Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: ex3abnemployee on July 09, 2010, 04:23:19 PM
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I received information a short time ago that a plea agreement has been reached in the Tommy Shelton sexual abuse cases currently pending in Virginia. According to sources, Tommy Ray Shelton will appear in court on Monday, July 19 in Fairfax County, Virginia and plead guilty to two counts of Custodial Indecent Liberties with two minors. Under the terms of this agreement, he will face no prison time but will be required to register as a sex offender, and will also receive probation for a length of time to be determined by the court.
To be clear, this will be two pleas of guilty, rather that pleas of no contest. Tommy Shelton will at long last be admitting that he did, in fact, commit the crimes he has been charged with. These are felony charges.
This will bring some closure, at least, to nearly 40 years of scandal and allegations surrounding Shelton's ministry, which has affected numerous victims over the years. It will be interesting to see the responses from those who have so vehemently defended him, while threatening, intimidating and slandering his victims.
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A guilty plea rather than a guilty verdict...sounds like he didn't want to play the odds...
Yes, waiting to see how they spin it...
Scratsmom
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Is this the best outcome possible for all concerned? An older man with (I gather) health problems
admits guilt but is not incarcerated, and the victims' wrongs are acknowledged.
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This is right on target for which many had expected.
The Grand Jury clearly did not believe that there was suficient evidence to obtain a conviction on the charges first brought to them. So, they reduced the charges.
This saves the victims from a trail that would not have been fun and required them to relive the events of years ago.
With the passage of time and the age and health of TS a jury just might have been sympathetic and if convicting given him a reduced sentence.
A primary prosecution goal is reached by registration as a sex offender.
TS has a period of time during which he is required to meet probation requirements.
NOTE: The above comments all assume that the report of the plea bargain is accurate and that TS actually follows through.
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This is right on target for which many had expected.
The Grand Jury clearly did not believe that there was suficient evidence to obtain a conviction on the charges first brought to them. So, they reduced the charges.
This saves the victims from a trail that would not have been fun and required them to relive the events of years ago.
With the passage of time and the age and health of TS a jury just might have been sympathetic and if convicting given him a reduced sentence.
A primary prosecution goal is reached by registration as a sex offender.
TS has a period of time during which he is required to meet probation requirements.
NOTE: The above comments all assume that the report of the plea bargain is accurate and that TS actually follows through.
Can you prove that?
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Gregory, the Grand Jury didn't reduce the charges at all, from what I understand.
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So the Grand Jury did not reduce any of the charges brought by the victims, and Tommy Shelton pleaded guilty as a child molester. He registers as a sex offender and goes on probation.
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I was thrilled to find out that this man is finally being brought to justice.
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Sounds like you have a vested interest in these cases. By the way, welcome to AdventTalk, waitingforjustice!
I was thrilled to find out that this man is finally being brought to justice.
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Samuel Thomas:
I read it in a newspaper account of the Grand Jury. No, I do not have that account before me now. Yes, the media sometimes gets it wrong. So, can I prove it? No.
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Gregory:
My understanding is that these things was changed at the preliminary hearing, and had nothing to do with the grand jury.
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Gregory:
My understanding is that these things was changed at the preliminary hearing, and had nothing to do with the grand jury.
That is what I had heard as well.
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The charges were changed at the preliminary hearing so that the charges fit the crimes alleged by the alleged victims, not because of a lack of evidence, from what I understand.
Just think: After July 19 we won't have to keep saying "alleged" in order to try to avoid a defamation lawsuit.
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It apears that you are correct. Here is the newspaper account:
Shelton, 64, was the pastor of Community Church of God at 2500 Gallows Rd. in the Dunn Loring area from 1995 to 2000. Police said two men came forward in 2008 and alleged that Shelton had sexually assaulted them when they were boys. Shelton, now living in Marion, Ky., was arrested in March and charged with two counts of aggravated sexual battery, two counts of indecent liberties with a minor and sodomy.
In a preliminary hearing Thursday in Fairfax Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court, Fairfax prosecutors significantly reduced the charges against Shelton. Fairfax Deputy Commonwealth's Attorney Katherine E. Stott reduced the sodomy charge, which carried a minimum of five years and a maximum of life in prison, to carnal knowledge, which has a range of two to 10 years in prison. Subsequent testimony by the complaining witness did not fit the sodomy charge.
I was wrong in attributing the reduction in charges to the Grand Jury.
However, I stil stand-by the major thesis of my previous post.
Thank you for correcting my error in stating it was the Grand Jury.
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Thank you, Gregory.
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It apears that you are correct. Here is the newspaper account:
Shelton, 64, was the pastor of Community Church of God at 2500 Gallows Rd. in the Dunn Loring area from 1995 to 2000. Police said two men came forward in 2008 and alleged that Shelton had sexually assaulted them when they were boys. Shelton, now living in Marion, Ky., was arrested in March and charged with two counts of aggravated sexual battery, two counts of indecent liberties with a minor and sodomy.
In a preliminary hearing Thursday in Fairfax Juvenile and Domestic Relations Court, Fairfax prosecutors significantly reduced the charges against Shelton. Fairfax Deputy Commonwealth's Attorney Katherine E. Stott reduced the sodomy charge, which carried a minimum of five years and a maximum of life in prison, to carnal knowledge, which has a range of two to 10 years in prison. Subsequent testimony by the complaining witness did not fit the sodomy charge.
I was wrong in attributing the reduction in charges to the Grand Jury.
However, I stil stand-by the major thesis of my previous post.
Thank you for correcting my error in stating it was the Grand Jury.
I would say I agree with your analysis.
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I was thrilled to find out that this man is finally being brought to justice.
Welcome to AT!
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A friend of mine once told me a story about someone who got away with a crime. Even though that is not the case here. I think his words say it all:
"Whether he goes inside or not, he'll be "in prison" for the rest of his life."
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Boy, the defenders seem to have gotten severe cases of lockjaw. Wonder why?
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Boy, the defenders seem to have gotten severe cases of lockjaw. Wonder why?
Especially, Junebug, who claimed over and over again that Tommy would be declared innocent. It appears they have nothing to say now...... :ROFL:
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Hmmm, didn't I state that he would plead "guilty". Now...what does he pay?? Staying in the house "with his clothes on"?? I felt he needed a change of cloths for his deeds. Don't tell me there was not "persuasion" over this. I figured it long time ago. His guilty plea for "flee" for now will get him nothing but hell for justice on judgment day with that sick corrupted mind that for years never changed. Find any one that ever changed?? Nope their mind was seared in their first deed of black evil.
Just think wiffee will have him under her feet all day. :ROFL: Can anyone imagine living with that evil everyday of your life?? You become what you live with!!.....So be it. or should I say You are what you choose. That is why I have no sympathy but disgust for the "guilty" and the sympathizers. I am glad that is over but not happy with the verdict. Oh and sympathizers of these deeds need to crawl under the table and pray for their heads of confusion.
edited for adding of words to verdict. Happy it is guilty -but not the justice of it. Oh, and Danny is guilty too....and the whole mess for protecting it. All in the name of SDA :horse: Just keep eating the "feed" and depositing it on the gound.
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Anyone know what paper this was in? This was no suprise to me- tho I did expect it to go until the last day....
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I received information a short time ago that a plea agreement has been reached in the Tommy Shelton sexual abuse cases currently pending in Virginia. According to sources, Tommy Ray Shelton will appear in court on Monday, July 19 in Fairfax County, Virginia and plead guilty to two counts of Custodial Indecent Liberties with two minors. Under the terms of this agreement, he will face no prison time but will be required to register as a sex offender, and will also receive probation for a length of time to be determined by the court.
To be clear, this will be two pleas of guilty, rather that pleas of no contest. Tommy Shelton will at long last be admitting that he did, in fact, commit the crimes he has been charged with. These are felony charges.
This will bring some closure, at least, to nearly 40 years of scandal and allegations surrounding Shelton's ministry, which has affected numerous victims over the years. It will be interesting to see the responses from those who have so vehemently defended him, while threatening, intimidating and slandering his victims.
As usual Duane, your slant on things shows you have learned well from pickle. In a case such as this, he would not be allowed to plead no contest. To say you are guilty is a technicality of the court in accepting this type of plea. At his age, with very limited financial resources and with his severe heart condition, I would do the same thing. In no way does it mean he is guilty of these charges.
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Oh my Sam, Did I just read that? :hot: :hot: :ROFL: If he wasn't guilty, why did he lay down like a bleeding lamb, and allow his victims to triumph? Quit spinning things Sam. You make yourself look like a fool.
I received information a short time ago that a plea agreement has been reached in the Tommy Shelton sexual abuse cases currently pending in Virginia. According to sources, Tommy Ray Shelton will appear in court on Monday, July 19 in Fairfax County, Virginia and plead guilty to two counts of Custodial Indecent Liberties with two minors. Under the terms of this agreement, he will face no prison time but will be required to register as a sex offender, and will also receive probation for a length of time to be determined by the court.
To be clear, this will be two pleas of guilty, rather that pleas of no contest. Tommy Shelton will at long last be admitting that he did, in fact, commit the crimes he has been charged with. These are felony charges.
This will bring some closure, at least, to nearly 40 years of scandal and allegations surrounding Shelton's ministry, which has affected numerous victims over the years. It will be interesting to see the responses from those who have so vehemently defended him, while threatening, intimidating and slandering his victims.
As usual Duane, your slant on things shows you have learned well from pickle. In a case such as this, he would not be allowed to plead no contest. To say you are guilty is a technicality of the court in accepting this type of plea. At his age, with very limited financial resources and with his severe heart condition, I would do the same thing. In no way does it mean he is guilty of these charges.
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Gregory, the Grand Jury didn't reduce the charges at all, from what I understand.
Actually the first reduction was at the hearing and now the charges have been reduced significantlyby the prosecutor to warrant no jail time. Obviously these cases were lacking in evidence and the past of both accusers would not have made for credible witnesses.
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Spin it all you want, Sam. Truth of the matter is Tommy Ray Shelton will be a convicted felon, and a convicted sex offender. End of story.
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Gregory, the Grand Jury didn't reduce the charges at all, from what I understand.
Actually the first reduction was at the hearing and now the charges have been reduced significantlyby the prosecutor to warrant no jail time. Obviously these cases were lacking in evidence and the past of both accusers would not have made for credible witnesses.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:That explains why Tommy's attorneys wanted a plea deal.
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As usual Duane, your slant on things shows you have learned well from pickle. In a case such as this, he would not be allowed to plead no contest. To say you are guilty is a technicality of the court in accepting this type of plea. At his age, with very limited financial resources and with his severe heart condition, I would do the same thing. In no way does it mean he is guilty of these charges.
Tommy IS guilty. I know that first hand. So do a lot of other people. Spin this all you want, but justice is finally going to be served, and there's nothing you or any of the other deniers can do about it. Deal with that.
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Gregory, the Grand Jury didn't reduce the charges at all, from what I understand.
Actually the first reduction was at the hearing and now the charges have been reduced significantlyby the prosecutor to warrant no jail time. Obviously these cases were lacking in evidence and the past of both accusers would not have made for credible witnesses.
At least the accusers did so under their real names, which is more than I can say for you. Grow up and realize that the jig is up, and Tommy Shelton is going to be a convicted, registered sex offender.
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Amen Duane. I totally agree with you Tommy Shelton is GUILTY AS CHARGED. He is a coward and a child molester. I know he has health problems but the low funds I would question. He ALWAYS had money to get so many things. My husband and I would oftentimes question where he got all his money to do and get all he did. So I don't buy that I think that if he does have money it isn't in his name or property it is either sold or not in his name now.
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Amen Duane. I totally agree with you Tommy Shelton is GUILTY AS CHARGED. He is a coward and a child molester. I know he has health problems but the low funds I would question. He ALWAYS had money to get so many things. My husband and I would oftentimes question where he got all his money to do and get all he did. So I don't buy that I think that if he does have money it isn't in his name or property it is either sold or not in his name now.
I really have no sympathy for how low his funds supposedly are. I don't have much money either, but then again, I keep my hands to myself. I don't have a trial to be concerned with.
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I am proud of the young men that has stood up for themselves and for all the children that could have been harmed by this EVIL man. The bottom line is he is now a Felon and has to register as a sex offender. If he had been innocent he would have never agreed to that. We all know that Tommy Shelton is not a humble man and has a hard time admitting guilt or the fact that he could ever make a mistake or be wrong. If the evidence against him wasn't so strong his lawyers would not have given up so easily. And as far as the person who posted that there were no credible witnesses. I know for a fact there was at least one credible witness. That is because I personally know one of them and know he is an upstanding citizen.
No wonder Tommy has had so many heart problems could you imagine living with all that guilt and knowing you used stories from the Bible to harm children. I don't know how he can forgive himself. You know when he lays his head down on his pillow at night he has to think about what he has done. I also think that it would be the first thing on his mind when he wakes up.
For all the people who believe Tommy is so innocent would you leave your son or grandson (if you have one) with him or let him teach your your son or grandson how to play the piano. I bet NONE OF YOU WOULD EVER PUT YOUR CHILD IN A SITUATION where they could and probably would be harmed. I know I would not!!
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I am proud of the young men that has stood up for themselves and for all the children that could have been harmed by this EVIL man. The bottom line is he is now a Felon and has to register as a sex offender. If he had been innocent he would have never agreed to that. We all know that Tommy Shelton is not a humble man and has a hard time admitting guilt or the fact that he could ever make a mistake or be wrong. If the evidence against him wasn't so strong his lawyers would not have given up so easily. And as far as the person who posted that there were no credible witnesses. I know for a fact there was at least one credible witness. That is because I personally know one of them and know he is an upstanding citizen.
No wonder Tommy has had so many heart problems could you imagine living with all that guilt and knowing you used stories from the Bible to harm children. I don't know how he can forgive himself. You know when he lays his head down on his pillow at night he has to think about what he has done. I also think that it would be the first thing on his mind when he wakes up.
For all the people who believe Tommy is so innocent would you leave your son or grandson (if you have one) with him or let him teach your your son or grandson how to play the piano. I bet NONE OF YOU WOULD EVER PUT YOUR CHILD IN A SITUATION where they could and probably would be harmed. I know I would not!!
:goodpost: :amen:
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A brand new poster sounds like they have a Vested interest to you??? ok... but based on what, Snoopy? Just their post below saying they are "thrilled"?
interesting... btw, I am not thrilled, either to hear this latest --if it's true, or to know others are thrilled. It just doesn't sit right with me.
Sounds like you have a vested interest in these cases. By the way, welcome to AdventTalk, waitingforjustice!
I was thrilled to find out that this man is finally being brought to justice.
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Based on my interpretation of the poster's statement, 3D. Last I checked I was entitled to have an opinion.
What's your point?
A brand new poster sounds like they have a Vested interest to you??? ok... but based on what, Snoopy? Just their post below?
interesting...
Sounds like you have a vested interest in these cases. By the way, welcome to AdventTalk, waitingforjustice!
I was thrilled to find out that this man is finally being brought to justice.
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Sure, you can have an opinion, as can we all. I didn't question what, I questioned why? But I am sure the new member will be very verbose without your help, they always are, so, never mind, and sorry to have asked.
Let's move on, ok?
Based on my interpretation of the poster's statement, 3D. Last I checked I was entitled to have an opinion.
What's your point?
A brand new poster sounds like they have a Vested interest to you??? ok... but based on what, Snoopy? Just their post below?
interesting...
Sounds like you have a vested interest in these cases. By the way, welcome to AdventTalk, waitingforjustice!
I was thrilled to find out that this man is finally being brought to justice.
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3D. Let me ask you this, are you saying that people who have been directly involved do not have the right to be "thrilled" that justice has finally been served?
I am sorry, but many people have waited a long time to finally see justice prevail. So, I disagree with you. Yes, you are right, it is a sad day for people who put their trust in this man. However, now maybe victims can move on and try to live their lives without worry anymore.
I suppose I don't see your point... Care to explain?
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A brand new poster sounds like they have a Vested interest to you??? ok... but based on what, Snoopy? Just their post below saying they are "thrilled"?
interesting... btw, I am not thrilled, either to hear this latest --if it's true, or to know others are thrilled. It just doesn't sit right with me.
No, I don't imagine it does. Kinda blows the whole "Tommy is innocent" argument to bits, huh?
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I received information a short time ago that a plea agreement has been reached in the Tommy Shelton sexual abuse cases currently pending in Virginia. According to sources, Tommy Ray Shelton will appear in court on Monday, July 19 in Fairfax County, Virginia and plead guilty to two counts of Custodial Indecent Liberties with two minors. Under the terms of this agreement, he will face no prison time but will be required to register as a sex offender, and will also receive probation for a length of time to be determined by the court.
To be clear, this will be two pleas of guilty, rather that pleas of no contest
hmmm... I admit, just as I did before when the charges against Tommy were revealed that this is distressing (if true), very, but I also find it curious that you and so many here accusing 3abn, know, or claim to know, all about this, when those at 3abn, and those defending them know nothing about it, and the hearing hasn't taken place, nor have any news sources reported this.
As before, those who aren't involved or in the know (3abn or me ....)will just have to wait for the court documents and the news in order to know what the real facts are.
This i will say and do not apologize to either party. IF TS is not guilty and pleads guilty to avoid a trial, expense and a greater charge, I consider that a lie.
If he is guilty when he earlier claimed he was innocent. That is also a lie.
Bottom line? I hate child abuse, and I hate lies.
I welcomed a trial as the facts would be known, and doubt they will be now if what is reported is true...
Sadly though, this case has nothing to do with Pickle's allegations against DS and 3ABN, or the lawsuit, and yet all here in my opinion (yet to be proved) will keep trying to make it so..
Why would I say this?
Well these allegations didn't exist when 3ABN hired TS. They didn't even exist when TS retired from 3ABN, they have nothing to do with DS or 3ABN! The courts already ruled this was all inadmissible in the lawsuit, and denied Pickles claims and motions to file them, but I am sure Pickle and co will attempt to prove different..
And I am sure posters here will also attempt to prove I have claimed differently in the past, despite my posts on record here.
Sigh... If so, I will be back...
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3D will you please explain your thought.... I previously posted this:
3D. Let me ask you this, are you saying that people who have been directly involved do not have the right to be "thrilled" that justice has finally been served?
I am sorry, but many people have waited a long time to finally see justice prevail. So, I disagree with you. Yes, you are right, it is a sad day for people who put their trust in this man. However, now maybe victims can move on and try to live their lives without worry anymore.
I suppose I don't see your point... Care to explain?
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Sadly though, this case has nothing to do with Pickle's allegations against DS and 3ABN, or the lawsuit, and yet all here in my opinion (yet to be proved) will keep trying to make it so..
Why would I say this?
Well these allegations didn't exist when 3ABN hired TS. They didn't even exist when TS retired from 3ABN, they have nothing to do with DS or 3ABN! The courts already ruled this was all inadmissible in the lawsuit, and denied Pickles claims and motions to file them, but I am sure Pickle and co will attempt to prove different..
So, I'm sure you can prove this.
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If I remember correctly, it was Cindy who used the term "distressing". Did you just out yourself? Why, yes, 3d, I do believe you did. Just did a search, and no where did you use that term (at least not under, 3d.)
--edited to add search find.--I received information a short time ago that a plea agreement has been reached in the Tommy Shelton sexual abuse cases currently pending in Virginia. According to sources, Tommy Ray Shelton will appear in court on Monday, July 19 in Fairfax County, Virginia and plead guilty to two counts of Custodial Indecent Liberties with two minors. Under the terms of this agreement, he will face no prison time but will be required to register as a sex offender, and will also receive probation for a length of time to be determined by the court.
To be clear, this will be two pleas of guilty, rather that pleas of no contest
hmmm... I admit, just as I did before when the charges against Tommy were revealed that this is distressing (if true), very, but I also find it curious that you and so many here accusing 3abn, know, or claim to know, all about this, when those at 3abn, and those defending them know nothing about it, and the hearing hasn't taken place, nor have any news sources reported this.
As before, those who aren't involved or in the know (3abn or me ....)will just have to wait for the court documents and the news in order to know what the real facts are.
This i will say and do not apologize to either party. IF TS is not guilty and pleads guilty to avoid a trial, expense and a greater charge, I consider that a lie.
If he is guilty when he earlier claimed he was innocent. That is also a lie.
Bottom line? I hate child abuse, and I hate lies.
I welcomed a trial as the facts would be known, and doubt they will be now if what is reported is true...
Sadly though, this case has nothing to do with Pickle's allegations against DS and 3ABN, or the lawsuit, and yet all here in my opinion (yet to be proved) will keep trying to make it so..
Why would I say this?
Well these allegations didn't exist when 3ABN hired TS. They didn't even exist when TS retired from 3ABN, they have nothing to do with DS or 3ABN! The courts already ruled this was all inadmissible in the lawsuit, and denied Pickles claims and motions to file them, but I am sure Pickle and co will attempt to prove different..
And I am sure posters here will also attempt to prove I have claimed differently in the past, despite my posts on record here.
Sigh... If so, I will be back...
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Posted on the other forum: Let me remind you who Breezy is, she is Junebug. She has declared over and over that a jury would find Tommy Ray innocent. She also believes that sex with a minor is OK, as long as the minor consents.This is a woman, by her own admission, that works directly with children as a "piano teacher." As you read her post keep in mind, that of course she would think Tommy is innocent because, by her own accord, these victims consented.
She post the following, along with the spin she always adds.
Tommy Shelton
by Breezy » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:25 pm UTC
Tommy Shelton has accepted a plea bargain when there was no other alternative that was acceptable. First off, even if innocent (which he is innocent) he could very well be put in prison anyway, which we know he would never live through because of his serious heart condition. I doubt he would last a week in prison. It was a very difficult decision, but it was decided that the only thing they could do was accept the plea bargain with a guilty plea/put on sexual offender list. They were hoping to get a plea bargain that would be "no contest" since he is innocent of the charges, and not having his name on a sex-offender list but the prosecution would not agree to this.
