Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: bonnie on April 24, 2008, 12:14:11 PM
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Anyone care to give their thoughts on how true faith is put into practise?
My mother used to have the most irritating habit when my brother's or I would be concerned about what happened to someone, someone was lonely or scared.
SO, what are you going to do about it??
Sometimes you can't fix and maybe shouldn't even try, but that was no excuse to not be there.
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I believe Christ has the best answer on how true faith is put into practice.
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I believe Christ has the best answer on how true faith is put into practice.
What exactly does that mean for those sitting in the pews? There was a woman that sat in the back pew of a church, holding her young daughter and quietly crying, week after week. Listening to sermons of what would Jesus do, announcements of getting in the community and sharing your faith. She could recite by rout I am sure,the answers of Christ on how true faith is put into practise. As she remained uncounted and not worthy of hands on as to "What Jesus would do" is that answer enough.
Bonnie
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Matthew 25:31-46 is what I was thinking about when I looked at the question topic title on how do you put faith into practice.
Two groups of people are in those texts that are referenced as the sheep and the goats.
Matthew 25:34-40 is in reference to the sheep.
Matthew 25:41-46 is in reference to the goats.
Both called Jesus Lord (Matthew 25:37 and 44), but only one of the two groups were His true followers.
One group put faith into practice, whereas the other group didn't.
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Matthew 25:31-46 is what I was thinking about when I looked at the question topic title on how do you put faith into practice.
Two groups of people are in those texts that are referenced as the sheep and the goats.
Matthew 25:34-40 is in reference to the sheep.
Matthew 25:41-46 is in reference to the goats.
Both called Jesus Lord (Matthew 25:37 and 44), but only one of the two groups were His true followers.
One group put faith into practice, whereas the other group didn't.
This true life example took place in a very large SDA congregation. Membership of 500. Not one gesture was made.
Were there 500 goats in this congregation? Where was the one sheep that understood his words?
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Yes, that doesn't look very good for them.
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Yes, that doesn't look very good for them.
But most knew and could recite ...Both called Jesus Lord (Matthew 25:37 and 44)
When do we stop knowing and begin doing?
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This doesn't seem to be a problem with any specific local church, but seems to be widespread, therefore, a wake-up call is needed.
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This doesn't seem to be a problem with any specific local church, but seems to be widespread, therefore, a wake-up call is needed.
No, it is not the problem of a specific local church. It is widespread.
Wake up calls are usually dismissed rather quickly. Met with the willful arrogance of knowing the words. Arrogance leads to willful ignorance . Ignorance colors one's perception
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Whoa! This type of thing can actually be talked about, discussed in an adult manner and no one comes in and makes it a personal thing? I am very pleased with this site.
I follow, don't try to post as I have gotten a bit headshy when it comes to that these days. Will continue my lurking on a christian site. I am beginning to think I have come to the right forum for me. To help in my search for the Lord of all Lords. :TY:
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When do we stop knowing and begin doing?
And there's the rub. We probably have all the knowingthat we need as xtians. It is in the practise that we fail. Our unwillingness to do what we know we ought, for whatever justifications that we can reasonably cook up.
We know with righteous certainty what the other person should have done but if we had to face the same situation given the same set of circumstances would we have done differently?
I think that when we begin to observe the little things that we might ignore as unimportant even though a tiny voice in our heads tell us 'that ain't right' or 'you should do this' and the Spirit begins to increase our power to do the right thing every time (yea,I know that's a tall order) we will begin to experience the change that Bonnie's original question expect to see in us.
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This true life example took place in a very large SDA congregation. Membership of 500. Not one gesture was made.
Were there 500 goats in this congregation? Where was the one sheep that understood his words?
Maybe, the problem lies in the numbers of people, where 'new people' just get lost? My family has felt very much like this in the large SDA Churches - felt that we could never break into the 'cliques', yet in smaller churches, we have always found warmth and friendsip.
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Could this be why Ellen White advocated the splitting up of one local church after a certain number of members into two local churches?
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Maybe, the problem lies in the numbers of people, where 'new people' just get lost? My family has felt very much like this in the large SDA Churches - felt that we could never break into the 'cliques', yet in smaller churches, we have always found warmth and friendsip.
I have felt this way in so many churches I have attended. Except for one. It was Rockwood church in Oregon where I lived at the time. I do not remember why we stopped going to church as I was a young child. However, I will always remember the pastor who made everyone and I do mean everyone feel as though they were the only one there. At least that is how I felt and it is hard for me to fit into the 'cliques' in any atmosphere. I was blessed by this pastor and he was actually the one who baptized me when I was a young child. I just wish I had stayed in the faith and also that I had followed his footsteps in how he was as a person in general. I have now grown up, still remember him. Finally got into touch with him before I left the other forum thanks to a person from that forum. I did find some friends but very few. I thought it was more but as of late, I have found out different. Hope this will be a friendship forum for me.
Sorry, now I'm off my soapbox.
(hint maybe we could get a soapbox for peeps like me?) :praying:
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When do we stop knowing and begin doing?
And there's the rub. We probably have all the knowingthat we need as xtians. It is in the practise that we fail. Our unwillingness to do what we know we ought, for whatever justifications that we can reasonably cook up.
We know with righteous certainty what the other person should have done but if we had to face the same situation given the same set of circumstances would we have done differently?
