Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Bob Pickle on January 14, 2009, 07:59:39 PM
-
Under note 14 on p. 11 it says that they bought $8,031.11 of books authored by a member of management. That's down from the nearly $3 million bought in 2006, and lower than any number since at least 2001.
Yet cost of goods given away is still reported on p. 13 as being more than $1 million.
Since Remnant reported royalty payments of I think around $200,000 on their 2007 Form 990, how can it be that 3ABN only bought $8,031.11 of books written by Danny?
Any ideas?
-
Aaahhhggg!! I forgot that the size of files allowed to be uploaded was increased. Never mind about my offering to send a copy to anyone who wants it - it is right here!
-
I read the auditors page 1 & 2. The more things change, the more they stay the same!
They still don't follow GAAP!
I have been asking for almost 5 years where their consolidated Financials were. Hey, they don't have any!
They are still have problems valuing their assets! This problem was brought up on the 2000 audit and every audit after that! They are slow learners! Or, could this be done this way on purpose? That is my guess, because they do this, all financial statements are not prepared correctly, thus they are definitely not a fair representation of 3ABN's financial position!
Not presenting expenses of its foreign facilities is a fine way to hide funds and expenses! That is a very serious matter as far as I am concerned! For all these years the auditors have told then they are required to use GAAP. Do they listen? No! Do they care? No.
I really have to go to bed. I will read the rest later this week.
-
Note 16 says that the Russian branch "is not a separate legal entity."
However, on p. 133 of the property tax case record (vol. 1) (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/administrative-record-submitted-by-defense-for-04-mr-15-vol-1.pdf), Danny Shelton testified under oath:
Well, we have the largest protestant facility in the Ex-Soviet Union. It’s probably 130,000 square foot facility that we raised the money for and purchased and we started a corporation over there, and a corporation that’s a charitable tax exempt organization, which is in Nizhniy Novgorod, Russia, which is the third largest city and we allowed the Seventh-day Adventist Church, their facilities in Russia, because of lack of finances, we share them.
And from p. 190:
Q. Before I leave the questions about the employees, you mentioned salaries that you pay in Russia.
A. Yes.
Q. Does Three Angels pay the salaries of those individuals? -
A. Yes, we do.
Q. Do they directly work as employees of the Three Angels Broadcasting?
A. Our Russian branch, yes.
Q. Is that a separate corporation?
A. Yes.
And from pp. 349-350 of the property tax case record (vol. 2) (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/administrative-record-submitted-by-defense-for-04-mr-15-vol-2.pdf):
Q. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Shelton.
You indicated, I guess maybe I’m confused from your testimony yesterday, because I think you indicated that the Russian facility was actually owned by a different entity’ other than Three Angels Broadcasting Network, correct?
A. For legal reasons we can’t call it Three Angels Broadcasting, but I’m still the Director and the President and I’m still -- it’s still Three Angels but it’s Three Angels of Russia. But for legal purposes the governments won’t allow us to do it. The same way with the Philippines, because I have to have national board members too as well.
Confusing, isn't it? Danny testifies under oath that there is a separate organization, a separate corporation in Russia, and that the employees in Russia work for that separate corporation.
Yet the audited financial statement claims that the Russian branch is not a separate legal entity.
The appearance of this discrepancy is as bad as 3ABN's 2004 990 claiming that Linda Shelton never was a board member or officer at any point in time during 2004, 3ABN's 2005 990 claiming that Nick Miller never was a board member at any point in time during 2005, and 3ABN's 2007 990 claiming that Jim Gilley, Stan Smith, Larry Romrell, Garwin McNeilus, and Max Trevino never were board members at any point in time during 2007.
Am I missing something regarding Russia, or am I seeing this correctly?
-
Don't they also have corporations in Peru and Canada? Does anyone remember them talking about owning tv stations in Papua New Guinea?
-
Don't they also have corporations in Peru and Canada? Does anyone remember them talking about owning tv stations in Papua New Guinea?
Note 14 claims that there are separate legal entities in Peru, Brazil, and the Philippines. However, while claiming to provide the majority of revenue to the corporation in Brazil, they failed to report one cent of money going there.
Note 14 in the 2004 audited financial statement (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/3abn-financial-statements-2004.pdf) reported a corporation in Canada named Three Angels Christian Communications.
From pp. 370-371 of the property tax case record (vol. 2) (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/administrative-record-submitted-by-defense-for-04-mr-15-vol-2.pdf):
MS. RHOADES: Now, Mr. Shelton, you’ve mentioned that you’ve got the Three Angels Broadcasting I think you said it was New Guinea, you’ve got your local Three Angels Broadcasting
Are there any other subsidiary or related corporations to Three Angels Broadcasting Network that existed in the year 2000 and 2001?
