Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: horsethief on August 14, 2010, 03:21:11 PM
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Do we know of any? Are we concerned about it? Do we welcome illegal immigrants into our congregations? Should we report them?
What does everyone think?
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Do we know of any? Are we concerned about it? Do we welcome illegal immigrants into our congregations? Should we report them?
What does everyone think?
I don't at this time. Yes, I am concerned. I have known that to happen. Yes, because they are here against the law of the land and we are to do as far as possible for the benefit of what their breaking the law causes others. What is their problem doing things legal and by the law?>?
and just wondering if you are the -- real :horse: thief??? :ROFL:
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Good question. On the one hand there is Galatians 3:27-29 "for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
On the other hand there is Mark 12:17 "And Jesus said unto them, Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."
Paul, Peter, John and each of the disciples disobeyed the law, as did Jesus, and were subjected to the death penalty for it. Would the brethren have been justified in turning them over to the law? Was Judas justified in turning Jesus over to the law because what Jesus did was against the law? Is that even relevant in the case of illegal immigrants? I have heard that argument made. What do you think?
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This is a situation where church and state cannot be combined. or should they ever be. but soon will be.
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In some countries there is no freedom of religion or worship. Such as Cuba and North Korea. People who flee those countries and their oppressive regimes are considered refugees. Such is not the case with Mexico, Canada, Ireland or any of the Central and South American countries. Communist China doesn't seem to mind Christians now because they are good for business.
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I know and I do feel very sorry for those countries. But I believe that long ago they chose to worship other then God and when all is gone they suffer as the rest of the nations do until their final standing also. But I do believe that some will hear the Loud Cry that has swollen from Holy Spirit in the end and those who hear will and be inspired will then come forth in the end. I hope many can. It is us that had every privilige and every opportunity that will come short from living our own opinions instead of all the knowledge we have been given and thrown out because of New Age agendas.
next week I am changing direct tv station to Dishnet as I am no longer interested in trying to find anything on "Hope". I just do not know what they think they are doing with that. Guess I do, it is too liberal for me. sounds a little like California stuff. Never been there and probably never will and have no desire to go there.
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Going from Hope to 3ABN?
I know and I do feel very sorry for those countries. But I believe that long ago they chose to worship other then God and when all is gone they suffer as the rest of the nations do until their final standing also. But I do believe that some will hear the Loud Cry that has swollen from Holy Spirit in the end and those who hear will and be inspired will then come forth in the end. I hope many can. It is us that had every privilige and every opportunity that will come short from living our own opinions instead of all the knowledge we have been given and thrown out because of New Age agendas.
next week I am changing direct tv station to Dishnet as I am no longer interested in trying to find anything on "Hope". I just do not know what they think they are doing with that. Guess I do, it is too liberal for me. sounds a little like California stuff. Never been there and probably never will and have no desire to go there.
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:ROFL: They have Angel and Safe tv. I like Safe tv and the Mormons that I really like their choir and stay up on the musicians, but I do miss Lyle, Ken, and the old standbys. (laugh) No I won't be watching DS and the gang. Haven't even seen him since I think about 4 -5 years now. or the rest of that bunch. I do have where I can go to the menu and watch downloaded sometimes on my computer some of the ole standby specials. It is true I just get a little sick to even think about watching the "clan". I won't watch them because I do not want that feeling. I try not to think about it. I basically just look at the programing on computer and went their no more then 3-4 times to see a special by one of the evangelists. Murclelago, your so funny and never miss a smidge (laugh)
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Be sure to check out my favoutrite channel!!!! History International
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Do we know of any? Are we concerned about it? Do we welcome illegal immigrants into our congregations? Should we report them?
What does everyone think?
I think the first thing which should be considered is what is a Church and what is it's purpose and mission, and how does making an illegal immigrant, or any other person for that matter, feel unwelcome there help it stand true to those things? Second, if you want to witness to someone and you have them arrested and deported, how much do you think your witness is worth to them?
BTW All Seventh-day Adventist Churches as far as I know still welcome and invite even those members who have been disfellowshipped by them to continue to attend and study and worship with them. The purpose being to love those members back.
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We may welcome illegal immigrants to visit and attend our services. But if a congregation knows that they are willfully breaking the law, then the church is responsible to inform the proper authorities. In the meantime, we may help them get fed and clothed, even sheltered temporarily. But the USA's laws are not oppressive concerning this matter. It's not as though illegal immigrants are being wrongfully persecuted by our government. We should not let our congregations become safe havens for people who engage in illegal activity.
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Why not love them first? Now I know in some cases, disciplinary action must be taken, but disfellowshipping members is losing it's place as the preference for dealing with most discipliary cases.
BTW All Seventh-day Adventist Churches as far as I know still welcome and invite even those members who have been disfellowshipped by them to continue to attend and study and worship with them. The purpose being to love those members back.
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We may welcome illegal immigrants to visit and attend our services. But if a congregation knows that they are willfully breaking the law, then the church is responsible to inform the proper authorities. In the meantime, we may help them get fed and clothed, even sheltered temporarily. But the USA's laws are not oppressive concerning this matter. It's not as though illegal immigrants are being wrongfully persecuted by our government. We should not let our congregations become safe havens for people who engage in illegal activity.
