Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: ex3abnemployee on February 03, 2009, 03:04:36 PM
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I recently heard a telephone message left for Pastor Glenn Dryden by Danny Shelton in 2003. Danny was referring to the letter that Dryden sent out saying that Tommy had molested as least 6 boys. Danny said twice that "in this case" the statute of limitations had run out.
That got me to thinking: What does he mean by "in this case"? Is he admitting that there was, in fact, an incident where Tommy broke the law? What "case" could he be talking about? It appears to have been something illegal, because he mentioned the statute of limitations.
Another question comes to mind: If the letter was about Tommy, why is Danny making the phone call? Hmmm...
I wonder if any light could be shed on this.
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I would like to point out that we have yet another smoking gun here.
http://www.save-3abn.com/glenn-dryden-to-walt-thompson-may-2003.htm (http://www.save-3abn.com/glenn-dryden-to-walt-thompson-may-2003.htm)
http://www.save-3abn.com/mike-riva-to-glenn-dryden-june-2003.htm (http://www.save-3abn.com/mike-riva-to-glenn-dryden-june-2003.htm)
Notice that Dryden's correspondence is in two parts: His letter, and the action items.
Notice that Dryden's letter doesn't mention anything about statute of limitations or Senate Bill 1035. Notice that the action items mention those things.
Now notice that since Riva's letter mentions statute of limitations and Senate Bill 1035, it proves that Riva had the action items, not just Dryden's letter. Thus in 2003 Riva knew or should have known that Tommy was being asked in those action items to apologize for deceit and inappropriate behavior to the Community Church of God in Dunn Loring, where he pastored from about 1995 to about 2000.
Thus Riva knew or should have known that there probably were incidents for which the statute of limitations had not run out yet.
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The same logic applies to the recordings Duane says he listened to.
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I think it is quite telling that Junebug, anyman, and Ian have spent so much effort in another thread talking about a paternity test and have made no comments in this thread, as well as no comments in the thread about Brenda Walsh and Delta Airlines.
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Whether or not this comment stirred up some action, there are now replies in the Brenda/Delta thread.
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I'll copy this post from elsewhere.
Per review of recent court filings and Bob's transcription of voicemail messages left by Dan Shelton for Pastor Dryden, it looks to me like Dan Shelton was clearly aware of the recent allegations against Tommy.
The following excerpt is copied directly from http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-171.pdf:
10. Dryden gave me recordings of two phone messages left by Danny Shelton on the Ezra Church of God’s answering machine on May 23, 2003, at 10:25 am and 11:50 am. These recordings are found in the MP3 file in the folder on Ex. H labeled in part Folder 1.
11. I have accurately transcribed the recording of the 10:25 am message as follows:
Hi Glenn, this is Danny Shelton. Uh, I was wanting to talking to you for a few minutes, if I could. I’m leaving though in about an hour. It’s 10:25 I think I’m, A.M. on Friday. I’m leaving in about an hour for Canada, uh, for tomorrow and tomorrow night, but I’ll be back, uh, over the weekend.
I want to talk to you a little bit about a letter that I found that, that didn’t have a signature but uh, anyway, they said you put it together.
And I wanted to talk to you about this bill that you’re saying been introduced that the governor’s going to sign. I’ve done homework on it. I’ve put an attorney to see about the statute of limitations, and basically [clears throat] what happens if the statutes run out it does not go back [clears throat] any, any [clears throat] excuse me, any person that’s over 28 years of age, uh, cannot the statute of limitations run out. It will not go back. If the statutes of limitations, is what I want to tell you, has run out already, which it has in this case, you can’t go back.
This is only if somebody, say it’s been 8 years, uh, since it of been happened, uh, then that will be stretched to 20 years. But if the 10 years is already passed, in this case which it has, uh, then that statute left, the new bill does not affect that.
I’ve got this through an attorney who went through not only the state’s attorney that didn’t know but the, the uh appellate courts and all the way to the state level. And I thought you should know that because for you to be putting out some of these letters that you’re putting out, you might want to be careful what, what you’re putting out or what you’re saying, and that you don’t [clears throat] bring reproach, uh, against yourself, ah, for not giving factual information. But anyway, you want to call me you can call me at, uh, ***-****. Thanks.
12. I have accurately transcribed the recording of the 11:50 am message as follows:
Hi Glenn. This is, uh, Danny Shelton again. I’m headed off uh, uh, to Canada, but I wanted to give another message.
Someone since I just left my last message brought me a letter that you have written to people in the church, uh, somewhere that you thought Tommy may be going, and you say that he has molested 6, uh, boys, uh, in that church.
And, I think you really need to be careful about that, because you’re setting yourself up for, to be liable actually, because there has been no charges, and that there’s been, there has been no, been, there has been no, uh, charges formally made, there’s never been admitted to, there’s been nothing.
I’ve talked to an attorney about it, and what you really should say is there have been some accusations against him, or allegedly he has done this. But when you set yourself in writing as you did, uhm, I just think for your own sake you need to be careful about that.
Uh, because what you say is very powerful. People look to you as you know, uh, as a pastor. So that’s one of your complaints, uh, about uh Tommy.
So you want to make sure that your own, it seems to me, that you want to make sure that ch[???] safe waters yourself, and that you’re very, very careful of what you say and not to get yourself, ah, in a position that ruins your credibility.
So I’m just saying this, I’m willing to talk to you about it some [???] talk to me. Thanks. Bye.
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I have heard these recordings of Dan's threats. Sad.
Edit note: No, Bob did not include the little smilies in his court filing. Those are a result of the forum software that automatically turns three question marks into the "huh?" smiley!!
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I’ve put an attorney to see about the statute of limitations, and basically [clears throat] what happens if the statutes run out it does not go back [clears throat] any, any [clears throat] excuse me, any person that’s over 28 years of age, uh, cannot the statute of limitations run out. It will not go back. If the statutes of limitations, is what I want to tell you, has run out already, which it has in this case, you can’t go back.
Does it sound to you like Danny is nervous? is that why he was clearing his throat and got his words all scrambled?
It appears to me that Danny was having trouble figuring out how to talk about the statute of limitations regarding something he didn't want to admit happened. But he finally had to talk about it as if it had.
If the statutes of limitations, is what I want to tell you, has run out already, which it has in this case, you can’t go back.
But if the 10 years is already passed, in this case which it has, uh, then that statute left, the new bill does not affect that.
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I’ve got this through an attorney who went through not only the state’s attorney that didn’t know but the, the uh appellate courts and all the way to the state level.
Why would Danny's attorney talk with a state's attorney that didn't know?
Are the state's attorney and the appellate courts not on the state level?
Who paid for this attorney? Did 3ABN pay for him? If so, who authorized this expenditure of 3ABN money for the personal, private legal expenses of an alleged pedophile?
Or did the attorney do it for free?
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I need some help here.
Has Danny admitted above that Tommy molested boys? If so, is Tommy still an alleged pedophile, or is he a pedophile?
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Stan,
Do you think the above messages Danny left on a non-Adventist church's answering machine are something appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to leave?
I find such to be a total embarrassment.
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Stan,
Do you think the above messages Danny left on a non-Adventist church's answering machine are something appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to leave?
I find such to be a total embarrassment.
What do you mean by the statement "a total embarrassment"??? This is absolutely in keeping with the KING OF HYPOCRISY
and we all know about the DIVINE RIGHT OF KINGS!!!
Gee, Bob, does that mean we are insubordinate??? Disloyal??? Treasonous??? Even Blasphemous against his un-holiness???
Why, no wonder the Kings appointed dislike us so much!!! Bring on the lions!!!
Oh, they already did that...apparently they were declawed and had no teeth!!! And that is what you get for a Million bucks??? Wonder if they can get a refund???
With utter disdain:
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I’ve got this through an attorney who went through not only the state’s attorney that didn’t know but the, the uh appellate courts and all the way to the state level.
Why would Danny's attorney talk with a state's attorney that didn't know?
Are the state's attorney and the appellate courts not on the state level?
Who paid for this attorney? Did 3ABN pay for him? If so, who authorized this expenditure of 3ABN money for the personal, private legal expenses of an alleged pedophile?
Or did the attorney do it for free?
Yes, I was wondering that as well - who paid for that attorney??
BTW...thanks, Bob, for copying my post to this thread where I should have put it in the first place.
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May 23, 2003, at 10:25 am
I want to talk to you a little bit about a letter that I found that, that didn’t have a signature but uh, anyway, they said you put it together.
