Advent Talk
Theology Category => Sabbath School => Topic started by: Johann on January 26, 2008, 10:57:12 AM
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Jesus called a number of male disciples. Why did He not call women? Could that be because females are more religiously inclined, so they came by themselves?
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You know Johann, after thinking about your question, I think you might be on to something.
You think about women who tend to be less inhibited and more inclined to go after what they believe no matter what unashamed of needing something outside of themselves and not worrying about how it looks, sometimes men hold back and wait (not sure what they wait for ;) ) but need some "pushing" for a lack of a better word ( I think the women know what I mean, and probably the men too), help, encouragement, or maybe even another male to show them the way is OK to travel (step on out without the waiting and seeing part) and does not make them less of a man, weak or needy of something.
I could be wrong of course (it's always good to throw that in when talking male/female difference as to not insult either sex or insinuate a sexist bias). There is a reason we see more women at church then men, and it's not because there happen to be more females on the planet! It would be interesting to discuss our opinions of what those reasons could be?
In the age we live now, we can openly discuss, engage, embrace and learn of the differences between men and women - and these differences are a good thing (in spite of the times I wonder WHY WOULD GOD PUT MEN AND WOMEN TOGETHER ;) because of those differences) and I would guess that it's been an issue since the beginning of time.
One thing I have learned with really getting in there and understanding, appreciating and using these differences the way God intended (say in a marriage) is that you learn more about love and acceptance, support and respect that probably any other relationship. It's no easy thing to do, and I'm sure it's one of the top reasons marriages don't make it.
Any other ideas?
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Jesus called a number of male disciples. Why did He not call women? Could that be because females are more religiously inclined, so they came by themselves?
I had the impression that women had a well defined role in Jewish society at the time. The women were in evidence as supporters of Jesus' ministry and in hospitality roles, etc.
Was it Paul who said a little later that women should not be teaching men?
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I think we forget in the United States that women have a more subservient role in other cultures even in our enlightened age.
I am reminded of this on a regular basis because of the multi-cultural environments I have to function in from time to time...
Johann--perhaps women have a more liberated role in Scandinavia also? (Is Iceland in Scandinavia?)
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This is a thought provoking thread... Yesterday I received a very funny forward of a comedian whose entire act was about male/female brain differences.
Can't wait to see where this leads. :)
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I was wondering when someone would suggest my question should never have been asked :scratch:
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Jesus called a number of male disciples. Why did He not call women? Could that be because females are more religiously inclined, so they came by themselves?
I had the impression that women had a well defined role in Jewish society at the time. The women were in evidence as supporters of Jesus' ministry and in hospitality roles, etc.
Was it Paul who said a little later that women should not be teaching men?
Why not give us some more of your impressions, Artiste? Some claim that women were subdued in the Jewish society, then we also hear that the role of women was far superior in the Jewish society at that time that what was seen in other societies then. So, what did Paul really mean?
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I think we forget in the United States that women have a more subservient role in other cultures even in our enlightened age.
I am reminded of this on a regular basis because of the multi-cultural environments I have to function in from time to time...
Johann--perhaps women have a more liberated role in Scandinavia also? (Is Iceland in Scandinavia?)
In some respect women have a more liberated role in Iceland than anywhere else. Iceland elected the first female president in the world. She is not the president any longer, but she is still alive. Her name is Vigdís Finnbogadóttir.
Strictly speaking the Scandinavian peninsula consists of Norway, Sweden, and the northwestern part of Finland. Then Denmark was also included in the term Scandinavia. Later the term Scandinavia has been used of the Nordic Countries which include Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Iceland, Faeroe Islands, and Aaland. Certain members of the parliaments of these countries form a Nordic Parliament and there is also a form of a common government. Aaland and Faeroe Islands have a form or self-rule, but Aaland belongs to Finland, and the Faeroe Islands to Denmark.