I can't believe my eyes, somebody else has finally posted with some of the others on here that believe the same. including me.
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It's not a matter of disfellowshipping a member. Has nothing to do with that. It's a matter of alertness and discernment. Being aware of who is amongst us.
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It's patriotic and honorable for a US citizen to report an illegal immigrant to immigration authorities. It must be remembered that illegal entry into the USA is still a federal crime.
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All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.....
These are our brothers and sisters in Christ. And we should treat them with dignity and respect. I am a Christian first then one of Cesar's citizens....
As always, respectfully
Willow
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No one has suggested stopping them from attending church. But one must use discernment. If it comes to the leadership of the church that an individual among that congregation is willfully breaking the law, then it is up to church's leadership to respond and to inform authorities of the law that is being broken and who is involved. Again, our congregations cannot be seen as a haven for criminals.
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No one has suggested stopping them from attending church. But one must use discernment. If it comes to the leadership of the church that an individual among that congregation is willfully breaking the law, then it is up to church's leadership to respond and to inform authorities of the law that is being broken and who is involved. Again, our congregations cannot be seen as a haven for criminals.
You really don't understand do you? The time will come when you will be the supposed criminal and law breaker and then your fellow bretheren will turn you in to the authorites as you deem right. You will find out one day, by the grace of God, that you are a law breaker who God allowes to sit in church without penalty and without turning you in.
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We also have to realize that church is the best place to hide --again using the sympathies of loving christians to which we all have that weakness. We must abide by rules as the immagrants have one thing in mind. --What's best for them and not us who pay the bills and take away from our own oppressed.
and as yet we are not in taking the mark of the beast yet. It is so "justificational" of how one uses one point to make another right. Sick
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Christian clearly has the entitlement mentality. That so-called "rich" people should pay for everyone and everything and yet believes they are the focus of evil in our world today. Perfect Michael Moore disciple.
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Christian clearly has the entitlement mentality. That so-called "rich" people should pay for everyone and everything and yet believes they are the focus of evil in our world today. Perfect Michael Moore disciple.
Not true Horsethief, I simply don't believe everyone should be paying the rich. There are some foreigners that I believe are illegal in church (no actually I know she is illegal), Horsethief should I turn them in to the authority. She has five children and one of the children has not started school yet, I will act on your superior wisdom how speak you?
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I don't believe that christian has an "entitlement" mentality. We are a democracy and democracies are funded by their taxes. Our system as always been one of percentages, being those who have more, pay more. We are running into problems because everyone, especially those who have more are trying to get away with paying as little as possible. How are we supposed to pay for things to get done?
Now, the problem is also that everyone has a different idea on what that money should be paying for, and I agree we will have to do a better job of managing our countries finances. Too many selfish, heartless people on one side, too many bleeeding hearts on the other, and toooo many pet projects all around. We have got to get it together.
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Christian,
I don't know what I would do in your situation. Is there anyway you can help her get her green card without the wrong people finding out how long she has been here? Is there a lawyer you can talk to about this. I think I would try to get involved-much to my husband's dismay- he hates it when I get involved in other people's problems. We argue about that more than any thing else. But I am not one to sit back and do nothing if I can maybe do something....
I am being faced with something similar but not as legal... I deliver "meals on wheels" which is a government sponsored program. I meet many lonely,hurting,old people. Sometimes, it's emotional, other times it's physical- maybe it's both. I have offered to pray to alleve their hurts and they have said yes and when I leave they are happier. It got back to my boss and he told me, I could not pray with them any longer, because if their families complained that I was praying,then the government funding could be stopped and everyone would lose. I asked my boss, what happens if they ask for prayer? He said, I could not pray with them then, but I could tell them, I would pray during the day for them- What's the difference??? My driver is devout Christian and he says I answer to a Higher power and have to do what He says... so I guess I do what I have to do and hope for the best and keep my mouth shut. What do you guys think?
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Wow, mrst! That seems like a dilemma, but you believe in the power of prayer. Keep on believing in that power of prayer!
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Christian... That would be your decision. I am guessing that you're not a church leader, but I could be wrong. Our churches should not become havens or shelters for people who are involved in illegal activities. A congregation can help meet their basic needs, but it is the responsibility of a congregation's leadership to inform the individual who is involved in illegal activities that they can't expect the church or it's members to shield them from legal authorities. If they persist in staying with the church after that, then the church leadership should consider informing the authorities in the interest of the safety of it's members.
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I can tell you personally of an experience with this very thing. A Spanish girl married to an American that was friends with one of our daughters came and asked us if we could help with a whole family that was getting established here for just about 4-5 months. OF course we were set up with extra housing and plenty of room. 3 beautiful children we started in school and they promised to work some for their keep.