And I wanted to talk to you about this bill that you’re saying been introduced that the governor’s going to sign. I’ve done homework on it. I’ve put an attorney to see about the statute of limitations, and basically [clears throat] ....
May 23, 2003, at 11:50 am
Someone since I just left my last message brought me a letter that you have written to people in the church, uh, somewhere that you thought Tommy may be going, and you say that he has molested 6, uh, boys, uh, in that church.
There was only one letter, not two.
Dryden's letter to Walt Thompson referred to Tommy molesting six boys.
Attached to that letter was the action items that referred to a bill and the statute of limitations. (http://www.save-3abn.com/glenn-dryden-to-walt-thompson-may-2003.htm)
Thus, we now have proof that Danny had the action items. Thus Danny knew Dryden was recommending that Tommy apologize to the church in Dunn Loring, where Tommy pastored from about 1995 to about 2000.
Thus Danny knew the allegations weren't all 30 years old, and thus he knew that when he told Walt Thompson otherwise he was lying.
Thus Danny knowingly put 3ABN and the Illinois Conference at extreme financial risk due to his willful cover up of the child molestation allegations against Tommy Shelton.
Thus, Danny ought to be booted out the door!
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Stan,
Do you think the above messages Danny left on a non-Adventist church's answering machine are something appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to leave?
I find such to be a total embarrassment.
Besides hearing from Stan about his thoughts on this, I would also like to hear from anyman, SAM, and Ian.
Do any of you think the above messages Danny left on a non-Adventist church's answering machine are something appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to leave?
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I recently heard a telephone message left for Pastor Glenn Dryden by Danny Shelton in 2003. Danny was referring to the letter that Dryden sent out saying that Tommy had molested as least 6 boys. Danny said twice that "in this case" the statute of limitations had run out.
That got me to thinking: What does he mean by "in this case"? Is he admitting that there was, in fact, an incident where Tommy broke the law? What "case" could he be talking about? It appears to have been something illegal, because he mentioned the statute of limitations.
Another question comes to mind: If the letter was about Tommy, why is Danny making the phone call? Hmmm...
I wonder if any light could be shed on this.
Maybe you can shed light on it.
I had the impression that he was speaking of you. You have admitted you had a innapropriate relationship with your Pastor at age 19 or 20, one which he, not you broke off, is that correct?
He was of course absolutely wrong, as he was your Pastor, and he was married and the relationship was homosexual in nature.
It is my understanding he tried to apologize to you and you said that he didn't need to, and that he had never hurt you, is this correct?
Do you still feel the same? If not, in regards to yourself, is there something he needs to still do or offer you to make restitution to you?
It is also my understanding that you are a youth Pastor in a baptist church, and it is your claim that the Pastor of the Church of God who made the accusations regarding sexual molestation of "boys" against Tommy Shelton made the same accusations against you and that you claimed you had to threaten him to get him to be quiet about that. At least that is Bob Pickle's claim in emails he attributes to you on his website. Is this true? Why would he accuse you like that?
In reading one of Bob Pickle's latest court filing's from his website he quotes from the Church of God board of trustee meeting held to discuss the allegations Glen Dryden has made concerning Tommy Shelton. The trustees are told in that meeting that they are to regard the allegations of sexual abuse of minors as "hearsay" until or if they receive statements from any so called victims. Are you aware of this?
Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?
Are you aware that those same board minutes record that their Pastor and Glen Dryden reported that Danny Shelton in communications to them hinted that Glen Dryden refrain from posting further allegations of sexual misconduct against Tommy Shelton or the Shelton family (not 3ABN) would bring a suit for defamation of character?
Considering Glen Dryden's same accusations against yourself and your threats in return, can you in your heart really blame him for doing the same thing?
Your answers here would be helpful.
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I had the impression that he was speaking of you.
Are you suggesting that Glenn Dryden's 2003 letter was referring to Duane Clem, who didn't come forward until 2007, four years later? That would be pretty ludicrous.
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Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?
How do you know it's never been reported?
More importantly, what do you think of Danny's messages that he left? Do you think it is appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist to leave such messages?
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I think you need to understand that Glenn Dryden was not the first one to raise concerns.
Brad Dunning says that Tommy propositioned him around 1982 or 1983, and that he immediately reported it to his mother and grandfather. Dryden didn't come along till a number of years later, and the six Dryden referred to included Dunning, as well as Roger Clem, Greg Houseworth, and three others.
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Bob
Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time :)
I would have to do a lot more research before I commented.. but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
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I would have to say that Danny threatening Dryden in order to cover up the child molestation allegations, which put kids at risk, and which put 3ABN and the Illinois Conference at extreme risk, was far, far worse.
Danny had an opportunity to come clean before it really went public. He chose not to. Feel free to ask him why he made the choice that he did.
Walt also had opportunity to do the right thing. He too refused. I can't begin to understand his reprehensible negligence in all of this.
If publicizing Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations helped protect children, and helped protect 3ABN and the Illinois Conference from liability, then it was the right thing to do.
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Bob
... but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
Please clarify. What do you mean by "that"? If "that" is Tommy messing with kids, I find your comparison reprehensible!
Maybe I misunderstood "that". I sure do hope so!
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Bob
Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time :)
I would have to do a lot more research before I commented.. but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
OK, I hardly ever say anything here anymore, but this one...
The pastor who told my mom not to say anything publically about my great-grandfather's molestation of me, had the same attitude. The pastor who wouldn't report his own daughter's molestation because he didn't want his church to "look bad" had the same attitude.
Abuse lives and spreads because of just such attitudes. It lives in the dark. It continues because it is so unthinkable that people don't want to believe it happens, and if it does, don't want to hear about it or have it known. Just put it behind us; I am sure they must be sorry; what will the "world" think; it is none of our business; etc.
And it is very common to hear someone who has done something despicable get very upset that their act has been exposed. They are more angry that it was brought to light than that they actually did it. Which brings into question the depth of their "repentance", in my opinion...
:scratch:
scratsmom--knowing that what she just said made no difference whatsoever, but I feel better... :)
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Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?
How do you know it's never been reported?
I know because I know and have talked to the people involved.
More importantly, what do you think of Danny's messages that he left? Do you think it is appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist to leave such messages?
I am not going to argue with you Mr Pickle, the spirit of prophesy is clear we are not to engage in dialog with the enemy. I will say this much and you may take it or leave it.
I think it is inappropriate for you to keep claiming that Mr Shelton was calling as "the leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church" when he did not and was not. The events and allegations you refer to have nothing to do with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They were, and still are, all within the Church of God.
I think his phone call was entirely appropriate. Danny Shelton called as a concerned family member whos brother was being slandered. He called because when Tommy Shelton tried to call and talk to Glen Dryden about it all, Glen Dryden refused to hear him or discuss it. Dryden just kept making allegations to others. Allegations which he did not prove and which Tommy denied. That is hardly a Christian response, or a way for one Church of God Pastor to treat another Church of God Pastor, much less any christian trying to resolve things.
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I think you need to understand that Glenn Dryden was not the first one to raise concerns.
Brad Dunning says that Tommy propositioned him around 1982 or 1983, and that he immediately reported it to his mother and grandfather. Dryden didn't come along till a number of years later, and the six Dryden referred to included Dunning, as well as Roger Clem, Greg Houseworth, and three others.
Folks,
You need to understand that it was due to Glen Dryden that Mr Pickle became involved, his posts are always citing Dryden. You also need to understand that Mr Pickle is obsessed with this issue and no more inclined to tell you the truth than Glen Dryden is.
What he doesn't tell you is that he is not talking about current events. He is refering to events from 25 years ago. They are called "recent allegatio0ns" by him as Glen Dryden keeps dragging up "old allegations".
Yes Brad Dunning told his mother and Grandfather that story, what Mr Pickle and Glenn Dryden leave out is that they reported it to the police and it was investigated and the boys claims found without merit, no charges were ever filed.
Greg Houseworth, was also that long ago. He is still fairly local, and in Illinois, and contrary to Dryden's assertions and Mr Pickle's repeating of that, he has made no allegations regarding Mr Shelton and made no statements.
The "other three" are not known, nor are the allegations. Both Dryden and Pickle just expect all to take their word they exist, and that Tommy Shelton is a pedophile.
It is very sad that so many have done just that.
