There still is no exoneration from the IRS, according to Duffy's letter. And no explanation for Danny's 2005 claim that he had reported a donation of property as cash on his 2003 return.
And according to Duffy's letter, no documents dealing with the 1998 house deal were produced to the IRS.
It appears there are other reporters still interested in this saga.
Adventist Today has reported on the 3abn matter in the past when other Adventist Media were reluctant to even acknowledge the situation.
On July 29th, Marcel Schwantes posted an article titled:
3ABN EXONERATED BY IRS INVESTIGATION
The article is available to Atoday subscribers at the following link:
http://www.atoday.com/content/3abn-exonerated-irs-investigation
For the non-subscriber, the article is as follows:
Adventist Today is in receipt of a letter which addresses a topic which has been of interest to a number of our readers about the
on-going story of the 3ABN ministry. We are attaching this letter (in PDF below) that was recently posted publicly on the 3ABNtalk forum.
Gerald Duffy, an attorney for 3ABN, writes the letter to 3ABN Chairman, Dr. Walter Thompson regarding the nine-month IRS investigation which reviewed all the financial records of 3ABN between 2000-2006.
It appears that, for now, 3ABN and Danny Shelton have been cleared from allegations of financial wrongdoing.
Here are excerpts from the attorney's letter, which you can read by clicking on the link below:
"The offer by the investigating agencies to destroy all of the copies produced brings closure to the investigation in a manner
favorable to 3ABN and Danny Shelton. Contrary to statements being made by enemies of 3ABN and Danny Shelton's ministry,
no adverse actions either civil or otherwise have resulted from the inquiry."
An announcement was also made by 3ABN president, Jim Gilley, on a live broadcast of a 3ABN program a few weeks ago. Gilley
states on the program that "our attorneys called with the very good news that the investigation was now complete. it was over. That is right. We were found to not have any adjustments which needed to be made. There were no penalties put upon us, nor on Danny Shelton. We were all found to be totally square and above board."
*************
In order to avoid breaking any forum rules I have removed the link to the 3abntalk forum but the Atoday article does directly link to the Duffy letter located at the 3abntalk web site.
Although there will still be those who doubt what seems to be a reality, the story has now found acceptance in the Adventist media and by reporters who I think we can fairly assume check their facts before publishing.
Adventist Today is reporting news. The news is that Duffy wrote a letter and Gilley made an announcement. There is only one comment in there that seems to be commentary and that one is modified with the word "appears." They are doing their job reporting the news as they should.
Danny and Walt have have had harsh words for them in the past and probably will in the future. Sometimes folks want their side and only their side reported, and only in a manner that will vilify the other side and sanctify their own, but Adventist Today is simply reporting what they see.
Problem is that there is yet to be any word from the IRS that 3ABN is exonerated. So the headline is misleading.
"I repeat, there is no U.S. presence in Baghdad."
—Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, (AKA Bahgdad Bob")
Problem is that there is yet to be any word from the IRS that 3ABN is exonerated. So the headline is misleading.
"I repeat, there is no U.S. presence in Baghdad."
—Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, (AKA Bahgdad Bob")
OK, I see what you're saying. Just because Ronnie Shelton, Jim Gilley, Doug Batchelor, Gerald Duffy or anyone else denies that there are infractions, it doesn't mean they aren't there.
Jeanette, could you please explain what you mean?
The simple fact is that, according to Duffy's letter, the IRS has not issued any statement saying that they could not find one infraction or one discrepancy in all of Danny's and 3ABN's books. Unless there is something more, based on what has been stated thus far, the IRS has therefore not exonerated 3ABN.
Gailon and Bob:
My post was merely meant to point out that Bob misrepresented what Appletree actually wrote. Whether or not Bob's take describes what happened is not the issue.
However, Appletree did not write what Bob claims he wrote in the subject line: "AppleTree says IRS removed 1000's of documents from 3ABN)"! And it does not look good for truth-seekers to misrepresent/spin what others wrote.
Gailon wrote:QuoteAdd to this that we have reports from witnesses stating that the IRS took out several boxes of documents and have interviewed most of the financial office staff and several others in Administration and you have Appletree stating rare historical facts that do not appear factually challenged. We even know that financial staff are under the strictest orders not to speak to anyone regarding anything that has happened and we are told this order came from both sides!!!
This may very well be true. However, I am less likely to believe either you or Bob when I see misrepresentations like those of Appletree's post. How do I know that what you report as fact -- as Bob did in the title of this thread-- is not similarly spun from scanty evidence?
All who wish to defend the truth need to be scrupulously truthful.
Although others report that they have been contacted by the IRS, .... The IRS may well have exonerated 3ABN just as others have reported.
QuoteAlthough others report that they have been contacted by the IRS, .... The IRS may well have exonerated 3ABN just as others have reported.
I think you are missing the point. The way Duffy and Gilley put it, the IRS has not told anyone that Danny and 3ABN are exonerated. If you think a source that has claimed to have been contacted by the IRS has been told by the IRS that Danny and 3ABN are exonerated, provide a quote that says so.
As to Inga's opinion, she's entitled to her opinion, but I believe she is wrong. I believe that AppleTree did indeed admit that the IRS had removed thousands of records from 3ABN. But that doesn't mean that I have any less respect for Inga because we have a difference of opinion.
Looks like apples and oranges to me. If the IRS had actually made some sort of statement and that statement was interpreted to mean that 3ABN was exonerated, then maybe it would be comparable to my position that AppleTree said that thousands of documents had been removed. Or, if folks would confine their statements to "Duffy claims IRS investigation over," or "Duffy claims IRS exonerates 3ABN and Danny," then it would be comparable.
I think you are missing the point. The way Duffy and Gilley put it, the IRS has not told anyone that Danny and 3ABN are exonerated. If you think a source that has claimed to have been contacted by the IRS has been told by the IRS that Danny and 3ABN are exonerated, provide a quote that says so.
It is your opinion that I am missing the point because I am not coming to the same conclusion that you are.
Of course it does. You seem to see apples where there are oranges, and then attempt to make lemonade out of it all. Your conclusions would be less objectionable if you would present them as opinions instead of as the irrefutable truth.
Your opinions might hold more weight if you spoke them in a less annoying and repetitive manner.
Bonnie,
What sort of announcement were you thinking of?
Preachers and members have a God-given right and responsibility to call sin by its right name, suit or no suit. The day will come when laws will be passed in America that will take away that right. Will we cave when that day comes, or will we continue to exercise that God-given right and responsibility?
The suit makes specific claims that puts at issue lots of allegations that the IRS would have no interest is. That being so, the courtroom will have an interest over whether Danny Shelton had biblical grounds for divorce, and, I believe, whether Danny Shelton covered up the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton.
Thus far, no one has produced anything in the way of an IRS ruling. We must remember that.
Btw, the name of this thread says that AT is approved. Approved by who? I don't think 3ABN or Danny have ever approved of them.
Btw, the name of this thread says that AT is approved. Approved by who? I don't think 3ABN or Danny have ever approved of them.
Btw, the name of this thread says that AT is approved. Approved by who? I don't think 3ABN or Danny have ever approved of them.
Intersting point Habanero. I can't really see DS 'approving' AT!
However, he may be 'using' them for his own ends? :oops:
Intersting point Habanero. I can't really see DS 'approving' AT!
However, he may be 'using' them for his own ends? :oops:
How sad. It would see Ozzie that you also belong to the cult of Danny Shelton. Who else would continue to attribute to him such power over others? Maybe you had better warn AT and Mr. Schwantes you are on to something. :oops:
Earlier I posted a comment to the effect that I knew two peple who worked for the IRS. They had told me that the comments regarding the IRS investigation of 3-ABN having ended accurately described how the IRS Works.
Today I spoke to a male (For those who are interested.) attorney who has worked on litigation against the IRS in his law practice. [NOTE: I am saying that this attorney has worked in this area and can therefore be considered to have some knowledge.] I described to him what is being said by those who say that the IRS criminal/civil investigation is over and that 3-ABN has been cleared and I asked him to comment on those statements.
His comment was: What you have described is consistent what I have seen my my law practice as I have worked on cases that involved the IRS. That is how the IRS operates.
Folks, people whom I trust, are not involved in any way with 3-ABN (They are objective), and have personal knowledge as to how the IRS works lead me to blieve that the IRS has cleared 3-ABN of criminal/civil wrong doing.
I believe the issue regarding the IRS is over. I believe that 3-ABN has been cleared. Personally I believe that there were two flaws in the charges that people made against 3-ABN and Danny Shelton:
1) The people who made the charges did not know what evidence existed that 3-ABN/Danny Shelton had to rebut the charges. Folks, a one sided knowledge of an event is not enough to convict someone. I would say that 3-ABN made this same error in some of their handeling of charges against Linda Shelton. Now, in my opinion, some who have charged 3-ABN have committed the same error. One side of the issue is neither fair nor enough to convict. One must know and understand all sides of an issue before a decision is made.
2) I have been told by competent legal counsel that some of the IRS charges made against 3-ABN (specificly the sale of the house) were based upon a failure to understand the tax consequences of a property transaction that involved a "life estate." But, once I am told that pople making a specific charge do not properly understand a major aspect of the tax law as it applied to the transaction, I have to assume that those making other charges may (?) not understand other aspects of tax law.
My personal opinon: Folks, like it or not, the IRS tax isssues are over. 3-ABN apears to have been cleared on the criminal and civil front. Get on with your lives. In overall summary, while the IRS did not consider other charges not related to tax issues, the failure of the charges related to IRS issues to be sustained is a major wound to the other charges. If people making the charges can not get right an issue that is founded in established law and written records, most people will begin to question other charges that are more subjective. If your are wrong in this, who is to say you are correct on other issues?
Intersting point Habanero. I can't really see DS 'approving' AT!
However, he may be 'using' them for his own ends? :oops:QuoteHow sad. It would see Ozzie that you also belong to the cult of Danny Shelton. Who else would continue to attribute to him such power over others? Maybe you had better warn AT and Mr. Schwantes you are on to something. :oops:
Wow. At last we have someone acknowledging that DS has a cult-like following. A following that believes that he is anointed by God. That he is like Moses. That even if he is found to be doing evil, that is OK, because he's the 'anointed'.
About time that is is acknowledged that he has a following who believe that evil is good, that black is white;
that trashing one's ex-wife in front of the world is OK;
that diddling the books is fine;
that using donations for God's work to sue fellow Christians is fine;
that scaring his then-wife with a firearm is the hallmark of a loving husband;
threatening other Christians who might go to a Camp Meeting is quite legit.
Yes. So sad that people can follow people like DS, David Koresh and others, but it's good to see that quaddie47 acknowledges that is so. :'(
I can't understand the mentality of cult followers (or their leaders), but it is a relief to know that others are finally seeing it and that he 'uses' those people for his own ends. Thank you for pointing that out quaddie. :TY:
As for this Mother Duck, there's no way that I'll be leaning that way nor following like a hypnotised sheep. No siree![/b]
Now to me, this just appears to be some common sense reasoning. Obviously others try and reason in a different direction.
Now to me, this just appears to be some common sense reasoning. Obviously others try and reason in a different direction.
And others make wild accusations and never produce proof. Still waiting, Sam.
Intersting point Habanero. I can't really see DS 'approving' AT!
However, he may be 'using' them for his own ends? :oops:QuoteHow sad. It would see Ozzie that you also belong to the cult of Danny Shelton. Who else would continue to attribute to him such power over others? Maybe you had better warn AT and Mr. Schwantes you are on to something. :oops:
Wow. At last we have someone acknowledging that DS has a cult-like following. A following that believes that he is anointed by God. That he is like Moses. That even if he is found to be doing evil, that is OK, because he's the 'anointed'.
Refreshing to see you actually posting more than your standard smilie filled, giddily tacit echos and cut downs.QuoteAbout time that is is acknowledged that he has a following who believe that evil is good, that black is white;
Applying the breaks to look at your statements a little more closely... Whose thoughts are you parroting? Whose information have you taken as gospel?Quotethat trashing one's ex-wife in front of the world is OK;
Not at all okay.... but then, it's okay to turn around and trash him, his chairman and the 3abn BOD, any of his supporters or family members as well as anybody who sees things differently than your leaders do in front of the whole world?Quotethat diddling the books is fine;
This just may not turn out to be true, no matter how often Bob says it is so. I think we're going to have to wait and see on this one as that whole IRS clearing 3ABN just might be true.Quotethat using donations for God's work to sue fellow Christians is fine;
3abn is a private ministry. It was built by the Shelton's, both Danny and Linda and others in the family. It is not a part of the SDA deonomination even though the message they share is the one many conservative SDAs believe in and practice. The donations they receive are given to support the ministry. If the ministry must take legal measures, why is it a "sin" to use money that donors have donated to support this private ministry? Why? Because Bob and Gailon have represented it as a sin to do so. Our SDA denomination most likely has a budget for legal needs. Where does that money come from? Tithes and offerings? If you step back a bit, Ozzie, perhaps you might see that Bob and Gailon went too far in their campaign to return 3abn to its conservative roots. There are right ways to handle sin in others and there are wrongs ways as well. IMO, Bob and Gailon diverted from ethical measures in their crusade and a lot of you bought it, hook line and sinker.Quotethat scaring his then-wife with a firearm is the hallmark of a loving husband;
Did he brandish this firearm in her face or threaten her with it? It was in the house. As I recall this story, Linda was afraid that Danny was getting so unbalanced during the unraveling of their marriage that she was concerned about the gun he had, so she hid it.Quotethreatening other Christians who might go to a Camp Meeting is quite legit.
Whether it was kind or not, it was certainly legit. This wasn't a case of Johann and Arild having an entitlement or a right to gather upon public property during that 2004 campmeeting, even though I believe their motives were good. 3ABN is a private ministry and, as such they can determine who they want to allow to attend their campmeetings and who they don't.QuoteYes. So sad that people can follow people like DS, David Koresh and others, but it's good to see that quaddie47 acknowledges that is so. :'(
I can't understand the mentality of cult followers (or their leaders), but it is a relief to know that others are finally seeing it and that he 'uses' those people for his own ends. Thank you for pointing that out quaddie. :TY:
As for this Mother Duck, there's no way that I'll be leaning that way nor following like a hypnotised sheep. No siree![/b]
And yet, you have bought everything that Bob and Gailon have been selling. You probably now believe that Sam is the "miscreant pastor hunter" as Gailon has concluded instead of Sam being Danny as he, and then you, used to espouse. You probably believe that Gailon is telling the truth about Gregory Matthews betraying him and then Linda, simply because Gailon said so.
Might be a good idea for you to do some research into understanding the mind of a cult leader so you can start to think and see for yourself.
Thank you, GrandmaNettie.Now to me, this just appears to be some common sense reasoning. Obviously others try and reason in a different direction.
And others make wild accusations and never produce proof. Still waiting, Sam.
Duane, I know it may not help, but I believe you. I read the email and your statements, as well as your posts, and I believe you were manipulated into doing something you did not want to do by a person in authority that you trusted.
Sam, for some reason, cannot grasp that a 19-year-old would not be consenting in a situation like this. Perhaps someday Sam will more fully understand how this can and does happen.
A pastor friend of mine preached a wonderful sermon recentlly about relationships and the parable of the fig tree. Many have misunderstand this parable and say it relates to the Children of Israel losing their place as God's people, or something along those lines. Let's look at the verses; Mark 11: 12 - 14:
"12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it. "
What my pastor friend suggested this meant was "If you go to the fig tree when it is not the time for figs, don't be upset when you don't get figs." In other words, don't expect what another cannot give. For whatever reason, Sam does not grasp that you were a victim, even at the ripe old age of 19. Perhaps someday Sam will understand. Just don't expect something from Sam that Sam cannot give.
Now to me, this just appears to be some common sense reasoning. Obviously others try and reason in a different direction.
And others make wild accusations and never produce proof. Still waiting, Sam.
Duane you are not proving a thing by trying to antagonize me. I know what I read on BSDA on another forum..I believe it was christian forums, could be wrong. In many posts you didn't tell the truth by omission. Do I want to waste my time by searching for what I know I read? Not hardly. But, I read several post where someone "sympathized" as they had been molested as a child. You answered those posts in an appreciative way without ever mentioning that you were not a child. As far as I'm concerned that is being dishonest. You did the exact same thing when you first started posting at BSDA by calling yourself ex employee. It gave the impression that you knew what you were talking about in regards to 3abn and day to day operations. You failed to mention that you had not been an employee for 20+ years when you worked at the old original building with a skeleton crew. You didn't mention that you had never sat foot inside the "new" 3abn with a work force of 140 people and therefore had no knowedge of anything that applied to present day 3abn or the people there.