Here is what transpired and we eventually found out. They had gotten previous people to donate much going from church to church. What all of a sudden appeared one day is they brought home a car that their friend that came and took them out of town when they come back was driving. That alluded to a fact of wonderment on how they could drive if they did not have their credentials yet. The language barrare was difficult to ask questions and as we showed our licence they shook their heads and said yes, yes they had one and pulled out theirs which was a little different. Things were not adding up. We asked the friend to come back and interpret what was going on. Finally it was discovered that they had much money stashed from all contributions of people from other churches as they made the rounds Plenty of clothes and we were taking them to the grocery store buying their groceries. Discovered they went to New York on one of their trips to buy their credentials and the reason we were so interested in the car was because they lived on our property and discovered they had no insurance to drive and we told them that it was against the law to drive with no insurance and they said they did not care or would buy insurance. We told them do not drive again or they would have to leave. Then we found from another Adventist that clued us in that other people threw them out for the same reasons when they found out. They did not care and as a growing fear that as soon as an accident or whatever happened maybe a ticket for speeding the address would come back to us. As soon as they realized we were up to them they left immediately in their car leaving all their belongings that other church members gave them. Finally someone came and asked for their belonging of clothes as they were being sent back. They were picked up and the last we heard someone from a northern church told them they had to go back and they turned them in. One day we got a letter pleading with us to bring and sponsor them back that they lived the best they ever did with us. But they had one thing in mind. To get everything the best they could illegally for theirselves and we never answered them back. There were so many problems even beyond that -that we discovered. They could chance the illegal but we sure would not in our farm and business. So again the experience of giving sympathies to wrong situations is a great big factor with Adventists or anyone Christian cause sympathy is the the factor for them. They really lived with the feeling that everyone should "spread the wealth to them". and the church did and so did we even to their asking for new furniture as ours was used The furniture they could not take back so we then donated to community service. So a woman with 5 children is not the responsibility for the taking away from church priority of their own first to aid and abetting illegal opportunist. We have to learn to discern about our sympathies.
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Horsethief, I have to tell you that you make a whole lot of sense. This atually was covered in last weeks SS lesson regarding respecting the leaders and law of the land. We always have to do the right thing, and trust God that all will work out for the good.
Christian... That would be your decision. I am guessing that you're not a church leader, but I could be wrong. Our churches should not become havens or shelters for people who are involved in illegal activities. A congregation can help meet their basic needs, but it is the responsibility of a congregation's leadership to inform the individual who is involved in illegal activities that they can't expect the church or it's members to shield them from legal authorities. If they persist in staying with the church after that, then the church leadership should consider informing the authorities in the interest of the safety of it's members.
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I met and dated a young lady from Brazil a few years ago. We hit it off real well too. I asked her what her status was in the USA? She explained how she was here on a Visa. I accepted that. Come to find out, her visa had expired and after a few more explanations, I found out she was here illegally. She explained that she was sure that God didn't mind this because her intentions were good, etc. I told her that I disagreed with her. That the laws that the USA has concerning immigration are not repressive and if her and I were on our way to becoming a permanent couple, then we needed to abide by the law. That would mean her returning to Brazil, then getting engaged, then her returning as my fiance or bride, legally. Well, she wouldn't go back to Brazil and I didn't feel right about her breaking the law. Things dissolved after that.
She had that entitled mentality though.That the hard work and success of another person was something she deserved and was entitled to...
It don't work that way
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In some countries there is no freedom of religion or worship. Such as Cuba and North Korea. People who flee those countries and their oppressive regimes are considered refugees. Such is not the case with Mexico, Canada, Ireland or any of the Central and South American countries. Communist China doesn't seem to mind Christians now because they are good for business.
I will respectfully disagree with the premise that "Freedom of Religion" in Mexico, Canada, Ireland and Central & South America translates into "religious tolerance", particularly at bar. Religious Liberty and other departments at the GC have their hands full of issues that require intervention, even here in the United States of America. And, one can safely assume that since REAL adventists oppose joining unions, and we know that unions will continue to be a growing problem as eschatology moves forward, not to mention the Sunday Laws and a host of other laws that will destroy the "wall of seperation" that tolerance will quickly erode in the United States. It will not matter whether you or your brethren are legal or illegal, you will face the same challenges ahead, whether here, Mexico of Cuba. And believe me, China is hardly tolerant. Try to share the Desire of Ages or a King James Version of the Bible with a Government official and just see how long your visa remains active.
Have you planned your retreat yet for the Time of trouble such as never has been? Or picked a cave? Or are you planning to survive the holocaust ahead with "compromise"? Faith in a time of crisis is already exercised and practiced over and over again and there will be no room for compromise, creaping or otherwise!!!
Practice your Faith NOW while there remains what little tolerance there is or get ready for a very hot ending.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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We all know that there are a lot of countries and cultures where the word "church" means none other than catholic and those who choose not to worship like everyone else are looked upon or treated with disdain. However, that does not make it acceptable for a person who is experiencing this in their country to illegally enter the USA. The USA has always encouraged legal immigration.
Illegal immigration into the USA is a crime. The SDA church and it's members have a duty to our government to point out crimes of this nature.
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We all know that there are a lot of countries and cultures where the word "church" means none other than catholic and those who choose not to worship like everyone else are looked upon or treated with disdain. However, that does not make it acceptable for a person who is experiencing this in their country to illegally enter the USA. The USA has always encouraged legal immigration.