THE WITNESS: 2000 I believe the Philippines.
Did we mention the Philippines? Russia, of course.
I don’t know if we were set up in 2001. Yeah, 2001 we would have been I believe for New Guinea. Russia, New Guinea, the Philippines, and let’s see.
Any other entities outside the United States?
So we have separate corporations, according to factually challenged Danny Shelton, in Papua New Guinea, Russia, and the Philippines.
So that gives us the following at least:
- Brazil
- Canada
- Papua New Guinea
- Peru
- Philippines
- Russia
-
As a side note, 3ABN's 2001 financial statement (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/3abn-financial-statements-2001.pdf) at note 14 claims that 3ABN purchased $75,000 of books from an entity owned by two board members.
That must be D & L Publishing, and the two board members must be Danny and Linda Shelton.
That agrees with Danny's 2001 tax return which treated D & L as a partnership, jointly owned by Linda.
However, on Danny's 2002 tax return, filed sometime in 2003, no longer lists Linda as an owner.
That makes it appear that Danny was contemplating getting rid of Linda before Dr. Abrahamsen ever came along.
It also raises questions about Danny's testimony on his affidavit in Minnesota in Feb. 2008:
D&L Publishing was an unregistered D.B.A. that I used as a sole proprietorship for publishing purposes during the time I was married to my ex-wife, Linda Shelton.
How could Danny say D&L was a sole proprietorship when it was clearly a partnership in 2001, according to Danny himself on his 2001 tax return filed in 2002, and according to 3ABN's 2001 financial statement also filed in 2002?
-
When did Danny step down as president?
Under note 14 on p. 11 it says that they bought $8,031.11 of books authored by a member of management. That's down from the nearly $3 million bought in 2006, and lower than any number since at least 2001.
Yet cost of goods given away is still reported on p. 13 as being more than $1 million.
Since Remnant reported royalty payments of I think around $200,000 on their 2007 Form 990, how can it be that 3ABN only bought $8,031.11 of books written by Danny?
Any ideas?
-
He announced Jim Gilley as being president on Sept. 6, 2007, in the same broadcast in which he said that Christians who say that he is being investigated by the IRS are enemies of the gospel.
-
You know....sometimes you damage the wheat when you are rooting out tares. Is it better to let the tares be or to destroy the wheat? What if you don't care about the wheat just as long as you get those pereceived tares...cause really until the judgement you won't know for sure which is which....... Do you care about the damage to the wheat??? Is there a way to accomplish your weeding without destroying everything around it?
I know this sounds like a nonsequitur but it really isn't .......when you think about it.
-
Go ahead and elaborate more about what you are thinking.
-
Actually Bob, I am more interested in what you have to say? I've said all I intend to...
actually....I've changed my mind....
Bob I think you have an unhealthy obsession regarding this 3abn thing..We can't force God's timing..... There is so much out there now that any more isn't going to matter. I also think you might have a better legal case if you stop the message board trial.
Maybe the best thing to do is promote Hope, SAFE TV, LLBN or other regional Adventist stations and encourage your friends to do the same. I've been listening to HOPE TV on my computer while I work and it has been such a blessing..and a nice change of pace from talk radio. You should try it...it really does give one another perspective...I plan on buying a glorystar system when I get my income tax return so that I can have my two favorite SDA networks again SAFE TV is local to my area and I've been there since it's beginning.
Now, I've really said all I intend to..
-
Australia? Just who handles all the finances and does the accounting for these offices? This should be reported to the State Department. They take care of broadcasting on foreign soil.
Don't they also have corporations in Peru and Canada? Does anyone remember them talking about owning tv stations in Papua New Guinea?
Note 14 claims that there are separate legal entities in Peru, Brazil, and the Philippines. However, while claiming to provide the majority of revenue to the corporation in Brazil, they failed to report one cent of money going there.
Note 14 in the 2004 audited financial statement (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/3abn-financial-statements-2004.pdf) reported a corporation in Canada named Three Angels Christian Communications.
From pp. 370-371 of the property tax case record (vol. 2) (http://www.save-3abn.com/media/administrative-record-submitted-by-defense-for-04-mr-15-vol-2.pdf):
MS. RHOADES: Now, Mr. Shelton, you’ve mentioned that you’ve got the Three Angels Broadcasting I think you said it was New Guinea, you’ve got your local Three Angels Broadcasting
Are there any other subsidiary or related corporations to Three Angels Broadcasting Network that existed in the year 2000 and 2001?