That fact in itself shoots down your other claims that "you know Danny" and you were told "all the Shelton's knew" etc etc. You don't know someone that you haven't had contact with in 20 years and had very limited contact before that. You don't know what the Shelton's know or didn't know if you haven't had contact with any of them personally. Not to mention there are a lot of Shelton's but you just group the family together as a whole. What if I said "All the Clems think you shouldn't have been taken off of the bus ministry". Maybe some of them do and maybe some of them don't. How could I know when I haven't talked to any of the clems. People can say anything...doesn't make it so and the public is finding that out.
There are a lot more discrepancies I have seen from you but won't waste time pointing them out. I've made up my mind about what is truth and your omissions or claims aren't a factor in my conclusions.
From this post, it appears to me that some here are less concerned with the issues at 3ABN and more concerned with attacking Bob and Gailon.
It reminds me of the time I asked a friend who he was rooting for in a Dallas Cowboys football game. His answer - "Whoever they are playing."Intersting point Habanero. I can't really see DS 'approving' AT!
However, he may be 'using' them for his own ends? :oops:QuoteHow sad. It would see Ozzie that you also belong to the cult of Danny Shelton. Who else would continue to attribute to him such power over others? Maybe you had better warn AT and Mr. Schwantes you are on to something. :oops:
Wow. At last we have someone acknowledging that DS has a cult-like following. A following that believes that he is anointed by God. That he is like Moses. That even if he is found to be doing evil, that is OK, because he's the 'anointed'.
Refreshing to see you actually posting more than your standard smilie filled, giddily tacit echos and cut downs.QuoteAbout time that is is acknowledged that he has a following who believe that evil is good, that black is white;
Applying the breaks to look at your statements a little more closely... Whose thoughts are you parroting? Whose information have you taken as gospel?Quotethat trashing one's ex-wife in front of the world is OK;
Not at all okay.... but then, it's okay to turn around and trash him, his chairman and the 3abn BOD, any of his supporters or family members as well as anybody who sees things differently than your leaders do in front of the whole world?Quotethat diddling the books is fine;
This just may not turn out to be true, no matter how often Bob says it is so. I think we're going to have to wait and see on this one as that whole IRS clearing 3ABN just might be true.Quotethat using donations for God's work to sue fellow Christians is fine;
3abn is a private ministry. It was built by the Shelton's, both Danny and Linda and others in the family. It is not a part of the SDA deonomination even though the message they share is the one many conservative SDAs believe in and practice. The donations they receive are given to support the ministry. If the ministry must take legal measures, why is it a "sin" to use money that donors have donated to support this private ministry? Why? Because Bob and Gailon have represented it as a sin to do so. Our SDA denomination most likely has a budget for legal needs. Where does that money come from? Tithes and offerings? If you step back a bit, Ozzie, perhaps you might see that Bob and Gailon went too far in their campaign to return 3abn to its conservative roots. There are right ways to handle sin in others and there are wrongs ways as well. IMO, Bob and Gailon diverted from ethical measures in their crusade and a lot of you bought it, hook line and sinker.Quotethat scaring his then-wife with a firearm is the hallmark of a loving husband;
Did he brandish this firearm in her face or threaten her with it? It was in the house. As I recall this story, Linda was afraid that Danny was getting so unbalanced during the unraveling of their marriage that she was concerned about the gun he had, so she hid it.Quotethreatening other Christians who might go to a Camp Meeting is quite legit.
Whether it was kind or not, it was certainly legit. This wasn't a case of Johann and Arild having an entitlement or a right to gather upon public property during that 2004 campmeeting, even though I believe their motives were good. 3ABN is a private ministry and, as such they can determine who they want to allow to attend their campmeetings and who they don't.QuoteYes. So sad that people can follow people like DS, David Koresh and others, but it's good to see that quaddie47 acknowledges that is so. :'(
I can't understand the mentality of cult followers (or their leaders), but it is a relief to know that others are finally seeing it and that he 'uses' those people for his own ends. Thank you for pointing that out quaddie. :TY:
As for this Mother Duck, there's no way that I'll be leaning that way nor following like a hypnotised sheep. No siree![/b]
And yet, you have bought everything that Bob and Gailon have been selling. You probably now believe that Sam is the "miscreant pastor hunter" as Gailon has concluded instead of Sam being Danny as he, and then you, used to espouse. You probably believe that Gailon is telling the truth about Gregory Matthews betraying him and then Linda, simply because Gailon said so.
Might be a good idea for you to do some research into understanding the mind of a cult leader so you can start to think and see for yourself.
Earlier I posted a comment to the effect that I knew two peple who worked for the IRS. They had told me that the comments regarding the IRS investigation of 3-ABN having ended accurately described how the IRS Works.
Today I spoke to a male (For those who are interested.) attorney who has worked on litigation against the IRS in his law practice. [NOTE: I am saying that this attorney has worked in this area and can therefore be considered to have some knowledge.] I described to him what is being said by those who say that the IRS criminal/civil investigation is over and that 3-ABN has been cleared and I asked him to comment on those statements.
His comment was: What you have described is consistent what I have seen my my law practice as I have worked on cases that involved the IRS. That is how the IRS operates.
Folks, people whom I trust, are not involved in any way with 3-ABN (They are objective), and have personal knowledge as to how the IRS works lead me to blieve that the IRS has cleared 3-ABN of criminal/civil wrong doing.
I believe the issue regarding the IRS is over. I believe that 3-ABN has been cleared. Personally I believe that there were two flaws in the charges that people made against 3-ABN and Danny Shelton:
1) The people who made the charges did not know what evidence existed that 3-ABN/Danny Shelton had to rebut the charges. Folks, a one sided knowledge of an event is not enough to convict someone. I would say that 3-ABN made this same error in some of their handeling of charges against Linda Shelton. Now, in my opinion, some who have charged 3-ABN have committed the same error. One side of the issue is neither fair nor enough to convict. One must know and understand all sides of an issue before a decision is made.
2) I have been told by competent legal counsel that some of the IRS charges made against 3-ABN (specificly the sale of the house) were based upon a failure to understand the tax consequences of a property transaction that involved a "life estate." But, once I am told that pople making a specific charge do not properly understand a major aspect of the tax law as it applied to the transaction, I have to assume that those making other charges may (?) not understand other aspects of tax law.
My personal opinon: Folks, like it or not, the IRS tax isssues are over. 3-ABN apears to have been cleared on the criminal and civil front. Get on with your lives. In overall summary, while the IRS did not consider other charges not related to tax issues, the failure of the charges related to IRS issues to be sustained is a major wound to the other charges. If people making the charges can not get right an issue that is founded in established law and written records, most people will begin to question other charges that are more subjective. If your are wrong in this, who is to say you are correct on other issues?
Speaking to you as a member and not a moderator, Snoopy, isn't it rather condescending to speak to Sam using "sammy"? Aren't we endeavoring to post our opinions respectfully?
There still is no exoneration from the IRS, according to Duffy's letter. And no explanation for Danny's 2005 claim that he had reported a donation of property as cash on his 2003 return.
And according to Duffy's letter, no documents dealing with the 1998 house deal were produced to the IRS.
Duane you are not proving a thing by trying to antagonize me. I know what I read on BSDA on another forum..I believe it was christian forums, could be wrong. In many posts you didn't tell the truth by omission. Do I want to waste my time by searching for what I know I read? Not hardly. But, I read several post where someone "sympathized" as they had been molested as a child. You answered those posts in an appreciative way without ever mentioning that you were not a child. As far as I'm concerned that is being dishonest.
You did the exact same thing when you first started posting at BSDA by calling yourself ex employee. It gave the impression that you knew what you were talking about in regards to 3abn and day to day operations. You failed to mention that you had not been an employee for 20+ years when you worked at the old original building with a skeleton crew.
You didn't mention that you had never sat foot inside the "new" 3abn with a work force of 140 people and therefore had no knowedge of anything that applied to present day 3abn or the people there.
That fact in itself shoots down your other claims that "you know Danny" and you were told "all the Shelton's knew" etc etc. You don't know someone that you haven't had contact with in 20 years and had very limited contact before that. You don't know what the Shelton's know or didn't know if you haven't had contact with any of them personally. Not to mention there are a lot of Shelton's but you just group the family together as a whole.
What if I said "All the Clems think you shouldn't have been taken off of the bus ministry". Maybe some of them do and maybe some of them don't. How could I know when I haven't talked to any of the clems. People can say anything...doesn't make it so and the public is finding that out.
There are a lot more discrepancies I have seen from you but won't waste time pointing them out. I've made up my mind about what is truth and your omissions or claims aren't a factor in my conclusions.
The IRS doesn't issue "official" letters, but they also do not like or even at times allow commentary by those being investigated - yet they have allowed Atty. Duffy to comment on this issue. Why? Possibly because an effective request was made, based on the fact that your false allegations need to be addressed, and granted.
Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy, yourself, and others have attempted to get others to believe that there is not clearance by the IRS, but time and again, individuals of far greater integrity have substantiated the claims. Even Fran has demonstrated she is afraid to share the information form her inside informants in the IRS (think they could get fired for sharing with her information?) . . . why is she afraid, maybe because she has already discovered the that the information out there is T R U E! Something you wouldn't ever want to face, much less admit! Get used to having your scurrilously allegations being disproved as it is going to become a regular experience.
You can go ahead and yammer on about what "you" think needs to be addressed, but based on all the information submitted to the IRS by you, Fran, and others . . . somehow it seems impossible that they "missed" anything. It would make sense, when one considers the IRS thorough behavior, that if they thought there was something to dig into they would have dug into it . . . so, IF they found something amiss in the years stated thus far, they would have dug into past, no ALL years concerned . . . but it is evident they didn't find anything amiss, didn't dig into other years and you are left with nothing but your H o l l o w (can you hear the echo) claims that you tenaciously cling to hoping you won't look foolish in the end.There still is no exoneration from the IRS, according to Duffy's letter. And no explanation for Danny's 2005 claim that he had reported a donation of property as cash on his 2003 return.
And according to Duffy's letter, no documents dealing with the 1998 house deal were produced to the IRS.
Earlier I posted a comment to the effect that I knew two peple who worked for the IRS. They had told me that the comments regarding the IRS investigation of 3-ABN having ended accurately described how the IRS Works.
Today I spoke to a male (For those who are interested.) attorney who has worked on litigation against the IRS in his law practice. [NOTE: I am saying that this attorney has worked in this area and can therefore be considered to have some knowledge.] I described to him what is being said by those who say that the IRS criminal/civil investigation is over and that 3-ABN has been cleared and I asked him to comment on those statements.
His comment was: What you have described is consistent what I have seen my my law practice as I have worked on cases that involved the IRS. That is how the IRS operates.
Folks, people whom I trust, are not involved in any way with 3-ABN (They are objective), and have personal knowledge as to how the IRS works lead me to blieve that the IRS has cleared 3-ABN of criminal/civil wrong doing.
I believe the issue regarding the IRS is over. I believe that 3-ABN has been cleared. Personally I believe that there were two flaws in the charges that people made against 3-ABN and Danny Shelton:
1) The people who made the charges did not know what evidence existed that 3-ABN/Danny Shelton had to rebut the charges. Folks, a one sided knowledge of an event is not enough to convict someone. I would say that 3-ABN made this same error in some of their handeling of charges against Linda Shelton. Now, in my opinion, some who have charged 3-ABN have committed the same error. One side of the issue is neither fair nor enough to convict. One must know and understand all sides of an issue before a decision is made.
2) I have been told by competent legal counsel that some of the IRS charges made against 3-ABN (specificly the sale of the house) were based upon a failure to understand the tax consequences of a property transaction that involved a "life estate." But, once I am told that pople making a specific charge do not properly understand a major aspect of the tax law as it applied to the transaction, I have to assume that those making other charges may (?) not understand other aspects of tax law.
My personal opinon: Folks, like it or not, the IRS tax isssues are over. 3-ABN apears to have been cleared on the criminal and civil front. Get on with your lives. In overall summary, while the IRS did not consider other charges not related to tax issues, the failure of the charges related to IRS issues to be sustained is a major wound to the other charges. If people making the charges can not get right an issue that is founded in established law and written records, most people will begin to question other charges that are more subjective. If your are wrong in this, who is to say you are correct on other issues?
Two questions, Mr Matthews:
1) Did your "competent counsel" tell you whether the IRS issues a file closed letter? And if so, where is it? Wouldn't you want to see that file closed letter, Mr Gregory, before you came to such a strong opinion?
2) Since the IRS has "exonerated 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton", would you recommend and expect that they would add the IRS investigators to the 3ABN and DLS Witness list? Now that would be a real feather in their cap to bring in the investigative staff to testify on behalf of 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton. Particularly since they "did not find a single thing wrong" Would not even debate the relevance of such an important witness, would you?
Well let me make it clear that we have already added one to our list and that is how certain we are that YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!!!
They are not cleared on the civil front, Mr Matthews, and we are CERTAIN of it!!! I do not have clarity on the criminal question and I am not convinced 3ABN does either and your statements are PURE CONJECTURE at the very best. Your analysis is clearly challenged and based upon incomplete, self induced prejudice and a fear driven need to stay out of the fray. But be sure to ask your "competent legal counsel" if a file simply closes with a request for document return without an inocuous file closed notice? Then analyse again. Practice makes perfect, they say!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
It might be, GrandmaNettie. But, with the standard you and Sam have set with the way you both address Gailon and Bob, I would say I am NOT EVEN CLOSE to being condescending. And I might also have to refer you back to your very own "PKB Syndrome"...
Speaking to you as a member and not a moderator, Snoopy, isn't it rather condescending to speak to Sam using "sammy"? Aren't we endeavoring to post our opinions respectfully?
Intersting point Habanero. I can't really see DS 'approving' AT!
However, he may be 'using' them for his own ends? :oops:QuoteHow sad. It would see Ozzie that you also belong to the cult of Danny Shelton. Who else would continue to attribute to him such power over others? Maybe you had better warn AT and Mr. Schwantes you are on to something. :oops:
Wow. At last we have someone acknowledging that DS has a cult-like following. A following that believes that he is anointed by God. That he is like Moses. That even if he is found to be doing evil, that is OK, because he's the 'anointed'.
Refreshing to see you actually posting more than your standard smilie filled, giddily tacit echos and cut downs.
About time that is is acknowledged that he has a following who believe that evil is good, that black is white;
Applying the breaks to look at your statements a little more closely... Whose thoughts are you parroting? Whose information have you taken as gospel?
that trashing one's ex-wife in front of the world is OK;
that diddling the books is fine;
that using donations for God's work to sue fellow Christians is fine;
that scaring his then-wife with a firearm is the hallmark of a loving husband;
Did he brandish this firearm in her face or threaten her with it? It was in the house. As I recall this story, Linda was afraid that Danny was getting so unbalanced during the unraveling of their marriage that she was concerned about the gun he had, so she hid it.
threatening other Christians who might go to a Camp Meeting is quite legit.
Whether it was kind or not, it was certainly legit. This wasn't a case of Johann and Arild having an entitlement or a right to gather upon public property during that 2004 campmeeting, even though I believe their motives were good. 3ABN is a private ministry and, as such they can determine who they want to allow to attend their campmeetings and who they don't.
Yes. So sad that people can follow people like DS, David Koresh and others, but it's good to see that quaddie47 acknowledges that is so. :'(
I can't understand the mentality of cult followers (or their leaders), but it is a relief to know that others are finally seeing it and that he 'uses' those people for his own ends. Thank you for pointing that out quaddie. :TY:
As for this Mother Duck, there's no way that I'll be leaning that way nor following like a hypnotised sheep. No siree![/b]
They are not cleared on the civil front, Mr Matthews, and we are CERTAIN of it!!! I do not have clarity on the criminal question and I am not convinced 3ABN does either and your statements are PURE CONJECTURE at the very best. Your analysis is clearly challenged and based upon incomplete, self induced prejudice and a fear driven need to stay out of the fray. But be sure to ask your "competent legal counsel" if a file simply closes with a request for document return without an inocuous file closed notice? Then analyse again. Practice makes perfect, they say!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
They are not cleared on the civil front, Mr Matthews, and we are CERTAIN of it!!! I do not have clarity on the criminal question and I am not convinced 3ABN does either and your statements are PURE CONJECTURE at the very best. Your analysis is clearly challenged and based upon incomplete, self induced prejudice and a fear driven need to stay out of the fray. But be sure to ask your "competent legal counsel" if a file simply closes with a request for document return without an inocuous file closed notice? Then analyse again. Practice makes perfect, they say!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Bonnie,
What sort of announcement were you thinking of?
