Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Johann on November 12, 2010, 01:55:40 PM
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Commissioned Ministers can Lead Conferences Source: Adventist News Network
The North American Division executive committee voted overwhelmingly on Nov. 7 to allow ordained or commissioned ministers to serve as presidents of local conferences or missions within North America. According to the prepared statement "This is an issue of equality and opportunity for all leaders who hold the commissioned minister credentials." The action opens the door for men and women who hold these credentials to be seriously considered for top leadership positions.
Additionally, the committee elected a full slate of NAD leaders and departmental directors. To view the list visit nadadventist.org and click on "NAD Year-end meetings" under the section on news.
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Alrighty now! It's about time!
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Alrighty now! It's about time!
"It's about time"...now I would agree that it is a SIGN OF THE TIMES and the degree
of apostacy our church has achieved. And just how hard we are trying to "conform"
with a world-wide standard that undermines a fundamental standard of the OLD SDA
Church. A standard that clearly delineated SDA standards from a world gone awry.
While I can appreciate issues of discrimination, the role of women in society and the
church is at issue here. It is a sad day when we have abandoned traditional biblical
roles of men and women in society in favor of a most insidious apostacy that has gone
far to corrupt this world in so many ways it is difficult to enumerate them except in a
doctoral thesis.
If anyone elects to debate it further, I shall be quite compelled to take up the issue in
detail.
I will simply end this limited discourse by stating "WE SHALL REAP THE WHIRLWIND" of
this and every other apostacy. And rest assured, society has indeed paid a very heavy
price for abandoning it's Judeo Christian principles...but...it was all foretold...do we as a
church really want to go there???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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GJ, Biblical tradition has God himself setting up Deborah as the Nead of a nation. To which treaditiona re you referring?
Alrighty now! It's about time!
"It's about time"...now I would agree that it is a SIGN OF THE TIMES and the degree
of apostacy our church has achieved. And just how hard we are trying to "conform"
with a world-wide standard that undermines a fundamental standard of the OLD SDA
Church. A standard that clearly delineated SDA standards from a world gone awry.
While I can appreciate issues of discrimination, the role of women in society and the
church is at issue here. It is a sad day when we have abandoned traditional biblical
roles of men and women in society in favor of a most insidious apostacy that has gone
far to corrupt this world in so many ways it is difficult to enumerate them except in a
doctoral thesis.
If anyone elects to debate it further, I shall be quite compelled to take up the issue in
detail.
I will simply end this limited discourse by stating "WE SHALL REAP THE WHIRLWIND" of
this and every other apostacy. And rest assured, society has indeed paid a very heavy
price for abandoning it's Judeo Christian principles...but...it was all foretold...do we as a
church really want to go there???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Well, i have one question wasn't God already mad when he had to pass up a black man and a white man and go to a little white girls name E. G. White? I don't think we will reap the whirlwind or anything of the like because a woman becomes a Conference President. God never intended for us to have a church manuel or creed which trumps the bible etc... it's like the children of Israel that wanted a king soooo aweful bad when he had already advised against it. The church has long since left the principles of Adventism and taken on a cult atmosphere, ladies and men crave for positions of authority and honour while the rank and file look up to them. It is those who crave attention the opportunity to be King or President leading the people of God, and their desire to be looked up to like the President of the United States but be the leader of a greater congregation, that of heaven. ----Another sleepy morning so you will have to decipher what I am trying to say and i will comment more when I am fully awake (smile).
GJ, Biblical tradition has God himself setting up Deborah as the Nead of a nation. To which treaditiona re you referring?
Alrighty now! It's about time!
"It's about time"...now I would agree that it is a SIGN OF THE TIMES and the degree
of apostacy our church has achieved. And just how hard we are trying to "conform"
with a world-wide standard that undermines a fundamental standard of the OLD SDA
Church. A standard that clearly delineated SDA standards from a world gone awry.
While I can appreciate issues of discrimination, the role of women in society and the
church is at issue here. It is a sad day when we have abandoned traditional biblical
roles of men and women in society in favor of a most insidious apostacy that has gone
far to corrupt this world in so many ways it is difficult to enumerate them except in a
doctoral thesis.
If anyone elects to debate it further, I shall be quite compelled to take up the issue in
detail.
I will simply end this limited discourse by stating "WE SHALL REAP THE WHIRLWIND" of
this and every other apostacy. And rest assured, society has indeed paid a very heavy
price for abandoning it's Judeo Christian principles...but...it was all foretold...do we as a
church really want to go there???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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It is about time. Oh? This time came a long time ago.
In the early days of our denomination we had a female local Conference President.
Do any of you know your SDA history well enough to identify the confernce and the date?
