Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: ERIK on April 04, 2008, 01:10:04 AM
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Forum,
Any news on the new subpoena.
Looks like Three times is the charm for the lawyer.
Erik
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Nebraska Local Civil Rules state that adverse parties have 5 business days to object to a subpoena that will be issued and served upon a non-party, after receiving 10-business-day notice of its being about to be issued. Accordingly, I objected, serving my objections last Monday, which was within the required 5-business-day notice.
See Rule 45.1(a) and (b) at http://www.ned.uscourts.gov/localrules/NECivR07-1029.pdf (http://www.ned.uscourts.gov/localrules/NECivR07-1029.pdf)
According to 45.1(b), these objections have to be resolved before the subpoena can be issued. A hearing can be held for unresolved objections.
Thus far I have not received any contacts from the other side that could be interpreted to be attempts to resolve the objections I raised.
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What about the BlueHost subpoena?
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Bluehost obviously prefers to comply rather than to spend any $$$s in challenging it.
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We've asked plaintiffs' counsel to send the info back to BlueHost. Want to venture a guess whether they are interested in considering such a course?
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Nebraska Local Civil Rules state that adverse parties have 5 business days to object to a subpoena that will be issued and served upon a non-party, after receiving 10-business-day notice of its being about to be issued. Accordingly, I objected, serving my objections last Monday, which was within the required 5-business-day notice.
See Rule 45.1(a) and (b) at http://www.ned.uscourts.gov/localrules/NECivR07-1029.pdf (http://www.ned.uscourts.gov/localrules/NECivR07-1029.pdf)
According to 45.1(b), these objections have to be resolved before the subpoena can be issued. A hearing can be held for unresolved objections.
Thus far I have not received any contacts from the other side that could be interpreted to be attempts to resolve the objections I raised.
Calvin Eakin's counsel has made it clear they intend to challenge any properly noticed and served subpoena upon BlackSDA for improperly requested information.
It is noteworthy that we have now received thousands of pages of information pursuant to FRCP Rule 26 (better late than never, I suppose) from the Plaintiffs and the VAST, VAST majority was regurgitation of Forum and various SDA news entity information, including BlackSDA forum threads. But, it also included information from AToday, Spectrum, et al. We are still reviewing it for any real significance, but largely focused on the people of the SDA Church exercising their First Amendment Rights to freely express themselves.
It is clear the proponents of this lawsuite have the purest contempt for the First Amendment to the US COnstitution. It is also clear that those proponents, whether it be Danny Lee Shelton, the Officers and Directors of 3ABN or Garwin McNeilus need to learn to respect the rights conferred by that constitution and must be met head on with the same force that Mrs White called upon the church to meet John Harvey Kellogg, et al in the first and second decade of the ninteenth century.
They must be met and exposed for the serious danger they represent to the governance of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and it's properly constituted ministries. They must leaarn to respect and adhere to the counsel of many!!!
They must learn to respect due process.
They must learn to respect and the rights of individuals to freely express their right of conscience.
And they must respect the right of the stockholders in the pews to have and exercise accountability of any ministry they are asked to support.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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It is noteworthy that we have now received thousands of pages of information pursuant to FRCP Rule 26 (better late than never, I suppose) from the Plaintiffs and the VAST, VAST majority was regurgitation of Forum and various SDA news entity information, including BlackSDA forum threads. But, it also included information from AToday, Spectrum, et al. We are still reviewing it for any real significance, but largely focused on the people of the SDA Church exercising their First Amendment Rights to freely express themselves.
Gailon, I don't quite understand ...
1) What does the "information" of Forum and varous SDA news entities, including AToday, Spectrum & et al have to do with their legal action against you? (Perhaps it is merely meant to confuse/bury information/consume your time??)
2) Does this "information" include information you have actually requested?
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It is noteworthy that we have now received thousands of pages of information pursuant to FRCP Rule 26 (better late than never, I suppose) from the Plaintiffs and the VAST, VAST majority was regurgitation of Forum and various SDA news entity information, including BlackSDA forum threads. But, it also included information from AToday, Spectrum, et al. We are still reviewing it for any real significance, but largely focused on the people of the SDA Church exercising their First Amendment Rights to freely express themselves.
Imagine for a moment the Vatican following Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, and 3ABN's example. Imagine for a moment the Vatican suing every Adventist evangelist and preacher and church that dares say anything amiss against it or its clergy.
Since Danny claimed in the summer of 2006 that Garwin McNeilus would pay for a lawsuit such as this one, and since Garwin has, to my knowledge, not yet publicly denounced the current lawsuit, I ask also what he thinks of these implications. Since Garwin opposed Charles Sandefur's re-election on the basis of an Adventist hospital system entering into some sort of alliance or merger with a Catholic health system, what does he think about the potential of this lawsuit paving the way for the annihilation of our freedoms of speech and religion as it relates to protesting as Protestants against the sins of Babylon?
If a Seventh-day Adventist preacher/apologist and a Seventh-day Adventist reporter cannot speak out against Danny Shelton's cover up of child molestation allegations, his unbiblical divorce, and his private inurement, without getting sued, how can any of us continue to preach the third angel's message? If we cannot speak out against child molestation allegations, how can we speak out against Rome's change of the fourth commandment, the idolatrous sacrifice of the mass, the persecution of those she called heretics, her intent to regain her lost supremacy, etc., etc., without being hauled into court by Rome?
Will Danny Shelton, Walt Thompson, 3ABN, and Garwin McNeilus (assuming Danny was telling the truth in his summer 2006 claim) go down in history as helping to pave the way for the mark of the beast by their initiating or continued support of this unconstitutional and frivolous lawsuit? If so, is that what they really want?
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Helping to pave the way for the mark of the beast ... sound like too radical of an idea? Yet think about it. Take the lawsuit's claims and apply the same principles to what we preach. Our own brethren are either setting an example for Rome in how to deal with the likes of Adventists, or Rome is smarter than they are and knows that such a move would be the epitome of stupidity!
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It is noteworthy that we have now received thousands of pages of information pursuant to FRCP Rule 26 (better late than never, I suppose) from the Plaintiffs and the VAST, VAST majority was regurgitation of Forum and various SDA news entity information, including BlackSDA forum threads. But, it also included information from AToday, Spectrum, et al. We are still reviewing it for any real significance, but largely focused on the people of the SDA Church exercising their First Amendment Rights to freely express themselves.
Gailon, I don't quite understand ...
1) What does the "information" of Forum and varous SDA news entities, including AToday, Spectrum & et al have to do with their legal action against you? (Perhaps it is merely meant to confuse/bury information/consume your time??)
2) Does this "information" include information you have actually requested?
Relevancy is a very good question. Can't imagine they will be introducing much, if any of the information without adding significantly to their witness list. Problem is, they will probably be very disappointed to not find Linda Sue Shelton among any of the bloggers. In fact, most would be well beyond the reach of a trial subpoena. Therefore, they would have to expand the lawsuite to add parties to be certain they would be available for trial. That is an expensive expansion for them, but not outside the realm of feasibility. On the other hand, if you know the preponderance of the evidence is against you based upon the allegations against Gailon Arthur Joy and Bob Pickle, how else do you position yourself strategically to win at least something???
On the other hand, if they add Linda Shelton or Derrel Mundall they face crucifixion as they open themselves to serious counterclaims. But, they may face this, regardless of their trial strategy.
As to requested information, it may be in the realm of requested documentation, but not the information we know they have and still have not produced, because they hope for a favorable confidentiality order from the Judge. For us, we always have the Hearing De Noveau on the Confidentiality order before Judge Saylor if the order comes up unfavorably from the Magistrate Judge. Since the Magistrate Judge clearly knows Judge Saylor, he is unlikely to step outside the bounds of Saylor's thinking on the matter.
In the event we are unhappy with the confidentiality order at the district court level, there is always the possibility of an interlocutory appeal to the First Circuit Court of Appeals. Given that Saylor seems to be very much is line with First Circuit rulings, I doubt this would be neccesary, but the option is clearly there.
The entire direction of this case now awaits the belated decision on confidentiality that should have been resolved back in August of 2007. Since confidentiality is not an issue for us, we had no motivation to deal with the issue. They brought it up but given Judge Saylor's clear position at the time, they opted to not address it until the more favorably disposed Magistrate Judge would be the arbiter. Again, I doubt it will be a lot of help to them, but only time and an order will tell the tale with any clarity.
When we have final clarity, we will then be able to press forward with the discovery and get critical documents such as the 11 sets of bank Statements over eight years, add that to the documents from Remnant Publications and compare that to the Auditors documents and we should then have a complete picture that should represent a whole new set of problems for the Plaintiff's case. The financial experts should have a field day with all that information. Then we will be ready to conduct depositions that will clarify and lock in the testimony for the key witnesses on the other side.
Put any deal or a charge from the IRS into the mix and it will be summary judgement time on key issues. Assuming we have some parties with serious counterclaims in the mix and we have a gloomy outlook for the well heeled directors and officers of 3ABN. Unfortunately, it may well turn out the donors will pay the freight, but then, just maybe the donors may be the Directors. Poetic Justice, in my opinion!!!!
I hope that gives some clarity and if not, feel free to ask again.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Gailon,
Is there any indication as to when Judge Saylor will rule on the confidentiality issues?
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Gailon,
Is there any indication as to when Judge Saylor will rule on the confidentiality issues?
Discovery issues were referred by Judge Saylor to Magistrate Judge Hillman. The hearing on the confidentiality motion by Plaintiff's was heard by Judge Hillman. Judge Hillman took the issue under advisement and invited both sides to submit Proposed Confidentiality and Privilege Orders. In fact, I filed a proposed order, Bob proposed a modified proposed order and Counselors Hayes and Richards submitted their proposed order. We await a decision by Judge Hillman and thought it might be done by last week. Frankly, it is not easy to craft such a significant order and takes careful consideration to protect all the respective rights of the parties. Add to the mix that we are journalists with a propensity to publish newsworthy information and it further complicates the issue. You have a collision of rights of privacy vs right to know...a classic nightmare for any judiciary. But, they have faced it before and always seem to come up with well crafted orders that can protect all the various interests...not necessarily to either sides preferred position. So. we wait and see!!!
In the interim we press on as do they.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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It seems to me that they would have very little information that would need to be kept confidential. Except so that they are taken to court etc etc.
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Has it been made clear to the readers of AT what has become of the confidentiality issue? In non-legal terms?
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Has it been made clear to the readers of AT what has become of the confidentiality issue? In non-legal terms?
Would you clarify please Johann? I am not sure what you mean by 'what has become of the 'confidentiality issue', but an explanation would be useful IMO.
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Several references have been made to the confidentiality issue. I need a further clarification. If it is there I have not noticed it. Have you?
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A major roadblock to the production of documents and discovery of information from 3ABN has been the assertiian that some documents are highly confidential, proprietary or privileged in some way. A confidentiality order paves the way and eliminates some of the roadblocks to discovery.