What Mr Pickle and Glen Dryden also do not tell you is that the District Attorney in Illinois knows all about their allegations and has nothing of merit to proceed with as Dr Thompson, the chairman of the 3ABN board, found out in his own investigation.
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I would have to say that Danny threatening Dryden in order to cover up the child molestation allegations, which put kids at risk, and which put 3ABN and the Illinois Conference at extreme risk, was far, far worse.
Danny had an opportunity to come clean before it really went public. He chose not to. Feel free to ask him why he made the choice that he did.
Walt also had opportunity to do the right thing. He too refused. I can't begin to understand his reprehensible negligence in all of this.
If publicizing Danny's cover up of the child molestation allegations helped protect children, and helped protect 3ABN and the Illinois Conference from liability, then it was the right thing to do.
Folks,
One more thing.
No children at 3ABN were ever at risk. There are no alleged child victims from 3ABN or within the Seventh-Day Adventist conferences. There are no allegations.
Mr Pickle's claims that his witch hunt is to protect the Illinois conference is hogwash. His claims that Danny was covering up allegations is equally so.
Even if there were proven cases of child molestation due to 3ABN's employment of Tommy Shelton, the Illinois Conference would never be liable. 3ABN is an independant self supporting ministry.
This is something that he and Mr Joy have always been ignorant of when it comes to 3ABN's Status in relation to the General Conference of Seventh Day Adventists.
The GC, and the NAD have a working policy which defines "denominational" and "supporting" ministries. You are one or the other. You can not be considered both. It is that working policy which defines 3ABN as non denominational, and as a supporting ministry of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. It is the NAD "working policy" handbook that if read by those damning 3ABN for declaring what they did in court about their status as non denominational would have enlightened those individuals, and allowed them to understand that they said exactly what the NAD working policy handbook said supporting ministries are to say in legal issues.
Mr Pickle and Mr Joy have in fact due to being factually challenged and never understanding or refusing to understand how the GC defines ministry status, lied and falsely accused 3ABN regarding this issue over and over, and have led many of you to.
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I know because I know and have talked to the people involved.
So you are saying that you know for a fact that nothing was reported in Virginia?
More importantly, what do you think of Danny's messages that he left? Do you think it is appropriate for a leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist to leave such messages?
I am not going to argue with you Mr Pickle, the spirit of prophesy is clear we are not to engage in dialog with the enemy.
I never said anything about arguing. I asked you a simple question.
I think it is inappropriate for you to keep claiming that Mr Shelton was calling as "the leader of a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church" when he did not and was not.
Please don't misquote me. I never said he called "as" such a leader. We was such a leader, and he called, but I never said he called "as" such a leader.
The events and allegations you refer to have nothing to do with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They were, and still are, all within the Church of God.
You are clearly wrong. Danny was the leader of a Seventh-day Adventist supporting ministry, and he lied and threatened to cover up the child molestation allegations against Tommy. Danny's actions were within the Adventist Church, not the Church of God.
And due to the close ties between 3ABN and the Illinois Conference, Danny's reprehensible, gross negligence put the Illinois Conference at risk, not to mention kids at risk.
I think his phone call was entirely appropriate.
Then you are a sick individual. Do you honestly think that there was nothing wrong with Danny trying to silence concerns about child molestation?
Danny Shelton called as a concerned family member whos brother was being slandered.
Now I will backtrack a little. Since Danny was calling in response to Dryden's letter to Thompson, Danny gave the appearance of calling Dryden as 3ABN president. Correct? Otherwise, he was mixing personal and business matters.
Moreover, if 3ABN paid Riva to write Riva's nasty, despicable letter, then your making this whole thing merely personal is much more difficult.
He called because when Tommy Shelton tried to call and talk to Glen Dryden about it all, Glen Dryden refused to hear him or discuss it. Dryden just kept making allegations to others. Allegations which he did not prove and which Tommy denied.
You're forgetting the history. Tommy did talk to Roger Clem, and Roger told him he wanted Tommy to register as a sex offender. But Tommy said that wasn't going to happen because he thought he had already done whatever he needed to.
I have personally spoken with 7 of Tommy's alleged victims, and the mother of an 8th.
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I had the impression that he was speaking of you.
Are you suggesting that Glenn Dryden's 2003 letter was referring to Duane Clem, who didn't come forward until 2007, four years later? That would be pretty ludicrous.
Yes folks that is ludicrous. Mr Clem's questions were about Danny Shelton's phone call and who he was talking about, not Robert Pickle's twisted spin.
The events I was asking Mr Clem about were almost 25 yrs ago. Tommy did not need a Robert Pickle or a Glen Dryden to try and make things right, he had the Lord. He has long since confessed, repented, apologized, tried to make restitution and undergone counseling. His friends and family (including Danny) know this, they know about Mr Clem, and more importantly God does and He knows the truth of this situation.
I sincerely believe Tommy Shelton was wrong, and I was sincere in asking Mr Clem what he personally needs from Tommy today in order to be able to heal and move on.
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What he doesn't tell you is that he is not talking about current events. He is refering to events from 25 years ago.
Not entirely. The allegations from Dunn Loring are regarding events that happened between about 1995 and 2000, and thus were as recent as 3 years old when Danny left his despicable phone messages.
Yes Brad Dunning told his mother and Grandfather that story, what Mr Pickle and Glenn Dryden leave out is that they reported it to the police and it was investigated and the boys claims found without merit, no charges were ever filed.
How do you know that the allegations were found without merit? How do you know? Did Danny pull any strings?
Greg Houseworth, was also that long ago. He is still fairly local, and in Illinois, and contrary to Dryden's assertions and Mr Pickle's repeating of that, he has made no allegations regarding Mr Shelton and made no statements.
His mother did.
The "other three" are not known, nor are the allegations.
Of course they're known. Anyone involved knows who they are. It's no secret, and never has been.
What Mr Pickle and Glen Dryden also do not tell you is that the District Attorney in Illinois knows all about their allegations and has nothing of merit to proceed with as Dr Thompson, the chairman of the 3ABN board, found out in his own investigation.
How do you know he found nothing of merit? Because the statute of limitations had run out? Did Danny pull any strings?
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He has long since confessed, repented, apologized, tried to make restitution and undergone counseling.
For what? When?
There are a number of men out there who think Tommy hasn't apologized to them or sought to make any restitution.
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Folks,
One more thing.
No children at 3ABN were ever at risk. There are no alleged child victims from 3ABN or within the Seventh-Day Adventist conferences. There are no allegations.
Call up Risk Management and see if they will agree. Of course they won't.
Allow an alleged pedophile to work with children, and if no one makes any allegations, then no child is at risk? Not a chance.
Mr Pickle's claims that his witch hunt is to protect the Illinois conference is hogwash.
Read the history. That's where it all started.
But I suppose your efforts to whitewash Danny's reprehensible actions means that your user name is a lie. That's not the way to defend 3ABN.
His claims that Danny was covering up allegations is equally so.
How so?
Even if there were proven cases of child molestation due to 3ABN's employment of Tommy Shelton, the Illinois Conference would never be liable. 3ABN is an independant self supporting ministry.
With a church school, and, at the time, a conference academy campus on 3ABN's campus.
Plus, since the IL Conf. president sits on the 3ABN Board, and since Mollie Steenson sits on the conference committee, it would be difficult for the conference to prove that it had no way of knowing that there was an alleged pedophile on 3ABN's premises. So if Tommy molested a student from one of those schools and that case went to court, the conference would be in a very tough spot.
It is the NAD "working policy" handbook that if read by those damning 3ABN for declaring what they did in court about their status as non denominational would have enlightened those individuals, and allowed them to understand that they said exactly what the NAD working policy handbook said supporting ministries are to say in legal issues.
I think a lot of the problem is that you haven't read enough on all of this. "Non-denominational" in common usage does not refer to supporting ministries of the Adventist Church, and I doubt you can produce a NAD policy that mandates the usage of this term.
Further, 3ABN said in court that it preaches a non-denominational message, which is a lie.
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Folks,
Pickle is blinded by his need to condemn find fault and vilify. He has lost all sense of reason and logic here.
One example.
He wants to know if Danny pulled strings with the police and the local DA in Illinois almost 25 years ago in order to cause them to find the allegations without merit?
How would he have done so? Mr Pickle is grasping at straws.Who was Danny 25 years ago? No one. Just a local country boy and carpenter.
I will leave Mr Pickle to continue his stubborn and unreasonable arguments and spew his venom, and Mr Joy to bluster and issue his dire threats, to the pitiful few supporters they have left here.