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Phyllis Ware
Executive Secretary and Treasurer of the Central States Conference who became interim president on the death of the president, Paul Monk, in the 1990's.
Ms. Ware filled the role of President for a short tiem. However, she was not the point of my reference. We had a female Conference President in the early days of our chruch.
For more information on roles that women have played in the SDA Chruch, see: http://adventistwomensministries.org/index.php?id=58
Additional historical informaiton as to women in ministry can be obtained from: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/called/benton-08.htm
In 1900, Flora Plumber served as President of the Iowa Conference, also for a short period of time.
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The old officer corp is unlikely to allow a Woman President, she is unlikely to be political enough and might actually tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
What a horrifying thought!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Thanks Gregory. i like to educate members on the history of women in the SDA church,especially on Women's Day. Excellent!
Phyllis Ware
Executive Secretary and Treasurer of the Central States Conference who became interim president on the death of the president, Paul Monk, in the 1990's.
Ms. Ware filled the role of President for a short tiem. However, she was not the point of my reference. We had a female Conference President in the early days of our chruch.
For more information on roles that women have played in the SDA Chruch, see: http://adventistwomensministries.org/index.php?id=58
Additional historical informaiton as to women in ministry can be obtained from: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/called/benton-08.htm
In 1900, Flora Plumber served as President of the Iowa Conference, also for a short period of time.
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We are very similar to the Catholic faith in that we reverence a woman from the founding of the church, and hold her word as being the word of God, yet like the Catholic church we abhor the idea of women functioning in a role of spiritual leadership.
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So the premise that Sr propogated at the Proctor trial in 1985, that the Seventh-day Adventist church is the 2nd Largest Heirarchal church governance in the world, second only to the Roman Catholic Church, has more significance and broader application than we thought at the time?
Would that be why some independent off-shoots have gone so far as to claim the Governance of the SDA church has taken on the character of the infamous "Babylon"?
Is this why our message has been watered down to an ineffective Half Angel's Message?
Was this part of the motivation for the creation of a "non-denominational" broadcast ministry and why they cling so vehemently to their independence from the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists with a small, self perpetuating board of Ultra Conservative SDA lay people with the support of the conservative business laiety known as ASI?
Is this "cause and affect" the source of the Shelton Regime? The premise that they are those that are created to "counteract the counterfeit"? And what is the definition of the "Counterfeit"?
Getting the picture of just what motivated the support of many in the pew for a a new ministry that defied the General Conference and it's Presidents for so many years? And now they are forced to collude with the 3ABN heirarchy!!! Regardless of just how corrupt it's leadership really is???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
We are very similar to the Catholic faith in that we reverence a woman from the founding of the church, and hold her word as being the word of God, yet like the Catholic church we abhor the idea of women functioning in a role of spiritual leadership.
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It is human nature that there will always be people who cannot live in peace and comfort outside the context of war. Unless they have an enemy, real or imagined, who is in a perpetual state of attack upon themselves who will of course constitute the "righteous," their existence has no purpose or meaning. If they have no true enemy they will provoke one into existence, imagine one into reality, or more often follow someone who can provide them with one. The easiest contexts in which to formulate an enemy of satisfactory significance for a group is politics and religion. Due to the apocalyptic nature of Adventist prophetic doctrine, the SDA church tends to attract more of that type than most other denominations and cults. This is unfortunate as Adventism was founded as a church of growth rather than this strange retardation.
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Murcielago, I needs a "Like" button for this post. Very well said!
It is human nature that there will always be people who cannot live in peace and comfort outside the context of war. Unless they have an enemy, real or imagined, who is in a perpetual state of attack upon themselves who will of course constitute the "righteous," their existence has no purpose or meaning. If they have no true enemy they will provoke one into existence, imagine one into reality, or more often follow someone who can provide them with one. The easiest contexts in which to formulate an enemy of satisfactory significance for a group is politics and religion. Due to the apocalyptic nature of Adventist prophetic doctrine, the SDA church tends to attract more of that type than most other denominations and cults. This is unfortunate as Adventism was founded as a church of growth rather than this strange retardation.
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Got news for you:
The Righteous Will be at War until just before the second Coming. It is the church MILITANT!!!
If you are not at war, look around, you may just be TOO conforming and TOO comfortable with the corruption and unrighteousness at every turn. And when you take a stand against corruption and unrighteousness, you will be persecuted and face trials and tribulations. It goes with the territory.
If you do not have the backbone and FAITH to face the challenge, study, pray and listen and the message to march will come through loud and clear. YOU MUST STAND FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUSTICE AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY and it will have it's consequences, but it will build your Faith and build a little patience at the same time. Also builds character.