THE WITNESS: 2000 I believe the Philippines.
Did we mention the Philippines? Russia, of course.
I don’t know if we were set up in 2001. Yeah, 2001 we would have been I believe for New Guinea. Russia, New Guinea, the Philippines, and let’s see.
Any other entities outside the United States?
So we have separate corporations, according to factually challenged Danny Shelton, in Papua New Guinea, Russia, and the Philippines.
So that gives us the following at least:
- Brazil
- Canada
- Papua New Guinea
- Peru
- Philippines
- Russia
-
There is so much out there now that any more isn't going to matter.
I've felt the same. If it weren't for the lawsuit and the unanswered questions that have to be answered for the case, my time would be spent doing other things.
I also think you might have a better legal case if you stop the message board trial.
In what way do you think this would be so?
-
I also think you might have a better legal case if you stop the message board trial.
In what way do you think this would be so?
[/quote]
It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case. You have to think about how the Judge or the other side's legal team can use what you put out for public consumption...and you also have to think about the baby christians out there...and how this might cause them to reject their new faith...
-
It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.
On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?
You have to think about how the Judge or the other side's legal team can use what you put out for public consumption...
I give that thought as well.
and you also have to think about the baby christians out there...and how this might cause them to reject their new faith...
That is a legitimate concern.
-
This thread is about 3ABN's 2007 financial statement, which is required by Illinois law to be open to public inspection, despite Mollie Steenson's sworn testimony that they don't let anyone see them. The state of Illinois has decided that non-profit organizations must be accountable to the public from which they solicit donations.
3ABN reported purchasing only $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books the entire year of 2007, while at the same time they reported over $1 million in cost of goods given away. And Remnant reported around $200,000 in royalty payments for the same time period.
So did 3ABN really only purchase $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007? Any thoughts about what is going on?
-
My thoughts & questions.
Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting? Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge? Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!
-
My thoughts & questions.
Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting? Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge? Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!
By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.
How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
-
The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.
The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time.
My thoughts & questions.
Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting? Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge? Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!
By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.
How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
-
I thought that, too, Fran. But there isn't a big enough drop in inventory year-to-year to support that theory.
The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.
The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time.
My thoughts & questions.
Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting? Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge? Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!
By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.
How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
-
It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.
On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?
After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?
-
It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.
On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?
After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?
WillowRun,
Don't you have anything better to do than to hassle Bob about his own beliefs and actions? Who gave you the right to get mixed up in this whole affair? Why did you come on this forum anyway?
SDAminister
-
It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.
On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?
After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?
I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
When are we to be as lambs led to the slaughter like Jesus, and when is it all right to appeal to Caesar as Paul did?
But one thing is true: Jesus did not stop speaking the truth after His arrest. And we have the example of the martyrs as well, that they kept on speaking the truth. Wylie records the dying words of a preacher from Geneva who was pastoring the Waldensians in southern Italy. The story is quite touching.
Of course, truth should be spoken in love. That's kind of hard to do in court papers.
-
I haven't compared the 990 with the financial statements. I will say that the auditor was underpaid! This is the most detailed report ever from 3ABN!
I marveled at his courage to spend the time he must have spent to be able to put the information together in a manner most will understand.
As always Paragraphs 2 brings the "except for statements" in paragraph 5. Then in Paragraph 3 & 4 gets them on the foreign associations where they send money and expense what they sent without any accounting of the expenditures.
They still have problems with valuing assets. Some are slow learners. Pages 6-12 are very good. I believe this shows where the accountant did double time!
The statements on page 13 clearly say the $ 1,065,030.36 comes from Cost of Goods given away-Other. This does not include the $ 435,724.81 they gave away in satellite equipment. I will have to go back and compare all of the Cost of Goods/Inventory for the past few years.
What was it Shelley Quinn stated about over 7,000,000? Surely she had to have said "printed" or "given away"since they gave them away for free. I question where she received her information. I need to compare Balance Sheets for Cost of Goods Sold/Inventory, Their Inventory is $ 534,208.94 at the end of 12/31/2007.
On page 7; paragraph h,. are the details of their inventory. Books are not listed unless it is included under Literature. Their inventory consists of Satellite Dishes, Receivers, Literature, & Music Compacts disks. It is not broken down by $ amounts in each category. However, Satellites and equipment is excluded from the $ 1,065,030.36.