I think that when we begin to observe the little things that we might ignore as unimportant even though a tiny voice in our heads tell us 'that ain't right' or 'you should do this' and the Spirit begins to increase our power to do the right thing every time (yea,I know that's a tall order) we will begin to experience the change that Bonnie's original question expect to see in us.
We know with righteous certainty what the other person should have done but if we had to face the same situation given the same set of circumstances would we have done differently?
Not part of the problem in this case
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Maybe, the problem lies in the numbers of people, where 'new people' just get lost? My family has felt very much like this in the large SDA Churches - felt that we could never break into the 'cliques', yet in smaller churches, we have always found warmth and friendsip.
I have felt this way in so many churches I have attended. Except for one. It was Rockwood church in Oregon where I lived at the time. I do not remember why we stopped going to church as I was a young child. However, I will always remember the pastor who made everyone and I do mean everyone feel as though they were the only one there. At least that is how I felt and it is hard for me to fit into the 'cliques' in any atmosphere. I was blessed by this pastor and he was actually the one who baptized me when I was a young child. I just wish I had stayed in the faith and also that I had followed his footsteps in how he was as a person in general. I have now grown up, still remember him. Finally got into touch with him before I left the other forum thanks to a person from that forum. I did find some friends but very few. I thought it was more but as of late, I have found out different. Hope this will be a friendship forum for me.
Sorry, now I'm off my soapbox.
(hint maybe we could get a soapbox for peeps like me?) :praying:
:ROFL: And... a soapbox for me too please?
Lil, what lovely memories of the Pastor who baptised you. Our family has similar memories. We were baptised in a country town, with a Church membership of about 60. EVERY PERSON was important there and everyone worked as a team. Years down the track, when many had moved away, people still kept in touch. If one had a problem (ie severe illness), the 'grapevine' soon came to life, and all knew about it and were praying about it. We haven't found quite that atmosphere anywhere since we left, but I had occasion to phone on of the leaders there this past week (who was a child whom we used to 'baby' sit about 35 years ago), and ask them to check on a certain person (not SDA), who needed support out there. The response was immediate and as sincere as it was all those years ago when we lived there.
I hope that you find the love and friendship here that you are seeking too Lil. You have my email address, I think? And 'Ginger' sends best wishes and requests for cuddles and pampering too! :purr:
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This true life example took place in a very large SDA congregation. Membership of 500. Not one gesture was made.
Were there 500 goats in this congregation? Where was the one sheep that understood his words?
Maybe, the problem lies in the numbers of people, where 'new people' just get lost? My family has felt very much like this in the large SDA Churches - felt that we could never break into the 'cliques', yet in smaller churches, we have always found warmth and friendsip.
Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been
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I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity? I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor. ACCKK - don't hit me! (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/bricks.gif) j/k
hmm. Faith without works is dead.
Here's a soapbox for Lil Star and Ozzie (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/soapbox.gif) and perhaps this as well (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/smileywithhotflashes.gif)
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Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been
Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.
Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.
I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it.
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I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity? I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor. ACCKK - don't hit me! (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/bricks.gif) j/k
hmm. Faith without works is dead.
Here's a soapbox for Lil Star and Ozzie (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/soapbox.gif) and perhaps this as well (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/smileywithhotflashes.gif)
Love these smilies. Still trying to work out how to put them into posts though! I'm rather dumb when it comes to things like this! :dunno:
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I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity? I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor. ACCKK - don't hit me! (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/bricks.gif) j/k
hmm. Faith without works is dead.
I believe that he is and that this holds true for any that step into or willingly place themselves in a leadership role of any kind
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Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been
Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.
Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.
I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it.
As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance? The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?
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Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been
Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.
Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.
I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it.
As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance? The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?
They've got to keep things 'looking good for the Church' Bonnie. Just sacrifice this one 'poor woman', so her husband and the church members keep looking like the 'good Christian image'. Incredible what some people will do to cover up abuse. :( :'(
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Problem still quite different than that. New members were welcomed and assisted. Husband of the distressed woman was a leader of the church. Cliques were not the problem. While these things can all be problems, there is a deeper problem.
Wonder if someone an hit on what it may have been
Sounds much like the wife of another 'control freak', who says all the right things to his congregation and didn't have a kind word or any time for his poor wife.
Could be like another young married woman who had three kids in 3 1/2 years and suffered from depression. Her self-righteous husband (Head Church Elder) kept telling her that depression is a sin and "if she was right with God, she wouldn't be feeling depressed". Had nothing to do with the fact that she was left to struggle with the kids all by herself, even at a social event, while he went off being Mr Good Guy, sermonising to any who would listen, or did it? I believe that was the case and I didn't listen to his preaching either.
I prefer to 'see' a sermon rather than 'hear' it.
As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance? The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?
Does not the Conference President or Ministerial Secretary get to hear about these kind of situations? Or, are people afraid to stand up and be counted.
The relevant Conference personell were contacted, when there has been similar circumstances in Churches where I have worshipped! It meant that I was 'censored' by the members in one Church, but we did have a lot of Conference support. I guess many people could not say that they had that level of support.
And... as I'm a 'slow learner', I've needed to speak with the Conference President regarding a similar situation in another Church I attended. There was a satisfactory resolution to that particular situation. :praying:
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As responsible as an abusive person is for his /her own actions,who is it that actually allows and thereby promotes abuse ? Abuse on a much larger scale. The one abusing spouse and family? The ones circling the "wagon"? The ones quietly keeping their distance? The ones that reconcile their presence with the notion of remaining for the good things that are being done?