And if you walk resolutely in the Faith of Jesus, you will be a part of the Church Victorius!!! That is on the Right Hand of the Throne of Grace.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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2011 Year-end Meeting Report #3
NAD Votes on E 60 Policy: Conference/Mission President Eligibility
Following a two-hour discussion on October 31 concerning Policy E 60, the NAD Year-end Meeting committee members voted to reaffirm the action taken at 2010 Year-end Meeting. The committee requested the following resolution:
Whereas, the North American Division is an integral part of the World Church and respects and values the position of the General Conference as it relates to the Conference/Mission President being an ordained minister, and
Whereas, the North American Division desires compatibility in all policies of the World Church including the ones that deal with women in leadership positions,
In the spirit of equality and being sensitive to the unique needs of our field and not acting in any way contrary to the Bible nor the Spirit of Prophecy,
We hereby vote to affirm the North American Division Working Policy E 60 as is currently written in the 2010-2011 Working Policy book, which reads as follows:
E 60 Conference/Mission President
Inasmuch as the conference/mission president stands at the head of the ministry in the conference/mission and is the chief elder, or overseer of all the churches, a conference/mission president should be an ordained/commissioned minister.
According to the General Conference’s Office of General Counsel, the vote numbered 162 in favor of the affirmation and 61 against it.
Prior to the discussion of this policy, Dan Jackson, president of the North American Division, led the congregation through the hymn “Have Thine Own Way Lord” and asked for the Holy Sprit’s leading in the discussion. Also, attendees separated in small groups (about three times) to pray about the proceedings. “My desire is that at the end of this discussion everyone present says in their own mind ‘I was in the presence of the Spirit of God,’” said Jackson.
This vote will allow those who hold the commissioned ministers credentials to lead out in conferences, whether male or female, which could include treasurers, Bible workers, and educational institution presidents.
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The vote referred to comes across to me as being an open act of rebellion masqueraded as something spiritual.
Just a little bit ago, the world field voted against this very thing. See http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4799 (http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4799). And then these individuals have the audacity to vote such an affirmation through anyway, and try to give the Holy Spirit credit for it?
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Well, on some levels the denomination is democratic and people vote.
It should be noted, that the REVIEW has published that the SDA Church recognizes ordained female ministers in China--ministers who have converted hundreds of Chinese people.
In many ways, the General Conference is limited in what it leglislate that church components do.
The article that Bob references refers to an action taken at Annual Council. I personally would not be able to say that an action taken at Annual Council was an action of the World Field, althought the Annual Council does have some representatives from other countries.
In terms of authority, actions taken at the World General Conference more accurately reflects the wishes of theWorld Field than does an action of the Annual Council.
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Let's not mix up the NAD meeting with the GC Fall Council. The NAD deals only with matters that pertain to the Adventist Church in North America and not the World field. So this resolution only applies to North America.
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You are correct. I made that mistake.
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This is how it comes across to me:
The GC Autumn Council voted not to approve the NAD's request. The NAD, like a spoiled child determined to have its own way, voted to do it anyway, an open act of rebellion camouflaged as something spiritual, with the credit given to the Holy Spirit.
And the act of rebellion was intentional:
Whereas, the North American Division is an integral part of the World Church and respects and values the position of the General Conference as it relates to the Conference/Mission President being an ordained minister, and
Whereas, the North American Division desires compatibility in all policies of the World Church including the ones that deal with women in leadership positions,
The first paragraph above makes clear that those voting this resolution knew full well that the GC's position was that a conference or mission president must be an ordained minister, not a credentialed minister.
The second paragraph hypocritically expresses the intention of being in harmony with "all [GC] policies," which would include that a conference or mission president must be an ordained minister, not a credentialed minister, and then the NAD goes on to affirm a policy in direct contradiction to the position it just said it wanted to be compatible with!
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So why even have a GC? And if the NAD can thumb its nose at the GC, can a union thumb its nose at the NAD? Can a conference thumb its nose at a union? Can a local church thumb its nose at a conference? Where is all of this going to go? Congregationalism?
If the women's ordination crowd can keep pushing, pushing, pushing decade after decade, bringing up the issue again and again and again, I think it's time to revisit the issue of women elders. Perhaps the BRI committees examining the ordination issue could examine that one too.
This is at least the second debacle Elder Jackson has been involved in. I heard he was going to apologize for publicly saying that David Asscherick should have been called into his conference president's office and given a beating for sending out a letter opposing evolution, but I haven't seen Jackson's apology yet.