In other words, they are out of excuses in some issues. Other issues will still require requests to compel and other process or procedure to recover.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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In the tax case the state/etc. asked for filled out forms for satellite system orders. 3ABN objected on the grounds that that info was confidential.
The state/etc. sought a protective order so they could get the info, and lost. All the7y ended up with was blank forms.
Then while Danny was on the stand, Atty. Rhoades was trying to admit into evidence those forms. Nick Miller objected because the forms had to be filled out in order to be admitted into evidence. So Rhoades explained that they had tried to get filled out forms and had been prohibited from doing so.
Judge Rowe had mercy on poor Rhoades, and allowed the blank form to be admitted into evidence.
I can see how filled out forms would have been relevant. I think the state/etc. wanted all such forms. They could then have better determined whether 3ABN was oeprating with a view to profit or not.
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In the tax case the state/etc. asked for filled out forms for satellite system orders. 3ABN objected on the grounds that that info was confidential.
The state/etc. sought a protective order so they could get the info, and lost. All the7y ended up with was blank forms.
Then while Danny was on the stand, Atty. Rhoades was trying to admit into evidence those forms. Nick Miller objected because the forms had to be filled out in order to be admitted into evidence. So Rhoades explained that they had tried to get filled out forms and had been prohibited from doing so.
Judge Rowe had mercy on poor Rhoades, and allowed the blank form to be admitted into evidence.
I can see how filled out forms would have been relevant. I think the state/etc. wanted all such forms. They could then have better determined whether 3ABN was oeprating with a view to profit or not.
Are you telling me that 3ABN objected to a confidentiality order? One must wonder just what was in those records that makes them confidential enough to keep them from being entered into the record.
GAJ
GAJ
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We have received copies of a new subpoena to BSDA.
Same old, same old. Guess they are prepped now for a good fight. Both sides are lawyered up and I am sure the battle will be hard fought by all the parties.
This case is turning into World War 3. Keeps you busy just keeping up with all the new swirl of cases that are arising from the ashes.
Think of the legal fees that will be billable hours this year.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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I wonder what SDA churches would think of all these subpoenas and lawsuits coming from 3ABN? Maybe it's time to find out.....
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I think so. I've thought of doing a mailing...
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I think so. I've thought of doing a mailing...
Worthwhile thinking about anyway.
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Posted by: ex3abnemployee
Insert Quote
I wonder what SDA churches would think of all these subpoenas and lawsuits coming from 3ABN? Maybe it's time to find out.....
I agree. People need to know what's happening. And seeing the proof is better then trusting what someone tells you - like what the employees at 3abn are probably told about things. Even they need to know the facts.
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Posted by: ex3abnemployee
Insert Quote
I wonder what SDA churches would think of all these subpoenas and lawsuits coming from 3ABN? Maybe it's time to find out.....
I agree. People need to know what's happening. And seeing the proof is better then trusting what someone tells you - like what the employees at 3abn are probably told about things. Even they need to know the facts.
As one can see in the allegations in the Lawsuite, 3ABN accused us of mailing all the churches about the Save3abn site...a simply brilliant idea that we cannot take credit for, but which I most heartily endorse if one wants to undertake such an effort...someday I will get the chance to Shake the Hand and put a medal upon the chest of this brilliant marketer and kick myself in the can for not thinking of it myself!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Posted by: ex3abnemployee
Insert Quote
I wonder what SDA churches would think of all these subpoenas and lawsuits coming from 3ABN? Maybe it's time to find out.....
I agree. People need to know what's happening. And seeing the proof is better then trusting what someone tells you - like what the employees at 3abn are probably told about things. Even they need to know the facts.
As one can see in the allegations in the Lawsuite, 3ABN accused us of mailing all the churches about the Save3abn
I had no idea you did that Gailon.
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Sorry, hit the wrong button...had to finish the post by modification.
GAJ
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I guess the medal will go to Duane!! But I can jump on a bandwagon real quick!!
Posted by: ex3abnemployee
Insert Quote
I wonder what SDA churches would think of all these subpoenas and lawsuits coming from 3ABN? Maybe it's time to find out.....
I agree. People need to know what's happening. And seeing the proof is better then trusting what someone tells you - like what the employees at 3abn are probably told about things. Even they need to know the facts.
As one can see in the allegations in the Lawsuite, 3ABN accused us of mailing all the churches about the Save3abn site...a simply brilliant idea that we cannot take credit for, but which I most heartily endorse if one wants to undertake such an effort...someday I will get the chance to Shake the Hand and put a medal upon the chest of this brilliant marketer and kick myself in the can for not thinking of it myself!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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I think so. I've thought of doing a mailing...
Well, you can if you want but tons of people in the churches, conferences and GC have heard all about the lawsuit and most are in complete agreement after becoming aware of what has been written and alleged.
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Really, Sam?? Tons of people? How many people is that, exactly? Just a couple of really heavy people? Or a lot more lighter folks? And you have spoken with all of them? My, you must be tired!!
I think so. I've thought of doing a mailing...
Well, you can if you want but tons of people in the churches, conferences and GC have heard all about the lawsuit and most are in complete agreement after becoming aware of what has been written and alleged.
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I agree. People need to know what's happening. And seeing the proof is better then trusting what someone tells you - like what the employees at 3abn are probably told about things. Even they need to know the facts.
I heard that some of the 3ABN employees don't know what is going on. Is that true?
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I think so. I've thought of doing a mailing...
Well, you can if you want but tons of people in the churches, conferences and GC have heard all about the lawsuit and most are in complete agreement after becoming aware of what has been written and alleged.
SAM, do you have a reference to this poll? It is critical to our defense. You see, 3ABN claims they have been damaged and if that can be proven not to be the case...then 3ABN has no case...but then,
does that mean the dog has been chasing his own tail?
And how about all those legal fees for nothing?
Hey, Bob, did you get that...SAM is now a key witness...wonder if he qualifies as an expert?
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Want me to fill out a subpoena?
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Want me to fill out a subpoena?
You would have to open a John Doe action and do a rule 27 deposition to get him served. But the data is critical. Wouldn't 3ABN have this information? Could simply do a request to produce to 3ABN and use SAM's Advent Talk statement as the foundation for that request.
Course 3ABN might start a witch-hunt to figure out who SAM is and why he would be giving away crirtical information, but that is SAM my man's problem.
Summary, let's go for it!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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I can see how Sam could be a very important witness for you. That helps a lot!
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Inquiring minds are wondering how and where the subpoena will be served on John Doe?
And how relevant, or important is Sam's post to the case? And why would 3ABN even care or be concerned with one anonymous internet poster's impression and view? And why are Pickle and Joy?
This would seem to me to be a futile grasping at a straw by both Pickle and Joy, oh.. and Johann...
Truth is donations fell in wake of the save-3abn site and all the public posts, and talk on the forums and gossip spread,but as this has continued it has become so petty and so ridiculous that it appears people are not listening, for 3abn's donations are no longer suffering as they were.
The Lawsuit seeks to recover the previous losses, both monetarily and reputation and characterwise. How things are now has nothing to do with how they were, and why the lawsuit was filed.
To my way of thinking, there is a lack of common sense and reason when arguing about all this that does not bode well for Pickle nor Joy in this lawsuit... and that probably has alot to do with the fact that donations are going back up...
my 2 cents
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... but as this has continued it has become so petty and so ridiculous ....
Certainly you aren't saying that allegations of child molestation or incest or unbiblical divorce are petty.
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... but as this has continued it has become so petty and so ridiculous ....
Certainly you aren't saying that allegations of child molestation or incest or unbiblical divorce are petty.
I could care less about allegations, they are a dime a dozen and mean nothing if they are not true.
I would dare to say, that Bob Pickle could care less about any "alleged" victims. His whole focus is accusing Danny Shelton and the 3ABN board of covering up such. That's it, just something to accuse Danny Shelton and the board with. How will that stop an alleged child molestor, or help alleged victims?!?
Truth is it won't. No one in their right mind goes after an alleged "child molester's" employer (actually former employer) while ignoring the "alleged child molestor" and alleged victims.
That is absolutely ludicrous.
Why would I say this? Well there aren't even any alleged children who have been molested at 3ABN... or while TS was working there... or even within the SDA Church, nor is TS even a member of the SDA Church and subject to investigation or discipline by our Church.
Pickle and Joy have allegedly gathered the info and the facts, but have they taken them to the police or the Prosecutor? Have they encouraged the "alleged" victims to proceed with any kind of action?
Truth is Tommy Shelton is a member of the Church of God, the allegations were brought up there, and investigated there and by the police over 20 years ago. As far as I know regarding any new allegations goes (and I don't count old accusations being brought back up as new allegations like Pickle does) , well last I heard Dryden, the one who brought all this up, and Pastor of the Church of God, (who would have the right to act in this matter,) still hadn't even told his Church board who any victims even were.. so even they could not act, and nor could TS explain or defend himself with any specifics. And last I heard the DA knew about all this junk and said there was nothing to act on...
When it was brought to the attention of the 3ABN board, their Chairman investigated and found nothing to act on, and told Pickle that, but that wasn't good enough for Pickle...
Them's the known facts people.
If Pickle and Joy know something they haven't told, if the Pastor of the COG, Glenn Dryden does, and they aren't doing anything about it, or trying to help any 'alleged" victims, then they are the ones covering up and hiding things, and they are the guilty ones. And if they do not have allegations with substance which can be verified by identified victims accounts and such, then they have done a terrible wrong to not only DS and 3ABN, but to Tommy Shelton himself who has been maligned and vilified and not able to address or answer any specific accuser or evidence... as it's all just done in the dark and from the shadowns anonymously.
That is terrible.
That's why I get so sick of the way Mr Pickle keeps bringing this up and finding fault with others. He and Joy took it on themselves when they decided to investigate, now they are accountable.
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Inquiring minds are wondering how and where the subpoena will be served on John Doe?
And how relevant, or important is Sam's post to the case? And why would 3ABN even care or be concerned with one anonymous internet poster's impression and view? And why are Pickle and Joy?
This would seem to me to be a futile grasping at a straw by both Pickle and Joy, oh.. and Johann...
my 2 cents
My dear young lady;
SAM my man is the one who claims to have key information that would undermine their damages claim.
My assumption is that you can read and interpret what was said. Of course, you could consult with your friend in Ohio and develop a more appropriate view.
As to the wherefor, look at rule 27 and you will see how these cases are done. FRCP Rule 27.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Truth is donations fell in wake of the save-3abn site and all the public posts, and talk on the forums and gossip spread,but as this has continued it has become so petty and so ridiculous that it appears people are not listening, for 3abn's donations are no longer suffering as they were.
The Lawsuit seeks to recover the previous losses, both monetarily and reputation and characterwise. How things are now has nothing to do with how they were, and why the lawsuit was filed.
