Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => Womens Ordination & Related Issues => Topic started by: SDAminister on September 07, 2012, 07:18:49 PM
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Ever since the 90's when individuals such as Robert Dale, Al Mcclure, Robert Folkenburg and others eventually got their hate for independent ministries expressed and enshrinedin the Church Manual, I have been waiting all these years for that foolish chicken to come home and roost.
You know that item under which someone can be disfellowshipped " ...taking part in a divisive or disloyal movement or organization and persistent refusal to recognize and submit to properly constituted church authority."?
We can only hope that as Haman made those gallows for the faithful yet it was he who swung, that this doctrine will now expel rebels in the Pacific Union. With today's vote to approve 14 women for ordination, the exec committee there has passed a line.
I pray that someone with a backbone will call these administrators to account and expel them from their positions and from the church, if needed.
SDAminister
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I sense vengeance, hatred, and bitterness there. I hope you get some help and come to a point where you can get past it. I know, I've been there.
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I sense vengeance, hatred, and bitterness there. I hope you get some help and come to a point where you can get past it. I know, I've been there.
Lol! I keep pinching myself waiting for Ricardo Montalban to welcome me to Fantasy Island. But only in the fantasy world of SDA politics can a whole Union go bunco while those true to the church get assailed.
And BTW, I have friends who've been tortured for their faith and yet held no hatred for the torturers. Hey, we know what it means to take the name of Christ. No, vengence is the Lord's but one has to wonder who will be His battle ax this time around?
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I must admit, it really is amusing to see the switch around. Many of the people I see today calling for unity and for vengeance on those not in full harmony with the GC, are the same ones who called for disunity and rebellion in the 90's. Someone once said "Today's liberal causes are tomorrow's conservative ideas. It is kinda funny to see the wheel of time spin.... well, sometimes funny, sometimes in an ironic and sad way.
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Vengeance is the Lord's, but we can sure enjoy watching that battle axe hacking people apart, and seeing the blood of those former brethren flow, can't we. Lol. It's ok, you aren't alone in that. Crowds used to come out to watch the blood flow, and to enjoy the demise of their former brethren during the inquisition. It's human nature to enjoy the watching the battle axe fall on those you disagree with, at least in the fundamentalist areas of religion.
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It's human nature to enjoy the watching the battle axe fall on those you disagree with, at least in the fundamentalist areas of religion.
But that's not really the issue, is it? Is it true that the Pacific Union exec. comm. approved 14 women for ordination on Wednesday? If it is, then this thread is not about a difference of opinion at all. It is about rebellion.
Moreover, it sounds to me like it is about deception too. Did not the folks at the PUC session make clear that if the bylaws change didn't pass, they wouldn't be moving forward with ordaining women? Who stated that? Did Ricardo Graham, or was it someone else? Who lied?
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It's human nature to enjoy the watching the battle axe fall on those you disagree with, at least in the fundamentalist areas of religion.
But that's not really the issue, is it? Is it true that the Pacific Union exec. comm. approved 14 women for ordination on Wednesday? If it is, then this thread is not about a difference of opinion at all. It is about rebellion.
Moreover, it sounds to me like it is about deception too. Did not the folks at the PUC session make clear that if the bylaws change didn't pass, they wouldn't be moving forward with ordaining women? Who stated that? Did Ricardo Graham, or was it someone else? Who lied?
No, actually that is the issue. Seeking people's salvation is an honorable thing, salivating at the possibility of getting revenge for the 90's is dishonorable, especially for an SDA minister, who seems to have serious personal issues with hatred and rage. As I said, I've been there, and recommend counseling. It might help. The church offers such services to ministers.
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Really, this rebellion is pretty flagrant. The Loma Linda University Church is reported to be the site where the rebellion will go forward on Oct. 6. So they are trying to go forward before the GC Exec. Comm. even has a chance to meet.
Such disrespect. Such flagrant disregard of the Bible and SoP instructions on gospel order. What a mess.
The list of grounds for church discipline are there for a reason. This indeed is persistent refusal to follow properly constituted authority, and should be dealt with. Otherwise, why even have "properly constituted authority"?