The only way to stay out of prison was to say he was guilty and to allow his name be put on the list. How sad is this. No money, broken in health--only just wanting to be with his family. He is retirement age anyway and so this was the best deal offered.
We believe this is an answer to prayer. God is so good. He knows the hearts of all involved. We know those on AT will NEVER accept this explanation but it doesn't matter. It is the truth. God knows it is the TRUTH!
--edited to add more thought.--
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Let me be clear: I do not have any knowledge related to the claimed plea bargain. Any comment that I make is based upon the idea that the statements related to the plea bargain are accurate.
Guilt: In this context, guilt and innocence are legal terms. Guilt in this context is determined by a competent court making a finding of guilt. By accepting a plea bargain that involves pleading guilty the court finds the individual guilty. If TS pleads guiltly in a plea bargain and the court accepts that and finds him guilty he will be guilty. That conviction will go with him for the rest of his life.
Typically the defense takes a plea bargain because they negotiate for a better outcome than they believe they could get in a trial. The other side goes for a plea bargain for some of the same reasons and to spare the expense of a trail or to save having some people tesitfy at trial--often done in a abuse case.
The defense attorney is required under ethics to act as an officer of the court. Under these rules of ethics the defense attorney cannot allow the client to plead guilty unless the client can be convinced they are guilty of something. NOTE: If the client insests, the attorney can state for rthe record that the client is pleading against advice.
By the same token, the judge who accepts the plea of guilty is required to determine that the person pleading guilty understands the consequences of the plea and honestly believes he/she is guilty in a legal sense of the crime to which there is a guilty plea.
IF TS takes that plea, no one can make a valid case for innocence.
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Well Sam,
You can take this to the end all you can and want. But a simple fact is this, you have no sympathy for what was done to the victims. But the greatest thing is that ole child molester TS is going to his grave knowing what his life was given to and wasted for his devilish possessed desires. Now how ya going to change that fact??
Just look at his picture and he is a evil sick man that was caused by his sick mind. You know why I know where he is going is because repentance is not only to God but to his victims and he went way over the line of value on his ability to recompense for what he has done to the victims. There is no recompense to "Sorry Charlie"
Ok DS, shell it out somemore. Believe me it is not going to stop at TS.... till it is all paid. All the spending, Keeping evil brother with donor money, all the fun, all the nice cars, all the women, all the lies, all the :horse: all the feed. ..la te da and they fired their guns and the Shelton's began a runnin, down thru the Briars and the brambles where the :rabbit: wouldnt' go. They ran so fast that the :beagle: couldn't catch them, now not as many as once before, sooooo again,we fired our guns and the "Sheltons" kept a runnin clear to the Gulf of Medeco. (Olle Spill that is) lol. watch and see.
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tinka...you crack me up!!
Some day I'd like to shake your hand!!
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Can the victims change their mind before the 19th and withdraw the deal?
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No.
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TS can change his mind.
The judge can refuse to accept the plea deal--it sometimes happens, but not often.
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Tommy would be stupid if he did.... but considering the source.....
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Can the victims change their mind before the 19th and withdraw the deal?
No.
[
That is not true, Gregory, and you know it.
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Using your own logic Gregory, how is it fair that Tommy can change his mind, but the victims cannot? I believe you should do some better research.
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Bottom line? I hate child abuse, and I hate lies.
We have something in common, then. Super.
Sadly though, this case has nothing to do with Pickle's allegations against DS and 3ABN, or the lawsuit, and yet all here in my opinion (yet to be proved) will keep trying to make it so..
Not so.
Well these allegations didn't exist when 3ABN hired TS.
The allegations go back to at least the early 1980's, before 3ABN was founded.
They didn't even exist when TS retired from 3ABN, they have nothing to do with DS or 3ABN!
The allegations of one of the two alleged victims in Virginia were announced by Glenn Dryden in late 2006, and I reported that announcement, which then led to Danny's threats of a defamation lawsuit. It was not until after that announcement and report that Danny staged that 20+ minute globally televised tribute for alleged pedophile Tommy Shelton on Dec. 31, 2006.
Additionally, Dryden's 2003 action items asked Tommy to apologize to the Dunn Loring church for deceit and inappropriate behavior, and Danny left a message on the Ezra Church of God answering machine in response to those action items.
The courts already ruled this was all inadmissible in the lawsuit, and denied Pickles claims and motions to file them, but I am sure Pickle and co will attempt to prove different..
I think you are confused. No court has yet determined that materials pertaining to the allegations against Tommy Shelton are inadmissible. What was determined is that we could not add two exhibits to what we had already filed, which we could only do with leave of court since briefing was already complete.
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Gregory:
A plea offer is never guaranteed. Plea bargaining is negotiation between the prosecutor and the defense attorney. The Supreme Court has held that a prosecutor can withdraw a plea offer at any time including on the courthouse steps, in the courtroom, during a recess of the court before the matter has been adjudicated, and even after the defendant has accepted the offer.
If you look it up, you can see that countless times the prosecution has withdrawn plea deals.
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tinka...you crack me up!!
Some day I'd like to shake your hand!!
(smile) would like to meet you too. :pals:
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Can the victims change their mind before the 19th and withdraw the deal?
No.
[
That is not true, Gregory, and you know it.
I have never claimed to be correct 100% of the time. I only call it as I see (understand) it and when I am shown to be wrong I acknowledge it. As I understand it, a plea bargain is between thre prosecutor, the defense and the judge. Prior to the decision either the prosecutor or the defense may withdraw the plea bargain and go to trial. Typically the judge has the power to reject the plea bargain. I am not awarde of the victims having the power to quash the plea bargain.
l acknowledge that Virginia law would govern, rather than Federal law. If my statement was incorrect, please inform me as to the basis for telling me that I was wrong. In any case, I am certainly not aware of being wrong.
Perhaps Virginia law allows such.
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Gregory:
A plea offer is never guaranteed. Plea bargaining is negotiation between the prosecutor and the defense attorney. The Supreme Court has held that a prosecutor can withdraw a plea offer at any time including on the courthouse steps, in the courtroom, during a recess of the court before the matter has been adjudicated, and even after the defendant has accepted the offer.
If you look it up, you can see that countless times the prosecution has withdrawn plea deals.
I agree 100% with this statement. You will note that I only stated that the vistims could not quash the plea bargain. Then I qualified it bky sayin that Virginia law would govern. NOTE: My reference here includes further comments made after your first rebuttal to my first statement.
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Using your own logic Gregory, how is it fair that Tommy can change his mind, but the victims cannot? I believe you should do some better research.
The courts claim to rule on the basis of the law, not on the basis of fairness.
Virginia law may allow the victims to inform the judge as to how the judge should rule. As I have said, the juge can typically reject the plea bargain. But, even if the victims may inform the judge of their wishes the decision is that of the judge.
Again, please enlighten me as to how I am wrong of the basis of law and/or rulings of a court that applies in this case.
NOTE: As I use the word "law" here I reference both case law and statute law.
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Somehow I have a notion the local prosecutor will have a certain idea how the laws are applied in the state of Virginia. And that s/he will inform the victims involved in this case how things usually function. I doubt that prosecutor gets all the essential information by reading opinions expressed by members of AT. But certain members here could be better informed than others, not the least if they are involved in that particular case. Who knows?
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Gregory:
So technically the victims could as the prosecution to withdraw the plea deal, just as Tommy could as his attorneys too. Correct?
Can the victims change their mind before the 19th and withdraw the deal?
No.
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That is not true, Gregory, and you know it.
I have never claimed to be correct 100% of the time. I only call it as I see (understand) it and when I am shown to be wrong I acknowledge it. As I understand it, a plea bargain is between thre prosecutor, the defense and the judge. Prior to the decision either the prosecutor or the defense may withdraw the plea bargain and go to trial. Typically the judge has the power to reject the plea bargain. I am not awarde of the victims having the power to quash the plea bargain.
l acknowledge that Virginia law would govern, rather than Federal law. If my statement was incorrect, please inform me as to the basis for telling me that I was wrong. In any case, I am certainly not aware of being wrong.
Perhaps Virginia law allows such.
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Samuelthomas said:
So technically the victims could as the prosecution to withdraw the plea deal, just as Tommy could as his attorneys too. Correct?
Perhaps I do not understand your question? As I understand your question, the answer is a clear No.
The prosecution of a crime (as opposed to a civil case) is independent of the wishes of the victims.
NOTE: If a victim refuses to testify the prosecution may be left with an inability to prosecute due to a lack of evidence.
The victims do not decide whether or not to prosecute. That decision is made by others depending upon the circumstances and the applicable law.
In the quotation above I understand you to say as follows: "So technically the victims could as the prosecution withdraw the plea deal, just as Tommy could as his attorneys too. Correct?" NOTE: To help me understand it, I have removed the word "to."
Based upon the above understanding, the victims are not the prosecution. Basic principles of U.S. law tell us that the victim cannot prosecute a criminal (as opposed to a civil) case. The decision to prosecute, under U.S. law must be objective. Victims are not objective. Victims only provide evidence.
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I have been looking around on the internet and found a case where a man was charged in the death of a 12 year old girl in Virginia and agreed not to contest first degree murder charges. After requesting a psychological evaluation and being denied, the man immediately asked the judge to vacate the plea agreement, saying that the prosecution had overstated the evidence. The judge denied the motion.
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Gregory:
I am asking if a victim could request the prosecutor to withdraw the plea, if the defendant can. My understaning is, and trust me I have court experience. That the victim has the right to agree or disagree before the plea is submitted to the defendant, so why wouldn't the victims be able to ask the prosecution to withdraw, if they have a change of heart? That makes no sense to me. Samuelthomas said:
So technically the victims could as the prosecution to withdraw the plea deal, just as Tommy could as his attorneys too. Correct?
Perhaps I do not understand your question? As I understand your question, the answer is a clear No.
The prosecution of a crime (as opposed to a civil case) is independent of the wishes of the victims.
NOTE: If a victim refuses to testify the prosecution may be left with an inability to prosecute due to a lack of evidence.
The victims do not decide whether or not to prosecute. That decision is made by others depending upon the circumstances and the applicable law.
In the quotation above I understand you to say as follows: "So technically the victims could as the prosecution withdraw the plea deal, just as Tommy could as his attorneys too. Correct?" NOTE: To help me understand it, I have removed the word "to."
Based upon the above understanding, the victims are not the prosecution. Basic principles of U.S. law tell us that the victim cannot prosecute a criminal (as opposed to a civil) case. The decision to prosecute, under U.S. law must be objective. Victims are not objective. Victims only provide evidence.
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Duane:
You are correct. The final decision lies with the judge. Legal issues are always complex and simplistic answers always have exceptions.
The judge can refuse to allow a party to a plea bargain to withdraw from that plea bargain.
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Duane:
You are correct. The final decision lies with the judge. Legal issues are always complex and simplistic answers always have exceptions.
The judge can refuse to allow a party to a plea bargain to withdraw from that plea bargain.
And I think that is where the confusion lies. That's a good way to put it. The question is who are the parties to the plea bargain. Since this is a criminal case, the parties are the state of Virginia and Tommy Shelton. To answer ST's question, it sounds like the victims could indeed request that the state file a motion to withdraw the plea agreement, but it wouldn't necessarily happen.
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Samuel
It could be that with the "guilty" plea first agreed will give all the leeway for the judge to take all the liberties of justice for the best results. A case close to us just gave 25 years to a first time offender of not the actual act but putting a child porno Picture on the internet. He did not do what TS did -the actual act bodily. I believe the judge will take all into consideration of what happened to many for many years. Lets see what he does with this. To me the mother's letter was enough as she was a witness. and I believe there is a whole lot of "shaken" gonin on!!
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Samuelthomas asked:
I am asking if a victim could request the prosecutor to withdraw the plea, if the defendant can. My understaning is, and trust me I have court experience. That the victim has the right to agree or disagree before the plea is submitted to the defendant, so why wouldn't the victims be able to ask the prosecution to withdraw, if they have a change of heart? That makes no sense to me.
1) Of course the victim can ask the prosecutor to act in any manner that the victim wishes to do. The prosecutor does not have to follow the wishes of the victim unless, as I have stated, a refusal to testify results in a lack of evidence.
2) The governing law is most typically the laws of the State. NOTE: In a Federal case it is Federal law.
3) In some States the victim has the right to make his/her wishes known to the judge. But, the judge typically dos not have to follow the wishes of the victim unless that results in a lack of evidence.
4) I am only writing in general terms. I am not knowledgable of Virginia law which appears to be the applicable law in this case.
5) Frankly, as this conversation is developing it looks to me like you and I are in greater agareement than I thought in the beginning. :)
6) Honest people can differ and yet agree on some points. They can also discuss civilally. I thank you for doing so. I appreciate talking to you even when you take me on. :)
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Duane said:
And I think that is where the confusion lies. That's a good way to put it. The question is who are the parties to the plea bargain. Since this is a criminal case, the parties are the state of Virginia and Tommy Shelton. To answer ST's question, it sounds like the victims could indeed request that the state file a motion to withdraw the plea agreement, but it wouldn't necessarily happen.
The law can be confusing. Simplistic responses can be confusing. I can be confusing in my responses. :)
You have made a good response.
In the discussion that is taking place, perhaps people reading this are getting a better understanding of the issues?
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Yes, I agree. I do see your point, I guess my question was if the victim could ask the prosecutor, and it seems we agree on that point.
I did find this, and as you stated the victim does have a voice, but not a veto in the matter.
http://www.ojp.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin7/3.html
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Duane said:
And I think that is where the confusion lies. That's a good way to put it. The question is who are the parties to the plea bargain. Since this is a criminal case, the parties are the state of Virginia and Tommy Shelton. To answer ST's question, it sounds like the victims could indeed request that the state file a motion to withdraw the plea agreement, but it wouldn't necessarily happen.
The law can be confusing. Simplistic responses can be confusing. I can be confusing in my responses. :)
You have made a good response.
In the discussion that is taking place, perhaps people reading this are getting a better understanding of the issues?
I know that I am getting a clearer understanding. When you talked about the "parties" to the plea agreement that's when it clicked for me.
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Well, time for me to head to church. I'll be back on this afternoon to check all the latest developments. ;D
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Have a blessed day of worshiping God.
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Yes, I agree. I do see your point, I guess my question was if the victim could ask the prosecutor, and it seems we agree on that point.
I did find this, and as you stated the victim does have a voice, but not a veto in the matter.
http://www.ojp.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin7/3.html
Excellent statement of the issues. I encourage you-all to click on the URL and read the document.
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I believe Echo has it right, Echo seems to be the only "voice of reason" over at that pitiful excuse for a forum.
Re: Tommy Shelton
by Echo » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:23 pm UTC
Option number three would be to simply go to trial and allow the jury to consider the evidence. If he is confident in his innocence why not simply trust his future to the Lord and go to trial? If I was elderly and had a bad heart but knew I was innocent, there is NO WAY I would accept a plea bargain that would keep me out of prison but require that I lie about my guilt.Echo
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:05 am UTC
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I believe Echo has it right, Echo seems to be the only "voice of reason" over at that pitiful excuse for a forum.
Re: Tommy Shelton
by Echo » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:23 pm UTC
Option number three would be to simply go to trial and allow the jury to consider the evidence. If he is confident in his innocence why not simply trust his future to the Lord and go to trial? If I was elderly and had a bad heart but knew I was innocent, there is NO WAY I would accept a plea bargain that would keep me out of prison but require that I lie about my guilt.Echo
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:05 am UTC
Yes, I saw that. Watch, though, how quickly they will turn on Echo now.
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Yes, I agree. I do see your point, I guess my question was if the victim could ask the prosecutor, and it seems we agree on that point.
I did find this, and as you stated the victim does have a voice, but not a veto in the matter.
http://www.ojp.gov/ovc/publications/bulletins/legalseries/bulletin7/3.html
Excellent statement of the issues. I encourage you-all to click on the URL and read the document.
I believe that (statement) explains it pretty well, Gregory. Again, thank you for the discussion. As you said earlier,it shows that people can disagree, in a polite civil manner, and eventually find common ground as I believe we did here.
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ST, we were probabaly close all along. Differences may have been more in communication than in substance. I do not always communicate clearly and I sometimes do not correctly understand what someone else has said.
GM
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By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal, his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair. It's a sad fact that 63 years of this man's life was wasted on what? Seriously, touching boys, and doing lude acts of the devil, is not an accomplishment to be proud of. Sorry, but true.
By the way his wife should be ashamed so should the whole Shelton family.
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:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Re: Tommy Shelton
by proffaberf451 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:43 pm UTC
There are numerous options here. What most don't know is what the actual conversations are that are occurring between the legal teams for both sides. It is interesting that Duane Clem speaks with such a voice of certainty, remembering that he isn't involved in this case other then at the level he has self-injected into it. How does he have the immediate inside track to information such as a plea agreement? He has probably become GAJ/RJP's right hand henchman and we know that this case is only taking place because GAJ/RJP have been working hard for years to convince, cajole, maybe even pay individuals (the money probably coming from the so-called doctor from Norway) to "come forward" and make accusations against Tommy that would lead a prosecutor to file charges.
IF the plea agreement is as presented by these individuals not a part of this case, it is interesting that no one has mentioned that this keeps the "victims" off the stand where their integrity and character could be defined so the jury would have all the marbles to consider in rendering a verdict. There is much information floating around that the two individuals have a record of lying and making false accusations. That doesn't mean they are lying here - but unless they can be accepted as credible their testimony would have to be weighed against their characters. A plea agreement is more likely an advantageous course of action for the prosecution. The two sides trade the information they have and the prosecution is well aware that their "witnesses" might very well harm the case as opposed to providing the "last straw."
It is conceivable that going to trial would be the best course of action for Tommy. It would provide him the opportunity to dispel the accusations against him. However, one never can be assured of the integrity of the judge or the jury and certainly a defense has to consider the potential for the accusers to commit perjury and seeing the jury be taken in by the same. All trials are like a chess game and you have to play to the strongest course of action to lead to the most palatable result. In looking at the options Tommy and his team had to consider all the possible out comes.
- A conviction with jail time, probation, registration as a sex offender
- A conviction with jail time and probation
- A conviction with jail time and registration as a sex offender
- A conviction with jail time
- A conviction with probation and registration as a sex offender
- A conviction with probation
- No conviction
My guess is that prosecution, which doesn't represent the victims at all, but the state, set it's sights on the first choice. Of course, they also knew that the chances they would get that as the outcome were not real significant. They they looked at what they thought they could get from a plea agreement. The prosecution doesn't want to go to trial because it is too risky - they could completely lose. They need to secure some kind of punishment so they offer what they think they can scare the accused into. There is a psychological advantage for the prosecution in a criminal trial because the defendant can win something from the prosecution, as would happen in a civil trial. So, Tommy's team had to weigh the realities of the current moment: Can Tommy's health stand a trial? Can Tommy pay for a trial? Does Tommy want to tie up his immediate future in a trial? Answer those questions provides a basis for deciding whether or not to accept a plea agreement. Nothing is set in stone until both sides appear in court and make their plea agreement known to the judge. Even at that point, the judge can order the case to trial any way by rejecting the agreement.
The interesting twist over on RJP's den of deception (aka Advent Talk) is the newly blossoming talk of a civil suit, interesting because the alleged "victims" appearing there have asserted that they just wanted justice and not to destroy Tommy and his family. Now, it appears as if (probably as a result of prompting from GAJ/RJP) the dollar signs have hypnotized them. No longer do they want justice, they want money, a very sad development considering that they claim the title Christian, and deride any one who doesn't buy into their swill. It appears the true nature of their character has surfaced - selfishness. Their accusations were never about justice, never about putting to rest old demons and moving forward (which, if they had sought God long ago would have happened), this action was always about revenge (for GAJ/RJP) and money for the others. If their is a civil action, I wonder what percentage of the take will go to GAJ/RJP?
A very sad day for God as he watches these claimed followers of His behave like hyenas feeding on their fellow brother in Christ.proffaberf451
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:03 am UTC Top
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Re: Tommy Shelton
by Cynthia » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:43 pm UTC
Interesting, from all. My opinion is that TS should plead innocent, but admit I don't know all. I do tend to think God's people need to walk forward in faith and never in fear. We may not always see what is ahead of us, but he always does, and is the best guide.
I also think it very interesting and significant though that the Prosecutor has repeatedly changed the charges (ages, dates) and reduced the charges. It has gone from sodomy, (victims statement didn't support that) to molestation to now it is just a verbal proposition. The facts and statements against Tommy, if true shouldn't be subject to so much change in my opinion. This leads me to conclude the prosecution's case and the plea bargain offered after allegedly consulting the victims, is not so strong or assured as they have made out. Just my opinion
In any case, I do not consider adventtalk the defining edge as far as reporting the facts goes and after reading all their posts and gloating and talk of civil suits, and attempts to bring DS and 3ABN into it all, wonder whether they aren't just counting their chickens before they are hatched. Certainly their agenda and goal is being loudly proclaimed. There is still a week to go before the scheduled court date. I guess we wait and see...
Those are big words coming from Cindy Conard and Greg Thompson. Who have vehmently defended Danny's civil suit. I guess you all don't like it when the tables are turned, huh?
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I object to Greg Thompson's false and defamatory statement that I have tried to convince, cajole, or pay people to falsely state that they were molested by Tommy Shelton, and I demand that he immediately correct his false statement.
If my request is directed to the wrong individual because Prof. Faber is not Greg Thompson, then Cindy or Prof. Faber can tell me whom I should direct this request to.
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To be clear this was written over at Cindy's devilish site. It was posted by Proffaber (Greg Thompson.)
