Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Johann on April 02, 2009, 03:43:18 PM
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It appears that Tommy Shelton's health is not the best right now. If this is so he needs our prayers.
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I have been told that Tommy suffered a massive heart attack on Monday, and last I heard the prognosis was not good.
Johann is right. Prayer is definitely needed.
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He is still a human being who God loves.
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He is still a human being who God loves.
Really? Honestly? I thought he was an alien from Mars with his own UFO to fly around in. ::)
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He is still a human being who God loves.
Really? Honestly? I thought he was an alien from Mars with his own UFO to fly around in. ::)
Is that where you came from?
Edited to fix formatting only.
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He is still a human being who God loves.
Really? Honestly? I thought he was an alien from Mars with his own UFO to fly around in. ::)
What a disgusting comment, Junebug. Is it really necessary to resort to such sarcasm when a man's life may be hanging in the balance? Good grief.
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He is still a human being who God loves.
God loves us all in spite of our successes or failures....
Johann, I know you probably meant well by what you stated but it does have the hint of judgmentalism which is definitely not needed in a thread in which we are lifting one of our brothers and his loved ones up before the throne of God.
Are you certain your response to Junebug is a fitting one here in this thread?
Really? Honestly? I thought he was an alien from Mars with his own UFO to fly around in. ::)
Junebug, I understand the the emotions that are driving your posting of this statement, and in any other thread here on this forum the sarcasm might be appropriate but does a spirit of contention belong in a thread where we are lifting up Tommy and his loved ones before our God? Should it not be, instead, the spirit of prayer?
We all come from a common bloodline; we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God; we are all mortal; we are all loved by God no matter what.
Please folks, let's set aside the acrimony of this saga in this thread and just focus on lifting Tommy up.
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He is still a human being who God loves.
Johann, my understanding of your meaning here is that Tommy Shelton is a human being loved by God in spite of the very public allegations swirling about him, and that the hope exists that he will make things right with anyone he needs to before it is too late... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...
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Even if Junebug uses a strange name, I'm sure that behind the disguise is a person whom God loves.
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I was told tonight that Tommy is home and doing some better, but still has a couple of blockages that will have to be dealt with.
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I am also disappointed in some of the posts in this thread, therefore, let us indeed focus on praying for Tommy Shelton. :praying:
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Now, I know that Joahnn can most definitely speak for hiimself, however, Snoop, if he meant all that you stated, then he was wrong to do so. Nobody but God and TS know the status of the relationship between them.
I would like to believe that Johann's statement meant exactly what it said, with maybe a hint of reminder to those who are callous enough to do anything but pray for their christian brother(there are more than a few of them here)..........this is just so sad.
TS and his family are in my prayers. This is a time where everyone is suffereing on some level, we need to be about the business of encouraging and keeping each other before God in prayer.
He is still a human being who God loves.
Johann, my understanding of your meaning here is that Tommy Shelton is a human being loved by God in spite of the very public allegations swirling about him, and that the hope exists that he will make things right with anyone he needs to before it is too late... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...
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Now, I know that Joahnn can most definitely speak for hiimself, however, Snoop, if he meant all that you stated, then he was wrong to do so. Nobody but God and TS know the status of the relationship between them.
I would like to believe that Johann's statement meant exactly what it said, with maybe a hint of reminder to those who are callous enough to do anything but pray for their christian brother(there are more than a few of them here)..........this is just so sad.
TS and his family are in my prayers. This is a time where everyone is suffereing on some level, we need to be about the business of encouraging and keeping each other before God in prayer.
He is still a human being who God loves.
Johann, my understanding of your meaning here is that Tommy Shelton is a human being loved by God in spite of the very public allegations swirling about him, and that the hope exists that he will make things right with anyone he needs to before it is too late... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...
Well, I wish I had never even tried, anyway! I don't know what I was thinking...to try to interpret someone else's thoughts. I was just really frustrated with the sarcasm and condescending sermons that had to infiltrate a thread innocently intended to inform the readers about a life-threatening development involving one of the lead players in this 3ABN/Shelton saga.
My bad... :oops:
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Well we are all in the same boat of sinners, but some sinners run their course over the line and it is only God who knows who is walking around already dead. And of course it is not ours to determine but I do know one thing for sure that in the time of Aron he opened up the earth and swallowed the sympathizers. I do have compassion even on serial killers only because I can picture that once they were a brand new baby and think what in the world was done that they did the horrible things and I know that Jesus has a broken heart with their own selfish desires and patterns they chose. But they chose the pattern and I cannot sympathize with the deeds and basically that is what I see in the back and forth emotions here. All we can do is trust and pray. It is an example of what we can expect in our own lives if repentance is not sincere and to confess our sins to one another that we sinned against. It is judgement time. On a serial killer you know he will not take away or kill someone else who's pattern is not evil. And then his circle is broken. This was the instruction in Biblical days as it should be now. Yes it is sad for a human life, but we are all tested.
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He is still a human being who God loves.
Johann, my understanding of your meaning here is that Tommy Shelton is a human being loved by God in spite of the very public allegations swirling about him, and that the hope exists that he will make things right with anyone he needs to before it is too late... Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...
Thank you, Snoopy. I feel sorry for those people who interpret our intentions to fit into their own molds.
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate. I see a man in denial of the truth of his life and the cost he has reigned down upon his many victims. I see a man whose very soul is at stake as he remains in denial, unconfessed of his many sins and unrepentant of the reign of terror and the far reaching results his actions have cost so many lives, even as close as his very own family.
I see a man that we are compelled to pointedly call upon to confess his sins to his many victims and to the congregations that he has left divided and bewildered by the many issues unresolved and unconfessed and defiantly unrepentant!!!! One is compelled to call for repentance, confession and honest effort to make whole the many victims of his prolifically and perniciously predatory life.
What a blessing it would be to have this man of the cloth take up his duty and to confess all, to repent and to take upon himself the sackcloth and ashes to demontrate his repentance. What a rejoicing would and could be had throughout the various congregations and throughout the Shelton family as we had demonstrable proof of his repentant spirit and the reformed life that would result. What a rejoicing there would be in the Hallowed Halls of the Holy City to know that this man has been brought back to the right hand of the Father. Only God knows how many others would be convicted to follow a similar course and deny the life of sin he has embraced for so many years.
Therein lies our real duty, to call for true confession, true repentance and true reformation...else we be found accountable for the unreformed life's very soul. The failure to make this call to repentance must be read as believing that we can be "saved in our sins", an absolute heresy in Adventism.
And to those dogmatic cultists concerned with "judgementalism" I simply reply that "BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM"
and the fruits here have been spoiled for many decades. The many interviews with victims are heartrending and convincing in both detail and impact and simply defy denial.
I, therefore, call for the recovery of Mr Shelton's conscience and for him to confess and repent that we may all rejoice in the resurrection of the damaged souls. And I call for responsible christians to make the same call.
The alternative is eternal loss, and victims lives bitter with the consequences of sin.
The Lord's Will be done!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
My bible says:
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. "
I believe it is a privilege to pray for others and impossible to not love those you lift up in prayer.
I will continue to pray for Tommy and his entire family, and all those around him, and I will continue to pray for you and yours also...
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You need to read scripture a little more. A righteous man is righteous in all things. IF not, what good are the prayers. You may be defender of evil until proven innocent of viewed facts. I understand fully when people do not have visibility of truth as I have read in scripture that the Lord lets you believe a lie if not a seeker of truth. Minds are seared to truth. You are defending what innocent people can see and speaking out on. If there was no evil in the pile this would not have been going on. This is Something like the tea parties going on to fight again for freedom of the biggest money scam. Do you think for one moment that voters that put in this evil party of socialism to spread the wealth will take back on their vote?? Absolutely not as there is one mind set. By the way it seems the pirates of Somalia share the same view. If you have followed that amazement. They are going to retaliate now because they did not get their money.(whose money)?? These patterns never ceased to exist including here
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3ABN_Defender, Reading your post was like a ray of light that comes down through the dark dense forest, reaching to the very ground, and so very welcome. Thank you.
Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
My bible says:
"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." and "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. "
I believe it is a privilege to pray for others and impossible to not love those you lift up in prayer.
I will continue to pray for Tommy and his entire family, and all those around him, and I will continue to pray for you and yours also...
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....
Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.
Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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3ABN_Defender, Reading your post was like a ray of light that comes down through the dark dense forest, reaching to the very ground, and so very welcome. Thank you.
Reminds me of the words of my Bible teacher many years ago. He had been a missionary more than a quarter century, preaching the gospel to the heathen. There was a woman who claimed she received such a blessing whenever she heard the name "Mesopotamia". It revived her soul.
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....
Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.
Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....
Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.
Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?
Ahem, actually, I will give Jesus more credit for his choice of the healing you are referring to than you are - I think Jesus knew this mans heart and probable outcome of this healing. He did have many reasons for his acts, not just one, and certainly not just for the person who was healed. Lots of people were often witnessing and watching what Jesus was doing, and that factored in too, don't you think?
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....
Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.
Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?
Tommy, YES! IF IF IF IF REPENTANT!!!!! YOU GOT IT "GO AND SIN NO MORE!. JESUS KNOWS REPENTANCE AND HE KNOWS THE DAMAGE TO THE VICTIMS. WHERE IS THE REPENTANCE. WHERE IS SYMPATHY FOR THE VICTIMS AND HOW MANY. PEOPLE WILL EVEN ASK WHY GOD DID NOT GIVE LUCIFER THAT LAST CHANCE TO GET BACK AND WILL STILL SYMPATHIZE THAT MAYBE ALL WOULD NOT BE LIKE THIS. I ABOUT FELL OUT OF CHAIR WITH THIS ONE.. IN A SABBATH SCHOOL.. PEOPLE SYMPATHIZE WITH SIN, BELIEVE IT OR NOT. THESE ARE CIRCUMSTANCES IF JESUS HEALED TOMMY, YOU WOULD HEAR IT FROM HIM IN PUBLIC, JUST LIKE JESUS DID BACK THEN IN PUBLIC SO THE PEOPLE WOULD KNOW. WE ALL SYMPATHIZE WITH HUMAN LIFE AND PRAY FOR OUR BROTHER AND LIFT THEM UP BUT I TAKE IT THAT BROTHER MEANS (IN CHRIST). THE ULTIMATE IS THAT TOMMY MAKES THE CHOICE WHETHER HE IS A BROTHER OR CHILD OF GOD. TOMMY MAY NOT THINK HE SINNED ANYMORE THEN GAY BELIEVE THEIR RIGHTS OF CHOICE. I HATE HIS SIN!!! AND TEARS ARE FOR THE VICTIMS. WAS TOMMY EVER A BRETHREN OR JUST TOOK THE BEST PLACE OF HIDING SO HE COULD CARRY OUT HIS FANTASIES OF CRIME. THAT IS WHERE MOST HIDE. IN THE CHURCH. JUST ASK THE PRIESTS. YOU ARE RIGHT ON ONE THING, THE PUBLIC WOULD KNOW OF REPENTANCE AND A BLESSING WOULD BE EXPERIENCED. BUT PRIDE AND DENIAL WILL PROBABLY HINDER IT. I AM PRAYING THE VICTIMS CAN RECOVER AND THEIR WONDER WHY THAT WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN TO THEM. THINK ABOUT IT, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF IT WAS YOUR CHILD? IT IS A CAUSE FOR DEATH. USUALLY DEATH ALREADY HAS HAPPENED IN THE MIND TO COMMIT SUCH ACTS! WOULDN'T YOU THINK?? IF NOT YOU ARE TYPICAL SYMPATHIZER. IN LEV. JESUS THOUGHT SO-- AS WAS COMMANDED DEATH. Like Scripture says that some are already walking around dead. Serial molesters and killers could be what that is implying to or I am just plain stupid. Yes, all sin will keep you from heaven but ...some sin is worse then others and some will be heaped upon more then others unless they repent for forgiveness. Did any victims hear anything from the perp???
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And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....
Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.
Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?
Ahem, actually, I will give Jesus more credit for his choice of the healing you are referring to than you are - I think Jesus knew this mans heart and probable outcome of this healing. He did have many reasons for his acts, not just one, and certainly not just for the person who was healed. Lots of people were often witnessing and watching what Jesus was doing, and that factored in too, don't you think?
Perhaps the problem is that the Tommy defenders haven't read or don't believe the SoP on this point:
"Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, 'Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.' But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man" (DA 202-203).
That came from the chapter about the healing at the pool of Bethesda. The man was healed because he had faith in Christ's word.
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Exactly, You cannot love the truth, and believe then do the monstrous acts or protect them. As you will be held accountable of the act just as it is in a court of law. Accessary to the fact is a modern day law if your caught. With God you cannot hide it.