Consider: Jackson thinks that David Asscherick should have been beaten for sending out a letter opposing the hideous delusion of evolution. Asscherick was simply following out his convictions, convictions based on Scripture. What Scripture did Jackson have for rebelling against the GC? The NAD resolution certainly doesn't give any Bible verses which clearly show that credentialed ministers must be permitted to be conference or mission presidents. If Jackson was right about Asscherick needing a beating for opposing evolution, shouldn't Jackson be beaten for opposing the GC simply because he or others were upset that they didn't get their way at Autumn Council?
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Bob, in the interestes of accuracy, let me correct a minor error or yours: An ordained minister in the SDA Chruch is a credentialed minister. I believe you meant to say, "commissioned minister." By the way, a commissioned minister is also a credentialed minister. Check your current YEARBOOK if you doubt that.
Just a minor typo of the type that all of us often make.
In the interests of accuracy, on my part, yes it is possible for one to be ordained or commissioned but not be credentialed. It would have been more accurate if I had said above that ordained and commissioned ministers may be credentialed. They are seperate processes.
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For those who may want to know the differences between credentialing, ordination and commissioning.
In both ordination and commissioning a formal ceremony is held (currently the practice in the SDA Chruch)in which an individual is set apart for a specific type of ministry within the SDA Chruch. The fullest level of ministry is conferred by ordination. The second level is that of commissioning. While most people who are commissioned are women, there are males who are commissioned. Whether male or female, commissioned ministers can perform most duties of an ordained minister but cannot perform a few. However, I point out that there is a General Vice President of the General Conference who is female. However she was given an Administrative Ministrative Credential (2009 YEARBOOK). Prior to his election to GC President, she served on an equal footing with Ted Wilson who held the credentials of an ordained ministers.
It should be noted that in the early days of the SDA Church some people were granted the credentials of an ordained minister without the public ceremoney of the laying on of hands. Others had a public ceremoney. E.g. Both Ellen White and her husband were g'iven the credentials of an ordained minister, but there is no record that either had a public ceremony in which hands were laid upon them.
Both ordination and commissioning are a one-time event which, unless revoked, remain valid for life. Credentials are granted to show current authorization to act in the functions granted by ordination or commissioning. IOW, a credentialed minister is authorized to act in that role.
As an interesting point of interest, there were a few years in which the Church authorized a few of its clergy to fill that role by what is called a Certificate of Endorsement. That happened to me for several years. I remained ordained, but I did not have credentials. However, as I had a Certificate of Endorsement, I continued to act in the role of an ordained minister. After a few years, that changed and those clergy who were endorsed were gain granted credentials, which I currently have and are issued by the North American Division. That itself is a recent change as until recently my credentials were issued by the General Conference.
Does any of this make sense to you? I Leave that to you to decide. :) :)
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Bob asked:
So why even have a GC? And if the NAD can thumb its nose at the GC, can a union thumb its nose at the NAD? Can a conference thumb its nose at a union? Can a local church thumb its nose at a conference? Where is all of this going to go? Congregationalism?
The answer to your question is: On some levels yes, up to a point. However, in my opinion, the SDA Church has a long way to go before it is congregationalist.
Are you aware of how many SDA congregations in the United States are locally owned and not owned by the LocalConference?
NOTE: I do not know the number. But when I was a young minister just out of the Seminary, in my first district two of my three congregations owned the property and building and the Conference only owned the third.
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However, I point out that there is a General Vice President of the General Conference who is female. However she was given an Administrative Ministrative Credential (2009 YEARBOOK). Prior to his election to GC President, she served on an equal footing with Ted Wilson who held the credentials of an ordained ministers.
This indicates that the NAD was not rebelling against the GC but rather taking the same steps as the GC has followed for some years.
E.g. Both Ellen White and her husband were given the credentials of an ordained minister, but there is no record that either had a public ceremony in which hands were laid upon them.
I have read that James White had already been ordained as a minister in a different denomination before he joined the Advent Movement, and therefore his ordination was accepted as valid in the Seventh-day Adventist Church when it was organized.
Ellen White received her commission from above. She received her certificate as an ordained minister from the General Conference.
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James White was baptized into the "Christian" denomination at the age of 15 (That would be either 1836 or 1837). He accepted the teachings of William Miller in September of 1842 and immediately embarked upon a mission to convert people to Millerism during the Winter of 1842 - 1843. His preaching resulted in more than 1,000 people to convert to Millerism. As a result, the "Christian" denomination ordained James White in April of 1843.
So, yes, it is correct that James White was ordained in a public ceremony by another denomination. But, it should not be said that the early advent believers did not publicly ordain him due to the previous ordination. In the earliest years there was neither a concern as to credentials nor ordination. People, as did James white in that Winter evangelism series simplky went out on their own. As they began to develop they began to issue letters (credentials so to speak) identifying people as valid representatives. With the passage of time, they began to ordain in public ceremonies. But, that did not affect whose lilke James White who had long served them.
