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[Dedication]

It is fine to voice high-sounding religious principles.
You said:  "I have known a number of homosexuals who were celebate.  They did not engage in homosexual conduct."
I can say that this is an unlikely scenario, having dealt with hundreds of homosexuals, most of them professionally, but also some who were friends.
(Don't look now, but they may be laughing behind your back...)

How do you know a man is committing adultery?
Remember visual/fantasy adultery is sin just as well.   
How many ORDAINED PASTORS commit adultery?
How many are hooked on pronography?
Are they fit to be pastors?

Yes, there are men who are faithful to their wives and shun pronography.
And yes, that is often considered "a joke" by the majority.

If a life is fully surrendered to God, does God have the power to keep them from falling  into their carnal propensities?



 

[Johann]

Is it a sin to be homosexual?  MY answer, No.

Is it a sin to engage in homosexual conduct?  My answer, the Bible says it is.

NOTE:  When I say that it isnot a sin to be homosexual, I do not justify the conduct.  I have known a number of homosexuals who were celebate.  They did not engage in homosexual conduct.

Thank you, Gregory. I have earlier indicated on this forum that my own father was a homosexual. But he married my mother, and there is not the slightest indication he ever committed homosexual acts. As far as his faith is concerned,  he was a real perfectionist with high morals. Although his homosexuality would, at times, give him some strange ideas, he would never compromise in any way against the commandments of God. Therefore I know it is possible for those who dedicate their lives fully to God.

[Bob Pickle]

But here is a problem:

1 Tim. 2:13-14  For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

How can Paul's statements be just cultural when he cites Creation and the Fall, events that transcend every human culture, tradition, and policy on earth?

That is a difficult verse to understand:
It says Eve "was deceived and was in transgression".

"Adam was not deceived."
But why is there no comment made in that verse about the fact that he transgressed as well, and if not deceived then it was outright  rebellion.   Sinning wilfully.
If he were a "leader" why didn't he take Eve's hand lead her to God when He came to talk with them, and intercede for her, instead of "sinning wilfully"?   Obviously he didn't trust God, he took things into his own hands.

It was a stupid thing for Adam to do. But as one woman put it to me, she has noticed that women more than men tend to get caught up in fanatical ideas. So God may have decided to have the one of the pair who was least likely to be deceived be the one to lead.

But beyond the questions that arise concerning this --
the fact still remains that this is NOT talking about ordination.

There are two issues today, neither of which is really about ordination. (1) Church authority. (2) The office being ordained to.

Where we stand now in these issues is basically that a woman can do all the work that an elder or even most pastors do within the local churches -- teaching, speaking in church, leading out in seminars and programs, organizing all sorts of church programs -- basically everything except baptizing new members and doing marriage performances.  And no one thinks there's anything wrong, it's only the question of ordination.   Yet, Paul doesn't talk about ordination.

So -- haven't the "no women ordination" people already shown that they regard these verses as "cultural".?

I don't think so.

But more importantly, you left out a very vital aspect of ordination: Ordination confers the authority to (a) baptize and (b) organize churches. Since the gospel minister within the Adventist Church is not supposed to hover over existing churches, but generally speaking is supposed to concentrate on starting new churches, the push to ordain women to serve as mere local pastors, usurping to some extent the work of local elders, is just a further departure from our roots, the NT model, and SoP counsel.

[Gregory]

Ulicia said:

Where we stand now in these issues is basically that a woman can do all the work that an elder or even most pastors do within the local churches -- teaching, speaking in church, leading out in seminars and programs, organizing all sorts of church programs -- basically everything except baptizing new members and doing marriage performances.  And no one thinks there's anything wrong, it's only the question of ordination.   Yet, Paul doesn't talk about ordination.

Female Commissioned Ministers in the SDA Church can baptize and perform marriages.

There is very little that a female Comissioned Minister cannot do that can be done by a male ordained minister.

[Bob Pickle]

Ulicia said:

Where we stand now in these issues is basically that a woman can do all the work that an elder or even most pastors do within the local churches -- teaching, speaking in church, leading out in seminars and programs, organizing all sorts of church programs -- basically everything except baptizing new members and doing marriage performances.  And no one thinks there's anything wrong, it's only the question of ordination.   Yet, Paul doesn't talk about ordination.

Female Commissioned Ministers in the SDA Church can baptize and perform marriages.

There is very little that a female Comissioned Minister cannot do that can be done by a male ordained minister.

They can only baptize and perform marriages if they are elected as and currently serving as a local church elder, and they can only do those things within their own district.

And would this only be true within divisions that permit women to serve in this manner? Are there not divisions where this does not occur?

[Gregory]

And would this only be true within divisions that permit women to serve in this manner? Are there not divisions where this does not occur?

Yes, the above is true.  But, an ordained, male, SDA minister, is not suppsed to baptize outside of his Conference unless he has permission in the area where he is.


My understanding is that female Commissioned SDA Clergy do not have to be elected Elder by their local congregation in order to baptize.

They can perform marriages without being elected Elder.  That issue has more to do with local law than with church law.  As a point of interest:  When you (Bob Pickle) lived inColorado, you were authorized by Colorado law to perform marriages.  I do not know if you did such.

[Bob Pickle]

And would this only be true within divisions that permit women to serve in this manner? Are there not divisions where this does not occur?

Yes, the above is true.  But, an ordained, male, SDA minister, is not suppsed to baptize outside of his Conference unless he has permission in the area where he is.

That's a different situation than an unordained minister not being able to baptize outside of his local district. However, he may obtain permission to do so from his conference president, and from the conference president where the baptism will occur if it is in a different conference.

Do you know where it says that an ordained minister must get permission before baptizing in another area?

My understanding is that female Commissioned SDA Clergy do not have to be elected Elder by their local congregation in order to baptize.

This is incorrect.

L 26 Commissioned Ministers in Pastoral Positions—Role and Status

L 26 05 Requirements—An employee in pastoral position is recognized as a commissioned minister when all the following prerequisites have been satisfied:

1. Completion of the Bachelor of Arts degree with a major in Bible or religion plus nine quarters in the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, or two years of employment in ministerial or pastoral work or a total of two years of seminary training and employment in ministerial or pastoral work. Until this prerequisite has been met, the person will receive a missionary license.

2. Recipient of a commissioned minister license.

3. Appointment by the conference to a ministerial or pastoral responsibility.

4. Election as a church elder in the churches or named in the companies to which he/she is assigned.

5. Ordained as local elder.

L 26 10 states that a commissioned minister cannot organize or unite churches, and cannot ordain elders and deacons. Weddings and baptisms cannot be performed outside of the assigned district without the same permission that a licensed minister must obtain.

[Gregory]

Bob, Iwould appreciate it if you wou ld givethe date,when you cite Working Policies.  They are published so often that I would find value in knowing the edition that you cite.

[Bob Pickle]

Bob, Iwould appreciate it if you wou ld givethe date,when you cite Working Policies.  They are published so often that I would find value in knowing the edition that you cite.

The NAD WP I have is 2011-2012. The GC WP I have is 2005-2006.

[Johann]

L 26 Commissioned Ministers in Pastoral Positions—Role and Status

L 26 05 Requirements—An employee in pastoral position is recognized as a commissioned minister when all the following prerequisites have been satisfied:

1. Completion of the Bachelor of Arts degree with a major in Bible or religion plus nine quarters in the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary, or two years of employment in ministerial or pastoral work or a total of two years of seminary training and employment in ministerial or pastoral work. Until this prerequisite has been met, the person will receive a missionary license.

2. Recipient of a commissioned minister license.

3. Appointment by the conference to a ministerial or pastoral responsibility.

4. Election as a church elder in the churches or named in the companies to which he/she is assigned.

5. Ordained as local elder.

L 26 10 states that a commissioned minister cannot organize or unite churches, and cannot ordain elders and deacons. Weddings and baptisms cannot be performed outside of the assigned district without the same permission that a licensed minister must obtain.

We should consider that the NAD Working Policy is only valid in North America and not anywhere else in the world. Some conferences or unions have for many years had their own working policies which could be quite different.