RJP at AT wrote:
I object to Greg Thompson's false and defamatory statement that I have tried to convince, cajole, or pay people to falsely state that they were molested by Tommy Shelton, and I demand that he immediately correct his false statement.
If my request is directed to the wrong individual because Prof. Faber is not Greg Thompson, then Cindy or Prof. Faber can tell me whom I should direct this request to.
It is interesting that RJP doesn't learn his lesson about making assumptions- he keeps doing it over and over again to his own detriment. I would guess that if Mr. Thompson were writing over here he could make the same demand about false statements against Mr. Pickle and would have a ton of evidence to make his case (too bad his latest protege over there is accepting his assumptions making practices).
It is also rather pathetic that RJP is known for taking offense to statements about himself, but has established that he should never be held in account for his defamatory statements, lies, misleadings, misstatements, judicious editing, etc. When he doesn't get his way he questions peoples character, their spiritual conviction, and anything else he can contrive in order to attack and marginalize those who disagree because he doesn't want to truth to be known, it would ruin his infamy.
For what it's worth, if I were Mr. Thompson, I'd respond to RJP by challenging him to publicly deny any involvement in this case - any at all. That denial would have to state that he has (since the first day of his involvement in ALL things 3ABN):
1. Never encouraged anyone to file a complaint against Tommy Shelton and that would include any form of verbal encouragement to do so, even merely asking, "Did you think about filing a complaint?' "Have you thought about filing a complaint?" "Have you thought about your responsibility to others?" or any other question that would have put pressure on an individual to consider filing a complaint or lead them to decide to "speak-up." RJP is notorious for couching his accusations as questions in an attempt to avoid having to take responsibility for the intent of his words, thus would argue that asking questions is innocuous.
2. At no time, ever spoken with the investigating detective, his/her assistant, or anyone at the police department running the investigation.
3. At no time, ever spoken with the prosecution, the prosecutions staff, or an employee of the court about ANY aspect of the case.
4. At no time, taken an alleged victim out to eat (which could be construed as being paid) while doing his "research."
5. At no time, ever spoken with any of his cohorts developing strategy on how to insure a case was brought against Tommy Shelton.
If he can deny every one of these unequivocally, the if I were Mr. Thompson I would apologize.
However, RJP can't deny each and every one of these points - it is a fact known by a significant number of people that he has involved himself, in more than one way mentioned above. Maybe if RJP wants an apology he should start by not being evasive and dishonest himself and attempting to create the perception on his site that he hasn't been involved. I don't expect that to happen.
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Now, Tinka, She has already BEEN living with it the entire time. I have not read where she left him for any period of time(which is just amazing to me, 'cuz, fact is he prefers young boys to grown women. I would not feel the need to stay, ok?!! He is just plan nasty!!! Ooops sorry......). Plus, has he had a job/congregation since then? Who picked him up. Did he have to leave a congregation for the position at 3ABN? Girl, she been home with him everyda for a while now. LOL!!!
Hmmm, didn't I state that he would plead "guilty". Now...what does he pay?? Staying in the house "with his clothes on"?? I felt he needed a change of cloths for his deeds. Don't tell me there was not "persuasion" over this. I figured it long time ago. His guilty plea for "flee" for now will get him nothing but hell for justice on judgment day with that sick corrupted mind that for years never changed. Find any one that ever changed?? Nope their mind was seared in their first deed of black evil.
Just think wiffee will have him under her feet all day. :ROFL: Can anyone imagine living with that evil everyday of your life?? You become what you live with!!.....So be it. or should I say You are what you choose. That is why I have no sympathy but disgust for the "guilty" and the sympathizers. I am glad that is over but not happy with the verdict. Oh and sympathizers of these deeds need to crawl under the table and pray for their heads of confusion.
edited for adding of words to verdict. Happy it is guilty -but not the justice of it. Oh, and Danny is guilty too....and the whole mess for protecting it. All in the name of SDA :horse: Just keep eating the "feed" and depositing it on the gound.
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Sam, Sam, Sam....I would not do the same thing! If you know you are telling the truth of your innocence, then you stand on God's Word that He will be your lawyer in the courtroom. You would really admit to guilt when you were innocent, really?!! I mean, really?!!
Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting. For all the reasons already stated, neither side wanted to go to trial. This by no means makes TS in any way, shape or form innocent of the charges.
As usual Duane, your slant on things shows you have learned well from pickle. In a case such as this, he would not be allowed to plead no contest. To say you are guilty is a technicality of the court in accepting this type of plea. At his age, with very limited financial resources and with his severe heart condition, I would do the same thing. In no way does it mean he is guilty of these charges.
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Looks to me like phishing. :o
To be clear this was written over at Cindy's devilish site. It was posted by Proffaber (Greg Thompson.)
RJP at AT wrote:
I object to Greg Thompson's false and defamatory statement that I have tried to convince, cajole, or pay people to falsely state that they were molested by Tommy Shelton, and I demand that he immediately correct his false statement.
If my request is directed to the wrong individual because Prof. Faber is not Greg Thompson, then Cindy or Prof. Faber can tell me whom I should direct this request to.
It is interesting that RJP doesn't learn his lesson about making assumptions- he keeps doing it over and over again to his own detriment. I would guess that if Mr. Thompson were writing over here he could make the same demand about false statements against Mr. Pickle and would have a ton of evidence to make his case (too bad his latest protege over there is accepting his assumptions making practices).
It is also rather pathetic that RJP is known for taking offense to statements about himself, but has established that he should never be held in account for his defamatory statements, lies, misleadings, misstatements, judicious editing, etc. When he doesn't get his way he questions peoples character, their spiritual conviction, and anything else he can contrive in order to attack and marginalize those who disagree because he doesn't want to truth to be known, it would ruin his infamy.
For what it's worth, if I were Mr. Thompson, I'd respond to RJP by challenging him to publicly deny any involvement in this case - any at all. That denial would have to state that he has (since the first day of his involvement in ALL things 3ABN):
1. Never encouraged anyone to file a complaint against Tommy Shelton and that would include any form of verbal encouragement to do so, even merely asking, "Did you think about filing a complaint?' "Have you thought about filing a complaint?" "Have you thought about your responsibility to others?" or any other question that would have put pressure on an individual to consider filing a complaint or lead them to decide to "speak-up." RJP is notorious for couching his accusations as questions in an attempt to avoid having to take responsibility for the intent of his words, thus would argue that asking questions is innocuous.
2. At no time, ever spoken with the investigating detective, his/her assistant, or anyone at the police department running the investigation.
3. At no time, ever spoken with the prosecution, the prosecutions staff, or an employee of the court about ANY aspect of the case.
4. At no time, taken an alleged victim out to eat (which could be construed as being paid) while doing his "research."
5. At no time, ever spoken with any of his cohorts developing strategy on how to insure a case was brought against Tommy Shelton.
If he can deny every one of these unequivocally, the if I were Mr. Thompson I would apologize.
However, RJP can't deny each and every one of these points - it is a fact known by a significant number of people that he has involved himself, in more than one way mentioned above. Maybe if RJP wants an apology he should start by not being evasive and dishonest himself and attempting to create the perception on his site that he hasn't been involved. I don't expect that to happen.
:o
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I can't really speak for them, but maybe maybe what they mean is finally the victims of TS get some sense of closure. Somebody finally believes them. Somebody is not blaming them for the abuse. To finally hear TS admit to his wrongs and pay for them. His victims have been lving with the nightmare and having it affect EVERY single aspect of their lives since TS first said the first inappropriate comment to them, while TS seemed to have moved on with his life virtually unscathed. Yes, 3D, that sense of relief, might be described as being "thrilled".
Just to expand upon this also. Do you and the other "Defenders" know that you all continued the cycle of TS abuse by your actions? It maybe that you only meant to defend TS, but inadvertently you did further victimized these young men. I am basically talking about the other victims, except Duane. You all meant o thurt his feelings each and every time you got opportunity.............and that further victimized his.......Well, you attempted, but I am almost sure that Duane, through the restoring power of Jesus Christ was no longer victim, but victor.........Am I right about it, Duane?
A brand new poster sounds like they have a Vested interest to you??? ok... but based on what, Snoopy? Just their post below saying they are "thrilled"?
interesting... btw, I am not thrilled, either to hear this latest --if it's true, or to know others are thrilled. It just doesn't sit right with me.
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Looks to me like phishing. :o
To be clear this was written over at Cindy's devilish site. It was posted by Proffaber (Greg Thompson.)
RJP at AT wrote:
I object to Greg Thompson's false and defamatory statement that I have tried to convince, cajole, or pay people to falsely state that they were molested by Tommy Shelton, and I demand that he immediately correct his false statement.
If my request is directed to the wrong individual because Prof. Faber is not Greg Thompson, then Cindy or Prof. Faber can tell me whom I should direct this request to.
It is interesting that RJP doesn't learn his lesson about making assumptions- he keeps doing it over and over again to his own detriment. I would guess that if Mr. Thompson were writing over here he could make the same demand about false statements against Mr. Pickle and would have a ton of evidence to make his case (too bad his latest protege over there is accepting his assumptions making practices).
It is also rather pathetic that RJP is known for taking offense to statements about himself, but has established that he should never be held in account for his defamatory statements, lies, misleadings, misstatements, judicious editing, etc. When he doesn't get his way he questions peoples character, their spiritual conviction, and anything else he can contrive in order to attack and marginalize those who disagree because he doesn't want to truth to be known, it would ruin his infamy.
For what it's worth, if I were Mr. Thompson, I'd respond to RJP by challenging him to publicly deny any involvement in this case - any at all. That denial would have to state that he has (since the first day of his involvement in ALL things 3ABN):
1. Never encouraged anyone to file a complaint against Tommy Shelton and that would include any form of verbal encouragement to do so, even merely asking, "Did you think about filing a complaint?' "Have you thought about filing a complaint?" "Have you thought about your responsibility to others?" or any other question that would have put pressure on an individual to consider filing a complaint or lead them to decide to "speak-up." RJP is notorious for couching his accusations as questions in an attempt to avoid having to take responsibility for the intent of his words, thus would argue that asking questions is innocuous.
2. At no time, ever spoken with the investigating detective, his/her assistant, or anyone at the police department running the investigation.
3. At no time, ever spoken with the prosecution, the prosecutions staff, or an employee of the court about ANY aspect of the case.
4. At no time, taken an alleged victim out to eat (which could be construed as being paid) while doing his "research."
5. At no time, ever spoken with any of his cohorts developing strategy on how to insure a case was brought against Tommy Shelton.
If he can deny every one of these unequivocally, the if I were Mr. Thompson I would apologize.
However, RJP can't deny each and every one of these points - it is a fact known by a significant number of people that he has involved himself, in more than one way mentioned above. Maybe if RJP wants an apology he should start by not being evasive and dishonest himself and attempting to create the perception on his site that he hasn't been involved. I don't expect that to happen.
:o
Yes, they just can't except defeat. It must be hard for them seeing that they have been vehmently supporting him for years now. Now, he is going to be a convicted Sex offender. So, the only thing they think they can do, is keep defending. It's sick really, but not suprising. The Christian thing for them to do would be to appologize, but they are bound to their "regime." They must remain loyal to Danny, their leader.
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If I am not mistaken, ST, for the victims to change their minds, they would have to say that they purgered themselves when they first reported the crime, and any subsequent depostions. So at this point, even if the victims did not want to cooperate anyhlonger with authorities, it is of no consequence. The police hae already done their own investigation which was began by and includes the the victims complaints and testimonies. But basically they no longer need their cooperation, especially for a plea bargain. It might have gotten a bit more difficult, though, had they gone to trial.
It is kind of like the authorities no longer "need" a victims copperation to prosecute for domestic abuse. They can move forward and "compel" the victim to testify, if even as a hostile witness.
Using your own logic Gregory, how is it fair that Tommy can change his mind, but the victims cannot? I believe you should do some better research.
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To be clear this was written over at Cindy's devilish site. It was posted by Proffaber (Greg Thompson.)
It appears that Greg Thompson is trying to change the subject. I specifically demanded that he retract his false and defamatory statement that I convinced, cajoled, or paid people to falsely accuse Tommy. He has not addressed the point I raised.
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Bob, if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath :ROFL:
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Re: Tommy Shelton
by Greg Thompson » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:23 am UTC
If it helps, Robert can wait a long time, because I am not apologizing for something I never said.
Nice try, Greg or Proffaber. These people are stupid, I'm serious. The funny thing, is Greg just made an account over there, just to say that?? MHM, we believe that, just like we believe Tommy is innocent. Greg, some of us was born in the night, but it sure wasn't last night. Oh, by the way is your father willing to appologize to the victims, for calling them liars? We all noticed the fact that it came to light that he aborted his own baby. He didn't like did he? No more than people appreciated him calling them liars.
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Now, Tinka, She has already BEEN living with it the entire time. I have not read where she left him for any period of time(which is just amazing to me, 'cuz, fact is he prefers young boys to grown women. I would not feel the need to stay, ok?!! He is just plan nasty!!! Ooops sorry......). Plus, has he had a job/congregation since then? Who picked him up. Did he have to leave a congregation for the position at 3ABN? Girl, she been home with him everyda for a while now. LOL!!!
Hmmm, didn't I state that he would plead "guilty". Now...what does he pay?? Staying in the house "with his clothes on"?? I felt he needed a change of cloths for his deeds. Don't tell me there was not "persuasion" over this. I figured it long time ago. His guilty plea for "flee" for now will get him nothing but hell for justice on judgment day with that sick corrupted mind that for years never changed. Find any one that ever changed?? Nope their mind was seared in their first deed of black evil.
Just think wiffee will have him under her feet all day. :ROFL: Can anyone imagine living with that evil everyday of your life?? You become what you live with!!.....So be it. or should I say You are what you choose. That is why I have no sympathy but disgust for the "guilty" and the sympathizers. I am glad that is over but not happy with the verdict. Oh and sympathizers of these deeds need to crawl under the table and pray for their heads of confusion.
edited for adding of words to verdict. Happy it is guilty -but not the justice of it. Oh, and Danny is guilty too....and the whole mess for protecting it. All in the name of SDA :horse: Just keep eating the "feed" and depositing it on the gound.
Di,
that is what's so amazing that anyone could live with that for so long and not have the same mental dificiencies pertaining to their choices, --of back and forth. What woman would do this? how could any children live with this and respect their mother or their father. But I knew a family years ago, that lived up the road aways. All had did incest the father with the daughters and brothers and sisters and they all lived a happy go life. about 12 hairbrains. They did not even want them in the schools then. They Never knew they did much wrong. This has got to be the case here in not reasoning out accountability of morals. I cannot believe it entered into National tv. Oh yes, one strange thing, sometimes passing their house, they'd all be sitting out on the porch strummin guitars and singing way off tune and just whatevertune. All thinking they had talent. The "Shelton clan" just don't know or think anything of this magnitude is wrong. It is going to take the court to take em out since the "clan" can't figure out that "keeping up with appearances" just doesn't get it in the right slot. Unbelieveable the posts coming from the other side.
How is the weather where your at Di. All I can say is the garden is one hot spot. Setting in Air right now to cool down but the temp goes up when I see some of this junk....lol
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I find it interesting that the insinuation is still being made that I was paid to give a statement. Well, rest assured defenders, I'm not worried about your assertions, because you can never prove that.
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Re: Tommy Shelton
by Greg Thompson » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:23 am UTC
If it helps, Robert can wait a long time, because I am not apologizing for something I never said.
I didn't ask for an apology. I demanded a correction.
He has probably become GAJ/RJP's right hand henchman and we know that this case is only taking place because GAJ/RJP have been working hard for years to convince, cajole, maybe even pay individuals (the money probably coming from the so-called doctor from Norway) to "come forward" and make accusations against Tommy that would lead a prosecutor to file charges.
"Come forward" is in quotation marks, which suggests that I have tried to convince, cajole, and pay individuals to falsely accuse Tommy Shelton. I have never done so, and I demand a correction.
By the way, it is commendable for someone to encourage another to report truthfully the misdeeds of a sexual predator, even if it leads to prosecution, and whoever thinks otherwise should seek spiritual help.
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
I agree 100% that it is obvious that some of the defenders suffer from the Jim Jones Syndrome. They have backed he man for so long that they are willing to drink the coolade and lay down with there master and die. There is none so blind as they that cannot see, however the judicial system seems to be working some type of eye surgery that is helping some.
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Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". (what makes it more of a sin, is there is no justification and no excuse for claiming this, as there is no documentation to support this claim from anyone)Tommy Shelton has NEVER admitted to this type of behavior before (child molestation). He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does.
I do not agree with that decision, but sadly, and reluctantly, I more than understand the reasons for it, all of which haven't been given here, and probably never will be, at least on this earth.
This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all.
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Re: Tommy Shelton
by Greg Thompson » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:23 am UTC
If it helps, Robert can wait a long time, because I am not apologizing for something I never said.
I didn't ask for an apology. I demanded a correction.
He has probably become GAJ/RJP's right hand henchman and we know that this case is only taking place because GAJ/RJP have been working hard for years to convince, cajole, maybe even pay individuals (the money probably coming from the so-called doctor from Norway) to "come forward" and make accusations against Tommy that would lead a prosecutor to file charges.
"Come forward" is in quotation marks, which suggests that I have tried to convince, cajole, and pay individuals to falsely accuse Tommy Shelton. I have never done so, and I demand a correction.
Demand away little man. Before you start demanding corrections the least you could do is stop adding your own words and interpretation and then demanding they correct what you are saying. (and they never did.)
By the way, it is commendable for someone to encourage another to report truthfully the misdeeds of a sexual predator, even if it leads to prosecution, and whoever thinks otherwise should seek spiritual help.
By the way it is not commendable that you sought anything and everything against Tommy Shelton and encouraged them to "report" TO YOU, so you could use it to condemn Danny Shelton, and 3 Angels. That had nothing to do with stopping a sexual predator or protecting one single child. It is just contemptible.
All who know Tommy know, that you and Dryden have pursued every avenue, have made phone calls to dozens of people asking if he ever did anything to their children – You have called his family, friends, and past church members to “investigate” every corner of his life trying to find more and anything since this alex walkers claim and case, but you came up empty handed , nothing before or in the last 15 years to accuse 3abn with, nothing to lay at their door, and not one single allegation to even bring up against Tommy, even apart from your DS and 3ABN obsession, to support your claim that he is a dangerous and sexual predator. So you are left attempting to prove that these two men who came forward in 2008, have something to do with 3ABN and DS, and their hiring of Tommy and your accusations from years before that, left claiming they covered up that which they never even knew about, and that this case after the fact had something or anything to do with the lawsuit against you and Joy. You can't prove that, for it's false. Even your partner, Joy is to intelligent to join your arguments. Because they are lies, little man.
Enjoy your laurels now, beat your chest little man, proclaim yourself righteous, and your harassment and stalking, all done in the name of condemning DS and 3ABN as commendable here. For here and now is where you get that reward. Others can, and do, and will disagree about your future rewards, we have that right to disagree with you, correct?
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Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". (what makes it more of a sin, is there is no justification and no excuse for claiming this, as there is no documentation to support this claim from anyone)Tommy Shelton has NEVER admitted to this type of behavior before (child molestation). He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does. Have you forgotten the evidence brought him into court, enough that he was indited, a close friend walked into his folly as a witness, wrote in a letter her disbelief of the folly, victims came forward. and DS himself came forward with admission on worrying about the statute of time. If your so called innocence was true TS would not be in this position and Don't you understand that if all these different people did not come forward for the same thing that their would not be accusers. You are one sick person.
I do not agree with that decision, but sadly, and reluctantly, I more than understand the reasons for it, all of which haven't been given here, and probably never will be, at least on this earth. You do not understand that TS is one sicko and plays on your sympathy as most devils do. If a Christian did not have sympathy the Devil could not sway some that haven't learned the tricks yet. I have learned the tricks.This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all. I looked at that statement too, and you could take it however you want but the reality is this. IF the incidents of liberty to victims happened maybe just a smidge once, he might have got a way with it or hid it till doomsday, But his liberties of foul was so much that he smeared and gave up to many leak's as this sort of evil does and so his reputation is beyond repair from his actions and no one Else's. You are one big justifyer, maybe your a lover, maybe a relative, but you sure are hooked. Even his wiffee knew of his problem and so did the rest. How about that? Even if LS was totally to blame look at what DS went for and there is no doubt he has a very big problem too. How many under his belt??? Each one of them know, don't they!!!
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Be gone foul spirit. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ.
Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". (what makes it more of a sin, is there is no justification and no excuse for claiming this, as there is no documentation to support this claim from anyone)Tommy Shelton has NEVER admitted to this type of behavior before (child molestation). He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does. Have you forgotten the evidence brought him into court, enough that he was indited, a close friend walked into his folly has a witness, wrote in a letter her disbelief of the folly, victims came forward. and DS himself came forward with admission on worrying about the statute of time. If your so called innocence was true TS would not be in this position and Don't you understand that if all these different people did not come forward for the same thing that their would not be accusers. You are one sick person.
I do not agree with that decision, but sadly, and reluctantly, I more than understand the reasons for it, all of which haven't been given here, and probably never will be, at least on this earth. You do not understand that TS is one sicko and plays on your sympathy as most devils do. If a Christian did not have sympathy the Devil could not sway some that haven't learned the tricks yet. I have learned the tricks.This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all. I looked at that statement too, and you could take it however you want but the reality is this. IF the incidents of liberty to victims happened maybe just a smidge once, he might have got a way with it or hid it till doomsday, But his liberties of foul was so much that he smeared and gave up to many leakes as this sort of evil does and so his reputation is beyond repair from his actions and no one elses. You are one big justifyer, maybe your a lover, maybe a relative, but you sure are hooked. Even his wiffee knew of his problem and so did the rest. How about that? Even if LS was totally to blame look at what DS went for and there is no doubt he has a very big problem too. How many under his belt??? Each one of them know, don't they!!!