I want them to know that I did notice that they are listing Fiduciary Funds/Money for other Ministries as a Liability now! Finally, after all these years of screaming about how they are liabilities, not 3ABN income!
However, I was disappointed to see that there was a balance of $ 14,894.28 in Liabilities that belongs to other ministries. The total that went to 3ABN income in 2000 was $14,000+ also. I would like to see monthly Financial Statements. Dream on, huh!
Remember, however, there is no free lunch - ever! The donors paid Danny for them to be given away free!
This is as far as I have gotten here in my notes. After Sabbath I will check these other things. Because of the accounting of past years, I tend to doubt the validity of past audits done by 3ABN auditors. This year is pleasingly different!
Is this Gary Hunter Stenn LLP new auditors? If not, they sure did do a lot more this year. Even though they still aren't doing things right, this firm is laying it all out there for everyone to understand!
Happy Sabbath.
Do we have a copy of Remnants 2007 990? I would like a copy if anyone has it. This will contribute to answering this question.
The last note I have to check out is found on page 10, #9, Donated Assets. For 2007 there was $ 1,502,657.92. "The assets are recorded at FMV and are included in contribution revenue." The statement tells me this isn't right yet. It looks like they are receipting the assets received for eBay sales and Barn Yard Sales! Did they fix what was wrong?
I will be trying to find out. It is clear eBay and other Barn Yard Sales bring in quite a big chunk, and always have been. Now that they are being recorded it is clear to see it is very possible to sell 2 million as Tammy stated on air. Remember from 1998-2002 they were no values on the books. The stuff just sold, but of course there are no records at 3ABN of these sales! I still wonder why they have no records of my purchases? It is a good thing Merchant accounts can be tracked to get the dollar amounts of all of those sales.
I thought that, too, Fran. But there isn't a big enough drop in inventory year-to-year to support that theory.
The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.
The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time.
My thoughts & questions.
Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting? Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge? Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!
By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.
How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
-
Fran, I'm sending you the Remnant 2007 Form 990. I tried to attach it here but I couldn't get it to upload.
Gray Hunter Stenn are not new to 3ABN. They have been auditing them for years. I was actually surprised that they stayed on the engagement, but it looks like they tried to be as thorough as the could be with the information they were given. That audit opinion is getting longer!
-
Thank you so much, Snoopy! Thank you for all the documents you have already sent to me. I really do appreciate it.
I am sure you will have it all figured out shortly, because I am so slow and take a lot of time.
Keep up your good work.
I do believe this firm has decided they needed some serious CYA, what with the IRS Audits. It looks to me like Max Trevino had a hand in this audit report. If so, I approve!
Can you believe it? I still have not received one word from the IRS stating the IRS audits have been completed. It sure is taking a long time. My guess is they are still at e-Bay getting totals for all those non-existent sales from 1998-2002. It gets old hearing others keep repeating the tax investigation is complete!
-
I have been comparing Remnant and 3ABN 990's and 3ABN's audit report. I believe something isn't right.
I will have to check this further to be sure. Surely Remnant wouldn't "donate" the books to 3ABN, and 3ABN listed them as non-cash donations, and 3ABN listed them as assets until such a time as they could sell or give them away?
Why are no books listed, but only literature reported in 3ABN's Audit report as inventory?
Remnant has sales of $ 2,288.506.00 and paid out $ 202,917.00 in Royalties. These figures look reasonable and normal to me. However, I noticed Remnant lists $1,607,913.00 in donations to donor advised funds.
Was something done to keep this off the books until after the IRS is complete with their investigation? Did 3ABN just take possession of all the remaining books and list them as donated? How will remnant get paid? When they are sold or given away? Did someone special pay for these non-cash items?
I am just thinking out loud, but something just doesn't slide right.
Writers are entitled to royalties on books they write. This has never been the question at all! The ruckus has been that 3ABN was not aware that Danny was receiving royalties, plus maybe an income off the sales. Why were the royalties hidden from his wife and 3ABN. He was definitely gaining at the cost of 3ABN donors!
3ABN can purchase as many books as they please and let the publisher pay royalties to the writer. This is right and honest. But what happened with Remnant was not honest and above board! I believe most of the fault would be in Danny's corner for hiding income and making a gain without being open with 3ABN! Danny received free advertising at the expense of 3ABN!
I just do not believe at this point that all is open and above board. I will get back later on the 3ABN figures listed next to Remnants. Plus figures showing changes from year to year. Until then it will be hard for anyone to see.