Most have long since left the building realizing this is not the work God calls any to do.
Most can see that allegations and claims are repetative but the proof is never provided.
So, I too am wiping my feet as peals are just trampled by swine and dogs just turn and rend and so it will always be.
Far too much has been trampled upon and far too many torn apart and thrown under the bus as Mr Pickle and Mr Joy pursue their course. I don't see them stopping or repenting or even pausing for one moment to think.
It's a crying shame.
We are called to spread the good news to a dying world, not to devour and destroy our brethren within the church.
I would appreciate having an Administrator remove my membership here please. This place is pure evil to me and I regret coming here.
Good-bye
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Folks,
Pickle is blinded by his need to condemn find fault and vilify. He has lost all sense of reason and logic here.
One example.
He wants to know if Danny pulled strings with the police and the local DA in Illinois almost 25 years ago in order to cause them to find the allegations without merit?
How would he have done so? Mr Pickle is grasping at straws.Who was Danny 25 years ago? No one. Just a local country boy and carpenter.
I will leave Mr Pickle to continue his stubborn and unreasonable arguments and spew his venom, and Mr Joy to bluster and issue his dire threats, to the pitiful few supporters they have left here.
Most have long since left the building realizing this is not the work God calls any to do.
Most can see that allegations and claims are repetative but the proof is never provided.
So, I too am wiping my feet as peals are just trampled by swine and dogs just turn and rend and so it will always be.
Far too much has been trampled upon and far too many torn apart and thrown under the bus as Mr Pickle and Mr Joy pursue their course. I don't see them stopping or repenting or even pausing for one moment to think.
It's a crying shame.
We are called to spread the good news to a dying world, not to devour and destroy our brethren within the church.
I would appreciate having an Administrator remove my membership here please. This place is pure evil to me and I regret coming here.
Good-bye
No one forces you to be here Ian, er, I mean 3ABN_Defender. You have been a member here just over 30 days and you obviously came in here swinging with both fists so its not like you didn't know anything when you signed up here.
We are not in the business of approving and removing members here at the member's whim. If you don't want to be here then go away and don't let the door hit ya... Hey, I know of a great smut site that you might enjoy...
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Pickle is blinded by his need to condemn find fault and vilify. He has lost all sense of reason and logic here.
One example.
He wants to know if Danny pulled strings with the police and the local DA in Illinois almost 25 years ago in order to cause them to find the allegations without merit?
I ask that because Tommy's alleged victims have asked that. I distinctly remember one of them thinking that Danny had pulled strings.
How would he have done so?
I'd like to know that too.
Most can see that allegations and claims are repetative but the proof is never provided.
The proof that Danny had the action items, and thus knew that there were recent allegations, and that Danny believed that incidents with minors had actually occurred, has been provided.
We are called to spread the good news to a dying world, not to devour and destroy our brethren within the church.
So was Danny spreading the good news to a dying world when he threatened Glenn Dryden in order to silence his concerns about child molestation, or when he lied to Walt Thompson about the allegations being 30 years old when they were as recent as 3 years old at the time?
I would appreciate having an Administrator remove my membership here please. This place is pure evil to me and I regret coming here.
It is evil to protest against the cover up of child molestation allegations?
You really should have called yourself Danny_Defender, not 3ABN_Defender. You're defending Danny to 3ABN's detriment.
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Maybe you can shed light on it.
I had the impression that he was speaking of you. You have admitted you had a innapropriate relationship with your Pastor at age 19 or 20, one which he, not you broke off, is that correct?
He was of course absolutely wrong, as he was your Pastor, and he was married and the relationship was homosexual in nature.
It is my understanding he tried to apologize to you and you said that he didn't need to, and that he had never hurt you, is this correct?
Do you still feel the same? If not, in regards to yourself, is there something he needs to still do or offer you to make restitution to you?
It is also my understanding that you are a youth Pastor in a baptist church, and it is your claim that the Pastor of the Church of God who made the accusations regarding sexual molestation of "boys" against Tommy Shelton made the same accusations against you and that you claimed you had to threaten him to get him to be quiet about that. At least that is Bob Pickle's claim in emails he attributes to you on his website. Is this true? Why would he accuse you like that?
In reading one of Bob Pickle's latest court filing's from his website he quotes from the Church of God board of trustee meeting held to discuss the allegations Glen Dryden has made concerning Tommy Shelton. The trustees are told in that meeting that they are to regard the allegations of sexual abuse of minors as "hearsay" until or if they receive statements from any so called victims. Are you aware of this?
Are you also aware that those same board minutes record that they were told by a Lawyer they retained that even if time has passed and the alleged victim is no longer a minor and the statute of limitations have run out, their county requires that allegations be reported to the Department of Social Services, yet nothing has ever been reported?
Are you aware that those same board minutes record that their Pastor and Glen Dryden reported that Danny Shelton in communications to them hinted that Glen Dryden refrain from posting further allegations of sexual misconduct against Tommy Shelton or the Shelton family (not 3ABN) would bring a suit for defamation of character?
Considering Glen Dryden's same accusations against yourself and your threats in return, can you in your heart really blame him for doing the same thing?
Your answers here would be helpful.
You won't get any answers from me until you're adult enough to sign your name.
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No one forces you to be here Ian, er, I mean 3ABN_Defender. You have been a member here just over 30 days and you obviously came in here swinging with both fists so its not like you didn't know anything when you signed up here.
We are not in the business of approving and removing members here at the member's whim. If you don't want to be here then go away and don't let the door hit ya... Hey, I know of a great smut site that you might enjoy...
Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.
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OK, I hardly ever say anything here anymore, but this one...
Thanks so much for saying it. Your posts are always appreciated.
Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.
That wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, would it.
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Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.
That wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, would it.
How would you know? You can read hearts motives and intent like God?
Duane knows Tommy, as do others. You don't and have never even talked to him. You just blame him for not repenting based on your other accusations which he denies being guilty of.
Wasn't the following (private e-mail) given to you by Duane and isn't it published on your website Pickle?
No one exposed him or forced him to say or write this, but it appears to me like he is taking accountability and placing all the blame on himself and had already apologized and is still apologizing for what he freely confessed and admitted to.
From: "Tommy Shelton"
To: "Duane CLem"
Subject: Re: Hello
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:53:09 -0500
Hi Duane,
I received your e-mail a couple of days ago. I guess you sent it longer ago than that, but I am not home several days a week. It sounds like you are doing what makes you the happiest - being involved in Gospel music.
Duane, I have spent the last several years trying to straighten my life out. As you well know, I had a big problem and should have gotten help years ago or got out of the ministry. To be honest, I really didn't know that I needed help then, but of course I know now. At the time, I knew that I loved God and wanted to help people, but my problem always got in the way.
You will remember that before I went to D.C. I apologized to you and told you that I wanted to make a new start and I have been trying to do that ever since. I've been honest with my wife, whom I almost destroyed with what I did.
I have been honest with her that some inappropriate things happened between you and me - all my fault - and I also told her that you resisted every attempt that I ever made. You and I both know that is true. I know now that I took advantage of how much you cared for me, and I am shocked that you will even speak to me.
Because of what I have done to Carol, you and others, it is not good for me or you to try to rekindle a friendship. Please understand, the last thing I want to do is hurt you more. I've hurt you enough for a life time. I'm sure that you have felt that I have abandoned you, and you are right, that was part of my sickness - run when things got hot. For all of this, Duane, I am so sorry.
If it would help you with some of the hurt you have experienced, Carol and I are both willing to sit and talk to you. Although Carol was very hurt at you for several years for continuing to be friends with me when you knew she didn't want us together, she too has been working on finding healing and has forgiven us both. Naturally she could never be comfortable with me having a one on one friendship with any one from the past, she is willing, however, to do what ever she can to help if you may be still carrying some scars from my relationship with you.
Carol may possibly write to you too, just letting you know that we do care what happens to you and if there is anything we can do together to help, or help make things right, we are willing to do. If you need to ask her anything, we share the same e-mail account.
I do thank you for the many years that you were a friend to me. I loved your mother deeply and cared for all of your family. It is unbelievable that I could make such a mess out of everything. I hope you can someday find it in your heart to forgive me - I am really trying to do right.
Tommy
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Nosir,
I stand by what I said. If the misnamed 3ABN_Defender was really Tommy, then the misnamed 3ABN_Defender's comments don't jive with claims that Tommy has repented. Someone who has repented would not have written what the misnamed 3ABN_Defender wrote.