Preachers and members have a God-given right and responsibility to call sin by its right name, suit or no suit. The day will come when laws will be passed in America that will take away that right. Will we cave when that day comes, or will we continue to exercise that God-given right and responsibility?
The suit makes specific claims that puts at issue lots of allegations that the IRS would have no interest is. That being so, the courtroom will have an interest over whether Danny Shelton had biblical grounds for divorce, and, I believe, whether Danny Shelton covered up the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton.
Thus far, no one has produced anything in the way of an IRS ruling. We must remember that.
The court could not care less about biblical grounds for divorce. Not one whit.The court does not lose any sleep over immorality
The child molestation chages are going to be the same. Obviously there was something going on or TS would not have written that letter.You have the statute of limitation and a lack of any victim coming forward to file charges or a lawsuit.
You will likely never see anything by way of IRS ruling.
So we have had repeated claims of IRS exoneration in this thread, and still there has been no explanation of Danny's claim that he falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return, and no no explanation of the 1998 real estate deal.
I say "no explanation" because merely asserting that a "life estate" was involved is not an explanation, in my opinion, since there has been no attempt to explain how that changes the effect of 3ABN's reporting the sale of the house on its Form 990 as a loss.
Could Amazing Facts vote to give Doug Batchelor a life estate in a $50 million dollar home, and then later sell him the remainder interest for a pittance, and it wouldn't be considered private inurement? If Amazing Facts had to file 990's, could they then deny that a section 4958 excess benefit transaction took place?
Let's have some explanations!
So I intend to help the Layman's Ministry & Polly's Places around America so they can help abused wives and children, and yes even abused men too. ASI may write them off, but they are at the very top of my list! These are my opinions and not those of another, just me.
irspro, your comments are helpful.
Yes, I have a problem with that.
I'm going to start a thread with a question you might be able to help with.
irspro, your comments are helpful.
Yes, I have a problem with that.
I'm going to start a thread with a question you might be able to help with.
What are the odds that irspro will say something you don't agree with, Bob?
irspro, your comments are helpful.
Yes, I have a problem with that.
I'm going to start a thread with a question you might be able to help with.
What are the odds that irspro will say something you don't agree with, Bob?
Grandma! You surely aren't going to get us going down the split personality rabbit hole are you?
ROFL
With each and every comment you make it becomes more and more evident that you are an angry school yard bully who know they are wrong, knows the teacher is coming and they will end up in the principles office, knows their mom and dad are going to be called in and they are going to be in a world of hurt when it is all over.
Your legal "prowess" has been minimalized on a reoccurring basis and it won't stop where it is - it will merely continue until you have to face the world naked claiming you have the finest gowns wrapped around you. The support roles in for 3ABN, the world is beginning to see you for who you are and what you are about - the TRUTH in this Mr. Gailon Arthur Joy is that you are intent on brining down the final mission of God's last day people. You want to draw as much attention away from the message God desires the people of earth to hear and know . . . you are detracting from God's work, you are attempting to hide and cast shadows over the message of love and grace in the death of the Savior of the people of this planet. You are the stumbling block of many who have listened to you play on their heartaches, their pain, their struggles - you have attacked these in a parasitic manner sucking your life from their pain and personal agony rather than leading people to the Savior, rather than showing the world the love of God you have lead them into a deeper personal hell where their pain and anger and struggles multiply. You are not leading a single soul to the Savior.
Attack me! Spew your meaningless venom against me! Rant, rave, writhe in anger that you have been exposed. Bellow, thump your chest, threaten . . . God will not be mocked and your mockery will come to demise when it plays out its role in the Great Controversy between the Lord of the Universe and the father of lies. Then you will answer for all you have done - not just here, but in all the attacks on those who would do the work of the Lord. You will answer in the courts of the land, but the most important case you will have to testify in is the one where you are asked, "Who have you lead to the foot of the cross?" "Who have you lead into the loving fold of the Good Shepard?" "Who have you brought into the arms of the Savior?" . . . instead you will have to answer by pointing out all that you have chastised, all you have vilified, all you have excoriated, all you have ridiculed, belittled, and attacked in public venues . . . you will have to answer, "I was Saul, I did the work he failed to do." You will continue your argument "I exposed all the personal lives of those who I determined were your enemies." Instead of being able to answer, "Like the Samaritan who cared for the man who despised him, I sought to lift up my brother to you. I sought to bring those hurting and in pain to your arms to be healed and cared for." you will have to answer that you sought to destroy, to eradicate, to devastate, you will joyously claim to be judge, jury, and executioner . . .
God is love. I have yet to see you demonstrate by word or action that this is even a consideration in your theology. Stop pointing fingers, stop the juvenile "But, he did this . . ." response. Take responsibility for your actions, your words, and apologize for you attacks on those who do the work of the Lord. Apologize to those whose lives you have laid bare for your own enjoyment. Admit your sins publicly as you demand of others, apologize publicly as you demand of others. Do the work that is required of those who walk hand-in-hand with God in these last days and bring the message of love, forgiveness, and salvation to a wonting world in these final days of earths history. You are doing nothing to bring the lost to the Savior. You are not a martyr, but rather a self-absorbed individual who has delusions of grandeur. The humble, loving spirit of the Christ is not evident in your words, your actions. What is evident is self-aggrandizement and narcissism. You display only disdain for your fellow traveler. You despise the children of God. You do not evidence the spirit of God's last day people - love, compassion, understanding. You want it your way, not God's way.Earlier I posted a comment to the effect that I knew two peple who worked for the IRS. They had told me that the comments regarding the IRS investigation of 3-ABN having ended accurately described how the IRS Works.
Today I spoke to a male (For those who are interested.) attorney who has worked on litigation against the IRS in his law practice. [NOTE: I am saying that this attorney has worked in this area and can therefore be considered to have some knowledge.] I described to him what is being said by those who say that the IRS criminal/civil investigation is over and that 3-ABN has been cleared and I asked him to comment on those statements.
His comment was: What you have described is consistent what I have seen my my law practice as I have worked on cases that involved the IRS. That is how the IRS operates.
Folks, people whom I trust, are not involved in any way with 3-ABN (They are objective), and have personal knowledge as to how the IRS works lead me to blieve that the IRS has cleared 3-ABN of criminal/civil wrong doing.
I believe the issue regarding the IRS is over. I believe that 3-ABN has been cleared. Personally I believe that there were two flaws in the charges that people made against 3-ABN and Danny Shelton:
1) The people who made the charges did not know what evidence existed that 3-ABN/Danny Shelton had to rebut the charges. Folks, a one sided knowledge of an event is not enough to convict someone. I would say that 3-ABN made this same error in some of their handeling of charges against Linda Shelton. Now, in my opinion, some who have charged 3-ABN have committed the same error. One side of the issue is neither fair nor enough to convict. One must know and understand all sides of an issue before a decision is made.
2) I have been told by competent legal counsel that some of the IRS charges made against 3-ABN (specificly the sale of the house) were based upon a failure to understand the tax consequences of a property transaction that involved a "life estate." But, once I am told that pople making a specific charge do not properly understand a major aspect of the tax law as it applied to the transaction, I have to assume that those making other charges may (?) not understand other aspects of tax law.
My personal opinon: Folks, like it or not, the IRS tax isssues are over. 3-ABN apears to have been cleared on the criminal and civil front. Get on with your lives. In overall summary, while the IRS did not consider other charges not related to tax issues, the failure of the charges related to IRS issues to be sustained is a major wound to the other charges. If people making the charges can not get right an issue that is founded in established law and written records, most people will begin to question other charges that are more subjective. If your are wrong in this, who is to say you are correct on other issues?
Two questions, Mr Matthews:
1) Did your "competent counsel" tell you whether the IRS issues a file closed letter? And if so, where is it? Wouldn't you want to see that file closed letter, Mr Gregory, before you came to such a strong opinion?
2) Since the IRS has "exonerated 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton", would you recommend and expect that they would add the IRS investigators to the 3ABN and DLS Witness list? Now that would be a real feather in their cap to bring in the investigative staff to testify on behalf of 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton. Particularly since they "did not find a single thing wrong" Would not even debate the relevance of such an important witness, would you?
Well let me make it clear that we have already added one to our list and that is how certain we are that YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!!!
They are not cleared on the civil front, Mr Matthews, and we are CERTAIN of it!!! I do not have clarity on the criminal question and I am not convinced 3ABN does either and your statements are PURE CONJECTURE at the very best. Your analysis is clearly challenged and based upon incomplete, self induced prejudice and a fear driven need to stay out of the fray. But be sure to ask your "competent legal counsel" if a file simply closes with a request for document return without an inocuous file closed notice? Then analyse again. Practice makes perfect, they say!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
irspro, your comments are helpful.
Yes, I have a problem with that.
I'm going to start a thread with a question you might be able to help with.
3. The law firm that handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved would be idiots to sign their names to a letter saying the investigation was over if they didn't know that to be a fact.
3. The law firm that handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved would be idiots to sign their names to a letter saying the investigation was over if they didn't know that to be a fact.
Are you speaking of the law firm whose lead attorney in the 3ABN matter denied in early 2008 that there was an investigation? In court and on the record? Is that the firm who put their signatures to a letter saying that an investigation had been ongoing since 2007? One in which they "handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved"?
irspro,
Does what you are saying go for both civil and criminal audits?
You mention original documents, while Duffy's letter refers to copies instead of original documents. Any thought on that?
irspro,
Does what you are saying go for both civil and criminal audits?
You mention original documents, while Duffy's letter refers to copies instead of original documents. Any thought on that?
"Does what you are saying go for both civil and criminal audits?"
The use of the Document Request feebly addressed the generic phrase, "hundred thousand documents removed." Copies of documents willingly and probably forced would not be technically termed "removed" where "furnished' would be the more accurate term. Furnsished copies does not fully address whether the copies were made on either the taxpayer's or the IRS used their own equipment. Criminal fraud could involve "edited invoices and other documents" which would require a need for the criminal agent to provide some certifying mark on a document copy that would become a part of the permanent file. Whether this case progressed to the Criminal Division or not, I know that there should have been a clear understanding, up front, whether the copies would be returned or not. Good tax audit procedure would be for the taxpayer to make two copies of requested documents if the taxpayer feels they will need their own trail as furnished copies of documents are not generally meant for return to the taxpayer. In all my many years of taxation which occurred in my earlier legal career, I never had a taxpayer furnish me a copy of a document which I would used to make a copy for the permanent audit workpaper file with the funished copy expected to be returned.
Relatively speaking, I didn't intend to make a federal case out of "my opinion that the alleged query of the taxpayer on return of hundreds of thousands of original documents or (copies)" was the capstone on an "alleged No Change" federal tax audit. I intended to convey my opinion that the allegation was simply a ploy of proof of a final "No Change" case where some seem to demean the "INFORMANT", even alleged SDA ministers. Hint: Alleged LOVE OFFERINGS to ministers by their members are not gifts(period) so it better to be thought a fool rather than open one's mouth about a fellow member! This is better understood when you understand that the tax code is written with "a view toward taxation
"You mention original documents, while Duffy's letter refers to copies instead of original documents. Any thought on that??
You may be surprised to learn that all "Informant" cases are not examined, in fact very few, but, the deterrant effect works wonders. Spite in domestic relations matter and friendships gone awry do not always furnish reliable information. Difference in opinions of morality levels is the root cause of these disagreements.
The IRS has a very strict integrity program which includes interviews of application named references as well as law enforcement files in detail. The references furnished by the employee were detailed to the extent that I was approached by my references as to my position with the IRS needing such detailed information. My onsite interview may have been tempered by my scholarship, college work record, and my request for an opportunity rather than a job.
Th continuing integrity program includes the detailed examination of the latest tax returns filed for 3 years. These examinations were so intense as to explain in detail my charitable contributions down to my allocation to "Sabbath School Expense with a more detailed explanation of what was a Sabbath School Quaterly" I'll not go into the accuracy ratio I had be withstand to be hired; however, I think you can faintly surmise the IRS was looking with a view toward denial with that detail. The platform requires that all tax returns are manually classified and/or examined during the employees tenure. Furthermore, the employee must again withstand another 3 year examination for any break in employment with the IRS.
The employee's work product, time and attendance, complaints of every kind and character(within and without) are subject to being monitored by the IRS Inspection Service specially departmentalized out of control of the local IRS District. This being the case, would you advise that it would be foolish to believe the IRS would recieve even a copy of a document as proof in a work product, especially in an Informant's case, they could feel free to return their only records to the taxpayer that would break the trail of any subsequent Inspection Service review? Why would any honest person, other than one ignorant to the workings of the IRS, advance such a rumor of a "final and complete" end to a tax audit where neither tax nor penalties were proposed. In theory, a tax case over a 9 month span could involve 3,000 man-hours of time. Success with the IRS wouldn't include a heavy dose of this type of work quality on No Change cases whereby you may be subject to some re-training.
Remember that IRS examination officers and criminal investigators are subject to a high degree of baribery and even attempted bribery. Those accused of even potential fraud could be expected to be rated up in the charts. Some criminal elements have been known to make false accusations against against employees and some true accusations. An example is when a revenue agent was examining a spirits distributor that simply placed several bottles of the finest spirits on the floor of the agent's auto. The agent must have thought the scenario was so easy that a later request for more of the same would would never later present itself. Well, the request was fullfilled and reported to the agent's superiors who turned the allegation over to the Inspection Service who investigated the matter probably without any great detail with the agent voluntarily resigning probably knowing that they would not survive a polygraph test.
Hopefully, even those with stumbling-around intelligence can understand my stance on a query to return copies of taxpayer's records as a full and final settlement indicator in a tax audit where potential fraud was alleged at some level! I can only hope the taxpayers are not totally confused by the potential withdrawal of the alleged participation by the Criminal Investigation Division as a full and final settlement. I have learned on a number of occasions where the hand I spat in filled before the hand within which I hoped!
I stand ready to furnish more or correct any misunderstandings at your request from the "inside" of 25 of my total 50+ years in re taxes even through this past week! The IRS granted me the opportunity to be able to practice a certain degree of law while employed where I am sure I was monitored ever more closely, believe it or not even though I did not practice any tax law until I openly hung out my shingle upon retirement.
Added on Edit:
Upon saving the original message and upon viewing some near messages, I thought it be wise to comment that it was not my intention to even hint any possible malfeasance even in light that the gibberish I have read on "final closure" here did not fit the pattern I had always noted in the normal course of business in connection with the strict integrity platform during employment.
Edited: To add quotations in first query and to add the last paragraph.
No, no bone to pick, only haul you off to me secret hidden forum and brow beat you. As soon as I remember where I put it that is
Doesn't bother me, but Bonnie may have a bone to pick with both you and your so called "irspro" opinions and statements as you are posting anonymously...
To clarify, the hidden forum reference in the post written some time ago to you.. was in reference to your (as in AdventTalk's) semi private forums... ;)
Here's a helpful link for all concerned about IRS policy and practice:
http://www.irs.gov/irm/part9/index.html
Have a good day everyone.
Sam, you and anyman spend so much time patting each other on the back, you must be developing calluses on your palms to match those that have deadened your consciences.
Amen, Gailon, well said!
Posted on: Today at 07:21:26 PM Posted by: Bob PickleQuoteSo what does Division leadership there think about the various 3ABN issues? Do you know?
Good question, Bob! That's the Euro-African Division, right?
I love Gailon's word choices!
Fran,
You are so precious!
First, we observe administrators at BSDA get frustrated and close the 3ABN subforum "for a few weeks" to give everyone, particularly them, "a break".
During that "few week break" this new, friendly forum sprang up to give folks another venue for discussion. Almost immediately thereafter, the BSDA 3ABN subforum abruptly ended its "few week break" after only a few days. However, the 3ABN-related documents and letters that had been "pinned" were unpinned.
Whatever term they choose to use, the "unpinning" of these documents has effectively buried these firsthand accounts in the depths of BSDA making it necessary for a reader to know they are there and go in search of them, rather than have them displayed prominently for members, lurkers or new readers to see.
Thanks for that comprehensive and clear-headed summation, Snoopy!
I also have wished that those various items were pinned here at AdventTalk!
Daryl, that would be great if you brought them over here!
Daryl is going on vacation??? Oh NO!!
Just kidding! From what I have witnessed just in the last couple of weeks, it is a well-deserved one!! Have a wonderful time Daryl!! Hopefully you will not be taking a computer!! Oh yes - thank you for getting these all important letters and documents here and handy! I for one really appreciate it.
I also want to thank Daryl publicly for all his hard work and effort. This Forum is one that 'had to be'.
Johann, thanks for explanations from someone who actually knows something about it!