To my way of thinking, there is a lack of common sense and reason when arguing about all this that does not bode well for Pickle nor Joy in this lawsuit... and that probably has alot to do with the fact that donations are going back up...
my 2 cents
Ian the blind:
Have you not taken time to review the 990's??? They clearly bely the premise you have perpetuated. In fact, donations dropped dramatically after two major events:
Revelation of the Jet, the tax case and other issues in 2002 to 2003;
The remarriage, the follow-up of the loss of Sky Angel, the Allyssa letter, all events that occurred well before our intervention in October and our releases beginning in December regarding the Tommy Ray Shelton evidence.
And the website did not begin until late January 2007 after the board had voted to file suite against Joy and Pickle.
Is your timeline deficient or are you simply mis-informed?
Better plan on attending the trial to get a much better picture of what happend when and why.
Gailon Arthur Joy
PS: I forgot to mention that 2 cents is about what your synopsis is worth.
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Speaking of 990s, isn't it about time for the 2007 form to be filed?
Ian the blind:
Have you not taken time to review the 990's??? They clearly bely the premise you have perpetuated. In fact, donations dropped dramatically after two major events:
Revelation of the Jet, the tax case and other issues in 2002 to 2003;
The remarriage, the follow-up of the loss of Sky Angel, the Allyssa letter, all events that occurred well before our intervention in October and our releases beginning in December regarding the Tommy Ray Shelton evidence.
And the website did not begin until late January 2007 after the board had voted to file suite against Joy and Pickle.
Is your timeline deficient or are you simply mis-informed?
Better plan on attending the trial to get a much better picture of what happend when and why.
Gailon Arthur Joy
PS: I forgot to mention that 2 cents is about what your synopsis is worth.
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Inquiring minds are wondering how and where the subpoena will be served on John Doe?
And how relevant, or important is Sam's post to the case? And why would 3ABN even care or be concerned with one anonymous internet poster's impression and view? And why are Pickle and Joy?
This would seem to me to be a futile grasping at a straw by both Pickle and Joy, oh.. and Johann...
my 2 cents
My dear young lady;
SAM my man is the one who claims to have key information that would undermine their damages claim.
My assumption is that you can read and interpret what was said. Of course, you could consult with your friend in Ohio and develop a more appropriate view.
As to the wherefor, look at rule 27 and you will see how these cases are done. FRCP Rule 27.
Gailon Arthur Joy
hmmm I must have missed that post and claim of Sam's, I thought it was you claiming that...
In any case:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcp/Rule27.htm
All should look at the rule, including yourself...
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Truth is donations fell in wake of the save-3abn site and all the public posts, and talk on the forums and gossip spread,but as this has continued it has become so petty and so ridiculous that it appears people are not listening, for 3abn's donations are no longer suffering as they were.
The Lawsuit seeks to recover the previous losses, both monetarily and reputation and characterwise. How things are now has nothing to do with how they were, and why the lawsuit was filed.
To my way of thinking, there is a lack of common sense and reason when arguing about all this that does not bode well for Pickle nor Joy in this lawsuit... and that probably has alot to do with the fact that donations are going back up...
my 2 cents
Ian the blind:
Have you not taken time to review the 990's??? They clearly bely the premise you have perpetuated. In fact, donations dropped dramatically after two major events:
Revelation of the Jet, the tax case and other issues in 2002 to 2003;
The remarriage, the follow-up of the loss of Sky Angel, the Allyssa letter, all events that occurred well before our intervention in October and our releases beginning in December regarding the Tommy Ray Shelton evidence.
And the website did not begin until late January 2007 after the board had voted to file suite against Joy and Pickle.
Is your timeline deficient or are you simply mis-informed?
Better plan on attending the trial to get a much better picture of what happend when and why.
Gailon Arthur Joy
PS: I forgot to mention that 2 cents is about what your synopsis is worth.
My timeline is fine.. You were never sent a cease and desist letter till after your website came online... the lawsuit was filed much later..
You can prove your uninformed arguments re the 990's, and your opinions about donations being up or down and why in court, and yes I would love to witness that attempt.
BTW & fwiw, your namecalling and insults are probably not according to this forum's rules... certainly they aren't necessary... ;)
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So Ian, you are saying that because the "alleged" molestation victims were not SDA children you don't care about them? :huh:
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My timeline is fine.. You were never sent a cease and desist letter till after your website came online... the lawsuit was filed much later..
You can prove your uninformed arguments re the 990's, and your opinions about donations being up or down and why in court, and yes I would love to witness that attempt.
BTW & fwiw, your namecalling and insults are probably not according to this forum's rules... certainly they aren't necessary... ;)
Your timeline is not fine!!! In fact, we received word from Southern Illinois, specifically citizens of West Frankfort, that Danny Lee Shelton was quite bravado about filing suite against four people (Linda Sue Shelton, Gaioln Arthur Joy, Bob Pickle, Gregory Matthews) in late December. Our information is that the directors took up the lawsuite in their New Years meeting and then met on it again in late January.
The original complaint included allegations regarding Tommy Ray Shelton and the board at the end of February ordered the complaint redrafted to eliminate all the allegations relating to the Tommy Ray Shelton, a clear dichotomy from the cease and desist letter from Duffy.
Further, the first bill from the Minnesota Lawfirm was sent to Tommy Ray Shelton's address in Kentucky.
So, would you like to cite any evidence that refutes this very clear timeline? Or do you have to call your contacts to get clarification?
I will advise you of the trial dates so you can be sure and be their...bring a notepad and get it straight.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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That is absolutely ludicrous.
Why would I say this? Well there aren't even any alleged children who have been molested at 3ABN... or while TS was working there... or even within the SDA Church, nor is TS even a member of the SDA Church and subject to investigation or discipline by our Church.
[Incidents at 3ABN with male employees would be SEXUAL HARRASSMENT not pedophilia, and if the President was made aware and failed to take corrective actions, then the corporation has clear accountability ]
Pickle and Joy have allegedly gathered the info and the facts, but have they taken them to the police or the Prosecutor? Have they encouraged the "alleged" victims to proceed with any kind of action?
[Joy and Pickle are journalists...not criminal investigators...nor were we directors of 3ABN...nor were we officers of 3ABN...these are the people responsible to oversee what went on at 3ABN and miserably failed...and it is out responsibility to report findings, findings you clearly do not like but must face sooner or later ]
Truth is Tommy Shelton is a member of the Church of God, the allegations were brought up there, and investigated there and by the police over 20 years ago. As far as I know regarding any new allegations goes (and I don't count old accusations being brought back up as new allegations like Pickle does) , well last I heard Dryden, the one who brought all this up, and Pastor of the Church of God, (who would have the right to act in this matter,) still hadn't even told his Church board who any victims even were.. so even they could not act, and nor could TS explain or defend himself with any specifics. And last I heard the DA knew about all this junk and said there was nothing to act on...
[1) The legal authorities did receive a complaint, as did the police in many of the priest complaints and did nothing without rock solid evidence... but does not mean there was nothing there, anymore than Simpson beating the wrap made him innocent. And by the way, we are told that it was Danny's direct intercession with his friends in the Sheriff and police departments that is reportedly a big reason no chargs were filed. Remember, the criminal test is always a steeper hill to climb than a civil action (beyond a reasonable doubt versus a preponderonce of the evidence)
And by the way...the pastor did identify to his directorate some of the victims in Virginia and we had to advise them of at least one other (yes, Ian, we have a written ststement regarding incidents in Virginia). ]
When it was brought to the attention of the 3ABN board, their Chairman investigated and found nothing to act on, and told Pickle that, but that wasn't good enough for Pickle...
[Wrong again...the Chairman DID NOT INVESTIGATE and if he had, Tommy would not have replaced Linda Sue Shelton...I would hope???]
Them's the known facts people.
[Them's the spin...the facts are that several victims have made clear and concise allegations and cannot be ignored, regardless of the blinders...they are real victims and real allegations and should not be ignored but INVESTIGATED to avoid further liability...but such has never been the case at 3ABN until recently...and Tommy's own Church found the allegations not only worthy of INVESTIGATION but had a clear basis for their action to defrock Tommy...something a Seventh-day Adventist supporting Ministry simply ignored and hoped the entire issue would GO AWAY...but it did not and it will not!!!
If Pickle and Joy know something they haven't told, if the Pastor of the COG, Glenn Dryden does, and they aren't doing anything about it, or trying to help any 'alleged" victims, then they are the ones covering up and hiding things, and they are the guilty ones. And if they do not have allegations with substance which can be verified by identified victims accounts and such, then they have done a terrible wrong to not only DS and 3ABN, but to Tommy Shelton himself who has been maligned and vilified and not able to address or answer any specific accuser or evidence... as it's all just done in the dark and from the shadowns anonymously.
That is terrible.
[Tommy has had every chance to respond...AND HUNG UP...but did choose to have his attorney write intimidating letters and did write an open letter that is far from convincing and fails to be supported by the evidence...and did also joinder in the original case that is part of this action but got cut...wonder if Tommy got a clean bill of health from the 3ABN lawyers???
Again, we are journalists...we are not prosecutors...but, let me assure you that when the time is right the victims can pursue their claims...in the interim the statute of limitation tolls away waiting for just the right moment. ]
That's why I get so sick of the way Mr Pickle keeps bringing this up and finding fault with others. He and Joy took it on themselves when they decided to investigate, now they are accountable.
[Accountable for what, reporting the facts that we have been presented with? Again, we investigate and report the findings, unless they prove that the reports were seriously erroneous and maliciously so, then the preponderence of the evidence will leave the wrong people holding the jury verdict bag. So, you will get a lot sicker before this is over, particularly as you sit and see the evidence. Again, keep very good notes. I will provide the emisis basin ]
Gailon Arthur Joy
NOTE: Edited by Snoopy to separate quotes from responses
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I think so. I've thought of doing a mailing...
Well, you can if you want but tons of people in the churches, conferences and GC have heard all about the lawsuit and most are in complete agreement after becoming aware of what has been written and alleged.
SAM, do you have a reference to this poll? It is critical to our defense. You see, 3ABN claims they have been damaged and if that can be proven not to be the case...then 3ABN has no case...but then,
does that mean the dog has been chasing his own tail?
And how about all those legal fees for nothing?
Hey, Bob, did you get that...SAM is now a key witness...wonder if he qualifies as an expert?
Gailon Arthur Joy
The "other" spin master speaks again. Please provide some sort of explanation of how you could tie the fact that a lot of people would sue you, as 3abn did, with your statement that 3abn wasn't hurt? Let me explain. These are 2 different subject matters and have no correlation whatsoever. So, spin away, but it's not workin.
Oh speaking of working, how exactly are you living these days? According to your public bankruptcy, you have no money and you haven't had a "real" job in quite sometime so how are you feeding your family and keeping a roof over your head? This may or may not apply here but the Word says a man who won't work and take care of his family is worse than an infadel. I bet that applies even when a person claims they are so busy fighting for the "cause of God" they don't have time to work. Normally your financial state would be nobody's business but since you are trying to make a name for yourself by nosing into everyone else's business I think it only fair you account for your mode of living since you are supposed to be the priest of your household.
