your part in the case as needed, but ask in prayer that you may be given the strenght to return good for evil my brother and forgive those that did evil, and to heal you from its pain and injury. I will pray the same..
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
But it has hurt you my brother, it has reached in and caused anger and resentment to creep into your heart, and show itself.
That my brother is were the rubber meets the road, do we follow what evil others do and let it control us, or what Christ asked us to follow.........?
I assure you, I have not followed their evil example by sending nasty letters to silence those concerned about child molestation allegations. Nor have I engaged in private inurement. Nor have I trashed my family on globally televised broadcasts.
But it has hurt you my brother, it has reached in and caused anger and resentment to creep into your heart, and show itself. Do your part in the case as needed, but ask in prayer that you may be given the strenght to return good for evil my brother and forgive those that did evil, and to heal you from its pain and injury. I will pray the same..
Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I assure you, I have not followed their evil example by sending nasty letters to silence those concerned about child molestation allegations. Nor have I engaged in private inurement. Nor have I trashed my family on globally televised broadcasts.
Reddogs, where have you gotten the strange idea that Bob Pickle is motivated in his actions by pain and injury???
Are you aware that there is a condition known as paranoid schizophrenia?I wouldn't want to you to hurt your reputation as a sane, rational person by throwing out inappropriate designations concerning other people.
But it has hurt you my brother, it has reached in and caused anger and resentment to creep into your heart, and show itself.
I tend to think that righteous indignation is when we are angry, not over what someone has don to us, but over what someone has done to God or the least of Christ's brethren.
Remember when Christ was angry because leaders didn't want Him to heal someone on the Sabbath?
Mr 3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.
I am indignant that so many people have been hurt by the Shelton gang, and that the reputation of Seventh-day Adventism has been jeopardized by their abysmal actions. I thank God that I have had the opportunity to visit and pray with some of these folk.
Reddogs, you must be getting tired after having to say the same thing over and over because nobody will listen to you or at least won't do as you say.
I won't mind if you take a rest for a while.
"What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera. Evil has toppled what once was a Christian show,..."
How perceptive. I would agree that "evil has toppled what was once a Christian Show..." but your evil source seems mis-directed. It was the evil within that was the ultimate challenge here.
Where was the evil with Davenport or Pawtucket Health Institute that cost the church millions? Was it with James Ware, John Adams or John Felts who heralded the error at the top of their lungs and helped to limit the losses to the church by catching it and reporting it early? or was it with Davenport who sued Adams and Felts to shut them up so he could keep the pyramid scheme going? ( The best history of this virtual collapse of stewardship within the church while men of the cloth profited is outlined in "Who Watches? Who Cares?" by Dog Hackleman, but that history may be seen as gossip in your world)
Clearly, the record will demonstrate that as selfish purpose and self inurement took a bigger toll from the 3ABN ministry, so did the issues. As Danny began doing book deals and Lord only knows what all else, the Dept of Revenue shows up and gives them a tax bill.
Was this a warning? Was this God's Judgement upon 3ABN after so many miscues?
We will not recite the entire history, but, I would be so bold as to declare it was. And what was the response: Arrogance and pride required they self preserve rather than confess, repent and reform. They sued the State of Illinois Dept of Revenue. AND LOST?
Where was God's protection here? The evidence is that God's character was rejected and Caste Aside and new heights of avarice were yet to be demonstrated. They appealed and spun the decision rather than confess, repent and reform...and don't forget, more book deals and then the jet.
The 990's demonstrate that they were seeing a decline in revenues and most would declare the Jet Story was the reason. In fact, many believe the Jet was an albatross around the neck of 3ABN. But once again, God's character was caste aside and avarice woud reach even loftier heights: Danny sacrificed his own wife on the alter of avarice and tried to convince the world that he had rid the camp of evil...and it almost worked, but the Lord would not allow it, evil still infected the camp and the ruse failed to work.
Yes, many of you people and a host of others at BlackSDA and within SDA congregations across the NAD were not to be fooled and once again gifts fell in response to the remarriage to Brandy.
And as though the judgment of the Lord spoke decisively, Sky Angels' Transponders went down right after the remarriage. Co-incidence, or hand of the Lord? With a single stroke 3ABN lost over 20,000 SDA skyangel viewers and supporters at just the moment they needed them most...between the remarriage and the grandiose Ten Commandments Twice Removed Campaign culminating in the Ten Commandments Weekend.
But this was an overwhelming success we are told, right? For Danny Lee Shelton, the moving of the TCTR book to outstanding levels of about $4.8 Million Copies "bought", not sold, by 3ABN and the resulting royalties were just well beyond the expectations of even Danny Shelton and Dwight Hall. But the 990's once again tell the story and 3ABN lost nearly 3 Million dollars in 2006 while Danny Lee Shelton made great money. And what about the big week-end in Washington Dc at the Armory set up to accomodate record crowds and an international preaching effort? Well, a disaster is the best description. Most meetings were attended by less than 1500 people in the "studio audience" and Sabbath is said to have peeked out at less than 3000 for the Sabbath Service in the cradle of adventism with many 1000 plus churches within an hours drive.
To add insult to injury, Danny had his own brother, a defrocked and non-SDA pastor, do the final message, a direct afront to the Seventh-day Adventist congregations. Interesting that this final message has been missing from replays of the over glorified week-end in Washington, DC.
And after this disaster, they went to ASI and Danny Lee Shelton rolled out his young new filly, and strangely, things continued to spiral downwards. Steenson had his outrageous confrontation with Pickle there and many an administrator
became convinved their was fire where there was smoke. They rolled out a torrent of information until I was convinced that indeed their was fire under all that smoke and opened our investigation in tandem with Pickles.
Pickle and I had a number of communications with Danny, Thompson and a host of other 3ABN players and realized the entire tale was factually challenged. We called for an ecclesiastical process to reolve the questions. Now was this "evil" or the hand of God once again seeking confession, repentance and reform? But, yet again, pride and avarice would rule and Danny Lee Shelton and 3ABN pulled out the ecclesiastical process and filed suite instead.
It has been a sad tale since then and the problem is not the evil outside for the Biblical principal is "If the Lord Be with you, who can be against you?"
The solution remains the same yesterday, today and tomorrow...there must be confession, repentance and reform to remove th evil from the camp or else we shall most certainly see the the removal of the Aachan in the camp.
So, reddog, wonderful to think of mercy, mercy, mercy and to try and spin it that it is evil attacking 3ABN, but far too many events in sequence with cause and effect clearly demonstrate the evil is within the camp.
SO, you are correct, "it is obvious that pride and arrogance has crept in and destroyed what once spread Gods truth and snuffed out what was a shinning light..." and all the fruits of the evil spirits have been alive and well at 3ABN which I believe you defined as "Anger, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, has now replaced what is being spread,..."
For the record, your judgment that " ...many here have been clearly affected and are in the grasp of evil and need to turn to God and pray to be released from its grip. For He is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and mercy, ready to listen to your prayer to cleanse and keep you from this evil, I can say this from experience.
1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."
As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....
You mean like what Danny and Walt did to Linda over the airwaves and in a public mailing?? LIKE THAT? I totally agree!!!
If they did something to destroy her, then evil has been served and as our brothers they must be presented with their wrong...the scripture is clear on that, but as Christian we must not partake of their sin and try to use the same methods in return........
This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results.
It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, ...
... and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..
This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..
God Bless
Red
This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..
God Bless
Red
This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..
God Bless
Red
Great, Red!! Why don't you contact 3ABN and make the suggestion? Here's the number: 618-627-4651 Perhaps you can reach someone "in authority" and convince them to take action!!
This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..
God Bless
Red
I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...
Great, Red!! Why don't you contact 3ABN and make the suggestion? Here's the number: 618-627-4651 Perhaps you can reach someone "in authority" and convince them to take action!!
This 3ABN issue all around needs to be taken care of, and bringing it to those who have authority over the production or finances usually has the best results. It has not done any good for anybody, and the members have been divided and some have suffered, it needs a resolution for everyone affected. I dont know all the particulars but the quicker its taken care of the better, and if the slate has to be cleaned, then so be it. But the picture it paints of Chritians and Adventist is disapointing to say the least, hopefully those in authority see the harm and move quickly to bring this to a end..
God Bless
Red
I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...
However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.
I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...
I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.
However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.
Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.
I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...
I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.
However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.
Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.
Then the more urgent, as 3ABN from what you tell me, has been set up with no real oversight and in my view the GC Exec. Comm. has to weight in and bring some resolution or force the 3ABN board to handle this issue or put preasure on them to step down.
3ABN is not what saves, and if it has to be reworked, the slate wiped clean, and people replaced, then lets do it. Christ should be the focus not a person, a program, or a issue, as it will just serve to distract and divide us.
I would bring the documentation together and bring it before the executive committee of the General Conference and make sure Jan Paulsen was part of the committee, and decide if the slate needs to be cleaned or it can be salvaged. That would be the direction I would take, as to leave any issue such as this without resolution just invites increased speculation and the sheds a bad light on all involved...
I personally have no problem with that idea, with the understanding that the GC Exec. Comm. has no legal control over 3ABN and cannot make any of its decisions. But they do have a bully pulpit.
However, I'm told that when church leadership tried to say something about some of the independent ministries, they ended up with a big backlash from angry conservatives. This time around they've decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.
Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.
Then the more urgent, as 3ABN from what you tell me, has been set up with no real oversight and in my view the GC Exec. Comm. has to weight in and bring some resolution or force the 3ABN board to handle this issue or put preasure on them to step down.
3ABN is not what saves, and if it has to be reworked, the slate wiped clean, and people replaced, then lets do it. Christ should be the focus not a person, a program, or a issue, as it will just serve to distract and divide us.
