Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => Womens Ordination & Related Issues => Topic started by: Johann on September 04, 2012, 01:01:30 AM
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/16/african-union-first-female-leader?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038
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African Union as in a political leadership position, not a church leadership position.
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This would have been unheard of just a few years ago, that an African woman is chosen as a political president How does that influence the thinking of people, including Seventh-da Adventists?
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This would have been unheard of just a few years ago, that an African woman is chosen as a political president How does that influence the thinking of people, including Seventh-da Adventists?
It depends on whether we set our standards based on what the world thinks, or based on what God thinks.
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This would have been unheard of just a few years ago, that an African woman is chosen as a political president How does that influence the thinking of people, including Seventh-da Adventists?
It depends on whether we set our standards based on what the world thinks, or based on what God thinks.
Therein lies a big problem. People with personal issues claim their hang-ups as divine mandate, and as we all know, anyone can prove anything from scripture. The SDA church, was founded by a woman. That woman, held credentials as an ordained pastor until her death, as did various other women. After her death, progressives crushed what was a founding principle of the SDA church, and lied in calling their cause conservative. The PUC, the CUC, and many other areas hold to the conservative view that EGW and the early SDA church was right, where some are trying to deny it, trying to deny the founder of our church the position she held. Who would have thought the time would come when the supposed liberal wing if the church would be having to defend Ellen White and her credentials against what would be revealed as the false conservatives trying to undermine her and demean what was bestowed on her.
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This would have been unheard of just a few years ago, that an African woman is chosen as a political president How does that influence the thinking of people, including Seventh-da Adventists?
It depends on whether we set our standards based on what the world thinks, or based on what God thinks.
Therein lies a big problem. People with personal issues claim their hang-ups as divine mandate, and as we all know, anyone can prove anything from scripture. The SDA church, was founded by a woman. That woman, held credentials as an ordained pastor until her death, as did various other women. After her death, progressives crushed what was a founding principle of the SDA church, and lied in calling their cause conservative. The PUC, the CUC, and many other areas hold to the conservative view that EGW and the early SDA church was right, where some are trying to deny it, trying to deny the founder of our church the position she held. Who would have thought the time would come when the supposed liberal wing if the church would be having to defend Ellen White and her credentials against what would be revealed as the false conservatives trying to undermine her and demean what was bestowed on her.
Ellen White founded the SDA Church? Well, that's not true.
She was an ordained pastor? Also not true.
Liberals defending Ellen White? My, my, my....
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1) Ellen White is listed in many SDA publicaitons as one of the "co-founders" of the SDA Church. There was no single founder of the SDA Church.
2) EGW ordained: There was no ceremony, either public or private, in which hands were laid upon her. She was given the credentials of an ordained minister.
3) Liberals defending EGW: Maybe (?) you do not have a clear understanding of what makes a liberal?
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1) Ellen White is listed in many SDA publicaitons as one of the "co-founders" of the SDA Church. There was no single founder of the SDA Church.
2) EGW ordained: There was no ceremony, either public or private, in which hands were laid upon her. She was given the credentials of an ordained minister.
3) Liberals defending EGW: Maybe (?) you do not have a clear understanding of what makes a liberal?
Regarding #2, it is my understanding that they didn't have anything for a Messenger of God, therefore, they used that one in its place.
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1) Ellen White is listed in many SDA publicaitons as one of the "co-founders" of the SDA Church. There was no single founder of the SDA Church.
2) EGW ordained: There was no ceremony, either public or private, in which hands were laid upon her. She was given the credentials of an ordained minister.
3) Liberals defending EGW: Maybe (?) you do not have a clear understanding of what makes a liberal?
Regarding #2, it is my understanding that they didn't have anything for a Messenger of God, therefore, they used that one in its place.
Perhaps not impossible, but is there any documentation to substantiate that?
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Regarding #2, it is my understanding that they didn't have anything for a Messenger of God, therefore, they used that one in its place.
DAryl, there is a pile of SDA Mythology that has built-up to attempt to explain away why EGW was given teh crenentials of a SDA minister. There isnotsubstantion of any of it and much of it does nto make sense.