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Oh speaking of working, how exactly are you living these days? According to your public bankruptcy, you have no money and you haven't had a "real" job in quite sometime so how are you feeding your family and keeping a roof over your head? This may or may not apply here but the Word says a man who won't work and take care of his family is worse than an infadel. I bet that applies even when a person claims they are so busy fighting for the "cause of God" they don't have time to work. Normally your financial state would be nobody's business but since you are trying to make a name for yourself by nosing into everyone else's business I think it only fair you account for your mode of living since you are supposed to be the priest of your household.
A loving and loveable Christian are you Sam?
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The "other" spin master speaks again. Please provide some sort of explanation of how you could tie the fact that a lot of people would sue you, as 3abn did, with your statement that 3abn wasn't hurt? Let me explain. These are 2 different subject matters and have no correlation whatsoever. So, spin away, but it's not workin.
Sam, he wasn't spinning. He was simply basing what he said on what you said:
Well, you can if you want but tons of people in the churches, conferences and GC have heard all about the lawsuit and most are in complete agreement after becoming aware of what has been written and alleged.
So according to you, if all these people are in complete agreement with Danny Shelton and 3ABN's actions as you claim, which I would think is about akin to declaring the Adventist Church to be in apostasy, and so I don't believe it, if all these people are in complete agreement, then 3ABN and Danny Shelton's reputations are not hurt and they are not damaged.
You can't have it both ways. Either they are damaged or not. If they are damaged, then they believe things are awry. If they aren't damaged, then they believe things are not awry.
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...
Oh speaking of working, how exactly are you living these days? According to your public bankruptcy, you have no money and you haven't had a "real" job in quite sometime so how are you feeding your family and keeping a roof over your head? This may or may not apply here but the Word says a man who won't work and take care of his family is worse than an infidel. I bet that applies even when a person claims they are so busy fighting for the "cause of God" they don't have time to work. Normally your financial state would be no body's business but since you are trying to make a name for yourself by nosing into everyone else's business I think it only fair you account for your mode of living since you are supposed to be the priest of your household.
Sam;
I don't know Gailon or Bob personally as friends; therefore I know nothing about the finances of either one. However, I do know that they are spending their time trying to fight the suit brought against them by Danny Shelton and 3ABN. They started hunting and they are still to this day finding new information.
They were forced to do this to prove that they were not the cause of the beginning of reduced income for 3ABN. I have seen the 90's and find that income was affected long before Gailon and Bob were ever heard of.
There is another way to see this situation. IF indeed, Gailon has no income. Could it be he has no time to work because he is "David against Goliath ( Danny Shelton and 3ABN)?" They have been forced to defend themselves against false accusations. It is fact that 3ABN's income began a downfall way before anyone ever heard of Gailon or Bob. 3ABN and Danny Shelton will have to compensate all of the losses pushed on Gailon and Bob when this is over. In my perception, I see this as a great loss to 3ABN. Could it be that the lawsuit is actually hurting 3ABN?
I am still trying to figure out why 3ABN sued the Property Tax Lawsuit against IL! That was 3ABN's downfall! The findings of that Lawsuit caused serious losses to income at 3ABN. The audit of 3ABN was so revealing! All the lawsuit did was cause anyone reading it to pause and reconsider giving to 3ABN. I believe that this was the pivotal point in the history of 3ABN.
They lost the suit they filed against IL. What were the legal fees for that lawsuit? The findings of the Judge Rowe were harsh and unkind. 3ABN's lawyers thought they had an open and shut case. I believe it was the making statements that did not match someone else's testimony. The inconsistencies in sworn testimony, and the choice to not provide what was asked for during the audit, caused the great loss to 3ABN. They had to pay the lawyers for the loss. Then 3ABN poured good money after bad to fight the first findings of round one. Again there is a loss! More attorney fees had to be paid, and now all those taxes that had not been paid since the lawsuit began, have to be paid.
We now have another lawsuit against Bob and Gailon, filed by Danny Shelton's and 3ABN. They are suing their Christian brothers for something they had nothing to do with at all. It was the Property Tax Lawsuit that cause this mess to begin.
Then there was the divorce without Biblical ground. Then in July, maybe a month after the divorce, Danny's current wife appears on the scene. Just like clockwork. The Internet discussions started in 2004. Could this be another cause for donors to be leaving rather quickly? Could this be the true cause in income dropping?
Also, reading the IRS Form 990's for 3ABN shows a completely different story.
Now, Sam, help me understand why 3ABN/Danny Shelton filed the suit in the first place? Could it have been the information on the then website http://www.save3abn.com was revealing too much information supporting Bob and Gailon? Was the suite filed to get rid of the website?
In any business, the person that has the greatest interest in the finances, will do several cost/benefit analyses of certain aspects of the business. Many businesses merge and both are controlled by the buyer. Before the purchase, they run a very serious cost/benefit analysis. They are careful not to purchase a looser UNLESS they have a very high confidence they can turn the company around, It must become a superior income entity so there will be a synergy between the two business. However, there are times the entity is purchased, but the cost/benefit analysis was calculated on erroneous information! They have made a mistake! They find the new company that was added has become seriously dipping into the cash reserves. The company is a looser, but the owner decided to get the company out of the loosing streak. Many dollars are spend in support. The buyer will try to find out exactly what the cause of the downfall is. Then they must stop the hole in the dyke! The cash draining must stop at a certain point.
When, or how long will the financier allow the block to remain causing further damage. It is an act of last resort, but when a financier sees that things will not happen, they realize that the cash drainer as a purchase was a total loss. They will then pull out and let the business sink or swim! Then, again, they may be forced to continue throwing good money after bad because they are being blackmailed. That has happened before.
So Sam, If you look closely you will see that Gailon and Joy had nothing to do with the reason 3ABN has been loosing cash, when, in fact, they had financial GAIN since Gailon and Joy came into the scene.
Thank you for your comments. If, in truth, Gailon has no income, should 3ABN let Bob and Gailon alone so they CAN take care of their families? What would Jesus do?
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That is absolutely ludicrous.
Why would I say this? Well there aren't even any alleged children who have been molested at 3ABN... or while TS was working there... or even within the SDA Church, nor is TS even a member of the SDA Church and subject to investigation or discipline by our Church.
[Incidents at 3ABN with male employees would be SEXUAL HARRASSMENT not pedophilia, and if the President was made aware and failed to take corrective actions, then the corporation has clear accountability ]
You mean "one former male employee" claimed that?
One male employee who's wife said that was false, one who's children aren't allowed to be alone with him, and are not even supported by him? ( But don't accept hearsay, whether from me or your "source"! Go to the court and get the records for yourself Gailon! prove all things!) and one who was himself fired from 3ABN? You really ought to examine the source of this claim and his reliability and whether he is quilty of the things another has been accused of b4 you take up his cause and trumpet his accusations to the world as fact. And you really ought to know if it was reported, and what he did and said when confronted with his story. before you put your reputation, and credibility on the line with this. Because I'm quite sure if you and Pickle get your way and all this is brought up in court, all of what I referred to is going to be documented to rebut your claims...
But, thank you for clearing up one issue here, "it's not pedophilia" So we can all put that to rest once and for all.
I already knew there was no child molestation or even allegations of child molestation, except from your little group. And there's a big problem here Gailon. For your Partner, Pickle and so many others have been consistantly claiming children were molested, and that there are allegations of child abuse, ie; pedophilia and that DS and 3ABN covered up allegations of child molestation, and clearly 3ABN should have instituted precautions to protect children and since they didn't they endangered children. etc etc etc...
And "child molestation" and Pedophilia, is what your website, and Adventist Today, and the forums via your partner Pickle has reported to the world. And so many posters and readers have believed it and repeated it, especially those who jumped on the bandwagon because they have a history of being abused or molested, and are concerned about those issues. So they in turn have attacked and maligned all who tried to speak up and say this wasn't true, and accused us of protecting a child molestor and not caring about the children who were molested, when there is in fact no children who were molested, and no child molestor.
2 b continued...
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Ian, do you also believe that the Holocaust didn't happen?
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Ian has trouble keeping her facts straight. So Gailon refers to complaints by one former employee, and Ian appears to take that to mean that Roger Clem and the sons of Moms in Pain #1 and #2 never existed.
Ian, the son of Mom in Pain #1 personally told me that he thought he was 8 at the time. Would that classify as an allegation of child molestation?
If you have court documents stating a fellow can't be alone with his kids, then post them.
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So they in turn have attacked and maligned all who tried to speak up and say this wasn't true, and accused us of protecting a child molestor and not caring about the children who were molested, when there is in fact no children who were molested, and no child molestor.
How can you say that, Ian?
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Ian:
Pickle and Joy have allegedly gathered the info and the facts, but have they taken them to the police or the Prosecutor? Have they encouraged the "alleged" victims to proceed with any kind of action?
Gailon Joy:
Joy and Pickle are journalists...
Ian:
Only if you each keep a diary or a journal, for you certainly don't write for any magazines or newspapers...
Gailon Joy:
not criminal investigators...
Ian:
hmmm...
You are aware that your partner Pickle admitted to doing a interview with Adventist Today regarding these very allegations and that they published that, and then you also published the following on your website?
Adventist Investigators
Much of the pressure that Tommy Shelton now faces has come from the efforts of a small, informal network of Seventh-day Adventist individuals. Many in the group categorize themselves as conservative Adventists, a constituency 3ABN has long relied on for key support. For the past five months, this unpaid volunteer group has investigated a number of allegations against Danny Shelton and 3ABN. Some they have found to be true, while others have proved to be false. Doing their work primarily via telephone and e-mail, the group has interviewed dozens of people who have had connections with 3ABN and the Shelton family over the last 20 years.
Two members of the network—Gailon Arthur Joy, a loan officer trainer from Sterling, Massachusetts, and Bob Pickle, a webmaster and Adventist apologist from Halstad, Minnesota—have posted the findings of their investigation on the Internet.... Joy has registered a website at www.save3abn.com that contains documents and statements from various sources involved in the group's investigation of Tommy Shelton. As of press time, the site had received more than 1,900 hits.
Gailon Joy:
nor were we directors of 3ABN...nor were we officers of 3ABN...these are the people responsible to oversee what went on at 3ABN and miserably failed...and it is out responsibility to report findings, findings you clearly do not like but must face sooner or later
Ian:
No these are claims you must face and prove in court Gailon...
Ian:
Truth is Tommy Shelton is a member of the Church of God, the allegations were brought up there, and investigated there and by the police over 20 years ago. As far as I know regarding any new allegations goes (and I don't count old accusations being brought back up as new allegations like Pickle does) , well last I heard Dryden, the one who brought all this up, and Pastor of the Church of God, (who would have the right to act in this matter,) still hadn't even told his Church board who any victims even were.. so even they could not act, and nor could TS explain or defend himself with any specifics. And last I heard the DA knew about all this junk and said there was nothing to act on...