You have underlined above Tommy's (uncorroborated?) claims of previously apologizing to Duane. Can you please quote where Tommy apologized to Brad Dunning, Roger Clem, Greg Houseworth, and the rest?
In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf) I read, "However, in late 2000 Tommy's own family confronted Tommy regarding concerns related to his adopted son and at least one other minor male child." Know anything about that?
The year 2000 would have only been 3 years before 2003, not 30.
Also, does Tommy in http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf) admit that he molested children?
If Tommy has truly repented, I do not see why he would oppose Roger Clem's request that he register as a sex offender.
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Actually, 3ABN_Defender sounds a lot like Tommy to me.
That wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, would it.
How would you know? You can read hearts motives and intent like God?
Nosir,
I stand by what I said. If the misnamed 3ABN_Defender was really Tommy, then the misnamed 3ABN_Defender's comments don't jive with claims that Tommy has repented. Someone who has repented would not have written what the misnamed 3ABN_Defender wrote.
Nosir, you clearly aren't making sense. You asked me how I would know that 3ABN_Defender being Tommy wouldn't jive with claims of repentance, and I answered that question.
In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf) at the bottom of page 2, Tommy says that at Ezra Church of God, "I caused a lot of pain in many people's lives." If Tommy isn't admitting in these words that he molested children, what is he admitting to?
And remember, in the recordings cited above, Danny spoke of the incidents at Ezra as if they had really occurred, and as if the statute of limitations applied to those incidents. Thus, if Danny admitted that they occurred, I would think Tommy should too. Shouldn't he? Especially if he truly repented?
Edited only to remove inappropriate content from quoted post.
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In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf) I read, "However, in late 2000 Tommy's own family confronted Tommy regarding concerns related to his adopted son and at least one other minor male child." Know anything about that?
The year 2000 would have only been 3 years before 2003, not 30.
Comments anyone?
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Looks like we are going to get some more juicy sanctified gossip, in the name of the Lord of course.
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What do you mean, Stan?
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When I first started coming to the Adventist Church, I heard comments like "did you hear what BLANK said at prayer meeting? the sin she is struggling over" and "so who left who" and "does anyone know what happened between Blank and Blank"... "did you hear what Blank said when he asked Blank to forgive her?" this was at the Calgary Central Church, and I went outside and vomited.
There are people in the Church Employment, who have sinned, and paid their debt to society (at large) who work for the Church in areas that are neither positions of trust nor positions of privilege.
I believe that sexual offenders should be punished after due process of law, and should not be swept under the rug or hidden, allegations need to be examined by capable people, not by internet gossip and sin sniffers.
3ABN is not a Church, and it is not a Seventh-day Adventist institution, it does not have RMS nor can it.
Are you without spot or blemish? Ever any legal convictions?
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In this case we have people who were responsible for doing something who swept it all under the rug. What do we do then?
3ABN had an official conference academy campus on its premises, as well as a church school. RMS (Risk Management Services) would therefore have to get involved if there were incidents involving students from those schools.
The whole thing was covered up so much that the conference pastor told me that he didn't know anything about it. So you have a conference pastor who is responsible for the church school, and Danny left him in the dark.
So what does one do in a situation like this, Stan? Danny swept it all under the rug, perhaps even using 3ABN money to hire attorney(s) to help him do it. And if you add the 3ABN donor money that paid for the lawsuit, that's an awful lot of money Danny got 3ABN to shell out to cover up Tommy's problem.
So what does one do?
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When I first started coming to the Adventist Church, I heard comments like "did you hear what BLANK said at prayer meeting? the sin she is struggling over" and "so who left who" and "does anyone know what happened between Blank and Blank"... "did you hear what Blank said when he asked Blank to forgive her?" this was at the Calgary Central Church, and I went outside and vomited.
There are people in the Church Employment, who have sinned, and paid their debt to society (at large) who work for the Church in areas that are neither positions of trust nor positions of privilege.
I believe that sexual offenders should be punished after due process of law, and should not be swept under the rug or hidden, allegations need to be examined by capable people, not by internet gossip and sin sniffers.
3ABN is not a Church, and it is not a Seventh-day Adventist institution, it does not have RMS nor can it.
Are you without spot or blemish? Ever any legal convictions?
And when I was converted and joined the Seventh-day Adventist Church from a non Adventist upbringing, I was told just before I went away to Academy not to expect to find perfect Christians there. I did find kids who were examining their faith and values as they were living away from the first time. Kids who rebelled (some at least for a time and some permanently) and kids who settled into their parents' religion and made it their own. Folks, they were human!
Later I married and moved with my husband to a little country church. The resident gossip gave me an ear full about the backgrounds of several of the members. The gossip has since gone to her reward and I have become friends with the lovely people she gossiped about. Hers was malicious gossip. What she said didn't make me think less of them but made me guarded around her because if she talked about them, she would talk about me and my family. All these years later I haven't changed my own mind about their spiritual condition or hers. And I haven't repeated what she said. People probably do not even know that I have heard anything about them. They are human and they are making progress on their walk with Christ. Yes, I have even heard some of them do a little gossiping but it is not malicious. They even gossiped about me for awhile but they were mistaken (hopefully they have got it right by now) and I still love them.
If, however a person accused (even if they were accused falsely) of being sexual predator of any kind were to be around my grandchildren or the children of others or around me, I would want to be aware of it. Not only are their legal aspects but I would not even put anyone in a situation where the person could be accused. For the children's sake (in case the accusations are true) or for the sake of the accused (in case they are not true) people need to be aware and monitor the situation. He can't be accused if you know he did not have opportunity. He can't do the act if he did not have the opportunity. And if there is any chance that the person is an offender then for his sake protect him from temptation.
When only one person accuses another person, you may think the accuser is lying or is biased or is gossiping. But when several independently bear witness to personally experiencing the same sexual advances from the same person, there is much more reason to think that they reporting objectively.
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In http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-63-15.pdf) I read, "However, in late 2000 Tommy's own family confronted Tommy regarding concerns related to his adopted son and at least one other minor male child." Know anything about that?
The year 2000 would have only been 3 years before 2003, not 30.
1982-83: Brad Dunning.
By 1985: Maybe four others had gone public.
c. 1986: Duane Clem (came forward in 2008).
1988: Roger Clem (came forward in 2003).
1991: a 3ABN staffer complains. Tommy leaves 3ABN.
1995-2000: Sometime in there we have the alleged incident occurring which is described by the alleged victim on pp. 8-9 of http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-81-11.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-81-11.pdf). This was the new allegation with a minor that Dryden announced at the end of 2006.
1997: Tommy claims at http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf (http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-127-18.pdf) that his family forced him into counseling.
2000: Gailon claims above that Tommy's family again confronted Tommy.
2003: Roger Clem goes public.
2003: Danny threatens Dryden and refers to actual incidents for which the statute of limitations would apply.
This is some of what we know. How much haven't we heard about?
Does Danny have a conscience?
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The letter that is on this thread is just too much. Especially any one denying any part of this admission.
I would suggest that there are many serial abusers that plot and are attracted to their victims. In reality some that are under care of the top most intelligent doctors in this nation you need to Stand back and listen or see what the conclusion if any of these type of people go into remission if they have been the perpetrators or the aggressors. I am not talking about the victims. Why don't you get info from Crime Solvers, high profile detectives, perps that are under rehabilitation supposedly, let them out and they go right back. Many then claim religion and show good behavior and still have the problem.
This letter said enough for me to realize that there is more sickness here that meets the eye. I have read posts on here that ask prayers for his immediate family and I realize anything can be with true admission or repentance and prayer as any thing with God is possible!
But this has gone on too long with family having knowledge of this?????? My question and I try to put myself in that position with thoughts of what in the world would I do or think. First of all a family is attached. What would keep me with or in a situation like that knowingly as a wife with children? and adoption on top of all that ...knowing!! Sorry that would not be me or my bag for raising children.
All these years knowing that your husband had a tendency with children other then you or preference. Yes that is the right word Are you kidding here? Something else is wrong. What good purpose is there in this for your children?? Would I want my children to except this?? Would I want this to be their problem for life long embarrassment? Absolutely not! What kind of acceptance is this on a wife's part?? Except a threesome???