1) Take the response above, nothing else to give her. If that had been the issue the GC could have developed a new credential to give her. They could have called it anyting--Recognized Messenger of the Lord, for example. after all, every credential that had been issued at that time came into place because a decision was made to do it.
2) Another myth: The did this because thay had to do it i order to pay her what they wanted to pay her. Nonsence. They could have established a seperate salery schedule for her, called it whatever they wanted, and paid her the same as they paid her with the credential that they gave her.
You get my point? Just myth, not based upon fact, not substantiated and often not rational.
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Isn't there a way that it can be verified as fact or as a myth?
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Common sense & a failure of the records to support such.
When there is a total lack of documentation, one must conclude that it is a myth.
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Common sense & a failure of the records to support such.
When there is a total lack of documentation, one must conclude that it is a myth.
There must be records, as in minutes, to document something. Credentials of whatever sort are not issued without any kind of a record.
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Common sense & a failure of the records to support such.
When there is a total lack of documentation, one must conclude that it is a myth.
A myth?
You're funny, Gregory.
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Iam using the word "myth" is the sense of sociology. In that context, myths have value and can be true.
In that context myths are not attributed as being either true or false.
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I note that Johann is now a "guest!"
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I always understood a myth to be something like fiction.
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I always understood a myth to be something like fiction.
That is the common understanding.
In sociology the word "myth" does not imply either truth of fiction. Rather it references something that is of value to that culture which may be either true or false. Then there are those who believe that they contain both fiction and truth. So, yes, that myth can be fiction. But, it can also be true. Or, it can contain a mixture of truth and error.
A leading example of such that exists in most societies are the "creation myths." Those are generally of major value in their cultures. Some people accept them as true and some as false. But, in calling they a creation myth, there is no implication of either fiction or oftruth.
In SDA Culture, those who oppose ordination for women may feel a need to explain why EGW was given the credentials of an ordained minister, for years. The records are clear. She was given these credentials for years. But, there is no clear documentation as to why, just as there is generally no clear documentation as to why anybody was given such documentation.
So, people have come up with stories (myths) that have taken on a life of thier own as to why she was given such credentials. One such myth is that people wanted to pay her the same as an ordained minister (probably true) and there was no way to do that other than to give her the credentials of an ordained minsiter (probably false).
That myth defies common sense in the later part. The church could have taken a vote to establish a seperate catagory of pay for EGW which was equal to that of an ordained minister.
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Credentials of whatever sort are not issued without any kind of a record.
Yes, some kind of record.
And the records support, today, that a local conference recommended/ and/or granted credentials. YOu do not find records that say: Credentials were granted to X because he baptized 21 peopole and exceeded his Ingathering goal by 10% during the past year.
Records are sparse for the early days of ourdenomination. It was not thought important to have such. The Lord was comming and historical paperwork was not needed. So, we simply have records that credentials were granted and even those are likely incomplete.
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When someone uses the word "myth," it implies to most readers that the story isn't really true.
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When someone uses the word "myth," it implies to most readers that the story isn't really true.
Which is why I feel we shouldn't use words with such a common meaning. I am sure there must be better words out there that can be used instead of the word "myth".
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In any case, it is no myth that Ellen White was a fully credentialed and ordained pastor recognized as such by the SDA denomination. I have copies of 3 of her ordination certificates, and they are not myths.
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I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.
Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?
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I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.
Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?
Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?
In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.
If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.
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I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.
Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?
Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?
In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.
If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.
I like your reasonng, Battle Creek.
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I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.
Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?
Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?
In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.
If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.
In our church, we often refer to one another as brother and sister because we all belong to the redeemed family of God. Paul and others called fellow believers "brothers" but they weren't all pastors. We should stick with the Bible usages.
Question: When was she first referred to as Sister White?
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I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.
Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?
Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?
In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.
If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.
In our church, we often refer to one another as brother and sister because we all belong to the redeemed family of God. Paul and others called fellow believers "brothers" but they weren't all pastors. We should stick with the Bible usages.
Question: When was she first referred to as Sister White?
So good to know that you want to stick with Bible usage. Stick to that and we should come to a reasonable conclusion.
"When was she first referred to as Sister White?" Why do you ask? What difference would that make?