And again the mention of an alternate mission entity, independent of the church.
Sam, you and anyman spend so much time patting each other on the back, you must be developing calluses on your palms to match those that have deadened your consciences.
irspro,
Does what you are saying go for both civil and criminal audits?
You mention original documents, while Duffy's letter refers to copies instead of original documents. Any thought on that?
3. The law firm that handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved would be idiots to sign their names to a letter saying the investigation was over if they didn't know that to be a fact.
Are you speaking of the law firm whose lead attorney in the 3ABN matter denied in early 2008 that there was an investigation? In court and on the record? Is that the firm who put their signatures to a letter saying that an investigation had been ongoing since 2007? One in which they "handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved"?
Actually no. Though Duffy composed the letter and helped where needed, it was another firm that handled the IRS case face to face. His name is definitely on the letter as he is the one that had direct contact.
Hmmmmm.... That's a rather nasty thing to say for someone who is often on the receiving end of similar accolades from her "side". Ad hominem statements such as this one are not only rude, they also reek of hypocrisy.Sam, you and anyman spend so much time patting each other on the back, you must be developing calluses on your palms to match those that have deadened your consciences.
There is so much back-patting going on here at Adventtalk that it was rather ludicrous for you to have pointed the spotlight on an instance of this behavior from those who don't share your stance on the 3abn issues. I spent just a few minutes checking out old posts, after reading your post this morning, and gathered a small selection of examples from various members:
Amen, Gailon, well said!Posted on: Today at 07:21:26 PM Posted by: Bob PickleQuoteSo what does Division leadership there think about the various 3ABN issues? Do you know?
Good question, Bob! That's the Euro-African Division, right?I love Gailon's word choices!
Fran,
You are so precious!First, we observe administrators at BSDA get frustrated and close the 3ABN subforum "for a few weeks" to give everyone, particularly them, "a break".
During that "few week break" this new, friendly forum sprang up to give folks another venue for discussion. Almost immediately thereafter, the BSDA 3ABN subforum abruptly ended its "few week break" after only a few days. However, the 3ABN-related documents and letters that had been "pinned" were unpinned.
Whatever term they choose to use, the "unpinning" of these documents has effectively buried these firsthand accounts in the depths of BSDA making it necessary for a reader to know they are there and go in search of them, rather than have them displayed prominently for members, lurkers or new readers to see.
Thanks for that comprehensive and clear-headed summation, Snoopy!
I also have wished that those various items were pinned here at AdventTalk!
Daryl, that would be great if you brought them over here!Daryl is going on vacation??? Oh NO!!
Just kidding! From what I have witnessed just in the last couple of weeks, it is a well-deserved one!! Have a wonderful time Daryl!! Hopefully you will not be taking a computer!! Oh yes - thank you for getting these all important letters and documents here and handy! I for one really appreciate it.
I also want to thank Daryl publicly for all his hard work and effort. This Forum is one that 'had to be'.
Johann, thanks for explanations from someone who actually knows something about it!
And again the mention of an alternate mission entity, independent of the church.
Yet the truth of some of what the anonymous folks have said has already come out.
For example, Sam asserted that in 1998 Danny and Linda made a mere pittance, which somehow justified 3ABN selling them a house for $6,139, and them selling it to a 3ABN supporter for $135,000 one week later. (Bear in mind that that same 3ABN supporter had given them 18 acres just a few months before as well, the same land they built their new house on.)
But the mere pittance ended up, according to the Form 990, being more than $94,000 combined income, and Sam still hasn't explained how that was a mere pittance.
Reminds me a bit of when Joe Smith (believed to be Ronnie Shelton) on BSDA asserted that Linda now lives in a mansion with a huge pool. So I decided to check that one out, and Joe ended up saying that any pool is huge to someone who doesn't have one.
I wish Sam would take me up on my request to name the allegations he thinks I need to retract.
So I intend to help the Layman's Ministry & Polly's Places around America so they can help abused wives and children, and yes even abused men too. ASI may write them off, but they are at the very top of my list! These are my opinions and not those of another, just me.
Fran, thank you so much for deciding to donate to Polly's Place Network affiliates! Your donations will be put to good use!
Due to the destructive vandalism at the Niles, Michigan facility, they are in great need of financial help right now. There are really many programs that can use financial support from caring people who wish to help those who need to learn to rise above the abuse they have suffered.
I would encourage all to check out the brand new show Empowerment on HOPE Channel. The Lord has blessed Mable Dunbar and Polly's Place Network with this new vehicle to spread the message of hope and healing to the abused. It airs each Tuesday night and Friday morning. PPN is still looking for funds to cover the travel expenses to get people to the studio to tape programs.
Again, Fran, thank you so much for being willing to support such a worthy ministry!
I am not going to take the time to go back and look it up, but the horse deal and the e-mail, didn't that include a request for a donation receipt of x number of dollars instead of an appraised value??
As far as I know you can not write off a "donation" to a private individual. So was this conversation dealing with 3ABN and the horses or a private horse business of DS and LS.
I wish Sam would take me up on my request to name the allegations he thinks I need to retract.Don't hold your breath, Bob. Sam is just another one of the dime-a-dozen anonymous posters who come in here under the cover of a screen name and post wild accusations with nothing to back them up. I find it fascinating that there are those who come in here anonymously and attack those of us who sign our real names to our posts, yet they want to be taken seriously.
3. The law firm that handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved would be idiots to sign their names to a letter saying the investigation was over if they didn't know that to be a fact.
Are you speaking of the law firm whose lead attorney in the 3ABN matter denied in early 2008 that there was an investigation? In court and on the record? Is that the firm who put their signatures to a letter saying that an investigation had been ongoing since 2007? One in which they "handled the IRS case and dealt directly with the agents involved"?
Actually no. Though Duffy composed the letter and helped where needed, it was another firm that handled the IRS case face to face. His name is definitely on the letter as he is the one that had direct contact.
Sam, your answer is a little confusing. Duffy in his letter claimed to have represented 3ABN along with Max Carr-Howard. Are you saying that wasn't true?
I am not going to take the time to go back and look it up, but the horse deal and the e-mail, didn't that include a request for a donation receipt of x number of dollars instead of an appraised value??
Was to total $40,000 for two horses for 2004, and totaled $20,000 for a horse or horses for 2003.
-------- Original Message --------
From: Linda Shelton
To: Danny Shelton
Date: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:15:42 AM
My accountant tells me that it is required to have an acknowledgement from ****** that he received the two horses (which I am claiming as a tax deduction), also the two appraisals of the horses. I cannot finish my tax returns without these items. I appreciate your help in these matters.
LS
------- Original Message --------
From: Danny Shelton
To: Linda Shelton
Subject: RE:
Date: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:02 PM
LS,
I will call ****** today and try to take care of this. I need them also.
DS
-------- Original Message --------
From: Danny Shelton
To: Linda Shelton
Date: Thursday, April 07, 2005 1:39 AM
I left a phone message to ****** of what we need. He did get the horses and we will each get two tax write offs for $10,000 @
Mr. Shelton
As far as I know you can not write off a "donation" to a private individual. So was this conversation dealing with 3ABN and the horses or a private horse business of DS and LS.
2 horses for 40,000.00 ????
Then why does Linda say she needs acknowledgment for the 2 horses she is claiming in 2004, and appraisals for them?
And why does Danny say that they will each get two reciepts each?
Not that it matters as when DS talked to his accountant he found out he couldn't file like that, so didn't...
As His and Linda's tax returns show and the accountant can verify...
Just one more example of your shoddy reporting...
I am not going to take the time to go back and look it up, but the horse deal and the e-mail, didn't that include a request for a donation receipt of x number of dollars instead of an appraised value??
Was to total $40,000 for two horses for 2004, and totaled $20,000 for a horse or horses for 2003.
2 horses for 40,000.00 ????
Then why does Linda say she needs acknowledgment for the 2 horses she is claiming in 2004, and appraisals for them?
And why does Danny say that they will each get two receipts each?
Sure it wasn't 4 horses for 20,000.00??
Not that it matters as when DS talked to his accountant he found out they couldn't file like that, so didn't...
As His and Linda's tax returns show and the accountant can verify...
Just one more example of your shoddy reporting...Quote-------- Original Message --------
From: Linda Shelton
To: Danny Shelton
Date: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:15:42 AM
My accountant tells me that it is required to have an acknowledgement from ****** that he received the two horses (which I am claiming as a tax deduction), also the two appraisals of the horses. I cannot finish my tax returns without these items. I appreciate your help in these matters.
LS
------- Original Message --------
From: Danny Shelton
To: Linda Shelton
Subject: RE:
Date: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:02 PM
LS,
I will call ****** today and try to take care of this. I need them also.
DS
-------- Original Message --------
From: Danny Shelton
To: Linda Shelton
Date: Thursday, April 07, 2005 1:39 AM
I left a phone message to ****** of what we need. He did get the horses and we will each get two tax write offs for $10,000 @
Mr. SheltonAs far as I know you can not write off a "donation" to a private individual. So was this conversation dealing with 3ABN and the horses or a private horse business of DS and LS.
It was donations allegedly made by Danny to Stephen Lewis' ministry.
One question is easy to answer: 3ABN bought the property and Danny grazed his horses on it. Danny didn't have to hire workers for his horse business, he had grounds people from 3ABN work for him on 3ABN company time. Also, he personally spent alot of time when he should have been in the office taking care of his horse business. That is the reason Mollie was so important to Danny, part of her work was doing his work. Mostly Danny was there when important guests arrived and he personally signed contracts.
Clarification: the 18 acres on which his house and horse barn were built, which Gilley now owns, were given to Danny in 1998 by the owner, Elora Ford. As far as I know, 3ABN has never owned that property.
According to http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html#1 (http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=108139,00.html#1), the donor may have to pay gift tax. One would have to check out the rules for 1998.
I've seen no indication that Elora Ford reported that gift as a tax-deductible donation.
I've wondered if Elora Ford being a supporter of 3ABN affects Danny's tax liability, but I don't know. Remember that she is also the one who bought Danny's house for $135,000 after a week.
Stephen Lewis has a ministry, and it would be through it that Danny got the tax-deductible receipt.
Danny sold Gilly his house and then started building a new house on 48 acres across the road.
Clarification: the 18 acres on which his house and horse barn were built, which Gilley now owns, were given to Danny in 1998 by the owner, Elora Ford. As far as I know, 3ABN has never owned that property.
One question is easy to answer: 3ABN bought the property and Danny grazed his horses on it. Danny didn't have to hire workers for his horse business, he had grounds people from 3ABN work for him on 3ABN company time. Also, he personally spent alot of time when he should have been in the office taking care of his horse business. That is the reason Mollie was so important to Danny, part of her work was doing his work. Mostly Danny was there when important guests arrived and he personally signed contracts.
Sister, aren't you referring to the low house across the street from where Danny and Linda lived? Seems like the Wilsons lived there for a while before Brandy moved in?
Now let's see....who should I believe....Sister who cannot prove one accusation she has made and has been exposed as a liar repeatedly...or....the IRS?
Care to prove that he had grounds people care for the horses on 3abn time? Do you make up these lies or do you get them from someone else? If you were telling the truth, the IRS would have spotted that in a heartbeat and there would have been repercussions of some kind. There wasn't. Now let's see....who should I believe....Sister who cannot prove one accusation she has made and has been exposed as a liar repeatedly...or....the IRS?
I am here at ASI where I am finding I can gather plenty of information from the people who actually know something. Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
The only thing that makes money with horses is if you have a stud with a famous bloodline and charge a hefty fee to breed your horse to another. Other than that, because of the expenses of vets, feed, shelter the horses didn't make money. He had them because he loves horses and likes to ride once in awhile. As usual this is much ado about nothing. Remember the IRS already looked into these records and found nothing wrong with DS or 3abn.
Care to prove that he had grounds people care for the horses on 3abn time? Do you make up these lies or do you get them from someone else? If you were telling the truth, the IRS would have spotted that in a heartbeat and there would have been repurcussions of some kind. THere wasnt. Now let's see....who should I believe....Sister who cannot prove one accusation she has made and has been exposed as a liar repeatedly...or....the IRS?
DAH
I am here at ASI where I am finding I can gather plenty of information from the people who actually know something. Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
The only thing that makes money with horses is if you have a stud with a famous bloodline and charge a hefty fee to breed your horse to another. Other than that, because of the expenses of vets, feed, shelter the horses didn't make money. He had them because he loves horses and likes to ride once in awhile. As usual this is much ado about nothing. Remember the IRS already looked into these records and found nothing wrong with DS or 3abn.
Everyone has lived in that house. The Lomacang's, The Wilsons, I believe the new CFO is there now and about 1/2 dozen more have lived there that I can't think of their names.
Sammy, how would the IRS have known if Danny was having 3ABN grounds people caring for his horses? Do these "grounds people" keep detailed time sheets? Seems to me the only way the IRS would know that is if an investigator followed 3ABN personnel and actually SAW them working with Danny's horses.
by Sam
I could be wrong but I believe the email you published was Danny asking Linda if she wanted to do that as the other person involved had told him it was legal and the "right" way to do it. I don't believe you have confirmation that he went through with it and I doubt he did. IMO anyone that wasn't 100% sure would have ask an attorney
This question may have been answered elsewhere and I didn't see it. It came to mind again when you said DS paid for the horses as with everything else personal from his salary.
Can you tell me more about the horse deal. How is it a private for profit enterprise as raising horses even fell in the area of donations. You did say in another post that DS had the horses as a business.
Sammy, how would the IRS have known if Danny was having 3ABN grounds people caring for his horses? Do these "grounds people" keep detailed time sheets? Seems to me the only way the IRS would know that is if an investigator followed 3ABN personnel and actually SAW them working with Danny's horses.Care to prove that he had grounds people care for the horses on 3abn time? Do you make up these lies or do you get them from someone else? If you were telling the truth, the IRS would have spotted that in a heartbeat and there would have been repurcussions of some kind. THere wasnt. Now let's see....who should I believe....Sister who cannot prove one accusation she has made and has been exposed as a liar repeatedly...or....the IRS?
Sam, I noticed the time you are posting is during the seminars at ASI, is posting at AdventTalk more important?
DAH
I am here at ASI where I am finding I can gather plenty of information from the people who actually know something. Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
The only thing that makes money with horses is if you have a stud with a famous bloodline and charge a hefty fee to breed your horse to another. Other than that, because of the expenses of vets, feed, shelter the horses didn't make money. He had them because he loves horses and likes to ride once in awhile. As usual this is much ado about nothing. Remember the IRS already looked into these records and found nothing wrong with DS or 3abn.
I know that you have told two stories concerning the horses. One that it was not a business because of the lack of a stud with famous bloodline and below I referenced it.QuoteThis question may have been answered elsewhere and I didn't see it. It came to mind again when you said DS paid for the horses as with everything else personal from his salary.
Can you tell me more about the horse deal. How is it a private for profit enterprise as raising horses even fell in the area of donations. You did say in another post that DS had the horses as a business.
Tell me again which you believe this to be.
.
If he and Linda had horses and paid for them by breeding them and selling others, that is their business, not yours nor any one Else's. No one comes into your house and claims you can\'t have pets or spend money or resources in feeding and caring for them, as that money should go to the Lord.
Ian,
Between you, anyman,and Sam,you seem to have the confidence of DS. Knowing much about his affairs
I do believe there was a resolution of some kind, not necessarily what was touted but some resolution.
So with that can you tell me if the personal finances of DS and LD were audited. I am assuming they filed jointly.
Were the horse a business or a very expensive hobby
Bonnie,
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how answering your questions helps, or why you even bother to ask any of us, it seems you never believe nor accept anything we try to explain or say.
May I suggest you email your questions to LS, or DS? They were divorced at the time, so it would probably be best to ask both of them and get the whole picture.. but... jmo
The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:
The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
Num 6:24-26[/b
Ian,
Between you, anyman,and Sam,you seem to have the confidence of DS. Knowing much about his affairs
I do believe there was a resolution of some kind, not necessarily what was touted but some resolution.
So with that can you tell me if the personal finances of DS and LD were audited. I am assuming they filed jointly.
Were the horse a business or a very expensive hobby
It's a very simple question Ian.
'Yes' or 'No' to business or expensive hobby will suffice.
You usually have all the answers. You usually state that you KNOW the facts, so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to answer. :horse:
One question is easy to answer: 3ABN bought the property and Danny grazed his horses on it. Danny didn't have to hire workers for his horse business, he had grounds people from 3ABN work for him on 3ABN company time. Also, he personally spent alot of time when he should have been in the office taking care of his horse business. That is the reason Mollie was so important to Danny, part of her work was doing his work. Mostly Danny was there when important guests arrived and he personally signed contracts.