Illegal immigration into the USA is a crime. The SDA church and it's members have a duty to our government to point out crimes of this nature.
I do not know what horse ranch you have been hiding on, but you clearly are not aware that since the Eisenhower years (yes, he was the last US Pres to conduct a man-hunt and send millions of illegals back to their homeland), we have literally turned a blind eye to illegal immigration, starting with the Irish and a number of eastern european nations.
Following the American Empire’s horrendous mess in Southeast Asia we left the door open to millions of “refugees” fleeing the march of nationalism, we called it “communism”, in Southeast Asia from Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and even Thailand.
Then we left the door open to South and Central America for years as we fought "communism" in all it's mystical forms. Even the last great "purported" conservative, Ronald Reagan, granted amnesty and then left the door wide open for another "rush" of illegal immigration in an effort to keep labor costs low and inflation in check, while he ran record budget deficits to keep taxes low and pass along the bill and all the problems for the next generation (Yup that is us!!!). And remember, he was the first administration to formalize an unholy relationship with the Vatican with an Ambassadorial post; a Vatican that was quite influential in developing and maintaining an open immigration door for the poor underprivileged of the central American countries, and incidentally to move the Catholic faith closer to a majority.
And don’t forget that as far back as Carter we opened the door to the millions of middle eastern immigrants, mostly of the wealthier class, as the refugees ran from a new international threat to the American Empire now defined as radical islamists in Iran, Lebanon, Afganistan, Pakistan and a host of other Muslim groups.
I would be very careful to point the finger at “illegal immigration” as the vast majority of the current generation’s roots are “immigrants” and mostly “illegal”, sometimes at a time when no border patrol reigned and people moved back and forth with impunity. My own paternal great great great grandparents simply crossed the border from Quebec, Canada and settled in Maine, and some served in the 25th Maine…don’t ask me if they voted as I would have no idea. My maternal grandparents I have come to conclude did similarly in the turn of the century (20th, that is). And they were all welcome sources of labor in lumbering and fishing, risky but financially rewarding compared to poverty.
I can recall spending some time in Portland Oregon many years ago and having the locals make it clear that they would prefer to close the door to Oregonian immigration. It is typical for those on the inside of a very good thing to try to close the door to others as a form of self preservation. Bad News, it rarely works and by the time they try to close the door the economy has been “polluted” with intruders of an “undesireable” origin based upon a home spun prejudicial conclusion from an ill wind philosophy of:
“WHAT IS MINE, IS MINE, AND I WILL NOT SHARE IT”!
An unacceptable Christian philosophy…REMEMBER THE PHILOSOPHY OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN? Oh, it does not apply here??? Just where does it apply? What are your roots? Should you turn in your horse thieving grand-parents and pack up your duds and head back to your roots??? Would be the right thing to do, right?
Now, let’s talk about this “crime” you refer to? Is it a felony? A Misdemeanor? And what is the remedy at law? Your research will surprise you… on the other hand, horse thievery is a “hanging offense”, yes, that is right, CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. And if caught, due process was the nearest tree, a rope, and slapping the stolen horse on the [censored] leaving the “rider” hanging by the neck until dead…and more often than not was left as a “warning” to others with a note on the chest simply inscribed “HORSE THEIF”, no other name. I would prefer the fate of an Illegal anyday; detention in a Federal Facility, opportunity for a hearing, and if you lose, a one way ticket back to the homeland, so you can circle around and walk back across the border for another stint as something just short of “slave labor”!!!
The reason Government does not “enforce” immigration is very self serving…how many utilize illegals to clean their homes, rake their yards, weed their gardens, build those great rock walls, install luxuries such as granite counter-tops, lay their floors, frame their homes, repair their roofs and build their three car garages and chauffeur their cars…only when the economy turns do they become an “Unacceptable Burden” and should be sent home so we can have “their” jobs we did not want until economic disaster required that we try to preserve these jobs for our own…but most Americans will sit out the economy on “unemployment” while the “illegal immigrant”, unqualified for Unemployment Benefits, struggles on, in relative poverty, but struggles on - none the less - against adversity, something we have ZERO fortitude for.
Like it or not, just as surely as most of today’s mansions are tomorrows mansion conversions to affordable multi-families, today’s immigrants will be tomorrows “sweat-hogs” of American society taking care of, and funding your horse thieving old age, if the Lord allows us to overflow our cup that long. So, learn to love them, tolerate them and be thank-full you will have the opportunity to “Share your FAITH” with them, without going to a foreign land to do so and risk illness, life threatening mobs and even stoning by a bunch of islamists.
So, adopt the much more acceptable philosophy of “The Good Samaritan: “what is mine is yours and I am going to share it”. Those “illegals” who accept your Christianity may well be sharing a cave with you some day singing praises to the Lord together…Those “illegals” who reject your message may well be a part of the great mob determined to find you and kill you in “the day of the Lord”…feel sorry for them and pray that you be not a part of it, a tragedy indeed!!!