In your preparation for becoming a SDA minister you must have made a thorough study of Spiritual Gifts. Scattered through those volumes you will find some clues, but I have no recollection of a statement anywhere which states: This is the first time Ellen White was called Sister White.
Also as a SDA minister you will have a keen interest in the development of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. You will recall that Otis Nichols was one of the first persons who accepted the preaching of Joseph Bates on the Sabbath question. Ellen spent considerable time in the Nichols home, and he witnessed some of her visions.
From your basic training to become a minister you will also recall that in the vaults of the E G White Estate is a handwritten manuscript by Otis where he outlines the history and Ellen's travels as a preacher in connection with her first visions. Consistently through his account he refers to Sister White and Brother White, at times abbreviated as Sr. and Bro. It is remarkable that even when he gives an account of her visions while she was still this young girl, Ellen Gould Harmon, he would give her present name as Sister White. When Otis gives this account around 1859, James White was definitely regarded as a, if not the leading minister of our church, yet he calls him nothing but Brother in this manuscript. This is also what we find in the minutes of the GC sessions of that time.
This seems to be the language used within the church. That did not prevent some of them from using the title of Elder when writing a book, etc.
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I don't remember where she was ever referred to by anybody as Pastor Ellen G. White, or Elder Ellen G. White.
Can you find any of our early church writings where she is referred under either or both of those titles?
Can you find any record of any minister in the lifetime of Ellen White referred to as Pastor?
In some of the early church writings you find Elder James White. Later on he was mostly referred to as Brother White, as well as others were referred to as Brother Uriah Smith, Brother J. N. Andrews, etc. Just look through the minutes of the General Conference Sessions from the beginning. By 1866 they were all Brethren and no Elders.
If a male ordained minister was called Brother, would it not be natural that a female ordained minister be called Sister? That was the title they gave Sister Ellen G. White.
In our church, we often refer to one another as brother and sister because we all belong to the redeemed family of God. Paul and others called fellow believers "brothers" but they weren't all pastors. We should stick with the Bible usages.
Question: When was she first referred to as Sister White?
So good to know that you want to stick with Bible usage. Stick to that and we should come to a reasonable conclusion.
"When was she first referred to as Sister White?" Why do you ask? What difference would that make?
Well, you say she was referred to as Sister because she was ordained as a minister of the gospel, no? Was she called Sister before this "ordination" took place that you refer to?
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The original question by Daryl Fawset was if Ellen White was ever called Elder or Pastor. The answer to that is NO, but neither were those titles used within the church for several years for ordained ministers. Therefore the missing title of Elder or Pastor for Ellen White is no proof of the status of Ellen White. We only have the cards which show that she had the status as an ordained minister.
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You mean they still were not using the words pastor and elder to identify our ministers even as late as the early 1900s?
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Ellen White used the word "pastor" 120 times in her writings, therefore, it was a well known word back then.
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While looking at the word "pastor" I stumbled across this quote:
Women to Be Qualified to Occupy Any Position.--The Lord designs that the school [Avondale] should also be a place where a training may be gained in women's work--cooking, housework, dressmaking, bookkeeping, correct reading, and pronunciation. They are to be qualified to take any post that may be offered--superintendents, Sabbath school teachers, Bible workers. They must be prepared to teach day schools for children.--Ev 475 (1898). {DG 86.3}
She lists a lot of positions, however, she doesn't list pastors or elders amongst that list, which I find interesting that she left those out of her list of positions in the above quote.
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Was that an exclusive list? Then why did she say: ". . . take any post that may be offered. . . ."
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So the Lord indicated to Ellen White that "women's work" education should be provided for...interesting...
If the Lord designed for women and men to be equals in the work they were to do, why was this designated as "women's work"?
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Ellen White used the word "pastor" 120 times in her writings, therefore, it was a well known word back then.
Yes, she used the word "pastor", but I have only seen her using that word as a title for an Adventist minister for one person. That was in Australia and nowhere else. She also wrote: “regarding the testimonies, nothing is ignored; nothing is cast aside; but time and place must be considered” (1 SM 57).
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Yes, interesting. Hmmmm.....
So the Lord indicated to Ellen White that "women's work" education should be provided for...interesting...
If the Lord designed for women and men to be equals in the work they were to do, why was this designated as "women's work"?