Does not the Conference President or Ministerial Secretary get to hear about these kind of situations? Or, are people afraid to stand up and be counted.
The relevant Conference personell were contacted, when there has been similar circumstances in Churches where I have worshipped! It meant that I was 'censored' by the members in one Church, but we did have a lot of Conference support. I guess many people could not say that they had that level of support.
And... as I'm a 'slow learner', I've needed to speak with the Conference President regarding a similar situation in another Church I attended. There was a satisfactory resolution to that particular situation. :praying:
What happens if a conference president is part of the group circling the wagon, or slinking guietly away ,Or PREACHING the examples of Christ?
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Edited to correct quote formatting problem.
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One place I worked posted a statement in our coat room, bathrooms and such. Can't remember the exact words now,but it is something that every single person should ponder.
The management of any org./ business/club that operates with honesty, integrity, fairness and consideration,will have a staff or members that reflect same. A leadership of integrity can not long operate according to the standards they profess without those standards being reflected by those with less responsibility.
By the same standards a staff with integrity, fairness,honesty, and consideration can not co-exist efficiently with a leadership that provides less. In time, one will change and be guilty of that which they rail against.
Another place I worked sent in a behavior specialist to problem solve some things that seemed to be beyond management.
There was blatant workplace bullying. He had rather a simple concept and one that was very efficient in solving the problem. A general meeting and then one on one.
"It is not enough to claim you don't like something". A bully exists or unpleasent circumstances continue, because those that don't like it fail to say NO.
Each one involved was given a simple remedy. When the very first sign presents itself, Say No, I am not going allow you to do this. The leader of the bullying pack is only as strong as those surrounding him are willing to let him be.
Without them, the taunting,cruelty,abuse cease. It needs an audience and praise to let it thrive. Once the power to do so is lost ,so is the leader
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What exactly does that mean for those sitting in the pews? There was a woman that sat in the back pew of a church, holding her young daughter and quietly crying, week after week. Listening to sermons of what would Jesus do, announcements of getting in the community and sharing your faith. She could recite by rout I am sure,the answers of Christ on how true faith is put into practise. As she remained uncounted and not worthy of hands on as to "What Jesus would do" is that answer enough.
Bonnie
I think the people in the pews should invite the woman to sabbath lunch or out to lunch or visit her at her home. I see a lot of what ifs discussed and not enough action. I do not see the point of getting the conference involved in a situation of something the pastor failed to do or did not see what was going on.
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What exactly does that mean for those sitting in the pews? There was a woman that sat in the back pew of a church, holding her young daughter and quietly crying, week after week. Listening to sermons of what would Jesus do, announcements of getting in the community and sharing your faith. She could recite by rout I am sure,the answers of Christ on how true faith is put into practise. As she remained uncounted and not worthy of hands on as to "What Jesus would do" is that answer enough.
Bonnie
I think the people in the pews should invite the woman to sabbath lunch or out to lunch or visit her at her home. I see a lot of what ifs discussed and not enough action. I do not see the point of getting the conference involved in a situation of something the pastor failed to do or did not see what was going on.
I think you are somewhat missing the point. I did not mention that incident for specific solutions to this woman's problems and lack of support.
Rather a much larger issue. As Ginge has pointed out in her book, the pastor was the problem and all looked the other way. What could have and should have been done by those observing. A visit and taking out to lunch I am sure would be much appreciated, but then what??
The looking the other way,remaining silent does not and should not only include abuses or failures of this type.
Adding for clarification to those not having read.......
3 counselor-authors will be presenting a book at this conference on abuse in the SDA church (and all denominationl churches). There are books in the non-SDA christian community but very few in our own church. The article mentioned above hits Domestic Violence right between the eyes (no pun intended and I am not laughting) We are talking about a very silent/denial subject of Christian family abuse. This abuse goes on, from the pastor(oh, yes it does) in the pulpit, the leaders in the church on down to the pew sitters. All kinds of abuse, emotional, physical, verbal, spiritual and all come under "battering". The abuser and the one abused are all hurting and the church family should be protecting the victims and working on saving the abuser. What 'good' advice is frequently told the victims in the church?--"The Bible says not to divorce", "Don't spread the church's dirty laundry", "What did YOU do to make him hit you"? "You need to go back and be a good submissive wife". Then there is also the husband that is abused and has no where to turn.
Name of the book? "We Suffered in Silence" How a Pastor's family lived in Shame while hiding Dark Spots on the Clerical Collar.
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I missed the point we were talking about a situation in a book. Books are good at presenting one side ot the issue. Since I did not read the book or even heard of it I cannot comment on it.
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I missed the point we were talking about a situation in a book. Books are good at presenting one side ot the issue. Since I did not read the book or even heard of it I cannot comment on it.
Is there ever two sides to abuse? Abuse must include more than one person,but for the one committing the abuse is there ever another side that somehow can explain away or sanitize the abuser's actions.
What other side of abuse , that which is committed against the vulnerable has a good argument for the actions
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I am confused here. In a book the usual senario is to tell a story and later present the solution of what happened. Does this story have a conclusion in the book or not?
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I may be wrong, but isn't the pastor of a church supposed to set mood of the church as an entity? I realize he/she cannot shepherd all members (sheep being the dumb creatures that they are), but I think that's where the buck stops....squarely in front of the pastor. ACCKK - don't hit me! (http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g271/Makualla/bricks.gif) j/k
hmm. Faith without works is dead.