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However, I point out that there is a General Vice President of the General Conference who is female. However she was given an Administrative Ministrative Credential (2009 YEARBOOK). Prior to his election to GC President, she served on an equal footing with Ted Wilson who held the credentials of an ordained ministers.
This indicates that the NAD was not rebelling against the GC but rather taking the same steps as the GC has followed for some years.
How so? Did the GC change a policy or its constitution to permit women to fill the office of VP? And even if they did, how does that change the fact that the GC's Autumn Council just voted down the NAD's request, and the NAD soon thereafter voted to do anyway what the GC had just said no to?
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The NAD was scheduled to vote on that issue prior to the Autumn Council. They were asked not to take that vote at that time. As agreement was reached that they would not vote at that time if they would be allowed of take a vote on the issue after the GC had voted at Autumn Council.
One might argue that thel vote that was taken was open rebellion.
Or, one could argue that the agreement to allow the vote to be taken after the Autumn Council was an understanding that the NAD could allow female commissioned ministers to become conference presidents based upon two aspects of this issue:
1) It was probably well known that the NAD would vote to allow. That vote then would be binding under most circumstances in accord with the NAD Constitution. NOTE: I am aware that this could be challenged. But, it is unlikely that the GC would want to make that challenge.
2) At a time that a female would be up for consideration for conference president the GC would still be able to oppose such and in a pre-emptive strike work to keep such a persom from being recommended for the position.
NOTE: The battle to keep women from such posiitons has not been lost. This is only a mild setback.
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The NAD was scheduled to vote on that issue prior to the Autumn Council. They were asked not to take that vote at that time. As agreement was reached that they would not vote at that time if they would be allowed of take a vote on the issue after the GC had voted at Autumn Council.
Was this agreement published anywhere? I do not recall hearing or reading this before.
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http://www.atoday.org/article.php?id=907
Bob:
The above URL is of interest in a couple of areas. One is the policy on local hires. The second is on the issue of female conference presidents. It should be noted that this article does not say exactly what I said. So, I do not present this as the final answer to your question. It does point out that the NAD had already put into place a policy that allowed for Commissioned Ministers to become Conference Presidents. Therefore, such a situation would require that the NAD vote to either become compliant with what was voted at the GC Annual Council or to reject becommling compliant.
NOTE: I am still looking to see if I can document what I stated,as you have asked.
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From http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19 (http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19):
When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.
So according to the NAD's own website, the vote by Autumn Council was the vote of final authority.
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From http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19 (http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19):
When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.
So according to the NAD's own website, the vote by Autumn Council was the vote of final authority.
"Should" is an interesting word - also as used within the Church. Here is a dictionary definition: "I should think so!"
I may surprise some but the working policy of the General Conference might not valid in a local conference unless that local conference has voted to make it valid within its territory!
You can take this even to the level of a local church. The General Conference has no power to dis-fellowship any member if the local church will not do it. The local conference or union conference has the right to dismiss a pastor or any other worker on their pay-list, but they have no authority to dis-fellowship that pastor as a member of a local church. The conference can retaliate by dismissing the whole church from the conference and then accept individual members into the Conference Church, if such a church exists in the local field.
Neither is the Church Manual valid in a local field which prefers to make its own manual, and I know of such instances. I have argued a case with the General Conference Church Manual in my hand and was told the local field had never adopted it for local use.
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http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4877
A World-wide study of ordination is being launched. If the reports are ready the question will be taken up at the next GC session in 2015.
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From http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19 (http://www.nadadventist.org/article.php?id=19):
When differences arise in or between organizations and institutions, appeal to the next higher organization is proper until it reaches the General Conference in session, or the Executive Committee at the Annual Council. During the interim between these sessions, the Executive Committee shall constitute the body of final authority on all questions where a difference of viewpoint may develop.
So according to the NAD's own website, the vote by Autumn Council was the vote of final authority.
"Should" is an interesting word - also as used within the Church. Here is a dictionary definition: "I should think so!"
The word used was "shall" rather than "should," which carries a slightly different connotation. The former says what will be done, and the latter says what ought to be done but might not be.
I may surprise some but the working policy of the General Conference might not valid in a local conference unless that local conference has voted to make it valid within its territory!
I think this is how it should be. But weren't the divisions originally part of the General Conference, not separate and distinct organizations? And if so, are they still?
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But weren't the divisions originally part of the General Conference, not separate and distinct organizations? And if so, are they still?
At least until recently a Division President was regarded as a Vice President of the General Conference - and it seems like some of them made us of their "right" to retire by spending their last years of work at headquarters.
