Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Artiste on February 14, 2008, 03:41:06 PM
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Johann coined the term "Sheltonism" a while back and originally asked the above question.
How can we be sure that in the future the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not fall again into the trap of deferring to a powerful and charismatic (in the eyes of some) individual.
Over a period of years, Sheltonism stealthily developed into an entrenched culture, spreading from the 3ABN compound out into local churches and up through church leadership.
The power of the TV media enabled the culture to permeate the lives of conservative Adventist people, while the media platform provided leaders with a welcome opportunity to be widely seen and heard.
Sheltonism flourished by means of control and manipulation.
When will it be banished for good from the church, and how can we prevent it from occurring again?
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Well stated, Artiste. So we do have a responsibility. . .
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Realistically, there are several ways that we could consider:
1. Follow a plan similar to what Adolph Hitler devised to pull the German people together as a nation to deal with a group he felt held far too much economic power (demonize/villify until they are looked at with such contempt that erradication is the natural result).
2. Start a brand new denomination that only allows membership to those people who see eye to eye with each other, quickly disfellowshipping any member who might depart from that majority consensus so as not to sully the the rest of the flock.
3. Seek to know God with all our hearts, become His true disciples and then get our derriere's up off of the pews to personally spread the Gospel to those within our sphere of influence instead of passing the buck to televangelists and/or leaders and then complaining when we discover that said televangelist/leaders might be less than perfect.
Of course, I'm sure there are other possibilities, as well...
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So we do have a responsibility. . .
How far does our responsibility lie?
By posting here on Advent Talk, we can let others who are searching know what information is coming out as investigation continues.
Do you think it helps overall to keep agitating on the issues?
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YES! It is the "squeeky wheel" that gets oiled!
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While men slumbered, the enemy sowed tares.
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YES! It is the "squeeky wheel" that gets oiled!
It is a hard and fast rule in society that information and education is what changes anything. I don't think this is any less an opportunity for that. IN fact, I have always believed that one of the reasons this is happening in the wide open (and we can thank DS for starting this by using his 3abn stage to get it going) is because this is MUCH to be learned.
The bible is FILLED with stories that are suppose to teach us and help us learn by examining someone else's experiences and then go forth wiser, in attempt to avoid things happening again the same or similar.
Yes, we can get up off our butts and do our part in spreading the work, but, it goes much farther then that. There must always be some accountability by those who speak for us, teach us and lead us, TO US. That is reasonable and also healthy. Those that do not want to be accountable to anyone should not be given authority then to speak for us, teach us and lead us. Does that makes sense?
So, maybe part of the answer is to learn from what's happened and that takes KNOWING whats happened, how and why, and then to watch and pray, as well as do all that can be done to keep things from repeating. Mistakes happen, that is one thing, but to hand over the golden keys to someone who is not deserving or has no one watching over is always going to leave an opening for abuse.
My opinion anyway.
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With information and education necessary to instigate change where change is needed, it would follow that the present lawsuit could be both educational and informative.
From hints scattered here and there by Gailon and Bob, I gather that there is a lot of information they have uncovered.
Will the Adventist public have access to this information at some point, assuming that there actually is information that could be educational in curing Sheltonism in the church?
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Not if Shelton has his way.
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Not if Shelton has his way.
So we, as stockholders in the pews, need to keep agitating, so that DS doesn't get his way?
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With information and education necessary to instigate change where change is needed, it would follow that the present lawsuit could be both educational and informative.
Will the Adventist public have access to this information at some point, assuming that there actually is information that could be educational in curing Sheltonism in the church?
It is my understanding that this is the purpose of the exercise - to educate and disseminate information, so that this kind of behaviour is no longer tolerated and that administrators, from the top downwards, realise the need for accountability and that they also accountable to God, for every incident that is covered up. Hopefully, lessons will be learned, despite the reality that there are always rouges in any organisation, who will attempt to twist and spin, so that their evil is not revealed. If nothing else, there should be greatere awareness both inside and outside the church.
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What will we learn if all is to be kept secret? In Scripture we find openness, even of the sins of the saints. Can a person be a saint who seeks to conceal everything?
Reformers and revivalists have been castigated throughout the history of God's Church, and even by the "saints"!