You could not be more wrong. The purpose of a pastor is evangelism. He is to be soul winning 24/7. He should be teaching laymen how to give bible studies by giving bible studies. He should be holding evangelism campaigns to bring in the studies into fellowship with the Body of Christ. He should be leading the congregation in evangelism, not being the Vicar of the Good Shepard. Christ is the Good Shepard and the head Elder of the Church should attend to the business of the church congregation with the Church Board. And even then, 80% of the time in every meeting should be dedicated to developing new soul winning programs.
The Ministerial Secretary should be guiding the Pastor, particularly new Pastors in their evangelism efforts. And the Conference President Should be working constantly to develop and implement conference wide evangelism efforts, including the use of Colporteurs and Bible workers to work with what should be over-worked Pastors as they prepare for one campaign after another.
That is the view from here!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
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I am confused here. In a book the usual senario is to tell a story and later present the solution of what happened. Does this story have a conclusion in the book or not?
No, there is no conclusion as far as I know. There is no solution UNLESS the actions and problems, the abuse that prompted such a book and effort is taken seriously.
Without that it is just another book and story.
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1You could not be more wrong. The purpose of a pastor is evangelism. He is to be soul winning 24/7. He should be teaching laymen how to give bible studies by giving bible studies. He should be holding evangelism campaigns to bring in the studies into fellowship with the Body of Christ.
What is the most effective ways to win souls. Speak it, teach it to others and forget it,OR......
2.He should be leading the congregation in evangelism, not being the Vicar of the Good Shepard. Christ is the Good Shepard and the head Elder of the Church should attend to the business of the church congregation with the Church Board. And even then, 80% of the time in every meeting should be dedicated to developing new soul winning programs.
What is evangelism and what does it cover? If there is a problem with the pastor and the head elder you leave no where to go and it is no ones business, which is what many find. The only business is evangelism to those we want to bring in and very little left for keeping them. Maybe the fact that 80% of the time efforts are made to win more and and 20% of the time is to be divided between the many other aspects of church business is why we have problems keeping the efforts of 80%
3.The Ministerial Secretary should be guiding the Pastor, particularly new Pastors in their evangelism efforts. And the Conference President Should be working constantly to develop and implement conference wide evangelism efforts, including the use of Colporteurs and Bible workers to work with what should be over-worked Pastors as they prepare for one campaign after another.
Guiding the pastor in what?? Maybe our efforts need to be a little more evenly divided. Being instrumental in bringing new souls in is followed by what responsibility for all. From the GC president down to the member in the pew?
There is no need for discussion or concern when some feel that there are obvious or alleged wrong doing by 3 ABN. We can find no one that has any other duties besides evangelism
Why is there so much concern geared in that direction relating to leaders that some feel should have either stepped away and distanced themselves or spoken out. It does not appear to be their job
They are doing what you suggest. They have won many souls from what I hear. Any conference that may have a connection with an org. that may present problems has only to have ...
Conference Presidentworking constantly to develop and implement conference wide evangelism efforts, including the use of Colporteurs and Bible workers to work with what should be over-worked Pastors as they prepare for one campaign after another.
At least from what I have read there has been a pretty dedicated effort to express concern and efforts geared towards the single issue fo evangelism.
[/quote]
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There is no conclusion? Then what is the point of the story?
From the first introduction it would appear that you are blaming the pator and the whole church for being abusers simply because they did not notice ot talk to a crying worman in the back of the church. From people who did not read the book that is the point it would appear you are making.
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There is no conclusion? Then what is the point of the story?
From the first introduction it would appear that you are blaming the pator and the whole church for being abusers simply because they did not notice ot talk to a crying worman in the back of the church. From people who did not read the book that is the point it would appear you are making.
Maybe the point of the story is what can be learned by those that care or are interested in learning how to prevent or support someone.
There was nothing "simply" about this crying woman. Well known and ignored.
How do you know about abuse and ignore it and escape your portion of the blame?
Most here, and it seems you are not one of them, knew what I was referring to as to the book. What the book addresses is not to put a story out there to point blame.
We ignore and dismiss while discussing the "love of Christ"
This should give some idea....
counselor-authors will be presenting a book at this conference on abuse in the SDA church (and all denominationl churches). There are books in the non-SDA christian community but very few in our own church. The article mentioned above hits Domestic Violence right between the eyes (no pun intended and I am not laughting) We are talking about a very silent/denial subject of Christian family abuse. This abuse goes on, from the pastor(oh, yes it does) in the pulpit, the leaders in the church on down to the pew sitters. All kinds of abuse, emotional, physical, verbal, spiritual and all come under "battering". The abuser and the one abused are all hurting and the church family should be protecting the victims and working on saving the abuser. What 'good' advice is frequently told the victims in the church?--"The Bible says not to divorce", "Don't spread the church's dirty laundry", "What did YOU do to make him hit you"? "You need to go back and be a good submissive wife". Then there is also the husband that is abused and has no where to turn.
Name of the book? "We Suffered in Silence" How a Pastor's family lived in Shame while hiding Dark Spots on the Clerical Collar.
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I went back and re read the thread. Nowhere do I get the impression or statement do I get that you are refering to a book in your discussion. Did anyone else not know this was just a situation in a book?
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You are right, I explained it badly. My example is not part of the book, but ties into what has been explained about the book so far and the problems we face as a denomination. My example is on that happened and never should, while people looked the other way. It was not a case of ignorance, or just not seeing what was going on.
It was deliberate. One of the reason's. "Well, he was doing some good things so we didn't know what to do"
What good is our profession of faith when it is shown in this way? What are the ways that some "teeth can be put into our profession of faith"
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I went back and re read the thread. Nowhere do I get the impression or statement do I get that you are refering to a book in your discussion. Did anyone else not know this was just a situation in a book?
RedFalcon, I feel that you are missing the point. This is often not "just a situation in a book". This can be real life experiences. How would you deal with it? Pass it off as 'some situation like in a book', or actively try to do something to change the situation? I think we all need to ask ourselves that question.
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Chrissie
How can I change a situation in a book. I am not a member of that church nor will I most likely ever be. So I do not understand your point?
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Chrissie
I think you put to much into that story. Many people would not do anything because they just do not want to [censored] into someone elses affairs.Getting into another affairs is a difficult thing to do for most people. Some can do it with ease others of a introverted nature like myself would be find it very unconfortable to deal with someones elses pains.
I do resent the implied statement that those that find it difficult to get into anothers emotions are themselves abusers though. Not knowing the reasons for the woman crying and not asking does not make one an abuser does it?
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Chrissie
How can I change a situation in a book. I am not a member of that church nor will I most likely ever be. So I do not understand your point?
Well, put it this way. How would you deal with it, if it was an actual situation in your Church? I think this is a very easy question to understand.
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Fair question Chrissy.
Let me say this. As a man it would not be proper for me to comfort a grieving female church member. To many times a woman in that position is vunerable and sometimes men take advantage of that situation or the comfort is misinterpreted or leads to a sexual situation that neigher side intended. So because of that I would not want to get involved without a female church member involved to avoid any misunderstanding.
Now a female church member it would be proper to get involved and comfort the woman.
Do you understand my position?
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Chrissie
How can I change a situation in a book. I am not a member of that church nor will I most likely ever be. So I do not understand your point?
Wouuld you understand if I asked, Are we willing as a church to prevent this story from being retold in the future, time and time again,just different names, different churches? ? Before you have to deal with the pain of another. Maybe your church. Maybe a family member
How is a profession of faith carried out? Are the words that are so easy to say all there is to it
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Fair question Chrissy.
Let me say this. As a man it would not be proper for me to comfort a grieving female church member. To many times a woman in that position is vunerable and sometimes men take advantage of that situation or the comfort is misinterpreted or leads to a sexual situation that neigher side intended. So because of that I would not want to get involved without a female church member involved to avoid any misunderstanding.
Now a female church member it would be proper to get involved and comfort the woman.
Do you understand my position?
So because of that I would not want to get involved without a female church member involved to avoid any misunderstanding
You have provided your own solution to the problem of getting involved, one on one?
Would it be proper for you as a man to become involved before there was someone identified in this situation?
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Chrissie
I think you put to much into that story. Many people would not do anything because they just do not want to [censored] into someone elses affairs.Getting into another affairs is a difficult thing to do for most people. Some can do it with ease others of a introverted nature like myself would be find it very unconfortable to deal with someones elses pains.
I do resent the implied statement that those that find it difficult to get into anothers emotions are themselves abusers though. Not knowing the reasons for the woman crying and not asking does not make one an abuser does it?
Again, What would Jesus do?
Abuse happens, any kind of abuse, when people allow it to happen.
There are many things that can be done, prior to getting into anothers emotions.
Most present knew the reason for the crying church member. What definition is applicable to those that knew, allowed,and condoned by silence the emotional destruction of this woman and her child? Failing to act, when action and support were definately called for, "Because he was doing some good things"
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First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.
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First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.
You are entirely wrong, most knew exactly what was bothering the woman. They also knew that the impact of the problem would have ramifications for the whole congregation
No one has suggested anything improper be done. No one has suggested not taking along another party with them.
What should we be doing, teaching and putting into practise as a church before we get to this stage
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You are entirely wrong, most knew exactly what was bothering the woman. They also knew that the impact of the problem would have ramifications for the whole congregation
No one has suggested anything improper be done. No one has suggested not taking along another party with them.
What should we be doing, teaching and putting into practise as a church before we get to this stage
Again you did not make that clear in your prior posts Bonnie. You have to be clear in your posts. It just sounded as if a woman was there crying and no one knew why and therefore the entire church were abusers because they did not comfort her. Go back and read your own posts Bonnie.
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You are entirely wrong, most knew exactly what was bothering the woman. They also knew that the impact of the problem would have ramifications for the whole congregation
No one has suggested anything improper be done. No one has suggested not taking along another party with them.
What should we be doing, teaching and putting into practise as a church before we get to this stage
Again you did not make that clear in your prior posts Bonnie. You have to be clear in your posts. It just sounded as if a woman was there crying and no one knew why and therefore the entire church were abusers because they did not comfort her. Go back and read your own posts Bonnie.
I did and that of others.
No, it is not the problem of a specific local church. It is widespread.
Wake up calls are usually dismissed rather quickly. Met with the willful arrogance of knowing the words. Arrogance leads to willful ignorance . Ignorance colors one's perception
I think you are somewhat missing the point. I did not mention that incident for specific solutions to this woman's problems and lack of support.Rather a much larger issue. As Ginge has pointed out in her book, the pastor was the problem and all looked the other way. What could have and should have been done by those observing. A visit and taking out to lunch I am sure would be much appreciated, but then what??
There is no conclusion? Then what is the point of the story?
From the first introduction it would appear that you are blaming the pator and the whole church for being abusers simply because they did not notice ot talk to a crying worman in the back of the church. From people who did not read the book that is the point it would appear you are making.