Whether right or wrong on that, time will tell, but that's why I did what I did. Meanwhile, the IRS did move in last September, and time will also tell whether or not they will have a press conference and announce an indictment. And if they do, a reporter somewhere may contact me. My only dilemma is whether I can honestly say that we don't tolerate corruption, when ASI discriminates in the matter of membership against those who blow the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when ASI is scared to put into writing what the basis of their membership denial was, when McNeilus money has helped to fund a retaliatory lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when Garwin thinks that our sitting down with the 3ABN Board to share our concerns would be a waste of time, and such.
Now if ASI leadership and Garwin McNeilus would come out publicly and denounce pedophilia, the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about pedophilia, and discrimination against those concerned about pedophilia, I would feel much more comfortable in saying that the Adventist Church doesn't tolerate this kind of stuff. Particularly since ASI gets its tax exempt status from the NAD, and thus there is no way to separate ASI from the denomination.
I agree, reddogs.
Now that conversation of late 2006 comes back a little more. My point at the time was that the 3ABN Board refused to deal with the issues, and that's why the ASI tribunal idea was being tried. But, if the 3ABN Board's refusal to deal with the issues was what led to ASI having to consider getting involved, then it could also refuse to follow ASI's recommendations. And thus the whole process would accomplish nothing.
Then couple that with Danny's telling me that he intended to use a positive decision from ASI regarding the Linda situation to say, "See, everything else is lies too," and you have a pretty bad outlook.
Why did I go public in late 2006 with Walt's information regarding what Danny had told him about the Tommy Shelton child molestation allegations? Our understanding at the time was that the IRS criminal investigation was advancing rapidly. From an apologetic standpoint, it seemed to me that if the Feds had a press conference explaining the situation, it wouldn't put Adventism in a good light. It seemed to me that from an apologetic standpoint it might be better for Adventists to blow the whistle rather than the world, for the impression could then be left that Adventists in the end don't tolerate corruption.
Whether right or wrong on that, time will tell, but that's why I did what I did. Meanwhile, the IRS did move in last September, and time will also tell whether or not they will have a press conference and announce an indictment. And if they do, a reporter somewhere may contact me. My only dilemma is whether I can honestly say that we don't tolerate corruption, when ASI discriminates in the matter of membership against those who blow the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when ASI is scared to put into writing what the basis of their membership denial was, when McNeilus money has helped to fund a retaliatory lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when Garwin thinks that our sitting down with the 3ABN Board to share our concerns would be a waste of time, and such.
So I am in a real pickle to know what I can really, honestly say.
Now if ASI leadership and Garwin McNeilus would come out publicly and denounce pedophilia, the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about pedophilia, and discrimination against those concerned about pedophilia, I would feel much more comfortable in saying that the Adventist Church doesn't tolerate this kind of stuff. Particularly since ASI gets its tax exempt status from the NAD, and thus there is no way to separate ASI from the denomination.
Like I've said before, Garwin's dad was a friend of mine. I think it is absolutely weird that Garwin, Denzil, and Donna would not oppose a retaliatory lawsuit against people concerned about pedophilia. It is totally weird. Their silence and/or participation in this whole travesty thus far is just plain weird. The McNeilus family is supposed to be conservative. ASI is supposed to be conservative. How in the world can they be involved on the wrong side of this mess?
My read of what you are saying is that if we dont take of this issue, the government agencies like the IRS or FBI will, and they will come in with the heavy hand and full blown press conferences and show 3ABN and by extension the Adventist church. So one way or another they are going to get hit with a emberrasing exposure of the issue, might as well let the GC come in and take care of the 3ABN issues before it gets to the government level, and we see Adventist being led by handcuffs on national evening news. If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation and take care of this or it will only get worse.
Red
Excuse me, but DUH!!!!!!! :thumbsup:
Only 12 pages
So one way or another they are going to get hit with a emberrasing exposure of the issue, might as well sidestep ASI and let the GC come in and take care of the 3ABN issues before it gets to the government level, and we see Adventist being led by handcuffs on national evening news.
If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation directly and take care of this or it will only get worse. But I do not everyone inflaming the issue with any emotional or unsubtatiated rumors is needed or should be done and should be set aside as we are all Christians...
Red
We should not hastily credit evil reports. These are often the result of envy or misunderstanding, or they may proceed from exaggeration or a partial disclosure of facts. Jealousy and suspicion, once allowed a place, will sow themselves broadcast, like thistle-down....
A glance, a word, even an intonation of the voice, may be vital with falsehood, sinking like a barbed arrow into some heart, inflicting an incurable wound. Thus a doubt, a reproach, may be cast upon one by whom God would accomplish a good work, and his influence is blighted, his usefulness destroyed.
Among some species of animals, if one of their number is wounded, and falls, he is at once set upon and torn in pieces by his fellows. The same cruel spirit is indulged by men and women who bear the name of christians. They manifest a Pharisaical zeal to stone others less guilty than themselves. There are some, who point to others' faults and failures to divert attention from their own, or to gain credit for great zeal for God and the church.
The tongue that delights in mischief, the babbling tongue that says, Report, and I will report it, is declared by the apostle James to be set on fire of hell. It scatters fire-brands on every side. What cares the vender of gossip that he defames the innocent? He will not stay his evil work, though he destroy hope and courage in those who are already sinking under their burdens. He cares only to indulge his scandal-loving propensity. Even professed Christians close their eyes to all that is pure, honest, noble, and lovely, and treasure up whatever is objectionable and disagreeable, and publish it to the world.....
You have yourselves thrown upon the doors for Satan to come in. You have given him an honored place at your investigation, or inquisition meetings...Jealous, revengeful tongues have colored acts and motives, to suit their own ideas. They have made black appear white and white black.
5T 57-60
To all those who are reading on this site. Please prayerfully consider what the Lord hath said.
If we bite the bullet and take care of it now, it causes much less harm and publicity which can only cause further pain and suffering for all involved, but the GC executive committee needs to be given the documentation directly and take care of this or it will only get worse. But I do not everyone inflaming the issue with any emotional or unsubtatiated rumors is needed or should be done and should be set aside as we are all Christians...
Red
Hey, be easy on reddogs. It not infrequently happens that those who find these things hard to believe, after careful reflection begin to see the seriousness of it all, and wish for a speedy resolution.
Hey, be easy on reddogs. It not infrequently happens that those who find these things hard to believe, after careful reflection begin to see the seriousness of it all, and wish for a speedy resolution.
Junebug, what you have quoted is very true. Would you care to explain how you think it fits the present discussion?
For example, when I stated that ASI discriminated in regards to membership against someone concerned about child molestation allegations, I do not believe that is an exaggeration. When I stated that McNeilus money has helped fund the retaliatory lawsuit against those concerned about allegations of pedophilia, I do not believe that is an exaggeration.
The lawsuit is over a year old now, the discrimination by ASI is nearing a year old, the exposure of Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations is nearing a year and a half old. How long are we to keep silent about these serious, serious matters?
Of course it would be better, by if we are too hard on the wavering, we might drive them away at the very time they are considering being supportive.
Bob,
Dont worry about me, I'll wade through a swamp full of alligators to help a brother or sister, a few bites here and there dont worry me.... ;)
But the 3ABN is a issue that needs to be dealt with calmly and using facts, the devil knows our weaknesses and plays to them especially on a emotional issue like this. We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. As you can see if things are explained factually as you Bob have done, it is easy to understand, but if rumors and hearsay are used, it leads to nowhere and only causes more harm and agitation. If we consider ourselves as Christian, then we must conduct ourselves accordingly, and follow what Christ commands....
Your Brother in Christ
Red
.QuoteBob,
Dont worry about me, I'll wade through a swamp full of alligators to help a brother or sister, a few bites here and there dont worry me.... ;)
But the 3ABN is a issue that needs to be dealt with calmly and using facts, the devil knows our weaknesses and plays to them especially on a emotional issue like this. We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. As you can see if things are explained factually as you Bob have done, it is easy to understand, but if rumors and hearsay are used, it leads to nowhere and only causes more harm and agitation. If we consider ourselves as Christian, then we must conduct ourselves accordingly, and follow what Christ commands....
Your Brother in Christ
Red
reddogs,
Questions ,asking for an explaination, before you determine someone is guilty of hearsy and gossip, is the christian thing to do. From the beginnig of this topic that was not done.
Accusations were made against others,in direct contrast to the biblical advice you were quoting.
We must not allow us to be drawn in and used to attack with emotions and out of feelings rather than facts. This is what you should have had before throwing terms like blasphemy around.
It is always helpful to have those that express enough of an interest to find out what the facts are and share a concern.
What makes it difficult is when the accusations come first
Should Christians gossip and pass on hear-say?
Gossip and hear-say are on the same level as God-haters and the faithless to say nothing of the other things that it is compared to that Paul goes over.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:28-32
2 Corinthians 12:20
For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder.
1 Timothy 5:13
Besides, they get into the habit of being idle and going about from house to house. And not only do they become idlers, but also gossips and busybodies, saying things they ought not to.
Proverbs 26:20
Without wood a fire goes out; without gossip a quarrel dies down.
So what is the opposite of these things that we should be doing, well Paul says it at the begining of Romans 1:
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, 4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ. 7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.
11I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong— 12that is, that you and I may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith. Romans 1:1-12
I think that is something to think about, to mutually encourage each other is what we should be doing, not looking at each others weak points and seeing how to tear each other down....
reddogs, when I first took a look at this stuff in the summer of 2006 because of the concerns of a friend, it was interesting trying to identify allegations or details that could potentially be verified.