Therefore: BE A GOOD SAMARITAN!!! And ask instead,” what can I do to help you?” lest you hear the Lamb declare “I knew you not”.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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you sure are a self-righteous person Gailon... Just because someone comments on events and has a different slant than you have does not mean that they have rejected Jesus...
But the superiority of your opinion which you back up with the spirit of prophecy certainly makes me a lukewarm soul...
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Unfortunately, we are all "Laodicean" and would do well to "Heat up" lest we suffer the consequence of Laodiceanism - "I will spew thee out of My Mouth...." not a fate any Seventh-day Adventist looks forward to.
As to the "self righteous" concern, you are free to see it and describe as you see it. I am simply giving the history and trust that this alternative view, based upon a historical record, provides a different view, but most importantly, to call for a bit of
"tolerance" for those you reference as 'Illegal Immigrants".
You accuse me of intolerance in a previous post and I will charge your position as being intolerant...I would not only call for
"tolerance" but to call for us all to reach out to the "illegal immigrant" brethren and get their perspective in a christian tradition passed to us in the history of the "Good Samaritan".
Someday, this world will view all REAL Seventh-day Adventists as Illegal Immigrants and will impose a "Death Decree". That will be the epitome of intolerance and a blatant violation of the right of conscience that is fundemental to Christianity...and will be a real Test of Faith for each of us as the events move in that direction, but rest assured we are moving in that direction.
May we all be a part of the rescue effort and get to go HOME.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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To this day, the laws of the USA are not repressive when it comes to border enforcement. SDA congregations cannot be seen as harbors of safety for people who violate our nation's laws. If we encounter illegal immigrants desiring food and drink, then provide if you can. But to shield them from justice, I just can't buy that.
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"harbors of safety" is hardly an appropriate term. I am not aware the Seventh-day Adventist Church, it's boards, pastors or conference officers offer a "harbor of safety" but rather simply offer a tabernacle of worship to which all are welcome and should hear a clear message that calls them to an active realtionship with Christ as the way to acheive Eternal Life.
However, horsethief, the bible does give YOU very specific directions as to how to deal with your concerns...It is found in Matthew 18.
It does not give YOU authority to pursue civil authority as the remedy for your concern, particularly when you have not pursued the God Given remedy of Matthew 18 to deal with open sin in the congregation.
I will be awaiting your report back from your Matthew 18 efforts and my experience is that in many cases the offending party has been pursuaded to correct their ways. It does not take much for an "illegal alien" to open a case file to seek asylum or some other process to achieve a "green card" status and you and your congregation should consider sponsoring the party to make them legal. It will give you a real opportunity to work with the errant member and assist them in their Christian walk.
I did have one case where myself and a brother in the Faith faced down an illegal brother and he opted to get on a jet plane the next day back to the Domican Republic and is now back and legal and is an active member of the SDA congregation.
I challenge you to exercise Matthew 18, a foundation of your Faith and watch the Lord work His purpose for that christian brother or sister's walk with Him. And build your own Faith in God's purpose for your life.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Well, now this is quite interesting. I do not put church and state together just yet.
We have the superior laws of God and we have the laws of the land. We have different eras of immigrants when America was new and a place then for freedom. They worked hard to be Americans including grandparents, parents and mine too. They went by the rules. Others don't. That does not make it right because God does not 2 face it. We can either do it by the rules of the land or illegal. The rules of the land should support God's value of "charity" begins at home. In this corrupted gov. that has grown with to now an era of "share the wealth" and finish taking what the backbone has worked for. I am not calling this being a Good Samaritan to druggies, killers, and thievery. In the heartland there are still some that do their own work and still believe the old way. In fact many still do as the tea party expands.
Each political agenda used what they could for the votes. and that does not make it right to let it slide by just because it was used for gain. As far as the Reagan's doing well for America, they also consulted the mediums each morning. So all the incidents of what was used for political purposes still does not make it right when you have a nation brought together under God's direction and now have a nation coming together under the Trojan Horse. A new era, a new problem, and a whole different American ballgame as in previous our government has given more then any other nation as a Good Samaritan. A true Christian will be a true Christian in any land that he is born. There is only one thing they want and that is to take and while they are in the field "slaving" for the "American" so called act. They are undermining the American dollar for their welfare and upkeep and sending their money back to home.
It is not the fault of America that their country and their people do not put God first. So this is my stance of which does not change one iota of anyone else's belief but it sure is raising the "Eagle in America of us old timers". Why should we not protect our boarder and our people??? For a while the just will suffer with the unjust.
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: this is done with his picture, motorcyle, and documents.
Subject: this is so wrong!!!
Born and Raised…this is so wrong!!!
My name is d'Lynn. I'm a disabled Vietnam vet. I don't look too bad for a beat-up old ****, do I? And that's my ride. She's looking pretty good also, especially when you consider that she'll turn twenty this summer. That's right, it's a 1990 with a 1990 sidecar. I can't ride a solo bike, ergo the sidecar rig. It's my sole means of transportation - rain or shine, snow or wind, and this summer also marks a milestone in both of our lives, as I will finally be able to pay her off. Twenty years old? What? Why did it take so long? You weren't paying attention, were you? It's right at the beginning of this paragraph.
