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[horsethief]

If Tommy's health condition is declining then that should be no surprise to any of us here. Tommy engaged in behavior that was detrimental to his health. Homosexuality is negative behavior and clearly has results that shorten a person's life. No person was born that way. It is clear rebellion against God.

[Gregory]

Behavior is a choice.

Gender preference is not a choice.  There is no evidence that people can chose their gender preference.

Homosexuality is determined by gender preference, not by behavior.  I once worked closely with homoswexuals.  Some were celebate and had been for several years.  All of them acknowledged their basic homosexuality.

The basis of sin that is charged against us is rebellion against God.  There is a list of Biblical texts that indicate that God does not charge us with sin without knowledge and/or conviction by the Holy Spirit.  See:  1 John 3:4; James 4:17; John 9:41; and John 15:22.

All of us may be born into a state of sin that requires the corrective action of God in our lives.  But outside of that personal rebellion against the convicting power of the Holy Spirit God does not charge us individually charge us.

Yes, sin exists outside of individual responsibility.  But, it is rebellion against knowledge that results with us being charged with sin.

Some would say that Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) is a result of sin.  But, I cannot imagine that any would say that God charges the new-born with FAS with personal sin.

[tinka]

It sounds as if Horsethief has read SP on this subject and as old as I am I can state that SP is correct on this. and Gregory with all the scientific issues or statements or whatever it causes one to ride the fence for however people are born comes from a lot of scientific theory.

After the child is born and changes that come about after birth usually are caused by extreme fanatical parental care and fanatical diet. The rest is plain and simple to me that being "born different" is caused by extreme fanatical living before hand. I can give you first hand evidence from watching in horror a relative from birth to now waiting death. He was not born that way.

If you want to look at scientifically as in biblical days of Sodom and Gomorrah
They were told in Lev not to mingle the seed and don't mess with it as they did the animals and disgusting amalgamations and all God's creations. Well they did it so therefore you see this behavior.

and what are they doing today?? Scientifically engineered seed, animals for diet, and now you have where "straight" is being trampled on and God's law to an extent "political disaster". I don't like straddling the fence for none of it. These individuals have not been treated as they should have been in life from the beginning one way or the other and thankful for those that can overcome it and horrifying for those that can't.

We all have different patterns of sin to overcome but this pattern is from the reasons given in SP.

God gave the choice of gender and not man to decide what gender he was born afterward.  It's what happens to the child after its born according to SP. and that is a really heartfelt sorry for those who have lived it and given that special trial. God knows their trials.

Why do the Jews know this and present it on their tv health programs and we had this info since the 1800's. Their stance is the same as EGW.

[Snoopy]

It's a sickness Johann. It's happened too many times in our SDA institutions. At 3abn, the people who knew of Tommy's behavior were afraid to speak up because they had already witnessed how Danny Shelton sacked Jean Fiscallini and then did everything possible to trash his reputation even after he was gone. That's what cult leaders do to people who stand up and expose them for the criminals that they are.

That is exactly what happened to David Dennis at the hand of the brethren at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists after they sacked him.  Is this a trend in Adventism?  It appears that there is a great deal of similarity between the functioning of the leadership of the GC and of 3ABN.

[horsethief]

Snoopy, I don't know if I could completely agree with you on this one. I know of people hgh up in the SDA church that do not act this way and who strongly recommend their colleagues not to let these type of behaviors slide, even if it's detrimental to the SDA church. The sickness I speak of is the ignoring of the behavior and the complaints that surround it, then when something really bad happens, the denial of the complaints and the inevitable cover up that follows.

[Snoopy]

Snoopy, I don't know if I could completely agree with you on this one. I know of people hgh up in the SDA church that do not act this way and who strongly recommend their colleagues not to let these type of behaviors slide, even if it's detrimental to the SDA church. The sickness I speak of is the ignoring of the behavior and the complaints that surround it, then when something really bad happens, the denial of the complaints and the inevitable cover up that follows.

It's OK to disagree with me, horsethief!  I still like you!  But I'm curious - do you know the story of David Dennis?

And just to clarify, I shouldn't have made such a broad generalization - I know you are right that there are many very upstanding folks in the SDA church administration.  But my personal experience and opinion is that there are some striking simiilarities between the operation of the GC (as its own legal entity, NOT as the "world church") and 3ABN.

[youngwarrior]

That is exactly what happened to David Dennis at the hand of the brethren at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists after they sacked him.  Is this a trend in Adventism?  It appears that there is a great deal of similarity between the functioning of the leadership of the GC and of 3ABN.

It no more a trend in Adventism than anywhere else.  It is the nature of fallen, unregenerate human beings to excuse sin in themselves and those they are close to.

[Snoopy]

That is exactly what happened to David Dennis at the hand of the brethren at the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists after they sacked him.  Is this a trend in Adventism?  It appears that there is a great deal of similarity between the functioning of the leadership of the GC and of 3ABN.

It no more a trend in Adventism than anywhere else.  It is the nature of fallen, unregenerate human beings to excuse sin in themselves and those they are close to.

Very good point.  I agree.

[horsethief]

I'm not aware of the David Dennis situation. Yet 3abn was fully aware of Tommy's sexual appetite prior to him becoming production manager and prior to his 'KID'S TIME' appearances.

Homosexuality is sin. There is no way to get around that. Being sexually active within that world will shorten a person's life.

[Gregory]

Tinka:  I said: 

Gender preference is not a choice.  There is no evidence that people can chose their gender preference.

Not once did I say that people were born homosexual.

There is a major difference between saying that gender prefernce is not a choice and in saying that people are born homosexual.

Science clearly supports the idea that gender preference is not a choice.

Most people would equate a statement that a person was born with an X condition as a statement that the X condition was genetic.