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Be gone foul spirit. I rebuke you in the name of Jesus Christ.
Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". (what makes it more of a sin, is there is no justification and no excuse for claiming this, as there is no documentation to support this claim from anyone)Tommy Shelton has NEVER admitted to this type of behavior before (child molestation). He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does. Have you forgotten the evidence brought him into court, enough that he was indited, a close friend walked into his folly as a witness, wrote in a letter her disbelief of the folly, victims came forward. and DS himself came forward with admission on worrying about the statute of time. If your so called innocence was true TS would not be in this position and Don't you understand that if all these different people did not come forward for the same thing that their would not be accusers. You are one sick person.
I do not agree with that decision, but sadly, and reluctantly, I more than understand the reasons for it, all of which haven't been given here, and probably never will be, at least on this earth. You do not understand that TS is one sicko and plays on your sympathy as most devils do. If a Christian did not have sympathy the Devil could not sway some that haven't learned the tricks yet. I have learned the tricks.This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all. I looked at that statement too, and you could take it however you want but the reality is this. IF the incidents of liberty to victims happened maybe just a smidge once, he might have got a way with it or hid it till doomsday, But his liberties of foul was so much that he smeared and gave up to many leakes as this sort of evil does and so his reputation is beyond repair from his actions and no one elses. You are one big justifyer, maybe your a lover, maybe a relative, but you sure are hooked. Even his wiffee knew of his problem and so did the rest. How about that? Even if LS was totally to blame look at what DS went for and there is no doubt he has a very big problem too. How many under his belt??? Each one of them know, don't they!!!
Nosir Myzing you should be no doubt free now!!
Edited to put red print under last para my original post.
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Oh my, someone call in the white coats, as soon as possible, Nosir, has really lost his mind!
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It is quite obvious that Nosir Myzing's name is a lie. Should be Sir Myzing instead.
You have called his family, friends, and past church members to “investigate” every corner of his life trying to find more and anything since this alex walkers claim and case, but you came up empty handed , nothing before or in the last 15 years to accuse 3abn with,
You don't know what you are talking about. Alex came forward around June 2007, and that was after we had already obtained and posted most of our material.
What family have I called?
So you are left attempting to prove that these two men who came forward in 2008, have something to do with 3ABN and DS, and their hiring of Tommy and your accusations from years before that, left claiming they covered up that which they never even knew about, and that this case after the fact had something or anything to do with the lawsuit against you and Joy. You can't prove that, for it's false.
You're rambling.
In 2003, Danny knew there had been problems in Virginia, and he tried to cover it all up by trying to shut up Dryden, using 3ABN's telephone and Mike Riva.
My understanding is that Danny knew there had been problems in Virginia when 3ABN rehired Tommy in 2001.
In late 2006 Dryden announced new allegations in Virginia, which included those of one of the two victims that led to Tommy's arrest. We reported on those allegations, and Danny started threatening to sue.
In late 2006, the allegations from that victim were considerably less than 15 years.
Tommy Shelton has NEVER admitted to this type of behavior before (child molestation). He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does.
In one of his quasi-confession letters, what Tommy said sure sounds like an admission. But your final thought is very strange: "He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does." So you are saying that Tommy's decision to admit that he is guilty does not mean that he has decided not to maintain his innocence. That is contradictory.
Oh my, someone call in the white coats, as soon as possible, Nosir, has really lost his mind!
ST, I think Sir Myzing is Cindy. SO "her" would be better than "his".
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Evil is so rampant within the "clan" that "she" doesn't have a skirt big enough to cover it all to hide it. :ROFL: or maybe "she" thinks she does!!! The same defenses of lingo are all the same aren't they!! I see in one of her last posts she is asking for :help: :ROFL: for herself.
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Oh my, someone call in the white coats, as soon as possible, Nosir, has really lost his mind!
I disagree!!!
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Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". ...This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all.
Amen. Justice will one day be served, to His glory. Each person here, including myself, will be called to account for "every idle word" said here, because we have actually said it, and done it, to Jesus. As he said: whatsoever you have done to them.. you have done it to me and whatsoever you have not done to them.. you have not done it to me.
Do You folks remember Sabbath school and the lessons learned there, even in the songs? Were you paying attention? "O be careful little mouths what you say... For there's a Savior up above and he's looking down in love, O be careful little mouths what you say" I hope so.. <3
Learn to prove all things, or you are gonna be a hurting unit.
toodles...
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Oh my, someone call in the white coats, as soon as possible, Nosir, has really lost his mind!
I disagree!!!
Did you mean instead that you agree?
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Ian,
Where you coming from?? Trying to connect your theories in the wrong scenarios. We all have minds to discern good and evil and we all have the right to fight against evil and we all have the right to see justice in the courts against the devils work when one choses to serve the devil. We all have mouths to speak facts, and we all have the right to discern between right and wrong and for you to come up with this stuff is exactely what the devil does and uses God's words just like Lucifer did. Did you realize they had rules and punishments for this behavior that was commanded to initiate against these acts of evil way back in the beginning given to Moses.
Ian you must remember there are people that stand for right, with no swaying from to the right and left. Then there are those that Satan can rely on as people sway with emotions, then there is people blind from their own selfish likes and dislikes. I am a person of neither side and have watched the facts develop and only then can one begin to get near to discernment. First of all there should have never been any of this no matter what if they claimed to be what they preach. But evil lurked and just had to keep growing. A weed is stronger and bigger then the tender plant of good and comes again and again even after pulling it. This is no different. Do you even begin to realize what will happen to the remenant when they allow this in their circles. Who wants to be in that circle?? Outsiders that know no different and deceive them? You really need to get a broader look on things. Did you remember what happened to two sons when the Father did not correct them?? They died and then the Father fell and died too. 3abn, TS, DS, has certainly reached the frost for their demise.
edited to add words that were somehow not copied on post.
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Learn to prove all things, or you are gonna be a hurting unit.
When I read your story the other day I started realizing where you come from. You must have gone through some terrible times in your own experience. I feel sorry for you and pray that you might be able to solve the great hurts you have suffered.
I pray God may help you not projecting your own hurts into a preconceived pattern where you reason that certain people must be acting the way they do because they seem to you to have certain similarities to how your former husband treated you.
Learn to prove all things to yourself, rather than keeping a fight running within your own preconceived pattern.
There is no need to prove anything to anyone else than yourself and your God. Keep on fighting, if you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That is what I am doing. As I stated elsewhere I have no way of proving to you or your friends what people have told me in confidence and then later change it completely to please certain people and thereby keep their jobs.
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Oh my, someone call in the white coats, as soon as possible, Nosir, has really lost his mind!
I disagree!!!
Did you mean instead that you agree?
No, I disagree!
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Nosir.... has no identity. You need an identity to have a mind. How can you lose what isn't there?
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Mighty big statement coming from you Cindy Conard! You are so two faced it's ridiculous. You are the one that should be praying to God to forgive you for defending a child molestor. You are the one who has called countless victims liars, in the defense of your leader, Danny. You are the one who needs to "prove all things." Don't tell others what they should do if you aren't willing to do so. You look like a fool, and I am almost conviced you are one. You are sick. To be quite frank, all of you who have supported this predator should be named along with him, because you are no better than he is. I get so sick of your mouth running how this site is of the Devil, have you looked at yours lately? It's the Devils playground. You, Cindy Conard will have to stand before God one day and give an account of yourself as well. It's time you open up your eyes. I find it disgusting that you boldly call these victims liars, for what? Because your scared of DS, that is all it boils down too.
You come here and make insinuations that you can't back up. Just as the ones that you alleged against Snoopy, so don't be demanding others to "prove all things." I think enough has been proven, you are just blind to accept it. Why? Because you are a follower of the "Regime."Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". ...This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all.
Amen. Justice will one day be served, to His glory. Each person here, including myself, will be called to account for "every idle word" said here, because we have actually said it, and done it, to Jesus. As he said: whatsoever you have done to them.. you have done it to me and whatsoever you have not done to them.. you have not done it to me.
Do You folks remember Sabbath school and the lessons learned there, even in the songs? Were you paying attention? "O be careful little mouths what you say... For there's a Savior up above and he's looking down in love, O be careful little mouths what you say" I hope so.. <3
Learn to prove all things, or you are gonna be a hurting unit.
toodles...
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Nosir.... has no identity. You need an identity to have a mind. How can you lose what isn't there?
:ROFL: :ROFL: Good point, Johann!
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Learn to prove all things, or you are gonna be a hurting unit.
When I read your story the other day I started realizing where you come from. You must have gone through some terrible times in your own experience. I feel sorry for you and pray that you might be able to solve the great hurts you have suffered.
I pray God may help you not projecting your own hurts into a preconceived pattern where you reason that certain people must be acting the way they do because they seem to you to have certain similarities to how your former husband treated you.
Learn to prove all things to yourself, rather than keeping a fight running within your own preconceived pattern.
There is no need to prove anything to anyone else than yourself and your God. Keep on fighting, if you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That is what I am doing. As I stated elsewhere I have no way of proving to you or your friends what people have told me in confidence and then later change it completely to please certain people and thereby keep their jobs.
Yes, I have gone through terrible things, but that is key (past tense). Don't feel bad for me, Johann. I don't hurt. I have a Lord who is the great physician, he is always with me, and he fixes all and heals me, he always holds my hand and helps me move ahead, and learn. he even slaps me upside my head and knocks me off my high horse when I need it(with my permission) because we both know I need that sometimes, Why? He loves me. It's all good. I am not saying this just to combat you. I wrote the following in Nov 2001, ok? see the bold text. God is good.
Nov 5 2001, 7:13 p
From: cynthia...@email.com (Cindy)
Date: 5 Nov 2001 15:13:24 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 5 2001 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: How do you personally know God exists?
"Paul... wrote in message <news:mTJE7.257077$Xz1.56064629@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>...
> I just got through reading a post that said this NG was becoming just a
> bunch of individual messages posted over a period of time. Unfortunately I
> think there is some truth in that, so here goes. How do you personally know
> God is who you think He is. The terrorists go to there deaths with smiles
> on their faces because they believe that they are about to enter heaven. We
> say, nonsense, but how does that make us right and them wrong. What, in
> essence, seperates our beliefs and makes them "true" and theirs false?
> Paul
Paul :-)
How do I personally know God is who I think he is? I have faith. :-)
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things
unseen.
We do not physically see God, but we see his works, so we know he is there.
This is kind of like the wind, we don't see it either, but we witness it's
effects, and so we know it exists.
God tells us in his word, to search the scriptures because they testify of
him.
I take this to mean that his words are truth about him, and that the word
"testify" implies that there is an accusation which is being disproved. When
I see the words of God being confirmed in my life, and in those I know, I
see this as proof, that the God I believe in exists.
When my little sister was 3 or 4 years old, she came running into the house
one day, shouting out in her excitement "Jesus saved me!" No one knew what
she was talking about, but when she calmed down and could explain, it turned
out that she had been playing outside, and had become so entangled in
blackberry bushes that she couldn't move, she was very scared, and prayed
"Jesus save me" and then he did. When asked how he
had saved her she said. " I was stuck, then I asked Jesus to save me, and
then I was just outside of the stickers." We questioned her, but she didn't
suddenly discover a way to untangle herself. According to her she was in
them, she prayed, the next moment she was out.
" Suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of
God"
When I had my 30th birthday. We spent it camping at a remote pass in the
Cascade Mts. I awoke in the middle of the night, and when I stepped outside
the tent I was overwhelmed. I stood there frozen. The stars were huge. I
felt like if I could just reach out, I could touch them. I was in true awe
of my Creator, never had I seen such beauty, or realized how insignificant I
was in the vastness of his creation, and yet as I stood there overwhelmed
and awed, I realized how truly God does love us. I was a mere speck, less
actually, in the the history, and scope of his creation. And yet, if it was
only me, he still would have come and died for me.. to save me... In that
moment I knew my God, better than I ever had before. That memory stays with
me. It doesn't fade...
" Be still, and know that I am God."
My younger son ___ at age one, got a cold, which turned into pneumonia,
although they
had a problem diagnosing it at first. His fever skyrocketed, and nothing
would bring it down. They flew him from our hospital, to _____ in a
helicopter, he was not just having fever seizures, he was having "grand mal
seizures" non stop.
He almost died. My husband, who refused to pray by himself, asked for me to
pray, as God would listen to me. ___ condition was so serious, they
would not allow us to fly with him, we drove the two hours to the hospital,
with me praying non stop, and my husband echoing my words.
When we got there, we found out, _____ was no longer having seizures, but
he was paralyzed, in half his body. During the next couple of days, _____
began to move again, as we continued to pray. His Doctors said because of
his seizures, he would be on phenobarbital, all of his life,as he was most
likely epileptic.
Five days later, we took a drunken little baby home from the hospital.
His first steps, were like they never happened, his words were gone. He
would sit, and weave from side to side, as if intoxicated, he looked at us
out of bleary eyes, and had little comprehension.
It broke my heart.
I gave my baby to the Lord. I asked him
to help him, as I could not. The Lord answered my prayer. :-)
I realized that he did not need the medication, and I gradually weaned him
off. The Doctors
always told me that I was wrong, and recommended he be back on the medicine,
but God's words, proved to be truer. My son is now 18. He has
never had another seizure. He is doing well in school, and active in sports. He runs faster and jups higher and sours above his friends.
He is truly one of God's children. His teachers, and friends tell me, he is
like a magnet. He attracts
others, he captures them with his smile. He has a gentle soul, and people
respond in the same manner.
He has taught me much, with his quiet faith. I
remember one day, when it was just he and I. I was driving along the
highway, and feeling rather bored.
____ put on my sunglasses, and sat there in silence, for about 15
min. Then he said "wearing these sunglasses is sort of like seeing how the
world was when God first created it." He handed them to me, and I put them
on.
Suddenly the world was more vibrant, more alive, more perfect. We continued
the rest of our drive, in animated discussion of what it would be like when
the Lord remade this world.
" Bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not
depart from it."
Then there is the story of my older son J______, and I. He was 14,
at the time. I was a bit older :) We went
hiking on a sabbath afternoon, leaving ____ behind because of a wrenched
knee. We took our dog Tana with us, a pitbull rotwieler mix, she was an
overenthusiastic 9 month old puppy at the time.
It was a bright and sunny day, the kind you often get in early
February before it freezes again. We dressed in Levi's and sweatshirts
accordingly. We were planning to hike a couple of miles,through the woods,
travel down a trail to the beach, and then back along the beach a couple of
miles to the main road, and then back the 1/2 mile to our house. Everything
went according to
plan, until we started to hike along the beach, the tide was up, and we were
trying to walk on rocks that were not large enough to step on, or small
enough for us to walk over easily, we were both twisting our ankles, so we
decided to climb the cliffs along the beach, and take a shortcut through the
woods to home. We were trying to hurry, because it was starting to get dark,
and it was getting cold.
We climbed the cliffs at a spot where the slope wasn't very steep. Then we
set off down a road which had been barricaded before, but had accidentally
been left unblocked. It was a old logging road in a state park. one which
soon turned into a clear trail.
It steadily headed toward our house, and I had no worries, because we were
traveling in woods that had been my backyard since a child. It has become a
joke in my family that I have no sense of direction when in a car. If I am
not driving, I will not easily find my way back. However, when I am on foot
I have an unerring sense of direction, and have always found my way home.
Except for this day.
Darkness fell quickly, and the trail dwindled down to
nothing. When I realized we were no longer on a trail, I told _______ we had
better retrace our steps, and walk home, on the main road. We tried to do so
but I couldn't find
the trail. Five minutes later, with only trees, and brush surrounding us, I
began to feel panicked, because for the first time in my life, I was truly
lost. It was getting so dark I could barely make out the tree's around
us. ___ asked me " Are we lost Mom?" I heard the fear in his voice, and so I replied
calmly " Of course not. It is just hard to see right now. If we pray, God
will show us the way." I had total faith as we prayed together, that we
would instantly be shown the way out.
Ten minutes or so later, we had still not reached the road, and in fact the
brush
had grown much thicker. I began to get angry, and silently berate God,
because I didn't want my son to hear. " Why aren't you helping? I know you
don't
always answer prayers, in the way we expect, but my son believes you are
showing us the way out, I'm trying to build his faith here, so could you
please
help me out here?
Please guide us!" ( how foolish was I?) These kind of prayers
continued for a couple of hours, as we made our way through the woods. I
steadily talked calmly to J_____, but inside being very angry, and silently
letting God know, exactly what I thought, I continued to ask him for help,
but did not believe he would help us. (for what ever reason he had, that I
didn't know about.) I tried to have faith, but my anger and fear were
interfering.
Some may wonder why we did not stay put, till someone found us. I didn't
know that my husband was searching for us, and that the park ranger had
joined him, if we had stayed put, at the spot where we prayed, we probably
would have been found right away, as we later found out they had searched at
the beginning of all the roads and trails leading off from the parking lot
first. However I had my own ideas about what God was trying to tell me,
based on my own opinion. So for what I considered good reasons, I set off
boldly in the wrong direction.
In the steadily denser woods and underbrush we decided on a plan. Actually
I decided,vand explained it to ____. ( We lived on an island at the time,and although
it was quite long, it was only 21/2 miles wide at it's widest point. So I knew if we kept going in the same direction, we would eventually come out of the woods.) " Do you
see how occasionally we can see the stars?" I pointed overhead, to a spot
where the tree's didn't block out our view of the sky. He said "yes" " well
look in front of you, do you see that big tree against the outline of the
sky? I turned him physically in the direction that I wanted him to look,
because on our level, we couldn't see our hand in front of our face.
"yes" "well do you see that star right above it?" There was much discussion
until we agreed we were looking at the same star. "We will follow that star,
so we know we are going in the same direction, all the time. Every time we
come to an overhead clearing we will line up a tree in that direction, and
thats the way we'll go, when we reach that tree we will look again"
(please note that I am now following my plan, and not worrying about what
God may have to say)
We followed my plan. The underbrush became so dense we couldn't force our
way through, so I reached in front of me to feel if there was anything that
might impale me, then I threw my body down to break through any obstacles in
the direction we were going. _____ followed my trail for a while, then he
said "Mom? I'm getting mad." I said " I know.. it's ok" He said " No, you
don't understand, I'M REALLY GETTING MAD!" I stopped my trailbreaking
efforts. I heard him start to cry. I reached out and hugged him, and we
clung to each other for awhile. I kept my tears to myself as he sobbed,
because I didn't want to hurt his faith. I wanted to appear strong, and
confident. :-s I prayed aloud for him, So that
he wouldn't be afraid, and so he would be safe. (I did not pray for myself
however. Now I was even angrier at God, because my son was upset. I
believed God was at fault for not helping, and I told him so.)
_______ calmed down, and insisted on helping to break the
trail. I protested. He ran forward and threw his body down to break through.
I immediately ran past him and did the same. We continued like this for what
seemed like hours??? My older son is alot like me. :-) Tana thought this a
great game, and kept jumping on us when we did this, and refused to calm
down. She was a huge puppy.
At one point, as we broke our way through, thick branches, we came to
realize they were not branches at all, but were instead the roots of a
enormous fallen tree. Feeling our way along, we made our way to the trunk. I
am 5'5". The trunk was about my height. It was too long to go around, and we
couldn't get under it. So we climbed up on it. We heard Tana frantically
trying to follow us, but she couldn't find a way. So I climbed back down,
and lifted her up to ____, as he pulled her up from above. After climbing
back up,I tried to
lower her on the other side but ended up dropping her. ______ and I stood
there looking up trying to locate our star and decide which direction to go
in.
Suddenly we heard a growl, and Tana growling back. ____ asked me what it
was, I replied that I didn't know. We both began to call Tana, but she
wouldn't come. She and whatever else was out there began to fight. I was
afraid for her, and continued to call her, but the fight continued. So
____ and I just stood there listening, praying,but not able to see. Then there was
silence. After a moment we heard the sounds of one animal moving around in
the bushes... The sounds got closer. I tentively called "Tana"? and was
rewarded with the sounds of her trying to jump up to us, and whimpering when
she couldn't.
We eventually came to an area that we could not break through, and we were
both exhausted. I told J______ "the worst case scenario here, is that we are
just stuck here till morning. When it gets light we will be able to see,
and we'll find our way out. Lets just try to get some sleep till then." So
we backtracked about 10 feet, and cleared a big enough area that we could
lay down. We broke off branches and leaves to be a buffer between us and the
cold ground. We layed down, and cuddled up to each other, and ______
promptly fell asleep. I did not. It was bitterly cold, and I couldn't stop
shivering. I prayed once again, telling God that I knew that if he could
send Elijah food in the wilderness, then he could send us some blankets, and
since he hadn't seen fit to lead us out, could he send us the blankets
please... and some time later "Could you at least send us the illusion of
some blankets?" Tana got up and I heard her going to the bathroom. She must
have been uphill from me because moments later I was wet. This time I talked
to God out loud " Great! Is that your answer then? As if things aren't bad
enough, now the dog pees on me?" (LOL What a miserable foolish, pitiful
woman I was
being. I can laugh about it now, but at the time I was just miserable, and
didn't see my foolishness.)
Once a helicopter flew overhead, we had heard several through the night, but
as we lived near a navy base, this was not unusual. However this one was
very low, and it was using lights aimed down into the tree's. I jumped up,
and began to wave my arms frantically, but the light, and the sound, faded
off into the distance.
Another time, Tana got up, from where she was laying, and began to bark. At
first I heard nothing, but then I heard a voice calling way off in the
distance, and another voice responding, I could make out the tones, but not
the words. Realizing If I could hear them, maybe they could hear me. I got
up again and started shouting, ______ woke up and asked what I was doing. I
told him, but he said he heard nothing, and went back to sleep. BTW Never
having tried to yell things at the top of my lungs before, I had never
realized that the loudest word you can yell, is "Hello". I didn't hear the
yelling anymore so eventually I layed back down.