Care to prove that he had grounds people care for the horses on 3abn time? Do you make up these lies or do you get them from someone else? If you were telling the truth, the IRS would have spotted that in a heartbeat and there would have been repurcussions of some kind. THere wasnt. Now let's see....who should I believe....Sister who cannot prove one accusation she has made and has been exposed as a liar repeatedly...or....the IRS?
DAH
I am here at ASI where I am finding I can gather plenty of information from the people who actually know something. Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
The only thing that makes money with horses is if you have a stud with a famous bloodline and charge a hefty fee to breed your horse to another. Other than that, because of the expenses of vets, feed, shelter the horses didn't make money. He had them because he loves horses and likes to ride once in awhile. As usual this is much ado about nothing. Remember the IRS already looked into these records and found nothing wrong with DS or 3abn.
One question is easy to answer: 3ABN bought the property and Danny grazed his horses on it. Danny didn't have to hire workers for his horse business, he had grounds people from 3ABN work for him on 3ABN company time. Also, he personally spent alot of time when he should have been in the office taking care of his horse business. That is the reason Mollie was so important to Danny, part of her work was doing his work. Mostly Danny was there when important guests arrived and he personally signed contracts.
Care to prove that he had grounds people care for the horses on 3abn time? Do you make up these lies or do you get them from someone else? If you were telling the truth, the IRS would have spotted that in a heartbeat and there would have been repurcussions of some kind. THere wasnt. Now let's see....who should I believe....Sister who cannot prove one accusation she has made and has been exposed as a liar repeatedly...or....the IRS?
DAH
I am here at ASI where I am finding I can gather plenty of information from the people who actually know something. Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
The only thing that makes money with horses is if you have a stud with a famous bloodline and charge a hefty fee to breed your horse to another. Other than that, because of the expenses of vets, feed, shelter the horses didn't make money. He had them because he loves horses and likes to ride once in awhile. As usual this is much ado about nothing. Remember the IRS already looked into these records and found nothing wrong with DS or 3abn.
Why SAM, fallen silent? Looking for "THE" answer or embarrassed by "THE" answer? ANd I ask yet again:
Gailon Arthur Joy
I wish they wouldn't do that!!! It really spoils my FUN!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Bonnie,
When Gallon told me he was going to write that, I told him that you would probably object to his statement.
Thanks for trying to keep him in line. ;)
SAM,
Since you are such an insider, can you tell me who paid for that tarred driveway that goes to the house and then splits and goes all the way to the barn???
Gailon Arthur Joy
SAM,
Since you are such an insider, can you tell me who paid for that tarred driveway that goes to the house and then splits and goes all the way to the barn??? And who built the barn??? Was it family and neighbors? Or was it the same benefactor that paid to pave the 3ABN drives and parking areas??? And would it have known IT was paying for both?
I am sure you will have no problem producing receipts to back up your answers, right???
Gailon Arthur Joy
Posted by Donna, Today at 01:16:20 PM
Since Sam cannot answer I did find out part of this. The tarred driveway does not go from the house to the barn.
author=Gailon Arthur Joy link=topic=870.msg11507#msg11507 date=1218314812
1. And how many yards of tar were used??
2. Or was it the same benefactor that paid to pave the 3ABN drives and parking areas???
3. And would it have known IT was paying for both?
4. I am sure you will have no problem producing receipts to back up your answers, right???
Sam was banned for only 48 hours beginning on August 12. As far as I know, there is no reason why he/she cannot post here.
Not true, Donna. Perhaps Sam has a problem with his/her internet connections.
Not true, Donna. Perhaps Sam has a problem with his/her internet connections.
SAM,
Since you are such an insider, can you tell me who paid for that tarred driveway that goes to the house and then splits and goes all the way to the barn??? And who built the barn??? Was it family and neighbors? Or was it the same benefactor that paid to pave the 3ABN drives and parking areas??? And would it have known IT was paying for both?
I am sure you will have no problem producing receipts to back up your answers, right???
Gailon Arthur JoyQuotePosted by Donna, Today at 01:16:20 PM
Since Sam cannot answer I did find out part of this. The tarred driveway does not go from the house to the barn.
Donna;
I read Gailon's statement and did not read where he said the road went from the house to the barn. It isn't there. The way I read it, it say the driveway goes to the house, but somewhere on that drive, it splits and goes to the barn. As I see it Gailon and you are both right. Donna, all you did in trying to discredit Gailon was to report something that was not stated. As I see it, there is no road that goes from the house to the barn, but that the driveway does split off somewhere and goes to the Barn.
Maybe I am reading everything wrong.
Can you check with Sam again and find out if there is a drive, be it colici, pebbles and tar, paved, concrete or any other composite, that goes to the barn? That would help solve the difference in both statements. Can you get Sam to answer any of the other question's quoted below?Quoteauthor=Gailon Arthur Joy link=topic=870.msg11507#msg11507 date=1218314812
1. And how many yards of tar were used??
2. Or was it the same benefactor that paid to pave the 3ABN drives and parking areas???
3. And would it have known IT was paying for both?
4. I am sure you will have no problem producing receipts to back up your answers, right???
Fran, Gailon has never seen it obviously, it splits off and goes to the stable but that part isn't paved and who cares if it is or is not anyway?
Don't any of the members here have anything besides a mudhole in front of their house? Am I the only one with a paved driveway ? ( "be it colici, pebbles and tar, paved, concrete or any other composite")
And if you do, do you all have your receipts? :D
QuoteFran, Gailon has never seen it obviously, it splits off and goes to the stable but that part isn't paved and who cares if it is or is not anyway?
Don't any of the members here have anything besides a mudhole in front of their house? Am I the only one with a paved driveway ? ( "be it colici, pebbles and tar, paved, concrete or any other composite")
And if you do, do you all have your receipts? :D
The difference is those things purchased or paid for by you is given salary for a job performed. I owe no one an explaination for what I have in my home or my yard. What DS does with his stated income is no one's business, unless his lifestyle cannot conceivably be supported by that income.
You can say what you will,DS would have had a extremely tough time supporting his very expensive hobby on the listed income.
Are you certain there might not be circumstances where it could be somebody else's business? Does any of this apply here?
Fran, Gailon has never seen it obviously, it splits off and goes to the stable but that part isn't paved and who cares if it is or is not anyway?
Don't any of the members here have anything besides a mud hole in front of their house? Am I the only one with a paved driveway ? ( "be it colici, pebbles and tar, paved, concrete or any other composite")
And if you do, do you all have your receipts? :D
Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
Sam, was it all family members and people who had nothing to do with 3ABN who baled the hay, loaded it on the truck and put it it Danny's barn? Was it all family members and people who had nothing to do with 3ABN who built the barn for the horses at Danny's home on 34?
Ask Sam if that hay came from Danny's land? Was it from the acres of alfalfa between the 3ABN complex and the main highway? Was it cut, baled and transported with 3ABN owned equipment operated by 3ABN employees?Sam, was it all family members and people who had nothing to do with 3ABN who baled the hay, loaded it on the truck and put it it Danny's barn? Was it all family members and people who had nothing to do with 3ABN who built the barn for the horses at Danny's home on 34?
How much land did DS have.
If he raised his own hay, then he needs a mower, rake, and baler from a already stretched income. I would more than likely think that was not the case. I suspect he would have had sense enough purchase hay from another source that had the needed expensive equipment. But who knows.
I doubt whether his family did all the work while he was gone almost non-stop.
You have a window in which to cut,rake have it dry and then bale.DS could not have been home for all of that at the necessary time
Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
Sam, do you know Larry Welch and Dave Everett? Are they members of the Shelton family? Did they have nothing to do with 3ABN?
Uh-oh. While they were on 3ABN time??It would be easy to ask them. They show the numbers 618-627-4651, and 800-752-3226 on their network. At least one of the two should still be there.Danny had plenty of help with the horses that had nothing to do with 3abn. A big source of help was called "family". He was usually gone on the weekends and it was easy for a neighbor friend or one of the family to go feed and water the horses for a few days. If he was gone longer, he paid someone to look after them.
Sam, do you know Larry Welch and Dave Everett? Are they members of the Shelton family? Did they have nothing to do with 3ABN?
Sam, was it all family members and people who had nothing to do with 3ABN who baled the hay, loaded it on the truck and put it it Danny's barn? Was it all family members and people who had nothing to do with 3ABN who built the barn for the horses at Danny's home on 34?
How much land did DS have.
If he raised his own hay, then he needs a mower, rake, and baler from a already stretched income. I would more than likely think that was not the case. I suspect he would have had sense enough purchase hay from another source that had the needed expensive equipment. But who knows.
I doubt whether his family did all the work while he was gone almost non-stop.
You have a window in which to cut,rake have it dry and then bale.DS could not have been home for all of that at the necessary time
Bonnie, Do you know anything about the Homozygous breed?
I guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
Bonnie, Do you know anything about the Homozygous breed?
QuoteI guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
If he hauls hay it cam be done with a pickup but rather tedious as it requires more trips.
Why would 3abn have farm equipment
Sounds like a great question to ask in court, don't you think??
Snoopy
[I guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
If he hauls hay it cam be done with a pickup but rather tedious as it requires more trips.
Why would 3abn have farm equipment
I don't think 3abn could explain a baler. Possibly the rest of it.
It would be more likely he bought hay.
Might 3ABN have farm equipment because it had acres of hay fields that are now lawn? A 3/4 ton flatbed truck with a low trailer would be alot better for transporting hay than a pickup would be, don't you think? And the tedium would be relieved if a number of employees cut, raked, baled, bucked and stacked the hay in the loft.QuoteI guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
If he hauls hay it cam be done with a pickup but rather tedious as it requires more trips.
Why would 3abn have farm equipment
Might 3ABN have farm equipment because it had acres of hay fields that are now lawn? A 3/4 ton flatbed truck with a low trailer would be alot better for transporting hay than a pickup would be, don't you think? And the tedium would be relieved if a number of employees cut, raked, baled, bucked and stacked the hay in the loft.QuoteI guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
If he hauls hay it cam be done with a pickup but rather tedious as it requires more trips.
Why would 3abn have farm equipment
I guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
Might 3ABN have farm equipment because it had acres of hay fields that are now lawn? A 3/4 ton flatbed truck with a low trailer would be alot better for transporting hay than a pickup would be, don't you think? And the tedium would be relieved if a number of employees cut, raked, baled, bucked and stacked the hay in the loft.
There is so much falsehood being spoken by the "other" side that I can't see the hay for the bales!
Was this there only crop? :ROFL: :dunno:
Hemp is grown on a farm. Some farms produce "grass". What else was in that barn? We got a horse business. A hay business. A business in construction. 3ABN pays for the materials and the labor. Hum. $$ Cha ching $$. What can we say. How can anyone do ALL that on $94,000 a year! Who bought all of the large farming equipment? That stuff ain't cheap!
Bonnie, how much do you figure that equipment would run?
I know! Maybe that is where the nan_don eBay money went? Naw, I believe it went to people "here, and over there."
Someone told me that Danny's maid service and gardener were back to 3ABN to do 3ABN work. I can see why they built a smaller home! Cleaning all that square footage takes a LOT!
Well, I guess I can go back to eBay for a while.
There is so much falsehood being spoken by the "other" side that I can't see the hay for the bales!
Was this there only crop? :ROFL: :dunno:
Hemp is grown on a farm. Some farms produce "grass". What else was in that barn? We got a horse business. A hay business. A business in construction. 3ABN pays for the materials and the labor. Hum. $$ Cha ching $$. What can we say. How can anyone do ALL that on $94,000 a year! Who bought all of the large farming equipment? That stuff ain't cheap!
Bonnie, how much do you figure that equipment would run?
I know! Maybe that is where the nan_don eBay money went? Naw, I believe it went to people "here, and over there."
Someone told me that Danny's maid service and gardener were back to 3ABN to do 3ABN work. I can see why they built a smaller home! Cleaning all that square footage takes a LOT!
Well, I guess I can go back to eBay for a while.
There is so much falsehood being spoken by the "other" side that I can't see the hay for the bales!
Was this there only crop? :ROFL: :dunno:
Hemp is grown on a farm. Some farms produce "grass". What else was in that barn? We got a horse business. A hay business. A business in construction. 3ABN pays for the materials and the labor. Hum. $$ Cha ching $$. What can we say. How can anyone do ALL that on $94,000 a year! Who bought all of the large farming equipment? That stuff ain't cheap!
Bonnie, how much do you figure that equipment would run?
I know! Maybe that is where the nan_don eBay money went? Naw, I believe it went to people "here, and over there."
Someone told me that Danny's maid service and gardener were back to 3ABN to do 3ABN work. I can see why they built a smaller home! Cleaning all that square footage takes a LOT!
Well, I guess I can go back to eBay for a while.
I wonder if it would be a sin to hire a gardener or a housekeeper? As I recall EGW hired a gardener and also housekeepers when she lived in California after coming home from Australia. I have friends and relatives who have hired people to help out in the garden and also clean house.
Is it a sin to do such a thing? Is it a sin to buy farming equipment too if it is needed? Of course not...
I wonder if it would be a sin to hire a gardener or a housekeeper? As I recall EGW hired a gardener and also housekeepers when she lived in California after coming home from Australia. I have friends and relatives who have hired people to help out in the garden and also clean house.
Is it a sin to do such a thing? Is it a sin to buy farming equipment too if it is needed? Of course not
To summarize a number of posts: All of the work mentioned was done by 3ABN employees, on the 3ABN clock. It was not done by individuals that Danny personally employed and paid for out of his own pocket. Farming equipment was bought and paid for by 3ABN, not by Danny Shelton out of his own pocket. What use would a TV station have for farm equipment to bale hay? Hay was cut and baled by 3ABN employees while working on the 3ABN clock. It was delivered and stacked by 3ABN employees working on the 3ABN clock. Danny Shelton's barn was constructed by 3ABN employees working on the 3ABN clock. Dave Everett and Larry Welch both took care of Danny's horses while on the 3ABN clock. It appears that a pattern is developing. Is 3ABN a Shelton family private business where there is no division between private and ministry function in regard to the work of employees and supporting Danny's private interests? If, as Danny has claimed, "3ABN is the Lord's ministry", is Danny Shelton picking the Lord's pockets?
There is so much falsehood being spoken by the "other" side that I can't see the hay for the bales!
Was this there only crop? :ROFL: :dunno:
Hemp is grown on a farm. Some farms produce "grass". What else was in that barn? We got a horse business. A hay business. A business in construction. 3ABN pays for the materials and the labor. Hum. $$ Cha ching $$. What can we say. How can anyone do ALL that on $94,000 a year! Who bought all of the large farming equipment? That stuff ain't cheap!
Bonnie, how much do you figure that equipment would run?
I know! Maybe that is where the nan_don eBay money went? Naw, I believe it went to people "here, and over there."
Someone told me that Danny's maid service and gardener were back to 3ABN to do 3ABN work. I can see why they built a smaller home! Cleaning all that square footage takes a LOT!
Well, I guess I can go back to eBay for a while.
On another forum comments were made in regard to Fran's comment in bold above:Quote
I wonder if it would be a sin to hire a gardener or a housekeeper? As I recall EGW hired a gardener and also housekeepers when she lived in California after coming home from Australia. I have friends and relatives who have hired people to help out in the garden and also clean house.
Is it a sin to do such a thing? Is it a sin to buy farming equipment too if it is needed? Of course not...
To summarize a number of posts: All of the work mentioned was done by 3ABN employees, on the 3ABN clock. It was not done by individuals that Danny personally employed and paid for out of his own pocket. Farming equipment was bought and paid for by 3ABN, not by Danny Shelton out of his own pocket. What use would a TV station have for farm equipment to bale hay? Hay was cut and baled by 3ABN employees while working on the 3ABN clock. It was delivered and stacked by 3ABN employees working on the 3ABN clock. Danny Shelton's barn was constructed by 3ABN employees working on the 3ABN clock. Dave Everett and Larry Welch both took care of Danny's horses while on the 3ABN clock. It appears that a pattern is developing. Is 3ABN a Shelton family private business where there is no division between private and ministry function in regard to the work of employees and supporting Danny's private interests? If, as Danny has claimed, "3ABN is the Lord's ministry", is Danny Shelton picking the Lord's pockets?
For those who find the names Dave Everett and Larry Welch unfamiliar, perhaps a little history 3ABN history is in order. Dave Everett and his wife were both employed at 3ABN: ET, the head of the 3ABN music studios, and Dave did various jobs around 3ABN, anything from seeding grass, to construction and taking care of Danny’s horses. Included in their perks was a rent free apartment in the music complex which ET helped design and decorate. Neither Dave or ET are Seventh-day Adventists. When the school complex was built and a beautiful gym floor was put down, Dave was one of the guys that Danny pulled off of their regular duties to come and play basketball with him in the afternoons on 3ABN’s dime.