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Wow I seem to have riled up Tinka. But I must tell him that NO I am NOT "the typical sympathizer" nor can I speak to whether " WAS TOMMY EVER A BRETHREN OR JUST TOOK THE BEST PLACE OF HIDING SO HE COULD CARRY OUT HIS FANTASIES OF CRIME. THAT IS WHERE MOST HIDE. IN THE CHURCH." I do not know the answer to that.
And, No, Bob Pickle neither am a Tommy defender. All I believe is that God Jesus loves all - sinner and saint. He died for all those who are whole and those like Tommy Shelton who need a physician literally and spiritually ( don't we all?). It has been said, and I would like to think you believe also, that God hates sin but loves the sinner. Not by a long shot was I suggesting that I am in sympathy with Tommy's sins alleged or otherwise. But I feel empathy for the stricken Tommy Shelton and pray that God will make him fully WHOLE.
I was, however, responding to an assertion by G A Joy that "Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit." Certainly He did not go about healing all, but there there are SOME whom He healed not because they expressed their faith or because they believed in Him (at least one did not even know whom He was.) Of the man at the Pool :
John 5: And he that was healed wist not who he was: for Jesus has conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
6: Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple an d said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Bob Pickle quotes EGW : "Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, 'Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.' But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man" (DA 202-203).
John 5:8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed and walk.
:9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath
I suggest that at the instant of Jesus' command, quite independent of, and totally without "the man's faith takes hold upon that word" the man was made whole. In that instant it took for the man to be healed there was no time for any mental reaction on his part. He, Christ, spoke and, irresistibly, it was done. There is nothing in the text as far as I am concerned to suggest otherwise. Faith came later, perhaps. That's my story and I am sticking to it!
I do not limit God's power to heal Tommy Shelton if that is His will. God's healing grace is his to implore. His forgiving mercy is also his to appropriate. As a Pastor, Tommy knows what he must do to be heard by God.
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Bob Pickle quotes EGW : "Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, 'Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.' But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man" (DA 202-203).
EGW quotes this because the man was already beckoned by the Holy Spirit to the water. The man already had a simple faith of this much to get to the water. "Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith because he showed it by getting to the water. This is not hard to understand and it is exactly the same thing that applied to the thief on the cross. Bob is not wrong to quote this and it needs to be read again in right context. The man did not go there just on a whim of unbelief. Jesus knew when the woman touched his garment. She had some measure of faith or belief. One thief on the cross opened his mind to some measure of faith beckoned by the Holy Spirit. It was accepted in these cases. The other thief did not chose. I do not understand the backward action and quoting wrong about getting saved and healed with no faith. Absolutely wrong doctrine. Now, I believe that Jesus can do what you suggest but then it takes away choice and then if He did that without any calling to the Spirit then he must do it for everyone and there should be no hell.
EGW does quote that some that are not healed is because they will only go back to do the same thing again. She was quite the common sense writer, inspired by the Holy Spirit and if read in it's entirety watching every word in context there will be no mistake and concocted scenarios, or fanaticism that I see people use to apply for their own benefits. I am not a he but just some old lady looking, and watching for all truth as promised with an open heart. But I use standards given by the Word. Yes, Tommy knows what he is to do but his corrupt desires so far has shown denial. Shall we all get through the Pearly Gates in this condition? You may believe this but I don't. Yes Jesus is broken hearted and yes he loves the sinner, but HE DOES NOT FORCE! Tommy still has choice. He is lucky as far as I am concerned as he took choice away from young victims for a life of ---------what. God yearns for the repentance but will he get it? I am constantly worried what I do to Him and Hate the evil that hurts Him and others.
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Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?
NO!!! Go back and read the Desire Of Ages on this and then come back with your renewed perspective...and was the Faith in the Ripple of Water or the Spirit the purportedly moved it??? In any event, read the account, particularly the response to the call to "...Take Up thy Bed and walk..." You will clearly be enlightened. You may even be converted....to ADVENTISM, not Sheltonism.
Wanna try again???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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It doesn't appear that Fairhavens is involved in "sheltonism." I think that is a misunderstanding.
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It doesn't appear that Fairhavens is involved in "sheltonism." I think that is a misunderstanding.
Fairhaven propounds a premise that could lead one to believe that we can be saved in our sins and that is simply not adventism but the practice of "sheltonism". It is not an indictment but merely an attempt to bring clarity to the glaring disparity.
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It doesn't appear that Fairhavens is involved in "sheltonism." I think that is a misunderstanding.
Fairhaven propounds a premise that could lead one to believe that we can be saved in our sins and that is simply not adventism but the practice of "sheltonism". It is not an indictment but merely an attempt to bring clarity to the glaring disparity.
Aw, Gailon Arthur Joy, I propose no such thing as one can be saved in their sins. My point remains that Jesus healed some people before they believed in Him as Messiah or Savior. The man at the Pool, and the blind man whose eyes Jesus pasted with spittle and clay and commanded by Jesus “to go wash in the pool of Siloam”.
After his masterful defense of Jesus before the council, subjecting them to ridicule and scorn, they threw him out of the Temple. The record shows Jesus sought him after his rejection by the Council and said to him:
John 5 : 35 Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord that
I might believe on him
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast booth seen
Him, and he it is that talketh with thee
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshiped him.
I submit that Jesus healed the blind man, unrequested, and without the least suggestion that he had faith in Jesus before he was healed. The guy had the stuff on/in his eyes and he needed to wash it off. Jesus willed to give him sight and sight he got after he washed. However, after he received sight he became a powerful witness and promoter of the man who healed him, and later, in the second encounter with Jesus believed in Him and worshipped Him as Lord.
Consider:
Luke 13: 11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit
Of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together,
And could in no wise lift up herself.
12 And when Jesus saw her, he called her unto him, and
said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity
13 And he laid hands on her: and immediately she was made
Made straight, and glorified God.
Here again, this woman did not seek healing; did not say to Jesus “Thou Son of David, Have mercy on me”. Jesus saw her in the congregation, Jesus healed her.
Of course, there are instances in the Gospels where some people exhibited great faith in Jesus, for example, the Centurion and the 'woman of crumbs from the table fame'.
My thesis remains that Jesus healed some people before they had faith in Him.
That much I am CLEAR about.
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What a bunch of Malarkey, Did anyone turn on Joyce Meyer yesterday morning and low and behold she talked about that very thing. Even she knows. Just how many years did the man stay at the pool. That is a lot more faith then i would have had. His only complaint is that someone else got in front of him. and he waited and waited his turn. Just what did he expect to happen if he could get near the water? Even if it was the ripples or whatever. He knew something by faith or beckoning of Holy Spirit that he needed to get to the water. Jesus took over and said Get up and walk. The man could have said get lost I only want to get in the water. I cannot believe people try the working of Jesus. All those years Jesus must have known about Him trying to get to the water. How did he know to get to the water and for what reason? You know I understand the lack of common sense and no reasoning.
The woman also heard, and believed otherwise why would she want to just touch garment. She did not have to be in a crowd where she could barely reach his garment!! It was just her measure of beckoned Holy Spirit if she could just touch his garmet. Now that is faith back in that day.
The thief observed that Jesus was crucified with no guilt. He saw and He believed. and the other had no common sense or what ever you want to call it or care less. What religion are you trying to down here? No wonder
everything is seen Kosher on all aspects of the DS Saga. Unbelievable!! Do these people realize that common sense people can follow the money trail?
Infirmity means her sickness not her faith or knowledge!
This is worse then committing all the desired sin and then going to confession or be saved in your sins once and for ALL.(so your desires can be on going?) Maybe you will deny believing this but this is what is going on in factual deeds. We repent because we are sinners and he saves us through faith. and stick to it. Hmm, my Bible says to not die in your sins!!! Baptist, Nazarene, Catholic, Hmmm where have I heard that before. Guess this pain medicine I'm on from surgery has got me going more then i should. Maybe I should realize that all on here are not SDA. Neither is DS. A user of SDA message for non denominational corruption!!
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Aw, Gailon Arthur Joy, I propose no such thing as one can be saved in their sins. My point remains that Jesus healed some people before they believed in Him as Messiah or Savior. The man at the Pool, and the blind man whose eyes Jesus pasted with spittle and clay and commanded by Jesus “to go wash in the pool of Siloam”.
Fair Havens, here is what you stated earlier:
Bob Pickle quotes EGW : "Jesus does not ask this sufferer to exercise faith in Him. He simply says, 'Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.' But the man's faith takes hold upon that word. Every nerve and muscle thrills with new life, and healthful action comes to his crippled limbs. Without question he sets his will to obey the command of Christ, and all his muscles respond to his will. Springing to his feet, he finds himself an active man" (DA 202-203).
...
I suggest that at the instant of Jesus' command, quite independent of, and totally without "the man's faith takes hold upon that word" the man was made whole.
Are you putting your personal opinions above what Jesus has testified by His Spirit through the prophet? Or do you believe?
The quote from DA is clear that the man at the pool of Bethesda had faith. It did not say that the man had faith in Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior.
The same point may be made about the blind man. That he would go and wash as he was told to do by Christ suggests that he too had faith in Christ's word, as Naaman had faith in the word of God spoken by Elisha. Whether the blind man knew that Jesus was the Son of God at the time of his healing is irrelevant to the question of whether faith is either generally or always required for healing.
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That is not neccessarily the case. There is also such a thing a gambling. Many people buy lottery tickets every day gambling that they will win. Some do. Did they have faith? Was that what one them the millions? People gamble on many things.
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... My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. ... Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. ...
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Medical Ministry (1932), page 28, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Section Two - The Divine Plan in the Medical Missionary Work
Christ to Bring Relief and Healing
I have been instructed that we should lead the sick in our institutions to expect large things because of the faith of the physician in the Great Healer who, in the years of His earthly ministry, went through the towns and villages of the land, and healed all who came to Him. None were turned empty away; He healed them all. Let the sick realize that, although unseen, Christ is present to bring relief and healing.--Letter 82, 1908.
The Desire of Ages (1898), page 241, paragraph 1
Not without one more call to repentance could He give them up. Toward the close of His ministry in Galilee, He again visited the home of His childhood. Since His rejection there, the fame of His preaching and His miracles had filled the land. None now could deny that He possessed more than human power. The people of Nazareth knew that He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. About them were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. The mercy revealed in every act of His life testified to His divine anointing.
Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing p 4
Besides the usual crowd from the Galilean towns, there were great numbers from Judea, and from Jerusalem itself; from Perea, and from the half-heathen population of Decapolis; from Idumea, away to the south of Judea, and from Tyre and Sidon, the Phoenician cities on the shore of the Mediterranean. "Hearing what great things He did," they "came to hear Him, and to be healed of their diseases; and . . . power came forth from Him, and healed them all." Mark 3:8, R.V.; Luke 6:17-19, R.V.
The Watchman, October 3, 1905, paragraph 2
Article Title: This Same Jesus Shall So Come By Mrs. E. G. White
It is "this same Jesus" that is coming again, the one who, when he was on earth, "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil." The voice of the mighty Healer penetrated the deaf ear. A word, a touch of his hand, opened blind eyes. He rebuked disease and banished fever. His voice reached the ears of the dying, and they arose in health and vigor. In whole villages there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for he had passed through them, and healed all their sick. And while he healed their diseases he taught the people the way of life.
Bearer of Our Afflictions
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet,
saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt.
8:17.
Christ alone was able to bear the afflictions of the many. "In all
their affliction he was afflicted" (Isa. 63:9). He never bore disease in
His own flesh, but He carried the sickness of others. With tenderest
sympathy He looked upon the suffering ones who pressed about Him. He
groaned in spirit as He saw the work of Satan revealed in all their woe,
and He made every case of need and of sorrow His own. No multiplicity of
numbers distracted Him. No anguish overwhelmed Him. With a power that
never quailed He cast out the evil spirits that possessed mind and body,
while the pain of the sufferers thrilled through His whole being. The
power of love was in all His healing. He identified His interests with
suffering humanity.
Christ was health and strength in Himself, and when sufferers were
in His immediate presence, disease was always rebuked. It was for this
reason that He did not go at once to Lazarus. He could not witness his
suffering and not bring him relief. He could not witness disease or
death without combating the power of Satan. The death of Lazarus was
permitted that through his resurrection the last and crowning evidence
might be given to the Jews that Jesus was the Son of God.