Some time later.. I heard voices yelling again. I again got up. I yelled
Hello, they responded with Hello. We continued doing this as they gradually
got closer. Soon they were close enough, that I heard them yell. "Cindy?" I
yelled back " yes!" and I started crying in relief. ______ got up and came
over to hug me, and then said " I'm sorry Mom, but you stink." And stood
back from me. We both started laughing together. The men yelling, got close
enough to tell me that they were from search and rescue, and that the ranger
and my husband had called them. The dogs with them made it through to Johnny
and I. The men told us to hold on, as they were going to have to cut their
way through to us. By the time they got to us with their chainsaws, it was
the break of dawn, and
we were beginning to be able to see around us.
They led us out of the woods, to their bus, we weren't that far from the
road. They were prepared to treat us for exposure, and injuries. I had
bruises everywhere. I was covered in scrapes and scratches, from head to
foot, but I had no serious injuries. ______ had no bruises, and only one
tiny scratch. Although I had been bone chillingly cold, neither of us was
suffering from exposure.
It wasn't until _____ answered one of our rescuers, who was asking about
how uncomfortable and cold the night had been, that I realized how foolish I
had been. _____ said " I was actually comfortable, and warm. I slept good.
I felt just like I was at home in my bed, under my covers." For a moment I
was stunned, as I realized what had happened, and how, and why. Then remorse
hit me " I am so sorry Lord..... thank you! thank you for watching out for
my son."
A couple of side notes:
The helicopter was a heat seeking helicopter, one of two, they searched for
us until a lack of fuel forced them to stop, and return to base. There were
also all terrain vehicles traveling up and down the beach, and boats in the
water.
Later, when the Rangers followed ______ and my trail, they told us about
two times when we had avoided disaster. Once we were a foot away from the
edge of the cliff, when suddenly we had turned at a right angle and gone off
in another direction, although our trail, had been basically moving in the
same direction up till then. The other was when we had reached the fallen
tree, it was a miracle that we hadn't fallen into the hole left by the roots
being ripped out of the ground, and buried. All I can say, is "praise God!" I have no
other explanation.
Psa 37:8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise
to do evil.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil
speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
[the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward
appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our]
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I was married to an unbeliever, one who turned into both a alcoholic and a
drug addict. I thought love conquered all, and that I could save him, and
help him know the Lord. God says " Be ye not unequally yoked" I learned why.
You can not
always lead someone to Christ, and they make your relationship with the Lord
more difficult, as they are a constant pull away from the lord. I did not
believe in divorce, so I stayed with him for 18 years. It was not all
negative, but it was a nightmare when he was on a binge... He was like
someone
posessed, and I turned into a person, I did not like.
During one such binge,toward the end. I was working two jobs trying to keep
our heads above water, My husband went through our savings, spent his whole
paycheck, and returned to the house to get money from me. I refused. He
literally ripped my purse from me, took all the money I had, and stormed out
of the house to dissapear. Leaving me with two children to feed, and no
food, or money to get either groceries, or pay the bills.
I was at my wits end, I did not know what to do. I told God that. I told
him I didn't even know what to ask for, and I begged him to help us as he
saw fit, since he knew better than me. I asked him to take charge, as i was
not able to.
The next morning was sabbath, I did not go to church, but as I was studying
and
praying. I looked over at the shelf, and noticed a reference book that I
hadn't
used in awhile. I got it. When I opened it, I found a hundred dollar
bill. Some might say that I had put it there myself, and forgot. I know I
did not.
"Ask, and ye shall receive"
Although I didn't know it at the time, my Mother was also praying for me,
she supposedly didn't know what I was going through, she lived in another
state, and I
didn't tell her. A couple of days later she told me that she had prayed
that God would start closing doors in front of me, as a I was not able to
choose, which way to go. I thought this rather highhanded of her, and of
God, and resented it at the time, because that was what began to happen to
me. :-o
I wanted to go this way, the lord led me that way. way, I thought I should
do "this", the lord showed me "that" " I thought I knew his words, he showed
me other words Eventually there was no place to go,
as I was face to face with God, and all I could say was, " Ok, not my will,
yours." I am opinionated, and stubborn, but not stupid. I realized that my
prayers, and my mother's were actually the same, and God was answering them.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my
ways, saith the LORD.
I left my husband. He moved out soon after, and disapeared. We lived in a
little tiny trailer, that my son ______called "the bomb shelter" I took on
another job, in addition to my others. People ask me how I did it, I can
only say "I didn't, the Lord did" I somehow was not tired, and could do the
things that had to be done, as I worked to pay off the debts I inherited
from my missing husband, and to provide for my children. Once when I had to
make a choice between paying the rent, or buying Groceries and paying part
of the rent. I prayed about it, and then paid my rent. The next day, when
___ and I arrived home, we found a huge box, on the front porch, which
had been left by UPS. There was no return address. When we took it into the
house, we found it was full of non perishable food. So much, that I could
barely fit it in my cabinets. I found out by accident months later that it
had been sent by my sister, she had read between my words to her on the
phone, and been impressed to do so. She had sent it anonymously, because she
did not think I would have accepted her help otherwise.
She also sent money, anonymously, a couple of times, when I needed it the
most, although I had not talked to her, she said she somehow knew. :)
I lived like this for about six months, and then I found out that My husband
was living with another woman, since his last words to me were that he was
off to prove himself to me, because he knew what was important now, and he
really loved me,I had been thinking, and praying that he was off finding
himself, and trying to make things right. It was all I could do to get
through the next couple of weeks, daily I felt worse. All of the bills from
our old address were suddenly added to my new bills, as he had not payed
them, and I was easy to find, and he was not. I couldn't do it. I hit rock
bottom. I finally swallowed my pride, and called my Mom, and told her I
needed help. This is the moment I was talking about when I said that I was
suddenly face to face with God. I had no more choices.
She responded with " I'm coming to get you guys, I don't know how, but I'll
let you know when I call back tomorrow"
She did come to get me and my son's. :) And that is a story all by itself,
as we moved many states away, through the mountains, in the winter... We
lived with her for a year, while we got on our feet again.
The lord has brought me to a place that I am happy; When I left ______
State, I stepped out in faith, I asked the Lord to lead me, and I have seen
nothing but good come from that request.
The day after I arrived in my new state, I had not one job, but two, I
worked both for awhile till my Mom pointed out that it wasn't necessary
anymore.
One night as I prayed, I asked the Lord to take away my pain, as I couldn't
bear it anymore. Every time I thought of my husband, it was a literal ache, I
felt like I was literally being stabbed, and it was all I could do not to
double over with the physical pain. It was hard to take a breath. The next
morning when I awoke, the first thought I had was that I forgave my husband.
The anger and the bitterness were gone. I was ecstatic. I felt like you do
on a beautiful spring morning, when the sun is shining, and the birds are
singing, Yet it was the dead of winter. I was healed! The pain, and the
feelings of inadequacy, and betrayel, and rejection were gone. I had said
the words, but did not really understand them until then. In truly forgiving
John, I was able to be truly healed and to stop hurting. I love him still,
but I am not in love with him anymore. I pray for him, but his memories
cause me no more pain, nor any tears.
Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be
saved: for thou [art] my praise.
A friend called to tell me of a place for rent, that she believed to be
perfect for me. We went to look at it during my lunchbreak. It was perfect.
It is a huge Brick warehouse type building, with a carved wooden front door.
It has a spiral staircase, 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, a jaccuzi, a study, a
pole barn. etc. It also was being rented for less than any other place I had
looked at. I looked at it, and fell in love. My future landlords looked at
me, and without asking for one reference told me it was mine.
I now live in a tiny town. While moving in, an older man came over, and
offered me the use of his dolly as he said it looked like we needed it. He
dropped it off, said he was going to the city, but we could just leave it on
his backsteps when we were done with it, and gave us directions to his
house.
My car needed new brakes, but with all the overtime I was working I could
not get it to the shop, across the street. The man who owns the bar three
doors down from me came to my door, and said I heard you needed your brakes
fixed. He introduced me to the son of the owner of the shop, who told me he
had called his Dad, and that he would be there two hours early the next day,
to look at my car. It cost me less than half of what I'd expected.
The man who own the tiny store, and bakery, two doors away, gave me a pie
for my children, and welcomed me to the neighborhood.
The tragedy of Sept 11th hit. I was in shock, and then angry, and outraged,
and then heartbroken, how could our country, and our citizens be attacked
like this. How could anyone justify death as an ends to a means? It made me
feel very vulnerable, and confused. Thank God that I have been led to the
place and Job I have now. Including our manager there are only 9 employees
where I work now, some part time. On Sept 12th our boss asked us to join
hands and pray together. we did so, and it was great. We do not belong to
the same churches, nor agree on everything, but we accept each other and we
are one otherwise. We prayed for ourselves, our leaders, for the terrorists,
those who back them, and for the world.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am
I in the midst of them.
I am truly blessed in the place I work, the place I live and in my life. I
can't help but know the God I believe in exists. If not for him. I would not
exist.
"All things work together for them who love the lord"
I think I have written you a book. LOL there is more I could write, but I
must stop somewhere. How do I personally know who God is? I can not
understand, how others do not personally know who he is.
In his infinite love,
Cindy
Johann, You mean well, I hope, but don't you ever, ever, suggest or say again that " I feel sorry for you and pray that you might be able to solve the great hurts you have suffered." Don't ever say:"I pray God may help you not projecting your own hurts into a preconceived pattern where you reason that certain people must be acting the way they do because they seem to you to have certain similarities to how your former husband treated you."
Your prayers there aren't needed, they have already been answered, long before we knew one another..
Take this to your own heart
"Learn to prove all things to yourself, rather than keeping a fight running within your own preconceived pattern." and don't judge me by them, plz.
I am less than perfect, and can solve nothing. But I don't need to, my Lord is all powerful and he solves and heals all, and He continually teaches us. MOVE ON. I have. God is good.
-
Learn to prove all things, or you are gonna be a hurting unit.
When I read your story the other day I started realizing where you come from. You must have gone through some terrible times in your own experience. I feel sorry for you and pray that you might be able to solve the great hurts you have suffered.
I pray God may help you not projecting your own hurts into a preconceived pattern where you reason that certain people must be acting the way they do because they seem to you to have certain similarities to how your former husband treated you.
Learn to prove all things to yourself, rather than keeping a fight running within your own preconceived pattern.
There is no need to prove anything to anyone else than yourself and your God. Keep on fighting, if you are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That is what I am doing. As I stated elsewhere I have no way of proving to you or your friends what people have told me in confidence and then later change it completely to please certain people and thereby keep their jobs.
Yes, I have gone through terrible things, but that is key (past tense). Don't feel bad for me, Johann. I don't hurt. I have a Lord who is the great physician, he is always with me, and he fixes all and heals me, he always holds my hand and helps me move ahead, and learn. he even slaps me upside my head and knocks me off my high horse when I need it(with my permission) because we both know I need that sometimes, Why? He loves me. It's all good. I am not saying this just to combat you. I wrote the following in Nov 2001, ok? see the bold text. God is good.
Nov 5 2001, 7:13 p
From: cynthia...@email.com (Cindy)
Date: 5 Nov 2001 15:13:24 -0800
Local: Mon, Nov 5 2001 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: How do you personally know God exists?
"Paul... wrote in message <news:mTJE7.257077$Xz1.56064629@news1.rdc1.md.home.com>...
> I just got through reading a post that said this NG was becoming just a
> bunch of individual messages posted over a period of time. Unfortunately I
> think there is some truth in that, so here goes. How do you personally know
> God is who you think He is. The terrorists go to there deaths with smiles
> on their faces because they believe that they are about to enter heaven. We
> say, nonsense, but how does that make us right and them wrong. What, in
> essence, seperates our beliefs and makes them "true" and theirs false?
> Paul
Paul :-)
How do I personally know God is who I think he is? I have faith. :-)
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things
unseen.
We do not physically see God, but we see his works, so we know he is there.
This is kind of like the wind, we don't see it either, but we witness it's
effects, and so we know it exists.
God tells us in his word, to search the scriptures because they testify of
him.
I take this to mean that his words are truth about him, and that the word
"testify" implies that there is an accusation which is being disproved. When
I see the words of God being confirmed in my life, and in those I know, I
see this as proof, that the God I believe in exists.
When my little sister was 3 or 4 years old, she came running into the house
one day, shouting out in her excitement "Jesus saved me!" No one knew what
she was talking about, but when she calmed down and could explain, it turned
out that she had been playing outside, and had become so entangled in
blackberry bushes that she couldn't move, she was very scared, and prayed
"Jesus save me" and then he did. When asked how he
had saved her she said. " I was stuck, then I asked Jesus to save me, and
then I was just outside of the stickers." We questioned her, but she didn't
suddenly discover a way to untangle herself. According to her she was in
them, she prayed, the next moment she was out.
" Suffer the little children to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of
God"
When I had my 30th birthday. We spent it camping at a remote pass in the
Cascade Mts. I awoke in the middle of the night, and when I stepped outside
the tent I was overwhelmed. I stood there frozen. The stars were huge. I
felt like if I could just reach out, I could touch them. I was in true awe
of my Creator, never had I seen such beauty, or realized how insignificant I
was in the vastness of his creation, and yet as I stood there overwhelmed
and awed, I realized how truly God does love us. I was a mere speck, less
actually, in the the history, and scope of his creation. And yet, if it was
only me, he still would have come and died for me.. to save me... In that
moment I knew my God, better than I ever had before. That memory stays with
me. It doesn't fade...
" Be still, and know that I am God."
My younger son ___ at age one, got a cold, which turned into pneumonia,
although they
had a problem diagnosing it at first. His fever skyrocketed, and nothing
would bring it down. They flew him from our hospital, to _____ in a
helicopter, he was not just having fever seizures, he was having "grand mal
seizures" non stop.
He almost died. My husband, who refused to pray by himself, asked for me to
pray, as God would listen to me. ___ condition was so serious, they
would not allow us to fly with him, we drove the two hours to the hospital,
with me praying non stop, and my husband echoing my words.
When we got there, we found out, _____ was no longer having seizures, but
he was paralyzed, in half his body. During the next couple of days, _____
began to move again, as we continued to pray. His Doctors said because of
his seizures, he would be on phenobarbital, all of his life,as he was most
likely epileptic.
Five days later, we took a drunken little baby home from the hospital.
His first steps, were like they never happened, his words were gone. He
would sit, and weave from side to side, as if intoxicated, he looked at us
out of bleary eyes, and had little comprehension.
It broke my heart.
I gave my baby to the Lord. I asked him
to help him, as I could not. The Lord answered my prayer. :-)
I realized that he did not need the medication, and I gradually weaned him
off. The Doctors
always told me that I was wrong, and recommended he be back on the medicine,
but God's words, proved to be truer. My son is now 18. He has
never had another seizure. He is doing well in school, and active in sports. He runs faster and jups higher and sours above his friends.
He is truly one of God's children. His teachers, and friends tell me, he is
like a magnet. He attracts
others, he captures them with his smile. He has a gentle soul, and people
respond in the same manner.
He has taught me much, with his quiet faith. I
remember one day, when it was just he and I. I was driving along the
highway, and feeling rather bored.
____ put on my sunglasses, and sat there in silence, for about 15
min. Then he said "wearing these sunglasses is sort of like seeing how the
world was when God first created it." He handed them to me, and I put them
on.
Suddenly the world was more vibrant, more alive, more perfect. We continued
the rest of our drive, in animated discussion of what it would be like when
the Lord remade this world.
" Bring up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not
depart from it."
Then there is the story of my older son J______, and I. He was 14,
at the time. I was a bit older :) We went
hiking on a sabbath afternoon, leaving ____ behind because of a wrenched
knee. We took our dog Tana with us, a pitbull rotwieler mix, she was an
overenthusiastic 9 month old puppy at the time.
It was a bright and sunny day, the kind you often get in early
February before it freezes again. We dressed in Levi's and sweatshirts
accordingly. We were planning to hike a couple of miles,through the woods,
travel down a trail to the beach, and then back along the beach a couple of
miles to the main road, and then back the 1/2 mile to our house. Everything
went according to
plan, until we started to hike along the beach, the tide was up, and we were
trying to walk on rocks that were not large enough to step on, or small
enough for us to walk over easily, we were both twisting our ankles, so we
decided to climb the cliffs along the beach, and take a shortcut through the
woods to home. We were trying to hurry, because it was starting to get dark,
and it was getting cold.
We climbed the cliffs at a spot where the slope wasn't very steep. Then we
set off down a road which had been barricaded before, but had accidentally
been left unblocked. It was a old logging road in a state park. one which
soon turned into a clear trail.
It steadily headed toward our house, and I had no worries, because we were
traveling in woods that had been my backyard since a child. It has become a
joke in my family that I have no sense of direction when in a car. If I am
not driving, I will not easily find my way back. However, when I am on foot
I have an unerring sense of direction, and have always found my way home.
Except for this day.
Darkness fell quickly, and the trail dwindled down to
nothing. When I realized we were no longer on a trail, I told Johnny we had
better retrace our steps, and walk home, on the main road. We tried to do so
but I couldn't find
the trail. Five minutes later, with only trees, and brush surrounding us, I
began to feel panicked, because for the first time in my life, I was truly
lost. It was getting so dark I could barely make out the tree's around
us. ___ asked me " Are we lost Mom?" I heard the fear in his voice, and so I replied
calmly " Of course not. It is just hard to see right now. If we pray, God
will show us the way." I had total faith as we prayed together, that we
would instantly be shown the way out.
Ten minutes or so later, we had still not reached the road, and in fact the
brush
had grown much thicker. I began to get angry, and silently berate God,
because I didn't want my son to hear. " Why aren't you helping? I know you
don't
always answer prayers, in the way we expect, but my son believes you are
showing us the way out, I'm trying to build his faith here, so could you
please
help me out here?
Please guide us!" ( how foolish was I?) These kind of prayers
continued for a couple of hours, as we made our way through the woods. I
steadily talked calmly to J_____, but inside being very angry, and silently
letting God know, exactly what I thought, I continued to ask him for help,
but did not believe he would help us. (for what ever reason he had, that I
didn't know about.) I tried to have faith, but my anger and fear were
interfering.
Some may wonder why we did not stay put, till someone found us. I didn't
know that my husband was searching for us, and that the park ranger had
joined him, if we had stayed put, at the spot where we prayed, we probably
would have been found right away, as we later found out they had searched at
the beginning of all the roads and trails leading off from the parking lot
first. However I had my own ideas about what God was trying to tell me,
based on my own opinion. So for what I considered good reasons, I set off
boldly in the wrong direction.
In the steadily denser woods and underbrush we decided on a plan. Actually
I decided,vand explained it to ____. ( We lived on an island at the time,and although
it was quite long, it was only 21/2 miles wide at it's widest point. So I knew if we kept going in the same direction, we would eventually come out of the woods.) " Do you
see how occasionally we can see the stars?" I pointed overhead, to a spot
where the tree's didn't block out our view of the sky. He said "yes" " well
look in front of you, do you see that big tree against the outline of the
sky? I turned him physically in the direction that I wanted him to look,
because on our level, we couldn't see our hand in front of our face.
"yes" "well do you see that star right above it?" There was much discussion
until we agreed we were looking at the same star. "We will follow that star,
so we know we are going in the same direction, all the time. Every time we
come to an overhead clearing we will line up a tree in that direction, and
thats the way we'll go, when we reach that tree we will look again"
(please note that I am now following my plan, and not worrying about what
God may have to say)
We followed my plan. The underbrush became so dense we couldn't force our
way through, so I reached in front of me to feel if there was anything that
might impale me, then I threw my body down to break through any obstacles in
the direction we were going. _____ followed my trail for a while, then he
said "Mom? I'm getting mad." I said " I know.. it's ok" He said " No, you
don't understand, I'M REALLY GETTING MAD!" I stopped my trailbreaking
efforts. I heard him start to cry. I reached out and hugged him, and we
clung to each other for awhile. I kept my tears to myself as he sobbed,
because I didn't want to hurt his faith. I wanted to appear strong, and
confident. :-s I prayed aloud for him, So that
he wouldn't be afraid, and so he would be safe. (I did not pray for myself
however. Now I was even angrier at God, because my son was upset. I
believed God was at fault for not helping, and I told him so.)
_______ calmed down, and insisted on helping to break the
trail. I protested. He ran forward and threw his body down to break through.
I immediately ran past him and did the same. We continued like this for what
seemed like hours??? My older son is alot like me. :-) Tana thought this a
great game, and kept jumping on us when we did this, and refused to calm
down. She was a huge puppy.
At one point, as we broke our way through, thick branches, we came to
realize they were not branches at all, but were instead the roots of a
enormous fallen tree. Feeling our way along, we made our way to the trunk. I
am 5'5". The trunk was about my height. It was too long to go around, and we
couldn't get under it. So we climbed up on it. We heard Tana frantically
trying to follow us, but she couldn't find a way. So I climbed back down,
and lifted her up to ____, as he pulled her up from above. After climbing
back up,I tried to
lower her on the other side but ended up dropping her. Johnny and I stood
there looking up trying to locate our star and decide which direction to go
in.
Suddenly we heard a growl, and Tana growling back. ____ asked me what it
was, I replied that I didn't know. We both began to call Tana, but she
wouldn't come. She and whatever else was out there began to fight. I was
afraid for her, and continued to call her, but the fight continued. So
____ and I just stood there listening, praying,but not able to see. Then there was
silence. After a moment we heard the sounds of one animal moving around in
the bushes... The sounds got closer. I tentively called "Tana"? and was
rewarded with the sounds of her trying to jump up to us, and whimpering when
she couldn't.