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Thel official organizaitonal structors of the SDA Chruch are as follows:
Local Church
Local Conference
Union Conference
General Conference
NOTE: To simplify it I have not referenced "missions" on any level. You will note that there is no such thing in the organized structure of the SDA Church as a Division. A Division is simply a part of the General Conference. The Division is expected to conduct the work of the General Conference in the area of the World that constitutes the Division. In doing that, the Division has traditionally had some ability to define how it would conduct the work of the General Conference.
NOTE: I am not saying one way or the other as to whether or not the NAD has the authority to place women into positions as Conference President. But, keep in mind that the GC has a female Vice President.
The issue is complex and not as simple as it might seem.
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In some places the Union and Conference are united or the Conference is directly under the Division.
Credentials seem to be given by the Division and not the general Conference
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Credentials: Most often they are given by the local Conference. Some are given by the General Conference and some by the Division and some by the Union Conference. My Credentials have mostly been issued by the General Conference. However, at the present mine are issued by the Division.
There are some unusual circumstancs as to the relationship between a local Conference and what organilzation is over it.
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I have concluded that the current administration of General Conference and the Division are yet another example of creaping compromise. And the finest political gamesmen the church will afford.
While sold to the world church a year ago as revivalists and reformers they have turned out to be the political animals I had suspected they would be. This political compromise does indeed fly in the face of the General Conference in Session. Is it rebellion? They do not look at it that way but the same divination that lead to the Harris Pine debacle still leads the men at the top of our church. Like Fathers, Like Sons!!!
They are neither revivalists not reformers. They play a carefully balanced political game to keep all the people happy all the time!!!! But they do not try to keep God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit happy at all and are the very personification of Laodicean leadership!!! IE: They are not REMNANT leadership. They will not lead us into the Loud Cry although, we will cry loudly from the mistakes made by these political fiascos!!! And we are destined to repeat history as more institutions meet the fate of Atlantic Union College. Perhaps, even the General Conference Corporation itself.
Rest assured that the Lord will manifest His Power within the Church in His Time and these frauds of divine leadership will be swept aside as surely as a Sunday Law shall come!!! They will either revive and reform before that Law or they will be swept into the crowds of examples of our brightest lights gone out and will be the Remnant's greatest detractors!!!
A very long time ago I came to the conclusion that "Credentials" whether by Ordination (the laying on of hands) or by Commission (the imperfect foundational creeping compromise) were meaningless in that zone just past the belt of Orion if it is not joindered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the "anointed" all too frequently demonstrated by the fruits of the Spirit that if they were connected to a spirit it was all too often the wrong spirit. Therefore, the laying on of hands is a void act if not done in concert with the Holy Spirit and the anointing that went with it is a nullity!!!
Yes, we have a lot of nullity in the ministry today and the realization of this most fundamental premise will help us recognize the Laodicean condition we have attained so completely...and awaken us to the need to Answer the Knock at the Door if we are to ever become a Remnant. And be certain that those "Anointed" in the near future will not be anointed by hands, but rather "Anointed By The Spirit" and will wax HOT with concern for lost souls. BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM!!!
And we shall share care not at all for this Fall Council Compromise as it will bear no weight whatsoever upon the work to be done by the manifestation of His Spirit within the REMNANT Church, and the LOUD CRY that will result.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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A very long time ago I came to the conclusion that "Credentials" whether by Ordination (the laying on of hands) or by Commission (the imperfect foundational creeping compromise) were meaningless in that zone just past the belt of Orion if it is not joindered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
You sure got that right!!!!
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On November 7, Bob posted a comment that suggested that opined as to a "final authority" in the matter of women in ministry.
On November 16, 2011 in a second Division of the General Conference a vote was taken that impacts on women in ministry:
"16 November 2011 Becici, Montenegro [Miroslav Pujic, Breaking News, tedNEWS] Today, forty-five delegates and twenty five invitees (union secretaries and treasurers) from the thirteen Unions and three attached Fields, which constitute the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Trans-European region (TED), discussed a Motion on Women in Leadership. After prayer, the 91% of the delegates voted by secret ballot to express approval of the motion at the annual year-end executive committee meetings. The invitees affirmed the motion by a similar per cent in a secret ballot.
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The committee expressed sadness and disappointment at the response of the Annual Council and recognised the Bible-based conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a fellowship of the “priesthood of all believers” and that the Holy Spirit calls and equips men and women with various gifts, including that of leadership. For many within the TED it is an ethical and legal matter that strongly affects their consciences.
The committee prayerfully voted to affirm that each union can apply parity between male and female pastors within the framework of TED’s existing policies and guidelines for ordained/commissioned minister credentials.
As far as the North-American Division decision is concerned, to keep the variance they asked for in 2009 and then voted both in 2010 and 2011, we understand their need for this and regret that Annual Council was unwilling to endorse their decision.