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King David tried to conceal his adulterous act with Bathsheba by even going to the extreme of arranging to have her husband killed in the front lines of a war and then marrying her.
If God hadn't intervened through the prophet Nathan, Davi would have been successful.
We need to pray that God in His own way will also intervene in this situation.
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What will we learn if all is to be kept secret? In Scripture we find openness, even of the sins of the saints. Can a person be a saint who seeks to conceal everything?
Reformers and revivalists have been castigated throughout the history of God's Church, and even by the "saints"!
Two years more since we discussed this, with more information and education, so will it make a difference now? Especially now?
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No more Sheltonism=Remove DS from all responisiblites and financial gain from 3ABN and please remove the chairman of the board.
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If there is a admission or a trial that concludes that TS commited the same type of crimes at while at 3ABN then that should effectively remove the Sheltonism from 3ABN. DS knew of the actions of TS and hired him to work at 3ABN! DS maybe right now in quicksand.
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If there is a admission or a trial that concludes that TS commited the same type of crimes at while at 3ABN
No, there isn't even a complaint or report filed through 3abn or through the SDA conference or any related church of this kind of crime.
then that should effectively remove the Sheltonism from 3ABN. DS knew of the actions of TS and hired him to work at 3ABN! DS maybe right now in quicksand.
Posted here, in a related post of yours.
Question:
1.) on how and what do you base the following statement "DS knew of the actions of TS and hired him to work at 3ABN"on ?
Evidence please. God is going to ask for your justification for every idle word,. Get started with your defense now!
Posted on another thread here:
3ABN_Defender
Senior Member
****
Online Online
Posts: 114
Re: Is Danny admitting to Tommy's guilt?
« Reply #65 on: Today at 12:24:11 PM »
from: Wendall on Today at 10:48:44 AM
Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely.
Wendall....
I am speaking here as someone who has asked and been answered by involved parties. Have you? I, admittedly, have no idea where you have received your opinions and views, or on what you have based them, but would ask that you submit any evidence or support for them from your POV before repeating it or defending it, or condemning even one or any other who is undeserving of such.
Tommy Shelton has paid for his own lawyer.
Tommy Shelton is basing and making his plea based on his pov and what he knows and proclaims.
Tommy Shelton's family has already been trashed here regardless of anything he may say or do, and in the interest of justice this needs to be pursued and answered according to the facts of the case and regardless of who accuses and condemns his relatives or the 3ABN ministry.
If anyone, has evidence to contradict this then they need to contact law enforcement, and either post the facts concerning that here or hush their mouths.
3d
Edited formatting only by Johann
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If there is a admission or a trial that concludes that TS commited the same type of crimes at while at 3ABN
No, there isn't even a complaint or report filed through 3abn or through the SDA conference or any related church of this kind of crime.
For quite some time, there have been allegations that Tommy engaged or tried to engage in unseemly conduct on 3ABN premises and/or with 3ABN personnel.
1.) on how and what do you base the following statement "DS knew of the actions of TS and hired him to work at 3ABN"on ?
When those folks in 1985 were bringing the car back that Tommy had given their son, one of the alleged victims, Tommy was beside himself in Danny's house, according to one of Tommy's alleged victims. Therefore, according to that report, Danny knew of the allegations.
There's the relative of one of the alleged victims who claimed that Danny threatened her in 1985.
There's the report that while Tommy was in Virginia, that Danny said, "Tommy's done it again."
There's more.
But one has to ask, what sort of evidence would you find convincing? Or have you already determined that no evidence is good enough?
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I am speaking here as someone who has asked and been answered by involved parties.
3ABN_Defender,the above statement from you is quite nebulous, it appears to be purposely vague. Who are the alledged "involved parties" you have spoken with concerning Tommy Shelton? Obviously we have no idea where you have received your opinions and views, or on what you have actually based them, since you have not submitted any evidence with whom you have actually spoken or what was actually discussed. Since you have not named the individual or revealed in what form the information was given, perhaps it is even second or third hand. "Involved parties" implies that you have spoken with more than one individual. So who are the "involved parties"? If you refuse to name them, one can only assume that you are merely plucking "facts" from the wind in order to justify your opinions.
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With information and education necessary to instigate change where change is needed, it would follow that the present lawsuit could be both educational and informative.