Love??? of what?? His word of "abandonment" in the letter it appears or sounds as reference that he still wants or cares as his ego shows out. He also portrays sort of sympathy but not as he tries to imply now for public to believe. It sounds as if "breaking up is hard to do" sort of thing I just do not understand this way! other then sick!
I still believe LS was led away from corruption even more then she knew of but found too late.
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Posted on: Yesterday at 09:08:14 PM Posted by: tinka Posted on: Yesterday at 09:08:14 PM
... I still believe LS was led away from corruption even more then she knew of, but found too late.
I am in full agreement. God is good, but sometimes we don't understand the whys and wherefore's of some of God's decisions! It is becoming crystal clear that God did it to protect her! Praise God!
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In this case we have people who were responsible for doing something who swept it all under the rug. What do we do then?
3ABN had an official conference academy campus on its premises, as well as a church school. RMS (Risk Management Services) would therefore have to get involved if there were incidents involving students from those schools.
The whole thing was covered up so much that the conference pastor told me that he didn't know anything about it. So you have a conference pastor who is responsible for the church school, and Danny left him in the dark.
So what does one do in a situation like this, Stan? Danny swept it all under the rug, perhaps even using 3ABN money to hire attorney(s) to help him do it. And if you add the 3ABN donor money that paid for the lawsuit, that's an awful lot of money Danny got 3ABN to shell out to cover up Tommy's problem.
So what does one do?
Did they never report that to the Police? Were the alleged victims underage or forcibly violated?
I remember reading that one was investigated by the police, but rejected. Perhaps that was another person.
FYI
Not all Churches/Schools use RMS, several conferences and Churches have gone another way. Two recent lawsuits, Minnesota and Central California had other insurance.
In our Conference, we have Churches opt out in the past. Most have regretted.
***********************************************
I was arrested one time for not paying a speeding ticket. I was 19 or so. My police investigation/clearance for a Green Card, came out shiny clean.
-------------------------------
Edited by Artiste to remove inappropriate content.
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Did they never report that to the Police?
As far as I know, John Lomacang never reported Danny's cover up to the police. While I could be wrong, his reporting such would not have jived with his teaching televised the previous August that Danny is beyond human correction.
I've never had any indication that Walt Thompson, Mollie Steenson, or any other board member ever reported Danny's cover up to the police.
Were the alleged victims underage or forcibly violated?
I only know of one alleged victim in Illinois that wasn't a minor, and two in Virginia. Out of the 8 I have personally spoken with or with their mother, only one wasn't a minor at the time.
I remember reading that one was investigated by the police, but rejected. Perhaps that was another person.
One should also consider the source. If Danny et. al. is the source of that information, it is suspect from the get go.
Thank you for the clarification that RMS may not have been the insurer of the churches and conference under consideration.
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Bob
Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time :)
I would have to do a lot more research before I commented.. but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
Stan,
Which was worse, being a pedophilic pastor or being a televangelist that
worked overtime to bury the truth and prevent accountability????
And which is worse, being an assessory to the conspiracy to bury the truth
or spreading the TRUTH all over the net???
When you get done answering these questions, find a mirror!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Is this still relevant?
Bob
Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time :)
I would have to do a lot more research before I commented.. but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
OK, I hardly ever say anything here anymore, but this one...
The pastor who told my mom not to say anything publically about my great-grandfather's molestation of me, had the same attitude. The pastor who wouldn't report his own daughter's molestation because he didn't want his church to "look bad" had the same attitude.
Abuse lives and spreads because of just such attitudes. It lives in the dark. It continues because it is so unthinkable that people don't want to believe it happens, and if it does, don't want to hear about it or have it known. Just put it behind us; I am sure they must be sorry; what will the "world" think; it is none of our business; etc.
And it is very common to hear someone who has done something despicable get very upset that their act has been exposed. They are more angry that it was brought to light than that they actually did it. Which brings into question the depth of their "repentance", in my opinion...
:scratch:
scratsmom--knowing that what she just said made no difference whatsoever, but I feel better... :)
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Is this still relevant?
Bob
Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time :)
I would have to do a lot more research before I commented.. but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
OK, I hardly ever say anything here anymore, but this one...
The pastor who told my mom not to say anything publically about my great-grandfather's molestation of me, had the same attitude. The pastor who wouldn't report his own daughter's molestation because he didn't want his church to "look bad" had the same attitude.
Abuse lives and spreads because of just such attitudes. It lives in the dark. It continues because it is so unthinkable that people don't want to believe it happens, and if it does, don't want to hear about it or have it known. Just put it behind us; I am sure they must be sorry; what will the "world" think; it is none of our business; etc.
And it is very common to hear someone who has done something despicable get very upset that their act has been exposed. They are more angry that it was brought to light than that they actually did it. Which brings into question the depth of their "repentance", in my opinion...
:scratch:
scratsmom--knowing that what she just said made no difference whatsoever, but I feel better... :)
Yes, sratsmom, what you said is very important. So often in my ministry I have discovered that offenders get very upset when their evil acts are discovered. Very frequently they will give someone else the fault.
I could tell many horrible stories of what I have experienced in my ministry. This one happened more than half a century ago and the man has been in his grave for many years. It was the farmer trying to convince me he was innocent though he spent two years in prison. i got the story from himself. In the morning he'd send his wife out milking the cows while he had worship in bed with the young girl whose mother wanted her young daughter out of the big city to be with Christian people. He told me that the two of them prayed so sincerely together that they would not sin against God. But somehow or other they had to find out if this twelve-year old had reached sexual maturity. Since they had asked God to guide them he was not doing anything wrong.
He came to church and Sabbath school every Sabbath, and he wanted me to convince the members he had not done anything wrong. He was just one of several making similar attempts that I have had contacts with during my ministry. Every time the pastor finds out when it is too late to prevent it from happening or stop it at the beginning.
How would you handle such people if you were their pastor? Two years in prison was not the cure he needed. Did it prevent others from treating minors the same way?
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Johann, "cure" is not a word I would use for a child or youth sexual predator, short of heaven. Prison doesn't cure, just makes them determined to not get caught again.
My husband is a pastor, and the way he has handled it pleases some and angers others--(what else is new? :) ) He tells the abuser that the parents of children must know, so that they won't strike up a friendship and invite them home with them, (ours were all offenders who were coming into our church after committing somewhere else) and that they will be held accountable by never being allowed to be alone with or around any kids or youth. They are welcome to come, but those are the conditions. So far none have. They want to be anonymous and and have accused him of being unforgiving and unreasonable. Which tells me what they would do (and have done again) when given the right conditions.
scratsmom
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Bob
Since you asked, and I hesitated to respond, until the second time :)
I would have to do a lot more research before I commented.. but I do have to ask..
Which was worse, doing that? OR spreading it all over the 'net?
Stan,
Which was worse, being a pedophilic pastor or being a televangelist that
worked overtime to bury the truth and prevent accountability????
And which is worse, being an accessory to the conspiracy to bury the truth
or spreading the TRUTH all over the net???
When you get done answering these questions, find a mirror!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Stan,
I seem to remember somebody named Stan being happy that he wasn't going to be sued by Danny Shelton as were some others. Are you that same Stan? I'm asking.
I don't know if you ever shared your IP addresses, etc., with Danny Shelton or if you did not. Only you can answer that question.
Maybe this would be a good time to say what you did or did not do to facilitate Danny Shelton's lawsuit, Stan. You wouldn't need to do too much of your research to answer that.
Little Grasshopper
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God forgives our sins, but there are things that we are still held accountable for after we have sinned. Child abuse is one. TS, if he is found guilty, has many things to things to repay. Not only, should he spend long years in prison, but then he NEVER,NEVER should be around another child as long as he lives, that's if he ever gets out of prison. If I were the judge, I would throw away the key. They are never rehabilitated.... they are just waiting....
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I know that Blood is thicker that Water, but DS is really sticking his neck out for TS. AFter reading Roger Clem's letter to TS, if he has forgiven Tommy, then he is doing better than I might. Right now, I am so angry at TS and his lies and coverups and blaming everyone else but himself for his "sickness", that he makes me"SICK". I want to put him and those just like him UNDER THE JAIL. He probably was molested as a child, as this is a sickness that just keeps on giving, unless it is stopped... but the family should have stopped it. Were they some sort of" back woods hicks," that accepted that kind of behavior?