Larry Welch is also an interesting case. Previously, before Larry became a part of the 3ABN pastoral staff, he oversaw construction. Actually, he didn’t do all that much, but he was paid double the salary of other 3ABN workers with similar levels of responsibility. In addition to his other duties Larry has been a long time member of the 3ABN Board of Directors. One of his main qualifications was to back up everything Danny said at board meetings and horse duty. His wife worked in the accounting department.
For those who find the names Dave Everett and Larry Welch unfamiliar, perhaps a little history 3ABN history is in order. Dave Everett and his wife were both employed at 3ABN: ET, the head of the 3ABN music studios, and Dave did various jobs around 3ABN, anything from seeding grass, to construction and taking care of Danny’s horses. Included in their perks was a rent free apartment in the music complex which ET helped design and decorate. Neither Dave or ET are Seventh-day Adventists. When the school complex was built and a beautiful gym floor was put down, Dave was one of the guys that Danny pulled off of their regular duties to come and play basketball with him in the afternoons on 3ABN’s dime.
Larry Welch is also an interesting case. Previously, before Larry became a part of the 3ABN pastoral staff, he oversaw construction. Actually, he didn’t do all that much, but he was paid double the salary of other 3ABN workers with similar levels of responsibility. In addition to his other duties Larry has been a long time member of the 3ABN Board of Directors. One of his main qualifications was to back up everything Danny said at board meetings and horse duty. His wife worked in the accounting department.
There is much more that could be said, but this is intended to be just a little introduction...
Interesting, sister.
It would seem to me that the fair market value of the rent should be considered taxable income to the Everetts. I wonder if that was ever included on a W-2 or 1099?
It is also interesting to me that a member of the board of directors, the single group tasked with governance of 3ABN and its resources, would take part in an obvious diversion of organizational resources to the private benefit of the Sheltons. If I ever had any confidence in the board, it is now gone. When 3ABN is finally held accountable for these financial misdealings, a good deal of the responsibility should land firmly at the feet of these "directors".
For those who find the names Dave Everett and Larry Welch unfamiliar, perhaps a little history 3ABN history is in order. Dave Everett and his wife were both employed at 3ABN: ET, the head of the 3ABN music studios, and Dave did various jobs around 3ABN, anything from seeding grass, to construction and taking care of Danny’s horses. Included in their perks was a rent free apartment in the music complex which ET helped design and decorate. Neither Dave or ET are Seventh-day Adventists. When the school complex was built and a beautiful gym floor was put down, Dave was one of the guys that Danny pulled off of their regular duties to come and play basketball with him in the afternoons on 3ABN’s dime.
Larry Welch is also an interesting case. Previously, before Larry became a part of the 3ABN pastoral staff, he oversaw construction. Actually, he didn’t do all that much, but he was paid double the salary of other 3ABN workers with similar levels of responsibility. In addition to his other duties Larry has been a long time member of the 3ABN Board of Directors. One of his main qualifications was to back up everything Danny said at board meetings and horse duty. His wife worked in the accounting department.
There is much more that could be said, but this is intended to be just a little introduction...
Bonnie, on the same property where 3ABN has their worship center is a school, primarily for the children of the workers and Danny's grandchildren. The head teacher and her husband were both employed by 3ABN. He works in the pastoral department, his qualifications: none. But he refers to himself, both on air and when answering the telephone as "PASTOR Joe". The last head of the pastoral staff, John Dinzey had no pastoral training. He is currently head of the Latino department of 3ABN. In the current issue of the 3ABN World magazine there is a picture of him and they refer to him as Pastor John. The current head of the pastoral department is JD Quinn. Is JD an SDA pastor? No, but he is the husband of Shelley Quinn, who helped Danny write his ten commandments book. She also has her own program on 3ABN and is a department head at 3ABN. Larry Welch was a book evangelist and lay preacher over twenty years ago, but has some personal issues that should disqualify him for the pastoral department. Of course if you see what Danny has done to Linda, he probably has no problem with Larry Welch's behavior.
How do you become part of a pastoral department or even the head of the department without being a pastor? Easy answer, Bonnie, work for Danny Shelton at 3ABN!
The Quinns are both SDA's, but she has some questionably theology in the area of prayer. Primarily the pastoral department has been in charge of previewing outside programing for any questionable theology and for answering the 3ABN prayer line. I remember one fiasco when “Pastor” Joe O'Brien decided that he would be a match maker for two individuals with whom he had contact on the prayer line. He knew neither one of them personally, they lived in different areas of the country and were of very dissimilar ages. Hopefully an SDA pastor or someone with proper training would not have attempted something so foolish, for all "Pastor" Joe knew the guy could have been a serial killer. That's why we have organizations like Adventist Contact. I had a friend who joined it because whe had not met anyone who she had any serious interest in locally, but there were some basic built in safe quards: everyone who joined had to fill out a very detailed questionnaire and have a referrel letter from their SDA pastor.
I have no problem with Christians from other denominations, but I would not hire them to work in an SDA ministry, especially in leading positions. Too many opportunities for problems because of differences in Biblical understanding.
Dave Everett and his wife were both employed at 3ABN: ET, the head of the 3ABN music studios, and Dave did various jobs around 3ABN, anything from seeding grass, to construction and taking care of Danny’s horses. ...
Larry Welch is also an interesting case. ... His wife worked in the accounting department.
It is beginning to sound like a small city. Had no idea so much was involved. As 3ABN supplies the facility for education on the premises,who pays tution? Or is that a perk of employment? Teachers need to be paid and text books etc need to be purchased.
QuoteI guess Danny wouldn't need that equipment if 3ABN just "happened" to have it!! And maybe 3ABN just "happened" to have a horse trailer, too!
If he hauls hay it can be done with a pickup but rather tedious as it requires more trips.
Why would 3abn have farm equipment
Dave Everett and his wife were both employed at 3ABN: ET, the head of the 3ABN music studios, and Dave did various jobs around 3ABN, anything from seeding grass, to construction and taking care of Danny’s horses. ...
Larry Welch is also an interesting case. ... His wife worked in the accounting department.
Past tense for three of the four?
I'm thinking there will be several topics 3ABN might not be able to explain in court. I happen to know an employee (still there, I believe) who was involved in building a barn for Danny, at Danny's residence on Hwy 34, on company time, with supplies purchased by 3ABN. Go figure.
I don't think 3abn could explain a baler. Possibly the rest of it.
It would be more likely he bought hay.
irspro,
Interesting! Duffy said they gave 7 years of documents, 2000-2006. What can we infer from that as far as the statutes of limitations go? That the 3-year limit didn't apply for one of the stated reasons? Is that a reasonable conclusion?
Or that not even the 6-year limit applied, but no records exist before 2000 anymore?
Or is there a different SoL publication for Form 990's and Form990-T's filed in connection with Form 990's?
Seems like we are due for the 2007 Form 990 to be made available. I can't wait!!
Seems like we are due for the 2007 Form 990 to be made available. I can't wait!!
My bet is that they extend until October 15. Why give us further fodder for discovery???
Gailon Arthur Joy
You're probably right. Although the first extension gave them until August 15, and a second extension will give them until November 15. This particular audit report could be fascinating...Seems like we are due for the 2007 Form 990 to be made available. I can't wait!!
My bet is that they extend until October 15. Why give us further fodder for discovery???
Gailon Arthur Joy
You're probably right. Although the first extension gave them until August 15, and a second extension will give them until November 15. This particular audit report could be fascinating...Seems like we are due for the 2007 Form 990 to be made available. I can't wait!!
My bet is that they extend until October 15. Why give us further fodder for discovery???
Gailon Arthur Joy
Good grief, they get 90 days not 60?
GAJ
My thought is that 3ABN probably needed to file a 990-T, not because of royalties but because of lease payments for the Subway restaurant, Tae Kwon Do place, and barber shop. I would think the leases from those places would be unrelated business income.
If 3ABN produced more than 3 years of documents because of one of the reasons given in that manual, then there is no way that there was no discrepancy or infraction.
Jog your "common sense" Bob in that leases are rents, just a little term differences. You're getting too technical and Bonnie said I wasn't even an auditor while Snoop locked the door behind.
My understanding, irspro, is that the barber shop, Subway restaurant, and Tae Kwon Do place were in a strip mall in West Frankfort, not on 3ABN premises. That strip mall was bought by 3ABN from a fellow the same day that fellow bought Danny's house. It look like 3ABN buying the mall gave the fellow the cash to buy Danny's house.
Then later, as the story goes, 3ABN gave away the strip mall to West Frankfort.
I'm thinking there will be several topics 3ABN might not be able to explain in court. I happen to know an employee (still there, I believe) who was involved in building a barn for Danny, at Danny's residence on Hwy 34, on company time, with supplies purchased by 3ABN. Go figure.
I don't think 3abn could explain a baler. Possibly the rest of it.
It would be more likely he bought hay.
I am just shocked beyond belief...and where are all the defenders with this bit of PRIVATE INUREMENT NEWS???And of course that was all legitimate, right? So legitimate it lead to an IRS Exoneration letter!!!
Boy, this thread is getting interesting!!!
Now how would you know that? Are you kidding me??? You actually spoke to an employee that is still there and he told you that DANNY LEE SHELTON PRIVATELY INURED HIMSELF? Was that with money that came from the stockholders in the pews or was it simply OPM contributions to the SHELTON BUSINESS !!!
By the way, I want that persons name rank and serial number to see if he is already on the witness list? Think he would squeal like a pig under oath in a US District Courtroom? And how many others will squeal like a pig under oath in the US District Courtroom???
Not much of a pork supporter, but I thank the good Lord for Pigs every day!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
Nary a soul from either POV has mentioned that Linda Shelton was right there with her former husband, until May of 2004, benefiting from any of the alleged "private inurement" from the misuse of 3ABN funds and labor.
Interesting, sister.
It would seem to me that the fair market value of the rent should be considered taxable income to the Everetts. I wonder if that was ever included on a W-2 or 1099?
It is also interesting to me that a member of the board of directors, the single group tasked with governance of 3ABN and its resources, would take part in an obvious diversion of organizational resources to the private benefit of the Sheltons. If I ever had any confidence in the board, it is now gone. When 3ABN is finally held accountable for these financial misdealings, a good deal of the responsibility should land firmly at the feet of these "directors".
Nary a soul from either POV has mentioned that Linda Shelton was right there with her former husband, until May of 2004, benefiting from any of the alleged "private inurement" from the misuse of 3ABN funds and labor.
I await with eager anticipation the responses from Julius Child. And do you have authority to write the check that belongs to Linda for Half the value?
Breaking story just ahead!!! Then we could see Walsh vs Joy...should be a neat match-up!!! Wonder if she will comment for the story?
If it exonerates the slandered and defamed it is most fulfilling. It is too bad you see no value in the service provided to the hapless victims...but then you would not understand that, would you?
It is too bad someone did not do the same for your son and I can only say I wish I had known about it. I would have been happy to do the same.
And it is TOO BAD you find the published TRUTH so unbearable.
WRONG!! See my post below from a few days ago where I clearly referred to "the Sheltons."
Nary a soul from either POV has mentioned that Linda Shelton was right there with her former husband, until May of 2004, benefiting from any of the alleged "private inurement" from the misuse of 3ABN funds and labor.Interesting, sister.
It would seem to me that the fair market value of the rent should be considered taxable income to the Everetts. I wonder if that was ever included on a W-2 or 1099?
It is also interesting to me that a member of the board of directors, the single group tasked with governance of 3ABN and its resources, would take part in an obvious diversion of organizational resources to the private benefit of the Sheltons. If I ever had any confidence in the board, it is now gone. When 3ABN is finally held accountable for these financial misdealings, a good deal of the responsibility should land firmly at the feet of these "directors".
Snoopy, I stand corrected. Please accept my apology. I thought you were referring to the Shelton family that was more specifically being discussed as personally benefitting from the ebay sales and etc. I saw other family member names being bandied about but didn't see reference to Linda Shelton, even when mention was made of the years 2000 - 2006, for which copies of the documents were turned over to the IRS.
Question; was Linda Shelton still Danny's wife when the barn was built using 3ABN labor and materials, per your acquaintance?WRONG!! See my post below from a few days ago where I clearly referred to "the Sheltons."
Nary a soul from either POV has mentioned that Linda Shelton was right there with her former husband, until May of 2004, benefiting from any of the alleged "private inurement" from the misuse of 3ABN funds and labor.Interesting, sister.
It would seem to me that the fair market value of the rent should be considered taxable income to the Everetts. I wonder if that was ever included on a W-2 or 1099?
It is also interesting to me that a member of the board of directors, the single group tasked with governance of 3ABN and its resources, would take part in an obvious diversion of organizational resources to the private benefit of the Sheltons. If I ever had any confidence in the board, it is now gone. When 3ABN is finally held accountable for these financial misdealings, a good deal of the responsibility should land firmly at the feet of these "directors".
Both 3ABN and me were investigated by the IRS. I now understand that the investigation took approx. 10-12 months.
Yes, there were numerous allegations by several people on different forums which call themselves SDA (that's another subject I won't go into today) of financial mis management of 3ABN and myself personally. They have accused me of personal inurement and on and on.
After nearly a year of investigation and over 100,000 pages of documents supplied to the IRS by 3ABN, outside auditors, my publishers,my personal accountants and auditors, dating back over the last six years, the case has now been closed with the IRS!
Not one infraction by 3ABN or me personally was named. The IRS has destroyed all the documents. I only know this as our attorneys received a call from the IRS agent involved wanting to know if we wanted all the documents back or if we wanted the IRS to destroy them. We asked them to destroy the records.
I want to add that we were not asked by the IRS to pay any renumeration whatsoever.
I'm told by my attorneys that the IRS agents involved were very professional, and very courteous. My attorney told me from the outset that he believed that we would come out clean in this investigation as he and his colleagues had unturned every stone looking for a troubled spot in our finances and couldn't find any. After he met the IRS agent he commented to me that he believed her to be a person of integrity simply looking for truth.
This outcome was a great victory for 3ABN as the little mostly SDA forum group led by at least two people that Stan alluded to, were constantly claiming and spreading the news that they had proof of financial wrong doing by myself and 3ABN. I find it interesting that Sister White makes a statment that we have more to fear from within than from without!
Also interesting is the fact that even though, 3ABN has been cleared of wrong doing and the IRS has destroyed all of the 100,000 plus documents, this same little group still claims wrong financial doing by myself and 3ABN. What at first looked like a bad thing to be investigated by the IRS, now is clearly a real blessing! All of the accusers have been proven false accusers by the highest financial authority in the land!
When people have an agenda of pride, holding a grudge, selfishness, etc.,they will never see the truth as it is blinded by their motives!
Thanks to all of you who pray and financially support 3ABN, we continue, by God's grace, to herald the 3 Angels messages to the world!
"This outcome was a great victory for 3ABN as the little mostly SDA forum group led by at least two people that Stan alluded to, were constantly claiming and spreading the news that they had proof of financial wrong doing by myself and 3ABN."
And doesn't he deny above that the IRS were given any records going back to 1998?
"This outcome was a great victory for 3ABN as the little mostly SDA forum group led by at least two people that Stan alluded to, were constantly claiming and spreading the news that they had proof of financial wrong doing by myself and 3ABN."
And doesn't he deny above that the IRS were given any records going back to 1998?
Would the IRS allow Danny to dictate what records they were to be given? Isn't it more likely that the IRS would come in and ask for the records to be given for the years that they were interested in reviewing?
Bob, before or during the IRS investigation/audit, did you or anyone else provide the IRS with the information about the lot 6 real estate transaction that you allege to be private inurement by Danny and Linda Shelton? If the information was provided to them, why did they only ask for records going back 6 years?
irspro, can you help us understand why the IRS would only ask for financial records going back 6 years instead of 10?
I believe he already explained it as the three year and six year rule. I am not convinced that is correct as to any criminal investigation.
In any event, I want you to know that I agree with you that the PBJelly thread is fair game, relevant and needs to be more publicly aired. I have reason to believe that he was a significant player in the Lashley administration and knows full well that his allegations are blatant lies and in fact would have been a subject of several of my articles relating to the maladministration of AUC.
Gailon Arthur Joy
The real bottom line is that I personally read nothing short of possible misfeasance or malfeasance if there were 6 years of No-Changes(no infractions) with no further explanation unless the IRS has departed from the old SOP!