There are still certain cultural differences. When I was 14 I lived on a farm in Central Iceland, but we were moving to a distant farm our church had just bought to establish an academy. So I saddled my mare and took off early in the morning. We made some stops when I ate my lunches and my horse fed on the gras slopes by the highway. Towards bedtime we rode to a farm near the highway, and I was greeted very friendly. When I had told my story and said where I was going the farmer told me where to put my horse for the night, his wife served me supper and showed where the guest room was. After breakfast in the morning my mare and I strolled on towards our destination.
It seems to me that Icelanders do not understand the term, "there was no room at the inn". They always find room somewhere for an unexpected visitor.
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Should we also create a Sabbath School forum here at Advent Talk? :)
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Should we also create a Sabbath School forum here at Advent Talk? :)
I wouldn't vote against it.
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This topic is now in the newly created Sabbath School forum of Advent Talk. :)
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Should we also create a Sabbath School forum here at Advent Talk? :)
It's good to have a Sabbath School Forum in here. There are people who are 'shut in' or otherwise unable to attend Sabbath School. This would prove really valuable to them. :praying:
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Jesus called a number of male disciples. Why did He not call women? Could that be because females are more religiously inclined, so they came by themselves?
Johann, I'll give the male-female role a miss, before I really get myself in deep trouble! ;)
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Why not give us some more of your impressions, Artiste? Some claim that women were subdued in the Jewish society, then we also hear that the role of women was far superior in the Jewish society at that time that what was seen in other societies then. So, what did Paul really mean?
Johann, I was thinking about this...
Paul is famous for saying that Christ is the head of the church, and a man is the head over a woman. He explains this in varous ways such as how the creation of Adam and then Eve came about. He also said that church officers should be serious, and not liars, heavy drinkers, etc. He then says that women should also be serious and not heavy drinkers, thus implying that women and church officers were mutually exclusive categories.
Women in Jewish society were known to be considered as the property of men; this could range from a respected position as a notable man's wife or a more subordiate situation where the woman was a man's property but did not have the status of a "regular" wife.
I assume that some of the above were reasons why Jesus did not call female disciples and Paul said that women should not teach men.
I have also wondered if one reason Paul said that a women shouldn't teach was because of the position that some women had had in the religion of some former surrounding pagan cultures.
As far as the position of women in societies other than Jewish, I am sure that they were significantly worse off because the restraints of the Jews' religious and moral standards would not have been present in those cases.
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From Monday's lesson, January 28, 2007:
"Jesus' act of allowing female disciples was unique. Various religious movements in that time did not include women. Some teachers said that women were emptyheaded, were not to be taught, should not be seen in public with men, and should be confined to the home and domestic arts. Yet from the earliest pages of the Gospel right up to the end, women, in one way or another, were involved in the life and mission of Jesus."
This sounds plausible, but I would appreciate some historical references that would support the idea that Jesus' allowing women disciples was unique.
The point is potentially extremely important. If Jesus bucked the culture of His times by allowing women disciples, His act of choosing 12 men to be the 12 apostles would therefore more effectively demonstrate that the roles established at the gates of Eden for men and women had not yet been abrogated.
It cannot be argued that Jesus was merely going along with the culture of His times by ordaining 12 men to be the 12 apostles if He boldly and publicly bucked the culture of the times by allowing women disciples.
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Luke 10:39 depicts Mary the sister of Martha "sitting at the Lord's feet" which is a Jewish phrase expressing discipleship. One who "sat at the feet of another" was that other's disciple (compare Acts 22:3, KJV or NRS). Luke 8:1-3 depicts women as part of His entourage along with the twelve. The evidence isn't terribly overwhelming, but Jesus was known to converse with women in a way that was culturally inappropriate (John 4).
My understanding has always been that Jesus was bucking the times; His teachings on divorce were apparently a correction of liberal Pharisaic practice of divorcing women for little or no cause (the issue was what was considered "indecent" (NIV) as per Deut 24:1), which would socially ruin them; they would have the shame of being unwanted, + having to go home to daddy, + being not-a-virgin for any subsequent suitors. In other words He was sticking up for their rights, which had the potential to be trampled on despite the protections in the Torah.