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I know that Blood is thicker that Water, but DS is really sticking his neck out for TS. AFter reading Roger Clem's letter to TS, if he has forgiven Tommy, then he is doing better than I might. Right now, I am so angry at TS and his lies and coverups and blaming everyone else but himself for his "sickness", that he makes me"SICK". I want to put him and those just like him UNDER THE JAIL. He probably was molested as a child, as this is a sickness that just keeps on giving, unless it is stopped... but the family should have stopped it. Were they some sort of" back woods hicks," that accepted that kind of behavior?
Yes, the family should have stopped it. Even a wife, even a mother, even a brother! but you see cover up finished him as he continued in his cover!! Their protection cost him in the end and so shall it be with other sympathizers.
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I know that Blood is thicker that Water, but DS is really sticking his neck out for TS. AFter reading Roger Clem's letter to TS, if he has forgiven Tommy, then he is doing better than I might. Right now, I am so angry at TS and his lies and coverups and blaming everyone else but himself for his "sickness", that he makes me"SICK". I want to put him and those just like him UNDER THE JAIL. He probably was molested as a child, as this is a sickness that just keeps on giving, unless it is stopped... but the family should have stopped it. Were they some sort of" back woods hicks," that accepted that kind of behavior?
Issues of child molestation stir feelings of outrage and are understandably contentious and therefore anger understood.
I am distrurbed though when I read things like the following:
"I want to put him and those just like him UNDER THE JAIL."
and:
"He probably was molested as a child, as this is a sickness that just keeps on giving, unless it is stopped... but the family should have stopped it. Were they some sort of" back woods hicks," that accepted that kind of behavior?"
I believe murderous or vigilante justice type statements and insults of the entire family are uncalled for and over the top.
I would hope as Christians this kind of thing is not repeated on this forum, or considered appropriate by the majority here and that this is not the consensus here or accepted and condoned or defended.
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In other words instead of outcry from the morally sane you want hush! Typical I guess for cover overs.
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tinka, did you understand what Ian said? She did not say to cover up anything or to "hush" up anything. No one is trying to "cover over" anything about this case.
Of course it is terrible to think of anyone being molested, a horrifying thing. What I think Ian is trying to say is to let the courts decide whether he is guilty or not--but to scream out that he is guilty or desiring that he be thrown "UNDER THE JAIL" before being convicted is a terrible thing to say about anyone before they are even found guilty or not. Because someone is "charged" does NOT make them guilty until the Courts investigate and make a decision. This decision by the Courts is completely out of our hands.
And then to include the family all together--well, are you like your brothers or sisters, mother or father? Of course not. There is NO SUCH THING as the whole family being guilty simply because they are related to one who has been charged of a crime.
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The charged person can plead guilty, that is another option. The superintendent of school in my area plead guilty to a DUI against his lawyers advice because he was guilty. He was man enough to stand up and say I drove drunk.
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I know that Blood is thicker that Water, but DS is really sticking his neck out for TS. AFter reading Roger Clem's letter to TS, if he has forgiven Tommy, then he is doing better than I might. Right now, I am so angry at TS and his lies and coverups and blaming everyone else but himself for his "sickness", that he makes me"SICK". I want to put him and those just like him UNDER THE JAIL. He probably was molested as a child, as this is a sickness that just keeps on giving, unless it is stopped... but the family should have stopped it. Were they some sort of" back woods hicks," that accepted that kind of behavior?
Some members of the family knew about it, others didn't. I think your describing them as "back woods hicks" is a bit over the top.
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Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely.
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Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely.
Perhaps. It might also help him get a better sentence than he might get otherwise.
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Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely.
Wendal....
I am speaking here as someone who has asked and been answered by involved parties. Have you? I, admittedly, have no idea where you have received your opinions and views, or on what you have based them, but would ask that you submit any evidence or support for them from your POV before repeating it or defending it, or condemning even one or any other who is undeserving of such.
Tommy Shelton has paid for his own lawyer.
Tommy Shelton is basing and making his plea based on his pov and what he knows and proclaims.
Tommy Shelton's family has already been trashed here regardless of anything he may say or do, and in the interest of justice this needs to be pursued and answered according to the facts of the case and regardless of who accuses and condemns his relatives or the 3ABN ministry.
If anyone, has evidence to contradict this then they need to contact law enforcement, and either post the facts concerning that here or hush their mouths.
3d
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If anyone, has evidence to contradict this then they need to contact law enforcement, and either post the facts concerning that here or hush their mouths.
I think you are wrong. Anyone who wants to is free to express their concern or outrage at Danny Shelton and 3ABN covering up the child molestation allegations against Tommy.
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Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely.
Wendal....
I am speaking here as someone who has asked and been answered by involved parties. Have you? I, admittedly, have no idea where you have received your opinions and views, or on what you have based them, but would ask that you submit any evidence or support for them from your POV before repeating it or defending it, or condemning even one or any other who is undeserving of such.
Tommy Shelton has paid for his own lawyer.
Tommy Shelton is basing and making his plea based on his pov and what he knows and proclaims.
Tommy Shelton's family has already been trashed here regardless of anything he may say or do, and in the interest of justice this needs to be pursued and answered according to the facts of the case and regardless of who accuses and condemns his relatives or the 3ABN ministry.
If anyone, has evidence to contradict this then they need to contact law enforcement, and either post the facts concerning that here or hush their mouths.
3d
I notice that 3d didn't post any "evidence" either.
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Defender,
First, I take it you are an angry person. Next, you are most likely a close friend or relative of TS. If you were on the stand defending TS I would love to ask you several questions. The first one is are you related to the defendant. If you answer yes then I can impeach your testimony as being bias toward the defendant which could lower your credibility to the jury. Next, I would ask did you know that TS had a problem with the molestation of children. If you answer yes then you are toast on any further testimony being credibile and then the fun begins to discredit you. If you answer no then you do not really know the defendant.
Then you do not have personal knowledge that TS did or did not comitt the crimes alleged because you were not there. Next you state that you have talked to the parties=most likely an objection from the prosecutor as Hearsay and not admissilbe evidence.
Conclusion=you are not a credible witness. :wave:
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Good point, Duane.
DD/TD, why not post here copies of canceled checks written by Tommy and sent to his lawyer? That would prove that Tommy is paying for his own lawyer, as long as the lawyer doesn't refund the money and get paid some other way on the side.
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Last post should have been defense attorney instead of prosecutor. :wave:
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Defender,
First, I take it you are an angry person. Next, you are most likely a close friend or relative of TS. If you were on the stand defending TS I would love to ask you several questions. The first one is are you related to the defendant. If you answer yes then I can impeach your testimony as being bias toward the defendant which could lower your credibility to the jury. Next, I would ask did you know that TS had a problem with the molestation of children. If you answer yes then you are toast on any further testimony being credibile and then the fun begins to discredit you. If you answer no then you do not really know the defendant.
Then you do not have personal knowledge that TS did or did not comitt the crimes alleged because you were not there. Next you state that you have talked to the parties=most likely an objection from the prosecutor as Hearsay and not admissilbe evidence.
Conclusion=you are not a credible witness. :wave:
Which all just goes to show you don't know what you are talking about.
I did not express anger to you as I was not angry when I posted, yet you wrongly conclude that I am an angry person and post that to all here.
I am not related to TS and have no knowledge of TS having a "problem with child molestation" nor am I a witness to any events which would qualify me as a witness for either the defense or the prosecution, and have not claimed that or even posted anything as far as that goes.
I have read what is alleged like the rest of you, and it is my point of view that there is enough to investigate but there is not enough to conclude that he is guilty, or that he is not guilty. That is for the courts to decide after hearing all from both parties and weighing all the evidence in the case. But none of this has anything to do with what I was replying to and posted.
Which was the following from you:
"Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely."
"Did he get bailed out? and if he did who paid for that? :dunno:"
And this from COTK:
"Who is Tommy's lawyer? Anybody know? And who is paying for him?"
I posted what I was told by the family in answer to those things. Which is that Tommy paid his own bail and is paying for his own lawyer and his plea will be based on his knowledge of the events in question and the allegations against him and the two who are accusing him. That has nothing to do with a plea for his family or a plea for 3abn, despite the attempts here on this forum to make it so. Neither 3abn nor Tommy's family are charged in the case. Nor does 3ABN have any reason to be involved financially in the case.
You call my answer "hearsay" but you are wrong. That is what I was told and I am a first person witness to that and can say that, and I don't need to supply canceled checks nor anything else to testify to what I was told.