Gailon Joy:
The legal authorities did receive a complaint... And by the way, we are told that it was Danny's direct intercession with his friends in the Sheriff and police departments that is reportedly a big reason no chargs were filed....
Ian:
That says it all again, You were told...
Reminds me of that old song "Heard it from a friend, who heard it from a friend..."
Who was Danny back then that he could influence a whole Sheriff's and Police department to void their conscience and do wrong? He was a carpenter, Gailon.
Has it ever occured to you that your constant reliance on suspicions, surmisings, and questionable hearsay, and your constant claims that any time, and actually everytime, anyone , (no matter who they are, whether that be conference officials, publishers, other ministries, board members, ASI, 3abn employees, police, etc. etc etc..) supports or backs up anything 3ABN says in contradiction of that hearsay/slander or your opinions and judgments based on such, that they are liars, crooked or have some thing wrong with them, and only you have the real facts and truth (despite not being a witness, or involved, and not having the information that they have) are a bit hard for rational thinking people to accept?
Gailon Joy:
And by the way...the pastor did identify to his directorate some of the victims in Virginia and we had to advise them of at least one other (yes, Ian, we have a written ststement regarding incidents in Virginia).
Ian:
I do hope that's not a written statement from Pastor Glenn Dryden of the Church of God.
Duane Clem:
"Your "informant", Glenn Dryden, is not a credible source of information. He also made some hideous accusations against me a few years back. They were for the same reason as the ones he is leveling against Tommy Shelton: JEALOUSY. Glenn Dryden is a spiteful, vindictive backstabber when someone crosses him. He has done this with numerous people over the past several years, and took the Ezra Church of God down nearly to the point of closure. I had to threaten him with legal action myself to get him to shut his mouth."
From: Duane Clem
To: Glenn Dryden
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 06:44:54 +0000
Let this serve as a warning. If you mention my name in any of the letters and emails you're sending to anyone in your latest attack on Tommy Shelton, you WILL regret it.
Duane Clem
Ian:
In light of Joy's new claims here, I'm writing to the church of God in Dunn Loring, Virginia again, and will get back to this forum when and if I hear anything.
Ian:
When it was brought to the attention of the 3ABN board, their Chairman investigated and found nothing to act on, and told Pickle that, but that wasn't good enough for Pickle...
Gailon Joy:
Wrong again...the Chairman DID NOT INVESTIGATE...
Ian:
YES, he most certainly did.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Possible way to win 3ABN critics.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:04:53 -0600
From: Walt Thompson
Dear Bob,
Thank you for you attempt to understand my sensitivity and that of 3abn administratin and board. We believe we have acted responsibly and wisely, appropriate to the circumstances. While one can always be criticized after the fact and without all of the evidence then available for consideration, often those same critics would have made similar judgments had they been there.
As I recall the events of 2003, I received a call from Brad Thorp from the General Conference telling me of Pastor Dryden's accusations. Brad appropriately told me that it was not his concern, and that it was ours to handle. As I recall, I contacted pastor Dryden and heard his side of the story following which I received the letter that is circulating. I was at 3abn at the time and spoke at length with Danny about the matter. He shared with me the details as he understood them. Whether or not I was aware of what generated the letter at that time, I do not remember. Based upon my understanding that Dryden had had a long standing feud with Tommy over factors unrelated to the above accusations, it did not seem indicated to approach the boys in question directly, having been informed that no case had ever been filed with the courts or legal disposition made. We then discussed the situation with the full board. Given the alleged events had occured many years before, attempts had been made to make things right, and no legal action had been taken, we did not see any reason to pursue the issue further nor to follow through with his recommendations. In my reply to pastor Dryden I merely thanked him for fulfilling his obligation to us. (I will make this one further comment. Whereas there are many accusations on the Internet alledging that Danny cannot be trusted, I disagree. I have known Danny now since the beginning of the ministry. Now more than 23 years. I have been fully appraised of many of the difficulties that he has faced during that time. While Danny sees things from his perspective, as we all do, he is honest and trustworthy. I have found no reason to distrust his reports to me. Yes, there are occasions when after having spoken with both sides of an issue it has been a matter of he said vs she said, but in all situations where I could know the facts, Danny has proven true.)
Subsequently, after this issue has been brought back to the forefront (I think there is only one person who could have known about this and brought it to world wide attentionm, and that person was then on the board and voted with the concensus) I contacted the only person from the Chruch of God that I could find that knew about the situation, and who had been present and witness to the events. (Accept for pastor Dryden's personal accounts, there are apparently no other records of the allegations) The picture that was painted by that leader of the Church was exactly as portrayed earlier by Danny. Dryden was jealous of Tommy and was out to get him - a jealousy that has continued to the present. I was again informed that the DA knew about the allegations and not finding a basis, refused to act against Tommy. I have been informed that the Church of God is a congregational type or organization with different jurisdictions in different states and that there was no higher authority that I could speak with to resolve the issue further. It was not entirely clear to me how that worked. I was also told that one leader pestered Tommy over and over again until Tommy voluntarily gave up his ministerial license. These are the facts as I have been able to sort them out.
I will not comment regarding ****** except to say that good people sometimes see things from differing perspectives. We ******. We continue to have communication with ****** and consider ****** a friend of 3ABN.
Since you have not described the other allegations against Danny, I am unable to know what you are referring and therefore unable to comment on them.
I hope this is helpful to you.
I would like to request that you not circulate this letter, but that you merely summarize and varify its contents.
Sincerely,
Walt
And even Duane Clem backed him up:
I will say that I agree with what the unnamed individual from the Church of God reportedly told Dr. Thompson, but it was NOT me, and I can honestly say I have no idea who it was. That's one issue you can finally put to rest.
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OK. I had a hard time following this post, but are you saying that you plan to write to the Church of God in Dunn Loring, Virginia??
For crying out loud - leave those poor people alone!! They have suffered enough over this mess!!!
Gailon/Bob - would such an action qualify as witness tampering??
Ian:
In light of Joy's new claims here, I'm writing to the church of God in Dunn Loring, Virginia again, and will get back to this forum when and if I hear anything.
-
Ian:
YES, he most certainly did.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Possible way to win 3ABN critics.
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:04:53 -0600
From: Walt Thompson
Dear Bob,
Thank you for you attempt to understand my sensitivity and that of 3abn administratin and board. We believe we have acted responsibly and wisely, appropriate to the circumstances. While one can always be criticized after the fact and without all of the evidence then available for consideration, often those same critics would have made similar judgments had they been there.
As I recall the events of 2003, I received a call from Brad Thorp from the General Conference telling me of Pastor Dryden's accusations. Brad appropriately told me that it was not his concern, and that it was ours to handle. As I recall, I contacted pastor Dryden and heard his side of the story following which I received the letter that is circulating. I was at 3abn at the time and spoke at length with Danny about the matter. He shared with me the details as he understood them. Whether or not I was aware of what generated the letter at that time, I do not remember. Based upon my understanding that Dryden had had a long standing feud with Tommy over factors unrelated to the above accusations, it did not seem indicated to approach the boys in question directly, having been informed that no case had ever been filed with the courts or legal disposition made. We then discussed the situation with the full board. Given the alleged events had occured many years before, attempts had been made to make things right, and no legal action had been taken, we did not see any reason to pursue the issue further nor to follow through with his recommendations. In my reply to pastor Dryden I merely thanked him for fulfilling his obligation to us. (I will make this one further comment. Whereas there are many accusations on the Internet alledging that Danny cannot be trusted, I disagree. I have known Danny now since the beginning of the ministry. Now more than 23 years. I have been fully appraised of many of the difficulties that he has faced during that time. While Danny sees things from his perspective, as we all do, he is honest and trustworthy. I have found no reason to distrust his reports to me. Yes, there are occasions when after having spoken with both sides of an issue it has been a matter of he said vs she said, but in all situations where I could know the facts, Danny has proven true.)
Subsequently, after this issue has been brought back to the forefront (I think there is only one person who could have known about this and brought it to world wide attentionm, and that person was then on the board and voted with the concensus) I contacted the only person from the Chruch of God that I could find that knew about the situation, and who had been present and witness to the events. (Accept for pastor Dryden's personal accounts, there are apparently no other records of the allegations) The picture that was painted by that leader of the Church was exactly as portrayed earlier by Danny. Dryden was jealous of Tommy and was out to get him - a jealousy that has continued to the present. I was again informed that the DA knew about the allegations and not finding a basis, refused to act against Tommy. I have been informed that the Church of God is a congregational type or organization with different jurisdictions in different states and that there was no higher authority that I could speak with to resolve the issue further. It was not entirely clear to me how that worked. I was also told that one leader pestered Tommy over and over again until Tommy voluntarily gave up his ministerial license. These are the facts as I have been able to sort them out.
I will not comment regarding ****** except to say that good people sometimes see things from differing perspectives. We ******. We continue to have communication with ****** and consider ****** a friend of 3ABN.
Since you have not described the other allegations against Danny, I am unable to know what you are referring and therefore unable to comment on them.
I hope this is helpful to you.
I would like to request that you not circulate this letter, but that you merely summarize and varify its contents.
Sincerely,
Walt
And even Duane Clem backed him up:
I will say that I agree with what the unnamed individual from the Church of God reportedly told Dr. Thompson, but it was NOT me, and I can honestly say I have no idea who it was. That's one issue you can finally put to rest.
Cindy, just stop. I only agreed that there was jealousy, and nothing else. You know full well what I meant. Stop trying to twist what I said.
Dr. Thompson did NOT investigate the claims, he only hunted around until he got someone to say what he wanted them to say. That's not an investigation, that's attempted vindication. Dr. Thompson has never spoken to myself or any of the other victims that I know. Kinda hard to investigate without interviewing witnesses, don'tcha think? :dunno:
Why do you get so bent out of shape about this issue? I can't figure it out. You say you don't even know Tommy and have never spoken to him. How can you be so sure that all this never happened?
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The "other" spin master speaks again. Please provide some sort of explanation of how you could tie the fact that a lot of people would sue you, as 3abn did, with your statement that 3abn wasn't hurt? Let me explain. These are 2 different subject matters and have no correlation whatsoever. So, spin away, but it's not workin.
Oh speaking of working, how exactly are you living these days? According to your public bankruptcy, you have no money and you haven't had a "real" job in quite sometime so how are you feeding your family and keeping a roof over your head? This may or may not apply here but the Word says a man who won't work and take care of his family is worse than an infadel. I bet that applies even when a person claims they are so busy fighting for the "cause of God" they don't have time to work. Normally your financial state would be nobody's business but since you are trying to make a name for yourself by nosing into everyone else's business I think it only fair you account for your mode of living since you are supposed to be the priest of your household.