By the way, is the company that remnant pays for their facilities a 501 (c) 3? If not, can we get details on that company? Is Remnant buying a facility at the expense of Remnant? The listed income for the officers is rather small. As long as they disclose this income on their tax returns, I have no comment. There could be other reasons for Remnant paying a family member for the facilities. I am just curious as to how this is handled.
Something is just not right! Later.
I haven't compared the 990 with the financial statements. I will say that the auditor was underpaid! This is the most detailed report ever from 3ABN!
I marveled at his courage to spend the time he must have spent to be able to put the information together in a manner most will understand.
As always Paragraphs 2 brings the "except for statements" in paragraph 5. Then in Paragraph 3 & 4 gets them on the foreign associations where they send money and expense what they sent without any accounting of the expenditures.
They still have problems with valuing assets. Some are slow learners. Pages 6-12 are very good. I believe this shows where the accountant did double time!
The statements on page 13 clearly say the $ 1,065,030.36 comes from Cost of Goods given away-Other. This does not include the $ 435,724.81 they gave away in satellite equipment. I will have to go back and compare all of the Cost of Goods/Inventory for the past few years.
What was it Shelley Quinn stated about over 7,000,000? Surely she had to have said "printed" or "given away"since they gave them away for free. I question where she received her information. I need to compare Balance Sheets for Cost of Goods Sold/Inventory, Their Inventory is $ 534,208.94 at the end of 12/31/2007.
On page 7; paragraph h,. are the details of their inventory. Books are not listed unless it is included under Literature. Their inventory consists of Satellite Dishes, Receivers, Literature, & Music Compacts disks. It is not broken down by $ amounts in each category. However, Satellites and equipment is excluded from the $ 1,065,030.36.
I want them to know that I did notice that they are listing Fiduciary Funds/Money for other Ministries as a Liability now! Finally, after all these years of screaming about how they are liabilities, not 3ABN income!
However, I was disappointed to see that there was a balance of $ 14,894.28 in Liabilities that belongs to other ministries. The total that went to 3ABN income in 2000 was $14,000+ also. I would like to see monthly Financial Statements. Dream on, huh!
Remember, however, there is no free lunch - ever! The donors paid Danny for them to be given away free!
This is as far as I have gotten here in my notes. After Sabbath I will check these other things. Because of the accounting of past years, I tend to doubt the validity of past audits done by 3ABN auditors. This year is pleasingly different!
Is this Gary Hunter Stenn LLP new auditors? If not, they sure did do a lot more this year. Even though they still aren't doing things right, this firm is laying it all out there for everyone to understand!
Happy Sabbath.
Do we have a copy of Remnants 2007 990? I would like a copy if anyone has it. This will contribute to answering this question.
The last note I have to check out is found on page 10, #9, Donated Assets. For 2007 there was $ 1,502,657.92. "The assets are recorded at FMV and are included in contribution revenue." The statement tells me this isn't right yet. It looks like they are receipting the assets received for eBay sales and Barn Yard Sales! Did they fix what was wrong?
I will be trying to find out. It is clear eBay and other Barn Yard Sales bring in quite a big chunk, and always have been. Now that they are being recorded it is clear to see it is very possible to sell 2 million as Tammy stated on air. Remember from 1998-2002 they were no values on the books. The stuff just sold, but of course there are no records at 3ABN of these sales! I still wonder why they have no records of my purchases? It is a good thing Merchant accounts can be tracked to get the dollar amounts of all of those sales.
I thought that, too, Fran. But there isn't a big enough drop in inventory year-to-year to support that theory.
The $ 8,031.11 were clearly purchases.
The #1,000,000.00 + in give aways may have been stock/inventory on hand, purchased at a previous time.
My thoughts & questions.
Could it be the $ 1,000,000.00+ were bought before they had full knowledge of the fact Danny was profiting? Then, could the $ 8,031.11 purchase be made after that knowledge? Then there are those last statements on the 990 showing more than one purchase that deals with more than one conflicts of interest!
By saying that they only purchased $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books in 2007, they are saying that no more than that figure makes up the over $1 million cost of goods given away.
How could that be? If Shelley Quinn at some point claimed that there were more than 7 million copies of TCTR book out there, how could $8,031.11 be the sum total of Danny's books that 3ABN purchased during the entire year of 2007?
-
Question for anyone. Can you tell me what "Transfers" means here?
Remnant 2007 990, Part II, Pg 2, # 43 (b) "Other expenses not covered above (itemized)" shows Transfers of $ 897,032.What kind of expense would that be?
Part III; Pg 2; 2 (e) says: "Transfer of any part of its income or assets." They checked "No" on 2 (e).
Royalties are listed on line 43 (d) as $ 202,917.
Printing and publication expense: Part II; Pg2; Line 38 is $ 1,084.570.
Sales: Part 1; pg 1; line2 $ 2,288,506.
Somebody needs to post this 990 for downloading for everyone. It is hard when you can't see what others are talking about.
Previous years of 990's are on Save-3ABN.com. http://www.save-3abn.com/3abn-form-990s.htm
-
To be fair to Remnant, on previous 990's Remnant does have a line 43 (b) listing "Tithes and Transfers" and the total is nothing compared to the sum listed in 2007.
Transfers are/were:
2007 $ 897.032 tithe and transfers
2006 $ 200,331 tithe and transfers
2005 $ 192,623 tithe and transfers
2004 $ 15,677 tithe and transfers
2003 $ 27,596 tithe and transfers
2002 $ 5,500 and lists as only tithe
Sales are/were:
2007 $ 2,288,506
2006 $ 4,316,011
2005 $ 1,228,662
2004 $ 2,009,825
2003 $ 888.844
2002 $ 743,348
2001 $ 570,894
2000 $ 721,476
Do you see the disparity in the figures. It is surely easy to see before and after Danny Shelton!
Then there are those donated assets on the 3ABN books for (Audit report for 3ABN; Page10; # 9 Donated Assets) $1,502,657.92! I need to talk to somebody.
-
It gives the appearance of you having an axe to grind or a personal vendetta rather than a legitimate legal case.
On the other hand, Danny Shelton filed the lawsuit against us to try to force us to shut up. Should the lawsuit succeed in that regard?
After our Saviours arrest, how did he answer his accusers?
WillowRun,
Don't you have anything better to do than to hassle Bob about his own beliefs and actions? Who gave you the right to get mixed up in this whole affair? Why did you come on this forum anyway?
SDAminister
I'd like to hear her thoughts.
-
Transfers are/were: Restricted Donations (Bibles)
2007 $897,032 transfers only $1,607,913 *
2006 $200,331 tithe and transfers $258,665 *
2005 $192,623 tithe and transfers
2004 $15,677 tithe and transfers
2003 $27,596 tithe and transfers
2002 $5,500 tithe only
Sales Printing Costs Difference Royalties % of Sales % of Sales-Costs
2007 $2,288,506 $1,084,570 $1,203,936 $202,917 8.9% ** 16.9% **
2006 $4,316,011 $1,680,814 $2,635,197 $508,767 11.8% 19.3%
2005 $1,228,662 $445,558 $783,104 $116,556 9.5% 14.9%
2004 $2,009,825 $592,153 $1,417,672 $26,178 1.3% 1.8%
2003 $888,844 $262,297 $626,547 $16,226 1.8% 2.6%
2002 $743,348 $216,148 $527,200 $12,438 1.7% 2.4%
2001 $570,894
2000 $721,476
Please realize I am calculating Sales and only the cost of printing. This is not the amount of income they made on those sales.
To be accurate, you must remember the overhead/fixed costs of entity. (Building, Salaries, utilities…)
* The transfers could have to do with Bibles purchased and shipped. I am not sure yet until talking with Remnant this week.
The Bibles were not printed, but purchased and shipped from donations. This "Transfer" could be for those purchases since they would not be included in cost of goods sold.
I can only list 2006 & 2007 because those donations were not split/separated until 2006 on Form 990.
** Bob calculated differently at http://www.save-3abn.com/danny-shelton-remnant-hides-royalties.htm. I did not take out shipping because I am not sure what part was for Bibles.
The other reason I did not include shipping was because, if I remember correctly, the churches ordering the TCTR books, paid the postage for the shipments.
It is clear to me that in 2004 began the publishing of Danny Shelton and Shelley Quinn's book. I believe there is an original book and a condensed book. It is clearly apparent royalties were not paid in 2004! Why?
Dare we wonder why! IMO Danny did not want it included in his divorce settlement.
It is also clear to me that somebody bought books in 2007. Did 3ABN use restricted donations to purchase books to be given away and handled the purchase out side of Cost of Goods sold?
I have to give Remnant credit for returning a tithe on the 501 (c) 3. 3ABN does not tithe except to themselves.
-
WillowRun,
Don't you have anything better to do than to hassle Bob about his own beliefs and actions? Who gave you the right to get mixed up in this whole affair? Why did you come on this forum anyway?
SDAminister
SDAminister....who gave you the right to take that "tone" with me? It is neither pastor-like nor Christ like...
I am here because I am Seventh Day Adventist. I came to the church after watching George Vandemann in the 1980's. I've known about the rottenness of a certain TV ministry since the early 1990's. I care about this denomination and don't want to see the entire church painted with the same brush because a handful of badly managed ministries. I believe we have positive things to promote and I would like to see more of that at AdventTalk. We shouldn't let one rogue ministry be an obstacle when there are so many alternatives available--HOPE TV, LLBN, SafeTV. I love HOPE and SAFE TV. I was there at the beginning of SAFE TV back in the early 90's. I would like to view LLBN but their servers are always busy. If their server load is an indication, LLBN must offer great programming as well.
For those who wonder...I took a hiatus from the SDA faith because of one self righteous controlling jerk of a pastor. "Because I said so" has never been an acceptable answer for me. I believe you should always question authority...
-
WillowRun,
Don't you have anything better to do than to hassle Bob about his own beliefs and actions? Who gave you the right to get mixed up in this whole affair? Why did you come on this forum anyway?
SDAminister
I'd like to hear her thoughts.
Bob...I don't have my wording right...but I've not forgotten you.
-
WillowRun;
Is that a promise or a threat? :dunno:
-
WillowRun;
Is that a promise or a threat? :dunno:
No threat! :D I just like to think carefully about what I am going to say...Drove myself nuts when I was in college.
-
Well, with that I can relate! Same here!
-
SDAminister....who gave you the right to take that "tone" with me? It is neither pastor-like nor Christ like...
I am here because I am Seventh Day Adventist. I came to the church after watching George Vandemann in the 1980's. I've known about the rottenness of a certain TV ministry since the early 1990's. I care about this denomination and don't want to see the entire church painted with the same brush because a handful of badly managed ministries. I believe we have positive things to promote and I would like to see more of that at AdventTalk. We shouldn't let one rogue ministry be an obstacle when there are so many alternatives available--HOPE TV, LLBN, SafeTV. I love HOPE and SAFE TV. I was there at the beginning of SAFE TV back in the early 90's. I would like to view LLBN but their servers are always busy. If their server load is an indication, LLBN must offer great programming as well.
For those who wonder...I took a hiatus from the SDA faith because of one self righteous controlling jerk of a pastor. "Because I said so" has never been an acceptable answer for me. I believe you should always question authority...
Welcome back! ;)
-
WillowRun,
Don't you have anything better to do than to hassle Bob about his own beliefs and actions? Who gave you the right to get mixed up in this whole affair? Why did you come on this forum anyway?
SDAminister
SDAminister....who gave you the right to take that "tone" with me? It is neither pastor-like nor Christ like...
Ha! You caught me! You're right. It isn't Christ like. So, why did I speak to you that way?
You aren't the first person to ask Bob why he doesn't follow Christ's example and be quiet while other make accusations about him. Such folk are many. But what I find interesting is that when I make an accusation against them, they don't follow their own preaching but get huffy and begin to defend themselves.
I intentionally spoke to you in an inflammatory manner to see how you'd respond.
I'm not going to judge whether what you said was right or wrong. I would just note that you did attempt to defend yourself.......
SDAminister
-
I intentionally spoke to you in an inflammatory manner to see how you'd respond.
I'm not going to judge whether what you said was right or wrong. I would just note that you did attempt to defend yourself.......
SDAminister
......speaking very softly....Congratulations SDA Minister......you've earned a spot on my grits list.
I do not support the behavior of the Danny Clones. I am firmly on Linda's side in this issue. I've not noticed you making much in the way of statements.
I question.....always. Always.
-
I intentionally spoke to you in an inflammatory manner to see how you'd respond.
I'm not going to judge whether what you said was right or wrong. I would just note that you did attempt to defend yourself.......
SDAminister
......speaking very softly....Congratulations SDA Minister......you've earned a spot on my grits list.
I do not support the behavior of the Danny Clones. I am firmly on Linda's side in this issue. I've not noticed you making much in the way of statements.
I question.....always. Always.
I like grits! Pat of butter, a little season salt. Mmmmmm. I think we're cut from the same bolt.
-
...and butting in here, I dig this kind of healthy, in-love, CHRISTIAN exchange, as that is just how I see it. I appreciate all of you more than you know. :thumbsup:
I intentionally spoke to you in an inflammatory manner to see how you'd respond.
I'm not going to judge whether what you said was right or wrong. I would just note that you did attempt to defend yourself.......
SDAminister
......speaking very softly....Congratulations SDA Minister......you've earned a spot on my grits list.
I do not support the behavior of the Danny Clones. I am firmly on Linda's side in this issue. I've not noticed you making much in the way of statements.
I question.....always. Always.
I like grits! Pat of butter, a little season salt. Mmmmmm. I think we're cut from the same bolt.
-
Under note 14 on p. 11 it says that they bought $8,031.11 of books authored by a member of management. That's down from the nearly $3 million bought in 2006, and lower than any number since at least 2001.
Yet cost of goods given away is still reported on p. 13 as being more than $1 million.
Since Remnant reported royalty payments of I think around $200,000 on their 2007 Form 990, how can it be that 3ABN only bought $8,031.11 of books written by Danny?
Any ideas?
I've been going through court documents, and I think it can be proven that 3ABN purchased way more than $8,031.11 worth of Danny's books. Want to see how?
-
$3,750 -- 3ABN's August 21, 2007, purchase order to Remnant for 15,000 of Does God Love Sinners Forever? (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/miwd-08mc00003/miwd-08mc00003-doc-38-15.pdf)
$3,750 -- 3ABN's August 28, 2007, purchase order to Remnant for 15,000 of Can We Eat Anything? (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/miwd-08mc00003/miwd-08mc00003-doc-38-16.pdf)
Just those two purchases added together nearly make up the total reported purchases of Danny's books. And those purchase orders didn't include anything for shipping.
There is more:
$44,928 + $1,200 shipping -- 3ABN's March 6, 2007, purchase order to Remnant for 70,200 copies of Ten Commandments Twice Removed (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/miwd-08mc00003/miwd-08mc00003-doc-38-20.pdf)
$79,488 + $1,200 shipping -- 3ABN's March 29, 2007, purchase order to Remnant for 124,200 copies of Ten Commandments Twice Removed (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/miwd-08mc00003/miwd-08mc00003-doc-38-23.pdf)
$76,032 + $1,200 shipping -- 3ABN's April 5, 2007, purchase order to Remnant for 118,800 copies of Ten Commandments Twice Removed (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/miwd-08mc00003/miwd-08mc00003-doc-38-30.pdf)
$71,424 + $1,200 shipping -- 3ABN's April 18, 2007, purchase order to Remnant for 111,600 copies of Ten Commandments Twice Removed (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/miwd-08mc00003/miwd-08mc00003-doc-38-32.pdf)
Still doesn't look like enough sales to account for all of the estimated 2007 royalty payments from Remnant to Danny, but it looks more realistic than it did before.
-
Bob,
You left out the PO numbers! :ROFL:
-
To all, please note that the above links go to purchase orders. A purchase order documents purchases. Thus we have documented purchases in 2007 of Danny's books that far exceed $8,031.
Each of the TCTR purchase orders raise the question of when the purchases were paid for. But they do not raise any questions as to whether the purchases were made.
-
Sorry, Bob;
I was just kidding! You have given us everything but the "filthy dish drainer sludge!" Keep it coming! Thank you!
I must say, I am rather surprised 3ABN used PO's at all! Is that a new procedure added in the last few years?
What else do you have in your back pocket? It is about time the real true facts come out of hiding. I haven't been able to read anymore the past few days. My eyes have been hurting from all that reading. I am not even close to reading it all. And thank you for the new web site. It is very organized and easy to find. This information would make a great book!
-
I read the auditors page 1 & 2. The more things change, the more they stay the same!
They still don't follow GAAP!
I have been asking for almost 5 years where their consolidated Financials were. Hey, they don't have any!
They are still have problems valuing their assets! This problem was brought up on the 2000 audit and every audit after that! They are slow learners! Or, could this be done this way on purpose? That is my guess, because they do this, all financial statements are not prepared correctly, thus they are definitely not a fair representation of 3ABN's financial position!
Not presenting expenses of its foreign facilities is a fine way to hide funds and expenses! That is a very serious matter as far as I am concerned! For all these years the auditors have told then they are required to use GAAP. Do they listen? No! Do they care? No.
I really have to go to bed. I will read the rest later this week.
Say, Fran, doesn't "mark to market" apply here since they essentially offer the assets of the corporation as the collateral for those trusts and annuities? Isn't there significant implications here regarding the viability of the company to support annuities and trusts? And how does this relate to the action in Washington state?
Gailon Arthur Joy
-
Gailon;
I will be back. Gotta go to bed, I am tried tonight for some reason. I was craving fresh vegetables. I think I went over the top with fresh tomatoes. I ate 6!
Your assessment is correct. I will be back to discuss the 3ABN audits over the last 7 years. They sure are slow learners! Later.
Fran