I am a disabled vet, which means I receive a veterans administration disability pension, which also means "I'm broke!" Just one step ahead of being homeless every month, and that's not an idle statement or an "Oh, woe is me" dire complaint. There’s a point to this, so hang in there a minute or two and read on.
There's a 25-year-old illegal immigrant woman living in Florida , with eight kids. Yes, eight "anchor babies" and she receives just shy of $1,500 per month per kid, plus medical, plus food stamps.
Oh, wait. I've been informed that I shouldn't call them Food Stamps anymore. That's not PC. It's all called “Social Assistance” now. You do the math on that yourself. I'd say that she was schooled early in how to make it in the system. Twenty-five years old, eight kids . . . . . yep, she started early.
You can whip out the calculator if you want, but this woman, who never has paid a dime in taxes of any kind, (and still doesn't – she's 'illegal,' remember?) is here in this country illegally. She hasn’t paid out one cent in medical for all the “anchor babies,” makes more in one month, legally, than I receive in over a year and a half in disability payments and I can't even get food stamps! Oops, I mean “Social Assistance.”
Technically I am eligible for “Social Assistance.” I was told it would be a walk through – a gimme – being disabled. No problem, and in the very next breath I was also informed that under the law the amount I received in “Social Assistance” would be deducted from my disability pension.
Let's say I take a great photograph. It was just luck, a one of a kind accident, in the right place at the right time shot. My local newspaper offers me fifty bucks to use the photo in a featured story. (I live in a small town and fifty bucks is all they could afford.) I have to report that fifty dollars to the VA as earned income, which will immediately be deducted from my next month’s disability check. If I don't report it I’m in violation of federal law and technically they can stop my disability pension and prosecute me under a federal felony. Pretty cool, eh? For fifty bucks.
I see no point in dealing with two federal bureaucracies, so I don't bother. What's the point?
She's here illegally and with just one kid would make over twice what I receive per month. She has eight and she’s not a stand-out case. She’s not alone. That's the way the system works. Millions of illegal immigrants know this, know how the system works and know how to use it. (Haven't you seen the pamphlet? It's handed out all along our borders, "The Illegal Immigrants' Guide to Keeping America Just The Way It Is.") and that's just the way it works.
Did you know that the federal government provides a “refugee” in this country with a monthly “stipend” of $1,890, plus $580 a month in “Social Assistance?” That’s $2,470 a month, tax-free. That's two and a half times what I’m allowed to receive as a disabled vet. And just what did they do to earn this? All you have to do is show up on our collective doorstep, raise your right hand and swear that you're a refugee and, bingo, receive $30,000 a year, tax-free. That's more than someone making $15 an hour, and they have to pay taxes to boot!
Now, in defense of the Veterans Administration, they are doing what they can with what they've got. This is precious little compared to what they should have to get the job done. At least this country has a VA.
It's the Senate that keeps passing laws, rules and guidelines, cutting their budget, denying requests for more staff and computer systems to handle the massive work flow. Their hands are tied by the very government that's supposed to give them what they need to get the job done, by the government you voted into office. Don't scream at the VA. I have. It's misguided anger.
The point to this “story?” Just why are you paying such high taxes to support this incredibly screwed-up government? Why? And I’m not proposing you stop paying your taxes. That's wrong. There are good programs and reasons to pay your taxes and support our government.
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Sorry for the dublication of the above, thought something was wrong with my computer and nothing would happen so I shut it down and started again. and now if moderator would just erase if possible the first one would appreciate it very much. Thanks
Done :)
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And you assert that TEA Party fundementalism is now about immigration? Is that for or against?
I seem to recall it is about excessive taxes, excessive government and excessive regulation.
Now, let's go back to that ludicrous parody by the purported
"disabled veteran". First, there are virtually hundreds of veterans centers throughout the country that offer excellent housing options and are funded by "grants" from tax funded bureaucracy. In fact they do usually qualify for assistance as well, depending upon the percentage of disability and the monthly income.
I will go much further and challenge his assumptions regarding the Aid to Families with Dependent Children...NO-ONE ANYWHERE receives anywhere near the dollars the "disabled vet" berates with some degree of envy...and does he feel the same way about all the "white trash", "trailer trash", "getto trash" and other "NATURAL BORN AMERICANS" that have found it necessary to SURVIVE on the sums our government has elected to make available to those less fortunate than ourselves in an agronomy degraded into a “rust belt” post industrial society moved by the captains of industry and contributors to both parties to the very lands so many immigrants come from and stolen from that area that you claim to be the “heart land” that has a heart that barely beats?
Now, let's discuss why "GOVERNMENT" stepped in to do what the CHURCH should have done....yes, Government...and that happened because Churches elected to vacate their God given purpose and left it to a vast, inefficient and centralized Federal Government. Local churches failed and Centralized Government took up the cause…not for illegals, but for AMERICANS!!! But inefficiency is capable of serious errors.