Maybe the point of the story is what can be learned by those that care or are interested in learning how to prevent or support someone.
FairHavens.....
And there's the rub. We probably have all the knowingthat we need as xtians. It is in the practise that we fail. Our unwillingness to do what we know we ought, for whatever justifications that we can reasonably cook up. We know with righteous certainty what the other person should have done but if we had to face the same situation given the same set of circumstances would we have done differently?
I think that when we begin to observe the little things that we might ignore as unimportant even though a tiny voice in our heads tell us 'that ain't right' or 'you should do this' and the Spirit begins to increase our power to do the right thing every time (yea,I know that's a tall order) we will begin to experience the change that Bonnie's original question expect to see in us.
Chrissie....
RedFalcon, I feel that you are missing the point. This is often not "just a situation in a book". This can be real life experiences. How would you deal with it? Pass it off as 'some situation like in a book', or actively try to do something to change the situation? I think we all need to ask ourselves that question.
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How do we exercice faith? how do we put it into practice. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (hearing the voice of God in His word)." Rom.10:17.
I believe the Bible because I have found it to be the voice of God speaking to my soul. The Bible is God's word to us, not written merely, but spoken! In other words, the Bible is God's voice speaking to us, just as surely as though we could hear it with our ears. If we realized this, with what awe would we open God's word, and with what earnestness would we search its precepts! Psalm 119:161,162. See Testimonies, Vol.6, p.393.
For example, the ten commandments spoken by Christ at Sinai are the voice of God from Heaven speaking to the soul in promise of the Spirit. It is ever speaking to us. Thus, there is not a negative in that law although it may appear thus! See 1 B.C.1105.
Received as the voice of God speaking to the soul, it imparts power, it begets life, even the life of the Infinite One. It transforms the nature and re-creates the soul in the image of God. And the life which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Psalm 119:93,50; Matt.4:4; See Education, p.126.
In the beginning God said, "Let there be light! And there was light!" out of sheer darkness! "He spoke and it was!" Ps.33:9. He spoke the word only! There was no time between the word spoken and the thing done. It is the same voice from Heaven speaking to us in redemption. After the fall, the hearts of men became spiritually dark and alienated from God. But on account of the merits of a Saviour to come and who has come, the Lord speaks to us wonderful words of life, even life everlasting. Again, He speaks the word only, saying "Let the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ shine in the darkened void of your heart." 2 Cor.4:6. The light of His presence and glory immediately shines in your heart and in my heart if we are willing to be as submissive to the voice of His word as is the inanimate creation!
Whosoever is hungering and thirsting for the light of God's presence and glory and hears His voice and believes, immediately becomes light in the Lord. "You were once darkness but NOW you are light in the Lord." Eph.5:8. Such will sing the praises of "Him who called them out of darkness into His marvelous light." 1 Peter 2:9.
And "As they have received Him, so walk they in Him," "By every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God." Matt.4:4.
"I will praise Your word." Psalm 56:4,10.
To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen!
sky
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First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.
Hmmmm, almost sounds as if we have done this before on another forum. Anyways, I'm sorry but I just came in on this. I am surprised by this poster. When I attended a church, when a person, man or woman was crying, anyone, man or woman, would walk up and ask what the matter was. It was if a man took the lady into a room, closed the door that men were to take another man into the room.
I will continue reading and post as I come across a post I need to.
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First of all we are not mind readers. There is no way anyone could have known what was bothering the woman without talking to her. As I said that is not proper for a man to do that but a woman by all means. I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.
Hmmmm, almost sounds as if we have done this before on another forum. Anyways, I'm sorry but I just came in on this. I am surprised by this poster. When I attended a church, when a person, man or woman was crying, anyone, man or woman, would walk up and ask what the matter was. It was if a man took the lady into a room, closed the door that men were to take another man into the room.
I will continue reading and post as I come across a post I need to.
Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. :caution: Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation. Aren't we all our brother's (or sister's) keeper? I believe so.
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Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. Caution Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation. Aren't we all our brother's (or sister's) keeper? I believe so.
Yes, I believe we ARE our brothers/sisters keepers. It makes me upset that people would not care what is wrong with a person if they are crying. I can't say that I have been there exactly, but I have been there in other ways. It certainly makes a person feel very and I do mean VERY unwelcome in that atmosphere. I hate to keep referring to my pastor I had as a child, but he was just the best paster of all time in my book! Anyways, if he had not brought himself down to the congregations level, then I do not believe the church would have been as successful as it was 'back in the day.' I will forever cherish those days as he was concerned about EVERYONE, not just one or two or three that were his favorites. But he cared about everyone. I know that if someone had been crying, it would not have mattered if he was in the middle of something, he would have gone to find out what the matter was. To me that is being a true christian. Maybe I have it all wrong, but having a shoulder to cry on is something very important to the person who is crying. I just wish there were people within the (any) church that would put their arm around a crying person and just even told them something like, 'it will be alright, lets talk about whatever is bothering you', or even 'let God take your cares away', or even the least invasive 'are you going to be okay?' Even those go a long way. It makes a person feel like someone even if they didn't know you cared about you. If even for a minute or two while you talked to them. Every little minute counts in the life of a person. I mean, how do you know that you didn't just save a life? How do you know that if you did not say anything to them, that they would not go out and kill themself? You never will.