Dr Bertil Wiklander, TED President says: "What works best for the TED at this time is to let all know where we stand and what we want regarding women in leadership, while doing all we can to promote women as pastors and leaders in our church within the working policy. We will continue to work with our unions to see how we can support and enable the many women who the Holy Spirit has clearly called to leadership.” To read full voted document please click here [tedNEWS]
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tedNEWS Staff: Miroslav Pujic, director; Deana Stojkovic, editor
119 St Peter's Street, St Albans, Herts, AL1 3EY, England
E-mail: tednews@ted-adventist.org
Website: www.ted-adventist.org
tedNEWS is an information bulletin issued by the communication department of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Trans-European Division.
You are free to re-print any portion of the bulletin without need for special permission. However, we kindly request that you identify tedNEWS whenever you publish these materials.”
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For those who would lilke to read what was voted, here it the motion that was voted:
"Motion on Women in Leadership
• We maintain our Bible-based conviction that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is a fellowship of the “priesthood of all believers” and that the Holy Spirit calls and equips men and women with various gifts, including that of leadership. Ministry in the New Testament is based on spiritual gifts. It is the fellowship of believers that recognises and endorses these gifts and sends out women and men for service.
• We express our sadness and disappointment at the decision of the Annual Council. We prayerfully and sincerely believe it will damage the work of God’s people in many parts of the TED.
• We find it difficult to understand why the election of a commissioned minister by a local constituency could harm other world divisions, since a commissioned minister serving as president only impacts the local organisation.
• We believe that ordination or the “setting aside” of members, regardless of gender, for leadership in the church is made by prayer and the laying on of hands in order to confirm the presence of the spiritual gift of leadership, as the Bible teaches, and not to convey a particular quality of “priestly holiness” or spiritual status.
• We recognise that changes to the bold print in the model constitutions in the TED Working Policy must be approved by the General Conference. We have maintained this position within the TED when unions or conferences have been tempted to walk an independent path. However we request the General Conference to understand that for many this is an ethical and legal matter that strongly affects their consciences.
• We recognise that the World Church has approved a timetable for studying the theology of ordination with a view to bring a proposal to the General Conference Annual Council in 2014. We regret the extended timeline as it places some unions/conferences/missions/fields in an ethical and legal dilemma.
• We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women’s ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population. After consultation with the TED administration and approval by the appropriate church governance body, such unions/conferences/missions/fields may apply parity between male and female pastors on the grounds of the TED’s existing policies and guidelines for ordained/commissioned minister credentials. [tedNEWS]"
Copyright © 2010 Trans-European Division.
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• We recognise that while waiting for the World Church to establish the Biblical theology of ordination, there are unions/conferences/missions/fields within the TED where the issues of women’s ordination and their election to leadership positions are matters of ethical integrity and individual conscience which may challenge the church and undermine our sharing of the Adventist message with the vast majority of the population.
The vast majority? Really? I find that difficult to believe.
Regardless, the statement fails to note that there are those out there, both men and women, who will hesitate to listen to the Adventist message if Adventism does not maintain the biblical distinction between the genders in spiritual leadership roles. I know, because I have talked with such folks.
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Bob: The statement referenced the vast majority of the population. That population was clearly non-SDA and potentially non-Christian. It was stated that it was a population that needed to have the Adventist message shared with them--not SDA. It was a population that exists in the Trans European Division,not North America. Do you challenge the statement in the context of a non-SDA population in the TED?
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Bob: The statement referenced the vast majority of the population. That population was clearly non-SDA and potentially non-Christian. It was stated that it was a population that needed to have the Adventist message shared with them--not SDA. It was a population that exists in the Trans European Division,not North America. Do you challenge the statement in the context of a non-SDA population in the TED?
Yes, I challenged that statement, if "challenge" is the right word, because I highly doubt that the vast majority of the population cares that much that they would refuse to study the Bible with someone who belonged to a church that followed the biblical gender distinctions regarding spiritual leadership.
Read what I wrote again, and you should be able to see that I was referring to non-Adventists in what I wrote.
So what is next? Will the TED ask to change their main day of worship to Sunday so that the vast majority of their field will be more apt to listen to the Adventist message, which at that point would no longer exist? I ask that question only to point out that what the vast majority of the population thinks really doesn't matter. The question is, What does the Bible say? Whenever we put greater stock in public opinion than in Scripture, we are in serious trouble.
Note that not one specific Scripture was cited in support of their position that there is no distinction in the leadership roles of men and women in the New Testament. Not one. Why not?