What I found particularly helpful was to identify statements that incriminated the individual themselves. Thus, if Danny in July 2004 almost a month after the divorce did not know whether or not Linda had committed fornication with the doctor, as he stated in an email, then by his own admission he did not divorce her on biblical grounds.
Probably some of this has come across as rumor and hearsay when it really hasn't been, due to the dynamics of the situation.
I am not quite sure where you got the blasphemy part from as here is my original post...
QuoteI am not quite sure where you got the blasphemy part from as here is my original post...
Right here, seems advent talk has quite a laundry list and blasphemy is one you included. And at the time it was posted, there was only a strong desire to see any and all statements regarding 3ABn come to an end.
The opening sentnece pretty well defines those you are referring to. Hopefully for one that has taken such a strong stand against accusations and now appears to have concern as to how this could impact the denomination,accusations such as this will be at a minimum...Anger, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness
What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera. Evil has toppled what once was a Christian show, it is obvious that pride and arrogance has crept in and destroyed what once spread Gods truth and snuffed out what was a shinning light. Anger, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness, has now replaced what is being spread, with much suffering all around, many here have been clearly affected and are in the grasp of evil and need to turn to God and pray to be released from its grip. For He is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and mercy, ready to listen to your prayer to cleanse and keep you from this evil, I can say this from experience.
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
If I was working the issue, I would ask that all the principals step aside until the issue was resolved....
If I was working the issue, I would ask that all the principals step aside until the issue was resolved....
I dont remember what was being said at that point but it comes from Mark 7, and I think my point was on the terrible things being spread, some just plainly unsubstantuated personal attacks, and not to allow its evil to be taken in to affect you and do you harm or the results of it coming out, as I have seen the results in many sites...
The 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting.......
QuoteThe 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting.......
So, reddogs, after all the evidence presented, you still accuse us here on Advent Talk of "lack of facts".
This makes me sad.
And I already knew you were a mod on Daryl's other forum.
QuoteThe 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting.......
So, reddogs, after all the evidence presented, you still accuse us here on Advent Talk of "lack of facts".
This makes me sad.
And I already knew you were a mod on Daryl's other forum.
I was sure I read somewhere in this discussion that reddogs was unfamiliar with any facts.
QuoteThe 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting.......
So, reddogs, after all the evidence presented, you still accuse us here on Advent Talk of "lack of facts".
This makes me sad.
And I already knew you were a mod on Daryl's other forum.
Just a notice to let everybody know here that we do have the "Report to Moderator" feature here in which reported posts will be worked by the leadership/moderation team of Advent Talk.
I was sure I read somewhere in this discussion that reddogs was unfamiliar with any facts.
We are busy doing Gods work, helping build 3 Adventist churches, a Adventist church school, find a way for 30-40 under privilidge children to get financing to go to the school, and share Gods truth with others so 3ABN doesnt even come up on our radar screen...
*****************************
The 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting...
*****************************
[To Bonnie] You have no experience with me, I have not come across you in any of the other forums
QuoteWe are busy doing Gods work, helping build 3 Adventist churches, a Adventist church school, find a way for 30-40 under privilidge children to get financing to go to the school, and share Gods truth with others so 3ABN doesnt even come up on our radar screen...
*****************************
The 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting...
*****************************
[To Bonnie] You have no experience with me, I have not come across you in any of the other forums
Can you explain the disparities between the various quotes of yours above, reddogs?
How can you be sure you have not come across Bonnie in any other forums? I have certainly come across you in another forum!
In my past experience with you the only opinion that is a sin to hold is that someone other than you have an opinion of right and wrong..
I believe that it is easy to sit back, take a judgemental but uneducated view of a complex situation, and congratulate yourself that you are promoting a "Christian" viewpoint.
Meanwhile human beings that God created are left suffering from the policies and actions over the years of 3ABN and wondering why not many care enough to take their side.
QuoteThe 3ABN issue is not just on this website, I mod on other forums and this is brought into there with many of the same lack of facts or emotions, or measured details depending on who is posting.......
So, reddogs, after all the evidence presented, you still accuse us here on Advent Talk of "lack of facts".
This makes me sad.
And I already knew you were a mod on Daryl's other forum.QuoteI was sure I read somewhere in this discussion that reddogs was unfamiliar with any facts.Quote[b]I dont think that taking shots like that at a brother is called for....[/b]
But... it's quite OK to hide behind Scripture and SOP as your defence for not accepting responsibility for requiring accountability, is it?
That's just a plain, straight forward cop out. A coward's way of refusing to deal with corruption in the court. :'(
I just can't believe how some people will wriggle and squirm to avoid dealing with the tough issues and then start the 'poor me routine'. :dunno:
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing? That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..
1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce. I have found that to be totally false.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
... you will, if you have not already, end up in bed with him.
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
Just a few questions to clarify. Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.
We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED. Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean. My question?
What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing? That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..
IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit. Down the tube. In other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS. If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also. Several come to mind.
1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce. I have found that to be totally false. Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery? I think not. I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details. If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail? To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie. I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance. I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery. Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery. I'm confused. If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery? If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.Quote
Hi Sam/Dan/Whoever
Are you forgetting Linda's requests; no DEMANDS that Danny/3abn/Board etc publicly furnish any/all the evidence that anyone has that she committed - be that 'spiritual adultery' (whatever that means) or any other kind of adultery they can make up. Not once, has anyone come forward and provided the evidence that Linda herself has called for. That seems rather strange. :oops:Quote2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject. I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation. I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line. But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up." Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed? Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss? As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption. The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for. I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes. Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.
But you are forgetting that Tommy's employment with 3abn was supposed to be terminated back in the early 90's because of his behaviour. Another :oops: Did you just happen to forget that? Can't accept such a lame excuse for thinking that pedophilia just doesn't matter.Quote3. You are a broken record on private inurment also. Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board. Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not. If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?
I reckon that any person who has donated to 3abn has the right to accurate and timely accountability. Is that such a strange expectation?Quote4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you. This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.
For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn. Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told. Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.) So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place. You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories. You repeated publicly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add. Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry. To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out. Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn. Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game. I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn. The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission. You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it. If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public. Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public. Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.
Remember that Danny/3abn didn't want this all sorted out quietly with ASI or the GC. No. It was they who instigated the 'stupid' lawsuit. It is they who decided to 'sue their Christian brethren'.
QuoteThat isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.
So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for. And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action??????
Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn? That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them????
You have to be kidding.
No kidding Mate. Nothing could be more fair-dinkum than this was the way to go to expose to the 'stockholders in the pews' just the raketeering that was going on. I wonder how many dear, little, old ladies donated all their life savings to support 3abn and give DS a lifestyle of ease, while others went without? The website provoked sufficient people for them to realise that there was something very much wrong, and people needed to investigate for themselves, just what was happening at the so-called 'face of Adventism headquarters', which later stated that they were nondenominational. Would the people have known that 3abn would state that they were not affiliated with any Church or organisation, if this had not been brought to light? I think not.
I believe that you, Mr. Pickle, are being used as a weapon by those who seek revenge against 3abn.
***********************************
You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.
***********************************
Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
Just a few questions to clarify. Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.
We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED. Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean. My question?
What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing? That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..
IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit. Down the tube. In other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS. If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also. Several come to mind.
1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce. I have found that to be totally false. Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery? I think not. I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details. If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail? To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie. I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance. I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery. Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery. I'm confused. If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery? If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.Quote
Hi Sam/Dan/Whoever
Are you forgetting Linda's requests; no DEMANDS that Danny/3abn/Board etc publicly furnish any/all the evidence that anyone has that she committed - be that 'spiritual adultery' (whatever that means) or any other kind of adultery they can make up. Not once, has anyone come forward and provided the evidence that Linda herself has called for. That seems rather strange. :oops:
So you are saying that because forum members or Mr. Pickle and Joy haven't seen it, it doesn't exist? To me, that seems rather strange.Quote2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject. I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation. I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line. But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up." Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed? Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss? As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption. The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for. I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes. Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.
But you are forgetting that Tommy's employment with 3abn was supposed to be terminated back in the early 90's because of his behaviour. Another :oops: Did you just happen to forget that? Can't accept such a lame excuse for thinking that pedophilia just doesn't matter.
No, not forgetting. You can't forget something that never happened. I understand that was just another rumor. I believe Dr. Thompson made it clear some time ago that particular accusation was false and Tommy was never fired back in the early 90's. Did you somehow overlook that?Quote3. You are a broken record on private inurment also. Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board. Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not. If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?
I reckon that any person who has donated to 3abn has the right to accurate and timely accountability. Is that such a strange expectation?
A timely accountability means a record and receipt given to those who have donated. It doesn't mean to open a ministries books to 2 men that are already spreading rumors and untruths. I read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men under the same circumstances.Quote4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you. This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.
For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn. Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told. Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.) So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place. You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories. You repeated publicly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add. Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry. To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out. Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn. Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game. I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn. The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission. You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it. If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public. Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public. Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.
Remember that Danny/3abn didn't want this all sorted out quietly with ASI or the GC. No. It was they who instigated the 'stupid' lawsuit. It is they who decided to 'sue their Christian brethren'.
No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines. Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published. To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
QuoteThat isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.
So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for. And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action??????
Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn? That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them????
You have to be kidding.
No kidding Mate. Nothing could be more fair-dinkum than this was the way to go to expose to the 'stockholders in the pews' just the raketeering that was going on. I wonder how many dear, little, old ladies donated all their life savings to support 3abn and give DS a lifestyle of ease, while others went without? The website provoked sufficient people for them to realise that there was something very much wrong, and people needed to investigate for themselves, just what was happening at the so-called 'face of Adventism headquarters', which later stated that they were nondenominational. Would the people have known that 3abn would state that they were not affiliated with any Church or organisation, if this had not been brought to light? I think not.