And in all this conflict with the power of evil there was ever
before Christ the darkened shadow into which He Himself must enter. Ever
before Him was the means by which He must pay the ransom for these
souls.... When He raised Lazarus from the dead He knew that for that
life He must pay the ransom on the cross of Calvary. Every rescue made
was to cause Him the deepest humiliation. He was to taste death for
every man. . . . Of the suffering multitudes brought to Christ it is
said, "He healed them all" (Matt. 12:15). Thus He expressed His love for
the children of men. His miracles were part of His mission. . . . He
knows how to speak the word "Be whole," and when He has healed the
sufferer He says, "Go and sin no more."
From That I May Know Him - Page 48
Bible Training School, January 1, 1909, paragraph 4
Article Title: The Wonderful Love of Christ Mrs. E. G. White
In describing His earthly mission, Jesus said, "The Lord hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." This was His work. He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of His divine anointing. Love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of His life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. He took man's nature, that He might reach man's wants. The poorest and humblest were not afraid to approach Him. Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees, and gaze into that pensive face, benignant with love.
Ellen G. White Estate
The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two (1877), page 259, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Chapter XX. - The Loaves and Fishes.
He was so pressed upon by the multitude that he went a little apart upon a grassy eminence, where he could be seen and heard by all the people. Here he taught them through the entire day, and healed all the sick and afflicted that were brought to him. Those who had been confused in their belief, and longed for some intelligent doctrine to relieve their uncertainty, found their darkness dispelled by the beams of righteousness from the presence of Christ, and were charmed with the simplicity of the truths he taught.
The Signs of the Times , June 17, 1889, paragraph 9
Article Title: Christ's Comforting Assurance.[SERMON AT WASHINGTON, D. C., JAN. 25, 1889.]-By Mrs. E. G. White.-
When Christ came to the world, he found that Satan had almost everything under his own control. Christ announced his mission at Nazareth. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to teach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken- hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." This was his work. He went about doing good, and healing all those who were oppressed of the devil. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house, for he had passed through them and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of his divine anointing. He had come to represent his Father to the world; and love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of his life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. This was his work in our world, to elevate humanity by combining divinity with humanity. He took man's nature that he might reach man's wants. With his human arm he encircled the race, and with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the Infinite, and united finite man with the infinite God, and earth with Heaven. Here was man, plunged in degradation, sin, and ruin, and Christ was willing to resign all his glory in order to offer to man the cup of salvation. Astonishment filled Heaven to see man's indifference, to see man so lacking in appreciation of the things that would make for his peace.
Every miracle that Christ performed was a sign of His divinity. He was doing the very work that had been foretold of the Messiah; but to the Pharisees these works of mercy were a positive offense.The Jewish leaders looked with heartless indifference on human suffering. In many cases their selfishness and oppression had caused the affliction that Christ relieved. Thus His miracles were to them a reproach.
That which led the Jews to reject the Saviour's work was the highest evidence of His divine character. The greatest significance of His miracles is seen in the fact that they were for the blessing of humanity.
The highest evidence that He came from God is that His life revealed the character of God. He did the works and spoke the words of God. Such a life is the greatest of all miracles.
Desire of Ages. Page 406
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I am no expert at times in figuring out what is what in the Bible. I have read the Desire of ages many times, but I still am not an expert on why Jesus did what to who.
This I do know; I am a sinner and Jesus went to the cross to die for my sins. I nailed the nails into his hands and feet. My cherished sins cause him pain over and over again as long as I continue in my sins.
I pray for our Father to take my will because I can't manage to give it to Him. Since this mess all began, I have been praying for all of those involved in the happenings at 3ABN. I have been praying for the viewers to not be deceived.
I have been praying for Tommy in a special way. I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to woe him to the Lord for a closer relationship. I know he has a big sorrowful hurting problem. I know he knows what is needed. I pray the Lord will give him the strength and the desire to make those wrongs right. That is not my job. It is God's job. I pray for the Holy Spirit not to leave Tommy, and for Tommy not to grieve the Holy Spirit away.
I pray for his health to continue as long as the Lord needs to fulfill His will in Tommy's life. I know that is the Lord's will, but I do not know Tommy's heart. I pray the same prayer for myself, Danny, Brenda, Walt and others.
I am not worried about who Jesus healed, or who he did not heal. I do not care what it was that healed those that were healed. I just know that God is a God of love and hears the sincere fervent prayer. The rest is up to the person and their relationship with God. I will leave that part with God.
I will just continue to pray.
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I am no expert at times in figuring out what is what in the Bible. I have read the Desire of ages many times, but I still am not an expert on why Jesus did what to who.
This I do know; I am a sinner and Jesus went to the cross to die for my sins. I nailed the nails into his hands and feet. My cherished sins cause him pain over and over again as long as I continue in my sins.
I pray for our Father to take my will because I can't manage to give it to Him. Since this mess all began, I have been praying for all of those involved in the happenings at 3ABN. I have been praying for the viewers to not be deceived.
I have been praying for Tommy in a special way. I pray the Holy Spirit will continue to woe him to the Lord for a closer relationship. I know he has a big sorrowful hurting problem. I know he knows what is needed. I pray the Lord will give him the strength and the desire to make those wrongs right. That is not my job. It is God's job. I pray for the Holy Spirit not to leave Tommy, and for Tommy not to grieve the Holy Spirit away.
I pray for his health to continue as long as the Lord needs to fulfill His will in Tommy's life. I know that is the Lord's will, but I do not know Tommy's heart. I pray the same prayer for myself, Danny, Brenda, Walt and others.
I am not worried about who Jesus healed, or who he did not heal. I do not care what it was that healed those that were healed. I just know that God is a God of love and hears the sincere fervent prayer. The rest is up to the person and their relationship with God. I will leave that part with God.
I will just continue to pray.
:TY: I join you in your prayer, Fran :amen:
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Very good points Fran. Thank you.
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... My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. ... Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. ...
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Medical Ministry (1932), page 28, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Section Two - The Divine Plan in the Medical Missionary Work
Christ to Bring Relief and Healing
I have been instructed that we should lead the sick in our institutions to expect large things because of the faith of the physician in the Great Healer who, in the years of His earthly ministry, went through the towns and villages of the land, and healed all who came to Him. None were turned empty away; He healed them all. Let the sick realize that, although unseen, Christ is present to bring relief and healing.--Letter 82, 1908.
The Desire of Ages (1898), page 241, paragraph 1
Here are key verbs and nouns. I have been instructed, we should lead the sick
because of the faith of the doctor who is attending the sick that believes in the Great healer and then EGW gives reason how to bring unbelievers to faith like in the day of His earthly ministry. None were turned away (KEY VERB ACTION)BECAUSE THEY CAME TO HIM! ALL THAT CAME TO HIM. THEY HEARD, THEY BELIEVED.
Not without one more call to repentance could He give them up. Toward the close of His ministry in Galilee, He again visited the home of His childhood. Since His rejection there, the fame of His preaching and His miracles had filled the land. None now could deny that He possessed more than human power. The people of Nazareth knew that He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. About them were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. The mercy revealed in every act of His life testified to His divine anointing.
[/color]
Thoughts From the Mount of Blessing p 4
Besides the usual crowd from the Galilean towns, there were great numbers from Judea, and from Jerusalem itself; from Perea, and from the half-heathen population of Decapolis; from Idumea, away to the south of Judea, and from Tyre and Sidon, the Phoenician cities on the shore of the Mediterranean. "Hearing what great things He did," they "came to hear Him, and to be healed of their diseases; and . . . power came forth from Him, and healed them all." Mark 3:8, R.V.; Luke 6:17-19, R.V.
HERE AGAIN WHOLE TOWNS AND GREAT NUMBERS HEARD AND BELIEVED AND SOME WENT SO THEY COULD BELIEVE. THEY KNEW THE DIFFERENCE IN THE POWER OF SATAN AND THE GREAT HEALER
The Watchman, October 3, 1905, paragraph 2
Article Title: This Same Jesus Shall So Come By Mrs. E. G. White
It is "this same Jesus" that is coming again, the one who, when he was on earth, "went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil." The voice of the mighty Healer penetrated the deaf ear. A word, a touch of his hand, opened blind eyes. He rebuked disease and banished fever. His voice reached the ears of the dying, and they arose in health and vigor. In whole villages there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for he had passed through them, and healed all their sick. And while he healed their diseases he taught the people the way of life.
Bearer of Our Afflictions
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet,
saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses. Matt.
8:17.
Christ alone was able to bear the afflictions of the many. "In all
their affliction he was afflicted" (Isa. 63:9). He never bore disease in
His own flesh, but He carried the sickness of others. With tenderest
sympathy He looked upon the suffering ones who pressed about Him. He
groaned in spirit as He saw the work of Satan revealed in all their woe,
and He made every case of need and of sorrow His own. No multiplicity of
numbers distracted Him. No anguish overwhelmed Him. With a power that
never quailed He cast out the evil spirits that possessed mind and body,
while the pain of the sufferers thrilled through His whole being. The
power of love was in all His healing. He identified His interests with
suffering humanity. THIS IS THE WAY JESUS GAVE THEM BELIEFHERE IS THE SECOND REASON, HE WAS COMBATING THE POWER OF SATAN THAT POSSESSED THEIR MINDS AND BODY. HE WAS SHOWING THE POWER OF LOVE IN ALL HIS HEALING TO ALL THAT CAME.
Christ was health and strength in Himself, and when sufferers were
in His immediate presence, disease was always rebuked. It was for this
reason that He did not go at once to Lazarus. He could not witness his
suffering and not bring him relief. He could not witness disease or
death without combating the power of Satan. The death of Lazarus was
permitted that through his resurrection the last and crowning evidence
might be given to the Jews that Jesus was the Son of God.
And in all this conflict with the power of evil there was ever
before Christ the darkened shadow into which He Himself must enter. Ever
before Him was the means by which He must pay the ransom for these
souls.... When He raised Lazarus from the dead He knew that for that
life He must pay the ransom on the cross of Calvary. Every rescue made
was to cause Him the deepest humiliation. He was to taste death for
every man. . . . Of the suffering multitudes brought to Christ it is
said, "He healed them all" (Matt. 12:15). Thus He expressed His love for
the children of men. His miracles were part of His mission. . . . He
knows how to speak the word "Be whole," and when He has healed the
sufferer He says, "Go and sin no more." BECAUSE HE GAVE THEM REASON TO HAVE FAITH AND BELIEVE. IT WAS A SIMPLE COMMAND TO THE BELIEVER THAT THEY NOW UNDERSTOOD.
From That I May Know Him - Page 48
Bible Training School, January 1, 1909, paragraph 4
Article Title: The Wonderful Love of Christ Mrs. E. G. White
In describing His earthly mission, Jesus said, "The Lord hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent Me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised." This was His work. He went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed by Satan. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house; for He had passed through them, and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of His divine anointing. Love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of His life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. He took man's nature, that He might reach man's wants. The poorest and humblest were not afraid to approach Him. Even little children were attracted to Him. They loved to climb upon His knees, and gaze into that pensive face, benignant with love.
HE DID ALL THIS TO PROVE FOR THEIR BELIEF AND FAITH. HOW ELSE COULD HE MAKE THEM BELIEVE THAT IT WAS GOD WITH THEM??
Ellen G. White Estate
The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two (1877), page 259, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Chapter XX. - The Loaves and Fishes.
He was so pressed upon by the multitude that he went a little apart upon a grassy eminence, where he could be seen and heard by all the people. Here he taught them through the entire day, and healed all the sick and afflicted that were brought to him. Those who had been confused in their belief, and longed for some intelligent doctrine to relieve their uncertainty, found their darkness dispelled by the beams of righteousness from the presence of Christ, and were charmed with the simplicity of the truths he taught.
[/color]
The Signs of the Times , June 17, 1889, paragraph 9
Article Title: Christ's Comforting Assurance.[SERMON AT WASHINGTON, D. C., JAN. 25, 1889.]-By Mrs. E. G. White.-
When Christ came to the world, he found that Satan had almost everything under his own control. Christ announced his mission at Nazareth. He said, "The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to teach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken- hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord." This was his work. He went about doing good, and healing all those who were oppressed of the devil. There were whole villages where there was not a moan of sickness in any house, for he had passed through them and healed all their sick. His work gave evidence of his divine anointing. He had come to represent his Father to the world; and love, mercy, and compassion were displayed in every act of his life. His heart went out in tender sympathy to the children of men. This was his work in our world, to elevate humanity by combining divinity with humanity. He took man's nature that he might reach man's wants. With his human arm he encircled the race, and with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the Infinite, and united finite man with the infinite God, and earth with Heaven. Here was man, plunged in degradation, sin, and ruin, and Christ was willing to resign all his glory in order to offer to man the cup of salvation. Astonishment filled Heaven to see man's indifference, to see man so lacking in appreciation of the things that would make for his peace.
Every miracle that Christ performed was a sign of His divinity. He was doing the very work that had been foretold of the Messiah; but to the Pharisees these works of mercy were a positive offense.The Jewish leaders looked with heartless indifference on human suffering. In many cases their selfishness and oppression had caused the affliction that Christ relieved. Thus His miracles were to them a reproach. THIS IS HOW JESUS PROVED HIS DIVINITY TO ALL THAT CAME AND BELIEVED.
That which led the Jews to reject the Saviour's work was the highest evidence of His divine character. The greatest significance of His miracles is seen in the fact that they were for the blessing of humanity.
The highest evidence that He came from God is that His life revealed the character of God. He did the works and spoke the words of God. Such a life is the greatest of all miracles.
Desire of Ages. Page 406
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THANK YOU FOR BRINGING OUT ALL THESE QUOTES AND CONFIRMING MY BELIEF AGAIN IN THE CAUSE OF MIRACLES, HEALING, AND FAITH TO ALL THAT CAME AND AND WILL COME IN FUTURE OF FAITH AND BELIEF. YOU SEE THE JEWISH LEADERS DID NOT COME AND DID NOT BELIEVE. THAT WAS A GREAT STUDY!
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Gailon;
I read all your quotes from the "Lesser Light". I was blessed. Thank you for sharing those wonderful words!
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Gailon;
I read all your quotes from the "Lesser Light". I was blessed. Thank you for sharing those wonderful words!
Fran, it was 3ABN_Defender who provided the quotes from the "Lesser Light" in Reply #35, not Gailon.
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In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.
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I realized Gailon did not post those quotes when I posted; however, I was going to post to Gailon, but changed my mind and forgot to take his name off the top of the post . I was going to agree with Gailon about going back and reading "the rest of the story" and not just parts of the complete message. (See Gailon's post below.)
Instead, I posted what I felt was important to me. It is not up to me to interpret what God did or did not do, and why. I believe I need to just let God do His business and forget about what was done for whatever reason. That was then, but prayer for Tommy is now. Prayer for his entire family! They have been so deeply hurt by the actions of Tommy. Their whole lives have been changed because of something out of their control!
Tommy is well aware of what his actions have done to so many people. I am sure he knows what is the right thing to do.
When I tried to post my message, a message came up and told me another poster had posted. I posted anyway, and read all the quotes after I posted my previous post.
Anytime anyone, from either side, posts from the "Lesser Light", EG White, and especially from the Desire of Ages, I am truly blessed! Even though I realized why the quotes were posted, I read the quotes and was blessed. How could I not be?
This thread is about prayer for Tommy. I am sure Tommy, Danny , Brenda & Walt are well aware of their wrong doings too. They know enough about their Bible to know what God requires. The Holy Spirits job is to lead them to true repentance and to make things right. Their sins are open and need to be acknowledged. They must seek restitution to all they have harmed.
This is not my responsibility. It is the Holy Spirit, Jesus and Father's job. That does not change no matter how many quotes are made or what anyone thinks.
I still feel we need to pray for Tommy and the others to not grieve the Holy Spirit away. Please pray for me in the same manner. None of us know when our time will be gone. God loves us all and died for us all. We all, each and everyone of us, no matter whose side we are on, need to stay close to God and not grieve the calling of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
God has already brought to light many things done in the dark. Much is now common knowledge! I agree with Gailon, There is more to come. The Holy Spirit is responsible for what is left to be revealed. Not me. This is a serious situation. Serious events have happened. It has to stop. God is faithful and will do His job well. Others will come forward and make more dark things light.
I just pray we will all hold on to our faith and not loose our eternal life on personal opinions. All of us are good at talking the talk, but few are willing to walk the walk. I have failed many times, just as those names mentioned have.
So, yes, the quotes did bless me. The scripture quotes are a blessing too. Somewhere someone forgot why we are here. Tommy has had a scrape with death and the Lord has given him life so far. What will he choose to do with his extended chance? That is what I am praying for. I am thanking The Lord for sparing his life. I am praying that the Holy Spirit will work to help Tommy make things right before his chances at life are over.
Joy link=topic=1635.msg19706#msg19706 date=1240187620]
Ahem... Did not Jesus heal unasked? Therefore faith is apparently not present (at least not before healing took place). Consider the man at the pool of Bethesda. Did he particularly express faith in Jesus or in the efficacy of the 'disturbed' water? Yet Jesus healed him even though he didn't ask. I suppose faith in Jesus came after the fact. Consider that Jesus will heal the sinner first and then command "Go and sin no more." He can do the same for Tommy, no?
NO!!! Go back and read the Desire Of Ages on this and then come back with your renewed perspective...and was the Faith in the Ripple of Water or the Spirit the purportedly moved it??? In any event, read the account, particularly the response to the call to "...Take Up thy Bed and walk..." You will clearly be enlightened. You may even be converted....to ADVENTISM, not Sheltonism.
Wanna try again???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
[/quote]eveal.
Gailon;
I read all your quotes from the "Lesser Light". I was blessed. Thank you for sharing those wonderful words!
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In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.
Does this mean that faith is not innate but comes about, or to express it in Johann’s expression, is activated by some action out side of us that triggers acceptance or rejection of the action and/or the actor? Or, is it existing in the individual but is dormant and not developed or manifest until we encounter Christ and decide for or against Him? Can we categorize faith into a sort that we have for the ordinary things of life and of a type that leads to acceptance or rejection of Christ as Savior? Can we have faith in the action but not in the actor? Does a lack of faith in the actor negate the action? (Please, folk, even the dull and ignorant have their story. I say this in hope that I may elicit a thoughtful response from someone.)
I ask this because, going back to John 5, the impotent man, singled out by Jesus out of what John describes as a great multitude (vs3), when asked by Jesus, “Wilt thou be made whole?” (vs6), having no knowledge of who Jesus is, but responding in terms of the knowledge that he has, replies that he can not get into the pool fast enough to be healed (vs7). The man’s response demonstrates faith in the healing power of the water; not in the Christ: of whom, reading the text, there isn’t any indication that he knows anything about. His experience so far gives him certainty that if he can get into the water before anyone else he will be healed. One can describe that as an intrinsic faith in God, I suppose, if he believes that it is God, through the instrumentality of the angel, who is ‘stirring’ the water. So one may say Jesus recognizes that the impotent man has faith in Him, indirectly, as the God who instructs the angel to stir the water. But he still does not recognize Jesus as the healing Messiah or Savior. He can only describe Him as “He that made me whole” (vs11) or, the man who made me well. He discovers later that the Man is Jesus and reports that fact to the Jews - the enemies of Jesus. I do not mean to make a judgment about his motive.
(By the way, there is no indication in the text that Jesus healed any one else from that multitude. If all these people had been healed, they, like the impotent man would have had to make the ritual presentation of themselves to the priests. Consider how much more of an uproar that would have caused on the Sabbath; this would have been included in John’s report. Yea, I know I’ve opened myself to excoriation by Tinka and others but I call it as I see it.)
But in contrast, the man born blind to whom Jesus puts the question directly, “Dost thou believe in the Son Of God?” expresses in his answer a ready desire to believe: “Who is he Lord, that I might believe on him?” Once Jesus reveals Himself to him he responds in faith and worship.
Friends, (presumption?) the fact that Jesus healed many of these people does not necessarily mean that before they were healed they had faith in Him as Messiah. For many people faith came about after or as a result of the miracles. As a matter of fact despite these mighty demonstrations of His power the majority did not accept Him as Messiah. Jesus Himself lamented that fact. Remember the purpose of the works (miracles) was to cause them to believe that Jesus was the long expected Messiah. But they would not believe.
John10: 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified,
And sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,
I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works;
That ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me,
And I in Him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped
Out of their hand.
The purpose of the healings and other ‘works’ were to create faith in Christ as Messiah and Savior but the majority did not believe.
Can Jesus heal Tommy? Yes, He can. After all, He is "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Heb.13:8
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb.7:25)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn1:9).
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In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.
Does this mean that faith is not innate but comes about, or to express it in Johann’s expression, is activated by some action out side of us that triggers acceptance or rejection of the action and/or the actor? Or, is it existing in the individual but is dormant and not developed or manifest until we encounter Christ and decide for or against Him? Can we categorize faith into a sort that we have for the ordinary things of life and of a type that leads to acceptance or rejection of Christ as Savior? Can we have faith in the action but not in the actor? Does a lack of faith in the actor negate the action? (Please, folk, even the dull and ignorant have their story. I say this in hope that I may elicit a thoughtful response from someone.)
Fairhaven,
Sometimes I answer in red in this manner because I have laptop and cannot remember all statements and then go back and forth trying for the sentences in continual quotes. I like to read others that way but sometimes I make mistakes and then when you try to fix something you can't when I do it this way. But I would like to comment on some things, not that I am always right but I believe the correct doctrine is most important on how and why Jesus did what he did. Wrong issues can lead to false belief. I did do a double take on JoHanns statement. Not exactly sure how he meant the "gift of faith" meaning. In my understanding of simplicity of Adventism is this. I take the word of "Santification" and realize that one has to have a belief in something or doctrine. Now there can be false Santification or belief. To the best of our ability we can read one way and someone else read another as what I see in the best brought out theory that was just posted here by 3abn defender. I am sure he posted with still unless I am wrong trying to show that faith was not needed for all to be healed. But the scenario was not that at all. That is why the Bible is misinterpeted and also EGW with the lack of each word weighted in its entirety and to previous scenario. But back to the word Santification. If you have a belief or Santification or in easier terms a true undeniable belief and truth that came either by man or Holy Spirit this you will have faith in. The easiest I can explain for simplicity(that I lay down for myself) is next word of Justification. Justification is where I believe is the action word that you do what you believe in. As you can believe in anything and not do it as this is not your desire. Just like Satan believes in Jesus. Now if you have the correct belief in doctrine and comply -the next word is Salvation. And that is simple enough. Belief (from Holy Spirit), faith (faith is our will), and Saved (our gift). I do not see it any other way. So if this is just my ignorant understanding, I hope the Lord has not let me believe a lie or I shall perish. It has to come to TS this way also. It only appears so far that he has not come to the second word of the scenario.
Also, in your quoted texts that is where Jesus is speaking to the Jewish leaders that were condeming Him and also the man's motive was not to put Jesus down for healing him but to spread the good news as was done from town to town and villages to villages where belief spread. They believed He was the Healer. Jesus realized that Satan had taken over all and that was the reason He did what he did to prove that HE WAS DIVINITY. THEY BELIEVED, FAITH CAME AND THEN JESUS RELATED SALVATION IN THE WORDS. "SIN NO MORE"!!
So it would be just too long to go back and do all that quoting again. But if you read word for word and sentence after sentence of explanations and scenarios presented by EGW referring back TO BIBLE every point is answered that has come into question. It points out exactly what Jesus did and why. You cannot just look at the words where it says all, all, etc. with no other understanding of the whole scenario. The reason is there and I find it wonderful reasoning. Being that English has always my best subject to read, I admit that I do not write it as best I can for others to understand. and simply at times in a hurry, too bold and brash. I know too many of my faults but try to perfect the things only that I do for others. But reading the
Word of God is exceedingly serious business to perfect all your ability to get it right. noun by noun and verb by verb as all apply and weave the Golden Thread of truth. The truth and nothing but the truth (smile) (smile).
I ask this because, going back to John 5, the impotent man, singled out by Jesus out of what John describes as a great multitude (vs3), when asked by Jesus, “Wilt thou be made whole?” (vs6), having no knowledge of who Jesus is, but responding in terms of the knowledge that he has, replies that he can not get into the pool fast enough to be healed (vs7). The man’s response demonstrates faith in the healing power of the water; not in the Christ: of whom, reading the text, there isn’t any indication that he knows anything about. His experience so far gives him certainty that if he can get into the water before anyone else he will be healed. One can describe that as an intrinsic faith in God, I suppose, if he believes that it is God, through the instrumentality of the angel, who is ‘stirring’ the water. So one may say Jesus recognizes that the impotent man has faith in Him, indirectly, as the God who instructs the angel to stir the water. But he still does not recognize Jesus as the healing Messiah or Savior. He can only describe Him as “He that made me whole” (vs11) or, the man who made me well. He discovers later that the Man is Jesus and reports that fact to the Jews - the enemies of Jesus. I do not mean to make a judgment about his motive.
(By the way, there is no indication in the text that Jesus healed any one else from that multitude. If all these people had been healed, they, like the impotent man would have had to make the ritual presentation of themselves to the priests. Consider how much more of an uproar that would have caused on the Sabbath; this would have been included in John’s report. Yea, I know I’ve opened myself to excoriation by Tinka and others but I call it as I see it.)
But in contrast, the man born blind to whom Jesus puts the question directly, “Dost thou believe in the Son Of God?” expresses in his answer a ready desire to believe: “Who is he Lord, that I might believe on him?” Once Jesus reveals Himself to him he responds in faith and worship.
Friends, (presumption?) the fact that Jesus healed many of these people does not necessarily mean that before they were healed they had faith in Him as Messiah. For many people faith came about after or as a result of the miracles. As a matter of fact despite these mighty demonstrations of His power the majority did not accept Him as Messiah. Jesus Himself lamented that fact. Remember the purpose of the works (miracles) was to cause them to believe that Jesus was the long expected Messiah. But they would not believe.
John10: 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified,
And sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,
I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works;
That ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me,
And I in Him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped
Out of their hand.
The purpose of the healings and other ‘works’ were to create faith in Christ as Messiah and Savior but the majority did not believe.
Can Jesus heal Tommy? Yes, He can. After all, He is "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Heb.13:8
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb.7:25)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn1:9).
-
In this discussion we need to keep in mind that faith is not a personal achievement. Faith is a gift we receive fro God, and is activateted by our acceptance of this gift.
Does this mean that faith is not innate but comes about, or to express it in Johann’s expression, is activated by some action out side of us that triggers acceptance or rejection of the action and/or the actor?
Most religions, including also many Christian, have a notion that faith is innate. This is rejected by Seventh-day Adventists, basing this on the teachings of Scripture. Faith comes to us as a gift from God, and is activated when we thank God for this gift and show our appreciation for it.
Or, is it existing in the individual but is dormant and not developed or manifest until we encounter Christ and decide for or against Him? Can we categorize faith into a sort that we have for the ordinary things of life and of a type that leads to acceptance or rejection of Christ as Savior?
Scripture teaches us that there is nothing good inherent in man. We are all equal sinners, and are in the dire need of grace which brings faith to us. Our own will is but like a rope of sand and accomplishes nothing for us. Our only hope is in Christ.
Can we have faith in the action but not in the actor? Does a lack of faith in the actor negate the action? (Please, folk, even the dull and ignorant have their story. I say this in hope that I may elicit a thoughtful response from someone.)
Any act of Christ is personal. The Ten Commandments as well as the teachings of Scripture deal with a personal relationship. No act has any meaning without such a personal relationship. This does not mean that you have to know the name of the person of Christ before He will bring you the first steps of faith, and yet there is no other name. . . But even in ignorance God works on the willing soul to bring him His grace.
I ask this because, going back to John 5, the impotent man, singled out by Jesus out of what John describes as a great multitude (vs3), when asked by Jesus, “Wilt thou be made whole?” (vs6), having no knowledge of who Jesus is, but responding in terms of the knowledge that he has, replies that he can not get into the pool fast enough to be healed (vs7). The man’s response demonstrates faith in the healing power of the water; not in the Christ: of whom, reading the text, there isn’t any indication that he knows anything about. His experience so far gives him certainty that if he can get into the water before anyone else he will be healed. One can describe that as an intrinsic faith in God, I suppose, if he believes that it is God, through the instrumentality of the angel, who is ‘stirring’ the water. So one may say Jesus recognizes that the impotent man has faith in Him, indirectly, as the God who instructs the angel to stir the water. But he still does not recognize Jesus as the healing Messiah or Savior. He can only describe Him as “He that made me whole” (vs11) or, the man who made me well. He discovers later that the Man is Jesus and reports that fact to the Jews - the enemies of Jesus. I do not mean to make a judgment about his motive.
I believe Ellen White refers to this when she said the man could have said,
- Yes, I will stand up and take up my bed if you will heal me.
In stead he acted on the word of Christ, grabbed his bed and discovered he had received the power to do it. Yes, that was the faith Christ had given him. it worked immediately, and yet this was no guarantee the man would be saved. He had the freedom of will to let go of his faith and trust in Christ at any time in the future. And that is just the way it is with us too. We can grab hold of Christ as long as we are surrounded with grace, and we are free to let go again. We do not know how many times we can do this, for there comes a time when it works no more.
(By the way, there is no indication in the text that Jesus healed any one else from that multitude. If all these people had been healed, they, like the impotent man would have had to make the ritual presentation of themselves to the priests. Consider how much more of an uproar that would have caused on the Sabbath; this would have been included in John’s report. Yea, I know I’ve opened myself to excoriation by Tinka and others but I call it as I see it.)
There is another instance when Jesus healed ten lepers, and only one returned his thanks to the healer. The others were healed but showed no gratitude. To me this indicates they let go of the grace Jesus had extended to them, so even if they werre healed they did not retain the saving grace and faith. We retain this by showing our gratitude.
But in contrast, the man born blind to whom Jesus puts the question directly, “Dost thou believe in the Son Of God?” expresses in his answer a ready desire to believe: “Who is he Lord, that I might believe on him?” Once Jesus reveals Himself to him he responds in faith and worship.
AMEN!
Friends, (presumption?) the fact that Jesus healed many of these people does not necessarily mean that before they were healed they had faith in Him as Messiah. For many people faith came about after or as a result of the miracles. As a matter of fact despite these mighty demonstrations of His power the majority did not accept Him as Messiah. Jesus Himself lamented that fact. Remember the purpose of the works (miracles) was to cause them to believe that Jesus was the long expected Messiah. But they would not believe.
Scripture teaches us that miracles are no proof. Satan is capable of performing miracles as well. We have to look for faith elsewhere.
John10: 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father has sanctified,
And sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said,
I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works;
That ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me,
And I in Him.
39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped
Out of their hand.
There is no magic in these texts, nor in any other words of Scripture. Our understanding comes to us as we compare Scripture with Scripture which creates - through the Holy Spirit - a knowledge of Him, in Whom we belive. Justification is achieved as soon as we belive our sins are forgiven. Sanctification comes as we grow in grace and in the knoledge and daily relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Here there is no other Name. . .
The purpose of the healings and other ‘works’ were to create faith in Christ as Messiah and Savior but the majority did not believe.
Can Jesus heal Tommy? Yes, He can. After all, He is "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever" (Heb.13:8
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them (Heb.7:25)
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1Jn1:9).
Wednesday and Thursday last week we visited Elmshaven, my wife and I together with an old friend, who is a Bible Scholar and teacher living in the area. As we went through this home of Ellen White twice, our eyes were often filled with tears as we saw the chair where Ellen wrote a number of her testimonies, we saw her kitchen, her bathroom, her bed where she died, and where she saw visions that were such a benefit to her Church.
Was this sight a magic which ensured our faith? To some people it might seem to be just that, and millions of people crowd the shrines of the world.
Faith is a personal relationship with God through Christ. Ellen White has told us, and emphasized it by quoting Scripture, that Faith is a gift that comes to us as we accept it in appreciation. It is in that connection she tells us that our will power is just like a rope of sand.
To those who would like to experience a deep faith in His saving power I highly recommend you spend at least three weeks in deep study and meditation over her book Steps to Christ.
One reason I am neither quoting her words verbatim nor the words of Scripture, is that there is no magic powers in the words themselves. But they deal with a divine power which must become a personal experience in the relationship with Him which is portrayed by the prohetic messages from God.
Try this, and you will never be the same.
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Prayer for this man of the cloth turned predator is simply inadequate.
Inadequate? I don't understand, and don't think I really want to. My Lord is all powerful and is the great physician. He had compassion and went about healing all and came to heal even the lame, the blind and the deaf, and causes them to walk, and see and hear, he even gives life to the dead...
And doesn't that sum up the problem in Adventism and at 3ABN???? I don't understand and I don't really want to!!! Says it all in the best summary yet....
Now, for the truth of the matter...I categorically DENY that Christ went about healing all...he healed those who had Faith, a fruit of the Spirit. He did not heal the rich young lawyer that denied his message of healing and eternal life. AND HE WILL NOT HEAL THE IMPENITENT, regardless of how fervently you pray for him. And it is biblically correct that we must call for repentance when open sin is the fruit of the soul....BUT YOU DON"T UNDERSTAND AND DO NOT WANT TO!!!! Therefore, you stand responsible for the impenitent souls that you ignore. And that my dear, is why you are not a Seventh-day Adventist.
Seventh-day Adventist believe in the Bible, the whole Bible, its "lesser light" and nothing more. There are no cultic icons and no corporate righteousness and prophets have the fruits of the spirit, including being the husband of ONE WIFE. And they definitely do not Blaspheme God and HIS WORD by their lives.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
Gailon Joy,
I have answered your post and shown why the words I posted about Christ healing all were in sync with the lesser light. You have not as yet addressed this. Why?
In addition, I was troubled by the post of mine which you replied to.You stated that prayers (communion with God) on Tommy Shelton's behalf were inadequate. It appeared to me that you were taking God out of the equation and dictating what needed to be done by Tommy before he was worthy of being prayed for, as if he had to merit that favor.
I agree faith is needed, but is it not true it is the one who prays who needs to have belief and faith, unwavering, and asks not according to his own will but the lord's who will receive what he asks for according to the Lord's will and timing?
I acknowledge that if praying with another for their healing it is required that we make known that sin needs to be prayed about and resolved between that person and the Lord, but we are not the ones who are to resolve this or act as the HS or Judge, nor are we called to do more than rebuke sin, if and when we have proof.
Aren't those issues best left between that individual and the Lord who knows their heart and mind and where they are in their walk, or not, with him?
He knows what has already been repented of. He knows what is true or false and does not need us telling him or dictating that to him in prayer. How sad is it if we are promoting or asking for answers based on lies and false accusations?
How does the Lord regard such prayers?
In the inspired word I read.
Jam 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you
Do we need to find out if they have repented or have faith before praying for them?
I say NO. I say it is we who pray who need to have repented and have faith. What do you say Mr Joy?
In John 17, what does Christ's example and prayer reveal?, what does his death for all reveal? his death not just for those who were repentant or had faith, but for all who were condemned lost and didn't even know him, for his enemies?
Did the lost sheep come looking for the shepherd in faith? or did the Shepherd go out looking for that lost sheep (depending in faith on his Father) find that sheep, and make himself known and carry and lead that grateful sheep home?
I would suggest to you that the bottom line in the great controversy is God's character of love. His Grace and mercy are freely given, and he who accepts that but does not extend or have that same mercy to others will receive none, by his own choice. That is revealed in Jesus' life and parables, right?
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He knows what has already been repented of. He knows what is true or false and does not need us telling him or dictating that to him in prayer. How sad is it if we are promoting or asking for answers based on lies and false accusations?
What lies and false accusations? Know of any?
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...and exactly how are we righteous? In and of ourselves? NOT! Only seen as righteous through Christ's righteousness. "ALL of OUR righteouness is as filty rags"(remind to tell you the real meaning of the comparison one day)3ABN Defender is right people! No prayer to Our Heavenly Father is ever in adequate. Makes no difference who prayers it, the All Powerful God is on the other end of that prayer. If we have to be "perfect" in righteouness before we pray, how do folks who are not right and want to do right get through? We really don't even understand what we are saying. The Bible says "while we were YET in our sins". NEWS FLASH!!! He already knows it all! AND..........
Since we, mere humans, lack the ability to see into Tommy's heart or the authority to judge it, this thread should have ended at page one or continued with prayers of healing and encouragement for a child of God.......this is even sadder than that left you all made on page one. Johann posted a simple prayer request, and it was turned into this mess...............jes sad.
You need to read scripture a little more. A righteous man is righteous in all things. IF not, what good are the prayers. You may be defender of evil until proven innocent of viewed facts. I understand fully when people do not have visibility of truth as I have read in scripture that the Lord lets you believe a lie if not a seeker of truth. Minds are seared to truth. You are defending what innocent people can see and speaking out on. If there was no evil in the pile this would not have been going on. This is Something like the tea parties going on to fight again for freedom of the biggest money scam. Do you think for one moment that voters that put in this evil party of socialism to spread the wealth will take back on their vote?? Absolutely not as there is one mind set. By the way it seems the pirates of Somalia share the same view. If you have followed that amazement. They are going to retaliate now because they did not get their money.(whose money)?? These patterns never ceased to exist including here
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Thanks, Johann, for your post.
I am thinking that I shouldn't bother to post this but I think it only courteous to acknowledge your reply. I regret any contribution I may have made to this ... this mess.
Since we, mere humans, lack the ability to see into Tommy's heart or the authority to judge it, this thread should have ended at page one or continued with prayers of healing and encouragement for a child of God.......this is even sadder than that left you all made on page one. Johann posted a simple prayer request, and it was turned into this mess...............jes sad.
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Heb.11:1
Faith is the assurance (the certainty) of things hoped (the expectation and desire combined, say, for something to occur) for, the evidence (the clearness, obviousness) of things not seen.Heb.11:1
This is how I have restated the definition with help from the Amplified Bible to help me to understand it. Granted there are other possible ways to redefine the term but this helps me.
Using this definition we can say that the man at the Pool of Bethesda had the clear and certain expectation that he would be healed if he could only get into the pool before anyone else. He would not have lain there on his pallet all these years if he did not believe that. (Tinka supports this in one of her posts) His expectation was bolstered by the fact that over long years, thirty-eight to be exact, he had heard the exultation of the fortunate ones who had gone into the pool and had been healed.
Enter Jesus.
Of the multitude described by John who is all around the pool, and who obviously all have the same expectation as the impotent man, Jesus singles him out. I will not repeat what to me is so obvious about his response to Jesus’ enquiry. Jesus commands and immediately (without pause or delay, is the meaning of this English word) the man is healed. Now I take immediately to mean that the man does not even have a split second to think one way or another: the minute Jesus speaks the man’s infirmity disappears. Another way to say this is, instantly the man was healed. Says John 5:9: And Immediately the man was made whole AND took his bed and walked…”
The sequence of the action: man made well, then he takes up his bed.
He does not know who Jesus is. It is likely, reading the text, he has never heard of Him. He describes Jesus, as the Man, to his inquisitors. Later, when Jesus meets him in the Temple, (and that was no chance encounter) Jesus cautions him: “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee.”vs14. He returns to Jesus’ antagonists and tells them that it is Jesus who has healed him. What may we conclude? Jesus told him who He is. There in no record of grateful thanks or of worshipful belief here. I have contrasted this man’s attitude with the blind man’s response to Jesus in a prior post. The record: “The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.” vs15. No thank you, Jesus. Nothing is said in this respect. Nada.
The aftermath: “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.” vs.16
The drama now has now moves to the Temple. Jesus responds to their hostility by taking the opportunity to make some of the most earth shaking revelations about Himself: He reveals that He is the Son of God with all authority from the Father; yea, even equality with the Father; His works are part and parcel of the Father’s works; what He does are what the Father does and has always done; that they will marvel with wonder and astonishment about what works that He will yet do; the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so can He give life; as a matter of fact the time will come when He will raise all the dead to stand before Him in judgment; that to honor the Son is to honor the Father; to not honor the Son is to not honor the Father; that the person who hears and believes and trusts His word possesses, even now, eternal life and escapes judgment and condemnation.
On and on He goes to make the most heavenly illuminating statements about Himself. He tells them that the scriptures that they search and inquire into (with the diligence of a Pharisee), for life, testify of Him, and yet they refuse to come to Him for life! And hear this, listen carefully, vs36:”But I have a greater witness than John (the Baptizer): for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” Yes, the works, including this one (healing the impotent man) which has brought the angry displeasure of the Jews on Him and, of course the ultimate work, His atonement on the cross “bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.”
Jesus, all knowing, singled out that man for healing so that He could not any more plainly reveal His Deity and Messiahship to all. In reading the Gospel of John I found one other place where Jesus used a healing moment to get His opponents to admit to His Deity. But, of course, they didn’t make the admission.
I have always thought that I should pray for Tommy. God is all powerful and His ways past finding out.
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Thanks, Johann, for your post.
I am thinking that I shouldn't bother to post this but I think it only courteous to acknowledge your reply. I regret any contribution I may have made to this ... this mess.
Since we, mere humans, lack the ability to see into Tommy's heart or the authority to judge it, this thread should have ended at page one or continued with prayers of healing and encouragement for a child of God.......this is even sadder than that left you all made on page one. Johann posted a simple prayer request, and it was turned into this mess...............jes sad.
Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Heb.11:1
Faith is the assurance (the certainty) of things hoped (the expectation and desire combined, say, for something to occur) for, the evidence (the clearness, obviousness) of things not seen.Heb.11:1
This is how I have restated the definition with help from the Amplified Bible to help me to understand it. Granted there are other possible ways to redefine the term but this helps me.
Using this definition we can say that the man at the Pool of Bethesda had the clear and certain expectation that he would be healed if he could only get into the pool before anyone else. He would not have lain there on his pallet all these years if he did not believe that. (Tinka supports this in one of her posts) His expectation was bolstered by the fact that over long years, thirty-eight to be exact, he had heard the exultation of the fortunate ones who had gone into the pool and had been healed.
Enter Jesus.
Of the multitude described by John who is all around the pool, and who obviously all have the same expectation as the impotent man, Jesus singles him out. I will not repeat what to me is so obvious about his response to Jesus’ enquiry. Jesus commands and immediately (without pause or delay, is the meaning of this English word) the man is healed. Now I take immediately to mean that the man does not even have a split second to think one way or another: the minute Jesus speaks the man’s infirmity disappears. Another way to say this is, instantly the man was healed. Says John 5:9: And Immediately the man was made whole AND took his bed and walked…”
The sequence of the action: man made well, then he takes up his bed.
He does not know who Jesus is. It is likely, reading the text, he has never heard of Him. He describes Jesus, as the Man, to his inquisitors. Later, when Jesus meets him in the Temple, (and that was no chance encounter) Jesus cautions him: “Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee.”vs14. He returns to Jesus’ antagonists and tells them that it is Jesus who has healed him. What may we conclude? Jesus told him who He is. There in no record of grateful thanks or of worshipful belief here. I have contrasted this man’s attitude with the blind man’s response to Jesus in a prior post. The record: “The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.” vs15. No thank you, Jesus. Nothing is said in this respect. Nada.
The aftermath: “And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.” vs.16
The drama now has now moves to the Temple. Jesus responds to their hostility by taking the opportunity to make some of the most earth shaking revelations about Himself: He reveals that He is the Son of God with all authority from the Father; yea, even equality with the Father; His works are part and parcel of the Father’s works; what He does are what the Father does and has always done; that they will marvel with wonder and astonishment about what works that He will yet do; the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so can He give life; as a matter of fact the time will come when He will raise all the dead to stand before Him in judgment; that to honor the Son is to honor the Father; to not honor the Son is to not honor the Father; that the person who hears and believes and trusts His word possesses, even now, eternal life and escapes judgment and condemnation.
On and on He goes to make the most heavenly illuminating statements about Himself. He tells them that the scriptures that they search and inquire into (with the diligence of a Pharisee), for life, testify of Him, and yet they refuse to come to Him for life! And hear this, listen carefully, vs36:”But I have a greater witness than John (the Baptizer): for the works which the Father has given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.” Yes, the works, including this one (healing the impotent man) which has brought the angry displeasure of the Jews on Him and, of course the ultimate work, His atonement on the cross “bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.”
Jesus, all knowing, singled out that man for healing so that He could not any more plainly reveal His Deity and Messiahship to all. In reading the Gospel of John I found one other place where Jesus used a healing moment to get His opponents to admit to His Deity. But, of course, they didn’t make the admission.
I have always thought that I should pray for Tommy. God is all powerful and His ways past finding out.
:oops:
P.S.
Sorry folks for the double post. Unfamiliar with editing my post
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No prayer to Our Heavenly Father is ever in adequate. Makes no difference who prayers it, the All Powerful God is on the other end of that prayer.
You are right that it makes no difference who prays it, in the sense that God doesn't care if we are rich or poor, black or white, old or young, sinner or utter fiend.
However, we should still remember the following:
"Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered" (1 Pet.3:7).
A song by Steve and Annie Chapman says something like if we leave a hurt in the heart of our wife, God will not hear our prayers.
"If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me" (Ps. 66:18).
"And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood" (Isa. 1:15).
There may be other verses as well.
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Johann,
You are exatly right on the gift of faith. I did a double take because of the scenario of application to TS. I have been quite under the weather for about the last month and seem to be coming to. But I also have EGW ESTATE on my own computer and this is what I copied:
What kind of faith is that? Is it to believe simply, or is it a faith of admission? There are many here who have that kind of faith. You believe that Jesus was the Son of God; but do you have a personal faith in regard to your own salvation? Do you believe that Jesus is your Saviour? that He died on Calvary's cross to redeem you? that He has offered you the gift of everlasting life if you believe on Him? {FW 70.1}
The apostle then urged upon Timothy the necessity of steadfastness in the faith. "I put thee in remembrance," he wrote, "that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
But Christ as the precious pearl, and our privilege of possessing this heavenly treasure, is the theme on which we most need to dwell. It is the Holy Spirit that reveals to men the preciousness of the goodly pearl. The time of the
119
Holy Spirit's power is the time when in a special sense the heavenly gift is sought and found. In Christ's day many heard the gospel, but their minds were darkened by false teaching, and they did not recognize in the humble Teacher of Galilee the Sent of God. 120
Justification is the part that you accecpt and do. We are both right! We have to except that gift from God, just like all good gifts are from him. This again explains that you must seek and you must find and you must do and obey. The SAVIOR WITH FEW WORDS MEANS SO MUCH! "GO AND SIN NO MORE" WAS SUFFICIENT FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND SALVATION IF THEY COMPLY WITH THEIR NEW FOUND BELIEF OF MIRACLES, HEALING BESTOWED ON THEM. Faith to me is progressive IF you are willing TO FIND IT. That really was my point. But some of these posts seemingly, brought out the gift of "Salvation" without the "Justification" part.
Other posters came up with the "YE shall know them by their fruit". So far the public's view (of course the seekers of truth and the victims) do not see the fruit peeled and canned to perfection.
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AND TO YOU PRINCESS DI,
You sound like the theory of going to AA, I'm an alcoholic, I'm an alcoholic, and when your finally free, your still yelling I'm an alcoholic, alcoholic, alcoholic. What happened to your "free at last", "free at last". What was the good of going if you have your own will? (What was wrong with going to God instead of men and the AA Just an example of figment of speech or example) you are your own rule maker and chose your own games and still into Star Wars, games that take your time for intertainment for yourself and others. How about a game of Chess there?? Stewardship of time means nothing. lack of study it appears as soon as you post and yet you find time to SS. Confused?? Yes very confusing!! You refuse Belief of what Bob Pickle has posted in truth with Scripture. What actually are you doing here or what is your purpose???
Most on here are a protector of victims and not the crimes. And yes all are sad when one chooses not the FAITH and REPENTENANCE THAT WILL GIVE SALVATION. But I also have great sadness for what has been done to victims..probably more. Then there is the law of the land!!!!!!! Here and Eternity.
No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done. What will keep TS from going to victims?? I am wondering if that might help repair some victims? Even tho it must be a life experience that just does not go away like not overcoming being a sinner (or in other words as example (alcoholic even tho no more drink). Man, like Satan has been the convincer of victim to never be free.
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AND TO YOU PRINCESS DI,
You sound like the theory of going to AA, I'm an alcoholic, I'm an alcoholic, and when your finally free, your still yelling I'm an alcoholic, alcoholic, alcoholic. What happened to your "free at last", "free at last". What was the good of going if you have your own will? (What was wrong with going to God instead of men and the AA Just an example of figment of speech or example) you are your own rule maker and chose your own games and still into Star Wars, games that take your time for intertainment for yourself and others. How about a game of Chess there?? Stewardship of time means nothing. lack of study it appears as soon as you post and yet you find time to SS. Confused?? Yes very confusing!! You refuse Belief of what Bob Pickle has posted in truth with Scripture. What actually are you doing here or what is your purpose???
Most on here are a protector of victims and not the crimes. And yes all are sad when one chooses not the FAITH and REPENTENANCE THAT WILL GIVE SALVATION. But I also have great sadness for what has been done to victims..probably more. Then there is the law of the land!!!!!!! Here and Eternity.
No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done. What will keep TS from going to victims?? I am wondering if that might help repair some victims? Even tho it must be a life experience that just does not go away like not overcoming being a sinner (or in other words as example (alcoholic even tho no more drink). Man, like Satan has been the convincer of victim to never be free.
Tinka, in your pointing the finger and casting stones, you give the impression you are in possession of facts which others, even those involved, accusing, or accused do not have.
Here is what is known.
He has been repeatedly been accused of being a pedophile with victims ranging from 6 in number to over 25.
In the early 80's TS admitted to improper counseling with students at the Church of God school that he both Pastored and was the Principle of. Apologies were issued. One boy told a story to his Mother and Grandfather alleging sexual invitations. They reported this to the Police, the complaint was found to be without merit and no charges were filed.
TS admitted to a improper relationship with Duane Clem in the mid 80's. Mr Clem although an adult, was a member of the Church of God TS Pastored. TS offered apologies, and tried to make restition and help get Mr Clem into counseling etc. Mr Clem forgave him and said he did not need any help.
During TS employment at 3abn no children were molested, and no reports were filed alleging that, no complaints were ever made alleging that any wrongdoing on his part had been commited sexually by him to any within the SDA Church or the conference, with the exception of One adult male who claimed TS had propositioned him. His wife claimed he lied. This was investigated and that man withdrew his claims.
Nothing is known about any Victims or allegations since then. Although Mr Pickle on the word of a Church of God Pastor has claimed there are victims. The Church board of the Church of God that TS Pastored in VA, is not aware of any when asked by both TS and others, and has not disciplined TS in regards to anything.
If you or another know of victims whom TS needs to contact, then it would be a good thing for you to contact him and tell him who they are, as he claims he does not know who his accusers are other than the Pastor of the COG, and Pickle and Joy and company, including yourself.
If you or others do not know, then it is wrong to keep demanding repentance and restitution from a man who denies he is guilty without any proof that he is.
More it is inappropriate to pray and ask God to bring this about if it is false for it is testifying falsely about another to the Almighty God himself.
If it is true? well then it needs to be proven, but as far as repentence and restitution goes? God coerces the will of none, and He will not do so just because self appointed judges and condemners ask Him to. Further for individuals to attempt to force TS to confess and make restitution themselves as has been done here is ungodly.
From the very beginning this has reminded me of the Salem witch trials.
Even if it is true and can be proven? The focus has always been one of condemning 3abn, rather than helping any alleged victims. That to me says alot about the motives and intents of those posting about this and doing the accusing.
Edited to remove inappropriate content. "3ABN Defender" - you will not use this forum to denigrate clergy of another faith no matter how desparately you disagree with him. I edited this once already and I'm not going to do it again! You are quite transparent!!
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3abndefender,
If this would be false accusations, I would not know what would be worse. Maybe the extravaganza of funds. I wish so much this would be just a nightmare of facts. First it is not me pointing my finger or throwing the stones. I recall and feel reading the actual letters of accusations the "pointing of fingers" and " the stones". I am just an observer of what I read. This would be wonderful if it was not true. But how in the world can you counteract the rest of the Saga of hundreds of other facts with the whole Saga. My main issue is the money from innocent SDA that honestly gave for the Salvation of others and present the SDA message through nondenominational off chute for :horse: feed, rolex's, sports cars, houses, land, book sales brought about by the use of pew money, jets, fuel, and it does not stop there, community for non religious purposes.
Although I do realize that people can wrongly accuse. Has this happened for sure? I felt when more people came forth the reasoning behind them not going any farther to police was because not to be involved at early age with too much embarrassment in the courts. I could realize that as possibility. I am still a seeker of truth and will battle for it. Yes I have answered some of the personal emails of the opposite side. I have answered to get both sides of story with denial and no proof that it did not happen in the whole saga and appreciate very much your input with the finer details. I wish that could be true. But you yourself have stated and TS has admitted to some of this. So that would present the whole package leaning more to truth. It sort of like when a police officer stopped me for speeding years ago when 20. I sort of told Him I was sorry, but it was just a little red. I wish there could be a quick solution and over but not until it seems 100's of issues are resolved. This would never have been anyone's business if the publics money was not used in all manners business and personal. I still appreciate your post. I believe that reasoning out situations with both sides with proof of documents are essential. But very directly and seemingly intentional this does not happen. I just don't think we all have that much time to get it right. If one quits now and the story or saga is true, all will be held responsible. If not true the responsible part is on the defenders side to prove or disprove the emails and letters in public fashion. What a horrible clink put in the Chain for these last days to be separated.
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No Tinka. I do not accept this. You are not just an observer of what you have read. You are much more. You are a repeater of what you have read. IE a gossiper and an accuser. You did not bother to confirm or prove whether what you read was true or not before deciding to believe it and repeating it as if it was and in calling for repentance from the one you had so judged, and declaring this righteous.
If it is false, despite claiming you would like it to be, you are just as guilty of lying and misjudging as any other in repeating it and acting on it. And you will be judged as you have judged and that judgment includes every idle word that you speak here.
Bringing up other issues as you are attempting to do doesn't make this one null and void, or your's, mine or another's accountability here any less.
One sin led to this whole great controversy and man being cut off from eternal life and communion with God, true?
One lie = one sin. I think all who love the truth should be very careful to examine all diligently and make sure before repeating anything that it is not a lie they are promoting, don't you?
If it is truth, it can be proven, and the accusers should do so, and face the one they accuse with that evidence.
I would hope that if you have no proof, that you will at the very least stop posting this kinda of thing:
"No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done."
You do not and cannot know if he has true faith or not Tinka, You do not know if he needs forgiveness from God or victims. His eternal life is not yours to decide. If he is not guilty how could this be the work of the Holy Spirit as you claim everyone on here has done?
It couldn't be. It would be another lie.
Think on these things.
3abndefender,
If this would be false accusations, I would not know what would be worse. Maybe the extravaganza of funds. I wish so much this would be just a nightmare of facts. First it is not me pointing my finger or throwing the stones. I recall and feel reading the actual letters of accusations the "pointing of fingers" and " the stones". I am just an observer of what I read. This would be wonderful if it was not true. But how in the world can you counteract the rest of the Saga of hundreds of other facts with the whole Saga. My main issue is the money from innocent SDA that honestly gave for the Salvation of others and present the SDA message through nondenominational off chute for :horse: feed, rolex's, sports cars, houses, land, book sales brought about by the use of pew money, jets, fuel, and it does not stop there, community for non religious purposes.
Although I do realize that people can wrongly accuse. Has this happened for sure? I felt when more people came forth the reasoning behind them not going any farther to police was because not to be involved at early age with too much embarrassment in the courts. I could realize that as possibility. I am still a seeker of truth and will battle for it. Yes I have answered some of the personal emails of the opposite side. I have answered to get both sides of story with denial and no proof that it did not happen in the whole saga and appreciate very much your input with the finer details. I wish that could be true. But you yourself have stated and TS has admitted to some of this. So that would present the whole package leaning more to truth. It sort of like when a police officer stopped me for speeding years ago when 20. I sort of told Him I was sorry, but it was just a little red. I wish there could be a quick solution and over but not until it seems 100's of issues are resolved. This would never have been anyone's business if the publics money was not used in all manners business and personal. I still appreciate your post. I believe that reasoning out situations with both sides with proof of documents are essential. But very directly and seemingly intentional this does not happen. I just don't think we all have that much time to get it right. If one quits now and the story or saga is true, all will be held responsible. If not true the responsible part is on the defenders side to prove or disprove the emails and letters in public fashion. What a horrible clink put in the Chain for these last days to be separated.
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3 abn defender,
Your favorite word is IF!! If you can disprove the letters of facts and emails that I have read then PROVE IT! FOR SURE 100% YOU CANNOT COME ON HERE AND SAY --THAT DID NOT HAPPEN! AS THERE ARE MORE WITNESSES THAT SAY IT DID. SO WHAT IF I POST ON HERE WHAT I SAW AS EXTRAVAGANZA WITH MY OWN EYEYS. YOUR HANDLE FITS YOU FINE AS YOU ARE A DEFENDER OF WRONG DOING AS VIEWED AND THAT IS NOT GOSSIP!!!! YOU ARE SCAVENGERS OF FUNDS INCLUDING OURS AND RELATIVES AND PROTECTORS OF 100'S OF ISSUES THAT IN THE RIGHT SPIRIT WOULD RESOLVE AND YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT. YOUR SPIRIT IS EVIDENT! AS YOU FIGHT TO DISCREDIT ALL MANNER OF FACTS PRESENTED AND TO KEEP TRUTH FROM TRICKLING OUT. YOU CANNOT STOP TRUTH FROM COMING OUT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AS YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL WITH THIS EPISODE OF FATE AND NEITHER ARE WE. ALL INNOCENT VICTIMS HERE ARE VICTIMIZED BY THIEFT OR CRIME AND HAVE STOOD UP AGAINST IT. YOU MUST WHOM EVER YOU ARE BE ON THE :horse: FEED. I reached out timidly for some reasoning and you bit only to define your Spirt of Suppressing truth in all aspects. And this is not repeating or gossip but direct brash fact from visual spending, secretely, hiding, or what ever word following your "IF" scenario.
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3 abn defender,
Your favorite word is IF!! If you can disprove the letters of facts and emails that I have read then PROVE IT! FOR SURE 100% YOU CANNOT COME ON HERE AND SAY --THAT DID NOT HAPPEN! AS THERE ARE MORE WITNESSES THAT SAY IT DID. SO WHAT IF I POST ON HERE WHAT I SAW AS EXTRAVAGANZA WITH MY OWN EYEYS. YOUR HANDLE FITS YOU FINE AS YOU ARE A DEFENDER OF WRONG DOING AS VIEWED AND THAT IS NOT GOSSIP!!!! YOU ARE SCAVENGERS OF FUNDS INCLUDING OURS AND RELATIVES AND PROTECTORS OF 100'S OF ISSUES THAT IN THE RIGHT SPIRIT WOULD RESOLVE AND YOU JUST CAN'T DO IT. YOUR SPIRIT IS EVIDENT! AS YOU FIGHT TO DISCREDIT ALL MANNER OF FACTS PRESENTED AND TO KEEP TRUTH FROM TRICKLING OUT. YOU CANNOT STOP TRUTH FROM COMING OUT NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO AS YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL WITH THIS EPISODE OF FATE AND NEITHER ARE WE. ALL INNOCENT VICTIMS HERE ARE VICTIMIZED BY THIEFT OR CRIME AND HAVE STOOD UP AGAINST IT. YOU MUST WHOM EVER YOU ARE BE ON THE :horse: FEED. I reached out timidly for some reasoning and you bit only to define your Spirt of Suppressing truth in all aspects. And this is not repeating or gossip but direct brash fact from visual spending, secretely, hiding, or what ever word following your "IF" scenario.
Tinka, are you aware that when you type in all caps on the internet it is interpreted as yelling? Please type in lower case. Thank you!
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THANK YOU,
I just believed it meant emphasis on points. I never even thought that any making capitals was yelling either. Just emphasizing their points. But I will remember your point. Just got into that habit by critiquing some books that a friend is writing on Political Views in Economy that I had her bring out the points and subjects.
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Well, I do know this. There are victims out there that Tommy has NEVER gone to in an attempt to make any kind of apology. There are also victims with whom he has spoken in an arrogant, consescending way. People like 3ABN_Defender want to come in here, hiding behind a screen name, and try to make it appear like HE is the one who is being done wrong. Tommy is NOT the victim here.
If you're going to accuse someone of gossip and slander, at least be adult enough to sign your name.
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Well, I do know this. There are victims out there that Tommy has NEVER gone to in an attempt to make any kind of apology. There are also victims with whom he has spoken in an arrogant, condescending way. People like 3ABN_Defender want to come in here, hiding behind a screen name, and try to make it appear like HE is the one who is being done wrong. Tommy is NOT the victim here.
If you're going to accuse someone of gossip and slander, at least be adult enough to sign your name.
I totally agree! There is no reason to hide is there?
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ex3abnemployee,
Your adjectives in "arrogant and condensending to a victim" are typical of a molester pedophile, they are quite intelligent to know when and who to choose their victim at a moment of down time that they can be overpowered in vulnerable situations to the point of seclusion of facts over feeling guilt of forced submission or submission. How cunning is their selfish, sick, uncontrolled evil passions that will pick their prey on the most naive innocent and cause the victim to feel all the guilt while they are in denial, arrogant and brought the victim to their bringing down as your adjective suggests. Of course it is worth it to them to depend on the victim wanting only seclusion and no embarrassment. The perp has no embarrassment as the line was crossed long ago and the passion of a perp feeds on. unless of course the seek healing. But the law of the land states this a horrific crime that has been committed that is the same taken from the Bible. I am again saying that we are talking about a typical molester. This is horrible to befall any family either way. These mysteries can only be known why in judgement time. It is brave and right for victims to come forward so there is no more victims but very understandable for victims to flee from the very thoughts and if that is what helps their particular situation then so be it. Sin will be exposed sooner or later in a life time and sins will com out. .....in Public. If a victim finds faith and belief truly then there is no room for any more guilt. Its over or you truly do not believe that God can forgive all things. A person is now free with His trust and faith found in Jesus. The hated sin proves what side a person is on.
Somehow I do not think that too many secrets are buried. Because the Bible says that ones sins will find one out.
Just a little curious about this question and guess you do not have to answer and quite ok if you do not . but wondering if you knew they claimed nondenominational while they collected under the banner of 3 angels message and SDA Insignia or was it claimed after the "investigations" sort of speaking to get through the suits? To me that was the biggest deceivement to the public. If always nondenominational it seems very Intelligent for premeditation of future bail out problems. in other words in business always cover your backside from losing your funds as you proceed in oblivious entanglements. I admit that i could not be that intelligent to cover all the issues that have surfaced in the business of 3abn. It is mind boggling even into all the satelight problems. It happened just one day all of a sudden. Our 3 abn was turned off as we paid for it all. I called in and got a bunch of malarkey. I followed it through right to the stations and engineers and somewhere I might still have their reply on just why!!
Take care and live happy in the Lord and be glad your the ex employee.
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Uh, Tinka, what are you talking about?
Let me make this simple. My problem here is that this thread started out asking for prayer for this child of God, because he was seriously ill, and then it turned into kicking him while he is down. No matter what he has done, a prayer for his restored health is the right thing to do. Continuing to accuse him of already well documented alleged crimes as he fights for his life is not. No matter what he has done, again, two wrongs don't make a right. NONE of us here are responsible for his action, good, bad or indifferent, neither are any of us repsonsible for seeing that he repents(don't get it twisted, I believe he is guilty of pretty much most of what he has been accused, sans some creative licence taken for sensational purposes). We don't know that he has not repented and been forgiven. God is not going to tell us, and TS doesn't have to....either......there doesn't have to be a public declaration of his repentence to satisfy anyone...........simple as that. IOW, you may never see his repentence, but it doesn't mean he hasn't done it. It is just none of our business. How many others here have made public declarations of repentance of sins through which others were hurt? We have all done it on some level, even if it was hurting someone's feeling whom we love dearly. Yet God is gracious and allowing us to feel safe in the fact that He won't put our buisness in the street. Each and everyone of us go and sit in church each and every week safe in the knowledge that out past sins are just that, in the past, God remember them no more, he has cast them into the depths of the sea, and nobody has the right to go scuba diving to dig them up demanding that you publicly repent to their satisfaction. It doesn't matter the sin. That is also extended to TS as God's child.
If TS has repented and been forgiven that is wonderful! Praise God! If he hasn't, it still has nothing to do with any of us(except those posting who are vitims), as he is the one who will pay the consequences for those sins. The rest of us have absolutely nothing to do with it. We can't demand TS do anything.
However, we ARE responsible for our own actions. We are called to be Christ like at ALL times. Jesus did not berate, condemn or belittle the woman at the well, or the woman who was brought to Him to be stoned, Zacheus, and a number of other guilty people. Now, if Jeusu, creator and Redeemer, can find the compassion to give these people common respect and lovingly lead them to the right path. We, who have no heaven or hell to put them in, should do exactly the same, right? However, He did have some harsh words for the Pharisees, church leaders, and other self righteous publicans. I dont' disblief the examples posted by Bob, they are scripture, but wrong for the point he is trying to make.......unless he considers himself a prophet and/or Jesus.
...and I am here and posting because......I can...simple, and to my knowledge, and the last time I checked I don't have to agree with Bob, Gailon, you, or even my dear friend(HUGS!!!) Snoopy all the time for the privilege. Any more questions?
Well, I actually have a question. What in the world does Star Wars or chess(which I don't how to play) have to do with this thread, or my repsonse? You are confused about that fact that I study my SS lesson, or attend and teach SS? Niether can happen unless I...........study! Ok, well that is two questions,......Sorry.
And please stop the personal attacks. I have not personally attacked anyone here, only addressed issues with which I agree or disagree. Plus, I am not the one.
AND TO YOU PRINCESS DI,
You sound like the theory of going to AA, I'm an alcoholic, I'm an alcoholic, and when your finally free, your still yelling I'm an alcoholic, alcoholic, alcoholic. What happened to your "free at last", "free at last". What was the good of going if you have your own will? (What was wrong with going to God instead of men and the AA Just an example of figment of speech or example) you are your own rule maker and chose your own games and still into Star Wars, games that take your time for intertainment for yourself and others. How about a game of Chess there?? Stewardship of time means nothing. lack of study it appears as soon as you post and yet you find time to SS. Confused?? Yes very confusing!! You refuse Belief of what Bob Pickle has posted in truth with Scripture. What actually are you doing here or what is your purpose???
Most on here are a protector of victims and not the crimes. And yes all are sad when one chooses not the FAITH and REPENTENANCE THAT WILL GIVE SALVATION. But I also have great sadness for what has been done to victims..probably more. Then there is the law of the land!!!!!!! Here and Eternity.
No one is going to pray TS into Eternity unless His true faith is found on his own acceptance. Every one around him has pointed to him in that direction through the Holy Spirit. Just like in the other post that I copied. It now takes "Forgivness" from God and victims to whom the damage was done. What will keep TS from going to victims?? I am wondering if that might help repair some victims? Even tho it must be a life experience that just does not go away like not overcoming being a sinner (or in other words as example (alcoholic even tho no more drink). Man, like Satan has been the convincer of victim to never be free.
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Per review of recent court filings and Bob's transcription of voicemail messages left by Dan Shelton for Pastor Dryden, it looks to me like Dan Shelton was clearly aware of the recent allegations against Tommy.
The following excerpt is copied directly from http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-171.pdf:
10. Dryden gave me recordings of two phone messages left by Danny Shelton on the Ezra Church of God’s answering machine on May 23, 2003, at 10:25 am and 11:50 am. These recordings are found in the MP3 file in the folder on Ex. H labeled in part Folder 1.
11. I have accurately transcribed the recording of the 10:25 am message as follows:
Hi Glenn, this is Danny Shelton. Uh, I was wanting to talking to you for a few minutes, if I could. I’m leaving though in about an hour. It’s 10:25 I think I’m, A.M. on Friday. I’m leaving in about an hour for Canada, uh, for tomorrow and tomorrow night, but I’ll be back, uh, over the weekend.
I want to talk to you a little bit about a letter that I found that, that didn’t have a signature but uh, anyway, they said you put it together.
And I wanted to talk to you about this bill that you’re saying been introduced that the governor’s going to sign. I’ve done homework on it. I’ve put an attorney to see about the statute of limitations, and basically [clears throat] what happens if the statutes run out it does not go back [clears throat] any, any [clears throat] excuse me, any person that’s over 28 years of age, uh, cannot the statute of limitations run out. It will not go back. If the statutes of limitations, is what I want to tell you, has run out already, which it has in this case, you can’t go back.
This is only if somebody, say it’s been 8 years, uh, since it of been happened, uh, then that will be stretched to 20 years. But if the 10 years is already passed, in this case which it has, uh, then that statute left, the new bill does not affect that.
I’ve got this through an attorney who went through not only the state’s attorney that didn’t know but the, the uh appellate courts and all the way to the state level. And I thought you should know that because for you to be putting out some of these letters that you’re putting out, you might want to be careful what, what you’re putting out or what you’re saying, and that you don’t [clears throat] bring reproach, uh, against yourself, ah, for not giving factual information. But anyway, you want to call me you can call me at, uh, ***-****. Thanks.
12. I have accurately transcribed the recording of the 11:50 am message as follows:
Hi Glenn. This is, uh, Danny Shelton again. I’m headed off uh, uh, to Canada, but I wanted to give another message.
Someone since I just left my last message brought me a letter that you have written to people in the church, uh, somewhere that you thought Tommy may be going, and you say that he has molested 6, uh, boys, uh, in that church.
And, I think you really need to be careful about that, because you’re setting yourself up for, to be liable actually, because there has been no charges, and that there’s been, there has been no, been, there has been no, uh, charges formally made, there’s never been admitted to, there’s been nothing.
I’ve talked to an attorney about it, and what you really should say is there have been some accusations against him, or allegedly he has done this. But when you set yourself in writing as you did, uhm, I just think for your own sake you need to be careful about that.
Uh, because what you say is very powerful. People look to you as you know, uh, as a pastor. So that’s one of your complaints, uh, about uh Tommy.
So you want to make sure that your own, it seems to me, that you want to make sure that ch[???] safe waters yourself, and that you’re very, very careful of what you say and not to get yourself, ah, in a position that ruins your credibility.
So I’m just saying this, I’m willing to talk to you about it some [???] talk to me. Thanks. Bye.
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I have heard these recordings of Dan's threats. Sad.
Edit note: No, Bob did not include the little smilies in his court filing. Those are a result of the forum software that automatically turns three question marks into the "huh?" smiley!!
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And how dare you review COURT FILINGS???
Oh, yeah, you are "Snoopy"!!!
What a great name for a great sleuth!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
PS: Wonder if IAN, ANYMAN, SAM et al reviewed them??? Hard to believe so many have read so much for so long and are still uneducated~~~the educational system clearly needs more money!!!
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Per review of recent court filings and Bob's transcription of voicemail messages left by Dan Shelton for Pastor Dryden, it looks to me like Dan Shelton was clearly aware of the recent allegations against Tommy.
The following excerpt is copied directly from http://www.3abnvjoy.com/mad-07cv40098/mad-07cv40098-doc-171.pdf:
10. Dryden gave me recordings of two phone messages left by Danny Shelton on the Ezra Church of God’s answering machine on May 23, 2003, at 10:25 am and 11:50 am. These recordings are found in the MP3 file in the folder on Ex. H labeled in part Folder 1.
11. I have accurately transcribed the recording of the 10:25 am message as follows:
Hi Glenn, this is Danny Shelton. Uh, I was wanting to talking to you for a few minutes, if I could. I’m leaving though in about an hour. It’s 10:25 I think I’m, A.M. on Friday. I’m leaving in about an hour for Canada, uh, for tomorrow and tomorrow night, but I’ll be back, uh, over the weekend.
I want to talk to you a little bit about a letter that I found that, that didn’t have a signature but uh, anyway, they said you put it together.
And I wanted to talk to you about this bill that you’re saying been introduced that the governor’s going to sign. I’ve done homework on it. I’ve put an attorney to see about the statute of limitations, and basically [clears throat] what happens if the statutes run out it does not go back [clears throat] any, any [clears throat] excuse me, any person that’s over 28 years of age, uh, cannot the statute of limitations run out. It will not go back. If the statutes of limitations, is what I want to tell you, has run out already, which it has in this case, you can’t go back.
This is only if somebody, say it’s been 8 years, uh, since it of been happened, uh, then that will be stretched to 20 years. But if the 10 years is already passed, in this case which it has, uh, then that statute left, the new bill does not affect that.
I’ve got this through an attorney who went through not only the state’s attorney that didn’t know but the, the uh appellate courts and all the way to the state level. And I thought you should know that because for you to be putting out some of these letters that you’re putting out, you might want to be careful what, what you’re putting out or what you’re saying, and that you don’t [clears throat] bring reproach, uh, against yourself, ah, for not giving factual information. But anyway, you want to call me you can call me at, uh, ***-****. Thanks.
12. I have accurately transcribed the recording of the 11:50 am message as follows:
Hi Glenn. This is, uh, Danny Shelton again. I’m headed off uh, uh, to Canada, but I wanted to give another message.
Someone since I just left my last message brought me a letter that you have written to people in the church, uh, somewhere that you thought Tommy may be going, and you say that he has molested 6, uh, boys, uh, in that church.
And, I think you really need to be careful about that, because you’re setting yourself up for, to be liable actually, because there has been no charges, and that there’s been, there has been no, been, there has been no, uh, charges formally made, there’s never been admitted to, there’s been nothing.
I’ve talked to an attorney about it, and what you really should say is there have been some accusations against him, or allegedly he has done this. But when you set yourself in writing as you did, uhm, I just think for your own sake you need to be careful about that.
Uh, because what you say is very powerful. People look to you as you know, uh, as a pastor. So that’s one of your complaints, uh, about uh Tommy.
So you want to make sure that your own, it seems to me, that you want to make sure that ch[???] safe waters yourself, and that you’re very, very careful of what you say and not to get yourself, ah, in a position that ruins your credibility.
So I’m just saying this, I’m willing to talk to you about it some [???] talk to me. Thanks. Bye.
**************************************
I have heard these recordings of Dan's threats. Sad.
Edit note: No, Bob did not include the little smilies in his court filing. Those are a result of the forum software that automatically turns three question marks into the "huh?" smiley!!
I should have posted this in the "Is Danny admitting to Tommy's guilt?" thread. I see that Bob has copied it to that thread - thank you!!