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O.K. I just wanted clairfication as to your comment. You havea clairfied it. Thanks,
GM
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To Avoid Misunderstanding
17 November 2011, St Albans, United Kingdom [tedNEWS] In order to avoid any misunderstanding in connection with the vote on Women in Leadership by the TED Executive Committee, on 16 November 2011, the Trans-European Division (TED) administration has issued the following statement:
"We wish to underline that the TED has not voted any changes in the GC/TED policies or model constitutions. The TED is granting unions permission to manage the matter of parity between male and female pastors on the basis of TED’s Guidelines for Commissioned Pastors as voted in the TED Executive Committee in 2009, based on consultations with the TED and an authorisation by the appropriate union governing body. The TED is not authorising ordination of women within its territory but is waiting for the General Conference to conduct its study of the theology of ordination."
The Trans-European Division Administration
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A very long time ago I came to the conclusion that "Credentials" whether by Ordination (the laying on of hands) or by Commission (the imperfect foundational creeping compromise) were meaningless in that zone just past the belt of Orion if it is not joindered by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
You sure got that right!!!!
Agreed!
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If the church structure is as follows: Local Church, Conference, Union, GC in which the NAD is a part of the GC, then how can any Division of the GC go against the GC as two Divisions seem to have done?
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Why do I keep timing out in my Quick Reply posts?
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Because each Division is administered by a Division Committee. The Division President, who is a General Conference officer is only one voice. It is a powerful voice, but that voice is not all-powerful. When the "crunch" comes the Division President may be able to "moderate" an action or proposal, but not totally do away with it.
Why? Because EGW wrote against "kingly power" in very strong language. That is something that our current GC President subscribes to. He has a history of accepting the actions of committes with which he disagrees. He may attempt to establish committes that are constituted with people who are likely to agree with him. But, he cannot always do that. He accepts commitee decisions.
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Because each Division is administered by a Division Committee. The Division President, who is a General Conference officer is only one voice. It is a powerful voice, but that voice is not all-powerful. When the "crunch" comes the Division President may be able to "moderate" an action or proposal, but not totally do away with it.
Why? Because EGW wrote against "kingly power" in very strong language. That is something that our current GC President subscribes to. He has a history of accepting the actions of committes with which he disagrees. He may attempt to establish committes that are constituted with people who are likely to agree with him. But, he cannot always do that. He accepts commitee decisions.
He is also known for making independent decisions under certain circumstances.
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If the church structure is as follows: Local Church, Conference, Union, GC in which the NAD is a part of the GC, then how can any Division of the GC go against the GC as two Divisions seem to have done?
I was told recently that it was just voted to give the divisions their own legal existence. So wouldn't that add a legal level between unions and the GC?
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If the church structure is as follows: Local Church, Conference, Union, GC in which the NAD is a part of the GC, then how can any Division of the GC go against the GC as two Divisions seem to have done?
I was told recently that it was just voted to give the divisions their own legal existence. So wouldn't that add a legal level between unions and the GC?
That explains quite a bit.
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I did not know that.
Yes, it would seem to establish the Division on a seperat level.
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I did not know that.
Yes, it would seem to establish the Division on a seperat level.
There are constant changes all around us, even where we think all is solid!
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General Vice President Pastor Artur Stele and Under-Treasurer Tom Evans attended the meetings as representatives from the Adventist World Church Headquarters, and to provide counsel.
. . .
Women in Leadership
Trans-European Division
. . .
tedNEWS Staff: Miroslav Pujic, director; Deana Stojkovic, editor
119 St Peter's Street, St Albans, Herts, AL1 3EY, England
E-mail: tednews@ted-adventist.org
Website: www.ted-adventist.org
tedNEWS is an information bulletin issued by the communication department of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Trans-European Division.
You are free to re-print any portion of the bulletin without the need for special permission. However, we kindly request that you identify tedNEWS whenever you publish these materials.
Date issued: 21 November 2011
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Just released by the Adventist Review on their website:
BY MIROSLAV PUJIC, Trans-European Division communication director
Seventh-day Adventist Church unions in the Trans-European Division, or TED, “can apply parity between male and female pastors” using current TED guidelines, division leaders voted November 14 during year-end meetings in Montenegro.
“We wish to underline that the TED has not voted any changes in the GC/TED policies or model constitutions,” a subsequent divisional statement said. “The TED is not authorizing ordination of women within its territory, but is waiting for the General Conference to conduct its study of the theology of ordination.”
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Bertil Wiklander, TED president, said: "What works best for the TED at this time is to let all know where we stand and what we want regarding women in leadership, while doing all we can to promote women as pastors and leaders in our church within the working policy. We will continue to work with our unions to see how we can support and enable the many women who the Holy Spirit has clearly called to leadership.”
-- with Adventist Review staff, and reporting from Adventist News Network