We eventually came to an area that we could not break through, and we were
both exhausted. I told J______ "the worst case scenario here, is that we are
just stuck here till morning. When it gets light we will be able to see,
and we'll find our way out. Lets just try to get some sleep till then." So
we backtracked about 10 feet, and cleared a big enough area that we could
lay down. We broke off branches and leaves to be a buffer between us and the
cold ground. We layed down, and cuddled up to each other, and Johnny
promptly fell asleep. I did not. It was bitterly cold, and I couldn't stop
shivering. I prayed once again, telling God that I knew that if he could
send Elijah food in the wilderness, then he could send us some blankets, and
since he hadn't seen fit to lead us out, could he send us the blankets
please... and some time later "Could you at least send us the illusion of
some blankets?" Tana got up and I heard her going to the bathroom. She must
have been uphill from me because moments later I was wet. This time I talked
to God out loud " Great! Is that your answer then? As if things aren't bad
enough, now the dog pees on me?" (LOL What a miserable foolish, pitiful
woman I was
being. I can laugh about it now, but at the time I was just miserable, and
didn't see my foolishness.)
Once a helicopter flew overhead, we had heard several through the night, but
as we lived near a navy base, this was not unusual. However this one was
very low, and it was using lights aimed down into the tree's. I jumped up,
and began to wave my arms frantically, but the light, and the sound, faded
off into the distance.
Another time, Tana got up, from where she was laying, and began to bark. At
first I heard nothing, but then I heard a voice calling way off in the
distance, and another voice responding, I could make out the tones, but not
the words. Realizing If I could hear them, maybe they could hear me. I got
up again and started shouting, Johnny woke up and asked what I was doing. I
told him, but he said he heard nothing, and went back to sleep. BTW Never
having tried to yell things at the top of my lungs before, I had never
realized that the loudest word you can yell, is "Hello". I didn't hear the
yelling anymore so eventually I layed back down.
Some time later.. I heard voices yelling again. I again got up. I yelled
Hello, they responded with Hello. We continued doing this as they gradually
got closer. Soon they were close enough, that I heard them yell. "Cindy?" I
yelled back " yes!" and I started crying in relief. ______ got up and came
over to hug me, and then said " I'm sorry Mom, but you stink." And stood
back from me. We both started laughing together. The men yelling, got close
enough to tell me that they were from search and rescue, and that the ranger
and my husband had called them. The dogs with them made it through to Johnny
and I. The men told us to hold on, as they were going to have to cut their
way through to us. By the time they got to us with their chainsaws, it was
the break of dawn, and
we were beginning to be able to see around us.
They led us out of the woods, to their bus, we weren't that far from the
road. They were prepared to treat us for exposure, and injuries. I had
bruises everywhere. I was covered in scrapes and scratches, from head to
foot, but I had no serious injuries. ______ had no bruises, and only one
tiny scratch. Although I had been bone chillingly cold, neither of us was
suffering from exposure.
It wasn't until _____ answered one of our rescuers, who was asking about
how uncomfortable and cold the night had been, that I realized how foolish I
had been. _____ said " I was actually comfortable, and warm. I slept good.
I felt just like I was at home in my bed, under my covers." For a moment I
was stunned, as I realized what had happened, and how, and why. Then remorse
hit me " I am so sorry Lord..... thank you! thank you for watching out for
my son."
A couple of side notes:
The helicopter was a heat seeking helicopter, one of two, they searched for
us until a lack of fuel forced them to stop, and return to base. There were
also all terrain vehicles traveling up and down the beach, and boats in the
water.
Later, when the Rangers followed ______ and my trail, they told us about
two times when we had avoided disaster. Once we were a foot away from the
edge of the cliff, when suddenly we had turned at a right angle and gone off
in another direction, although our trail, had been basically moving in the
same direction up till then. The other was when we had reached the fallen
tree, it was a miracle that we hadn't fallen into the hole left by the roots
being ripped out of the ground, and buried. All I can say, is "praise God!" I have no
other explanation.
Psa 37:8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise
to do evil.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil
speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
[the LORD seeth] not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward
appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our]
sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
I was married to an unbeliever, one who turned into both a alcoholic and a
drug addict. I thought love conquered all, and that I could save him, and
help him know the Lord. God says " Be ye not unequally yoked" I learned why.
You can not
always lead someone to Christ, and they make your relationship with the Lord
more difficult, as they are a constant pull away from the lord. I did not
believe in divorce, so I stayed with him for 18 years. It was not all
negative, but it was a nightmare when he was on a binge... He was like
someone
posessed, and I turned into a person, I did not like.
During one such binge,toward the end. I was working two jobs trying to keep
our heads above water, My husband went through our savings, spent his whole
paycheck, and returned to the house to get money from me. I refused. He
literally ripped my purse from me, took all the money I had, and stormed out
of the house to dissapear. Leaving me with two children to feed, and no
food, or money to get either groceries, or pay the bills.
I was at my wits end, I did not know what to do. I told God that. I told
him I didn't even know what to ask for, and I begged him to help us as he
saw fit, since he knew better than me. I asked him to take charge, as i was
not able to.
The next morning was sabbath, I did not go to church, but as I was studying
and
praying. I looked over at the shelf, and noticed a reference book that I
hadn't
used in awhile. I got it. When I opened it, I found a hundred dollar
bill. Some might say that I had put it there myself, and forgot. I know I
did not.
"Ask, and ye shall receive"
Although I didn't know it at the time, my Mother was also praying for me,
she supposedly didn't know what I was going through, she lived in another
state, and I
didn't tell her. A couple of days later she told me that she had prayed
that God would start closing doors in front of me, as a I was not able to
choose, which way to go. I thought this rather highhanded of her, and of
God, and resented it at the time, because that was what began to happen to
me. :-o
I wanted to go this way, the lord led me that way. way, I thought I should
do "this", the lord showed me "that" " I thought I knew his words, he showed
me other words Eventually there was no place to go,
as I was face to face with God, and all I could say was, " Ok, not my will,
yours." I am opinionated, and stubborn, but not stupid. I realized that my
prayers, and my mother's were actually the same, and God was answering them.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my
ways, saith the LORD.
I left my husband. He moved out soon after, and disapeared. We lived in a
little tiny trailer, that my son ______called "the bomb shelter" I took on
another job, in addition to my others. People ask me how I did it, I can
only say "I didn't, the Lord did" I somehow was not tired, and could do the
things that had to be done, as I worked to pay off the debts I inherited
from my missing husband, and to provide for my children. Once when I had to
make a choice between paying the rent, or buying Groceries and paying part
of the rent. I prayed about it, and then paid my rent. The next day, when
___ and I arrived home, we found a huge box, on the front porch, which
had been left by UPS. There was no return address. When we took it into the
house, we found it was full of non perishable food. So much, that I could
barely fit it in my cabinets. I found out by accident months later that it
had been sent by my sister, she had read between my words to her on the
phone, and been impressed to do so. She had sent it anonymously, because she
did not think I would have accepted her help otherwise.
She also sent money, anonymously, a couple of times, when I needed it the
most, although I had not talked to her, she said she somehow knew. :)
I lived like this for about six months, and then I found out that My husband
was living with another woman, since his last words to me were that he was
off to prove himself to me, because he knew what was important now, and he
really loved me,I had been thinking, and praying that he was off finding
himself, and trying to make things right. It was all I could do to get
through the next couple of weeks, daily I felt worse. All of the bills from
our old address were suddenly added to my new bills, as he had not payed
them, and I was easy to find, and he was not. I couldn't do it. I hit rock
bottom. I finally swallowed my pride, and called my Mom, and told her I
needed help. This is the moment I was talking about when I said that I was
suddenly face to face with God. I had no more choices.
She responded with " I'm coming to get you guys, I don't know how, but I'll
let you know when I call back tomorrow"
She did come to get me and my son's. :) And that is a story all by itself,
as we moved many states away, through the mountains, in the winter... We
lived with her for a year, while we got on our feet again.
The lord has brought me to a place that I am happy; When I left ______
State, I stepped out in faith, I asked the Lord to lead me, and I have seen
nothing but good come from that request.
The day after I arrived in my new state, I had not one job, but two, I
worked both for awhile till my Mom pointed out that it wasn't necessary
anymore.
One night as I prayed, I asked the Lord to take away my pain, as I couldn't
bear it anymore. Every time I thought of my husband, it was a literal ache, I
felt like I was literally being stabbed, and it was all I could do not to
double over with the physical pain. It was hard to take a breath. The next
morning when I awoke, the first thought I had was that I forgave my husband.
The anger and the bitterness were gone. I was ecstatic. I felt like you do
on a beautiful spring morning, when the sun is shining, and the birds are
singing, Yet it was the dead of winter. I was healed! The pain, and the
feelings of inadequacy, and betrayel, and rejection were gone. I had said
the words, but did not really understand them until then. In truly forgiving
John, I was able to be truly healed and to stop hurting. I love him still,
but I am not in love with him anymore. I pray for him, but his memories
cause me no more pain, nor any tears.
Jer 17:14 Heal me, O LORD, and I shall be healed; save me, and I shall be
saved: for thou [art] my praise.
A friend called to tell me of a place for rent, that she believed to be
perfect for me. We went to look at it during my lunchbreak. It was perfect.
It is a huge Brick warehouse type building, with a carved wooden front door.
It has a spiral staircase, 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, a jaccuzi, a study, a
pole barn. etc. It also was being rented for less than any other place I had
looked at. I looked at it, and fell in love. My future landlords looked at
me, and without asking for one reference told me it was mine.
I now live in a tiny town. While moving in, an older man came over, and
offered me the use of his dolly as he said it looked like we needed it. He
dropped it off, said he was going to the city, but we could just leave it on
his backsteps when we were done with it, and gave us directions to his
house.
My car needed new brakes, but with all the overtime I was working I could
not get it to the shop, across the street. The man who owns the bar three
doors down from me came to my door, and said I heard you needed your brakes
fixed. He introduced me to the son of the owner of the shop, who told me he
had called his Dad, and that he would be there two hours early the next day,
to look at my car. It cost me less than half of what I'd expected.
The man who own the tiny store, and bakery, two doors away, gave me a pie
for my children, and welcomed me to the neighborhood.
The tragedy of Sept 11th hit. I was in shock, and then angry, and outraged,
and then heartbroken, how could our country, and our citizens be attacked
like this. How could anyone justify death as an ends to a means? It made me
feel very vulnerable, and confused. Thank God that I have been led to the
place and Job I have now. Including our manager there are only 9 employees
where I work now, some part time. On Sept 12th our boss asked us to join
hands and pray together. we did so, and it was great. We do not belong to
the same churches, nor agree on everything, but we accept each other and we
are one otherwise. We prayed for ourselves, our leaders, for the terrorists,
those who back them, and for the world.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am
I in the midst of them.
I am truly blessed in the place I work, the place I live and in my life. I
can't help but know the God I believe in exists. If not for him. I would not
exist.
"All things work together for them who love the lord"
I think I have written you a book. LOL there is more I could write, but I
must stop somewhere. How do I personally know who God is? I can not
understand, how others do not personally know who he is.
In his infinite love,
Cindy
Johann, You mean well, I hope, but don't you ever, ever, suggest or say again that " I feel sorry for you and pray that you might be able to solve the great hurts you have suffered."
I am less than perfect, and can solve nothing. But I don't need to, my Lord is all powerful and he solves and heals all. MOVE ON. God is good.
Cindy, then don't YOU ever suggest a victim is lying again. :wave:
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
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Has anyone ever considered here that even IF and I say again IF that TS had made mistakes long ago that he is innocent of these charges? It is more than possible it is probable.
Now maybe everyone here that claims christianity should stop the feeding frenzy for awhile and pray for the Shelton's as it is my understanding that TS is in intensive care with another heart episode and another heart cath scheduled. I was told it is his 9th procedure on a heart that has already endured a quadruple bypass and has 6 stents.
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
****************************
Has anyone ever considered here that even IF and I say again IF that TS had made mistakes long ago that he is innocent of these charges? It is more than possible it is probable.
Now maybe everyone here that claims christianity should stop the feeding frenzy for awhile and pray for the Shelton's as it is my understanding that TS is in intensive care with another heart episode and another heart cath scheduled. I was told it is his 9th procedure on a heart that has already endured a quadruple bypass and has 6 stents.
IF that was true Sam, Tommy would have won at trial, right? More of your gossip and lies. And I know for a fact that isn't the case. She was willing to testify that she believed her son, and also testify that she has worried about her own grandson's well-being. Yes, she may have been subpoenaed by Tommy's side, but that don't mean she wouldn't have helped the prosecution.
Also, from what I have been told, Tommy didn't care about the shape that Alex's dad was in, but was determined to have his mother testify, knowing that her husband was not in any shape to be left alone. So, why should one now feel sorry for Tommy? When he obviously didn't care about that family.
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
From what I understand Alex's mother was ready to testify that he qualified for a mental hospital. No mother would do that who truly believed her son was telling the truth. His entire history is one of lies.
And since you aren't a very credible source, what evidence do you have to support your assertion?
Has anyone ever considered here that even IF and I say again IF that TS had made mistakes long ago that he is innocent of these charges? It is more than possible it is probable.
Your assertion is proven false by Tommy's willingness to plead guilty.
Also, we have at least four different individuals in Virginia who have asserted that Tommy engaged in inappropriate behavior toward them. Therefore it is not only possible, it is probable that Tommy is guilty as charged.
Now maybe everyone here that claims christianity should stop the feeding frenzy for awhile and pray for the Shelton's as it is my understanding that TS is in intensive care with another heart episode and another heart cath scheduled. I was told it is his 9th procedure on a heart that has already endured a quadruple bypass and has 6 stents.
Any proof to support your assertion? Or is this merely an attempt to manipulate and gain sympathy for an alleged pedophile, a serial predator who has victimized many individuals in at least three or four states over a period of time spanning decades?
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
*****************************
Has anyone ever considered here that even IF and I say again IF that TS had made mistakes long ago that he is innocent of these charges? It is more than possible it is probable.
Now maybe everyone here that claims christianity should stop the feeding frenzy for awhile and pray for the Shelton's as it is my understanding that TS is in intensive care with another heart episode and another heart cath scheduled. I was told it is his 9th procedure on a heart that has already endured a quadruple bypass and has 6 stents.
IF that was true Sam, Tommy would have won at trial, right? More of your gossip and lies. And I know for a fact that isn't the case. She was willing to testify that she believed her son, and also testify that she has worried about her own grandson's well-being. Yes, she may have been subpoenaed by Tommy's side, but that don't mean she wouldn't have helped the prosecution.
Also, from what I have been told, Tommy didn't care about the shape that Alex's dad was in, but was determined to have his mother testify, knowing that her husband was not in any shape to be left alone. So, why should one now feel sorry for Tommy? When he obviously didn't care about that family.
"Samuelthomas"! You have no idea of what TS has said or cares about or doesn't care about, as you have had zero contact with him! And just because you have had no communication from TS, or any of the Shelton's does not mean that they or any one else does not knows who you. It doesn't mean they aren't acquainted with Alex Walkers patholological lying problems and other personal problems, (big ones) that predate his jumping on Bob Pickle's Band wagon and accusing TS. It doesn't mean his ugly character is not known, or that your ugly one is not revealed by your posts.That doesn't mean others aren't aware that he had no history of claims against TS, and no sign of any problems due to that, prior to Dryden and Pickle, or that they were not present every single time (as in a couple) that he had ever contact with T.S. or could not testify to that, or that it was mean or against their wishes to ask them to tell the truth.
Liars, and Haters are the same as murderers in God's eyes. Do you really think you can live with that? I feel sick.
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so now your insinuating, that I am Alex? :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
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Has anyone ever considered here that even IF and I say again IF that TS had made mistakes long ago that he is innocent of these charges? It is more than possible it is probable.
Now maybe everyone here that claims christianity should stop the feeding frenzy for awhile and pray for the Shelton's as it is my understanding that TS is in intensive care with another heart episode and another heart cath scheduled. I was told it is his 9th procedure on a heart that has already endured a quadruple bypass and has 6 stents.
IF that was true Sam, Tommy would have won at trial, right? More of your gossip and lies. And I know for a fact that isn't the case. She was willing to testify that she believed her son, and also testify that she has worried about her own grandson's well-being. Yes, she may have been subpoenaed by Tommy's side, but that don't mean she wouldn't have helped the prosecution.
Also, from what I have been told, Tommy didn't care about the shape that Alex's dad was in, but was determined to have his mother testify, knowing that her husband was not in any shape to be left alone. So, why should one now feel sorry for Tommy? When he obviously didn't care about that family.
A sentence has been removed. . .
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so now your insinuating, that I am Alex? :ROFL: :ROFL:
NO, I am flat out saying you have an ugly , hateful character, which you have arrogantly dispalyed to all here in the example and words of your own posts *********************
Try and mock and laugh and tell God you aren't, I don't want to hear more lies.
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
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It's the same old story. The Sheltons' modus operandi is to smear those who claim to be victims of Tommy Shelton. It's wrong. It's evil.
But suppose for a moment that your villifying of Alex Walker be true. Sounds like the man I once talked to who was under house arrest who had wanted an Adventist to tell the court that he had a religious duty to discipline his children and wife, and that the court therefore, based on separation of church and state, could not interfere.
The man told me, what was he to do when his kids (perhaps 17 or 18 years of age, I don't recall for sure, but they weren't toddlers) threw things at him. I told him that he had probably taught them to do that, and that thought sobered him up.
So even if some of the victims have made mistakes in their lives, what would that prove? It should be no surprise if Tommy Shelton's behavior has messed up a lot of people's lives. In fact, one staunch defender of Tommy told me they battle with depression thinking about the lives of all the boys that have been messed up because they supported Tommy and called all the boys liars.
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A sentence has been removed. . .
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Edited to remove inappropriate content.
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What truth, Cindy? Be specific. Are you referring to the truth that Sam said such a thing, or are you referring to what he said?
If the latter, post the evidence you have that the statement Sam made was true.Either that or don't call it truth.
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3d, just who are you to try to identify someone when YOU are hiding yourself? You and Sam have both slandered Alex, and deserve to be sued. I'm tired of you calling others liars while defending a sex pervert.
And Cindy, you are an evil, Satanic woman. Just shut up.
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Those adults int he family knew what they doing were wrong. The children were raised like that and just didnt' know any better. Sick people.
The weather here just can't get it together over here by the Bay! LOL!! We are 5-10 degrees cooler than we should be for the season. Our Spring was the same way.
Di,
that is what's so amazing that anyone could live with that for so long and not have the same mental dificiencies pertaining to their choices, --of back and forth. What woman would do this? how could any children live with this and respect their mother or their father. But I knew a family years ago, that lived up the road aways. All had did incest the father with the daughters and brothers and sisters and they all lived a happy go life. about 12 hairbrains. They did not even want them in the schools then. They Never knew they did much wrong. This has got to be the case here in not reasoning out accountability of morals. I cannot believe it entered into National tv. Oh yes, one strange thing, sometimes passing their house, they'd all be sitting out on the porch strummin guitars and singing way off tune and just whatevertune. All thinking they had talent. The "Shelton clan" just don't know or think anything of this magnitude is wrong. It is going to take the court to take em out since the "clan" can't figure out that "keeping up with appearances" just doesn't get it in the right slot. Unbelieveable the posts coming from the other side.
How is the weather where your at Di. All I can say is the garden is one hot spot. Setting in Air right now to cool down but the temp goes up when I see some of this junk....lol
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I was reacting to a report. Something our rules permit without asking your permission.
A sentence has been removed. . .
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Princessdi, Respectfully you do not have any perspective or claim to knowledge here. You have no business saying the adults in the family knew Tommy sinned/molested children and knew better and condeoned/ defended it, or to say such ugly things about them as you have. It's sin, It's wrong. See the deal is they know him, they know the circumstances and they believe he is innocent, and it is they because of your stout words against him and them (lies) who think you are sick.
I have to agree with them, you have no excuse.
I say that for I love you believe it or not.
You are attacking those who try and defend Tommy and justifying and believing accusers and accusations you have no real knowledge of or proof of.
Please, for just once try and consider the other point of view, and if you are wrong how God looks at all of this.
I'm leaving now, this all makes me sick.
Those adults int he family knew what they doing were wrong. The children were raised like that and just didnt' know any better. Sick people.
The weather here just can't get it together over here by the Bay! LOL!! We are 5-10 degrees cooler than we should be for the season. Our Spring was the same way.
Di,
that is what's so amazing that anyone could live with that for so long and not have the same mental dificiencies pertaining to their choices, --of back and forth. What woman would do this? how could any children live with this and respect their mother or their father. But I knew a family years ago, that lived up the road aways. All had did incest the father with the daughters and brothers and sisters and they all lived a happy go life. about 12 hairbrains. They did not even want them in the schools then. They Never knew they did much wrong. This has got to be the case here in not reasoning out accountability of morals. I cannot believe it entered into National tv. Oh yes, one strange thing, sometimes passing their house, they'd all be sitting out on the porch strummin guitars and singing way off tune and just whatevertune. All thinking they had talent. The "Shelton clan" just don't know or think anything of this magnitude is wrong. It is going to take the court to take em out since the "clan" can't figure out that "keeping up with appearances" just doesn't get it in the right slot. Unbelieveable the posts coming from the other side.
How is the weather where your at Di. All I can say is the garden is one hot spot. Setting in Air right now to cool down but the temp goes up when I see some of this junk....lol
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Some of these defenders belong in a hospital, the more I read, the more I am certain of that. I don't mean a medical hospital either. I mean a mental one!
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Has anyone ever considered here that even IF and I say again IF that TS had made mistakes long ago that he is innocent of these charges? It is more than possible it is probable.