Now see? Here you are, I presume, a complete stranger to 3abn/Danny/members of the board, throwing around words like "rackateering". People like you who are gullible enough to swallow every rumor, innuendo, second and third hand stories that have been thrown out, are exactly the reason that Mr. Pickle and Joy are in litigation. Their information has made you throw out allegations of "rackateering". You also just stated that as if it were a fact. If you look at the tax statements and the salary figures that the President has made over the last 23 years, I believe it is obvious that no President of 3abn has lived a "lifestyle of ease". In fact, it was several years before the President made much of anything. Danny, Jim G, or anyone else that runs 3abn have not been compensated enough for running an organization of that size. I cannot imagine the responsibility of continually having to raise funds to support 175 workers worldwide, pay for endless satellite time, deal with an unrealistic travel schedule, deal with huge contracts for cable and UHF stations, and a million other details that I have no knowledge or comprehension of but, is part of that job. I wouldn't do it for all the money in the world, much less for the salaries these guys have worked for.
Your comments make me think that you will be "in a pickle" if the IRS clears 3abn.
I cannot imagine the responsibility of continually having to raise funds to support 175 workers worldwide, pay for endless satellite time, deal with an unrealistic travel schedule, deal with huge contracts for cable and UHF stations, and a million other details that I have no knowledge or comprehension of but, is part of that job.
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
Just a few questions to clarify. Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.
We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED. Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean. My question?
What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing? That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..
Answer: Such a finding is extremely unlikely given the weight of the evidence, however, there is a difference between Criminal Penalty and a consent decree that would allow 3ABN by negotiation, and most likely a very hefty fine, to make appropriate changes and move on a reformed entity. I have stated before that a consent decree, if 3ABN were pro-active, was a likely possibility...after all the IRS is about collecting money.
If such a move were made than Federal Subpoena's would have to issue to request supporting documents and a summary of findings with an explanation of the disposition. Obviously, a depositon of the IRS Criminal Investigations coordinator would be critical and would likely be followed by a subpoena to testify before the jury in a civil case.
A Consent Decree and Fine would not by any shake of the imagination constitute a conclusion of "squeeky clean" or "cleared" from a civil standpoint. O.J. Simpson was able to squeek out a "not guilty" from a criminal jury and failed to evade a very large civil judgment in a civil trial.
IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit. Down the tube. In other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS. If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also. Several come to mind.
1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce. I have found that to be totally false. Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery? I think not. I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details. If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail? To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie. I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance. I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery. Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery. I'm confused. If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery? If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.
Answer: Their are several e-mails from Danny Lee Shelton that will demonstrate his own admission that he knew Linda nor he had biblical grounds ofr divorce or remarriage. I have even seen defenders, including Danny, assert he never claimed there was "spiritual adultery" yet we have a spcific e-mail that specifically asserts "spiritual adultery. WE DO NOT LIE!!!
And since when did Danny Lee Shelton not want to exonerate and demonstrate his full deck. If the evidence was conclusive, there woud have been a website and the evidence would be on discplay for all the world to see, particularly with the pressure they are under.
The fact is the board has no such ecclesiatical authority to determine if Danny Lee Shelton had biblical grounds for remarriage. In fact, the Board has never even held a hearing with the accused party, Linda Sue Shelton, present to defend herself or to rebut the evidence and come to such a conclusion.
In the United States it is an accepted rule of law that one has the right to face ones accusers and to rebut the evidence. That was not done before Miller's small committee nor was it done before the Board of Directors. And whenever there has been a demand, even by the accused, Linda Sue Shelton, to role out the evidence, it just never appears. But, the slithery miscreants do not have any problem takling to third parties, including General Conference Staff, the many people in Walla Walla and a dozen other places, BEHIND LINDA's BACK. In other words, ASSASINATION IS THE WAY OF CHRISTIANITY IN THE 3ABN BOARD.
Hardly an exemplary conduct for 3ABN, Danny Lee Shelton or it's Board of rubber stampers and character assasins.
2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject. I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation. I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line. But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up." Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed? Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss? As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption. The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for. I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes. Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.
Answer: Again, SAM, the weight of the evidence is OVERWHELMING and Danny has been a player in cover-up and ignoring the problem while the brother was a 3ABN employee. Now, that is serious stuff and if you do not believe so, consider the mess the Catholic Church faces from so many years back. In fact, much of it within the same time period.
If there were any evidence that there had been true confession, repentance and reform was demonstrated, you might be in the ballpark...but, you strike out yet again.
Not only is the confession, repentance and reform absolutely missing, but he lands back at 3ABN after having been sent packing, following even more incidents in his second parsonage. And then the real irony is that Linda is caste aside without proof and without a hearing and Danny Lee Shelton replaces her with a none SDA pastor and severely damaged career repeatedly charged with homosexual behavious and allegations of pedophilia, right back from whence he was was sent packing. Nespotism clearly must be alive and well at 3ABN.
I am so convinced this is true we are currently working on ways to bring Tommy Lee Shelton back into the case so he can have his day in court.
3. You are a broken record on private inurment also. Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board. Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not. If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?
Objection, repetitive, see answer to your out of order first question, otherwise I would point out that those same auditors that purportedly gave 3ABN a clean bill of health have refused to produce documents requested that would presumably prove your grossly inaccurate assumption to be true. BUT, WE ARE GOING TO MOTION THE COURT TO COMPEL THE PRODUCTION and then we will just see what
auditors with conflicts of interest really had to say and what they failed to say.
4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you. This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.
For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn. Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told. Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.) So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place. You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories. You repeated publicaly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add. Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry. To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out. Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn. Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game. I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn. The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission. You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it. If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public. Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public. Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.
That isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.
So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for. And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action??????
Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn? That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them????
You have to be kidding.
Answer: Your synopsis is so seriously flawed in so many aspects it is hardly worth an answer. We have given the history and it is not unlike so many that go before, whether it be Davenport, Pawtucket Health Institute, Boston Regional, etc. The names and faces are differenct but the general issues remain the same.
YOUR PROBLEM CONTINUES TO BE THAT YOU CANNOT DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN HISTORY AND GOSSIP...and I beg to differ, but the evidence has been so frequently given it leaves you FACTUALLY CHALLENGED.
Look, you know as well as we do that if there had not been smoke long before we showed up and there was any real evidence to support the allegations of Danny Lee Shelton, the "stockholders in the pews" would not have responded, but apparently they did and apparently for good reason long before a website and long before my first e-mail to the directors. Your problem is administrative arrogance and the refusal to open your eyes to the reality. You need the salve of Laodicea.
Then wake up and smell the roses. In the meantime, keep the flame alive in Sesser so we can continue to respond to your inquiry. Great way to role out the truth.
I would also encourage you to attend the trial. The evidence should be quite revealing and I doubt you are on the winning team. Besides, 3ABN just doesn't seem to have any luck in the judiciary.
Keep up the great effort and I look forward to the opprotunity to respond to your next outrage.
Gailon Arthur Joy
QuoteI believe that you, Mr. Pickle, are being used as a weapon by those who seek revenge against 3abn.
***********************************
You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it.
***********************************
Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject.
Interesting techniques you use, Sam, plucking allegations and motives out of thin air and trying to manufacture psychological explanations that make no sense.
So what can be done? At present the lawsuit will drag on for at least another year, not counting appeals, unless the other side starts to give. And the IRS's plans, that's a wild card.
Just a few questions to clarify. Please provide only direct answers to the specific questions.
We all know if you are given a clearance by the IRS....YOU ARE CLEARED. Meaning the IRS is known for finding things when their really isn't anything to find. So, if they clear you, you can be sure you are squeaky clean. My question?
What will your reaction be if the IRS completely clears 3abn of any financial wrong doing? That would mean, accurate tax records, no private inurment, no 3abn monies spent on anyone's personal needs, etc...etc..
IMO if that happens that would mean a large number of stories you have repeated, as well as, your own take on what constitutes private inurment, mishandling of funds and on and on would be totally incorrect. Without merit. Down the tube. In other words, your opinions and your sources opinions aren't worth a dime compared to the IRS. If your financial allegations are proven false then think how many other accusations you have made that could be in error also. Several come to mind.
1. You have stated repeatedly that Danny ADMITTED having no biblical grounds for divorce. I have found that to be totally false. Because the "board" mentioned spiritual adultery does that "rule out" they had no knowledge of "actual" adultery? I think not. I believe the board acted respectfully by not airing the sordid details. If and I say If, Danny referred to spriritual adultery does that also mean he doesn't have evidence of actual adultery and again, was being respectful by not going into detail? To say that Danny ADMITTED to not having biblical grounds for divorce is so far from the truth, it is actually a lie. I have noticed Mr. Pickle that you say what you need to where you need to, to fit the situation. For instance. I have read numerous times where you have accused Danny of trashing his ex wife on the air and trying to ruin her reputation by saying she committed adultery. Then, as in your more recent post, you say he ADMITS only spiritual adultery. I'm confused. If he ADMITS it was only spiritual adultery then how could he, at other times, trash her by accusing her of "actual" adultery? If Danny and the board have evidence then certainly Danny had biblical grounds for remarriage, and he nor the board owe Linda or anyone else an apology for their actions.Quote
Hi Sam/Dan/Whoever
Are you forgetting Linda's requests; no DEMANDS that Danny/3abn/Board etc publicly furnish any/all the evidence that anyone has that she committed - be that 'spiritual adultery' (whatever that means) or any other kind of adultery they can make up. Not once, has anyone come forward and provided the evidence that Linda herself has called for. That seems rather strange. :oops:
So you are saying that because forum members or Mr. Pickle and Joy haven't seen it, it doesn't exist? To me, that seems rather strange.Quote2. Your allegations against Tommy Shelton seem to be like a broken record. The same stuff over and over again. So much so that I have wondered if you had a bad experience in your past that makes you dwell on this subject. I know this will be hard for you but, moving past that, your allegation against Danny is that he "covered up" molestation. I have a few opinions myself on the subject.
First from what I have read and heard, your accusation of pedophilia is way out of line. But, to get to the main point, there are other possible scenerio's besides a "cover up." Did it ever occur to you that maybe Danny repeated to Walt Thompson the information that he had heard and believed? Or, that Danny may have had knowledge of some mistakes (not pedophilia) made in the very distant past but knew (or thought) that the problems had been resolved and had no reason to believe that during the time of Tommy's 3abn employment that anything was amiss? As far as I can tell that is an accurate assumption. The employment time is all Danny would be responsible for. I would sure hate to hold the head of any organization accountable for any mistakes or sins that their employees had made through their lifetimes. Ha, there wouldn't be any companies left.
But you are forgetting that Tommy's employment with 3abn was supposed to be terminated back in the early 90's because of his behaviour. Another :oops: Did you just happen to forget that? Can't accept such a lame excuse for thinking that pedophilia just doesn't matter.
No, not forgetting. You can't forget something that never happened. I understand that was just another rumor. I believe Dr. Thompson made it clear some time ago that particular accusation was false and Tommy was never fired back in the early 90's. Did you somehow overlook that?Quote3. You are a broken record on private inurment also. Yet I have read from some of the posters say that attorney's and auditors have been through the records and handled the transactions at the time, and have found everything above board. Yet, you seem to think you have some insight that they do not. If the IRS clears 3abn will you also claim insight that they don't have?
I reckon that any person who has donated to 3abn has the right to accurate and timely accountability. Is that such a strange expectation?
A timely accountability means a record and receipt given to those who have donated. It doesn't mean to open a ministries books to 2 men that are already spreading rumors and untruths. I read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men under the same circumstances.Quote4. You are constantly referring now to the "stupid" lawsuit and what a terrible thing it is that 3abn filed one against you. This is what I get from the forums, emails you have made public and comments from both sides.
For whatever reason, you became involved in questioning some things you had heard about 3abn. Personal things, financial things... So you and Joy, complete strangers try or do contact Danny with your very personal questions while all the time, already repeating stories and accusations that you had been told. Danny then, began to get phone calls that you guys were trouble and couldn't be trusted and were working with Linda to try and hurt 3abn. ( I read that somewhere.) So Danny decided 1. all you were doing was repeating tales, 2. who were you to be cross examining him or 3abn in the first place. You and Joy began to make phone calls and send emails to people you had been told had problems with 3abn/Danny/the board and began to collect their stories. You repeated publicly all the stories you were told. With no evidence, I might add. Yet, all the while, you were proclaiming your desire to "save" a ministry. To do that, IYO, most of administration would have to be wiped out. Soon your accusations spread to anyone that has had anything to do with 3abn. Their personal lives, their families, to you everyone was and is fair game. I am still looking for the justification of trashing those that support 3abn, Shelton family members, family members of the board of directors, to try and "save" 3abn. The trashing of so many other people's reputations has nothing to do with the 3abn ministry and your claim to "save it." What it does have to do with is developing hate and bitterness as you have progressed on your "unholy" mission. You are at the point of destroying reputations just for the sheer joy of doing it. If your "sources" told you that John Doe was involved in thievery 10 years ago, expose it. Expose them, whether they are guilty or not. If someone told it to you, then obviously you feel it your obligation to make it public. Doesn't matter how much or how little exposure to 3abn John Doe had or how many years ago he "allegedly" stole something, broadcast it. Make it public. Even though, you can't prove it and are doing nothing but passing along gossip around the water cooler.
Remember that Danny/3abn didn't want this all sorted out quietly with ASI or the GC. No. It was they who instigated the 'stupid' lawsuit. It is they who decided to 'sue their Christian brethren'.
No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines. Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published. To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
QuoteThat isn't even mentioning the fact that you created a website called "save" 3abn so that many times when people were searching the net for the "real" 3abn ministry they accidentally fell into the black pit that you had created for public consumption.
So as time went on and your allegations and accusations became more and more serious and you continued to state these allegations as facts to anyone who would listen, 3abn finally decided to take action and file a lawsuit for defamation, copyright, and whatever else they filed for. And...you were, shocked, offended, horrified and clueless as to why they would take action??????
Somehow you expect the general Adventist public to believe your actions are trying to "save" 3abn? That you are following biblical principal? And that big, bad scary 3abn is trying to nail 2 poor little men who were only trying to help them????
You have to be kidding.
No kidding Mate. Nothing could be more fair-dinkum than this was the way to go to expose to the 'stockholders in the pews' just the raketeering that was going on. I wonder how many dear, little, old ladies donated all their life savings to support 3abn and give DS a lifestyle of ease, while others went without? The website provoked sufficient people for them to realise that there was something very much wrong, and people needed to investigate for themselves, just what was happening at the so-called 'face of Adventism headquarters', which later stated that they were nondenominational. Would the people have known that 3abn would state that they were not affiliated with any Church or organisation, if this had not been brought to light? I think not.
Now see? Here you are, I presume, a complete stranger to 3abn/Danny/members of the board, throwing around words like "rackateering". People like you who are gullible enough to swallow every rumor, innuendo, second and third hand stories that have been thrown out, are exactly the reason that Mr. Pickle and Joy are in litigation. Their information has made you throw out allegations of "rackateering". You also just stated that as if it were a fact. If you look at the tax statements and the salary figures that the President has made over the last 23 years, I believe it is obvious that no President of 3abn has lived a "lifestyle of ease". In fact, it was several years before the President made much of anything. Danny, Jim G, or anyone else that runs 3abn have not been compensated enough for running an organization of that size. I cannot imagine the responsibility of continually having to raise funds to support 175 workers worldwide, pay for endless satellite time, deal with an unrealistic travel schedule, deal with huge contracts for cable and UHF stations, and a million other details that I have no knowledge or comprehension of but, is part of that job. I wouldn't do it for all the money in the world, much less for the salaries these guys have worked for.
Your comments make me think that you will be "in a pickle" if the IRS clears 3abn.
No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines. Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published. To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
I read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
I read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
3) Mr Pickle offered to have an ecclesiatical process and 3ABN's answer was a Federal Lawsuite, a clearly brilliant move for one concerned about keeping their sins in the closet
And so you are making progress. I see you feel that 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton should most certainly have agreed to meet with us to discuss the "evidence" man to man over a conference table rather than file suite!!!
Just to make it crystal clear to all, Danny Shelton sued us in federal court. He opted out of a more private process of an ASI tribunal.
This time around they've[GC] decided not to get actively involved. That's why ASI was supposed to set up a tribunal, not the GC.Yet ASI had no control either. I was talking with a retired church leader in late 2006, and when I pointed out to him that whatever ASI decided regarding this mess couldn't be enforced due to 3ABN's governance structure, he realized the problem and said he didn't know what to do.
My point at the time was that the 3ABN Board refused to deal with the issues, and that's why the ASI tribunal idea was being tried. But, if the 3ABN Board's refusal to deal with the issues was what led to ASI having to consider getting involved, then it could also refuse to follow ASI's recommendations. And thus the whole process would accomplish nothing....My only dilemma is whether I can honestly say that we don't tolerate corruption, when ASI discriminates in the matter of membership [FYI -- PICKLE IS TALKING ABOUT HIMSELF HERE. ASI has not, either before the 3abn dilemma and Pickle's self involvement nor since then, accepted his membership. ] against those who blow the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when ASI is scared to put into writing what the basis of their membership denial was, when McNeilus money has helped to fund a retaliatory lawsuit against those who blew the whistle on the cover up of child molestation allegations, when Garwin thinks that our sitting down with the 3ABN Board to share our concerns would be a waste of time, and such.
So I am in a real pickle to know what I can really, honestly say.
Now if ASI leadership and Garwin McNeilus would come out publicly and denounce pedophilia, the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, retaliatory lawsuits against those concerned about pedophilia, and discrimination against those concerned about pedophilia, I would feel much more comfortable in saying that the Adventist Church doesn't tolerate this kind of stuff. Particularly since ASI gets its tax exempt status from the NAD, and thus there is no way to separate ASI from the denomination.
I think it is crucial for Garwin, Denzil, and Donna to break their silence and come out solidly in opposition to the cover up of allegations of pedophilia, and to ASI discrimination and retaliatory lawsuits
when I stated that ASI discriminated in regards to membership against someone concerned about child molestation allegations, I do not believe that is an exaggeration. When I stated that McNeilus money has helped fund the retaliatory lawsuit against those concerned about allegations of pedophilia, I do not believe that is an exaggeration.
The lawsuit is over a year old now, the discrimination by ASI is nearing a year old,
Pickle said "Remember that Danny/3abn didn't want this all sorted out quietly with ASI or the GC. No. It was they who instigated the 'stupid' lawsuit. It is they who decided to 'sue their Christian brethren'."
No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines. Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published. To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
Now Sam, your statement above comes across as if you are a bald face liar. How can you say such a thing?
Why ASI Chose to withdraw from Discussions
To Those It May Concern:
Answering a request last fall from Three Angels’ Broadcasting Network’s Board of Directors (afterward referred to as 3ABN), ASI agreed to explore the possibility of forming a commission “. . . to evaluate and determine Danny's legal and moral right to divorce and remarry . . .” [excerpt from 3ABN minutes].
ASI’s Executive Committee spent considerable time and effort from late September 2006 until early 2007 exploring that assignment. ASI’s Executive Committee met January 4 to review progress on establishing a commission. After a full discussion at that time, the Committee voted unanimously to withdraw from the process they had agreed to consider. A brief announcement was made by ASI, without stating any of the reasons for our withdrawal. We received questions from both ASI members and several Church leaders. All wanted to know the reasons for ASI’s action to withdraw. The Committee met again on January 9, 2007 and authorized the following explanation:
Reason for ASI’s Withdrawal
ASI’s decision to withdraw was not based on the merits of the divorce and remarriage issues or any of the other issues we were urged to consider. ASI’s decision was based solely on the barriers we encountered in attempting to reach agreement between the parties on a process whereby the commission would study the issues.
ASI’s Initial Considerations
ASI believed it could develop a process that would be fair to all parties, utilizing a panel of ASI members selected for their spirituality, fairness and intelligence. The parties would be chosen through a panel selection process. ASI proposed a process to assure a fair due process to all concerned.ASI believed it was essential that it have the active involvement of all parties in this process.
Danny and 3ABN Accept
By December 10, 2006, Danny Shelton (afterward referred to as Danny) and 3ABN had accepted the process proposed by ASI.
Unexpected Barriers
Linda [formerly Mrs. Danny Shelton] (afterward referred to as Linda) did not participate personally in discussions to develop an agreed upon process.
Linda identified Gaylon Arthur Joy (afterward referred to as Joy) as her representative. Joy, in turn, introduced Bob Pickle (afterward referred to as Pickle) and Greg Matthews (afterward referred to as Matthews) as his team members.
Linda’s team:
Did not accept that ASI was capable of providing a fair forum to decide the issues
Insisted on including issues involving allegations of mismanagement and corporate misconduct at 3ABN
Would not accept the ground rules for the panel’s procedures
Would not cease harassing e-mail contact with Danny or other 3ABN representatives
Would not cease, when requested to do so, circulating distracting comments about the process under discussion with ASI
We never learned whether Linda approved of the positions asserted by her team.At no time did Linda respond except to say that Joy would be her representative.
3ABN/ASI Relationship
ASI was open to whatever conclusion the facts would reveal, and we were disappointed that our efforts did not result in a resolution of the issues we had agreed to consider.
The ASI Executive Committee believes that 3ABN is a God-inspired and God-led instrument for the effective spread of the three angels messages to the world, and that it has been, and continues to be, a blessing to the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church.
ASI is an organization of member businesses and ministries that share a priority for the spread of the gospel in their marketplaces. 3ABN was introduced to ASI in the mid-1980's at our ASI Convention in Big Sky, Montana. At that time their television idea was just a dream. ASI was intrigued by their audacious plan of a lay-operated ministry providing a worldwide radio and television network with "straight" Seventh-day Adventist programming, 24/7. That meeting was the beginning of a mutually beneficial relationship, resulting in the growth of both 3ABN and ASI and in positive media exposure for hundreds of ASI members. Both Linda and Danny Shelton were viewed as capable leaders, deserving our respect and involvement with ASI.
In addition to great sadness for those who know them, the breakup of the Sheltons’ marriage and subsequent events brought much public comment that came to the notice of ASI, Church leadership and 3ABN’s viewers. Soon after: "The 3ABN Board of Directors voted unanimously on September 24 [2006] to request ASI to set up a commission to evaluate and determine Danny's legal and moral right to divorce and to re-marry" [excerpt from 3ABN minutes].
Attempts to Establish the Commission Panel
As ASI leadership was considering 3ABN's request, an e-mail message dated, October 3, 2006, was received by ASI’s president from Joy, hitherto unknown to ASI, saying in part:
“. . . Dr. Thompson [Walter Thompson, 3ABN Board Chair] has informed me that ASI has agreed to be the appropriate platform upon which to hear allegations regarding 3ABN. While I agree to that in theory, ASI is the appropriate platform and clearly has some jurisdiction here, and by voluntary assent would have full jurisdiction to hear the allegations and make appropriate findings, I also recognize there are some clear and serious conflicts that need to be clarified."
Joy’s memo included messages from others (unknown and unidentified to us) who seriously questioning whether ASI was an appropriate organization to be involved. As stated above, Joy himself was unknown to ASI leadership at that time. It was not known what his interest was in the matter until Linda later identified Joy as her representative. Joy then introduced Pickle and Matthews as part of Linda's team. Since that time Joy, Pickle and Matthews always were included in any correspondence sent to Linda.
October 25, 2006: The ASI Executive Committee took an action authorizing the exploration of becoming involved in the process and asked Harold Lance, past ASI president, to represent ASI and lead out in the commission’s process.
October 31, 2006: ASI circulated a document entitled "Procedural Suggestions" [see below] to Linda, Danny, their representatives, and to 3ABN.
Basic Concepts
ASI identified several basic concepts necessary for the process to succeed:
The involvement of Linda, Danny, and 3ABN was essential in order to reach a successful agreement regarding a fair process and then to come to a resolution of the dispute.
Widespread distracting interchanges on web sites and forums led us to believe that the discussions between ASI and all parties attempting to establish an agreement on the process (Linda, Danny, their representatives, and 3ABN) needed to be conducted with confidentiality.
Both “sides” (Linda’s and Danny’s) needed to stop direct critical comment with each other.
Procedural Suggestions
ASI suggested the following procedural/process concepts:
The panel selected to hear and decide the issues should be chosen by ASI in consultation with the parties [linda and Danny].
Because of the sensitive nature of the issues, the proceedings should be private, in the manner of an "Executive Session" within a board of directors of the Church or a corporation.
Issues for consideration needed careful definition and mutual agreement.
Parties would formally state in advance of the hearing their position on each issue and their expected outcome of each issue.
Each party would, in advance of their appearance before the panel, furnish the identity of witnesses and their expected information, as well as provide copies of any documents [evidence] to be presented to the panel.
All costs connected with the proceedings would be paid by 3ABN.
Proceedings would be held at a neutral site as convenient as possible for all parties.
Input from both parties would be welcomed to establish the ground rules on the process to be followed.
Questioning would be conducted by the panel under the direction of its chairperson, with opportunity for the parties or their representatives to suggest questions.
The decision of the panel would be based upon information presented by the parties at the hearing and not from outside sources.
The proceedings would not be conducted as a trial, with a judge, lawyers, cross examination and typical court-like processes.
Within 30 days after the conclusion of the proceedings the panel would announce its written findings on the issues, the factual reasons for their findings, and recommendations to the parties, which document would be available to the parties and the interested public.
What happened? Why didn’t the process succeed?
There was significant interchange between Linda's team and ASI, and between Danny, 3ABN and ASI that lead to the creation of two additional documents presented by ASI to the parties that contained details and revisions to the proposed process that the parties had suggested.
We continued to have no contact from Linda other than a single memo to an ASI officer stating that Joy was her representative.
By December 10, 2006, Danny and 3ABN had accepted the process as proposed by ASI.
On December 13, 2006, ASI received an email from Joy advising that Linda was preparing a careful, thorough response to the process proposals, along with a list of questions that he and Linda were preparing for their own clarification. This response and list of questions never came.
Interchange between ASI and Linda's team
Discussions between ASI and Linda’s representatives centered around:
Whether the proceeding should be open to the public or private
Whether ASI could be neutral and provide a "level playing field"
Whether the proceedings should be video taped/recorded/broadcast
Whether the issues considered by the panel should extend beyond the Sheltons’ divorce and Danny’s remarriage to include, for example:That Danny and the 3ABN Board of Directors were guilty of malfeasance
That Danny should be removed as president of 3ABN
That the Board of Directors of 3ABN should be removed
That 3ABN should be restructured to create a constituency-based organization (though they knew that the existing structure is lawful)
That any person who has contributed to the support of 3ABN should be a constituent and entitled to a voice in the selection of the Board of Directors and management of the ministry (donors were referred to by Linda’s team as, "stockholders in the pews")
That the 3ABN corporate by-laws needed to be changed to allow for censure, discipline, and removal of officers or members of the Board of Directors. [NOTE: In fact the corporate by-laws already provide for those possibilities.)
At least 22 other issues were raised in Forum site references by her team and urged for inclusion in the ASI process.
From the beginning last fall, Linda was provided with all necessary telephone and e-mail contact information for involvement with the discussion. She was sent copies of all communications from ASI (as were Danny and 3ABN). In the two-plus months of ASI's attempts to reach agreement on a fundamental process for the panel, she did not respond (except to name Joy as her representative).
We do not know if Linda shares in a belief with Joy, Pickle and Matthews that the agenda should include the matters asserted by her team (above). She chose not to participate.
It became clear that Joy, Pickle and Matthews had interests far beyond the issues that ASI had agreed to consider.
The Beginning of the End of Discussions
We affirmed to the parties that even though ASI supports the ministry of 3ABN and wishes for it to succeed and prosper, ASI would be fair and objective in considering the issues related to the Sheltons’ divorce and Danny’s remarriage. We also believed that the panel selected by ASI, in consultation with the parties involved, would be people who possessed qualities of spirituality, intelligence and fairness. We affirmed to both parties that ASI had no stake in the outcome, and that ASI would be comfortable with whatever conclusions were reached by the panel. However, we never reached the point of choosing a panel.
A week or two into the process, Danny and 3ABN ceased exchanging messages with the other side. That was helpful. Because ASI declined to consider issues beyond those of the divorce and remarriage, Joy, Pickle and Matthews continued their negative contacts with Danny, Dr. Thompson (3ABN Board chair) and others associated with 3ABN. Though couched in spiritual language, their messages were persistent, confrontational, argumentative and harassing. ASI’s efforts to stop their direct communications were unsuccessful.
Final Assessment
We believe that ASI has no jurisdiction to consider internal issues of 3ABN management or the changing of its corporate structure. Those issues must be left to its governing body, the 3ABN Board of Directors. We believe our inability to resolve the fundamental issue of the divorce and remarriage is disappointing to many. We felt that without agreement on the fundamental process, and with no likely agreement in sight, it was necessary for ASI to withdraw. The two parties are the losers in what could have been a healing clarification of a divisive issue for all those involved and concerned.
We confess that if we would have known how bring resolution to the matter, we would have done so. We don't, but God does. We urge that all who have a concern over these issues and over the future ministry of 3ABN (and of Linda and Danny) be respectful, restrained, and apply the Golden Rule as you would wish others to do for you. And pray for one another without ceasing.
The ASI Executive Committee
by Harold Lance
January 24, 2007
No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines. Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published. To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
Now Sam, your statement above comes across as if you are a bald face liar. How can you say such a thing?
???QuoteWhy ASI Chose to withdraw from Discussions
To Those It May Concern:
Answering a request last fall from Three Angels’ Broadcasting Network’s Board of Directors (afterward referred to as 3ABN), ASI agreed to explore the possibility of forming a commission “. . . to evaluate and determine Danny's legal and moral right to divorce and remarry . . .” [excerpt from 3ABN minutes].
ASI’s Executive Committee spent considerable time and effort from late September 2006 until early 2007 exploring that assignment. ASI’s Executive Committee met January 4 to review progress on establishing a commission. After a full discussion at that time, the Committee voted unanimously to withdraw from the process they had agreed to consider. A brief announcement was made by ASI, without stating any of the reasons for our withdrawal. We received questions from both ASI members and several Church leaders. All wanted to know the reasons for ASI’s action to withdraw. The Committee met again on January 9, 2007 and authorized the following explanation:
Reason for ASI’s Withdrawal
ASI’s decision to withdraw was not based on the merits of the divorce and remarriage issues or any of the other issues we were urged to consider. ASI’s decision was based solely on the barriers we encountered in attempting to reach agreement between the parties on a process whereby the commission would study the issues.
ASI’s Initial Considerations
ASI believed it could develop a process that would be fair to all parties, utilizing a panel of ASI members selected for their spirituality, fairness and intelligence. The parties would be chosen through a panel selection process. ASI proposed a process to assure a fair due process to all concerned.ASI believed it was essential that it have the active involvement of all parties in this process.
Danny and 3ABN Accept
By December 10, 2006, Danny Shelton (afterward referred to as Danny) and 3ABN had accepted the process proposed by ASI.
Unexpected Barriers
Linda [formerly Mrs. Danny Shelton] (afterward referred to as Linda) did not participate personally in discussions to develop an agreed upon process.
Linda identified Gaylon Arthur Joy (afterward referred to as Joy) as her representative. Joy, in turn, introduced Bob Pickle (afterward referred to as Pickle) and Greg Matthews (afterward referred to as Matthews) as his team members.
Linda’s team:
Did not accept that ASI was capable of providing a fair forum to decide the issues
Insisted on including issues involving allegations of mismanagement and corporate misconduct at 3ABN
Would not accept the ground rules for the panel’s procedures
Would not cease harassing e-mail contact with Danny or other 3ABN representatives
Would not cease, when requested to do so, circulating distracting comments about the process under discussion with ASI
We never learned whether Linda approved of the positions asserted by her team.At no time did Linda respond except to say that Joy would be her representative.
3ABN/ASI Relationship
ASI was open to whatever conclusion the facts would reveal, and we were disappointed that our efforts did not result in a resolution of the issues we had agreed to consider.
The ASI Executive Committee believes that 3ABN is a God-inspired and God-led instrument for the effective spread of the three angels messages to the world, and that it has been, and continues to be, a blessing to the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church.
ASI is an organization of member businesses and ministries that share a priority for the spread of the gospel in their marketplaces. 3ABN was introduced to ASI in the mid-1980's at our ASI Convention in Big Sky, Montana. At that time their television idea was just a dream. ASI was intrigued by their audacious plan of a lay-operated ministry providing a worldwide radio and television network with "straight" Seventh-day Adventist programming, 24/7. That meeting was the beginning of a mutually beneficial relationship, resulting in the growth of both 3ABN and ASI and in positive media exposure for hundreds of ASI members. Both Linda and Danny Shelton were viewed as capable leaders, deserving our respect and involvement with ASI.
In addition to great sadness for those who know them, the breakup of the Sheltons’ marriage and subsequent events brought much public comment that came to the notice of ASI, Church leadership and 3ABN’s viewers. Soon after: "The 3ABN Board of Directors voted unanimously on September 24 [2006] to request ASI to set up a commission to evaluate and determine Danny's legal and moral right to divorce and to re-marry" [excerpt from 3ABN minutes].
Attempts to Establish the Commission Panel
As ASI leadership was considering 3ABN's request, an e-mail message dated, October 3, 2006, was received by ASI’s president from Joy, hitherto unknown to ASI, saying in part:
“. . . Dr. Thompson [Walter Thompson, 3ABN Board Chair] has informed me that ASI has agreed to be the appropriate platform upon which to hear allegations regarding 3ABN. While I agree to that in theory, ASI is the appropriate platform and clearly has some jurisdiction here, and by voluntary assent would have full jurisdiction to hear the allegations and make appropriate findings, I also recognize there are some clear and serious conflicts that need to be clarified."
Joy’s memo included messages from others (unknown and unidentified to us) who seriously questioning whether ASI was an appropriate organization to be involved. As stated above, Joy himself was unknown to ASI leadership at that time. It was not known what his interest was in the matter until Linda later identified Joy as her representative. Joy then introduced Pickle and Matthews as part of Linda's team. Since that time Joy, Pickle and Matthews always were included in any correspondence sent to Linda.
October 25, 2006: The ASI Executive Committee took an action authorizing the exploration of becoming involved in the process and asked Harold Lance, past ASI president, to represent ASI and lead out in the commission’s process.
October 31, 2006: ASI circulated a document entitled "Procedural Suggestions" [see below] to Linda, Danny, their representatives, and to 3ABN.
Basic Concepts
ASI identified several basic concepts necessary for the process to succeed:
The involvement of Linda, Danny, and 3ABN was essential in order to reach a successful agreement regarding a fair process and then to come to a resolution of the dispute.
Widespread distracting interchanges on web sites and forums led us to believe that the discussions between ASI and all parties attempting to establish an agreement on the process (Linda, Danny, their representatives, and 3ABN) needed to be conducted with confidentiality.
Both “sides” (Linda’s and Danny’s) needed to stop direct critical comment with each other.
Procedural Suggestions
ASI suggested the following procedural/process concepts:
The panel selected to hear and decide the issues should be chosen by ASI in consultation with the parties [linda and Danny].
Because of the sensitive nature of the issues, the proceedings should be private, in the manner of an "Executive Session" within a board of directors of the Church or a corporation.
Issues for consideration needed careful definition and mutual agreement.
Parties would formally state in advance of the hearing their position on each issue and their expected outcome of each issue.
Each party would, in advance of their appearance before the panel, furnish the identity of witnesses and their expected information, as well as provide copies of any documents [evidence] to be presented to the panel.
All costs connected with the proceedings would be paid by 3ABN.
Proceedings would be held at a neutral site as convenient as possible for all parties.
Input from both parties would be welcomed to establish the ground rules on the process to be followed.
Questioning would be conducted by the panel under the direction of its chairperson, with opportunity for the parties or their representatives to suggest questions.
The decision of the panel would be based upon information presented by the parties at the hearing and not from outside sources.
The proceedings would not be conducted as a trial, with a judge, lawyers, cross examination and typical court-like processes.
Within 30 days after the conclusion of the proceedings the panel would announce its written findings on the issues, the factual reasons for their findings, and recommendations to the parties, which document would be available to the parties and the interested public.
What happened? Why didn’t the process succeed?
There was significant interchange between Linda's team and ASI, and between Danny, 3ABN and ASI that lead to the creation of two additional documents presented by ASI to the parties that contained details and revisions to the proposed process that the parties had suggested.
We continued to have no contact from Linda other than a single memo to an ASI officer stating that Joy was her representative.
By December 10, 2006, Danny and 3ABN had accepted the process as proposed by ASI.
On December 13, 2006, ASI received an email from Joy advising that Linda was preparing a careful, thorough response to the process proposals, along with a list of questions that he and Linda were preparing for their own clarification. This response and list of questions never came.
Interchange between ASI and Linda's team
Discussions between ASI and Linda’s representatives centered around:
Whether the proceeding should be open to the public or private
Whether ASI could be neutral and provide a "level playing field"
Whether the proceedings should be video taped/recorded/broadcast
Whether the issues considered by the panel should extend beyond the Sheltons’ divorce and Danny’s remarriage to include, for example:That Danny and the 3ABN Board of Directors were guilty of malfeasance
That Danny should be removed as president of 3ABN
That the Board of Directors of 3ABN should be removed
That 3ABN should be restructured to create a constituency-based organization (though they knew that the existing structure is lawful)
That any person who has contributed to the support of 3ABN should be a constituent and entitled to a voice in the selection of the Board of Directors and management of the ministry (donors were referred to by Linda’s team as, "stockholders in the pews")
That the 3ABN corporate by-laws needed to be changed to allow for censure, discipline, and removal of officers or members of the Board of Directors. [NOTE: In fact the corporate by-laws already provide for those possibilities.)
At least 22 other issues were raised in Forum site references by her team and urged for inclusion in the ASI process.
From the beginning last fall, Linda was provided with all necessary telephone and e-mail contact information for involvement with the discussion. She was sent copies of all communications from ASI (as were Danny and 3ABN). In the two-plus months of ASI's attempts to reach agreement on a fundamental process for the panel, she did not respond (except to name Joy as her representative).
We do not know if Linda shares in a belief with Joy, Pickle and Matthews that the agenda should include the matters asserted by her team (above). She chose not to participate.
It became clear that Joy, Pickle and Matthews had interests far beyond the issues that ASI had agreed to consider.
The Beginning of the End of Discussions
We affirmed to the parties that even though ASI supports the ministry of 3ABN and wishes for it to succeed and prosper, ASI would be fair and objective in considering the issues related to the Sheltons’ divorce and Danny’s remarriage. We also believed that the panel selected by ASI, in consultation with the parties involved, would be people who possessed qualities of spirituality, intelligence and fairness. We affirmed to both parties that ASI had no stake in the outcome, and that ASI would be comfortable with whatever conclusions were reached by the panel. However, we never reached the point of choosing a panel.
A week or two into the process, Danny and 3ABN ceased exchanging messages with the other side. That was helpful. Because ASI declined to consider issues beyond those of the divorce and remarriage, Joy, Pickle and Matthews continued their negative contacts with Danny, Dr. Thompson (3ABN Board chair) and others associated with 3ABN. Though couched in spiritual language, their messages were persistent, confrontational, argumentative and harassing. ASI’s efforts to stop their direct communications were unsuccessful.
Final Assessment
We believe that ASI has no jurisdiction to consider internal issues of 3ABN management or the changing of its corporate structure. Those issues must be left to its governing body, the 3ABN Board of Directors. We believe our inability to resolve the fundamental issue of the divorce and remarriage is disappointing to many. We felt that without agreement on the fundamental process, and with no likely agreement in sight, it was necessary for ASI to withdraw. The two parties are the losers in what could have been a healing clarification of a divisive issue for all those involved and concerned.
We confess that if we would have known how bring resolution to the matter, we would have done so. We don't, but God does. We urge that all who have a concern over these issues and over the future ministry of 3ABN (and of Linda and Danny) be respectful, restrained, and apply the Golden Rule as you would wish others to do for you. And pray for one another without ceasing.
The ASI Executive Committee
by Harold Lance
January 24, 2007
It became clear that Joy, Pickle and Matthews had interests far beyond the issues that ASI had agreed to consider.
Ian, your posts are admirable also. I appreciate the facts being presented by you.
I believe between you and Sam, those in the pews are receiving the truth.
Thank you for publishing the viewpoint of HAROLD LANCE, Ian.
Now this is what is considered hard information, not just hearsay...
QuoteI read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
Sam, interesting that you would bring up Doug Batchelor to bolster your case, who has been mentioned in another thread as being highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire.
Also I do think it worth mentioning the letter was from ASI and only drafted by Harold lance as their representative and with their vote and approval, so not his viewpoint alone. :)
Thank you for publishing the viewpoint of HAROLD LANCE, Ian.
No problem, but right or wrong I immediately edited it to include quotes of relevant posts from this thread, not realizing so many were already replying....
Also I do think it worth mentioning the letter was from ASI and only drafted by Harold lance as their representative and with their vote and approval, so not his viewpoint alone. :)
QuoteI read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
Sam, interesting that you would bring up Doug Batchelor to bolster your case, who has been mentioned in another thread as being highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire.
Interesting that you would bring up "highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire" in such a way as to suggest that Doug Batchelor would not bolster Sam's case. I called Amazing Facts to inquire about what relationship existed between Ernie Knolls and Doug Batchelor. Doug Batchelor's secretary/MIL just informed me that Doug has never spoken with Ernie Knolls.
A self-proclaimed prophet's uninvited endorsement does not necessarily sully a person's value or reputation, IMO. What other thread discusses this? I've searched Adventtalk and your post is the only one that mentions Ernie Knolls.
QuoteI read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
Sam, interesting that you would bring up Doug Batchelor to bolster your case, who has been mentioned in another thread as being highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire.
Interesting that you would bring up "highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire" in such a way as to suggest that Doug Batchelor would not bolster Sam's case. I called Amazing Facts to inquire about what relationship existed between Ernie Knolls and Doug Batchelor. Doug Batchelor's secretary/MIL just informed me that Doug has never spoken with Ernie Knolls.
A self-proclaimed prophet's uninvited endorsement does not necessarily sully a person's value or reputation, IMO. What other thread discusses this? I've searched Adventtalk and your post is the only one that mentions Ernie Knolls.
Now this is what is considered hard information, not just hearsay...
But what parts of it are true, reddogs? There are parts of it that are demonstrably false and slanted.
Thank you Sam for your posts. You have helped to make this issue more transparent and clear. Others try to muddy up the waters but your post was honest and transparent, full of truthful facts.
Those in the pews value your input and find it credible.
We also did not agree with Harold's intended prohibition against any evidence being released. Without the release of any evidence, the rumors would not cease, since ASI was already under suspicion by the disenchanted.
Thank you Sam for your posts. You have helped to make this issue more transparent and clear. Others try to muddy up the waters but your post was honest and transparent, full of truthful facts.
Those in the pews value your input and find it credible.
Junebug, you have a right to speak for yourself and maybe your close friends, but isn't it somewhat presumptious to give a stamp of approval for the rest of us? :dunno:
Thank you Sam for your posts. You have helped to make this issue more transparent and clear. Others try to muddy up the waters but your post was honest and transparent, full of truthful facts.
Those in the pews value your input and find it credible.
Junebug, you have a right to speak for yourself and maybe your close friends, but isn't it somewhat presumptious to give a stamp of approval for the rest of us? :dunno:
No I don't remember. I remember that Danny/3abn were quite willing to allow ASI to mediate but low and behold ASI put out a public statement that Mrs. Shelton's side were not willing to follow all the rules and guidelines. Surely you have read that statement as that is one of the many things that Mr. Pickle and Joy have published. To read that statement and then declare that Danny/3abn didn't want to go through ASI is incomprehensible to me.
Now Sam, your statement above comes across as if you are a bald face liar. How can you say such a thing?
Harold Lance was quite clear to us that both sides were to have input into the rules. Here you make it sound as if the rules were predetermined, and that we weren't to have any input into the rules.
You should have said that both sides could not agree as to what the rules were to be. That would have been accurate.
Another thing you say above that makes you look like a liar is that you refer to me as part of "Mrs. Shelton's side." I made it quite clear that that was an inappropriate label.
It was not known what his interest was in the matter until Linda later identified Joy as her representative. Joy then introduced Pickle and Matthews as part of Linda's team. Since that time Joy, Pickle and Matthews always were included in any correspondence sent to Linda.
???
It became clear that Joy, Pickle and Matthews had interests far beyond the issues that ASI had agreed to consider.
Thank you Sam for your posts. You have helped to make this issue more transparent and clear. Others try to muddy up the waters but your post was honest and transparent, full of truthful facts.
Those in the pews value your input and find it credible.
Junebug, you have a right to speak for yourself and maybe your close friends, but isn't it somewhat presumptious to give a stamp of approval for the rest of us? :dunno:
Get use to the idea that in court, under the scrutiny of Juris Prudence, 3ABN is a loser!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Thank you Sam for your posts. You have helped to make this issue more transparent and clear. Others try to muddy up the waters but your post was honest and transparent, full of truthful facts.
Those in the pews value your input and find it credible.
QuoteI read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
Sam, interesting that you would bring up Doug Batchelor to bolster your case, who has been mentioned in another thread as being highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire.
Interesting that you would bring up "highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire" in such a way as to suggest that Doug Batchelor would not bolster Sam's case. I called Amazing Facts to inquire about what relationship existed between Ernie Knolls and Doug Batchelor. Doug Batchelor's secretary/MIL just informed me that Doug has never spoken with Ernie Knolls.
A self-proclaimed prophet's uninvited endorsement does not necessarily sully a person's value or reputation, IMO. What other thread discusses this? I've searched Adventtalk and your post is the only one that mentions Ernie Knolls.[/color]
QuoteI read somewhere that Doug Batchelor, Kenneth Cox, Wintley Phipps and several others, said they would never open their books to these 2 men [Joy and Pickle] under the same circumstances.
Sam, interesting that you would bring up Doug Batchelor to bolster your case, who has been mentioned in another thread as being highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire.
Interesting that you would bring up "highly endorsed by Ernie Knolls, false prophet extraordinaire" in such a way as to suggest that Doug Batchelor would not bolster Sam's case. I called Amazing Facts to inquire about what relationship existed between Ernie Knolls and Doug Batchelor. Doug Batchelor's secretary/MIL just informed me that Doug has never spoken with Ernie Knolls.
A self-proclaimed prophet's uninvited endorsement does not necessarily sully a person's value or reputation, IMO. What other thread discusses this? I've searched Adventtalk and your post is the only one that mentions Ernie Knolls.[/color]
I suggest that you go back and look more thoroughly under Dreams and Visions.
It doesn't appear, from the Google searches I have done as well as the information received from Doug Batchelor's secretary, that Mr. Knolls has much of a following within the denomination. Doug Batchelor is certainly not a follower![/b
Perhaps the influx of new members just shows this is getting to be a popular meeting place.
Welcome to each of you!!! Have some freshly baked cookies and warm welcome hugs.
(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd252/PeacefulBe/plateofcookies.jpg)