Now, I will tell you that I have met hundreds of illegals and they are all gainfully employed or self-employed and eagerly await green cards and the path to citizenship. It is true that some very bad eggs have taken advantage of the border gaps, and they need to be exterminated. However, the broad sweep of venom for all illegals is not justified and if you seek to have the illegals that share your pews to reform, I will assert that Matthew 18 is the PROPER CHRISTAIN RESPONSE, regardless of, and in spite of, your TEA Party affiliation.
I will warn that when TEA philosophy sweeps aside the biblical process for church discipline, spiritual anarchy will reign. Seen enough of that and I implore you to reach back to the biblical fundamentals, put aside your bitterness and restore the Bible as the basis for your life in the church. We are heading there with or without you.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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WELL SAID GAILON... I regret thinking and stating before that you were belting me with the red books... You got an adherent now...
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First of all I am not a member of Tea Party but thinking about it, But do watch what they stand for. realizing the outcome is not yet known and will not vote until weighing much. I feel a true American that cares about some sort of possible correct society to live in should be responsible to ones own community, state or nation. We have to live it. No, I probably put my statement into wrong place for "Immigration" as I know tea party are doing just the reasons you state but I have heard them comment on the "boarders" being closed and giving our people a break for their farms, land takeover and killing of certain publicised individuals that own their farms along the boarder. Why should they have to be doing this? Can't believe America is letting it go this far.
About the veteran, I take it his wounds were well taken care of but the poor man would like to live like any man does, and he was not taking away from the help he had but he is really showing that he does not have all the extra cash and convenience of a car, house as the "immigrant" has for his service, for his loss of human function. No, he does not want to live in quarters provided as most men with pride like to have. I am looking at the funds given to wrong situations when this man gave all he did for my keeping of "freedom".
Yes, the government stepped in and forces all to pay, rich, poor and middle class. Cause that is where the money comes from for these organizations. Not on individual volunteering for individual judgement on the plan of " Ones own Salvation" that God will make his own Judgements on. So this is where the responsibility comes in of trying to vote the best course matching up the best you can on God's intentions. Previously is why I have always been a Republican because of the Plan of Religious views of the way God intended to be.
We have to pay to Cesar (forced), pay 10 percent ( own choice), give offerings (own choice), and help our brother, as a brother or sister in Christ (own choice). God says the poor will be with us always, and some trying to take that "Plan" away while it was put here for God's reasoning for individual judgement of individuals or as a whole, (churches). Look at what forced giving has created by corrupt politicians.
I am well aware of Mathew 18. and I am well aware of what the churches have now done with honest money. A lot pocketed and misuse and has practically destroyed any stability for us as you well know with documents of details provided here and elsewhere. We also have had the church money seekers and their folly which finally led gov, and organizations take everything we owned. True we are somewhat like the veteran now as all our work and efforts while helping others is in someone Else's pocket now while the Church, State and Federal had their day.
Now I guess my question would be how does the term or verse go along with the heavenly plan when it says that the right way will be in heaven and should be on earth." One man does not work and another eat"? Somehow I cannot use Mathew 18 for all over the line meanings. I think then you would have to open the flood gates for serial killers, lunatics of evil, because it says all, (does that mean only coming in the name of Jesus?) Then of course make TS a very comfortable man. I am a reasonable person, compassionate and sympathy has destroyed us for wrong causes.
I just do not have compassion for the American that put himself into his own folly for to take from others hard work that supports their families, helps others and does the best he can. He is doing the right plan. The others are not and taking what they can.
True there are victims of "non" self distruction that need help. I believe the Veterans is a good thing. I believe each individual has to use the best discernment they can for the best knowledge of Scripture they have. There are lines to be drawn for all reasonable handouts given at the expense of others good or evil in forceful manner. Never was Jesus forceful in anything. A good queston to wonder about is "why did God choose to leave the poor with us always and then say "He wanted all to prosper". Hmmm, is that a fine line discernment? or did God leave the poor with us always because of unequal minds of "choice of doing good or evil"? knowing it would make them poor and then watch the "who" on individual basis would give? or did he plan on the plan of "forced" giving for judgement? Maybe I am not writing to make my self clear enough as that is sometimes a problem with me. Sometimes the words don't come easy for me. But I do think in depth of all I can gather. Weighing and weighing
We cannot know the motive of "Immigrants" but sure can tell the "actions" as they raise their flag on American soil and spiel out their ungodly vices. via Mexico by all the other isms too fleeing to safe harbor or terrorism through the sympathy of churches.
Mathew 18 is not a meaning of "harboring" criminals of the law of the land. I must say I know exactly where you are coming from and can't say it is wrong in the right context. We are in really bad times now. It is getting harder and harder to discern and one now must be led by Holy Spirit to do right thing and keep on right path including me. That is why I really like the input on here to have all thoughts weighed out. We have not been able to go to church for almost 2 years now because of circumstances and here seems to be an only outlet for other Adventist's talk. Computer, TV news and a few neighbors is all we have left.
added thought: One of the most "forceful" thought of actions of Jesus was to obey the laws of the land and to chase the evil out of the temple with a whip.
Immagration is still illigal and because churches have not done what they should have been doing does not extend rights of forgien countries to ursurp the goodness of American people, total socities and states. God says he even knows when the sparrows fall and he will take care of all and provide the needs of all but he does not say it has to be done illigally.