Now maybe everyone here that claims christianity should stop the feeding frenzy for awhile and pray for the Shelton's as it is my understanding that TS is in intensive care with another heart episode and another heart cath scheduled. I was told it is his 9th procedure on a heart that has already endured a quadruple bypass and has 6 stents.
IF that was true Sam, Tommy would have won at trial, right? More of your gossip and lies. And I know for a fact that isn't the case. She was willing to testify that she believed her son, and also testify that she has worried about her own grandson's well-being. Yes, she may have been subpoenaed by Tommy's side, but that don't mean she wouldn't have helped the prosecution.
Also, from what I have been told, Tommy didn't care about the shape that Alex's dad was in, but was determined to have his mother testify, knowing that her husband was not in any shape to be left alone. So, why should one now feel sorry for Tommy? When he obviously didn't care about that family.
"Samuelthomas"! You have no idea of what TS has said or cares about or doesn't care about, as you have had zero contact with him! And just because you have had no communication from TS, or any of the Shelton's does not mean that they or any one else does not knows who you. It doesn't mean they aren't acquainted with Alex Walkers patholological lying problems and other personal problems, (big ones) that predate his jumping on Bob Pickle's Band wagon and accusing TS. It doesn't mean his ugly character is not known, or that your ugly one is not revealed by your posts.That doesn't mean others aren't aware that he had no history of claims against TS, and no sign of any problems due to that, prior to Dryden and Pickle, or that they were not present every single time (as in a couple) that he had ever contact with T.S. or could not testify to that, or that it was mean or against their wishes to ask them to tell the truth.
Liars, and Haters are the same as murderers in God's eyes. Do you really think you can live with that? I feel sick.
Not true. You are correct I have not had contact with him in several years. Not since I worked at 3ABN back in 2002. You were not there and I do not feel that I need to answer anything from you. You obvoiusly don't know as much about who "Samuelthomas" is either.
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You have no business saying the adults in the family knew Tommy sinned/molested children and knew better and condeoned/ defended it, or to say such ugly things about them as you have.
See Exhibit H for Doc. 171 (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-171-DVD-Exhibit-H/Folder%201.%20DLS%20Messages%20left%20at%20Ezra%20CoG/).
In these recordings, Danny Lee Shelton, an adult family member of Tommy Ray Shelton, speaks of incidents for which the state of limitations would apply, incidents in connection with allegations of child molestation. Further, Danny was trying to defend Tommy by threatening Dryden into silence, using the same logic that Danny's old buddy Mike Riva unscrupulously incorporated into a cease and desist letter.
Old news.
How then could you make your unsupportable reply to Di?
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Sam- I received a call telling me about your attack, and using my mother to support it.- If you are who I think you are-- you should be ashamed to use my mother to spread your lies. Don't think she isn't aware of what was posted and she is not happy either. I called her and she denies your claim. So if you are going to attack me, please, keep my mother out of it.
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Ok, Nosir Myzing, so I have always said my memory is faulty at times. So somebody please tell me if I am remembering properly. WEre there not letters written to some victims by TS apoloigizing for his actions? I thought there wa something like tha when we were still at BSDA. Once again, I might be wrong........somebody help me while I look for the GenKoba.........LOL!!!
Trouble is TS already admitted to this behavior before. You still are maintaining innocence that TS does not even claim. That is what I am not understanding. He is guilty, Sam and for a lot more than he is admitting.
The bolded statement above is 100% false which makes it "bearing false witness". (what makes it more of a sin, is there is no justification and no excuse for claiming this, as there is no documentation to support this claim from anyone)Tommy Shelton has NEVER admitted to this type of behavior before (child molestation). He has in fact ALWAYS maintained his innocence and despite the plea bargain, he still does.
I do not agree with that decision, but sadly, and reluctantly, I more than understand the reasons for it, all of which haven't been given here, and probably never will be, at least on this earth.
This situation is bad enough from either sides perspective, and there is plenty for you to all celebrate about, without adding lies to it. Rejoice, as "samuelthomas" put it: "By the way, why wouldn't Tommy accept this deal his name is already smeared, and his reputation is way beyond repair." Your Father is no doubt very proud of you all.
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Who is Alex? ST, I thought your name was Sam? LOL!!! Seriously, I know that some were familiar with you when you joined, so 3D, how can you accuse him of being someone else? Are you insinuating that Samuel Thomas would allow this Alex to use their identity? I'm jes askin'............. :dunno:
so now your insinuating, that I am Alex? :ROFL: :ROFL:
NO, I am flat out saying you have an ugly , hateful character, which you have arrogantly dispalyed to all here in the example and words of your own posts **********************
Try and mock and laugh and tell God you aren't, I don't want to hear more lies.
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There ya go Bob! I knew I wasn't crazy. I knew there was something. They used to say that the authorities were not involved, or something about some cursory investigation, or something like that. But Danny knew why his brother had to leave that congregation, and there was defintiely a problem with DS Subsequently having TS working at 3ABN....with the children.......HUGE no-no.
Bob, Am I correct that there was some letter(s) of apology for his appropriate behavior to one or two young men around that time? They do not stop on their own, which is why so many of them returning to society, nobody wants them in their neighborhood, chemically castrated or not.
Even if there wasn't TS HAS(or is expected to shortly) plead guilty to the charges. No one should be talking about him being innocent at this point.
See Exhibit H for Doc. 171 (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-171-DVD-Exhibit-H/Folder%201.%20DLS%20Messages%20left%20at%20Ezra%20CoG/).
In these recordings, Danny Lee Shelton, an adult family member of Tommy Ray Shelton, speaks of incidents for which the state of limitations would apply, incidents in connection with allegations of child molestation. Further, Danny was trying to defend Tommy by threatening Dryden into silence, using the same logic that Danny's old buddy Mike Riva unscrupulously incorporated into a cease and desist letter.
Old news.
How then could you make your unsupportable reply to Di?
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Aaaaaahhhhhh Alex! There you are! Glad to meet your acquaintance, but not under these unfortunate circumstances. :dunno:
Not true. You are correct I have not had contact with him in several years. Not since I worked at 3ABN back in 2002. You were not there and I do not feel that I need to answer anything from you. You obvoiusly don't know as much about who "Samuelthomas" is either.
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Who is Alex? ST, I thought your name was Sam? LOL!!! Seriously, I know that some were familiar with you when you joined, so 3D, how can you accuse him of being someone else? Are you insinuating that Samuel Thomas would allow this Alex to use their identity? I'm jes askin'............. :dunno:
so now your insinuating, that I am Alex? :ROFL: :ROFL:
NO, I am flat out saying you have an ugly , hateful character, which you have arrogantly dispalyed to all here in the example and words of your own posts **********************
Try and mock and laugh and tell God you aren't, I don't want to hear more lies.
3d, was insinuating that I was Alex. I don't have a problem identifying myself, I am Adam McReynolds, and I am a good friend of Alex's. Samuel Thomas was my grandfather's name. Now, that I have identifyed myself, are you willng to do the same, 3d and Sam? No, it would be so much easier for you to insinuate who someone else is wouldn't it? I believe you owe an appology 3d.
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Dang!!!!!! You didn't have to do all that! I said I was jes askin'. LOL!! Well, nice to make your acquaintance also. Adam! :dunno:
Ok, so my next question should be why is it a problem to "be" Alex? IOW, Alex, what is your poart in all this..............y'all got more characters than Y&R.........
BTW, do I have to identitfy myself, too? LOL!!!
3d, was insinuating that I was Alex. I don't have a problem identifying myself, I am Adam McReynolds, and I am a good friend of Alex's. Samuel Thomas was my grandfather's name. Now, that I have identifyed myself, are you willng to do the same, 3d and Sam?
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3D - I see you have got away from all that co-dependent talk you used to push to everyone and now you are resorting to trying to destroy the life of a young man. You are calling Samuelthomas a liar, who are you God that you know so much. People like you really irritate me. You make excuses for Child Molesters and try to put the innocent victims to shame.
You know what really gets me is how you can defend a man who claimed to be a Man of God and used it as an excuse to molest children.
In response to the person who stated that he is sick. You are correct he is sick and it is not his heart I am talking about. It is him as an individual.
3D what would you do if it had been your son that ts defiled. If you are who I think you are he was. If that is the case you should be ashamed of yourself sticking up for a man and not the Baby that God intrusted you with. Who is going to be the one who gives an account go God?
Only you know who you really are just like only samuelthomas knows who he is. Like our Lord said "He who is without sin let him cast the
first stone.
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Di, TS wrote me a letter of apology. It can be found at save-3abn.com.
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Bob, Am I correct that there was some letter(s) of apology for his appropriate behavior to one or two young men around that time?
There are two letters that Tommy wrote to Duane, which we filed with the court, the later one being on http://www.Save-3ABN.com/ (http://www.Save-3ABN.com/). You can find the copies we filed with the court at:
http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf)
http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-19.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-19.pdf)
I think the former one, written in 1996, is almost an admission that Tommy molested boys at Ezra Church of God.
Even if there wasn't TS HAS(or is expected to shortly) plead guilty to the charges. No one should be talking about him being innocent at this point.
You sound so sensible, Di.
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Ok, so my next question should be why is it a problem to "be" Alex? IOW, Alex, what is your poart in all this..............y'all got more characters than Y&R.........
Alex Walker is one of the two alleged victims that came forward and then went to the authorities in Fairfax County, which led to five felony arrest warrants being issued on February 25, 2010, to Tommy's arrest on March 16, 2010, to Tommy's indictment on May 17, 2010, and now to his expected guilty plea on July 19, 2010.
Alex Walker is the younger brother of Brad Walker. Brad works at 3ABN and is married to one of Tommy's two daughters. Brad is reported to have helped convince Tommy to seek help in the late 1990's or 2000 after it came to light that Tommy had allegedly molested Rick, Tommy's adopted son.
Brad reportedly has tried to convince Alex to drop his complaint. Why I don't know. I think that might be called witness tampering, but I don't know for sure. But Brad has not been alone. Reportedly Brenda Walsh has tried to make contact with Alex, and Trenton Chance, Tammy Shelton Chance's son, has also tried to get Alex to back off.
Linda Johnson, who I think is Brenda's sister, tried to encourage the Dunn Loring church in late 2006 or early 2007 to rein in Pastor Dryden, but I haven't heard any hints that she is involved in any current efforts to keep Tommy from receiving his just dues ... assuming that she isn't one of the anonymous Danny clones around here.
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Linda Johnson is Brenda's sister.
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Ian,
I read your account very carefully, a person that gives much relays much whether it be good or bad. Sometimes I write too much but whether I am right or wrong there is no doubt when I'm done that no one is guessing where I stand or come from weighing everything from reasonable standpoint. I can observe much from your story. I can conclude one thing Cindy. You should listen to your mother, listen to your sister and maybe quite thinking how you've been through the mill. Sounds you made all the choices. You made statements about what your mother said and reading your whole account You would be wise to listen to her. Yes, your strongheaded. and in your story my main concern for you is why you did not realize the difference of the way back home was not through the brambles and bushes. To flounder on thru stuff you did not come through to get lost is quite lunatic. No common sense. I would know instantly not to jump in weeds and brambles if I did not come that way. Did you not know when you had to do that it was the wrong way? Why not stay where you could walk after all that is what a hike is. Right. seems this was all
ludicrous. But I am glad something worked for you especially when your son was put into jeopardy. Who would jump in brambles with it so dark that you can't see is beyond my imagination. I would not even go into the bushes and brambles with a child. Yep, you need to be by your mother and quit listening to everyone that smooths you over a little bit. Now I see where and how your life is. I can imagine that your son's need some stability more then they have. Every one makes mistakes but most learn to know what is deceivement. You need to come away from the "Shelton" and their misery. You need to be close to your own family where your boys are safe. I can tell they need that feeling as they get older you may have your hands full. IT is obvious with many many statements you made that you need to go where there is help and I am serious. But a selfish person will not consider her children but lean to their own strongheadedness. or something is keeping you???? shall I guess?
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Di,
I know its hard to keep up but when you see "Sam" I believe that is a different poster then Samuelthomas. But maybe you already discovered that.
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Not true. You are correct I have not had contact with him in several years. Not since I worked at 3ABN back in 2002. You were not there and I do not feel that I need to answer anything from you. You obvoiusly don't know as much about who "Samuelthomas" is either.
Welcome to AdventTalk, Alex! Glad you are here! You are obviously no coward!
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Ian,
Thank you for your personal email and so glad that years have made it better for your life. I never lived away from my mother and she lived with me over 30 years on our farm until she passed in my arms. Family is the best place to be with. That was my personal email back to you of which my email is never blocked to anyone but yours is to me of which I did not know until you surprised me with yours.
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Ian,
Thank you for your personal email and so glad that years have made it better for your life. I never lived away from my mother and she lived with me over 30 years on our farm until she passed in my arms. Family is the best place to be with. That was my personal email back to you of which my email is never blocked to anyone but yours is to me of which I did not know until you surprised me with yours.
Your welcome Tinka, and thank you. Family is best, I agree.
Also I'm sorry I don't know why it was blocked but I'll see if I can fix that. (smile) Have a good evening. :)
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I'm leaving now, this all makes me sick.
Nah nah nah nah
Nah nah nah nah
Hey hey hey
Goodbye! :wave:
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I'm leaving now, this all makes me sick.
Proverbs 13:12 (The Message), 12 Unrelenting disappointment leaves you heartsick,
but a sudden good break can turn life around.
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Oh Cindy! Sorry for the confusion. In that post I was referring to the family in Tinka's post. There are things I said that were unique to that particular situation.
Sorry, Cindy, now with the news of the pleas agreement, I cannot consider anything else but the fact that TS is guilty. The longer people defend and justify his behavior, he won't get the help he needs. I have no reason to want to see this man destroyed, but to see him healed and restored as a child of God. I know that won't happen until he and all around him first admit there is a problem. There is quite a bit to be said for the fact that his lawyers adivsed him to take this plea and not take his chances with a trial. I just can't forget that the proper authorities took their time to investigate TS and found enough evidence.........20+ years later........to charge and endict him. That is not just some folks on the internet making baseless accusations. This is the proper authorities doing an official investigation, and coming up with the same conclusion. Also, Cindy, I believe this might or might not have happened before you entered the picture, but the lack of police involvement and criminal charges, was one of the reasons TS defenders discounted the accusations in the first place. Now, that a thorough police investigation has concur with those accusations, I cannot consider the "other point of view". There are young men who have been suffering all this time.
Princessdi, Respectfully you do not have any perspective or claim to knowledge here. You have no business saying the adults in the family knew Tommy sinned/molested children and knew better and condeoned/ defended it, or to say such ugly things about them as you have. It's sin, It's wrong. See the deal is they know him, they know the circumstances and they believe he is innocent, and it is they because of your stout words against him and them (lies) who think you are sick.
I have to agree with them, you have no excuse.
I say that for I love you believe it or not.
You are attacking those who try and defend Tommy and justifying and believing accusers and accusations you have no real knowledge of or proof of.
Please, for just once try and consider the other point of view, and if you are wrong how God looks at all of this.
I'm leaving now, this all makes me sick.
Those adults int he family knew what they doing were wrong. The children were raised like that and just didnt' know any better. Sick people.
The weather here just can't get it together over here by the Bay! LOL!! We are 5-10 degrees cooler than we should be for the season. Our Spring was the same way.
Di,
that is what's so amazing that anyone could live with that for so long and not have the same mental dificiencies pertaining to their choices, --of back and forth. What woman would do this? how could any children live with this and respect their mother or their father. But I knew a family years ago, that lived up the road aways. All had did incest the father with the daughters and brothers and sisters and they all lived a happy go life. about 12 hairbrains. They did not even want them in the schools then. They Never knew they did much wrong. This has got to be the case here in not reasoning out accountability of morals. I cannot believe it entered into National tv. Oh yes, one strange thing, sometimes passing their house, they'd all be sitting out on the porch strummin guitars and singing way off tune and just whatevertune. All thinking they had talent. The "Shelton clan" just don't know or think anything of this magnitude is wrong. It is going to take the court to take em out since the "clan" can't figure out that "keeping up with appearances" just doesn't get it in the right slot. Unbelieveable the posts coming from the other side.
How is the weather where your at Di. All I can say is the garden is one hot spot. Setting in Air right now to cool down but the temp goes up when I see some of this junk....lol
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LOL!!! I seemed to have been typing before thinking yesterday. Yes, I know that "Sam" and "Samuelthomas" are two different people.
I was just rying to sort out the "Alex" portion.
Di,
I know its hard to keep up but when you see "Sam" I believe that is a different poster then Samuelthomas. But maybe you already discovered that.
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Sam- After conversing with my mother last night she informed me that she was only called to testify about one certain incident. Nothing that had to with "me needing to be hospitalized" as you claim. So I'm challenging you to produce your evidence. To be clear my parents are not happy with you spreading lies and "putting words in their mouth". Not to mention the fact that YOU are using them to attack me.
So produce the evidence Sam.
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A guilty plea rather than a guilty verdict...sounds like he didn't want to play the odds...
Yes, waiting to see how they spin it...
Scratsmom
There were a pile of records, including medical records...state held all the aces and the joker!!! Not the kind of things you want in the public record and filling the minds of a jury of your peers with.
Now let's see just how many "real" civil claims get filed and how many "copy-cat cases" suddenly appear!!! It was always amazing to me how many Altar Boys and Choir Boys show up when these things "settle"!!! Insurers and treasurers will have their hands full trying to discern the real from the fraudsters. Let's just hope the real victims get their fair share of financial awards and medical care!!!
It is too bad that 3ABN did not take the lead many years ago and be a good citizen and make sure restitution was made and medical care provided...what a different story today!!!
I trust Danny is loosing a pile of sleep over this!!! Too bad he cannot send a "love-gift" or two!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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As usual Duane, your slant on things shows you have learned well from pickle. In a case such as this, he would not be allowed to plead no contest. To say you are guilty is a technicality of the court in accepting this type of plea. At his age, with very limited financial resources and with his severe heart condition, I would do the same thing. In no way does it mean he is guilty of these charges.
Are you this deluded??? Have you not heard of "assigned counsel" and the public defender's office??? Money is no object if you are innocent and either you are as un-informed as we have always suspected or delusion from the use of whacky weed!!! So, which is it? Need a detox center or psychiatric assistance???
This is so OVER THE TOP, you should be banned as virtually ILLOGICAL and for Lying beyond reasonability!!! I formally challenge your right to post such VICIOUS LIES!!! A GUILTY PLEA MEANS THIS FILTHY RETCH IS GUILTY AS CHARGED!!!
I am so infuriated I am seeing RED!!! How can this person live with itself??? Rationality simply does not exist and this goes way beyond rules of civility...it is so outrageous it offends the First Amendment!!! IT OFFENDS CHRISTIANITY!!! IT IS MALICIOUS BEYOND ANY STANDARD!!!! HE IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY CONSIDERATION!!!
BAN THIS BEAST!!! IF NOT, THEN I INSIST ON A HEARING!!!
GAILON ARTHUR JOY
AUREPORTER
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Spin it all you want, Sam. Truth of the matter is Tommy Ray Shelton will be a convicted felon, and a convicted sex offender. End of story.
That will not be the end of the story!!! Sin has it's consequences, for the offenders and those who covered it up!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUREPORTER
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I object to Greg Thompson's false and defamatory statement that I have tried to convince, cajole, or pay people to falsely state that they were molested by Tommy Shelton, and I demand that he immediately correct his false statement.
If my request is directed to the wrong individual because Prof. Faber is not Greg Thompson, then Cindy or Prof. Faber can tell me whom I should direct this request to.
I second that DEMAND!!! What a filthy mouth!!! Is this SURMIZING by the purported favored of God...Demons in my book! Produce the first OUNCE of evidence in support of your outrageous claims!!! What a deceiving cultish mind!!!
Come out from behind you COWARDLY mask and at least try and defend your OUTRAGEOUS assertions!!! Or are you as Cowardly as 3ABN???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUREPORTER
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I think it's pretty funny that when someone "actually" comes out to defend themself against these slanderous liars. They run and hide like whooped pups. Sad....
I guess it's much easier to run your mouths behind their back. Shows what a coward some of these defenders are.
Adam
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Has anyone noticed that Sam or 3D haven't been on since July 13? I wonder if TS is really in the intensive care, then maybe they are there with him at the hospital??
Who knows maybe they are just on vacation! :scratch:
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Yes and sam refuses to produce his evidence. Again I challenge you Sam to produce your evidence to your uncalled for statement using my mother to attack me. What do you have to hide? Except the fact that you are a COWARD.
Yes Sam-- I'm calling you out. I'm here now, so show your "proof."
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GJ, I share your....errrrr..... sentiment as far as Sam's post. Hoever, we have to part where you seem not to be able to see Sam even as God sees him, me and you, for that matter. We have to separate the sin from the sinner, and not personalize the sin.
As usual Duane, your slant on things shows you have learned well from pickle. In a case such as this, he would not be allowed to plead no contest. To say you are guilty is a technicality of the court in accepting this type of plea. At his age, with very limited financial resources and with his severe heart condition, I would do the same thing. In no way does it mean he is guilty of these charges.
Are you this deluded??? Have you not heard of "assigned counsel" and the public defender's office??? Money is no object if you are innocent and either you are as un-informed as we have always suspected or delusion from the use of whacky weed!!! So, which is it? Need a detox center or psychiatric assistance???
This is so OVER THE TOP, you should be banned as virtually ILLOGICAL and for Lying beyond reasonability!!! I formally challenge your right to post such VICIOUS LIES!!! A GUILTY PLEA MEANS THIS FILTHY RETCH IS GUILTY AS CHARGED!!!