Paul lists other social barriers that were broken down at the end of Galatians 3. Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, female are all "one in Christ." Why would he bother to mention the male/female equality if it were not a new thing?
The Bible does have those lines about a woman not teaching a man, but then Priscilla is depicted as having ability/authority to teach (Acts 18:26 and, arguably, Romans 16:3). We have a woman in our own church history who has a lot of authority to teach. ;)
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We have a woman in our own church history who has a lot of authority to teach.
And who is, or was, this person?
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God's ideal purpose for women versus their less than perfect cultural status is just more evidence of why we long for the place we refer to as Heaven.
It is clear that God has called many a woman to serve in various roles throughout history, usually when men have missed the call or miserably failed. And women have the most important role that God has bestowed upon mankind: Motherhood.
Man, thank the Lord, was not called to host, nurture and build the characters that are the future of the world we live in.
I firmly acknowledge that "heaven on earth" is when the man and woman are pure help-mates manifesting Godly characters for their children and the world around them. I also
acknowledge that not all homes have acheived such a pure ideal. Therefore we are called upon to be examples and sources of inspiration that would help these less than ideal homes desire to acheive that ideal.
Man and woman must complement one another in all our roles, whatever God calls us to. It is all about the "team: God, man and woman" a human trinity of sorts. Do you realize that we will inhabit the center of the universe together as an example to all civilizations throughout eternity. We better be able to co-habitate as a team or we will not be welcome there. This is for certain.
Our practice arena is right here on the stage called earth. Our performance here is an eternal warning to the entire universe of what should not ever happen again. And a demonstration of the great cost that rebellion will bring. Man or woman, we have a designated role and a designated call to fulfill that role as we lay our souls open for the universe day by day.
It is best to accept whatever call God has given to either a man or a woman and to acknowledge that role as complement to our own as we grasp hands to defeat the enemy within and without.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gailon, in my opinion, that was a beautiful exposition on gender roles and/or various ways of fulfilling them.
Thank you!
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From Monday's lesson, January 28, 2007:
"Jesus' act of allowing female disciples was unique. Various religious movements in that time did not include women. Some teachers said that women were emptyheaded, were not to be taught, should not be seen in public with men, and should be confined to the home and domestic arts. Yet from the earliest pages of the Gospel right up to the end, women, in one way or another, were involved in the life and mission of Jesus."
This sounds plausible, but I would appreciate some historical references that would support the idea that Jesus' allowing women disciples was unique.
The point is potentially extremely important. If Jesus bucked the culture of His times by allowing women disciples, His act of choosing 12 men to be the 12 apostles would therefore more effectively demonstrate that the roles established at the gates of Eden for men and women had not yet been abrogated.
It cannot be argued that Jesus was merely going along with the culture of His times by ordaining 12 men to be the 12 apostles if He boldly and publicly bucked the culture of the times by allowing women disciples.
I don't think we are close enough to the culture of that time to be able to determine how to define "female disciples". The fact that Jesus had woman followers who had some more or less responsible roles doesn't make me personally feel that there should be a uniqueness assigned to "female disciples".
Jesus called 12 apostles who subsequently became missionaries and church leaders; they were all men.
Where Jesus went against the culture was in treating women with respect and equality in a way that might not have been considered necessary or desirable by most of the men of His time.
As far as wondering whether Jesus was only going along with the culture of His time by calling men...
Israel was established as a theocracy. God specified the rules for their behavior in the period around Sinai in great detail. Once these rules of behavior were established and followed for a period of time, they became the basis of Jewish culture. There were significant role behavior principles included in these rules.
In that case, in going along with the culture of His time, Jesus would also be going along with the basic foundation of the Hebrew nation which was originally established even before Sinai, as you say, at the gates of Eden. So then there would be no need to prove whether or not He went along with the culture at His time to verify whether the roles of men and women had been changed.
That's my opinion.
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Luke 10:39 depicts Mary the sister of Martha "sitting at the Lord's feet" which is a Jewish phrase expressing discipleship. One who "sat at the feet of another" was that other's disciple (compare Acts 22:3, KJV or NRS). Luke 8:1-3 depicts women as part of His entourage along with the twelve. The evidence isn't terribly overwhelming, but Jesus was known to converse with women in a way that was culturally inappropriate (John 4).
Paul lists other social barriers that were broken down at the end of Galatians 3. Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, female are all "one in Christ." Why would he bother to mention the male/female equality if it were not a new thing?
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The Bible does have those lines about a woman not teaching a man, but then Priscilla is depicted as having ability/authority to teach (Acts 18:26 and, arguably, Romans 16:3). We have a woman in our own church history who has a lot of authority to teach. ;)
It seems like the woman sitting at the feet of Jesus was the first person to proclaim one of the most important messages of salvation, Jesus is risen, He is alive! Was it a mere coincidence this commission was given to a woman?
In modern times two men were called to be a last days prophet. After both of them refused to accept the call, the commission was given to this young girl Ellen G. Harmon.
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Could it be that a woman was honoured for the very reason that it was a woman that went there first while the men remained in hiding?
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It seems like the woman sitting at the feet of Jesus was the first person to proclaim one of the most important messages of salvation, Jesus is risen, He is alive! Was it a mere coincidence this commission was given to a woman?
I think it helpful to note that Jesus appeared to the two on the road to Emmaus and to Simon before the 12. Simon? The one who denied Him? And two lowly disciples rather than the ones at the top?
The first shall be last and the last shall be first. The ones who labored one hour get paid as much as those who labored all day long. Same old story.
In other words, Jesus' use of Mary and the other women to take the tidings was similar to His appearing to Peter and the two, and thus would not indicate a change in the roles established at the gates of Eden.
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It seems like the woman sitting at the feet of Jesus was the first person to proclaim one of the most important messages of salvation, Jesus is risen, He is alive! Was it a mere coincidence this commission was given to a woman?
I think it helpful to note that Jesus appeared to the two on the road to Emmaus and to Simon before the 12. Simon? The one who denied Him? And two lowly disciples rather than the ones at the top?
The first shall be last and the last shall be first. The ones who labored one hour get paid as much as those who labored all day long. Same old story.
In other words, Jesus' use of Mary and the other women to take the tidings was similar to His appearing to Peter and the two, and thus would not indicate a change in the roles established at the gates of Eden.
And it seems like we males still love to be proud of our gender, that we are not like these lowly females? The Lord has been good to us!
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I don't believe this has anything to do with gender in the sense of above, below, or beyond, but rather with role or function, as first established before the Fall and then re-established after the Fall.
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It seems like the woman sitting at the feet of Jesus was the first person to proclaim one of the most important messages of salvation, Jesus is risen, He is alive! Was it a mere coincidence this commission was given to a woman?
I think it helpful to note that Jesus appeared to the two on the road to Emmaus and to Simon before the 12. Simon? The one who denied Him? And two lowly disciples rather than the ones at the top?
The first shall be last and the last shall be first. The ones who labored one hour get paid as much as those who labored all day long. Same old story.
In other words, Jesus' use of Mary and the other women to take the tidings was similar to His appearing to Peter and the two, and thus would not indicate a change in the roles established at the gates of Eden.
I think it helpful to remember that Jesus came to reconcile us all--regardless of race, gender, and social status. Praise be to Him that He revealed Himself and His plan of salvation for everyone.
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Daryl, could you please explain what you see as the "role or function as first establshed before the Fall and then re-established after the Fall"?
I don't believe this has anything to do with gender in the sense of above, below, or beyond, but rather with role or function, as first established before the Fall and then re-established after the Fall.
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Yes, please, Daryl.....