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I have attended seminars where male members of the church deacons elders and pastors are intstructed NOT go go comfort a grieving woman in the church without taking another male along or a female member. Never one on one with a member of the opposite sex we are told. In this day and age is is just not wise to do that.
What a sad thing to learn as a deacon or elder or pastor. :'(
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Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. Caution Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation. Aren't we all our brother's (or sister's) keeper? I believe so.
Yes, I believe we ARE our brothers/sisters keepers. It makes me upset that people would not care what is wrong with a person if they are crying. I can't say that I have been there exactly, but I have been there in other ways. It certainly makes a person feel very and I do mean VERY unwelcome in that atmosphere.
I agree that we are ALL responsible as Christians, to do what one possibly can to console or assist a distressed person. As far as I'm concerned, those remarks posted by Red Falcon, are just a cop out - an excuse (not a reason), for doing nothing and therefore allowing and encouraging abuse.
[quoteI hate to keep referring to my pastor I had as a child, but he was just the best paster of all time in my book! Anyways, if he had not brought himself down to the congregations level, then I do not believe the church would have been as successful as it was 'back in the day.' I will forever cherish those days as he was concerned about EVERYONE, not just one or two or three that were his favorites. But he cared about everyone. I know that if someone had been crying, it would not have mattered if he was in the middle of something, he would have gone to find out what the matter was. To me that is being a true christian. Maybe I have it all wrong, but having a shoulder to cry on is something very important to the person who is crying. I just wish there were people within the (any) church that would put their arm around a crying person and just even told them something like, 'it will be alright, lets talk about whatever is bothering you', or even 'let God take your cares away', or even the least invasive 'are you going to be okay?' Even those go a long way. It makes a person feel like someone even if they didn't know you cared about you. If even for a minute or two while you talked to them. Every little minute counts in the life of a person. I mean, how do you know that you didn't just save a life? How do you know that if you did not say anything to them, that they would not go out and kill themself? You never will.
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Lil, you are just so 'spot on'. You were indeed fortunate, to have such a wonderful Pastor in your earlier days. Oh, that there were more Pastors and other Church leaders like that now. :amen:
It is so true that just one kind word or action could well prevent a person from taking their own life. And how much does it really take, to take a few moments out of one's own personal (self-centred) schedule, to show some compassion for a distraught person - be that male or female. As I've spent more than 30 years working in these situations, no one will convince me otherwise.
Ignore abuse and it's akin to condoning abuse. Ignore a distressed person, and you could be the one that took the last drop of hope from that person; sufficient for them to think themself absolutely worthless in God's sight and also in the sight of the pious congregation who choose to ignore the 'child of God' who mostly needs to know that 'someone cares'.
If anyone is offended by what I've stated, that's TOUGH. I make no apology for being so blunt, as this is reality - not some fairy-story. It's time to wake up and ask ourselves "What would Jesus do"?
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[quote author=Lil Star
Hmmmm, almost sounds as if we have done this before on another forum. Anyways, I'm sorry but I just came in on this. I am surprised by this poster. When I attended a church, when a person, man or woman was crying, anyone, man or woman, would walk up and ask what the matter was. It was if a man took the lady into a room, closed the door that men were to take another man into the room.
I will continue reading and post as I come across a post I need to.
[/quote]
Yes, Lil Star, this is the same old familiar story. Taken right out of the same playbook that has been used for years. There are some that use the collective "we" as in "We are not mind readers" to put forth their own idea and make it seem as a concensus.
In this case I believe the "we" is "one" that is again focusing on something that was not the intent and erecting a problem or problems to obscure and complicate an example as to what some of our problems are as a church.
It is not complicated.
Most that chose to, I believe understood
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Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situatio
Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy. We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.
Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.
In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.
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Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situatio
Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy. We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.
Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.
In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.
It did not seem like this is what you were saying. I am glad that even tho you said you misunderstood, you realize the need to help and support those that may need it, while using simple preventative steps from causing complications.
Most lawsuits of Sexual Misconduct that are filed are found to be accurate. A couple of years ago it was Risk Management that claimed 8 out of 10 were found to be telling the truth.
Care and caution is always prudent, but need not get in the way of doing "What jesus Would Do"
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Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situatio
Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy. We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.
Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.
In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.
Daryl put it quite simply, simple enough for the topic to be understood in the very beginning. 7th post.
Daryl Fawcett
Administrator
Veteran Member
Re: How Do You Put Faith Into Practise?
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2008, 03:34:25 PM » Quote
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This doesn't seem to be a problem with any specific local church, but seems to be widespread, therefore, a wake-up call is needed.
Abuse is not a single issue, involving sexual abuse or misconduct.
One member ignored, showing obvious signs of distress, does not always indicate sexual abuse. It does indicate a lack of concern, compassion, willingness to "do unto others" that will definately show up in allowing sexual abuse.
There is not one giant leap from a caring supportive church, to one that turns their back on a victim of this type of abuse. It is a learned behavior and one we get quite comfrotable with
It indicates a lack of awareness or caring to fail to be proactive as a church to be ready and able to step into a need and help. In the appropriate manner.
PLease note, this is example only, not that you are to run out and find this hungry party.
One member of a church noticed an obvious need by a family. Family to embarrassed to say anything. Simple observation of watching a child take food from the potluck table, not eating it but putting in his knapsack. Hearing something the child said to his mother, he knew he was right and there was a real need. Because of a personality conflict between the man and this family, he did not feel help would be well received or appropriate for him to be seen as the one helping. He discreetly approached another member, explained and offered the money for her to purchase a very large amount of much needed groceries. To be done so that the receiving family was comfortable they were not the talk of the church in their crisis. The situation resolved itself without anyone else knowing.