From hints scattered here and there by Gailon and Bob, I gather that there is a lot of information they have uncovered.
Will the Adventist public have access to this information at some point, assuming that there actually is information that could be educational in curing Sheltonism in the church?
It never ceases to amaze me that "all this information" presented by Bob and Gailon starts with "I heard" or "someone told me" or "I've been told" and none of you ever question it. Actually it then is discussed as fact and repeated over and over. This is the height and depth of gossip and heresay and yet you all profess to be christians.
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This is exactly what has went on here for the last 3 or 4 years and this little group has been used by Bob and Gailon to orchestrate everything that has happened. Since they don't work I guess they can work at this 24/7. Everyone here needs to realize this, if Bob or Gailon turn on any one of you they will do the same thing to you as they have done to those at 3abn. Actually it's easy to find accusations of wrong doing towards anybody and the more people you get involved, the bigger the stories get. You can really go to town when ex husbands or ex wives are on board or even started the whole thing. How many of you out there would like Bob talking to your ex? Well, the next thing you know, no one cares if any of it's true, just as long as it's a good read.
How sad
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
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With information and education necessary to instigate change where change is needed, it would follow that the present lawsuit could be both educational and informative.
From hints scattered here and there by Gailon and Bob, I gather that there is a lot of information they have uncovered.
Will the Adventist public have access to this information at some point, assuming that there actually is information that could be educational in curing Sheltonism in the church?
It never ceases to amaze me that "all this information" presented by Bob and Gailon starts with "I heard" or "someone told me" or "I've been told" and none of you ever question it. Actually it then is discussed as fact and repeated over and over. This is the height and depth of gossip and heresay and yet you all profess to be christians.
**************************************.
**************************************.
This is exactly what has went on here for the last 3 or 4 years and this little group has been used by Bob and Gailon to orchestrate everything that has happened. Since they don't work I guess they can work at this 24/7. Everyone here needs to realize this, if Bob or Gailon turn on any one of you they will do the same thing to you as they have done to those at 3abn. Actually it's easy to find accusations of wrong doing towards anybody and the more people you get involved, the bigger the stories get. You can really go to town when ex husbands or ex wives are on board or even started the whole thing. How many of you out there would like Bob talking to your ex? Well, the next thing you know, no one cares if any of it's true, just as long as it's a good read.
How sad
I gave a first hand account of what happened to me, and you don't believe that, either. I doubt any kind of "evidence" would be enough to satisfy you.
Edited to remove inappropriate content from quoted post.
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With information and education necessary to instigate change where change is needed, it would follow that the present lawsuit could be both educational and informative.
From hints scattered here and there by Gailon and Bob, I gather that there is a lot of information they have uncovered.
Will the Adventist public have access to this information at some point, assuming that there actually is information that could be educational in curing Sheltonism in the church?
It never ceases to amaze me that "all this information" presented by Bob and Gailon starts with "I heard" or "someone told me" or "I've been told" and none of you ever question it. Actually it then is discussed as fact and repeated over and over. This is the height and depth of gossip and heresay and yet you all profess to be christians.
**************************************.
**************************************.
This is exactly what has went on here for the last 3 or 4 years and this little group has been used by Bob and Gailon to orchestrate everything that has happened. Since they don't work I guess they can work at this 24/7. Everyone here needs to realize this, if Bob or Gailon turn on any one of you they will do the same thing to you as they have done to those at 3abn. Actually it's easy to find accusations of wrong doing towards anybody and the more people you get involved, the bigger the stories get. You can really go to town when ex husbands or ex wives are on board or even started the whole thing. How many of you out there would like Bob talking to your ex? Well, the next thing you know, no one cares if any of it's true, just as long as it's a good read.
How sad
I gave a first hand account of what happened to me, and you don't believe that, either. I doubt any kind of "evidence" would be enough to satisfy you.
Edited to remove inappropriate content from quoted post.
Mr Clem, this post wasn't even about you. The problem is not that you gave testimony against Tommy Shelton. The problem is that you did not confine yourself to that accusation but are here supporting and speaking about all the allegations against 3abn and Danny Shelton ect and of things you have no personal knowledge of but pretend that you do. The problem with you is that you refuse to answer any questions about your role as an accuser or answer any questions the other accusations you make against 3ABN cause.