The PUC leadership are setting us an example of every man doing what was right in his own eyes, rather than what was right in God's eyes. When Scripture describes that kind of situation at the end of the book of Judges, a mob tried to gang rape a man at Gibeah in Benjamin, they gang raped his concubine instead, she died, the man cut her up in twelve pieces and sent the pieces throughout Israel, a war was fought, and almost the whole tribe of Benjamin was annihilated. There was good reason why Saul told Samuel that his tribe and his family was small.
Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Deuteronomy 12:8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.
Deuteronomy 13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God.
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So you equate Loma Linda University Church with homosexual gang rape?
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But, like I said, hatred and an unhealthy desire for vengeance. These things can do strange things to a person. I am seeing more and more the spirit of the inquisition manifested in people over this issue. There is a bloodthirsty tone. I used to think that the people who cheered on the inquisitors and turned their neighbors in had to be totally inhuman. But now I see the same spirit in people who I know, and even in some friends. The hatred and desire for the harshest possible treatment of those they disagree with them on WO is astounding. It's also an education on the dark side of human nature, and how quickly normal people can become something frightening.
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In the story of the prodigal son, did the father sit there anticipating with joy the news that the chickens had come home to roost with his son? When the disciples wanted a village full of people to burn to death because they rejected Jesus, He rebuked them. He sat on the hill looking at Jerusalem and wept at the thought of its its habitants being lost.
You, SDA Minister seem to cherish the thought of fire coming down, gloat at the thought of the prodigal son languishing, and can't wait to see the destruction of the inhabitants of the PUC. Bob, does this also reflect you? I think it does. I suggest you both rethink Christianity and what it means. As per 1Cor 13, citing Acts 15 and 9T is meaningless if you are not showing love, and that you certainly are not.
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Is it true that the Pacific Union exec. comm. approved 14 women for ordination on Wednesday?
I do not know if this is accurate, or if it is not. I do not know if even one was approved, or not.
I would likee to see it objectively documented.
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So you equate Loma Linda University Church with homosexual gang rape?
Not at all. But the Bible story makes it clear where doing whatever is right in our own eyes can lead, and that should give Loma Linda University Church cause for reflection.
The hatred and desire for the harshest possible treatment of those they disagree with them on WO is astounding.
Correct me if I am wrong, but this thread is about persistent refusal to recognize properly constituted church authority, not about WO per se, correct?
When the disciples wanted a village full of people to burn to death because they rejected Jesus, He rebuked them. He sat on the hill looking at Jerusalem and wept at the thought of its its habitants being lost.
Church discipline when needed is hardly comparable to fire falling, since censor or disfellowship does not kill. And the idea that a union is in rebellion is certainly a very, very sad thing.
Bob, does this also reflect you? I think it does. I suggest you both rethink Christianity and what it means. As per 1Cor 13, citing Acts 15 and 9T is meaningless if you are not showing love, and that you certainly are not.
Could you suggest for us a way to express the thoughts of Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 that you think would harmonize with 1 Cor. 13? I agree that Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 must be carried out in an attitude of love. But there are some folks that no matter how you do it, they will call it unloving.
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Could you suggest for us a way to express the thoughts of Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 that you think would harmonize with 1 Cor. 13? I agree that Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 must be carried out in an attitude of love. But there are some folks that no matter how you do it, they will call it unloving.
“People long to do something to cleanse the church… But it is the spirit of Satan not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts.” EGW in COL
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No, this thread is about seeing the chickens come home to roost, about see the policies of the leaders from the 90's come around to bite them.
This is a bad spirit, one that does not reflect Christ, but reflects personal animosity.
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In the story of the prodigal son, did the father sit there anticipating with joy the news that the chickens had come home to roost with his son? When the disciples wanted a village full of people to burn to death because they rejected Jesus, He rebuked them. He sat on the hill looking at Jerusalem and wept at the thought of its its habitants being lost.
You, SDA Minister seem to cherish the thought of fire coming down, gloat at the thought of the prodigal son languishing, and can't wait to see the destruction of the inhabitants of the PUC. Bob, does this also reflect you? I think it does. I suggest you both rethink Christianity and what it means. As per 1Cor 13, citing Acts 15 and 9T is meaningless if you are not showing love, and that you certainly are not.
Why so much hate, Murcielago? You are trying to put words into my mouth. What's with all this fire coming down and the death of people? Do you have a sick mind? Is this what Christianity is?
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This forum has become toxic to the Christianity of some who read posts here..
The view of God that is presented here, by some, is neither Biblical nor is one that many pepole would want to spend eternity with.
Murcielago has it right more often than not.
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Rudeness and a lack of civilized graces are a poor substitute for substance, and in no way represent or witness for Christ.
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Could you suggest for us a way to express the thoughts of Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 that you think would harmonize with 1 Cor. 13? I agree that Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 must be carried out in an attitude of love. But there are some folks that no matter how you do it, they will call it unloving.
“People long to do something to cleanse the church… But it is the spirit of Satan not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts.” EGW in COL
Johann, I can't find any such quotation in COL.
Are you opposed to church discipline under any and every circumstance? Or just for those who persistently refuse to recognize properly constituted church authority?
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This forum has become toxic to the Christianity of some who read posts here..
The view of God that is presented here, by some, is neither Biblical nor is one that many pepole would want to spend eternity with.
Are you opposed, Gregory, to church discipline, even though both Jesus and the apostle Paul advocated it?
I admit, your posts supporting the present rebellion come across to me as toxic.
Do you recommend that the next GC Session remove "persistent refusal to recognize properly constituted church authority" from the list of grounds for church discipline?
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Could you suggest for us a way to express the thoughts of Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 that you think would harmonize with 1 Cor. 13? I agree that Mat. 18:17 and 1 Cor. 5:13 must be carried out in an attitude of love. But there are some folks that no matter how you do it, they will call it unloving.
“People long to do something to cleanse the church… But it is the spirit of Satan not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts.” EGW in COL
Johann, I can't find any such quotation in COL.
Are you opposed to church discipline under any and every circumstance? Or just for those who persistently refuse to recognize properly constituted church authority?
The only part of that quotation that I can find is "But it is the spirit of Satan not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts" that was taken from this paragraph:
Notwithstanding Christ's warning, men have sought to uproot the tares. To punish those who were supposed to be evildoers, the church has had recourse to the civil power. Those who differed from the established doctrines have been imprisoned, put to torture and to death, at the instigation of men who claimed to be acting under the sanction of Christ. But it is the spirit of Satan, not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts. This is Satan's own method of bringing the world under his dominion. God has been misrepresented through the church by this way of dealing with those supposed to be heretics. {COL 74.1}
I can't find the "People long to do something to cleanse the church..." part of Johann's EGW quote anywhere in the writings of EGW, therefore, I hope Johann can tell us why he posted this in such a way as to make it look like she wrote that.
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The other part came from p. 71:
"Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, 'Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest.'"
Rest assured that it is not satanic to follow the procedure outlined in Mat. 18 and 1 Cor. 5 for certain grievous sins. Fornication is one such, according to 1 Cor. 5:13. But there is a world of difference between a vote of censure or disfellowship on the one hand, and imprisonment, torture, or death on the other. There are no civil penalties involved in Adventist church discipline today ... unless you violate U.S. trademark law.
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Then only the word "People" wasn't in that quote, which is why I couldn't find the exact quote.
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It should have been: People "long to do something to cleanse the church… But it is the spirit of Satan not the Spirit of Christ, that inspires such acts.”
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And Johann, I have observed a very disturbing spirit in many of those who "long to cleanse the church." There is a spirit of hatred, a desire for something that will injure and hurt people enough to create a sense of satisfaction for their need to see those whom they disagree with, experience pain in the greatest capacity possible. They quote scripture to try justifying their need to see division and pain, but even Satan himself can quote scripture to justify his evil desires. By their fruits ye shall know them, and hatred, and desire to impose pain is the fruit of evil, not of God. Division is something desperately sought by those who cry out for the church to split itself. A desire to bring back union would be in line with scripture, but these people demand division. It seems to help fulfill their need for apocalyptic drama.
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Going ahead against the world decision of the church in GC Sessions and not allowing the GC to do their, hopefully, unbiased study is what I call rebellion that leads to division.