Spin MAster or fact analyst? You have to spin when the weight of the evidence is against you. You simply have to analyse when the weight is in your favor...
Now, talking of SPIN, is this INFIDEL (yup, you mis-spelled - infadel [careful, the syntax and spelling errors can give you away]) argument the best you can throw around? Apparently you did not carefully read the Bankruptcy Documentation, and I refer you back to the schedule of income and expenses...a bit tight in this market compared to the income we have been use to, but we have tightened the belt, like most American Families...and for those who live off OTHER PEOPLES MONEY...like donors, I wouldn't be throwing stones...particularly with the bankruptcy history of your fearless leader.
I was always taught that you NEVER THROW STONES WHEN YOU LIVE IN A GLASS HOUSE. You always make it dynamite so they cannot throw it back.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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[Incidents at 3ABN with male employees would be SEXUAL HARRASSMENT not pedophilia, and if the President was made aware and failed to take corrective actions, then the corporation has clear accountability ]
You mean "one former male employee" claimed that?
Answer: I did not say ONE...rather there are multiple male on male incidents alleged
One male employee who's wife said that was false, one who's children aren't allowed to be alone with him, and are not even supported by him? ( But don't accept hearsay, whether from me or your "source"! Go to the court and get the records for yourself Gailon! prove all things!) and one who was himself fired from 3ABN? You really ought to examine the source of this claim and his reliability and whether he is quilty of the things another has been accused of b4 you take up his cause and trumpet his accusations to the world as fact. And you really ought to know if it was reported, and what he did and said when confronted with his story. before you put your reputation, and credibility on the line with this. Because I'm quite sure if you and Pickle get your way and all this is brought up in court, all of what I referred to is going to be documented to rebut your claims...AND THEY BETTER PRODUCE THE EVIDENCE BEFORE TRIAL OR THEY WILL FIND THEMSELVES WITH A MOTION IN LIMINE, SO WHEN CAN WE EXPECT ALL THIS EVIDENCE?
Answer: You have the audacity to accuse others of viciousness: Now again for the facts-
1) The employee's wife is not a RELIABLE SOURCE and in fact was the REASON for the Divorce, not to mention that I doubt the ex-spouse was a party to the incident- and why do you suppose that an employee was assigned the job of sitting by the fax machine for several weeks to intercept what was an anticipated lawsuite by the man and his wife in 1991 and what about that multi-page letter THE WIFE wrote to BJ CHRISTIANSEN in 1991...careful IAN, again you are in a sink-hole?;
2) And why was he FIRED from 3ABN? Because he was perceived as supporting Linda's innocense?
3) You have just defamed the the man the more as you have MIS-READ the stipulated Decree - as he did not require overnight visits, but why would he as he was a resident of West Frankfort at the time and has in fact frequently flown home to take care of the children, overnight, to accomodate her travel plans;
4) And getting fired by a miscreant vengeful administrator sounds like a good reason to suspend child support payments, but did not even request modification and has NOW CAUGHT UP, hardly the tall tale you have been told by the ANNOINTED ONE, who repeatedly spins tales like a demon!!!
Now lets discuss the damages this man has suffered? Think he also has a claim, or two. or three?
I do and the man really ought to sue the pants off 3ABN, it's officers and directors to recover his damages, which, by the way, would by far exceed any arrearages.
And there's a big problem here Gailon. For your Partner, Pickle and so many others have been consistantly claiming children were molested, and that there are allegations of child abuse, ie; pedophilia and that DS and 3ABN covered up allegations of child molestation, and clearly 3ABN should have instituted precautions to protect children and since they didn't they endangered children. etc etc etc...
And "child molestation" and Pedophilia, is what your website, and Adventist Today, and the forums via your partner Pickle has reported to the world. And so many posters and readers have believed it and repeated it, especially those who jumped on the bandwagon because they have a history of being abused or molested, and are concerned about those issues. So they in turn have attacked and maligned all who tried to speak up and say this wasn't true, and accused us of protecting a child molestor and not caring about the children who were molested, when there is in fact no children who were molested, and no child molestor.
Answer: THERE IS NO PROBLEM AND WE STAND BEHIND THE REPORTS...THE WEIGHT OF THE EVIDENCE IS AT LEAST AS COMPELLING AS ANY EVIDENCE AGAINST ANY PRIEST IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND SHOULD BE SIMILARLY ADJUDICATED. IN FACT, 3ABN SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AS THEY, THE 3 ANGELS MESSAGE, THE FACE OF ADVENTISM AND THE ENTITY THAT PRIDES ITSELF ON EXPOSING THE PAPACY, ACTS LIKE THE OLD PAPAL STATE
2 b continued...
[/quote]
Gailon Arthur Joy
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This is a typical 3ABN INVESTIGATION...Lord forbid they find probable cause to eliminate the Annointed One or his defrocked brother...and is this how they investigated Linda? They Listened to Danny's side?
"...I was at 3abn at the time and spoke at length with Danny about the matter. He shared with me the details as he understood them. Whether or not I was aware of what generated the letter at that time, I do not remember. Based upon my understanding that Dryden had had a long standing feud with Tommy over factors unrelated to the above accusations, it did not seem indicated to approach the boys in question directly, having been informed that no case had ever been filed with the courts or legal disposition made. We then discussed the situation with the full board. Given the alleged events had occured many years before, attempts had been made to make things right, and no legal action had been taken, we did not see any reason to pursue the issue further nor to follow through with his recommendations...." Dr Walter Thompson, Chairman and Inquisitor of 3ABN
And now we know THE REST OF THE STORY!!! They should be ashamed...and they owe the world an apology.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Cindy, just stop. I only agreed that there was jealousy, and nothing else. You know full well what I meant. Stop trying to twist what I said.
Dr. Thompson did NOT investigate the claims, he only hunted around until he got someone to say what he wanted them to say. That's not an investigation, that's attempted vindication. Dr. Thompson has never spoken to myself or any of the other victims that I know. Kinda hard to investigate without interviewing witnesses, don'tcha think? :dunno:
Why do you get so bent out of shape about this issue? I can't figure it out. You say you don't even know Tommy and have never spoken to him. How can you be so sure that all this never happened?
Duane,
I didn't twist your words. I only quoted what you said about Dryden. and quoted you as agreeing with what the Church of God official told Dr Thompson. That's it.
Why would you expect Dr Thompson to interview you?!?
1. You filed no complaint and reported nothing while at 3ABN..
2. You did not ever claim to be a witness of anything Dr Thompson was investigating
"in 1985, I was one of several who wrote a letter in his defense. I was also questioned by a detective at the West Frankfort Police Department. I had been on a few overnight trips with him, and gave testimony that nothing had happened that would substantiate the allegations being made against him. At the time, this was true."
3. Dr Thompson's investigation was well before Tommy retired, and that was in December 2006. You didn't even say anything to anyone about your inapropriate relationship with Tommy till Jan 20, 2007.
I am addressing both 3ABN's involvement and what they had to look at, and the accusations of Child molestation, You were 20. So, I'm sorry but neither applies to you. Your issue is different.
Have you talk to Danny yet? I think that is a very good idea...
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=21098&view=findpost&p=241392
Duane your accusations just never quit. Face it, you don't know what you're talking about concerning anything with 3abn.
FYI I have communicated with the law firm. When I said Danny didn't know the subpeona's were being served or who they were served to, I was 100% correct. Ian gave a simple and direct explanation of how a suit progresses without being told by the client what moves to make. Maybe you should read what she wrote.
Duane have you ever read the biblical scriptures "if you have ought with your brother GO TO HIM?" That is certainly possible since you live in the area. Why don't you try that? Danny is working at his house most of the time and I'm sure you know where that is. It would be informal and private and you could just "let er rip" and get it all off your chest. I believe you would find that you are mistaken in your accusations and in what you perceive Danny's attitude to be. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Isn't it biblical? You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. By living there, you have an opportunity that many of the posters do not have. Why don't you take advantage of it?
There are only 2 reasons that I can think of for not doing it. You don't have enough guts or you don't want to find out your perception is wrong.
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Ian, I SURE hope you can back up this highly inflammatory statement. I am SO hoping this male employee strongly considers suing YOU for defamation!!
You mean "one former male employee" claimed that?
One male employee who's wife said that was false, one who's children aren't allowed to be alone with him, and are not even supported by him? ( But don't accept hearsay, whether from me or your "source"! Go to the court and get the records for yourself Gailon! prove all things!) and one who was himself fired from 3ABN? You really ought to examine the source of this claim and his reliability and whether he is quilty of the things another has been accused of b4 you take up his cause and trumpet his accusations to the world as fact. And you really ought to know if it was reported, and what he did and said when confronted with his story. before you put your reputation, and credibility on the line with this. Because I'm quite sure if you and Pickle get your way and all this is brought up in court, all of what I referred to is going to be documented to rebut your claims...
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Yes, folk, Ian is defending an alleged pedophile and attacking his alleged victims.
Ian, you got some of your dates wrong.
Why should Walt Thompson have talked with Duane after he came forward in early January 2007? Because if Walt cares about souls, cares about people, cares about truth and righteousness, cares about the Lord's work, he would have done that at some point within the last 16 months. But to my knowledge he hasn't talked to any of them. And that is absolutely reprehensible in my opinion.
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This is a typical 3ABN INVESTIGATION...Lord forbid they find probable cause to eliminate the Annointed One or his defrocked brother...and is this how they investigated Linda? They Listened to Danny's side?
"...I was at 3abn at the time and spoke at length with Danny about the matter. He shared with me the details as he understood them. Whether or not I was aware of what generated the letter at that time, I do not remember. Based upon my understanding that Dryden had had a long standing feud with Tommy over factors unrelated to the above accusations, it did not seem indicated to approach the boys in question directly, having been informed that no case had ever been filed with the courts or legal disposition made. We then discussed the situation with the full board. Given the alleged events had occured many years before, attempts had been made to make things right, and no legal action had been taken, we did not see any reason to pursue the issue further nor to follow through with his recommendations...." Dr Walter Thompson, Chairman and Inquisitor of 3ABN
And now we know THE REST OF THE STORY!!! They should be ashamed...and they owe the world an apology.
Gailon Arthur Joy
Dude, in 1985 Tommy's Church and the school investigated and suspended his liscence until the police investigation and theirs was done.
The police investigation resulted in nothing of merit to proceed with. The D.A. know and found nothing of merit. He continued at the school and as Pastor.
Sorry You don't like that, there was nothing else for Dr Thompson to find or investigate in 2003.
And you didn't post the rest of the story:
Subsequently, after this issue has been brought back to the forefront (I think there is only one person who could have known about this and brought it to world wide attentionm, and that person was then on the board and voted with the concensus) I contacted the only person from the Chruch of God that I could find that knew about the situation, and who had been present and witness to the events. (Accept for pastor Dryden's personal accounts, there are apparently no other records of the allegations) The picture that was painted by that leader of the Church was exactly as portrayed earlier by Danny. Dryden was jealous of Tommy and was out to get him - a jealousy that has continued to the present. I was again informed that the DA knew about the allegations and not finding a basis, refused to act against Tommy.