The evidence from science that homosexuality is genetic is NOT conclusive.  From that standpoint, I would not be able at this point in time to say that homosexuality is genetic.

If you have studied Embryology you know that animals and humans are born with conditions that are not genetic.  There is a school of thought that suggests that homosexuality is sometimes related to such issues.  But, that is not conclusive.

if you have studied psychology you know that some of what people become is due to post-natal development.  There is a school of thought that attributes some homosexuality to such.  But that is not conclusive.

Personally, I subscribe to a probable multi-factorial eitology of homosexuality.  I say that in part due to the time I once spent working closely with homosexuals.  By the way, I joined each week a group of HIV infected patients and shared a meal with them.  The majority were homosexual adult males.  Some were not.   Some were SDA.  Some were celebate.  Some were female and we had a few children.

When I was working with homosexuals we had several hundred people we were clinically treating.  IT became very cler to me that:  1) There could not be one common etiology for their homosexuality.  2) Their gender preference was NOT their choice.  It was given to them by forces/circumstances outside of their control.

The position of the SDA church, whether you agree or not, is that homosexuality is not a sin in itself.  Rather, it is behavior that is a sin.

[Gregory]

If we are going to discuss homosexuality we need to understand how the term is defined.  Most definations ofhomosexuality fall into two catagories:
1)  Gender preference
2) The Commission of homosexual acts--IOW behavior.

As you may guess, I accept the first.

In any case, there are significant issues the arise from the defination that one accepts.

Those who accept the 2nd are able to claim cures for homosexuality.  Those who accept the 1st typically reject cures as being typical.

Those who accept the 2nd have to deal with naming a person as a homosexual who at one point in their life engaged in some homosexual behavior and then left that to behave solely in a heterosexual manner.  I personally tink it is wroing to label a person as homosexual who has experienced an isolated instance of homosexual behavior.   There are many who fit into this catagory.

Do I deny the power of God to change a person?  No!  But, I will suggest that God more often works to help a person to control their behavior than God works to change their gender preference.  The life of the Christian church is filled with people who have found that their gender preference did not change.

But such is not limited to sexuality.  I have a friend who has been free of tobacco use.  Yet, he is the first to tell me that there is not a day that passes without him feeling the desire for the tobacco that he once used.

[Bob Pickle]

Gregory,

Colorado does not permit discrimination over sexual orientation, at least in regards to some things.

Would Colorado get bent out of shape if someone discriminated over sexual behavior?

This is a question I've had for many years.

[Gregory]

Bob:  Yes.  My assumption is that the behavior is legal and that no exception in the statute applies.

[Bob Pickle]

Perhaps you misunderstood my question. It's a take off of the distinction you were making between homosexual attraction and homosexual behavior.

As far as I know, the various statements certain places put out state that they do not discriminate against sexual orientation, which would have to do with attraction, not necessarily behavior. I've never seen a statement which says that they don't discriminate on the basis of sexual behavior.

So, if someone discriminated on the basis of behavior, but not on the basis of orientation, would they get in trouble with the state of Colorado? If so, then is not the use of the word "orientation" instead of "behavior" a sham, since then it would be the behavior that society is being forced to accept, not the attraction?

[tinka]

Gregory sorry for the misunderstanding and no I have no education in the topic and in most areas that I don't- I am completely satisfied with the comments of EGW and the causes. But.. I do respect medical people and their help for those with the issues of variety.

But the experience I saw was this.
A mother took complete  possession of just one son. No other siblings. He was absolutely a beautiful baby boy. But the baby was on her schedule and cried and waited for her timing. They lived with my folks. My mother was never allowed to have relationship with her grandchild as the mother was constantly at his side of control and even the father had no say or attachment because of total control of mother. The child was disciplined strangely and at times seemed sadistically. He would go to my mother for her to pick him up in screaming times but she was not allowed to give attention. My folks soon moved away.

He never had a piece of candy, any sugar content of anything, never a drop of milk was raised on everything soy bean, tofu etc. He was never allowed to be free to play with cousins, boys or girls without supervision at his side and for only minutes until time to go. At Birthdays, he watched the rest have a little cake and ice cream and never allowed a morsel. As he grew we heard tales of him doing what they felt was sadistic things to his parents. for no reason coming up behind them and hitting them hard with something. Hmmm, now how could that happen. also he later told a cousin that he was allowed to see his parents in bed when he was about 5 was talking he talking about it.

He then went to church school but not without his mother. She was room helper everyday until eighth grade. No he would not be allowed to go to academy. Public high school was the next option. That was throwing him into oblivion of not knowing anything of being free with other students. By then the difference was being noticed as his mother always had him do things that women do and men don't. and you know the rest of the story as I wrote but this is heart wrenching. I was always extra special loving  to him as his pattern of trial was forced on him but nothing I could do or the rest of family. and I truly believe that all sorts of things coming from any directions in these manners is what a lot have to deal with from birth and many should never have had children with parental fanatical ways. Parents are no longer together after son got sick Now I trust Jesus will deal with this in ways of only He can do and I cannot begin to understand. Just what happened with vividness. and now you can understand how I feel about an adult that takes liberties with a child. even if their so called gender they choose  to be, they must know not to put this on to someone else. but some do.

The only way of healing is to completely give self to God in what ever way they are left in by competent christian medical help if they prefer. But again the "born into" bodily definitely is the same as any other defect caused as other defects are caused. Did the diet help to do this.. yes I believe it did and did the writing of EGW come into play here, yes I believe it did.  The Jews right out on their programs of health state that "eating so much soy makes little girls out of your boy". Then on top of that they Scientifically work the seed. So therefore I do not eat the manufactured vege meat but create my own. Yes this is a very cruel world for many and I hope many can know that there is better one coming.