This man stepped out of his comfort zone and did find a way to help.
He did not repeat scripture or find reasons for not helping. To allow something like this when you realize a need and can lend a hand is abuse.
To allow needless want and suffering because it is out of our comfort zone, sexual/physical/emotional abuse will be just one more form we as a church are comfortable with and see no reason for hands on training to prevent. No reason to have a little mission endeavor and steps to take in our churches.
edited to correct a sentence
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Lil, whenever I come across people who want to deny that they have any responsibility for checking on 'WHY' someone (male or female), when they are obviously distressed, I can't help but wonder about motive. [Caution] Call me suspicious, dirty-minded, whatever you like, but those alarm bells keep ringing in my head and I see red flags flying too.
That's probably just because of years of seeing what is really going on behind people choosing to ignore such a situation
Ok. Maybe you misunderstood me Chrissy. We are advised to not go a person of the opposite sex house or place where she would be alone with you without another person with you.
Now to talk to the woman in a public place like church would be wise to have someone with you to avoid those gossip mongers that every church has. It is only a precaution.
In this day and age of lawsuits of Sexual misconduct even an accusation of sexual misconduct can ruin a persons reputation. We must take precautions. That is all I was saying.
Chrissie did not misunderstand you Red Falcon. I don't believe that anyone who has contributed to this topic, has suggested for a moment that a male should visit a female unaccompanied, in her home.
I think it was Bonnie who pointed out, that if ANY person ignores any kind of abuse (many more types that sexual abuse, as I'm sure that you are aware of) within the Church, it is like giving licence to permit abuse.
I believe that your expressed concern for 'lawsuits for sexual misconduct', is just a cop-out to ignore a problem that any one of us can do something about, if we CHOOSE to do so.
Bonnie raises some excellent points Red Falcon. Why not dialogue with her, regarding this situation. She has a lot of experience in this area, I understand.
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Bonnie when I asked you if this episode was in the book you said.
You are right, I explained it badly. My example is not part of the book, but ties into what has been explained about the book so far and the problems we face as a denomination. My example is on that happened and never should, while people looked the other way. It was not a case of ignorance, or just not seeing what was going on.
Sounds as if this episode is fictional to make a point. Am I correct?
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I believe that your expressed concern for 'lawsuits for sexual misconduct', is just a cop-out to ignore a problem that any one of us can do something about, if we CHOOSE to do so.
You are incorrect in your belief Chrissie. We must be careful and having others with us when we visit parishiners of the opposite sex is just prudent. Why accuse me of not caring. Of course I care. It would only take a few seconds to get someone to go with me to see what is wrong with the woman. No one is suggesting that nonthing would be done because we are afraid of a lawsuit or because it might look bad. Not at all. I just said that talking to the woman with another present just is prudent.
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I believe that your expressed concern for 'lawsuits for sexual misconduct', is just a cop-out to ignore a problem that any one of us can do something about, if we CHOOSE to do so.
You are incorrect in your belief Chrissie. We must be careful and having others with us when we visit parishiners of the opposite sex is just prudent. Why accuse me of not caring. Of course I care. It would only take a few seconds to get someone to go with me to see what is wrong with the woman. No one is suggesting that nonthing would be done because we are afraid of a lawsuit or because it might look bad. Not at all. I just said that talking to the woman with another present just is prudent.
Keep carrying on Red Falcon, but you're still avoiding the point. No one is suggesting for a minute, that a male visit a female in her home, without taking another person with him. We are clearly discussing what SHOULD happen at Church in such a situation.
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Bonnie when I asked you if this episode was in the book you said.
You are right, I explained it badly. My example is not part of the book, but ties into what has been explained about the book so far and the problems we face as a denomination. My example is on that happened and never should, while people looked the other way. It was not a case of ignorance, or just not seeing what was going on.
Sounds as if this episode is fictional to make a point. Am I correct?
No sorry. The example is completely true . I did not say the episode was fictional. It would be helpful to not interject something that was not said.
It is because of this I found out about Polly's Place. Knowledge that is not made widely available in out churches.
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I believe that your expressed concern for 'lawsuits for sexual misconduct', is just a cop-out to ignore a problem that any one of us can do something about, if we CHOOSE to do so.
You are incorrect in your belief Chrissie. We must be careful and having others with us when we visit parishiners of the opposite sex is just prudent. Why accuse me of not caring. Of course I care. It would only take a few seconds to get someone to go with me to see what is wrong with the woman. No one is suggesting that nonthing would be done because we are afraid of a lawsuit or because it might look bad. Not at all. I just said that talking to the woman with another present just is prudent.
Red Falcon,
For some reason you seem determined to keep heading this in a direction of your own. You were the one that began the remarks about visiting the woman and what problems it could cause for a man. No where did I suggest a man should visita woman parishoner alone, or even that a man would be best to handle this. I did not introduce the topic of lawsuits, you did, which is totally unnecessary here and simply does not apply. No one made the remotest suggestion as relates to your objections.
You say you care. That is great. Hopefully this means that maybe you take seriously ministering to our own. As in any type of ministry,it takes a cohesive effort by the members sitting in the pew.
It takes education and that of course takes interest. Education in how best to stop the apathy.
Glad to hear you are ready as that is what I CARE means. Otherwise it is like only knowing/ preaching the gospel. Just so many words that end up only showing you can recite