I agree in this area of thought that, if there is nothing to hide, then why are they so opposed to giving over that which has been requested in relation to the lawsuit both DS and 3ABN have launched against Joy & Pickle? ???
I am so confused! The IRS promised to notify me as soon as possible once the investigation was over. I haven't heard a thing! Does this mean it is still ongoing?
Color me so confused as well . . . why in the world would the IRS promise >you< they would notify you as soon as possible once the investigation was over? Unless . . .
Color me so confused as well . . . why in the world would the IRS promise >you< they would notify you as soon as possible once the investigation was over? Unless . . .
Unless what? Can you tell me?
Fran,
That's a fair question being asked to you.
Why would the IRS make such a promise to you?
I am so confused! The IRS promised to notify me as soon as possible once the investigation was over. I haven't heard a thing! Does this mean it is still ongoing?
Just a passing thought, left unstated, as to why you might be "promised" an update on the situation.
Maybe it's better if you fully answer the question. "Why in the world would the IRS promise >you< they would notify you as soon as possible once the investigation was over?" And, let's be clear here, you used the word "promise."
I am so confused! The IRS promised to notify me as soon as possible once the investigation was over. I haven't heard a thing! Does this mean it is still ongoing?
Yeah, that could very well be possible, huh? Thanks, Bob.
Bob, I believe the auditors from the Property Tax lawsuit said they failed to even record lease/rent income at all.
Where did that money go?
It was not listed/declared when the auditors came through.
Then they did start declaring rent income, but it decrease yearly thereafter. Why a decrease? Rents go up not down!
Anyman;
You answer my question and I will answer yours!
Go over to 3ABNTalk and resurrect all of my deleted posts and I might just be able to converse with you, Breezy, Sunny & Penny.!
I see you folks over there claim I had credibility. I have never claimed to have any credibility. Shame on 3ABN Talk! It is hard to claim what I don't have.
Please tell Sunny that I did not "suggest". What I did was "question." There is a big difference in the words. They need to post all of my posts for them to be able to claim credibility for themselves over on 3ABNTalk. Pieces and parts are not really fair are they?
I have no obligation to negotiate with you.
You are attempting to divert the thread from its natural course with your completely OT game. You were asked a question, your failure to respond, and the arrogance evident in your demand that I answer a question in order to have you answer my honest and relevant question leads one to wonder if there is an answer . . . and if there is if it is an embarrassing one causing you to avoid responding.
As for 3ABNTalk, if you have a problem with the admins and mods over there - then go over there and talk to them about it.
Anyman;
You answer my question and I will answer yours!
Go over to 3ABNTalk and resurrect all of my deleted posts and I might just be able to converse with you, Breezy, Sunny & Penny.!
I see you folks over there claim I had credibility. I have never claimed to have any credibility. Shame on 3ABN Talk! It is hard to claim what I don't have.
Please tell Sunny that I did not "suggest". What I did was "question." There is a big difference in the words. They need to post all of my posts for them to be able to claim credibility for themselves over on 3ABNTalk. Pieces and parts are not really fair are they?
No Comment on paragraph #1.
No Comment on paragraph #2.
I already did that. No Comment on paragraph #3.
Posted on: Today at 08:44:17 PMPosted by: anyman
Insert Quote
Quote from: Fran on Today at 07:31:59 PM
No Comment on paragraph #1.
No comment was requested.
Quote from: Fran on Today at 07:31:59 PM
No Comment on paragraph #2.
No comment was requested.
Quote from: Fran on Today at 07:31:59 PM
I already did that. No Comment on paragraph #3.
No comment was requested.
So that being cleared up, there is one thing that isn't. You still have not divulged why the IRS would promise to contact you on the outcome of their investigation. What relationship do you have with the IRS that you would be privy to the results of their work?
Now with your ardent refusal to answer such a simple question, one I will add that results from your very own comments, one has to wonder why you refuse to answer the question.
Could it be:
1. That the reality of the situation has you concerned that the claims of Gilley, Duffy, and Bachelor are indeed truth.
2. A little window into your character.
We'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is the first and that you realize that your phone is not ringing because there is no reason for them to call you - that you are growing aware that they are not ever going to call you. One wonders why you haven't been provided some information by your inside informant as well.
Ain't life grand?
Ain't life grand?
I am so confused! The IRS promised to notify me as soon as possible once the investigation was over. I haven't heard a thing! Does this mean it is still ongoing?
While I will wait for Fran to speak for herself, I need to wonder at this portion of your post:
Recommendation(s) for: whistleblower
Whistleblower - Informant Award
The IRS may pay awards to people who provide specific and credible information to the IRS if the information results in the collection of taxes, penalties, interest or other amounts from a noncompliant taxpayer.
One could reasonably speculate than, that since the IRS did not contact Fran her information did not lead to the collection of "taxes, penalties, interest or other amounts from a noncompliant taxpayer. This seems to, at least circumstantially, corroborate the claims that the investigation is over and neither Danny, nor 3ABN were found "guilty" of any infractions. The above seems to indicate that there will be no contact if there is no recovery.
So, we still need Fran to explain why the IRS would "promise" to contact her at the end of their investigation.
SAM,
You remain delusional!!!. Consider a psychiatrist to deal with your ISSUES!!!
In the interim, why don't you ask Danny what the documents just produced from Remnant Publications will demonstrate? If he survives the question, I would love to have a picture of his reaction and a report on his
"SPIN" and the "bomb damage assessment". The try the same trash on a Federal Jury!!!
By the way, Thank Duffy for that letter...excellent exhibit as we declare 3ABN, DLS Shelton and their counsel "Knew or Should have known that the allegations by the plaintiff were factually challenged, blatantly
false and designed to muzzle freedom of speech and the press and was a misuse of process constituting malicious prosecution...". You will see the remainder soon enough!!!
Wonder if we should add Doug Batchelor and Danny's dear Brother, Ronnie, et al? What a hoax on ASI and adventism!!! What a hoax 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton are proving to be. Why should a ministry that is a
complete farce and represents the worst in hypocritical adventism be allowed to continue in it's current form?
Why should a ministry that has repeatedly violated the public trust be allowed to continue broadcasting and
"PRETENDING" to be the face of Adventism?
Better come up with some rational basis quickly or the gates of hades will be unleashed upon its own!!!
Maybe, between Anyman and yourself, you can muster up some sort of rational defense, but no jury will buy it!!!
Cry in your soup and pray the Lord delivers you from the justice that is sure to rain upon you.
When you lives in a glass house, one should be very careful about throwing stones!!!
Need the number of a good psychiatrist?
Gailon Arthur Joy
Well that sounds like intriguing news. So you finally got documents huh? Remnant sure put up a good fight but I guess they finally gave in. What do you want to bet the relationship between DS and Remnant is a bit strained these days?? I wonder who will be publishing the next DS book, if there is one that is... Hhmm - maybe a sequel to "The Church Rumor Mill"?? Maybe Pacific Press? :ROFL:
Has DS burned the bridge to nowhere??
You will notice that Mr. Joy does not say he has seen the documents. He may have worded so that you might assume he has, but it doesn't go so far as to make that claim. Why? Because it is very possible that these documents were delivered to the Judge under seal. This would mean that Mr. Joy will not see the documents unless the Judge makes a finding that they are necessary to their defense. These types of stomping around claiming victory have happened before and then, while it isn't shared with you by the GAJ/RP team, he reality of the actions is not positive for the defendants.
Now Mr. Joy can jump and down all he wants and claim victory that documents were delivered to the judge (an insinuation at this point and not backed up by anything substantive), but unless he has seen them, evaluated them, he really has nothing more than he had previously.
It might be wise to wait for the celebration until something has really happened.
You will notice that Mr. Joy does not say he has seen the documents. He may have worded so that you might assume he has, but it doesn't go so far as to make that claim. Why? Because it is very possible that these documents were delivered to the Judge under seal. This would mean that Mr. Joy will not see the documents unless the Judge makes a finding that they are necessary to their defense. These types of stomping around claiming victory have happened before and then, while it isn't shared with you by the GAJ/RP team, the reality of the actions is not positive for the defendants.
Now Mr. Joy can jump and down all he wants and claim victory that documents were delivered to the judge (an insinuation at this point and not backed up by anything substantive), but unless he has seen them, evaluated them, he really has nothing more than he had previously.
It might be wise to wait for the celebration until something has really happened.Well that sounds like intriguing news. So you finally got documents huh? Remnant sure put up a good fight but I guess they finally gave in. What do you want to bet the relationship between DS and Remnant is a bit strained these days?? I wonder who will be publishing the next DS book, if there is one that is... Hhmm - maybe a sequel to "The Church Rumor Mill"?? Maybe Pacific Press? :ROFL:
Has DS burned the bridge to nowhere??
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
1 Peter 5:8
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not rightousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:10
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1 John 2:9
Excellent verses, JuneBug. They aren't very flattering toward Danny Shelton, are they?
It is never righteousness to cover up child molestation allegations, nor to suggest that if a minor was consenting, that someone makes the despicable iniquity less revolting and abominable.
Nor is it righteousness to not report all one's income on an affidavit when required to do so.
Nor is it righteousness to sue your brethren when they have concerns about child molestation, lack of due process, deception, and private inurement.
Agreed?
NO WAY!! Isn't an affidavit a legal document? Filed with a court? Are you saying that Danny did not complete the form accurately? Are you saying that he was attempting to hide income? Isn't that illegal?
Excellent verses, JuneBug. They aren't very flattering toward Danny Shelton, are they?
It is never righteousness to cover up child molestation allegations, nor to suggest that if a minor was consenting, that someone makes the despicable iniquity less revolting and abominable.
Nor is it righteousness to not report all one's income on an affidavit when required to do so.
Nor is it righteousness to sue your brethren when they have concerns about child molestation, lack of due process, deception, and private inurement.
Agreed?
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.
1 Peter 5:8
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not rightousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:10
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
1 John 2:9
Mr. Pickle and Mr. Joy like to twist the words of those who post in favor of 3abn. I will always stand for God's work and workers. To make it more "clear" to those who are lurking and reading here: the Bible verses I posted were directed towards Mr. Joy in his post just before mine above. You can tell by reading Mr. Joy's post that it is very evil. Unless he repents, he in danger of being lost eternally.
Mr. Joy's deep hatred of "anyman" is obvious in his post. Those who hate their brother are in danger of hellfire. Thus the verses I posted.
To say of your brother "you are a curse upon the face of God and the church" is from the devil and can only originate from the devil. To say "it is with contempt that I even breathe your family name" of a good outstanding Christian family is from the devil--from hell. To say "anyman" does not "deserve Grace" is a Judgement that is not yours to give.
Mr. Joy, you presume too much. You can malign anyman and others all you want, but it will never change the truth of the matter. It is small men who say such things as you have said in your post to "anyman".
In having said these things, Mr. Joy, about "anyman" you have said them to Jesus Christ himself. You have nailed the nails in His hands and thrust the spear in His side by saying these things to "your brother." You have spit in the Lord's face by saying these things above.
Serious things to think about isn't it? Envy is a terrible thing but it is obvious you envy "anyman." Envy cherished in the heart leads to jealousy. This jealousy then leads to hatred. Your hatred was clear in your post from last night towards "anyman." Then if hatred is cherished in the heart, it turns to murder. Is this the direction you want to go Mr. Joy? Are you willing to murder someone because they stand for the truth?
Haman was willing to murder Mordecai and Cain was willing to murder Abel. Judas was willing to murder the Lord Jesus. But we all know what happens to murderers. Serious things to think about.
I pray for you Mr. Joy.
(Please--don't twist my words to direct them towards Danny Shelton or anyone else).
What hypocricy!!! With the blood trail left by 3ABN and it's officers and directors for nearly two decades, you dare speak to me regarding hatred? Are you serious?
Shall we revue the history here, starting with the founders:
Originally four founders and the Greers (Jim and Ann); Ann Greer called the Annointed to task for spending issues early on and was one of the first 3ABN'ers to feel the wrath of the President.
Next to go with what were asserted as false accusations at the time was his brother and co-founder, thrown under the bus by a board that aligned itself early on with Danny Lee Shelton. Shortly thereafter the sister in law, Mary Lou was thrown to the wolves, another co-founder. Danny's own mother was quite verbose and was recorded at the time stating her displeasure with the annointed one as she resigned the board in protest.
Going forward, there is Cousin Steve who also protested financial concerns and met a similar fate. Then there was the Melanie letter, seven pages of pure unadulterated concerns, including allegations of the son-in-law against Bro Tommy, that were shared with board members by then Conference President, BJ Christiansen, but the annointed avoided the bullet yet again. Brother Tommy hit the road, as charges swirled about him, to sell the cable industry on 3ABN (anyone wonder why he was not a founder?) prior to landing in Virginia and another field of fine young victims (one was alleged to be a young nephew in law).
From there the pathway to the woodshed was filled with a vast array of 3ABN victims, including a Clem or two, allegedly for having the audacity to point the finger at improper conduct that brought in the feds and cost them money to come into compliance.
But moving past all the 1990's bloodshed, which even included your former legal pied piper, Harold Follet, we move into the 2004 period and lay open for world the horrible and vicious and the most incidious of all betrayals: Danny Lee Shelton builds a case against his wife, a false case, by the way that is bearing false witness!!! Then the powerful and unchallenged annointed one gradually builds a chorus group, the first prevaricator, a morally and factually challenged Brenda Walsh, followed by the purported Pastor of the Thompsonville Church who virtually closed his eyes to the truth in exchange for TV time.
Not to be outdone, a well rehearsed group of Danny supporters, orchestrated by the Legal pied Piper, Counsellor Nicholas Miller, simply took up the annointed one's chorus without ever seeing the first ounce of real evidence based upon the subtly filthy lucre of a husband determined to rid himself of the old grey mare. This resulted in a despicable violation of their own "due process" and a clear and open attempt to deprive a woman of her very legacy. She, Linda Sue Shelton, was thrown to the wolves based upon the most incredulous tall tales and vicious rumors ever assembled against a single person in church history since Ellen G. White.
She found herself divorced, homeless, and largely friendless and religated to a decrepit mobile home with ears!!! Determined to keep going, she moved forward to build her own ministry and was immediately met by a conspiratorial directorate, bound and determined to ratify the unratifiable: Linda Sue Shelton was a spiritual adulteress and had refused to buckle to the demands of the annointed one and his cadre of miscreant "christians" known to the world as the "face of adventism". How dare she defy the dictates of the Danny Shelton supporters??? It became acceptable to slander, defame and even libel Linda Sue Shelton as the ends justified the means (a jesuit concept applied liberally by the 3ABN Directorate) in an unrelenting effort by the directorate to protect the annointed one!!! After all, the annointed one was the ministry!!! It would not survive without him!!!
But, as time went one, the pied piper, Counsellor Nicholas Miller, began to suspect the annointed one was neither annointed or the one!!! In fact, as the evidence built of the annointed ones misconduct, Counsellor Nicholas Miller's consciense began to trouble him and as he built a premise that perhaps all was not as appeared, and built a portfolio of evidence that demonstrated his misgivings were justified, the annointed one built a claim against Miller claiming he overbilled the ministry and had even Miller thrown to the wolves. The board, once again faced with evidence of wrongdoing by the annointed one, opted to make the reporter the victim and circle the wagons round about the annointed one to protect the annointed one. The annointed one could simply do no wrong, regardless of the evidence. The cult was solidified. The ministry saved from the attacks of satan!!! Or was it saved by the attacks of Satan???
Now, despite the fact that there was no evidence that Linda Sue Shelton was guilty of adultery and despite the fact that there was a growing body of concern regarding the relationship between Brandy and Danny, the 3ABN Board takes upon ITSELF ecclesiatical authority and confers upon Danny Lee Shelton the right to remarry, all in violation of the biblical canon given by Chjrist Himself!!! Now, that is blasphemy!!! In so many ways I dare not define them all!!!
Then, there is that divorce case...Danny perpetuates the premise that he is penniless, despite knowing that he would be the recipient of substantial royalties from TCTR and the Ten Commnadments campaign, files affidavitts with the court that are...well, we will call them factually challenged, others, including the Honorable Court, are likely to call it...dare we say the words???... contempt, fraudulent misrepresentation and PERJURY!!! Oh, my!!!
And shall we step forward four years after the divorce in Guam, four years after the severance agreement with 3ABN, and Linda Sue Shelton is to speak before a supporting ministry congregation in Walla Walla Washington...
three 3ABN directors, Fjarli, McNeilus and Thompson, take it upon themselves to make a point of calling five seperate men, some even ordained ministers, to slander and defame, even at this late date, Linda Sue Shelton. The effort was clearly designed to prevent her public ministry, but It was of none affect. Nevertheless, Fjarli dashed from Oregon to Walla Walla to meet the undefined threat...and within months met what can be best defined as a partial judgement as the gift of speech is torn from him!!! Is a similar judgement awaiting the other two? Only the prophet would know, but I would be on my knees and asking Linda Sue Shelton for her forgiveness!!! But not these proud and defiant men of the Lord's Annointed inner circle. Never to be!!! A Jesuit tradition not easilly forgotten by the 3ABN cult as they assert "The ends justify the Means!!!" After all, they work for the annointed one.
Why try such a foolhardy conspiracy??? What would be gained??? The Better question would ultimately be asked: what would be lost??? About $3,000,000 I would guess!!! Or about 200,000 per board member at 3ABN and that without any punitive award, most certainly justified here!!! Malice is clearly demonstrated.
Of course, all these actions were done in "christian love" by those of self appointed "ecclesiatical authority"!!! Therefore, these acts demonstrating hatred and contempt for those who would dare stand up to the annointed, are unbiblical in fact, defamation in fact, slanderous in fact, and blasphemous in fact, but "the ends justifies the means" ...therefore, it is good!!! Thus saith the annointed!!!
I SAY,THEY, EVERY ONE OF THEM, MUST BE MET HEAD ON AND SWEPT ASIDE!!!! They are a blasphemy against the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the Three Angels Messages and the Laodicean Message. The Lord will most certainly "spews thee out of His mouth" and choose others to lead the Remnant movement, most certainly just around the corner!!!
The message and the history is clear, the future is not clear. In fact, it is in their hands and if the past is indicative of the future, I have little hope for reformation.
So, Junebug, I appreciate your prayers, but 3ABN needs prayer and decisive action. They do not need more of the same old history, muddy as it is. That should be the focus of your kind efforts and your daily prayer. 3ABN cannot avoid the inevitable collission with its' own history, but it can avoid a most certain judgement of the Lord if it would simply repent, ask forgiveness of those they have tread upon and finds reformation in biblical standards and "christian" due process. And they must make whole those they have wronged. To be forgiven, one must forgive. I await evidence of their reformation!!!
Gailon Arthur JoyMr. Pickle and Mr. Joy like to twist the words of those who post in favor of 3abn. I will always stand for God's work and workers. To make it more "clear" to those who are lurking and reading here: the Bible verses I posted were directed towards Mr. Joy in his post just before mine above. You can tell by reading Mr. Joy's post that it is very evil. Unless he repents, he in danger of being lost eternally.
Mr. Joy's deep hatred of "anyman" is obvious in his post. Those who hate their brother are in danger of hellfire. Thus the verses I posted.
To say of your brother "you are a curse upon the face of God and the church" is from the devil and can only originate from the devil. To say "it is with contempt that I even breathe your family name" of a good outstanding Christian family is from the devil--from hell. To say "anyman" does not "deserve Grace" is a Judgement that is not yours to give.
Mr. Joy, you presume too much. You can malign anyman and others all you want, but it will never change the truth of the matter. It is small men who say such things as you have said in your post to "anyman".
In having said these things, Mr. Joy, about "anyman" you have said them to Jesus Christ himself. You have nailed the nails in His hands and thrust the spear in His side by saying these things to "your brother." You have spit in the Lord's face by saying these things above.
Serious things to think about isn't it? Envy is a terrible thing but it is obvious you envy "anyman." Envy cherished in the heart leads to jealousy. This jealousy then leads to hatred. Your hatred was clear in your post from last night towards "anyman." Then if hatred is cherished in the heart, it turns to murder. Is this the direction you want to go Mr. Joy? Are you willing to murder someone because they stand for the truth?
Haman was willing to murder Mordecai and Cain was willing to murder Abel. Judas was willing to murder the Lord Jesus. But we all know what happens to murderers. Serious things to think about.
I pray for you Mr. Joy.
(Please--don't twist my words to direct them towards Danny Shelton or anyone else).
Who would have thought that the scenarios being played out would be so much in the public eye. Can you say embarrassment for Adventists. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the future of our church in the world's eyes will take a major hit when a trial occurs. We as Adventists will become front page news. :praying:
Who would have thought that the scenarios being played out would be so much in the public eye. Can you say embarrassment for Adventists. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the future of our church in the world's eyes will take a major hit when a trial ocurrs. We as Adventists will become front page news. :praying:
Erra..yeah...ok...Bonnie. God asked Christians to spread the Gospel to all the world....you must have a little credibility for them to listen in the first place. Some of this in on us. Being known for religious elitism not being the least of our problems......... :dunno:
Anyway, I don't really believe we have that much to lose in the first place....we are already in the "cult" section of many bookstores, can't get shake David Koresh and other offshoots, etc. Lining to folk about who we are when conducting Rev. Sems, maybe just a lie of omission there........We needed some serious public relations long before Danny and his sad story.[/color]
And I wish you would quit your griping. You make general statements that you can't back up, but that tend to make people think negatively about this one or that one.
Now how would you feel if someone had come along when your son was going through his situation and repeatedly said, over and over again, that your son and that so-called pastor deserve each other?
I think I know how you would have felt, and I think I know how you would have used your tongue or pen or keyboard to chop them up into little bits for saying something so unkind and stupid.
Post edited to remove inappropriate content
I have no clue what you are talking about. I did not realize daryl had edited a post.
As for the adminstration or their actions I don't think that is what I said.
I asked Bob some questions that apparently was wrong to ask of him
Then, Bonnie, maybe you should get a clue.
I have no clue what you are talking about. I did not realize daryl had edited a post.
As for the adminstration or their actions I don't think that is what I said.
I asked Bob some questions that apparently was wrong to ask of him
Now I see what has been edited out. I will note that it is against the rules to quote statments made by some.
No, Bonnie, it is not "against the rules to quote statements made by some". But I think you are smart enough to note that if someone else (ANYONE else) posted something that was edited out by Daryl, it just might not be a good idea to post it again - ya think?
QuoteNo, Bonnie, it is not "against the rules to quote statements made by some". But I think you are smart enough to note that if someone else (ANYONE else) posted something that was edited out by Daryl, it just might not be a good idea to post it again - ya think?
It must be against someone's rule as it went poof. Look, I already told you I did not see that. So it was neither a good idea or bad, I simply did not see it
I have heard others say that,but I have not found that in my little church. But then I have attended the same church since I was three. It has had it's ups and downs but I have never seen them hide who they were for a Rev seminars.
I had a brief stint going to another church because of our sons and did see varying problems,but not anyone trying to hide who we were for any type of meetings. In fact they were/are very active in the community.
When the dust settles Bob and Gailon will go their merry way and DS and 3ABN will go theirs as will LS. What will be left is alot of animosity and bad feelings.
I am of the firm opinion that the four main players deserve one another.
When the dust settles Bob and Gailon will go their merry way and DS and 3ABN will go theirs as will LS. What will be left is alot of animosity and bad feelings.
I am of the firm opinion that the four main players deserve one another.
Girl, flesh and blood did not give this to you. The real damage will be others who have seen all of those meintioned above as leaders. Not all are spiritually mature to separte the sin from the sinner, especially in leadership.
When the dust settles Bob and Gailon will go their merry way and DS and 3ABN will go theirs as will LS. What will be left is alot of animosity and bad feelings.
I am of the firm opinion that the four main players deserve one another.
Girl, flesh and blood did not give this to you. The real damage will be others who have seen all of those meintioned above as leaders. Not all are spiritually mature to separte the sin from the sinner, especially in leadership.
When the dust settles..an interesting assessment, particularly given our early efforts to simply bring reformation to the few issues we were aware of, specifically that the charges against Linda were unsupporteded by the evidence and that Tommy Ray Shelton, a non-SDA "minister" and alleged pedophile, should most certainly not be in charge of programming for Three Angels Broadcasting Network. Yup, that is how it started. Simple as that and most of the effort was directly with DLS and Dr Walt.
As we moved along, the allegations of financial abuses and the errant firing of the trust services department raised their ugly heads.
Then ASI and the collapse of ecclesiastical efforts to resolve the issues. I e-mailed my concerns, Danny responded and Danny used the bully pulpit of the Thursday Night 3ABN Live.
We responded by building our own pulpit and preaching about the errant issues. They claim someone was listening and we damaged their bottom line, apparently rather permanently, despite Doug Batchelor's endorsements.
They filed suite to bring our pulpit down,,,but it survived!!! We defended and now have the smoking guns and the loaded weapons as well. Will we have to fire them?
Now the economy has us all in it's grips and escatology may well be laying foundations for the a false reformation and a National Sunday Law. And instead of doing door to door work, we are shooting at each other from behind parapets with an uncertain longevity. But shoot we must. Yes, we will have to fire them, I would suppose.
But leaders? Of who, of what, When and where are we leading people to? It is a historical fact that no-one really likes the gunfighters turned sheriffs that clean up the streets of Dodge City!!! We will be nothing but a forgotten footnote in someone's history of 3ABN and in far less than five years, assuming we have that long, from our arrival at Boot Hill, we will long since have been forgotten, our epitaph of little note and some will even declare "good riddance" in bright orange paint across the marker!!!
Leaders??? Of what??? When I turn my head I do not see anyone following me to the courthouse or even doing as we suggest? On the contrary, those with real claims shrink from battle and avoid conflict at any cost, regardless of the principles involved. There is no army following me!!! If there were, this would have been over long ago and the truth would be clear as crystal, 3 ABN would have a constituency, damages would have been recovered from 3ABN's leaders and Linda would back to doing her Front Porch Liturgies. Trust services could be trusted and those damaged would have been made whole, reformation would be unifying and cathartic and sin would be caste out of the camp.
Instead, we shall most certainly duel to the death of one or the other and given the state of the economy, 3ABN's chances of survival have decreased. A sad end to what began as a simple reform effort. Sad end to what should have been a confession, reformation and restoration...oh, what a testimony to the 3ABN viewing public of the value of Christianity. What a day of rejoicing that should have been!!! Love restored, mercy and justice exonerated, and a cathartic re-union of all the parties bringing the very best of talents to bear to warn a very badly mislead world, a world now looking for answers in ways we had never imagined!!!
Does your neighbor know you have a clear view of the coming eschatology?
Do they know that the demise of the World Trade Center buildings likely began a clear eschatolgy leading to the end of time?
Do they know that the Sunami moved "islands out of their places, as yet another eschatological event unfolded? Do they know that the leadership of this world now struggle in vain to put business back on a sound footing?
Do they know that National Apostacy leads to National Ruin?
Do they know the implications of that as the false reformation brings upon us the National Sunday Law?
Do they know how important it is to be a part of the True Reformation and how that leads to the Loud Cry?
Do they know just how close the Loud Cry will bring us to the end of probation and the Universal Sunday Law?
Do they know the implications of probation closing?
Do they know the meaning of the Death Decree?
Do they know why all eyes will be upon the Nebulus in the belt of Orion?
Do they even know that the second coming of Our Lord and Saviour is imminent?
Do they know they need to prepare for that inevitable event?
DO THEY KNOW? And if not, do you know why?
No, it was not because 3ABN never came to your town or your cable company, it is because we did not warn them. It is because we did not have the courage to tell them that Jesus is coming again!!! that they need to prepare...or to even hand them a Great Controversy and read the dire warnings or The Desire of Ages and they get to know HIM.
Do they know to be wary of the "peace and safety" message? Do they know that McCain has no answers, Palin has no answers, Obama has no answers, Biden has no answers? Do they know that no human will have a solution, but that WE HAVE THE ANSWERS? Yes, YOU have the answers...we have the gift of prophecy and a biblically based truth that is perfectly logical and leads to answers and solutions to the dillemma ahead. Do we dare share it?
People, the time of trouble is dead ahead and how many men, women and children will be on your conscience as you wonder about your soul's safety? You must make the time that remains count!!! Every person warned is one less that will weighing on your conscience as the time of trouble unfolds. Every one saved will be a source of Joy as you contemplate the status of your soul as God withdraws HIS Spirit from an aposticized world!
It is now time for us all to stand up and be counted, for us all to take up the book work and spread the message, for us all to be prepared to give real Bible Studies that will expalin our Faith in detail. It is time for us all to leaders!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
When the dust settles..an interesting assessment, particularly given our early efforts to simply bring reformation to the few issues we were aware of, specifically that the charges against Linda were unsupporteded by the evidence and that Tommy Ray Shelton, a non-SDA "minister" and alleged pedophile, should most certainly not be in charge of programming for Three Angels Broadcasting Network. Yup, that is how it started. Simple as that and most of the effort was directly with DLS and Dr Walt.
As we moved along, the allegations of financial abuses and the errant firing of the trust services department raised their ugly heads.
Then ASI and the collapse of ecclesiastical efforts to resolve the issues. I e-mailed my concerns, Danny responded and Danny used the bully pulpit of the Thursday Night 3ABN Live.
We responded by building our own pulpit and preaching about the errant issues. They claim someone was listening and we damaged their bottom line, apparently rather permanently, despite Doug Batchelor's endorsements.
They filed suite to bring our pulpit down,,,but it survived!!! We defended and now have the smoking guns and the loaded weapons as well. Will we have to fire them?
But leaders? Of who, of what, When and where are we leading people to? It is a historical fact that no-one really likes the gunfighters turned sheriffs that clean up the streets of Dodge City!!! We will be nothing but a forgotten footnote in someone's history of 3ABN and in far less than five years, assuming we have that long, from our arrival at Boot Hill, we will long since have been forgotten, our epitaph of little note and some will even declare "good riddance" in bright orange paint across the marker!!!
Leaders??? Of what??? When I turn my head I do not see anyone following me to the courthouse or even doing as we suggest? On the contrary, those with real claims shrink from battle and avoid conflict at any cost, regardless of the principles involved. There is no army following me!!! If there were, this would have been over long ago and the truth would be clear as crystal, 3 ABN would have a constituency, damages would have been recovered from 3ABN's leaders and Linda would back to doing her Front Porch Liturgies. Trust services could be trusted and those damaged would have been made whole, reformation would be unifying and cathartic and sin would be caste out of the camp.
Most do not care.
Here's a concrete example of your making a statement that you have not backed up, and I don't think you can.
I disagree with you that most Adventists don't care that Danny Shelton replaced his talked-too-long-on-the-telephone wife with an alleged pedophile.
If you think otherwise, prove it.
QuoteHere's a concrete example of your making a statement that you have not backed up, and I don't think you can.
I disagree with you that most Adventists don't care that Danny Shelton replaced his talked-too-long-on-the-telephone wife with an alleged pedophile.
If you think otherwise, prove it.
Bob,
You have just made a concrete statement you cannot back up and demand proof from me.
I was shaking my head as I read this, and thinking that even Satan himself quotes the scripture to suit his purpose. He mixes the truth with his error and just babbles on. (the very definition of Babylon) We really need to pay attention! And learn to examine ourselves first and foremost...
( Closing door softly, and leaving...)
I was shaking my head as I read this, and thinking that even Satan himself quotes the scripture to suit his purpose. He mixes the truth with his error and just babbles on. (the very definition of Babylon) We really need to pay attention! And learn to examine ourselves first and foremost...
( Closing door softly, and leaving...)
Dear Ms. Rosa,
I am also closing the door softly, and leaving...
PB
I was shaking my head as I read this, and thinking that even Satan himself quotes the scripture to suit his purpose. He mixes the truth with his error and just babbles on. (the very definition of Babylon) We really need to pay attention! And learn to examine ourselves first and foremost...
( Closing door softly, and leaving...)
Dear Ms. Rosa,
I am also closing the door softly, and leaving...
PB
Me too....
Thank you. :)
bye nosir
bye pbjelly
bye rosa
bye ian
:wave:I was shaking my head as I read this, and thinking that even Satan himself quotes the scripture to suit his purpose. He mixes the truth with his error and just babbles on. (the very definition of Babylon) We really need to pay attention! And learn to examine ourselves first and foremost...
( Closing door softly, and leaving...)
Dear Ms. Rosa,
I am also closing the door softly, and leaving...
PB
Me too....
Thank you. :)
But you're ignoring the obvious: they aren't the ones who can exonerate!
Unless, of course, you want to assume that the pope can forgive sins on God's behalf. Otherwise, we simply have to wait until the IRS makes a pronouncement instead of relying upon someone's assumption.
But we really don't have to wait. Danny claimed that he falsified a figure on his 2003 tax return, and it appears that he told the truth.
And he bought a house in 1998 from 3ABN for $6,139, a price that 3ABN admits was below fair market value.
So exoneration isn't possible.
I find it interesting and revealing that it was DS the accuser who ended up remarrying, etc., whereas LS the accused never remarried, etc.