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I trust you would understand that Matthew 18 is the prescription for "church" discipline, as in matters of concern between the brethren and the sisters of Faith.
I will point out that when it comes to the border I have a very militaristic philosophy...if one crosses the 'border' at any point other than an authorized crossing with full permission of the border patrol, then THEY ARE INVADERS. INVADERS SHOULD BE TAKEN AS PRISONERS OF WAR OF DESTROYED AS ENEMY COMBATANTS.
AND INVADERS WITH DRUGS SHOULD BE BURIED WITH THEM.
If our troops had the authority to shoot to kill "INVADERS" then the invasion would stop.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon,
I agree that the immigrants comming legally,should be allowed to get the green cards- only I think the government is too slow in granting them.
As for the veterans- let me tell about the process- it is trully a NIGHTMARE. They take so long, demand so much paperwork and proof, that many veterans simply give up and don't continue to try to get their benifits. I know.. It took my husband 2 years and we had every single paper from Viet Nam and we were lucky. We even had daily fight reports and injury reports from the day he was wounded. The VA wants the paperwork handed to them, so they don't have to do anything, but look at it. Then it sits on someone's desk until they find the time or someone happens to call- like a Senator or Congressman and then maybe they will look at it and send it to someone elses desk for the next step. It one thing is NOT there, back it comes to you. Any away it goes again.... The 1st response takes about 6 months. It IS NOT FAIR... There is no temporary housing... Social Security Disablity is even worse.. It's a joke- they act like it is coming out of their own pockets. Even if you have every single piece of paper filed out for them and have every paper for them- they don't believe you are disabled. Usually it takes a lawyer, unless you are missing an arm, a leg or an eye or something like that.
As for the system- in WV, where I lived before- the 27 yr old across the street had worked for 1 month- didn't like it and quit. He had a wife who had worked for awhile and she quit- They moved back in with Dad and Mom with their 2 kids. Because they had 2 kids- they recieved $600 per month in SSI and $600 per month in Food Stamps. He worked on the side mowing yards or shoveling snow. When the mines were hiring and paying $17 per hour- my husband suggested to his dad, that he should go and get a job and his dad, said"Why?, he was making more money this way, and he could work when he wanted to." His father, by the way, is on Social Security Disabilty and the Mom is the only one who works and has 2 jobs. GREAT SYSTEM, isn't it??
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SSI? Who was injured beyond the ability to work? $600 ain't much, though. They would be in trouble in CA.
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In WV, it's plenty.. unless you spend it on lobster like he did one month- but remember he is living rent free with his dad and mom...doesn't smoke or drink. No one is disabled- he just has 2 kids, that's how he gets the $600 a month..... doesn't have to be disabled....He knows how to work the system in WV
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Here is an example of how difficult it is to keep everyone happy...on the one hand you complain that it is too difficult and takes months of waiting for someone to get VA Benefits and SSDI...on the other you complain it is TOO EASY for a a system abuser to get SSI and AFDC or General Assistance...so, do we want to set the bar high or low? In other words, do we want far more abuse or do we want to tighten standards and deprive more people of benefits?
I am of the growing opinion that to a large degree centralization is the key to the dilemma. In our effort to get national equanimity in government benefits distribution we have ceded that authority further and further from the beneficiary. We need to reverse centralization and as in move back to the concept of "localization" of services and benefits by local panels and local citizens. They will argue it is costly but would pay huge dividends.
In almost every governmental intervention whether it be education, banking, health, education, welfare and a host of other processes, if you compare the increasing inefficiencies and poor results from operations, there is usually a more direct relationship with centralization and growing inefficiencies and increases in fraud and other corruption. The more centralization, the bigger the numbers and the more temptation to fill ones pocket and the less likely anyone will catch it.
I could go on with a diatribe...education being an example. The further we get from neighborhood schools and the more centralized education becomes, the less bang we get for the buck. And the less educated the masses of students are!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon,
Localization is great, as long as the records can be sent to centralized center or 2 centers, just in case someone moves and the records can be accessed somewhere else. The Military has long held records in a centralized center, only one problem,when there was a fire, millions of military and VA records were lost.... Hundreds of thousands of Veterans have been unable to get their benifits, because of that fire. Most people do not keep a good record of their health records, relying on doctors or hospitals to keep them.
As far as education, you are preaching to the Choir... The money for education is Not getting where it needs to be and it MAKES ME MAD!! Children are suffering because of it.
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Still, every illegal immigrant in the USA is a criminal. If illegal immigrants are trying to use SDA congregations to find employment or refuge from deportation, then they need to be told that the SDA church is a law-abiding institution and that if they persist, then immigration authorities will be notified.
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I know that's right Horsethief! And if they don't believe you, tell 'em to ask Lake Region Conference.
Still, every illegal immigrant in the USA is a criminal. If illegal immigrants are trying to use SDA congregations to find employment or refuge from deportation, then they need to be told that the SDA church is a law-abiding institution and that if they persist, then immigration authorities will be notified.