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Ian, prove that the DA said what is claimed was said. Prove it. Don't be gullible.
When you say that there was nothing more for Walt to investigate, I think you're lying. Roger Clem didn't come forward until 2003, and thus his case wasn't investigated in 1985.
Furthermore, you asked if Duane has visited Danny. Have you asked Danny if he's visited Duane? If not, why not?
Jesus said that if your brother has ought against you, you have to leave your gift at the altar and go and be reconciled to your brother. Danny has a God-given duty to seek reconciliation of Duane and anyone else who thinks he's wronged them. Otherwise, if he hardens his heart and refuses to obey the Lord's instruction on this point, he is at risk of going nowhere.
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"...Duane have you ever read the biblical scriptures "if you have ought with your brother GO TO HIM?" That is certainly possible since you live in the area. Why don't you try that? Danny is working at his house most of the time and I'm sure you know where that is. It would be informal and private and you could just "let er rip" and get it all off your chest. I believe you would find that you are mistaken in your accusations and in what you perceive Danny's attitude to be. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Isn't it biblical? You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. By living there, you have an opportunity that many of the posters do not have. Why don't you take advantage of it?..."
Think Danny would waive attorney client privilege and grant me the same opportuinity? Apparently not as he wouldn't even communicate by e-mail. But would be happy to meet him AND THE ENTIRE BOARD packed with information and documents...what an awakening that would be!!!
Now that I have a moment to think abaout it, did Danny ever read that text? And why didn't he come and see little ole' me??? He even had a jet to make it easy...oh, that's right, I'm a no-body!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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And how dare you quote Walt Thompson's blatant falsehood that he couldn't find anyone else from the Church of God that knew anything about it. Was the problem that he never tried looking? Did he forget to plug in his phone? Or pick it up? Roger Clem had just come forward for the first time and Walt can't find anyone to talk to? Ludicrous!
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Ian, you must really think I'm stupid if you think I would even remotely consider visiting Danny one-on-one. I know a set-up when I see it. Regardless of how the meeting went, I would be accused of no telling what. It would be Danny's word against mine. Sorry, but nice try.
If Danny is so willing to talk, I wonder why he completely avoided me and wouldn't even make eye contact when we were in a local restaurant at the same time recently. Hmmmmm.....
As to the statement that the church and school investigated the allegations against Tommy in 1985, there was NO investigation by the church or school. Tommy denied it and everyone believed him. That's it. I just love how all these johnny-come-latelys breeze in and think they have all the details.
======
Edited to change name from realname to username.
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Dude, in 1985 Tommy's Church and the school investigated and suspended his liscence until the police investigation and theirs was done.
The police investigation resulted in nothing of merit to proceed with. The D.A. know and found nothing of merit. He continued at the school and as Pastor.
Sorry You don't like that, there was nothing else for Dr Thompson to find or investigate in 2003.
And you didn't post the rest of the story:
Subsequently, after this issue has been brought back to the forefront (I think there is only one person who could have known about this and brought it to world wide attentionm, and that person was then on the board and voted with the concensus) I contacted the only person from the Chruch of God that I could find that knew about the situation, and who had been present and witness to the events. (Accept for pastor Dryden's personal accounts, there are apparently no other records of the allegations) The picture that was painted by that leader of the Church was exactly as portrayed earlier by Danny. Dryden was jealous of Tommy and was out to get him - a jealousy that has continued to the present. I was again informed that the DA knew about the allegations and not finding a basis, refused to act against Tommy.
[/quote]- IAN
Dude your mis-informed...the timeline is a real problem for you...try it again. By the time Dryden wrote the letter in 2003 Tommy had been to Virginia and had additional allegations resulting in his institutionalization and resignation from Dunn Loring. Tommy was working in the archives at 3ABN, but living in Marion, Kentucky. And so why would Dryden be "jealous" of Tommy Ray Shelton??? He most certainly was not pastoring in West Frankfort at the Ezra Church of God. Is this another Danny fable? You really have to do a much better job of putting together your timelines and getting much better sources...but then you must be typical of 3ABN's invetsigators...you get Danny's version!!!
I suppose it is like that $10,000 check Danny and Tommy deny ever transpired...but wonder what those bank statements demonstrate? Particularly since we have two actual witnesses to the check and another person who was told about the check by the drafter.
By the way, Tommy Ray Shelton's CREDENTIALS were taken by the COG General Assembly based upon his own confession. See Save-3ABN.info for a copy of the letter. The church divided and seperated from the General Assembly and went it alone. The congregation that was left called Tommy back and then, guess what, there were new allegations after he was recalled!!! But 3ABN saved him yet again and gave him a job as programming director until the ex-wife and daughter of the annointed one gave BJ Christiansen her famous declaration. Tommy found himself on the road again selling cable systems on 3ABN programming (as an independent contractor) until he became a consultant to Dunn Lorring and slid right into another pastoral position, which is a story in and of itself.
So, dude, do you need help with your investigation? You are not even meeting "inquisitor" standards.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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By the way, Tommy Ray Shelton's CREDENTIALS were taken by the COG General Conference based upon his own confession, not suspended. See Save-3ABN.info for a copy of the letter.
http://www.save-3abn.info/tommy-shelton-ordination-suspended.htm
"The ordination of Tommy Shelton has been suspended immediately until further notice pending the results of the official police investigation concerning criminal sexual abuse charges against him."
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Dude your mis-informed...the timeline is a real problem for you...try it again. By the time Dryden wrote the letter in 2003 Tommy had been to Virginia and had additional allegations resulting in his institutionalization and resignation from Dunn Loring. Tommy was working in the archives at 3ABN, but living in Marion, Kentucky. And so why would Dryden be "jealous" of Tommy Ray Shelton??? He most certainly was not pastoring in West Frankfort at the Ezra Church of God. Is this another Danny fable? You really have to do a much better job of putting together your timelines and getting much better sources...
he became a consultant to Dunn Lorring and slid right into another pastoral position, which is a story in and of itself.
http://www.save-3abn.info/tommy-shelton-victim-duane-clem-apology.htm
"You are correct in thinking that Glenn Dryden had nothing to do with the 1985 allegations. That was a totally separate set of circumstances, and was also when the Ezra Church of God (which I attended at the time) severed ties with the Church of God, Anderson. We became an independent Church of God and shortly thereafter Tommy received ordination from another Church of God organization, and according to their website is still listed as a minister with them. (http://www.churchofgodcv.org/addresses.aspx/) Glenn Dryden never had the success at Ezra that Tommy saw as pastor, and I believe that is where the jealousy has come from. Tommy also began attending Ezra for a while when Dryden was pastor, and Dryden did not like it. He was very instrumental in Tommy taking the pastorate at Community Church of God in Dunn Loring, VA and even made the statement to me personally shortly after it was announced, "Well, it looks like the Sheltons will be out of here soon."
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Cindy, you must really think I'm stupid if you think I would even remotely consider visiting Danny one-on-one. I know a set-up when I see it. Regardless of how the meeting went, I would be accused of no telling what. It would be Danny's word against mine. Sorry, but nice try.
If Danny is so willing to talk, I wonder why he completely avoided me and wouldn't even make eye contact when we were in a local restaurant at the same time recently. Hmmmmm.....
As to the statement that the church and school investigated the allegations against Tommy in 1985, there was NO investigation by the church or school. Tommy denied it and everyone believed him. That's it. I just love how all these johnny-come-latelys breeze in and think they have all the details.
If Danny was so willing to talk? Who said? I didn't read that in the quote from bsda or in what Ian said. It was merely a suggestion to act biblically. Afterall, you are the one who has "ought" against your brother so it is your responsibility for you to go to him with your accusations and complaints about him.
So, you saw him in a restaurant huh? Very telling that you did not approach him. You are the one on the net spouting accusations about what Danny knew or didn't know and what he did or didn't do. Seems to me as a christian you owe him the chance to answer any and all questions or allegations that you have. I wonder how many years it has been since you have had any contact with Danny at anytime, anywhere much less told him what your problems are with him. Yet you rant and rave that he did this and that and you know all about his motives and how he lives and why or how he makes decisions, when in reality, you know absolutely nothing about him at all except what your buddies Joy and Pickle and the rest of the attack team have told you. The very fact that you had an opportunity to approach him one and one and didn't do it, tells me that you don't have a leg to stand on where Danny is concerned and you know it. Your the one that has "ought" remember? You remind me of one of those little yappy dogs that jumps all over your feet, yapping it's head off and wants you to be scared of it. But, all you have to do is look at it sideways and it runs away with it's tail between it's legs.
Having never approached him about the things you think he is responsible for sends all your internet yapping and surmising down the tubes.
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"...Duane have you ever read the biblical scriptures "if you have ought with your brother GO TO HIM?" That is certainly possible since you live in the area. Why don't you try that? Danny is working at his house most of the time and I'm sure you know where that is. It would be informal and private and you could just "let er rip" and get it all off your chest. I believe you would find that you are mistaken in your accusations and in what you perceive Danny's attitude to be. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Isn't it biblical? You have nothing to lose and a lot to gain. By living there, you have an opportunity that many of the posters do not have. Why don't you take advantage of it?..."
Think Danny would waive attorney client privilege and grant me the same opportuinity? Apparently not as he wouldn't even communicate by e-mail. But would be happy to meet him AND THE ENTIRE BOARD packed with information and documents...what an awakening that would be!!!
Now that I have a moment to think abaout it, did Danny ever read that text? And why didn't he come and see little ole' me??? He even had a jet to make it easy...oh, that's right, I'm a no-body!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
EXACTLY!
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EXACTLY!
No person is a nobody. Whatever you may think of him, Gailon is every bit as much a somebody as is Danny. Everyone is a somebody, including the least, the lowest, the most despised, the people you hate, each person is as much a somebody as anyother person.
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EXACTLY!
No person is a nobody. Whatever you may think of him, Gailon is every bit as much a somebody as is Danny. Everyone is a somebody, including the least, the lowest, the most despised, the people you hate, each person is as much a somebody as anyother person.
Of course you took that 180 out... Each individual IS somebody, BUT
As far as walking in off the street and butting into a ministries business goes, and demanding an accounting, and to know what happened behind closed doors in private and to see their books, bank accounts etc etc etc goes, as Joy did...
Yes, he was stranger, a nobody, and it wasn't his business.
I know...
He's got alot of you believing you are "stockholders in the pews", and that makes it your business, and you have a right to demand changes and an accounting. But why don't you go and try the above with your favorite non profit charity, or another private or independant ministry you have sent donations to, and claim you are one of their "stockholders", and see how they respond and what they tell you...
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As far as walking in off the street and butting into a ministries business goes, and demanding an accounting, and to know what happened behind closed doors in private and to see their books, bank accounts etc etc etc goes, as Joy did...
Can you cite where Gailon made such demands to see bank statements and the books prior to the lawsuit being filed?
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If Danny was so willing to talk? Who said? I didn't read that in the quote from bsda or in what Ian said. It was merely a suggestion to act biblically. Afterall, you are the one who has "ought" against your brother so it is your responsibility for you to go to him with your accusations and complaints about him.
So, you saw him in a restaurant huh? Very telling that you did not approach him. You are the one on the net spouting accusations about what Danny knew or didn't know and what he did or didn't do. Seems to me as a christian you owe him the chance to answer any and all questions or allegations that you have. I wonder how many years it has been since you have had any contact with Danny at anytime, anywhere much less told him what your problems are with him. Yet you rant and rave that he did this and that and you know all about his motives and how he lives and why or how he makes decisions, when in reality, you know absolutely nothing about him at all except what your buddies Joy and Pickle and the rest of the attack team have told you. The very fact that you had an opportunity to approach him one and one and didn't do it, tells me that you don't have a leg to stand on where Danny is concerned and you know it. Your the one that has "ought" remember? You remind me of one of those little yappy dogs that jumps all over your feet, yapping it's head off and wants you to be scared of it. But, all you have to do is look at it sideways and it runs away with it's tail between it's legs.
Having never approached him about the things you think he is responsible for sends all your internet yapping and surmising down the tubes.
Well, well...another Danny defender cowering behind a screen name. Think you're making me mad? Lol, not a chance. Nice try, though.
I know how Danny operates. I'm not going to put myself in a position to be accused of something I didn't do. Do all the name calling and put downs that you want. It's not happening.
Why won't you post your name? Maybe it's you who is the yapping little dog after all. I'm not afraid to sign anything I post. You're still hiding.
Yap, yap, yap
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Well, well...another Danny defender cowering behind a screen name. Think you're making me mad? Lol, not a chance. Nice try, though.
I know how Danny operates. I'm not going to put myself in a position to be accused of something I didn't do. Do all the name calling and put downs that you want. It's not happening.
Why won't you post your name? Maybe it's you who is the yapping little dog after all. I'm not afraid to sign anything I post. You're still hiding.
Yap, yap, yap
Sometimes I think the belief that all that come here and defend DS is because they are a true DS defenders. Some probably are,but the recent influx has a certain familiarity about their phrasing and statements. Rather it seems they are defending a position they have taken and are annoyed that their decision was not taken as law. Not having any personal knowledge of events and actions by anyone
If the proof they require of others was available to them, they would sign their name. I can't think of anything more offensive than have someone appear to defend me personally, only doing so under anonymoity.
There has been reference to yappy dogs many times..... You remind me of one of those little yappy dogs that jumps all over your feet, yapping it's head off and wants you to be scared of it. But, all you have to do is look at it sideways and it runs away with it's tail between it's legs.
Only usually they are referred to as "pet yorkies". Before I got to excited about the phrase" true Danny clone"
Maybe take a look at what has happened elswhere and the timing of some that have come here, just for this.
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EXACTLY!
No person is a nobody. Whatever you may think of him, Gailon is every bit as much a somebody as is Danny. Everyone is a somebody, including the least, the lowest, the most despised, the people you hate, each person is as much a somebody as anyother person.
Of course you took that 180 out... Each individual IS somebody, BUT
As far as walking in off the street and butting into a ministries business goes, and demanding an accounting, and to know what happened behind closed doors in private and to see their books, bank accounts etc etc etc goes, as Joy did...
Yes, he was stranger, a nobody, and it wasn't his business.
I know...
He's got alot of you believing you are "stockholders in the pews", and that makes it your business, and you have a right to demand changes and an accounting. But why don't you go and try the above with your favorite non profit charity, or another private or independant ministry you have sent donations to, and claim you are one of their "stockholders", and see how they respond and what they tell you...
According to the Illinois Circuit Court, 3ABN is a Shelton Business...but, you know, Danny made them all "stockholders in the pews" the minute he asked them to support HIS ministry. When you live on OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY, there is accountability. Despite your spite, we have every right in the world to ask how the "stockholders money" was spent and how much was put into the pockets of family and friends while employees live on sub-par wages.
Given the alleged background of the Founder, I would have thought some would have asked a lot earlier...oh yeah, they did and guess what the responses were? But this will not be the first time this has happened in denominational history and for some of that interesting history and how it demonstrates history repeats itself, try reading "Who Watches? Who Cares?" and see the similarities. It is published by a group known as Members for Church Accountability so get use to a new era in denominational inquiry. If you are a "stockholder" you have the right to ask questions and if you are one who lives off the donations, you should be happy to answer!!!
And frankly, IAN, you are free to express your opinion, but you are not a party and therefore it does not even count, let alone make sense!! But with your background, YOU SHOULD CARE ABOUT ACCOUNTABILITY.
Gailon Arthur Joy
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If Danny was so willing to talk? Who said? I didn't read that in the quote from bsda or in what Ian said. It was merely a suggestion to act biblically. Afterall, you are the one who has "ought" against your brother so it is your responsibility for you to go to him with your accusations and complaints about him.
So, you saw him in a restaurant huh? Very telling that you did not approach him. You are the one on the net spouting accusations about what Danny knew or didn't know and what he did or didn't do. Seems to me as a christian you owe him the chance to answer any and all questions or allegations that you have. I wonder how many years it has been since you have had any contact with Danny at anytime, anywhere much less told him what your problems are with him. Yet you rant and rave that he did this and that and you know all about his motives and how he lives and why or how he makes decisions, when in reality, you know absolutely nothing about him at all except what your buddies Joy and Pickle and the rest of the attack team have told you. The very fact that you had an opportunity to approach him one and one and didn't do it, tells me that you don't have a leg to stand on where Danny is concerned and you know it. Your the one that has "ought" remember? You remind me of one of those little yappy dogs that jumps all over your feet, yapping it's head off and wants you to be scared of it. But, all you have to do is look at it sideways and it runs away with it's tail between it's legs.
Having never approached him about the things you think he is responsible for sends all your internet yapping and surmising down the tubes.
Well, well...another Danny defender cowering behind a screen name. Think you're making me mad? Lol, not a chance. Nice try, though.
I know how Danny operates. I'm not going to put myself in a position to be accused of something I didn't do. Do all the name calling and put downs that you want. It's not happening.
Why won't you post your name? Maybe it's you who is the yapping little dog after all. I'm not afraid to sign anything I post. You're still hiding.
Yap, yap, yap
Oh but see..you don't know how Danny operates because you don't know him period. Your short time with an infant 3abn 21 years ago makes you know exactly zilch about Danny, the board or anything else concerning 3abn.
Seems to me your the one hiding....from Danny. Why? Because you claim to know him and "how he operates" but in reality, he is a virtual stranger to you and you need to admit it.
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SAM, can you explain to us all how Danny operates so we can all be as aware as you are?
This should be a real education!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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Oh but see..you don't know how Danny operates because you don't know him period. Your short time with an infant 3abn 21 years ago makes you know exactly zilch about Danny, the board or anything else concerning 3abn.
Seems to me your the one hiding....from Danny. Why? Because you claim to know him and "how he operates" but in reality, he is a virtual stranger to you and you need to admit it.
Oh but see..I knew Danny LONG before 3ABN was ever in existence. You should know that.
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This reminds me of a Bible text that says:
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
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Oh but see..you don't know how Danny operates because you don't know him period. Your short time with an infant 3abn 21 years ago makes you know exactly zilch about Danny, the board or anything else concerning 3abn.
Seems to me your the one hiding....from Danny. Why? Because you claim to know him and "how he operates" but in reality, he is a virtual stranger to you and you need to admit it.
Are you speaking for Danny? It this how he wants to be known - as a virtual stranger? While people all over the world feel they know him because he appears on the screens in their homes. Is Danny not revealed through the 3ABN books? Through the tings he tries to hide?
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Oh but see..you don't know how Danny operates because you don't know him period. Your short time with an infant 3abn 21 years ago makes you know exactly zilch about Danny, the board or anything else concerning 3abn.
Seems to me your the one hiding....from Danny. Why? Because you claim to know him and "how he operates" but in reality, he is a virtual stranger to you and you need to admit it.
I don't think Duane's only experience with Danny and 3ABN is that short time working there. His posts lead me to believe that he has lived in the same small community with the Sheltons and interacted with them and people from 3ABN for most of his life. It that accurate Duane?
Duane, are you hiding? You have said where you pastor and since its a small community I guess that Danny wouldn't have a hard time finding you would he? Sam, what makes you think that Duane is hiding?
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I don't think Duane's only experience with Danny and 3ABN is that short time working there. His posts lead me to believe that he has lived in the same small community with the Sheltons and interacted with them and people from 3ABN for most of his life. It that accurate Duane?
Why, yes! Yes it is.
Duane, are you hiding?
Why, no! No I'm not.
You have said where you pastor and since its a small community I guess that Danny wouldn't have a hard time finding you would he? Sam, what makes you think that Duane is hiding?
Actually, I'm a youth pastor, but I'm sure Danny wouldn't have any trouble finding me if he wanted to.
BTW, speaking of that, any new news on the subpoena, or was it just a scare tactic as I said it probably was?
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Oh but see..you don't know how Danny operates because you don't know him period. Your short time with an infant 3abn 21 years ago makes you know exactly zilch about Danny, the board or anything else concerning 3abn.
Seems to me your the one hiding....from Danny. Why? Because you claim to know him and "how he operates" but in reality, he is a virtual stranger to you and you need to admit it.
Are you speaking for Danny? It this how he wants to be known - as a virtual stranger? While people all over the world feel they know him because he appears on the screens in their homes. Is Danny not revealed through the 3ABN books? Through the tings he tries to hide?
Good point, Johann! Haven't we been told how Danny is constantly "recognized" in airports, hotels, and such? How, then, could he be a "stranger" to anyone?
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This reminds me of a Bible text that says:
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Very good quote!
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I have not seen the subpoena news from BSDA here. This is the link:
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=1099
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Go Mr Willis Esquire!
I have not seen the subpoena news from BSDA here. This is the link:
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=1099
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Go Mr Willis Esquire!
How are you treating this lawyer? Doesn't he have some sense?
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That is an Americanism. It means that I am cheering him on. Yes, he does seem to have some sense.
Go Mr Willis Esquire!
How are you treating this lawyer? Doesn't he have some sense?
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Yes, I looked at the lawyer's response to the subpoena; it seemed like he covered all the bases in refusing to respond to it.
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That is an Americanism. It means that I am cheering him on. Yes, he does seem to have some sense.
Go Mr Willis Esquire!
How are you treating this lawyer? Doesn't he have some sense?
I understood. Just wanted to get your feeling about what he did.