You are right when you say hearsay is inadmissible in court, you are just incorrect in your definition of what hearsay is. If someone else repeats what I posted it would be hearsay. When Pickle and Joy keep claiming an unnamed or protected source says... to make their accusations and allegations? That is hearsay.
:waving:
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Defender,
First, I take it you are an angry person. Next, you are most likely a close friend or relative of TS. If you were on the stand defending TS I would love to ask you several questions. The first one is are you related to the defendant. If you answer yes then I can impeach your testimony as being bias toward the defendant which could lower your credibility to the jury. Next, I would ask did you know that TS had a problem with the molestation of children. If you answer yes then you are toast on any further testimony being credibile and then the fun begins to discredit you. If you answer no then you do not really know the defendant.
Then you do not have personal knowledge that TS did or did not comitt the crimes alleged because you were not there. Next you state that you have talked to the parties=most likely an objection from the prosecutor as Hearsay and not admissilbe evidence.
Conclusion=you are not a credible witness. :wave:
Which all just goes to show you don't know what you are talking about.
I did not express anger to you as I was not angry when I posted, yet you wrongly conclude that I am an angry person and post that to all here.
I am not related to TS and have no knowledge of TS having a "problem with child molestation" nor am I a witness to any events which would qualify me as a witness for either the defense or the prosecution, and have not claimed that or even posted anything as far as that goes.
I have read what is alleged like the rest of you, and it is my point of view that there is enough to investigate but there is not enough to conclude that he is guilty, or that he is not guilty. That is for the courts to decide after hearing all from both parties and weighing all the evidence in the case. But none of this has anything to do with what I was replying to and posted.
Which was the following from you:
"Is TS going to agree to a plea to protect his family and 3ABN from public scrutiny? =Most likely."
"Did he get bailed out? and if he did who paid for that? :dunno:"
And this from COTK:
"Who is Tommy's lawyer? Anybody know? And who is paying for him?"
I posted what I was told by the family in answer to those things. Which is that Tommy paid his own bail and is paying for his own lawyer and his plea will be based on his knowledge of the events in question and the allegations against him and the two who are accusing him. That has nothing to do with a plea for his family or a plea for 3abn, despite the attempts here on this forum to make it so. Neither 3abn nor Tommy's family are charged in the case. Nor does 3ABN have any reason to be involved financially in the case.
You call my answer "hearsay" but you are wrong. That is what I was told and I am a first person witness to that and can say that, and I don't need to supply canceled checks nor anything else to testify to what I was told.
You are right when you say hearsay is inadmissible in court, you are just incorrect in your definition of what hearsay is. If someone else repeats what I posted it would be hearsay. When Pickle and Joy keep claiming an unnamed or protected source says... to make their accusations and allegations? That is hearsay.
:waving:
I don't know anything about Tommy paying for his own attorney, but I did hear differently about his bail. So let me guess, what I heard is hearsay and what you posted should be acccepted as fact. Right?
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...I posted what I was told by the family in answer to those things. Which is that Tommy paid his own bail and is paying for his own lawyer and his plea will be based on his knowledge of the events in question and the allegations against him and the two who are accusing him. That has nothing to do with a plea for his family or a plea for 3abn, despite the attempts here on this forum to make it so. Neither 3abn nor Tommy's family are charged in the case. Nor does 3ABN have any reason to be involved financially in the case.
You call my answer "hearsay" but you are wrong. That is what I was told and I am a first person witness to that and can say that, and I don't need to supply canceled checks nor anything else to testify to what I was told.
You are right when you say hearsay is inadmissible in court, you are just incorrect in your definition of what hearsay is. If someone else repeats what I posted it would be hearsay. When Pickle and Joy keep claiming an unnamed or protected source says... to make their accusations and allegations? That is hearsay.
:waving:
I don't know anything about Tommy paying for his own attorney, but I did hear differently about his bail. So let me guess, what I heard is hearsay and what you posted should be acccepted as fact. Right?
You heard? You tell us if it's hearsay, or even credible... Who did you hear it from? I stated my questions were answered by the family. The know that they didn't give their own money to pay the bail themselves, but since TS was in jail at the time and someone had to step forward and make the arrangements and pay it on his behalf they do know it came from he and his wife.
How would the person you heard it from know anything about it, Mr Clem?
Let me guess, as usual you don't have to answer my questions?
And I am a coward because you don't know my name?
whatever...
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I have read what is alleged like the rest of you, and it is my point of view that there is enough to investigate but there is not enough to conclude that he is guilty, or that he is not guilty.
Then would you also agree that there is enough evidence that Tommy should not have been allowed to work around children at 3ABN, and that the elementary school principal and the pastor should have been advised that there was an alleged pedophile on 3ABN's premises? Just so they could keep an eye out to make sure nothing inappropriate happened?
You call my answer "hearsay" but you are wrong. That is what I was told and I am a first person witness to that and can say that, and I don't need to supply canceled checks nor anything else to testify to what I was told.
Yet up above you stated:
Tommy Shelton has paid for his own lawyer.
It appears to me that you stated that as fact, rather than stating that your were told that by so and so. Yet you have no personal knowledge that Tommy has indeed paid for his own lawyer. Thus, I think you are incorrect when you stated that what you said was not hearsay.
Canceled checks, please.
If you feel free to say that family told you such and such, why not just come out and tell us which family member told you? Why keep that a secret? And how do we even know that you talked to a family member that would know?
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Let me guess, as usual you don't have to answer my questions?
And I am a coward because you don't know my name?
whatever...
While I recognize that I cannot hear your voice on this forum, what you wrote sounds like manipulation and whining. Why not find a more forthright, non-manipulative and honest approach when communicating? Also, some things won't and shouldn't come out until their proper time and place,aka court.
RBF
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...I posted what I was told by the family in answer to those things. Which is that Tommy paid his own bail and is paying for his own lawyer and his plea will be based on his knowledge of the events in question and the allegations against him and the two who are accusing him. That has nothing to do with a plea for his family or a plea for 3abn, despite the attempts here on this forum to make it so. Neither 3abn nor Tommy's family are charged in the case. Nor does 3ABN have any reason to be involved financially in the case.
You call my answer "hearsay" but you are wrong. That is what I was told and I am a first person witness to that and can say that, and I don't need to supply canceled checks nor anything else to testify to what I was told.
You are right when you say hearsay is inadmissible in court, you are just incorrect in your definition of what hearsay is. If someone else repeats what I posted it would be hearsay. When Pickle and Joy keep claiming an unnamed or protected source says... to make their accusations and allegations? That is hearsay.
:waving:
I don't know anything about Tommy paying for his own attorney, but I did hear differently about his bail. So let me guess, what I heard is hearsay and what you posted should be acccepted as fact. Right?
You heard? You tell us if it's hearsay, or even credible... Who did you hear it from? I stated my questions were answered by the family. The know that they didn't give their own money to pay the bail themselves, but since TS was in jail at the time and someone had to step forward and make the arrangements and pay it on his behalf they do know it came from he and his wife.
How would the person you heard it from know anything about it, Mr Clem?
Let me guess, as usual you don't have to answer my questions?
And I am a coward because you don't know my name?
whatever...
I heard it from a family member as well
The ball is in your court. :wave:
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To Defender.
Hearsay is an out of court statement offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Your statements you heard or were told were out of court-somewhere besides in court-and would be offering them for the truth that (many ways the statements could tried to be admitted for the truth of the matter)=TS is not guilty.
Conclusion=you are wrong about the above definition.
I found it interesting that I was just commenting and was a verbally attacked by you. Hey one of the best things you can do to support your points in or out of court is to keep your emotions under full control. You weaken your argument when you fly off the handle. :wave:
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...I posted what I was told by the family in answer to those things.
And is that supposed to be credible?
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And I am a coward because you don't know my name?
I think we know your name...
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Let me explain where I am coming from and my anger: 1st- I was molested as a child, 2nd- I had a "backward" Uncle that was protected because it would have killed my grandmother if he had been put in jail. So we just told all the younger cousins to watch out for "uncle" and while they were little, we older ones protected them. 3- I had another Uncle that molested his own daughters and it was kept quiet. 4- In the "backwoods" of Appalachia it is often common place just to overlook incest. So yes, I am angry. IF, Tommy Shelton is GUILTY, he should be LOCKED UP and IF Danny COVERED IT UP, he is JUST AS GUILTY. Remember, I said IF..... If you haven't been molested, you don't know what you are talking about.....