I am so infuriated I am seeing RED!!! How can this person live with itself??? Rationality simply does not exist and this goes way beyond rules of civility...it is so outrageous it offends the First Amendment!!! IT OFFENDS CHRISTIANITY!!! IT IS MALICIOUS BEYOND ANY STANDARD!!!! HE IS NOT WORTHY OF ANY CONSIDERATION!!!
BAN THIS BEAST!!! IF NOT, THEN I INSIST ON A HEARING!!!
GAILON ARTHUR JOY
AUREPORTER
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Alex, I knew that those must have been rumors flying or the DA would not have gone ahead with the trial. Thank you for being brave enough to come forward and testify. It takes a brave person.
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GJ, I share your....errrrr..... sentiment as far as Sam's post. Hoever, we have to part where you seem not to be able to see Sam even as God sees him, me and you, for that matter. We have to separate the sin from the sinner, and not personalize the sin.
That is where we do go our seperate theological ways...the concept that God seperates the sin from the "sinner" and looks beyond the sin to see all men as "saved" is falacy. If that were the case, the logical conclusion is that we can all be saved in our sin as God will see past the sin...open sin is rebellion against God and cannot be ignored...if the man does not see his sin and is not repentant, then he IS seperated from God and cannot restore that relationship without sensing the sin, the consequences of the sin, and bear the fruits of the repentant sinner. I cannot seperate the sin from the sinner unless the fruits of open and notorious repentance is clear!!! Death is the penalty for open rebellion against God. Clearly, Absent repentance, the sin and the sinner will die together and will be inseperable for eternity.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Confessing your sin means justification by faith and this separates the sin from the sinner. This is basic in our Christian beliefs and in the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Such justification separates the sin from the sinner.
Living in open sin, not confessed towards God and the victims, lingers and keeps the sinner out of the Kingdom.
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Di,
I am again flabbergasted at your theory and it comes from almost complete characterization of justifying in all things. It's almost like "once saved always saved " in all things performed. Have you not read in almost all examples of Bibical experiences and examples that God draws a line "before" you've crossed it..into no eternity? I mean you can claim that the sympathizers really did not do anything but the ground swallowed them up. Some were so evil that God brought on Flood, Then some were so bad that they had to be destroyed lock, stock and women, children , cattle and all that they had. Some thought they could keep a little of the "spoils". There is no slidding by Di. Just like some other things even small that SDA's try to get a way with "keeping up in appearances" as now shown all over Hope channel. I read it and I don't want to believe it as EGW wrote it. But yea, it's before my eyes and it really makes me sick. Now we got the Maury P. show. They have lost all ability to give a sacred, refined, clean cut, show of UNITY of SDA "foundational beliefs. " That is why it was given to the Early message to our for our generation. Can't you just see how the cameraman will focus on it all. I have not figured out why they do it yet. Either it's for to project keeping up with the public or to show the falling denomination and "justifying" rings and things, jiving handclapping, music frustration, and Babylon antics. Where does this have anthing to do with "worshiping God" when examples are set? I have seen some things that are quite good but why mingle it. Confusion to those who been there for 5 G s. I always thought that God never changes so why do we change it??? I for one believe that we are to love our brother in Christ but evil is not the brother to me. My heart always is burdened by the sin and what I do that is sin, but when it is way over the line I put this dude in the place of Manson, and the likes of him. the sin may not be the same but the effects of it are. I do not have sympathy for this sort of 3abn closet stuff now out in plain view. and that is the way evil comes to light to be corrected and then there is those in the path that do just that. It is by providence. Just like in the days of old. Nothing too different here. Same pattern. or....we that know it, if not corrected, blow it....for ourselves that is....
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There were a pile of records, including medical records...state held all the aces and the joker!!! Not the kind of things you want in the public record and filling the minds of a jury of your peers with.
So there are medical records available for Tommy Shelton's victims?
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There were a pile of records, including medical records...state held all the aces and the joker!!! Not the kind of things you want in the public record and filling the minds of a jury of your peers with.
So there are medical records available for Tommy Shelton's victims?
No, there aren't. Think about it, Artiste.
How could there be? Aren't Doctors required to report child abuse or suspected child abuse, etc?
In the past 26 years, nothing was reported with the exception of one boy then who claimed TS verbally propositioned him. ( TS claimed he was trying to get him to admit to sexual impropieties between him and some of the other boys at the school) The boy went home and told his mother Tommy had suggested sexual stuff to him, and she reported it to the police. The police investigated it, the DA knew about it, and they charged Tommy with nothing, His church suspended his ministerial liscence pending that investigation and for improper counselling. No medical records....
Not until 2008 when these 2 men came forward and made complaints against Tommy was anything else ever filed or reported. They allege it happened back in the late 90's, but even their families did not know to even take them to a Doctor etc, so again, no medical records.
I know there are alot of accusations here, but honestly what other medical records would there be? No other "alleged victim" has ever filed or reported anything. And no doctor has either.
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Bob or Gailon--is it true that there are no medical records for any of Tommy Shelton's victims?
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I wish some of you doubters would read what happened in a similar case in the Roman Catholic Church. How the cardinal was questioned, and the answers he gave. The thing had been going on for years, the cardinal knew about it, but just sent the offender to another parish. . .
It would greatly surprise me if any medical records are available. I am personally acquainted with several victims in Europe. They keep it all secret until after they reach maturity. No police nor physician is involved in spite of great mental pain.
This case would be very unusual if there are medical records available.
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Not "saved", GJ..."savable"(This word might have come from the Princess Dictionary. LOL), worthy of His salvation. If He didn't see us that way, He would not have sent His Son to die for us..."While we were yet in our sins.....". God's salvation is a rescue attempt. If we don't grap the rope, get on the boat, etc., we will be lost. Not that we do not have to go through sanctification, we do, But God had and has to see us as worthy of His salvation to have done what He already has, and continues to do for us daily. When do you, as a parent, give up on your child. remember we are God's Children. I thnks God that He does separate the sin from the sinner, and when he lookat me He sees His Child.
This is NOT an argument for "once saved always saved". And sorry for going off topic.....Hehehehe!
That is where we do go our seperate theological ways...the concept that God seperates the sin from the "sinner" and looks beyond the sin to see all men as "saved" is falacy. If that were the case, the logical conclusion is that we can all be saved in our sin as God will see past the sin...open sin is rebellion against God and cannot be ignored...if the man does not see his sin and is not repentant, then he IS seperated from God and cannot restore that relationship without sensing the sin, the consequences of the sin, and bear the fruits of the repentant sinner. I cannot seperate the sin from the sinner unless the fruits of open and notorious repentance is clear!!! Death is the penalty for open rebellion against God. Clearly, Absent repentance, the sin and the sinner will die together and will be inseperable for eternity.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I've said this before, but Illinois doesn't have a "DA." The defenders insist on using that term. We have a State's Attorney and an Attorney General. The case never went as far as the State's Attorney's office because Tommy lied and got the police to believe him.
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Bob or Gailon--is it true that there are no medical records for any of Tommy Shelton's victims?
Gailon was talking about medical records for Tommy for when Brad and Valerie allegedly got Tommy to seek help after Rick allegedly came forward and said that Tommy had molested him.
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Still waiting Sam.... Maybe, I'll see you Monday morning and you can say what you posted to my face. ;D I doubt you would though.
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Bob or Gailon--is it true that there are no medical records for any of Tommy Shelton's victims?
Gailon was talking about medical records for Tommy for when Brad and Valerie allegedly got Tommy to seek help after Rick allegedly came forward and said that Tommy had molested him.
Hmmm... Well I am glad you at least added "allegedly" twice, as I believe this would be very hard, actually near impossible to prove, but Gailon wasn't so careful. He said this like it was a fact and misled folks, Artiste for one:
"There were a pile of records, including medical records...state held all the aces and the joker!!! Not the kind of things you want in the public record and filling the minds of a jury of your peers with. "
That's the kind of thing which ruins people's credibility...
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I wish you all you supporters of TS would get your heads out of the sand and thy to think about how you would feel if it had been you (if you are a male), your son or even your friend or nephew that had been propositioned or molested. Would you be so high and mighty to defend his actions. I can not believe in our society that so many people defend sin and leave justice by the way side.
Do you know what percent of rapes are never reported? according to RAINN (Rape Abuse and Incest National Network) "Sexual assault is one of the most under reported crimes, with 60% still being left unreported."
"Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though they make up about 10% of all victims." The website can be found at
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Other sites I read said it was even higher than that. They said it could be up to 80%.
Another site said :There are different types of abuse. "Intra-famial or incest offenders - These offenders sexually abuse their own children but can also abuse other relatives and neighbors and most have multiple victims. Most incest offenders appear normal and lead average lives. They may continue intimate relationships with wives and girlfriends while molesting children. If discovered or accused by their victims they are often able to talk family and friends out of reporting them. In some cases treatment may be effective."
Pedophiles - Are adults who are sexually attracted to and desire children. Often they may work or volunteer with children in positions such as coaches, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, ministers/priests, school bus drivers, day care providers. Some pedophiles believe they are showing love for the child and do not understand or care that their actions are harmful. They are likely to be single or live with their parents or have a dysfunctional marriage. Most molest many children before they are caught. Treatment is rarely effective."
It also stated that: "Most child molesters are in a position of trust and are often able to undermine the child's ability to accurately perceive the behavior as abusive. Most molesters are also able to convince other adults that it never happened or that the child misunderstood."
This can be found at http://www.fstc.net/facts_info_childmolestation.htm.
This site was so informative I encourage you to go there and read it.
Child abusers, or any abuser, know what they are doing and know how to hide it to get away with it.
Do I believe the alleged abuse charges against TS are true? Yes I absolutely do. He is a very manipulative person who insist his thoughts are correct. He seems to not have the ability to think he could be wrong with his thoughts or actions. Have very many of you ever heard him say I am totally wrong very many times? Honestly think about that!
Do I believe that he can get forgiveness? Yes I absolutely do. Gods grace is available to all. But the bible says in Matthew 5:24 "Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift." (brother in the bible is not referring to a earthly brother.) In my opinion TS has to admit the truth and be ready for the consequences. Especially when it has encompassed 30 some years and so many tween (a child between the ages of 8-12 and teenage young men.
TS did use his position to lure and manipulate these young men. To some he offered to teach them his wonderful gift of piano playing. Even going as far to violate God's church building by abusing these young men in the church.
It is a scary thing for anyone who abuses children. The Bible says in Matthew 18 :1-7:
1. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? 2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me. 6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
I DO NOT want TS to be lost forever and face eternal damnation, but all of us has to keep in mind, but for the grace of God there go I. (I am not just talking about abusing children but all sin) I do want him to find forgiveness from God. Gods grace does cover us but NOT unless we are willing to be humble, honest and make right our wrongs. And I must add that it is imperative that we forsake the sins we are guilty of and not continue in them once we have done all the work to get the forgiveness.
I realize some don't agree that TS should find forgiveness and that is between you and God.
I just want to make sure you understand what I am saying. I believe he can find forgiveness but I also believe that he should be held accountable for his horrifically, appalling actions. There aren't enough words to describe this act but I think you all get the message of how I feel about it.
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Thank you for posting all of info WFJ.
"I wish you all you supporters of TS would get your heads out of the sand and thy to think about how you would feel if it had been you (if you are a male), your son or even your friend or nephew that had been propositioned or molested. Would you be so high and mighty to defend his actions. I can not believe in our society that so many people defend sin and leave justice by the way side.
Do you know what percent of rapes are never reported? according to RAINN (Rape Abuse and Incest National Network) "Sexual assault is one of the most under reported crimes, with 60% still being left unreported."
"Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though they make up about 10% of all victims." The website can be found at
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
Other sites I read said it was even higher than that. They said it could be up to 80%.
Another site said :There are different types of abuse. "Intra-famial or incest offenders - These offenders sexually abuse their own children but can also abuse other relatives and neighbors and most have multiple victims. Most incest offenders appear normal and lead average lives. They may continue intimate relationships with wives and girlfriends while molesting children. If discovered or accused by their victims they are often able to talk family and friends out of reporting them. In some cases treatment may be effective."
Pedophiles - Are adults who are sexually attracted to and desire children. Often they may work or volunteer with children in positions such as coaches, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, ministers/priests, school bus drivers, day care providers. Some pedophiles believe they are showing love for the child and do not understand or care that their actions are harmful. They are likely to be single or live with their parents or have a dysfunctional marriage. Most molest many children before they are caught. Treatment is rarely effective."
It also stated that: "Most child molesters are in a position of trust and are often able to undermine the child's ability to accurately perceive the behavior as abusive. Most molesters are also able to convince other adults that it never happened or that the child misunderstood."
This can be found at http://www.fstc.net/facts_info_childmolestation.htm......" (shortened only for space in my reply)
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You are welcome SSOM! When I re-read my post I didn't like that I put "earthly brother," what I meant was our biological brother.
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Waitingforjustice,
A true Christian cannot help visualizing and comprehending what terrific loss of a human being that will be left out of Eternity. I feel that way also. Although we cannot judge we can somewhat discern and believe that some that had the chance have been passed over long before their demise. In fact many, have made their long life choices even though they still have the chance to repent. But my understanding is if you've been past over and God knows the heart like he did Pharaoh, Judas the Bible calls it the "dead walking around dead". So we cannot judge who they are but their "calamities are their to discern and example where and why " That is about the biggest black hole I can think of. God does not love them anyless and also it breaks his heart they did not chose Him back. In some of his judgements according to Bible He will let some live and live because that is all they will have on this Earth and none of the New Earth to come. Talk about sad yes, but you must realize they chose it. Doesn't it sort of come to realization that most of these molesters, in fact they say none can be recuperated. Just how far did they have to deny God to get there?? All the way and that is where we have to leave it but a Christian is very sympathetic of a lost soul but do not let your sympathy come to mind as this person chose to be a tool of the devil. TS family could not help him, evidently counseling did not help him, in fact he drug his family into it and now his family just as guilty by not having this stopped by reporting. His own siblings could not help him other then hide it. and in his position he held he did not let God help him, so he is at his last hour and what does God say....I will laugh at your calamity! Now you have a glimpse of a black hole. Yes it is horror, but did TS think of that while using wily webs of power on the child. When I looked at his picture I did not see a man!! But his sickness.
corrected misspelled word for "while"
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Good points tinka. I am so glad that I am not God that I make that final determination. I will leave that job to him.
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Good points tinka. I am so glad that I am not God that I make that final determination. I will leave that job to him.
Well, that is right on the judgement but one can only imagine the horror of doom and no eternity, why do something so "intentional " that you jeopodize your fate? I guess if a person is not normal they can't reason and therefore God is the judge of eternal life but here on earth the protectors of life must react too. Maybe it was --ole Grandpa Shelton --that done them all in mentally.
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Good point Tinka, or maybe a close friend. I just shake my head in disbelief alot. How could someone I had faith in, even though I didn't always agree with his thoughts on things, betray our trust. It is so hard for me to trust people anymore. But that is something I work on everyday to trust again. When I get really angry at the whole thing I keep hearing the words, but for the grace of God there go I.
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waitingforjustic,
The perpetrator will suffer the "calamity" of patterns of evil he devised. The victims of their devised evil can only be healed because they can grow into the arms of Jesus to "overcome" their pain of it and in Him they trust. Jesus understands the device of Satan used on the meek.
In these type of patterns there is always a perpetrator and always a victim. and in most evil done in all patterns divised to take, steal and overpower. I am still in disbelief of our situation but also gaining more and more faith each day. But I do know what a life long friend (supposidly) can do and the evil behind their most selfish desires of financial gain. I found in my complete trust of them in the end that they also had mixture of many evil patterns although were viewed as the pillars of church. I know the devestattion and feeling of that. You end up feeling inadiquate to discern, rejected of God to let that happen to you and embarrassed that it did. So It seems at this time in life you just start over. Put it all alway and hope for justice and know you have overcome even when life feels sucked out of you. The worst pain is to see what it does to your loved ones. But we take each day and cherish new beginnings and soon "Jesus has the devise of fading pictures of hurt". This pain we have draws us to the One that loves us most. Embarrassment is one of the emotions we have to know we have a conscience yet that hurries us to Jesus. Only he can guide into new beginnings. Then it becomes a sin to dwell on past of which I am still sort of feeling those edges as we would like a little justice too. IF not for us our children of whom worked side by side with us.
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Another point: People who defend the actions of an abuser, or assist in covering them up, become abusers themselves. They abuse the victims over and over again by not only calling them liars and making them feel like THEY are the ones who are doing wrong by seeking justice, but by making them relive the events that they have tried to hard to move past in their lives.
Also, a person who digs up events from the past and tries to use them for their own personal vendetta against an individual they are fearful or jealous of, is ALSO guilty of abusing victims afresh. Glenn Dryden is a perfect example of this.
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Duane, I think of you all often and I hurt for you and the others victims. But I am proud of you and for the work for the Lord you are doing. There are others I am also proud of because they are overcomers also. God is good and faithful to his servents.
I do agree with you that those who cover up the situation or let it go on are just as guilty as the abuser. Then there are also the ones whom TS hid it from and they believed in him fully. He violated their trust because he knew they had complete turst in him, and he knew he could persuade them on his side. There are those who just looked the other way and I agree they will give account when they stand before God.
You are the an overcomer bought and cleansed by the blood of Jesus! Thank God for his loving hand that reaches down and carries us when we don't think we can get through. I love the footprints in the sand poem it is such an inspiration to me. Sometimes Satan tries to get us to beleive God is not there, but God is always with us ready to lift us up when the storm is raging around us. God only has to say three little words "Peace, be still" and even the wind and waves obey Him. I will continue to pray that God will bless the work you do. Just think of all the lives you are affecting and changing for the good. Keep up the good work you are doing for the Lord.
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I don't have to be careful, just analytical based on the evidence I HAVE!!!
Now, Cindy, are you going to tell us that none of this ever happened??? Be careful not to cross the line of becoming an assessory after the fact!!!
And, No Sir Mizing...your surmizing is admittedly deficient...by the very misnomer of your name...when one is institutionalized, one has medical records and those records are subject to confidentiality...HIPAA certainly guarantees that, unless a doctor is pricked by conscience and actually turns in his client. I don't beleive that was required in the years in question and becomes particularly difficult when one crosses state lines.
But, then, what would you know about that????
G.Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Bob or Gailon--is it true that there are no medical records for any of Tommy Shelton's victims?
Gailon was talking about medical records for Tommy for when Brad and Valerie allegedly got Tommy to seek help after Rick allegedly came forward and said that Tommy had molested him.
Hmmm... Well I am glad you at least added "allegedly" twice, as I believe this would be very hard, actually near impossible to prove, but Gailon wasn't so careful. He said this like it was a fact and misled folks, Artiste for one:
"There were a pile of records, including medical records...state held all the aces and the joker!!! Not the kind of things you want in the public record and filling the minds of a jury of your peers with. "
That's the kind of thing which ruins people's credibility...
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Well Sam, I am pretty sure I know who you are. And if that is the case you will be at the hearing tomorrow. Maybe we can go drink a cup of coffee? :P
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Duane, I think of you all often and I hurt for you and the others victims. But I am proud of you and for the work for the Lord you are doing. There are others I am also proud of because they are overcomers also. God is good and faithful to his servents.
I do agree with you that those who cover up the situation or let it go on are just as guilty as the abuser. Then there are also the ones whom TS hid it from and they believed in him fully. He violated their trust because he knew they had complete turst in him, and he knew he could persuade them on his side. There are those who just looked the other way and I agree they will give account when they stand before God.
You are the an overcomer bought and cleansed by the blood of Jesus! Thank God for his loving hand that reaches down and carries us when we don't think we can get through. I love the footprints in the sand poem it is such an inspiration to me. Sometimes Satan tries to get us to beleive God is not there, but God is always with us ready to lift us up when the storm is raging around us. God only has to say three little words "Peace, be still" and even the wind and waves obey Him. I will continue to pray that God will bless the work you do. Just think of all the lives you are affecting and changing for the good. Keep up the good work you are doing for the Lord.
Thank you so much, wfj. You are correct, there are many who truly believed that TS was completely innocent. I was once one of them. There are also those who refuse to take into account all the years and years of evidence that he is, in fact, guilty of what he is being accused of. Then there are some who simply believe he is innocent because he has been involved with 3ABN, even being called a co-founder by DS.
As you know, wfj, Tommy was my pastor for over 20 years. I think I know just a little bit more about the situation than some of the defenders on here who claim to have never even met him.
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Duane, I think of you all often and I hurt for you and the others victims. But I am proud of you and for the work for the Lord you are doing. There are others I am also proud of because they are overcomers also. God is good and faithful to his servents.
I do agree with you that those who cover up the situation or let it go on are just as guilty as the abuser. Then there are also the ones whom TS hid it from and they believed in him fully. He violated their trust because he knew they had complete turst in him, and he knew he could persuade them on his side. There are those who just looked the other way and I agree they will give account when they stand before God.
You are the an overcomer bought and cleansed by the blood of Jesus! Thank God for his loving hand that reaches down and carries us when we don't think we can get through. I love the footprints in the sand poem it is such an inspiration to me. Sometimes Satan tries to get us to beleive God is not there, but God is always with us ready to lift us up when the storm is raging around us. God only has to say three little words "Peace, be still" and even the wind and waves obey Him. I will continue to pray that God will bless the work you do. Just think of all the lives you are affecting and changing for the good. Keep up the good work you are doing for the Lord.
Thank you so much, wfj. You are correct, there are many who truly believed that TS was completely innocent. I was once one of them. There are also those who refuse to take into account all the years and years of evidence that he is, in fact, guilty of what he is being accused of. Then there are some who simply believe he is innocent because he has been involved with 3ABN, even being called a co-founder by DS.
As you know, wfj, Tommy was my pastor for over 20 years. I think I know just a little bit more about the situation than some of the defenders on here who claim to have never even met him.
As do I, but remember I belong in the looney bin. :ROFL: :ROFL: