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[reddogs]

Folks, what is plain to me is that Mr Pickle believes he is rebuking sin and reproving error in a righteous manner,  and yet does not accept rebuke or reproof from another, and will not hear it, but only keeps casting blame on others.

This is the part where you leave them to God... as it's not on our hands or heads, but on his own.

When do we get to the point that you take seriously, for yourself in rebuking sin and reproving error, that you leave it to God?

If Danny is quilty, then God will judge, our job according to scripture is to bring it to the brother so that he may turn from his sin and have life....

1 John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I am sure most here remember the PTL mess and those that were for so long willing to leave it to God. Perhaps if James baker had true friends surrounding him in his endeavors, he would not have had the humiliating experience of free bed and board, compliments of MN.

His problems if I recall were allegations of sexual misconduct and misappropriating money given to PTL for specific reasons.

Think it can't happen to SDA's, think again. And that makes this everyone's business. IRS criminal investigations are not started on a whim or an anonymous complaint. By the time this officially begins, the IRS has something they can sink their teeth into.

It would be nice to see all financial records and money accounted for. 3ABN in the clear because of their willingness to be completely transparent as to what has occurred with money of others. What a refreshing change and what it could say about SDA's to have that knowledge. Instead, it is quite the opposite and doesn't appear a whole lot different than other org as this that have fallen amid public humiliation and ridicule




Most of this was in DS's hands to resolve quickly and in a transparent manner. Confidentiality is not a luxury or right that those that receive money from others or by solicitaion /donation have .

Those records should be readily available, regardless. All questions as to ethical standards should be apparant within those records and cause no reason to fear.
HIs lifestyle should reflect his stated salary. I don't care what the salary is as long as it is stated upfront in the records and he is within those means.

I do not donate to them or any org like this. I am not independently wealthy and need to achieve the most out of what I can do. That would not be watching untold thousands being spent trying to keep from producing records of financial activity.

That is why its called the "PTL mess", they took it out in the common street and it spread from there, instead of just the people that it concerned.... 

[bonnie]

That is why its called the "PTL mess", they took it out in the common street and it spread from there, instead of just the people that it concerned.... 

The people that it concerned did nothing. They continued to let James Baker/PTL fleece the flock. Then the common people decided the fleecing in God's name needed to stop. Pity, those concerned didn't act. Thereby showing true friendship for James Baker and stopping the mess it turned into.

[reddogs]

If Danny is quilty, then God will judge, our job according to scripture is to bring it to the brother so that he may turn from his sin and have life....

You just don't seem to get it. Danny filed suit in U.S. District Court, and his attorney got the judge to tell me that I can't bring anything to him anymore.

Danny made this super public by allowing Alyssa to be called a liar on a 3ABN broadcast, and by hosting a special tribute to his alleged pedophile brother, which, in the face of new allegations, was about as brazen as one can get.

Danny made it public.

Danny made it public.

He dared make it public to my neighbors using a network that is supposed to present the Adventist message in a positive way.

I'm still waiting to hear your outrage at his extreme lack of discretion.

We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.

So take care of this as you see fit according to bible principles, but giving lurid details to strangers on the web is not rebuking, is not what a Christian should do, it is not Christ-like, and does not help the brother or sister that has fallen into sin....

[Lil Star]

We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.

Who is this 'we' you keep talking about?

does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.

Reddogs, exposing a perpetrator is not demeaning or degrading. However, it is giving the INNOCENT people with whom s/he may become involved with some information as to what type of person s/he is. I believe that getting as much information as possible is a good thing. Without information, no one will succeed. The more information a person has, the better s/he is personally. Spiritually and emotionally.

but giving lurid details to strangers on the web is not rebuking, is not what a Christian should do, and does not help the brother or sister that has fallen into sin....

Hmmmm, is not what a christian should do AND does not help the person who has fallen into sin? Let's see here, how does a person deal with wrongdoings? They get punished. How does a person get help for falling in any type of sin, Hmmmm, lets see, maybe get help??  Nahhhhh, maybe it is just something we as christians should just turn the other cheek or even write the sins in the sand....

I think another 'red' said that before someplace.

[Snoopy]

Well then, Red, perhaps you could direct our attention to where you have made the same accusations and judments of Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, & 3ABN for their behaviors toward Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and so many others.  You do sound like a reasonable man, so I am sure you are approaching each side of this ugly saga with an equal perspective.

What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.

I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.

Rebuking sin is one thing my brother, but what you are doing is venting in public for the lack of a better word not rebuking, and it is affecting you as it is plainly affecting others. If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both. If they do not accept a righteous rebuke, then we must address that. But always keep love in your heart for a brother or sister as they are still within the reach of God.....

Your brother in Christ
Red

[Johann]

We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.

So take care of this as you see fit according to bible principles, but giving lurid details to strangers on the web is not rebuking, is not what a Christian should do, and does not help the brother or sister that has fallen into sin....

Can't you just fancy someone building a pulpit on the resurrection morning while Christ is sitting on the cloud. There that preacher would shout and bring his final message to the prophets of old.

This messenger would stand there hollering to those prophets that they had no business revealing all of those small disagreements, how they have demeaned and degraded even kings, preachers, and other prophets, disturbing them in their work for the Lord. They opened up minute details and revealed them in the most distributed and read book that was ever published - the Bible.

Can't you just see that preacher standing there telling the Lord not to have those prophets picked up by the angels, because they revealed too many secrets?

[Lil Star]

I could actually see someone doing that just so the point of not telling secrets would be heard. What a sad sad sad thing to even think of. But you are right Johann

[reddogs]

Well then, Red, perhaps you could direct our attention to where you have made the same accusations and judments of Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, & 3ABN for their behaviors toward Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and so many others.  You do sound like a reasonable man, so I am sure you are approaching each side of this ugly saga with an equal perspective.

What you dont seem to realize is that none of this brings glory to God, the way everyone has acted is like what you see in a daytime soap opera.

I'm sorry. I don't buy your apparent premise that John the Baptist was wrong for rebuking sin, that Elijah was wrong for rebuking sin, etc., etc., and that they were really just angry, hurt, and arrogant.

Rebuking sin is one thing my brother, but what you are doing is venting in public for the lack of a better word not rebuking, and it is affecting you as it is plainly affecting others. If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both. If they do not accept a righteous rebuke, then we must address that. But always keep love in your heart for a brother or sister as they are still within the reach of God.....

Your brother in Christ
Red

As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson,  Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....

[Snoopy]

As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson,  Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....

You mean like what Danny and Walt did to Linda over the airwaves and in a public mailing??  LIKE THAT?  I totally agree!!!

[Bob Pickle]

We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.

No, you don't get it. Danny sued. The suit is filed on PACER. PACER is on the world wide web. Everyone with an internet connection can read it. Danny did that.

Further, why don't you stop characterizing these things as rumor and hear say, unless you want to get specific about what your are referring to. It is not rumor and it is not hear say that Danny Shelton admitted that he divorced his wife without biblical grounds. It is also not rumor or hear say that he as yet not offered a public apology.

And it is not rumor or hearsay that Mike Riva stooped to the low, low, low, low level of threatening a non-Adventist pastor and a board of trustees for a non-Adventist Church with a lawsuit in order to silence concerns over allegations of child molestation. That right there ought to be grounds for immediate dismissal from the service of any supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. No attorney working on behalf of a denominational or supporting ministry entity of the Adventist Church should ever engage is such unbecoming, renegade behavior.

Further, if any supporting ministry dares hire an attorney to do such a disgraceful thing, their membership in ASI should immediately be in jeopardy, in my opinion.

[Snoopy]

Hhmm - now you got me thinking, Bob.  Would Riva's/3ABN's actions qualify as obstruction of justice?

No, you don't get it. Danny sued. The suit is filed on PACER. PACER is on the world wide web. Everyone with an internet connection can read it. Danny did that.

Further, why don't you stop characterizing these things as rumor and hear say, unless you want to get specific about what your are referring to. It is not rumor and it is not hear say that Danny Shelton admitted that he divorced his wife without biblical grounds. It is also not rumor or hear say that he as yet not offered a public apology.

And it is not rumor or hearsay that Mike Riva stooped to the low, low, low, low level of threatening a non-Adventist pastor and a board of trustees for a non-Adventist Church with a lawsuit in order to silence concerns over allegations of child molestation. That right there ought to be grounds for immediate dismissal from the service of any supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. No attorney working on behalf of a denominational or supporting ministry entity of the Adventist Church should ever engage is such unbecoming, renegade behavior.

Further, if any supporting ministry dares hire an attorney to do such a disgraceful thing, their membership in ASI should immediately be in jeopardy, in my opinion.

[reddogs]

We get it, but just because a neighbor files suit over some small disagreement, does a Christian have to demean and degrade everyone involved and spread the details to every corner of the world wide web...NO.

No, you don't get it. Danny sued. The suit is filed on PACER. PACER is on the world wide web. Everyone with an internet connection can read it. Danny did that.

Further, why don't you stop characterizing these things as rumor and hear say, unless you want to get specific about what your are referring to. It is not rumor and it is not hear say that Danny Shelton admitted that he divorced his wife without biblical grounds. It is also not rumor or hear say that he as yet not offered a public apology.

And it is not rumor or hearsay that Mike Riva stooped to the low, low, low, low level of threatening a non-Adventist pastor and a board of trustees for a non-Adventist Church with a lawsuit in order to silence concerns over allegations of child molestation. That right there ought to be grounds for immediate dismissal from the service of any supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. No attorney working on behalf of a denominational or supporting ministry entity of the Adventist Church should ever engage is such unbecoming, renegade behavior.

Further, if any supporting ministry dares hire an attorney to do such a disgraceful thing, their membership in ASI should immediately be in jeopardy, in my opinion.

That my brother is were the rubber meets the road, do we follow what evil others do and let it control us, or what Christ asked us to follow.........?

[reddogs]

As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson,  Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....

You mean like what Danny and Walt did to Linda over the airwaves and in a public mailing??  LIKE THAT?  I totally agree!!!

If they did something to destroy her, then evil has been served and as our brothers they must be presented with their wrong...the scripture is clear on that, but as Christian we must not partake of their sin and try to use the same methods in return........

[Artiste]

Reddogs, you must be getting tired after having to say the same thing over and over because nobody will listen to you or at least won't do as you say.

I won't mind if you take a rest for a while.

[bonnie]

Rebuking sin is one thing my brother, but what you are doing is venting in public for the lack of a better word not rebuking, and it is affecting you as it is plainly affecting others. If it was those who had rejected God and His love like the Pharisees or wicked that you were speaking of that is one thing, but you are talking about a brother and sister which have been snared by sin in one shape or another and we must try to help both. If they do not accept a righteous rebuke, then we must address that. But always keep love in your heart for a brother or sister as they are still within the reach of God.....

Your brother in Christ
Red


As I said, I do not know Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson,  Linda Shelton, Derrell Mundall, Barbara Kerr and all the others. I do not take any side in the matter as I have not been called to be as a brother, in a committee, or as a lawyer. If any have done wrong, then it should be presented to them by the appropriate people according to bible principles, and proceed from there. But not out in the street, not like this with every kind of rumor and hearsay, even your worst enemy should not be torn to pieces in such a public spectacle, I know righteous indignation, and this is not it....

Not that we are up to ten pages and many corrections issued by you, could you please now get to the basis of your accusations.
It is kind of hard for anyone to defend themselves against your accusations, (those that you feel should not be made), without knowing which statement you consider hearsy and gossip.
Such general accusations themselves may be considered hearsy and gossip and I am sure you do not want to be a party to that.
Which statement do you consider hearsy, give the one making it an opportunity to explain, defend,or retract, themselves,as is biblically required I think