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With information and education necessary to instigate change where change is needed, it would follow that the present lawsuit could be both educational and informative.
From hints scattered here and there by Gailon and Bob, I gather that there is a lot of information they have uncovered.
Will the Adventist public have access to this information at some point, assuming that there actually is information that could be educational in curing Sheltonism in the church?
It never ceases to amaze me that "all this information" presented by Bob and Gailon starts with "I heard" or "someone told me" or "I've been told" and none of you ever question it. Actually it then is discussed as fact and repeated over and over. This is the height and depth of gossip and heresay and yet you all profess to be christians.
**************************************.
**************************************.
This is exactly what has went on here for the last 3 or 4 years and this little group has been used by Bob and Gailon to orchestrate everything that has happened. Since they don't work I guess they can work at this 24/7. Everyone here needs to realize this, if Bob or Gailon turn on any one of you they will do the same thing to you as they have done to those at 3abn. Actually it's easy to find accusations of wrong doing towards anybody and the more people you get involved, the bigger the stories get. You can really go to town when ex husbands or ex wives are on board or even started the whole thing. How many of you out there would like Bob talking to your ex? Well, the next thing you know, no one cares if any of it's true, just as long as it's a good read.
How sad
I gave a first hand account of what happened to me, and you don't believe that, either. I doubt any kind of "evidence" would be enough to satisfy you.
Edited to remove inappropriate content from quoted post.
Mr Clem, this post wasn't even about you. The problem is not that you gave testimony against Tommy Shelton. The problem is that you did not confine yourself to that accusation but are here supporting and speaking about all the allegations against 3abn and Danny Shelton ect and of things you have no personal knowledge of but pretend that you do. The problem with you is that you refuse to answer any questions about your role as an accuser or answer any questions the other accusations you make against 3ABN cause.
Strange, I only remember commenting at length about my experiences when I was employed there and wrongfully terminated. What questions are you talking about?
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You asked how"Sheltonism" not happen again... I think what happens is that we allow ourselves to put too much trust in man and take our eyes off Jesus Christ. It's easy to let someone else take control and do the work and sometimes it's easier to let someone else do the "thinking" for us too. But the worst part, is when we let them do our "believing" for us. We don't mean to, it's just easier.... after all, God chose them to be Ministers, lay speakers, surely they are smarter than we are and holier than we are, RIGHT???? WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...... We are all the same in the eyes of Jesus Christ... If you think it only happens in your church, think again...It happens in the Methodist, the Baptist and we all know it happens in the Catholic, so no congregation is immune. People are people and we all are basically lazy. :ROFL:
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You make a very good fundamental point that goes right to the ehart of human nature.
You asked how"Sheltonism" not happen again... I think what happens is that we allow ourselves to put too much trust in man and take our eyes off Jesus Christ. It's easy to let someone else take control and do the work and sometimes it's easier to let someone else do the "thinking" for us too. But the worst part, is when we let them do our "believing" for us. We don't mean to, it's just easier.... after all, God chose them to be Ministers, lay speakers, surely they are smarter than we are and holier than we are, RIGHT???? WRONG, WRONG, WRONG...... We are all the same in the eyes of Jesus Christ... If you think it only happens in your church, think again...It happens in the Methodist, the Baptist and we all know it happens in the Catholic, so no congregation is immune. People are people and we all are basically lazy. :ROFL:
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Johann coined the term "Sheltonism" a while back and originally asked the above question.
How can we be sure that in the future the Seventh-day Adventist Church does not fall again into the trap of deferring to a powerful and charismatic (in the eyes of some) individual.
Over a period of years, Sheltonism stealthily developed into an entrenched culture, spreading from the 3ABN compound out into local churches and up through church leadership.
The power of the TV media enabled the culture to permeate the lives of conservative Adventist people, while the media platform provided leaders with a welcome opportunity to be widely seen and heard.
Sheltonism flourished by means of control and manipulation.
When will it be banished for good from the church, and how can we prevent it from occurring again?
It will not be banished until the true reformation, just prior to the second coming, and thrives in any human culture as a natural consequence of man's seperation from the abiding Love of God. C'est la vie!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter