Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Jise on December 26, 2010, 12:14:55 AM
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What strikes me is that while Ted Wilson likes to paint himself as the guardian of true Christian values - he comes across as an agent of compromise and he presents the Adventist Church as if it is laudably more about politics than it is about genuine Christianity. ence, this focus within the Church with rubbishing "progressivism" and equating conservatism to christianity. What I get from his inaugural speech - is that if one embraces a crude, evil conservatism, then one will embraced by Ted Wilson and the church hierarcy. One gets from his speech -that honest persons who observe the 10 commandments but sing in a gospel choir are more evil than a dishonest conservative Adventist who has exploited women, bore false witness against others, and committed fornication. What is interesting is how merely mere forms of worship associated with certain racial groups have been embraced as indexes of christianity above and beyond the genuineness of one's walk with faith and observance of the 10 commandments.
The bible is clear that bearing false witness, fornication, etc. are unchristian. The bible is not as clear that drumming or clapping in the Church are unchristian. Yet this inversion of what is important in the Church really shows me how Ted Wilson and his conservatism are agents of compromise in the Christian Church. Ted Wilson is so bent portraying genuine christians outside of the adventist faith who are honest, and geniune in their faith as more threats to christianity than dishonest, conservative adventists who exploit others, bear false witness against others etc, are fornicators, etc..
What is also very interesting is how Ted Wilson is determined to and equate Christianity with secular labels - particularly "conservatism" - when conservatism since the founding of this country has been inextricably linked with sexual exploitation, and rape of women in the USA, racial injustice, racial killings and bigotry. What is also very interesting is how Ted Wilson and his supporters could rubbish progressivism when progressivism - at least the good strains of it - have been concerned with combatting racial injustice.
This shows me that Ted Wilson and his supporters - in the Church really are the agents of compromise and backsliding in the Church.
Ted Wilson wants us to think that conservatism is automatically equated with morality -and purity - when this is often times the opposite. It is no coincidence, that many of the "conservative" persons being won to the Adventist Faith - are no more honest, or "purer" than the general population - and their conservatism seems to be defined by the injustices and ethnic slurs that they wield, rather than by the 10 commandments that they follow. With Adventism being such an insular proposition in the North American context - it is a wonder that Ted Wilson could adopt arrogance vis a vis other denominations in North America. Where in the bible does it say, that in order to be a Christian - and sabbatarian - that one MUST be an Adventist and agree with the General Conference Structure with Ted Wilson at the helm. There are many sabbath keeping Christians who view the General Conference structure and hierarchy as an unbiblical man-made hierarchy that is akin to a kind of slavery. Invariably - to embrace Ted Wilson's dogma is to embrace a kind of moral compromise. What I get from his inaugural speech is that Ted Wilson embraces "politics" and that Adventism to a certain extent is all about "politics" rather than Christianity - and it is "conservative political compromise" at the expense of progressive christian morality and justice. Whomever embraces "secular" political conservatism that is compromised because of its support for social and racial injustice, exploitation of women, etc. - will be especially promoted within the SDA Church. This is what I get from Ted Wilson's inaugural.
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Jise--welcome to Adventtalk.
I feel that you have made a sharp attack on the head of the SDA church, even though some may agree at least partially with what you say.
I have younger members of my family who believe that progressive SDA churches are a means of combatting long-held attitudes within local congregations that have literally forced new members out.
For myself, I have wondered how to correlate the laissez-faire approach of the progressives with traditional SDA church standards.
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Jise--welcome to Adventtalk.
I feel that you have made a sharp attack on the head of the SDA church, even though some may agree at least partially with what you say.
I have younger members of my family who believe that progressive SDA churches are a means of combatting long-held attitudes within local congregations that have literally forced new members out.
For myself, I have wondered how to correlate the laissez-faire approach of the progressives with traditional SDA church standards.
Thank you - I think your last question may be indicative of the fact that you may be more keen on playing politics rather than advocating for the christian and biblical truth.
Additionally, "church standards" are not necessarily the same as biblical standards.
You don't have any proof that progressiveness is laizze fair whereas conservativism is not. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that conservatism is laizze faire with christian doctrine - and this is why I wrote.
It is quite unfortunate that one would have us believe that in order to be christian and to have standards -that one must embrace conservatism which is a morally compromised secular structure which tolerates lack of christian standards with regards to honesty, economic justice, racial justice, etc.
Progressives fight for these things - this is why it's interesting that you've erected a campaign against persons who are on the right side of christian justice. Conservatism has been an instrument of an introduction of apostasy and moral compromise into the Church.
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Wow, and I thought I was liberal. LOL!! Welcome, Jise.
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Wow, and I thought I was liberal. LOL!! Welcome, Jise.
Thanks - I'm just amazed at how the SDA Church is fixated on political labels.
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Well, they maybe "political" labels, becauthe that is the best terms we have at present. However when Christ came to earth His "followers" had to leave the established church to follow His teachings because the church had waundered so far from what God intended it to be. Those followers of Christ ceased to be "named" Jews(even though it was known that most were Jewish in birth and culture), and they were called "christians" to distinguish them from the established church. So we are in good company, Jise. Don't worry aabout the labels..............Spiritual things are spiritually discerened", and not, they give it a label. LOL!!!
Thanks - I'm just amazed at how the SDA Church is fixated on political labels.
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Well, they maybe "political" labels, becauthe that is the best terms we have at present. However when Christ came to earth His "followers" had to leave the established church to follow His teachings because the church had waundered so far from what God intended it to be. Those followers of Christ ceased to be "named" Jews(even though it was known that most were Jewish in birth and culture), and they were called "christians" to distinguish them from the established church. So we are in good company, Jise. Don't worry aabout the labels..............Spiritual things are spiritually discerened", and not, they give it a label. LOL!!!
Thanks - I'm just amazed at how the SDA Church is fixated on political labels.
Thank you, PrincessDi
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You attack is another ad hominem attack against the Heirarchy of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist’s, with the ad nauseum contention that the “progressive solution” is somehow the direction the Hierarchy should endorse while abandoning it’s “conservativism” that represents the traditional standards of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
I will argue that neither track will bring us to that “primitive godliness” that will bring the true reformation and the “loud cry” message that will bring this earth’s history to a sure completion.
I noticed that Glenn Beck has developed a “conservative” mantra that declares that it was progressive ideas and legislation that has effectively “abrogated the constitution”, virtually destroyed the “Republic” that was born just two hundred years ago and resulted in abandoning the principles that made this nation great in an age long ago and far away. America’s “greatest generation” will never be replicated and we are now an “Empire of Debt”.
The Seventh-day Adventist church has moved in a similar direction in the hands of “progressives”. Our institutions are largely “leveraged” despite the clear direction at the turn of the 20th Century to abandon and avoid debt at all cost by the old grey haired lady of the prophetic gift.
Progressives would have us abandon Seventh-day Adventist theology to allow for “progressive” ideas that conform with “mainstream” views of a majority of the theologic and even atheistic scientific communities that would most certainly lead us into the confusion of “Babylon” and a serious apostacy of Faith.
On the other hand, Conservatives have perpetuated a “spiritless” theology that while maintaining a marginal “purity of the faith” reminiscent of the very papacy we felt we were “protesting” against, has lost it’s most prominent call to duty as “evangelism” is “purchased” and not “practiced”!!!
A church that was once known for it’s generosity and enthustiastic community services, ingathering and medical advances is now seen as a “cult” of unfriendly “Adventists” that keep the Jewish Sabbath. A 90 year old community services director once summed it up most precisely “we’re dead but we’re not buried!!!”. A local “elder” and formerly a director of Literature Evangelists told me just this very week-end of inviting a family he has studied with for several months to church for the Christmas Breakfast and program. He made a point of letting the church “pastor” they were coming and they received a less than “warm welcome”…the “pastor” never so much as greeted them, let alone invited them back and the rest of this church family clearly gave little concern for their “new guests” in the revelry of this special Sabbath Program. The “guests” are victims of a lay-off and could ill afford “Christmas” so a small group worked to get at least some presents to them. The “community services” director made it clear there was little the church could do to help. A call to “Toys for tots” revealed we needed to have our church pastor call…a rejected notion by the pastor and his staff.
And so we come to the conclusion that our religion is a dry as the bones in the hills of Gilboa and we have indeed reached a the point in our Laodicean experience where we must worry that we are about to be “spewed out of my mouth” while the Lord prepares to build a “Remnant Church”. A clear difference between Laodicea and the Remnant will be that all consuming desire to save souls for the kingdom.
There are some who would argue that 3ABN, Amazing Facts, It is Written, et al, are the “modern” evangelism. I fear that this is not the picture the Old Grey Haired Lady saw as she looked forward to the end of time. And it is illogical to assume that these “licensed” entities will play a serious effort as we near the final events. In fact, some may have less than an honest desire and have simply taken advantage of the SDA propensity to support any mass media evangelism program as God’s Annointed to achieve economic security at the expense of the faithful rather than a serious desire for the savings of souls.
So, in summary, neither progressivism nor conservatism is the solution, but rather that one on one relationship with their savior that will build that fervor for personal evangelism and the desire to save souls from a faltering and nearly failed world.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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You attack is another ad hominem attack against the Heirarchy of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist’s, with the ad nauseum contention that the “progressive solution” is somehow the direction the Hierarchy should endorse while abandoning it’s “conservativism” that represents the traditional standards of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
I will argue that neither track will bring us to that “primitive godliness” that will bring the true reformation and the “loud cry” message that will bring this earth’s history to a sure completion.
I noticed that Glenn Beck has developed a “conservative” mantra that declares that it was progressive ideas and legislation that has effectively “abrogated the constitution”, virtually destroyed the “Republic” that was born just two hundred years ago and resulted in abandoning the principles that made this nation great in an age long ago and far away. America’s “greatest generation” will never be replicated and we are now an “Empire of Debt”.
The Seventh-day Adventist church has moved in a similar direction in the hands of “progressives”. Our institutions are largely “leveraged” despite the clear direction at the turn of the 20th Century to abandon and avoid debt at all cost by the old grey haired lady of the prophetic gift.
Progressives would have us abandon Seventh-day Adventist theology to allow for “progressive” ideas that conform with “mainstream” views of a majority of the theologic and even atheistic scientific communities that would most certainly lead us into the confusion of “Babylon” and a serious apostacy of Faith.
On the other hand, Conservatives have perpetuated a “spiritless” theology that while maintaining a marginal “purity of the faith” reminiscent of the very papacy we felt we were “protesting” against, has lost it’s most prominent call to duty as “evangelism” is “purchased” and not “practiced”!!!
A church that was once known for it’s generosity and enthustiastic community services, ingathering and medical advances is now seen as a “cult” of unfriendly “Adventists” that keep the Jewish Sabbath. A 90 year old community services director once summed it up most precisely “we’re dead but we’re not buried!!!”. A local “elder” and formerly a director of Literature Evangelists told me just this very week-end of inviting a family he has studied with for several months to church for the Christmas Breakfast and program. He made a point of letting the church “pastor” they were coming and they received a less than “warm welcome”…the “pastor” never so much as greeted them, let alone invited them back and the rest of this church family clearly gave little concern for their “new guests” in the revelry of this special Sabbath Program. The “guests” are victims of a lay-off and could ill afford “Christmas” so a small group worked to get at least some presents to them. The “community services” director made it clear there was little the church could do to help. A call to “Toys for tots” revealed we needed to have our church pastor call…a rejected notion by the pastor and his staff.
And so we come to the conclusion that our religion is a dry as the bones in the hills of Gilboa and we have indeed reached a the point in our Laodicean experience where we must worry that we are about to be “spewed out of my mouth” while the Lord prepares to build a “Remnant Church”. A clear difference between Laodicea and the Remnant will be that all consuming desire to save souls for the kingdom.
There are some who would argue that 3ABN, Amazing Facts, It is Written, et al, are the “modern” evangelism. I fear that this is not the picture the Old Grey Haired Lady saw as she looked forward to the end of time. And it is illogical to assume that these “licensed” entities will play a serious effort as we near the final events. In fact, some may have less than an honest desire and have simply taken advantage of the SDA propensity to support any mass media evangelism program as God’s Annointed to achieve economic security at the expense of the faithful rather than a serious desire for the savings of souls.
So, in summary, neither progressivism nor conservatism is the solution, but rather that one on one relationship with their savior that will build that fervor for personal evangelism and the desire to save souls from a faltering and nearly failed world.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
You're comments are noted - I agree with you that conservatism is not the answer - but you are not talking about the same progressivism that I'm talking about. I don't think that progressive ideas can necessarily be conflated with the evils of conservatism.
I don't support bringing secular politics into the church whether they are 'progressive" or "conservative" - but what I can't understand - is why when progressivism is concerned with "christian morality" in terms of fighting for economic justice, for the poor - against racial injustice - is there such a bid to impugn it?
Why when conservatism has been inextricably linked with injustice - with loss of life, with unequal opportunity, with deaths, with compromise - why is there such a bid to equate it to christianity?
I support the notion you brought up that it is important to stress a relationship with Christ. When persons however, insist that employing political terminology and literally equating "conservatism" with christian authenticity and rubbishing progressivism is to be celebrated- it seems as if they are trying to justify wrong doing and immorality.
Conservatism has come to mean for some - not an adherance to christian standards, but an adherence to moral compromise on the subject of racial injustice, etc. People have literally and unfairly been killed, denied job opportunities, have been violated, degraded as a result of "conservative" ideas - yet we are told that if christianity is not equated to "conservatism" - then someone this is not true christianity.
What gets me- is that there are many progressive christians who do adhere to Christian standards and there are many "conservative" christians who have compromised standards.
People need to look at a persons's actions and their pronouncements rather merely assume that because they call themselves "conservative" - that they adhere to Christian standards.
I believe that the "new" Church leadership has issued an unfair and unwarrented approach to true genuine Christians who do have standards. I think it is indeed a relaxation of standards when clapping, dancing, and emotional worship in the Church are given more importance than whether or not conservative SDAs have been permitted to not adhere to the 10 commandments and have not been called out on it by Church leadership.
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And you would suggest that progressivism has no injustice?
And what would you call it when progressive "debt" results in the failure of educational and medical institutions that "constituents" contributed to and even campaigned to raise funds for their establishment?
And if you think that progressive institutions are incapable of injustice, would you like to compare notes:
How about the casting aside of Virginia Jean Rittenhouse by "progressives" under the Gerrity administration for upholding christian standards?
Or how about the virtual collapse of a constituency support while we adhered to the intersholastic "Flames" while facing virtual bankruptcy and the flames practiced on Sabbath afternoons?
Or why a basketball star was allowed to stay in school after a history of vandalism and womanizing while others were dismissed by the same "Judiciary Committee"?
Or, with enrollment collapsing as constituents withdrew support and moved students to other schools hundreds of faculty careers were virtually destroyed?
Or, how a progressive hospital administrator kept borrowing and virtually hundreds of employees faced lost jobs, pensions and we lost yet another of our hospitals, one church and an academy literally ended up in the landfill?
Want to go on??? Injustice is just as viciously enabled by progressives and conservatives!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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next post below.
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And you would suggest that progressivism has no injustice?
And what would you call it when progressive "debt" results in the failure of educational and medical institutions that "constituents" contributed to and even campaigned to raise funds for their establishment?
And if you think that progressive institutions are incapable of injustice, would you like to compare notes:
How about the casting aside of Virginia Jean Rittenhouse by "progressives" under the Gerrity administration for upholding christian standards?
Or how about the virtual collapse of a constituency support while we adhered to the intersholastic "Flames" while facing virtual bankruptcy and the flames practiced on Sabbath afternoons?
Or why a basketball star was allowed to stay in school after a history of vandalism and womanizing while others were dismissed by the same "Judiciary Committee"?
Or, with enrollment collapsing as constituents withdrew support and moved students to other schools hundreds of faculty careers were virtually destroyed?
Or, how a progressive hospital administrator kept borrowing and virtually hundreds of employees faced lost jobs, pensions and we lost yet another of our hospitals, one church and an academy literally ended up in the landfill?
Want to go on??? Injustice is just as viciously enabled by progressives and conservatives!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.
I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.
In my personal opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body. I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws. Now is this moral?
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You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government
I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.
In my personal opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.
You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!
Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???
The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body. I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"
Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws. Now is this moral?
I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!
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Yea, I agree with whatever you two guys are talking about, visa conservatives and progressives. But can we please stop with the educated speech and bring it down to the everyday guy sitting in the pew? Let me try, the church is filled with stuffy old white guys and bitter old black guys. The stuffy old white guys see a dumming down of the White way and attribute it to drums, shake your leg music and getting high on meat eating supposed Seventhday Adventist. And the bitter old black guys think everything that came from Ellen G. White ain't right everyone is prejudice and the war on black music is just plain evil. Thus you have two groups on the same side battling with each other and as my mom use to say "two wrongs don't make a right." Whereas the above mentioned are not the only schism's between the two sides, it is still a pretty clear snapshot of the conflict between the two unconverted sides.
Thus, with every new leader of the church blame must be assigned and sides clearly drawn, because divided is the only way to truly conquer the evil pew sitters. Thus as has been stated God is about to spew our fellow evil brothers out of his mouth and set up a better kingdon to our liking.
But truth be told both sides are so far out of whack when it comes to the will of God as to be unrecognizable. Very little of Adventism is what the founding fathers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit intended. Thus when either side finds there HOLY SPIRIT UNDER ATTACK THEY FEEL THREATENED AND UPSET. What I mean is that both sided keep trying to define Christianity by works (conservative) or (liberal) while at the same time both are completely void of the Holy Spirit. Very, very few miracles are performed in the church because God has long since been abandoned in favor of conservative agendas or Liberal agendas. Until we repent and recognize that the Holy Spirit is not leading we will continue to have division and a desire to drum up the Holy Spirit through one act or the other.
You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government
I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.
In my personal opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.
You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!
Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???
The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body. I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"
Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws. Now is this moral?
I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!
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The more I follow discussions like this I realize that the Good Lord had a reason to provide some solid counsel through a small and uneducated lady by the name of Ellen. She told us that the same person should not be in power too long at a time. My memory tells me she gave as a reason that none are perfect, and if the same person stays in power too long his deficiencies will become more noticeable and weaken the church. Then it is better that another person whose weaknesses are exhibited elsewhere takes office for a while.
Seems like no other president served the General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church longer than A. G. Daniells. He may have been a good leader, but finally he had to be replaced, and that gave him time to write a needed book on justification by faith.
The emphasis of each president has been different, and I'd say we needed the change, just like the United States has needed different presidents.
Seems like Franklin Delano Roosevelt united the American people when he utilized the new radio and talked the people out of the effects of the great depression. He remained in power during the war and while Truman was in power Congress voted that no president could remain in power for more than two periods. I think this was a wise decision. After Truman America needed a Republican president like Dwight Eisenhower. What a fortunate nation to have two great political parties who alternate.
Just think what would have happened to the Supreme Court of the United States if the president had always been a Democrat. Then at each vacancy the president would appoint a new judge with Democratic leanings in evaluating the Constitution. The same would apply if every president happened to be a Republican.
The United States would cease to be a democracy and become an inept state. Then you'd have the danger of the nation leaning towards a dictatorship.
Even though Great Britain is still a kingdom it is today ruled by a similar dual system where the Conservatives and Labor alternate. Freedom rules where the citizens - or the people in the pew - have something to say. History has demonstrated how this is impossible where a single party remain in power indefinitely. I'm afraid that before the end of time several powerful nations on earth will become inept states with a ruling power over all of the citizens.
So lets be thankful as long as we are able to change our rulers, presidents, etc. - also in our Church. That we do not have a pope to rule over us as long as he lives.
I have edited this to correct some twists made by an unintelligent spell checker
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Jise,
You said some very serious things against both Elder Ted Wilson and the SDA Church itself, therefore, exactly what in Elder Ted Wilson's inaugural message caused you to react this way against him in particular?
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Gailen Arthur Joy: Sure -it could be true that Martin L. King was unfaithful to his wife - however, his overall, civil rights were untainted. People who slam the civil rights movement do so because they support moral compromise and racial injustice.
Interesting how you don't note that Newt Gingrich or McCain were unfaithful to their wives, and that their politics suck unlike Martin L. King.
It is interesting how conservatives like you like to condemn Martin L. King. Many conservatives however, uphold and support the founding fathers - even though - not only were they unfaithful to their wives, but supported slavery, and raped women. I would not be surprised if Ted Wilson supports this. This is why Ted Wilson does not have credibility to me - when He wants to equate Christianity to Conservatism.
Progressivism is not the basis of bloated taxes and Government - The budget was balanced under Clinton and now we have unprecedented deficits like never before - that were caused by a conservative government.
would you prefer to tax the poor and the middle class to give to the rich, rather than have your taxes pay for just social programs. I opposethe notion that fighting for what's right and against racial injustice necessarily involves corruption.
I think it is unconsciounable that anyone want to insinaute that in order to be christian, that one must support moral compromise and a depriving of civil rights and basic morality. Republican politicians in Congress were caught with boy pages, and yet they were defended by the Adventist Review. This shows that many of the Adventist Conservatives really do have a laizze faire approach to morality and want to impose this compromise onto the church - they have very little credibility in my book.
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Jise,
You said some very serious things against both Elder Ted Wilson and the SDA Church itself, therefore, exactly what in Elder Ted Wilson's inaugural message caused you to react this way against him in particular?
I'm opposed to the fact that he is silent about the conservative SDAers who themselves have exploited others, womanized, bore false witness against others. Essentially, he in my opinion seems to be stating that if you are "conservative" that you can get away with moral compromise, break the 10 commandments. In my opinion, He seems to be stating that forms of worship are more immoral than breaking the 10 commandments. He in my opinion, has slandered "emotional worship" and would be hard pressed to point to the biblical basis where in the bible does not support "emotional worship."
God is not against emotions - the bible is silent about the propriety of drums and clapping
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Jise, I don't know you or where you come from, but I am really glad that you don't sit in the pew next to me, finding fault with everyone and everything. I would hope that you would go find a non SDA church to vent your wrath on. Nobody is making anyone be a member of the SDA church. If you don't like the doctrine and standards and things being taught, leave. By the way, Christ and His righteousness is taught and practiced in my little Adventist church. We welcome with open arms anyone who is wanting to learn of Jesus and wants Christian fellowship.
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Gailon Arthur Joy - I think your remark about "emotional music" is uneducated.
This sabbath school quarterly if I remember correctly touches on emotions. The bible does not say that all emotions are bad. Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship - I think it's immoral for a leader or any one to elevate "emotional worship" in importance as an arbiter of christianity over and above christian behavior and observance of the 10 commandments.
I guess you can't admit that stale, Western hymns that also are derived from pagan musical roots - are unbiblical.
- please explain why western hymns that are derived from pagan european musical roots are a more appropriate biblical form of worship - rather than over "emotional" music?
Ted Wilson - in his inaugural - should have been more specific in what he was objecting to in the music and worship - because no where in the bible - does the bible speak against "emotional" music.
After all, God wants people to be sincere in their worship, not fake or fraudulent. I am afraid that Ted Wilson is encouraging fakeness in terms of worship, but not only worship - but in terms of existence and "christian" being in the Church. Worship forms are condemned but not conservatives who bear false witness against others, don't adhere to the 10 commandments, etc.
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Jise, I don't know you or where you come from, but I am really glad that you don't sit in the pew next to me, finding fault with everyone and everything. I would hope that you would go find a non SDA church to vent your wrath on. Nobody is making anyone be a member of the SDA church. If you don't like the doctrine and standards and things being taught, leave. By the way, Christ and His righteousness is taught and practiced in my little Adventist church. We welcome with open arms anyone who is wanting to learn of Jesus and wants Christian fellowship.
Sounds like you have little appetite for intellectual inquiry for the truth. If fault exists, should not it be pointed out? You are right - no one is making any one be a member of the SDA Church - yet the SDA Church also does not have the right to remain unchallenged when it itself is supporting moral compromise. Sounds like you are encouragin people to just accept moral compromise.
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Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship...
"Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!" (Psalm 47)
"Let them praise his name with dancing" (Psalm 149)
"Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!" (Psalm 150)
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Christianity supercedes politics, denominations, leaders, dogma, cultural taboos, and all other forms of hinderance. Jesus consorted with the ultra-conservatives, the liberals, the brazen sinners... no one was beneath him. Up until Jesus, God was locked up in a golden box that could only be approached once a year by one man. The place where God and man came together was a building. Jesus made God universal. The cultural taboos that Jewish Christians wanted to impose on all others were brushed aside as irrelevant. I feel badly for anyone whose Christianity has to be defined by Wilson, Jise, a church, or any other human or construct of man. The wheat and the tares are to grow together, and it is only up to the master to divide them after the harvest.
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Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship...
"Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy!" (Psalm 47)
"Let them praise his name with dancing" (Psalm 149)
"Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals!" (Psalm 150)
This is true.
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Christianity supercedes politics, denominations, leaders, dogma, cultural taboos, and all other forms of hinderance. Jesus consorted with the ultra-conservatives, the liberals, the brazen sinners... no one was beneath him. Up until Jesus, God was locked up in a golden box that could only be approached once a year by one man. The place where God and man came together was a building. Jesus made God universal. The cultural taboos that Jewish Christians wanted to impose on all others were brushed aside as irrelevant. I feel badly for anyone whose Christianity has to be defined by Wilson, Jise, a church, or any other human or construct of man. The wheat and the tares are to grow together, and it is only up to the master to divide them after the harvest.
Ok, You want to include me in there with Wilson - et. al. - I disagree with that - but overall, you raise some interesting and good points. Thank you, .
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Man, I hate to do this, but I have to go GJ on this one. It did come out later that MLK had some issues with women. but I have to say that it was msotly said and then swept under the rug once again, mainly because of who he was so a lot of people don't know, or just like some others we know.......have pitched their tents along "de' nial".
You know, I hear what you both are saying. There are those on both sides who are not the "Ideal". I have to also say, that it is mostly consevatives who tend to be the most inflexible. If Jesus had not come, where would we be now? Thnk about it.....the Pharisees are the ones who would have been considered the "consevatives of that time. they considerdered Jesus rebel, troublemaker, and they were just as corrupt a they come, inluding having women who were the "temple" prostitutes. They seem to get into this kind of trouble becuase they have the law portion, and don't really believe that it is not the law that saves you. Also, the reason "why" is a bit skewed for them.
Now us liberals can get into all kinds of trouble when we just go too far in trying to counter the consevatives, and some just don't follow any rules, laws.....they 'jes free! LOL!! We have to realtionship part down, but have a skewed understanding also of the law and it's purpose. Especially since it has been errantly used to constrict and foster conformity, leaving no room for growth within a personal relationship with God.
My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly! problem is....are we listening?)
You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government
I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.
In my personal opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.
You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!
Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???
The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body. I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"
Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws. Now is this moral?
I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!
[/quote]
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Amen, Amen, Amen!!!!! But I have to add that there are those of us somewhere in the middle of those two extremes.
Yea, I agree with whatever you two guys are talking about, visa conservatives and progressives. But can we please stop with the educated speech and bring it down to the everyday guy sitting in the pew? Let me try, the church is filled with stuffy old white guys and bitter old black guys. The stuffy old white guys see a dumming down of the White way and attribute it to drums, shake your leg music and getting high on meat eating supposed Seventhday Adventist. And the bitter old black guys think everything that came from Ellen G. White ain't right everyone is prejudice and the war on black music is just plain evil. Thus you have two groups on the same side battling with each other and as my mom use to say "two wrongs don't make a right." Whereas the above mentioned are not the only schism's between the two sides, it is still a pretty clear snapshot of the conflict between the two unconverted sides.
Thus, with every new leader of the church blame must be assigned and sides clearly drawn, because divided is the only way to truly conquer the evil pew sitters. Thus as has been stated God is about to spew our fellow evil brothers out of his mouth and set up a better kingdon to our liking.
But truth be told both sides are so far out of whack when it comes to the will of God as to be unrecognizable. Very little of Adventism is what the founding fathers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit intended. Thus when either side finds there HOLY SPIRIT UNDER ATTACK THEY FEEL THREATENED AND UPSET. What I mean is that both sided keep trying to define Christianity by works (conservative) or (liberal) while at the same time both are completely void of the Holy Spirit. Very, very few miracles are performed in the church because God has long since been abandoned in favor of conservative agendas or Liberal agendas. Until we repent and recognize that the Holy Spirit is not leading we will continue to have division and a desire to drum up the Holy Spirit through one act or the other.
You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government
I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.
In my personal opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.
You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!
Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???
The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body. I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"
Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws. Now is this moral?
I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!
[/quote]
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Man, I hate to do this, but I have to go GJ on this one. It did come out later that MLK had some issues with women. but I have to say that it was msotly said and then swept under the rug once again, mainly because of who he was so a lot of people don't know, or just like some others we know.......have pitched their tents along "de' nial".
You know, I hear what you both are saying. There are those on both sides who are not the "Ideal". I have to also say, that it is mostly consevatives who tend to be the most inflexible. If Jesus had not come, where would we be now? Thnk about it.....the Pharisees are the ones who would have been considered the "consevatives of that time. they considerdered Jesus rebel, troublemaker, and they were just as corrupt a they come, inluding having women who were the "temple" prostitutes. They seem to get into this kind of trouble becuase they have the law portion, and don't really believe that it is not the law that saves you. Also, the reason "why" is a bit skewed for them.
Now us liberals can get into all kinds of trouble when we just go too far in trying to counter the consevatives, and some just don't follow any rules, laws.....they 'jes free! LOL!! We have to realtionship part down, but have a skewed understanding also of the law and it's purpose. Especially since it has been errantly used to constrict and foster conformity, leaving no room for growth within a personal relationship with God.
My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly! problem is....are we listening?)
You've raised several scenarios that are not in context - so I can't respond to each one. However, you don't mean to suggest that government overspending and bloated pensions are merely crimes of progressivism.
Overspending and bloated pensions comes from two sources ... broadbased taxes that were unconstitutional and patronage politics which is by definition corrupt government
I'm not pretending that liberal politics are immune from the stain of corruption - what however, bothers me - is that conservatives in the SDA Church pretend that conservatism is immune from the stain of corruption.
In my personal opinion, I believe that progressive politics are more moral than conservative politics - but this is another story.
You will have a hard time defending that as progressivism is the source of broadbased taxation that eneables immorality in alll its forms.
You talk about womanizing etc. being linked to progressives - and this is my point - the conservative leadership within the SDA Church has refused to come out against conservative SDAs who are engaged in a whole host of immoral behaviors such as womanizing, dishonesty, exploitation, etc. - instead they want to attack "emotional worship" -
Emotional worship is not "worship" but rather self-indulgence!!!
Conservative politics have resulted in tax cuts for the rich at the expense of the US deficit- Conservatives have bragged about their health institutions which take advantage of the poor economically and refuse to offer affordable care to the poor.
And from whence is it "just" to tax the rich so the less rich can take benefits for themselves and their cronies? Explain the justice here???
The issue is that we rarely here "conservatives' owning up to their failures - yet they choose to want to impose their secular political practices on an entire spiritual body. I don't think all progressives can be brushed with the misdeeds of those you've alleged to be progressive.
Again, a matter of perspectrive...if progressives want to abandon the Traditional SDA theology...go build your own religion...don't hijack their religion for your personal purposes!!! "Buy your own box!!!"
Martin L. King was a progressive and he never did any of those things you are accusing progressives of doing. We have Church leaders who've supported jurists who've gone out of their way to not enforce the anti-discrimination laws. Now is this moral?
I don't know where you get your history from, but Martin Luther King was known to be less than faithful to Coretta and most of the leaders of the Civil Rights movement lived well above the standard of living of those they purportedly wanted to liberate and still do this to this day with their well known "greenmail" tactics of forcing corporations to support their various "non-profits"...you are speaking to a person way too familiar with the filth of all sides...they are all too human and prone to serve themselves first and the people LAST!!! Stop living in a delusion world assuming one side is any better than the other and understand they ALL face hell fire and damnation...regardless of your views!!!
[/quote. Thank you for your posting - Princess. Martin L. King was not perfect - nobody is. He however, he did not strike me as meanspirited and wanting the worst for others as some conservatives do. My problem with some conservatives is - that what it means to be conservative seems to be limited to a few political issues concerning civil rights, and a few church issues such as ordination of women. -but has little to nothing to do with requiring conservatives to adhere to the 10 commandments or a christian lifestyle. I actually get the feeling that some conservatives wish "ill" on others and this informs their views on civil rights and other issues. T Now as to what you say when you say: " My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly! problem is....are we listening?) " - I say agree - amen. I think it is a stereotype - to stereotype all or even most - of the progressive movement with compromise of basic morals. Just because some one believes in the "progressive" ideal of opposing racial injustice - does not mean that said person is morally compromised - but this is the idea that some conservatives are peddling.
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You have launched a thought-provoking conversation. Thank you. I would posit that stereotyping and wishing ill on others are not the exclusive domain of conservatives, or progressives, but are practiced equally by both sides. "If you don't hate evil in the manner that I do, then..." and "If you don't love and care as much as I do, then..." and what comes after the two "thens" is usually fundamentally the same. Regardless the motivation behind it, vitriol is vitriol, and hate is hate.
Thank you for your posting - Princess. Martin L. King was not perfect - nobody is. He however, he did not strike me as meanspirited and wanting the worst for others as some conservatives do. My problem with some conservatives is - that what it means to be conservative seems to be limited to a few political issues concerning civil rights, and a few church issues such as ordination of women. -but has little to nothing to do with requiring conservatives to adhere to the 10 commandments or a christian lifestyle. I actually get the feeling that some conservatives wish "ill" on others and this informs their views on civil rights and other issues. T Now as to what you say when you say: " My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly! problem is....are we listening?) " - I say agree - amen. I think it is a stereotype - to stereotype all or even most - of the progressive movement with compromise of basic morals. Just because some one believes in the "progressive" ideal of opposing racial injustice - does not mean that said person is morally compromised - but this is the idea that some conservatives are peddling.
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You have launched a thought-provoking conversation. Thank you. I would posit that stereotyping and wishing ill on others are not the exclusive domain of conservatives, or progressives, but are practiced equally by both sides. "If you don't hate evil in the manner that I do, then..." and "If you don't love and care as much as I do, then..." and what comes after the two "thens" is usually fundamentally the same. Regardless the motivation behind it, vitriol is vitriol, and hate is hate.
Thank you for your posting - Princess. Martin L. King was not perfect - nobody is. He however, he did not strike me as meanspirited and wanting the worst for others as some conservatives do. My problem with some conservatives is - that what it means to be conservative seems to be limited to a few political issues concerning civil rights, and a few church issues such as ordination of women. -but has little to nothing to do with requiring conservatives to adhere to the 10 commandments or a christian lifestyle. I actually get the feeling that some conservatives wish "ill" on others and this informs their views on civil rights and other issues. T Now as to what you say when you say: " My solution would be that we all do as the bible says, get into a persona realtionship with Jesusu Christ, read and study for ourselves, pray and listen daily for the manifest Word in our lives today(Yes!!! God is still speaking to us directly! problem is....are we listening?) " - I say agree - amen. I think it is a stereotype - to stereotype all or even most - of the progressive movement with compromise of basic morals. Just because some one believes in the "progressive" ideal of opposing racial injustice - does not mean that said person is morally compromised - but this is the idea that some conservatives are peddling.
Thank you for your comments - God even hates - he hates unrighteousness. Strong belief against unrighteousness is not necessarily vitriol. I take Issue with Ted Wilson's bid to insinuate that certain christians are not as strong christians or even christian when compared to conservatives merely on account of something like "emotional music". I'm tired of genuine Christians being lied about conservatives and portrayed in an inaccurate manner by conservatives. Exploitation, fornication , bearing false witness are wrong. But you would not know that by looking at what's being toleratedwithin the church.
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It is widely thought that Ted Wilson was put in office largely by constituency from South and Central America, Africa and Southern/Southeast Asia. It is also widely thought that his verbal stance on driving the church in a more conservative direction could be a bow to those constituents.
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This makes sense to me Murcielago, as these regions are pretty conservative. However, as jise was stating in the beginning, this would make it mostlya political appointment, more than a spiritual one. Not What we are supposed to be about, but nothing new. GC basically did the samething at the 2005 Session when they we placated th fractions questioning GC representation in the area of minorities and women. They naominated a AFrican American woman(please forgive me I have forgotten her name......It always reminds of me Rosa Park, but I know that it not it.....LOL!!!), in good corporate style, killing two birds with one stone. now, i just looked at the leadership Pic on the site and there is a pretty good Representation as far a African Americans are concerned, but I do kind of notice the absence of anyone of Asian decent.........but progress is progress. I just believe if we call ourselves a "world" church then our leadership ought to represent that claim.
My problem with all this is that God called us to be the head not the tail. We needed to lead out in all
things, including racial equality. In that area and of gender equality, we fall way behind what we arrogantly call "the world".
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Princess di,
I don't want to offend you, but sometimes in trying to please everyone and being a "world church" doesn't that sometimes put pressure on people just to fill the spots and not necessarily find the most spirit filled person for the job? I am not a SDA member, but reading these posts, it sounds like they haven't been choosing the most "Chistian-like" people for the jobs. How long do the search for these people? Do people volunteer for these jobs? How exactly are they chosen?
I agree with you about Martin Luther King. I believe the man truly believed in what he was doing for the black people. How he treated he wife,was wrong, tho, but that was between him and her. I don't know if, had he lived he would have become like some of the other leaders or not. I hope not.
I am not sure whether it is conservatives, progressives or liberals who keep poor people poor. I grew up poor. I am 57 years old. When I was a kid, my Mom made less than $3000 a year and $7000 was considered poverty level in VA. I don't know who was in the White House. I lived in houses that probably should have been condemned. I lived in one, that was a converted barn. It had so many roaches( and we were clean) that the exterminator said, we could burn it down, the roaches would leave while house was burning and then come back after the fire :ROFL: We paid $50.. a month to live in this place- but that was what we could afford- my dad was a drunk and we lived on what my Mom could make. I lived like this for 18 years--- so therefore, I lived thru several presidents, Democrats and Republicans- We stayed poor thru all of them- never got any richer, never got on any programs, never got any free food, food stamps, free medical care, NOTHING. Who kept us like this? I don't know. Liberals, Conservatives, Progressives?
I couldn't tell you, I just know we were poor.
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Yes, MrsT, the labels are a matter of giving a person a sense of belonging and superiority. As a liberal, one feels superior to conservatives because "they have more compassion and view people in a more global manner." As a conservative, one feels superior to liberals because "they are more responsible and patriotic." People are by nature clannish, and tend to get their sense of security by tying their identity to a group. In the world of Liberal vs Conservative, there is no moral superiority on either side.
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No offense taken Mrst. I am definitely not talking about any Affirmitive Action type of solution. There are qualified minorities within our ranks. There is a whopper of a story about why they didn't amke Dr. Calvin Rock(African American) GC President when he was most qualified at the time. It actually took blacks picketing the 1958(?) GC Session in San Francisco for them to even consider hiring anyone black....an then they hired one.....E. E. Cleveland by the time the 60's rolled around. had nothing for him to do, had secretaries to threated to quit than work under a black man, etc. Here locally, there was only on black person working at the conference office and she was cleaning the building...........
More recently, 15 years ago they start the Net series in Satellite envangelism. Problem one, very few minorities had satellite dishes, and on the right day you heard those in charge actually admitting that series was targeted toward {probably] upperclass whites, as their numbers were declining within the membership. The presenters were whilte for many years. Problem two, African America churches tend to be located in the "hood". The members may move out and commute in for church, but they rarely leave the community, even if they rebuild. Not a good place, or evangelism strategy for reaching poor minorities, disadvantaged blacks, who basically blame a good portio of their misfortune on the "white man". Be it true or not, it is reality, there are trust issues there. We were "encouraged" to participate in this evangelistic effort, because there would be no evangelism monies sent for any other efforts, along with the requriement that the church had to purchase a then $5,000 satellite equipment. Some of the the churches could not afford that.
Also after some years with only white pastors doing the seminiar, they asked Walter Pearson. A good portion of white churches simp0ly refused to carry the New series that year. I believe Doug Bachelor or Shawn Boonstra had something shortly there after in which they did pariicipate. We definitely stillhave our racial issues within the church, which is sad.
Wow, mrst, my upbringing was entirely different, but I know of people(some family), even in Calfiornia, who lived as you did. they struggled, and you are right, it didn't matter who was in office. i thinkit really doesn't make a difference. As we see recently the republicans just flat out siad that if President Obama said the sky was blue, they wee going to maintain it was green, just because..............well, we haven't gotten a good reason yet. Then when the president compromised with the Republicans ont he tax bill, the democrats,, for all their compasssion, were willing to allow milssions of jobless Americans lose the only source of income in Unemployment benefits because...............haven't gotten a good answer on that one yet either......sigh. They ALL get into office and lose focus, and stasart putting priority on party politics, instead of what is right for the people they are suppoed to represent. All are just filthy with special interest.
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Let me first start by saying that the man reported to be Martin Luther King Jr. being taped by Hoover is not even confirmed to be Martin Luther King Jr. Secondly, we are talking like we know he did it when in fact the man is dead and cannot speak to the validity of the tape recordings. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LEND CREEDENCE TO THINGS NOT PROVEN TRUE (CAPS MEANT FOR EMPHASIS ONLY).
What we can talk to with a certainty is to the great divide in the Adventist Church when it comes to color. And in a denomination that is predominately people of color we have yet to have a Black, Asian or Hispanic President. Not that it really matters to me personally but for those who see the church and its leaders as their rulers it bears weight. And a great deal of the reason for the continued prejudices that exist in the church is a continued lack of where the focus should be and a lack (I believe) of the Holy Spirit. Truly we see ourselves as the bearers of the truth and the people that hold the keys to the kingdom when in fact it is Jesus that holds the keys to the kingdom. I realize if I was naked or homeless or in need that by in large I could not go to the Church for help. Most of the people would label me as lazy or deserving of my condition as a reason to turn and walk away. There would be members who would drive by me in their cars, Lexis, Chrysler 300, Harley motorcycles etc... and I would be left to struggle; and if I did get money I must pay my tithe or be confined to the gates of hell.
Princess di,
I don't want to offend you, but sometimes in trying to please everyone and being a "world church" doesn't that sometimes put pressure on people just to fill the spots and not necessarily find the most spirit filled person for the job? I am not a SDA member, but reading these posts, it sounds like they haven't been choosing the most "Chistian-like" people for the jobs. How long do the search for these people? Do people volunteer for these jobs? How exactly are they chosen?
I agree with you about Martin Luther King. I believe the man truly believed in what he was doing for the black people. How he treated he wife,was wrong, tho, but that was between him and her. I don't know if, had he lived he would have become like some of the other leaders or not. I hope not.
I am not sure whether it is conservatives, progressives or liberals who keep poor people poor. I grew up poor. I am 57 years old. When I was a kid, my Mom made less than $3000 a year and $7000 was considered poverty level in VA. I don't know who was in the White House. I lived in houses that probably should have been condemned. I lived in one, that was a converted barn. It had so many roaches( and we were clean) that the exterminator said, we could burn it down, the roaches would leave while house was burning and then come back after the fire :ROFL: We paid $50.. a month to live in this place- but that was what we could afford- my dad was a drunk and we lived on what my Mom could make. I lived like this for 18 years--- so therefore, I lived thru several presidents, Democrats and Republicans- We stayed poor thru all of them- never got any richer, never got on any programs, never got any free food, food stamps, free medical care, NOTHING. Who kept us like this? I don't know. Liberals, Conservatives, Progressives?
I couldn't tell you, I just know we were poor.
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Quite busy today - but just wanted to add one comment. In my opinion, Ted Wilson - the new GC President and other conservatives like him seem to from their actions applaud sociopathic behavior within the Church that by definition is amoral, immoral - and this is applauded and accepted without conscience. It appears that the test for conservatism is whether or not one supports particular racial injustices or gender injustices rather than whether or not one adheres to the biblical code. In fact violation of the biblical code is accepted and mere form is trumpeted over actual following biblical codes. It appears that if one believes in racial stereotypes or supports racial and gender injustices, this is tolerated by the Church hiearchy even if one is laizze faire with biblical standards. "Liberals" who are not laizze faire with biblical standards are still unjustly stereotyped as such in my opinion by GC "leaders" such as Ted Wilson.
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Let me first start by saying that the man reported to be Martin Luther King Jr. being taped by Hoover is not even confirmed to be Martin Luther King Jr. Secondly, we are talking like we know he did it when in fact the man is dead and cannot speak to the validity of the tape recordings. BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO LEND CREEDENCE TO THINGS NOT PROVEN TRUE (CAPS MEANT FOR EMPHASIS ONLY).
You know I haven't even made up my mind about this really. As I said, it came out and disappeared just a quickly. if he did, it was between He and Coreta, and I didn't see her pakcing up to leave. She like, I love it!.
What we can talk to with a certainty is to the great divide in the Adventist Church when it comes to color. And in a denomination that is predominately people of color we have yet to have a Black, Asian or Hispanic President. Not that it really matters to me personally but for those who see the church and its leaders as their rulers it bears weight. And a great deal of the reason for the continued prejudices that exist in the church is a continued lack of where the focus should be and a lack (I believe) of the Holy Spirit. Truly we see ourselves as the bearers of the truth and the people that hold the keys to the kingdom when in fact it is Jesus that holds the keys to the kingdom. I realize if I was naked or homeless or in need that by in large I could not go to the Church for help. Most of the people would label me as lazy or deserving of my condition as a reason to turn and walk away. There would be members who would drive by me in their cars, Lexis, Chrysler 300, Harley motorcycles etc... and I would be left to struggle; and if I did get money I must pay my tithe or be confined to the gates of hell.
Now see, Christian, I wasn't going to go ALL the way there! LOL! I figured I had said enough for the moment. LOL!! But you are absolutely right!
Edited formatting
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Guys,
There is not just racial prejudice in your church, I think it's probably in all churches. I have attended Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal,Catholic, Church of God, Church of Christ, you name it.. the only 3 churches that I have found that seem to have broken the racial barriers are the Catholic and the Mormon and the Jehovah Witnesses. The last 2, worry me. there are a few blacks in white Baptist churches and white Methodists, but for the most part, they are all white. And when I have visited black Baptist churches, there are no whites, Why? When I have visited black Methodist churches, there are no whites, why?
princess di, are there whites in your church?
When I visited in black churches I was made to feel welcome, but as the only white person, I felt like a fish out of water, but I guess I could have gotten used to it, my son didn't want to. I loved the music and I could get used to the preaching. Every preacher is different. I liked the idea that women were deacons. I grew up with blacks as my best friends because of the places I lived, they were the only ones who wanted to be my friends.I just don't understand why we don't worship together. Maybe it takes "forced" worship, like it took "forced schooling before we will worship together.
I know we worship differently. I like a church where I can shout "Amen,Praise the Lord" and raise my hands in praise. My mother on the other hand, is a very calm, quiet person. Finding a church to please both of us has been very difficult. I am not a "holy roller", but I don't mind a church that gets excited about our Lord and what He can do. God made our world and we should praise our God, that has this kind of power.
I am a conservative, but I am NOT a racist. I think there should be programs to help those that REALLY need it. I don't think that our Congress should continue to get raises when there are people standing in line for food and not knowing where their next meal is coming from. There are programs that should be installed, but wasted should be cut, too.
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Mrst,
Religion in true version is a belief of deep love for our creator that does not require emotional outburst or actions but steady day after day. To discipline ourselves in meekness with calm steady devotion is one thing and uncontrolled emotions of every thing thinkable of religion is another for public view. "Emotion" is never religion that goes and comes in a moment and gone the next.
Mostly the reason for this is because if their "worship" in this style is most sincere raising the hands, etc. there will be some within the church that are not and totally unstable for religious timing in their own lives and cause them or set them off into "rolling" dancing, jibbering and whatever floats their boat for emotion ride including what a personal person told me sets them into a sexual high. In which my mouth gasped at that statement.
Go to church to worship in thankfulness, and humbleness that brings the joy into heart and soul as if you come into the presence of God. Angels cloak their face and hush or sing. and the other is to learn of Him. and yes, we are to keep our children and teach them respect from babes. All week they can play, run,work, hunt & trap, school, cut up and do all at anytime and believe me they did but my six knew what time it was on Sabbath worship and one blink of an eye from me or dad during the time of worship was all it took. It is reverance for God at His time -not ours. Just my way of understanding it and thoughts.
Your mother may have also thought this.
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I was in no way trying to say that prejudice only exist in the Adventist Church, I understand it is a systemic problem that faces all churches and America at large. But I was trying to contrast the Christian talk with the Christian walk. The model given of the true Christian church, in the bible, is different than the one that exist in the form of Adventism today. The proclivity of the whites towards blacks and visa versa exist as a remnants from slavery, even though it appears to be edentulous it is not. Instead the two sides justify there positions based on pass wrongs some even going as far to say the bible justifies their actions. But the reality is painfully evident, there is a lack of love for their brother because of the color or lack thereof in there skin.
We live in a mad mad world that is sometimes so crazy even the ones trying to maintain some sanity, if there is any such thing, have to wonder. Why when the there is enough food to feed the entire world is anyone going hungry, much less 2/3 of the world, to bed.
Guys,
There is not just racial prejudice in your church, I think it's probably in all churches. I have attended Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal,Catholic, Church of God, Church of Christ, you name it.. the only 3 churches that I have found that seem to have broken the racial barriers are the Catholic and the Mormon and the Jehovah Witnesses. The last 2, worry me. there are a few blacks in white Baptist churches and white Methodists, but for the most part, they are all white. And when I have visited black Baptist churches, there are no whites, Why? When I have visited black Methodist churches, there are no whites, why?
princess di, are there whites in your church?
When I visited in black churches I was made to feel welcome, but as the only white person, I felt like a fish out of water, but I guess I could have gotten used to it, my son didn't want to. I loved the music and I could get used to the preaching. Every preacher is different. I liked the idea that women were deacons. I grew up with blacks as my best friends because of the places I lived, they were the only ones who wanted to be my friends.I just don't understand why we don't worship together. Maybe it takes "forced" worship, like it took "forced schooling before we will worship together.
I know we worship differently. I like a church where I can shout "Amen,Praise the Lord" and raise my hands in praise. My mother on the other hand, is a very calm, quiet person. Finding a church to please both of us has been very difficult. I am not a "holy roller", but I don't mind a church that gets excited about our Lord and what He can do. God made our world and we should praise our God, that has this kind of power.
I am a conservative, but I am NOT a racist. I think there should be programs to help those that REALLY need it. I don't think that our Congress should continue to get raises when there are people standing in line for food and not knowing where their next meal is coming from. There are programs that should be installed, but wasted should be cut, too.
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I was in no way trying to say that prejudice only exist in the Adventist Church, I understand it is a systemic problem that faces all churches and America at large. But I was trying to contrast the Christian talk with the Christian walk. The model given of the true Christian church, in the bible, is different than the one that exist in the form of Adventism today. The proclivity of the whites towards blacks and visa versa exist as a remnants from slavery, even though it appears to be edentulous it is not. Instead the two sides justify there positions based on pass wrongs some even going as far to say the bible justifies their actions. But the reality is painfully evident, there is a lack of love for their brother because of the color or lack thereof in there skin.
We live in a mad mad world that is sometimes so crazy even the ones trying to maintain some sanity, if there is any such thing, have to wonder. Why when the there is enough food to feed the entire world is anyone going hungry, much less 2/3 of the world, to bed.
Guys,
There is not just racial prejudice in your church, I think it's probably in all churches. I have attended Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal,Catholic, Church of God, Church of Christ, you name it.. the only 3 churches that I have found that seem to have broken the racial barriers are the Catholic and the Mormon and the Jehovah Witnesses. The last 2, worry me. there are a few blacks in white Baptist churches and white Methodists, but for the most part, they are all white. And when I have visited black Baptist churches, there are no whites, Why? When I have visited black Methodist churches, there are no whites, why?
princess di, are there whites in your church?
When I visited in black churches I was made to feel welcome, but as the only white person, I felt like a fish out of water, but I guess I could have gotten used to it, my son didn't want to. I loved the music and I could get used to the preaching. Every preacher is different. I liked the idea that women were deacons. I grew up with blacks as my best friends because of the places I lived, they were the only ones who wanted to be my friends.I just don't understand why we don't worship together. Maybe it takes "forced" worship, like it took "forced schooling before we will worship together.
I know we worship differently. I like a church where I can shout "Amen,Praise the Lord" and raise my hands in praise. My mother on the other hand, is a very calm, quiet person. Finding a church to please both of us has been very difficult. I am not a "holy roller", but I don't mind a church that gets excited about our Lord and what He can do. God made our world and we should praise our God, that has this kind of power.
I am a conservative, but I am NOT a racist. I think there should be programs to help those that REALLY need it. I don't think that our Congress should continue to get raises when there are people standing in line for food and not knowing where their next meal is coming from. There are programs that should be installed, but wasted should be cut, too.
We do live in a sinful world where evil attacks us from all sides.
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This is an excellent question! We used to have quite an international congregation, including whites. They felt very welcome, but things just happened, they moved on usually away too far to attend our church. But they actually came because they felt comfortable. In fact, when some conference officials come to speak at our their wives are usually very moved by our service(which are not typical SDA, by a long shot and we don't hide it), and actually say they wish they could come there more often.
We don't have a problem with it at all. Now, there are somewhat "mixed" churches in our area, with whites, blacks, Asians, Hispanics, you name it. However, there are also, white churches in this area who don't welcome blacks at all. my Mom and Pop had a very interesting experience at one when wewere staying at out timeshare one time.
Guys,
princess di, are there whites in your church?
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There will be many a suppose Christian lost because of the Sabbath. The Sabbath seems to give rise to a lot of people who are mean and evil, BUT THEY KEEP THE SABBATH. They find safety in the fact that they attend church on Sabbath but the weightier portions of the law, meekness, kindness, gentleness and down outright love they are barren as the desert is of water. They are receiving the mark of the beast and are identified by the saying of those with the mark in there hand. They go to church on the sabbath and work, work at being evil, work at being holy, work at drumming up the Holy Spirit, and work at being saved. They never really die to self because they keep the sabbath and when wrongs are pointed out in their character they cannot except it because,they keep the sabbath. That is why the church remains in the dire condition it is in because of the sabbath.How can you tell someone they are lost when they think they are saved because they keep the sabbath. Obviously, being prejudice, unloving, gossipers, and just down right mean and hateful take a back seat to sabbath keeping.
Mrst,
Religion in true version is a belief of deep love for our creator that does not require emotional outburst or actions but steady day after day. To discipline ourselves in meekness with calm steady devotion is one thing and uncontrolled emotions of every thing thinkable of religion is another for public view. "Emotion" is never religion that goes and comes in a moment and gone the next.
Mostly the reason for this is because if their "worship" in this style is most sincere raising the hands, etc. there will be some within the church that are not and totally unstable for religious timing in their own lives and cause them or set them off into "rolling" dancing, jibbering and whatever floats their boat for emotion ride including what a personal person told me sets them into a sexual high. In which my mouth gasped at that statement.
Go to church to worship in thankfulness, and humbleness that brings the joy into heart and soul as if you come into the presence of God. Angels cloak their face and hush or sing. and the other is to learn of Him. and yes, we are to keep our children and teach them respect from babes. All week they can play, run,work, hunt & trap, school, cut up and do all at anytime and believe me they did but my six knew what time it was on Sabbath worship and one blink of an eye from me or dad during the time of worship was all it took. It is reverance for God at His time -not ours. Just my way of understanding it and thoughts.
Your mother may have also thought this.
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Racism is only in the mind of a beholder that can't begin to know the heart of non racist because of their own self feeling of less equality taught by history and not the word of God. Therefore they look for every aspect to prove it using past history, where they will never rise above it unless they themselves will put past, importance of color, and all facts of history of man's sins behind them. One thing that can explain this evil as an example is the act of Crucifixion against Jesus. I sure do give thanks that he is not a racist against us. There never was a slave white or black in all eras of time that was worse then this as many whites were burned at the stake. Until all differences in color are made void there will be those that cannot come under the banner of Christ because they recall, recall recall and put their skin color to the task. It is of no importance!!!
Racism in ones own heart does bring on other self hidden agenda's of sin. Such as over acting of equality instead of all in unity. Bible verses do not give differences for different cultures. Just the fact of using a different way of English speaking that all were trained the same since 1st grade. Difference in dress, Difference in walk, Difference in worship & music, flamboyant to show better equality. A non racist is easier detected by their non attention taking gimmicks which causes a meek christian to shy away as the overbearing sins take advance. Unity in their actions and a true Christian is in unity with the will that God presents and not a difference in culture. For some reason flamboyancy and meekness just don't match anymore then rings and things with bells and bows match the calm, meekness, and refined respect that is observed in differences of worship of unity defined. We are Americans --not African Americans --not Italion Americans--not German Americans. Who cares what and how we got here. We were given this great Nation to be Americans in Unity we were given the Bible to be in unity and some just do not get it. History is past and we were given opportunity to be in Unity!! Yes the devil took it for a turn or two but some men fought it and won it for the opportunity of all. Racism??? Only in the mind of a racist behind in all else that matters doing their own agendas. That is --what is not going through the gates. God made man in all color and left me without any but pale white. So what am I to do or believe about it when I very much love color(laugh) "Nothing"!!! or should I color my hair (white too) and give my face some big makup?? with some bells and bows to match?? Of course it might be a waste of money to do this. So the inner things are all acountable too in vanity--arent they??
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The Congregationalist, Huguenots, Dutch Reformed and other churches once used the Bible to prove that the white members of their congregations were the only true recipients of God's promise, and that people of colour were to be their servants in life and their children in the spiritual sense. They believed that the lands of the heathen were their God-given inheritance. Today, the Black Jews teach that they are the only true recipients of God's promise, that America is the promised land of their inheritance, and that all white people must, and will, be eradicated.
The point being, when you look to an organization of people for leadership, structure, dogma, etc, it will ALWAYS, and without exception, include the personal and cultural desires of the leader(s). Before Christ, it was taught that God's people were a race and nation, and that they were superior to all others. It was said "let us build a sanctuary that He may dwell among us." God was a being seperate from humans, who lived in a building where the people could come to be in His presence. Then Christ came and taught that every person's soul is a temple where God lives. We don't have to go to a building to find Him, He is inside. Christ taught the God is universal, and is not confined to a specific race or nation. Before Christ, God was the God of Israel. After Christ, He was the God of all humanity. Confining God to an organization is, in effect, sanctifying our wants and predjudices. Ted Wilson is the President of a large corporate entity that was built by people, and is operated by people. He and the organization he runs only have the power over you that you choose to give them. Giving man the part of you that should only be given to God is a choice you make. And when man fails, and you are impacted, it goes back to your choice.
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That having been said, the SDA church has done phenomenally well in many areas, including education and healthcare. An independent study showed that students in SDA schools score consistently higher than average on all subjects and in all grades. They also perfom above predicted achievement in all subjects and grades, regardless of ability. In many areas the church does very well, nevertheless, they are people, and will function only as people.
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Gailen Arthur Joy:
Interesting how you don't note that Newt Gingrich or McCain were unfaithful to their wives, and that their politics suck unlike Martin L. King.
I had no idea that House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Senator McCain were part of this discussion...I would guess at this point we roll out the "RACE CARD". Believe me when I say that no race or creed has the corner on CORRUPTION, including, much to your chagrin, minorities. You do not want to go there given the sitting Rep from NY, the former President of AUC and a host of others I could roll off my tongue and have written about. And my writing has clearly been without regard to Race or Creed!!! So do yourself a favor and avoid that head-on collision
It is interesting how conservatives like you like to condemn Martin L. King. Many conservatives however, uphold and support the founding fathers - even though - not only were they unfaithful to their wives, but supported slavery, and raped women.
May I point out to you that there are area's in Asia and Africa that still have very active slave economies, unfaithfulness is considered a way of life and women suffer rape at the hands of the powerful, whether that engenders the control of a weapon or simply the political or economic power to destroy lives. And, so, given the current international media and human rights climate, what would be their excuse???
Progressivism is not the basis of bloated taxes and Government - The budget was balanced under Clinton and now we have unprecedented deficits like never before - that were caused by a conservative government.
You clearly are very mis-informed or ignore history...your pattern would seem to suggest both as possibilities. A lesson on US Government budgeting and economics would clarify that during the second term of Ronald Reagan with the GHWBush team largely in charge at treasury and the white house allowed "tax reform" that was the 2nd largest tax increase in US History; and then George Herbert Walker Bush the candidate declared "read my lips...no new taxes and then as President invoked the largest tax increase in US income tax history. It was these increases in tandem with the republican revolution by your favorite republican Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, that lead the biggest reduction in spending in history (remember the Gingrich that stole Christmas - Time Magazine). That combination plus President Clinton opting to ignore Islamic issues (the first Trade Center Bombing, et al) and avoided an expensive war that gave the Clinton Administration the budget surpluses.
would you prefer to tax the poor and the middle class to give to the rich, rather than have your taxes pay for just social programs. I opposethe notion that fighting for what's right and against racial injustice necessarily involves corruption.
What Racial injustice? Taxes are paid by all races and creeds. Why should EVERYONE not pay their FAIR share? Tithe is not excused for the poor, nor for minorities...are you telling me God is a ruthless conservative???
I think it is unconsciounable that anyone want to insinaute that in order to be christian, that one must support moral compromise and a depriving of civil rights and basic morality. Republican politicians in Congress were caught with boy pages, and yet they were defended by the Adventist Review. This shows that many of the Adventist Conservatives really do have a laizze faire approach to morality and want to impose this compromise onto the church - they have very little credibility in my book.
And you think that unconstitutionally requiring me to pay for Obama Care to private insurers by operation of democratic legislation is fair?
Or how about pumping out a "non-budget" that moved us $1.4 Trillion dollars closer to bankruptcy for a bunch of corrupt unions? Or how about taking the entire equity of bond-holders and handing a share of Chrysler and GMAC to unions that helped make the mess and helping himself to the balance on behalf of Federal Guarantees?
And is this constitutional progressivism? You can have it all...and the tax tab that goes with it!!!
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Gailon Arthur Joy - I think your remark about "emotional music" is uneducated.
This sabbath school quarterly if I remember correctly touches on emotions. The bible does not say that all emotions are bad. Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship - I think it's immoral for a leader or any one to elevate "emotional worship" in importance as an arbiter of christianity over and above christian behavior and observance of the 10 commandments.
I guess you can't admit that stale, Western hymns that also are derived from pagan musical roots - are unbiblical.
- please explain why western hymns that are derived from pagan european musical roots are a more appropriate biblical form of worship - rather than over "emotional" music?
Ted Wilson - in his inaugural - should have been more specific in what he was objecting to in the music and worship - because no where in the bible - does the bible speak against "emotional" music.
After all, God wants people to be sincere in their worship, not fake or fraudulent. I am afraid that Ted Wilson is encouraging fakeness in terms of worship, but not only worship - but in terms of existence and "christian" being in the Church. Worship forms are condemned but not conservatives who bear false witness against others, don't adhere to the 10 commandments, etc.
You, EDUCATED, have clearly not read testimonies to the Church. particularly the counsels to the Ohio Conference on the use of music to raise emotional fervor.
And here is the problem dealing with an "educated" blogger not of the Seventh-day Adventist faith...that person comes morally compromised and from a different theological background devoid of the advantages of a sound understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy and the sharpened sensibility advantage it brings to the discussion.
Therefore, it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with one of so little real SDA theological background. You are left to your pathetic and illogical progressive theology, albeit not a Seventh-day Adventist theology. Therefore, I can safely conclude you are not a Seventh-day Adventist and unworthy of further theological debate.
We leave you to your right of conscience to beleive as you choose, despite it's lack of true biblical basis and being clearly bitten by the premise that everyone else that disagrees with you are racists.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Gailon on this one I must agree with you completely. Ellen White warned us of the dangers of the music that we are experiencing at this time and warned the church against it. The biggest danger of the music is the fact that it creates an atmosphere that is totally opposite from the condition and disposition of the church at large. And then she went on to say that some would attribute the music to the working of the Holy Spirit. Whether the music is Rock and Roll or R&B etc... should not be the driving principle of the service. I can tell you for a certainty that in the (vast majority) of these churches the music is the reason for the service more than anything. I have a nephew that lives in Atlanta (14 yo) and I attended the service with him and he express to me while he liked the music after church he could never remember the sermon because the music was so overpowering.
We have the Spirit of prophecy warning us against the very things we are experiencing now yet we continue in the same direction. It is always been of interest to me that even though we know that Satan was the leader of the Heavenly choir that we would allow his music in our churches knowing full well the implications of it. In the book of Isaiah God would say take away the sounds of your music and let righteousness run like a stream. I would suggest that what we need is more all night prayer meetings and fasting and praying for the lords return. But let me tell you I know for a fact that if you ask for those things you will get maybe 1% of the churches participation though it is needed much more than music. THE REAL REASON FOR THE UPSWING IN MUSIC IS BECAUSE MUSIC CALMS THE SAVAGE BEAST. And we do not know our own hearts and refuse to recognize the true condition of our own heart.
Gailon Arthur Joy - I think your remark about "emotional music" is uneducated.
This sabbath school quarterly if I remember correctly touches on emotions. The bible does not say that all emotions are bad. Given that the bible condemns breaking the 10 commandments, but is virtually silent about the propriety of drums, dancing, and clapping in worship - I think it's immoral for a leader or any one to elevate "emotional worship" in importance as an arbiter of christianity over and above christian behavior and observance of the 10 commandments.
I guess you can't admit that stale, Western hymns that also are derived from pagan musical roots - are unbiblical.
- please explain why western hymns that are derived from pagan european musical roots are a more appropriate biblical form of worship - rather than over "emotional" music?
Ted Wilson - in his inaugural - should have been more specific in what he was objecting to in the music and worship - because no where in the bible - does the bible speak against "emotional" music.
After all, God wants people to be sincere in their worship, not fake or fraudulent. I am afraid that Ted Wilson is encouraging fakeness in terms of worship, but not only worship - but in terms of existence and "christian" being in the Church. Worship forms are condemned but not conservatives who bear false witness against others, don't adhere to the 10 commandments, etc.
You, EDUCATED, have clearly not read testimonies to the Church. particularly the counsels to the Ohio Conference on the use of music to raise emotional fervor.
And here is the problem dealing with an "educated" blogger not of the Seventh-day Adventist faith...that person comes morally compromised and from a different theological background devoid of the advantages of a sound understanding of the Spirit of Prophecy and the sharpened sensibility advantage it brings to the discussion.
Therefore, it is impossible to carry on an intelligent conversation with one of so little real SDA theological background. You are left to your pathetic and illogical progressive theology, albeit not a Seventh-day Adventist theology. Therefore, I can safely conclude you are not a Seventh-day Adventist and unworthy of further theological debate.
We leave you to your right of conscience to beleive as you choose, despite it's lack of true biblical basis and being clearly bitten by the premise that everyone else that disagrees with you are racists.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.
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Amen!! Ain't no rocks going to cry out in my place either! Ooops!! Good answer, good answer, Mrst.(In my most quiet reverent voice) I just might have to send you my phone number to stop me from posting on this one.............good going.....there is just so much more we need to understand.......but I am going to shut my mouth....................oK but just one thing.......LOL..........
The enemy absolutely LOVES it when we restrict sincere praise and worship to God. We join him in keeping the praise and worship from God Lucifer himself was uniquely created to give. It is a way to place us in league with him against God. It is not the type or genre, it is the sincerity of the heart. Example:, I have heard not one of you who maintain the conservative music stance, complain about the music on 3ABN, or more to the point any song that Danny sings, but you all call him all but spawn of satan, right? Didn't stop him from kicking his wife to the curb and marrying Gidget, and every other thing you all have accused him of.....all along singing this perfectly "acceptable" music. As far as you all are concerned he might as well be singing "urban" gospel.
Ok, I am going to leave it right there.......I promise....Mrst, please remind me not to post to this particular subject, PLEASE......Gurl, I need your help! LOL!!!
I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.
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Let me try this one more time. The racism is there, Tinka. This denomination's hosplital let a black womaon die at one of their hospitals because of her race. That is truth. They then, organized black(regional conferences) intead of teaching and promoting unity. That is a fact. And then there are the daily reminders that African Americans live with of which you could not even imagine. That is a fact
Now, I believe the Word of God, because inspite of ALL of that and more, I am still a member of SDA church, because I believe the God given, biblically based message. AND I believe that God's love is unconditional and equal. I don't trust men to do the right thing, because they still have not changed, but I trust God. He has already given me victory over ALL sin, including racism, so I don't have to be a victim any longer. I cannot call myself christian and not believe that God is not more powerful that any sin. That being said, we don't deny the truth of what happened. We don't get stuck there inthe anger and hurt, or make it excuse as to why we can't be successful or even properous in 2011. We learn from it.
Your stance is very close to those who totally deny the Holocaust. Tinka, if you odnt' understand this concept, just say so. Turth is you never wil fully, you thankfully lack the experience that allows the understanding, but please don't deny it. It is equivalent to what you are all are saying Danny's supporters are doing to TS's victims, by denying or even minimizing the abuse, they further victimize them.
Racism is only in the mind of a beholder that can't begin to know the heart of non racist because of their own self feeling of less equality taught by history and not the word of God. Therefore they look for every aspect to prove it using past history, where they will never rise above it unless they themselves will put past, importance of color, and all facts of history of man's sins behind them. One thing that can explain this evil as an example is the act of Crucifixion against Jesus. I sure do give thanks that he is not a racist against us. There never was a slave white or black in all eras of time that was worse then this as many whites were burned at the stake. Until all differences in color are made void there will be those that cannot come under the banner of Christ because they recall, recall recall and put their skin color to the task. It is of no importance!!!
Racism in ones own heart does bring on other self hidden agenda's of sin. Such as over acting of equality instead of all in unity. Bible verses do not give differences for different cultures. Just the fact of using a different way of English speaking that all were trained the same since 1st grade. Difference in dress, Difference in walk, Difference in worship & music, flamboyant to show better equality. A non racist is easier detected by their non attention taking gimmicks which causes a meek christian to shy away as the overbearing sins take advance. Unity in their actions and a true Christian is in unity with the will that God presents and not a difference in culture. For some reason flamboyancy and meekness just don't match anymore then rings and things with bells and bows match the calm, meekness, and refined respect that is observed in differences of worship of unity defined. We are Americans --not African Americans --not Italion Americans--not German Americans. Who cares what and how we got here. We were given this great Nation to be Americans in Unity we were given the Bible to be in unity and some just do not get it. History is past and we were given opportunity to be in Unity!! Yes the devil took it for a turn or two but some men fought it and won it for the opportunity of all. Racism??? Only in the mind of a racist behind in all else that matters doing their own agendas. That is --what is not going through the gates. God made man in all color and left me without any but pale white. So what am I to do or believe about it when I very much love color(laugh) "Nothing"!!! or should I color my hair (white too) and give my face some big makup?? with some bells and bows to match?? Of course it might be a waste of money to do this. So the inner things are all acountable too in vanity--arent they??
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Please post to the thread please, I need a good discussion (smile). As I have said before music is made way to much of. You will notice that Jesus life was one primarily of service action with very little mention of music. Oh, and I do not equate musice with worship, but rather a clean hand and pure heart is what I equate to worship. Let me make myself very very clear (I hope) I love music as much as the next person does actually I played for church and am a musician, I play the keyboard, I have a kurzweil and a Technic and a casio and a rowland, actually I have four separate keyboards in my house. Actually I feel a little guilty because I have more instruments than I can possibly ever play. Okay, I confess I am guilty of lusing after many instruments. Now having said all of that I realize we are way, and I mean way over indulgent when it comes to music in church, that is why people get sooooo passionate when it comes to their music. ----- and yes I am rambling and very tired after 16 hours of work, so try and cypher this one ot Princess (lol).
Amen!! Ain't no rocks going to cry out in my place either! Ooops!! Good answer, good answer, Mrst.(In my most quiet reverent voice) I just might have to send you my phone number to stop me from posting on this one.............good going.....there is just so much more we need to understand.......but I am going to shut my mouth....................oK but just one thing.......LOL..........
The enemy absolutely LOVES it when we restrict sincere praise and worship to God. We join him in keeping the praise and worship from God Lucifer himself was uniquely created to give. It is a way to place us in league with him against God. It is not the type or genre, it is the sincerity of the heart. Example:, I have heard not one of you who maintain the conservative music stance, complain about the music on 3ABN, or more to the point any song that Danny sings, but you all call him all but spawn of satan, right? Didn't stop him from kicking his wife to the curb and marrying Gidget, and every other thing you all have accused him of.....all along singing this perfectly "acceptable" music. As far as you all are concerned he might as well be singing "urban" gospel.
Ok, I am going to leave it right there.......I promise....Mrst, please remind me not to post to this particular subject, PLEASE......Gurl, I need your help! LOL!!!
I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.
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Princess I will second that motion. Prejudice is still very much a part of the Adventist Church and is not a figment of my imagination. It is very difficult for some to understand that because they have not walked in our shoes. I was in the hospital (adventist) hospital recently within the last 2 years with internal bleeding. Without telling you the entire story, I called the nurses station for help, the nurse came to the room and told me next time I get out of the bed make sure I plug the monitor back up. I told the lady the reason I was calling is because I knew I was dying and could feel the blood gathering in my stomach. The lady turned to me and said I will let the doctor. In the end I called the nursing station a number of time, finally getting someone to come to my room after telling them if they did not come I would use the bathroom in the bed. When the nurse came to the room I told her I did not need to use the bathroom but wanted her to check my blood pressure. I woke up after so many hours to a nurse screaming in my ear to wake up after my blood pressure fell so low that they could not find one (they had to call rapid response). Now I can tell you for a certain that the reason my condition deteriated to that point was because of prejudices. I ended up on a heart monitor and the like simply because of that incident.
Let me try this one more time. The racism is there, Tinka. This denomination's hosplital let a black womaon die at one of their hospitals because of her race. That is truth. They then, organized black(regional conferences) intead of teaching and promoting unity. That is a fact. And then there are the daily reminders that African Americans live with of which you could not even imagine. That is a fact
Now, I believe the Word of God, because inspite of ALL of that and more, I am still a member of SDA church, because I believe the God given, biblically based message. AND I believe that God's love is unconditional and equal. I don't trust men to do the right thing, because they still have not changed, but I trust God. He has already given me victory over ALL sin, including racism, so I don't have to be a victim any longer. I cannot call myself christian and not believe that God is not more powerful that any sin. That being said, we don't deny the truth of what happened. We don't get stuck there inthe anger and hurt, or make it excuse as to why we can't be successful or even properous in 2011. We learn from it.
Your stance is very close to those who totally deny the Holocaust. Tinka, if you odnt' understand this concept, just say so. Turth is you never wil fully, you thankfully lack the experience that allows the understanding, but please don't deny it. It is equivalent to what you are all are saying Danny's supporters are doing to TS's victims, by denying or even minimizing the abuse, they further victimize them.
Racism is only in the mind of a beholder that can't begin to know the heart of non racist because of their own self feeling of less equality taught by history and not the word of God. Therefore they look for every aspect to prove it using past history, where they will never rise above it unless they themselves will put past, importance of color, and all facts of history of man's sins behind them. One thing that can explain this evil as an example is the act of Crucifixion against Jesus. I sure do give thanks that he is not a racist against us. There never was a slave white or black in all eras of time that was worse then this as many whites were burned at the stake. Until all differences in color are made void there will be those that cannot come under the banner of Christ because they recall, recall recall and put their skin color to the task. It is of no importance!!!
Racism in ones own heart does bring on other self hidden agenda's of sin. Such as over acting of equality instead of all in unity. Bible verses do not give differences for different cultures. Just the fact of using a different way of English speaking that all were trained the same since 1st grade. Difference in dress, Difference in walk, Difference in worship & music, flamboyant to show better equality. A non racist is easier detected by their non attention taking gimmicks which causes a meek christian to shy away as the overbearing sins take advance. Unity in their actions and a true Christian is in unity with the will that God presents and not a difference in culture. For some reason flamboyancy and meekness just don't match anymore then rings and things with bells and bows match the calm, meekness, and refined respect that is observed in differences of worship of unity defined. We are Americans --not African Americans --not Italion Americans--not German Americans. Who cares what and how we got here. We were given this great Nation to be Americans in Unity we were given the Bible to be in unity and some just do not get it. History is past and we were given opportunity to be in Unity!! Yes the devil took it for a turn or two but some men fought it and won it for the opportunity of all. Racism??? Only in the mind of a racist behind in all else that matters doing their own agendas. That is --what is not going through the gates. God made man in all color and left me without any but pale white. So what am I to do or believe about it when I very much love color(laugh) "Nothing"!!! or should I color my hair (white too) and give my face some big makup?? with some bells and bows to match?? Of course it might be a waste of money to do this. So the inner things are all acountable too in vanity--arent they??
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Wanted to add a general comment. I will have to address these many comments later on today or tommorow when I have time but just wanted to say - much of American culture such as the "lynching culture" is sociopathic. In my opinion, the conservative wing of the SDA Church subscribes to this culture of oppression and compromised morality -on some level - and this is what has attracted large numbers of converts to the Adventist Church . For me, Ted Wilson - the new President of the SDA Church represents moral compromise in that he tolerates and perpetuates this culture. People who sing in Gospel choirs are condemned - yet conservative sociopaths who perpetuate a culture of sociopathy in violation of the biblical 10 commandments are celebrated and applauded.
I'm led to believe that Ted Wilson celebrates moral compromise and instead wants to attack "symbols" of culture - and that he's perpetuating ethnic discrimination as religion.
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Is Ted Wilson, black?
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Is Ted Wilson, black?
Yes, he is Black just like President Clinton and Ellen G. White.
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Bring up your proof since you are spouting off your sarcasm of it. So what makes the difference if she was --that you seem to be dallying in. The person (his name slips my mind but seem to recall "Foy") before EGW with the same dream was mulatto and refused the task and this is her statement. So why was this not mentioned of her? Why would she hide it. Need some documentation on this and not internet stuff from the "food for the worms." I read it all and nowhere did that come across that I can recall.
This is exactly what I mean, who would bring this up if it didn't make a difference to the beholder of this issue. It only makes a difference to a person who wants a difference because of their inner frustrations. I don't care if she was "butterscotch." The Lord chose her and that proves my point. This recall, recall, recall, of sins of racism is never going to enter the gates. Reality of history and now yes, but only to those who overcome will be in future. When things hit hard lets see if that still is all a racist can think of on the color line. Let me tell you there is going to be a lot more to worry about then the color code of past "devil operations". How about buying and selling, living, dying and standing alone and some will still be thinking about color of skin? Not me! :)
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TInka, even you got black in you because Adam was black and Eve was white, so how is that sarcasm? That's why the saying started if you go black you can't go back. Obviously, down the line we are all kin to each other from Noah. So actually you are a distant relative to me and if your have .1% black blood you are black, so there you have the proof you need. Besides, I read some of your writing and I can see the sista coming out of you.
Okay, folks I am just kidding lighten up, laughter is a medicine.
Bring up your proof since you are spouting off your sarcasm of it. So what makes the difference if she was --that you seem to be dallying in. The person (his name slips my mind but seem to recall "Foy") before EGW with the same dream was mulatto and refused the task and this is her statement. So why was this not mentioned of her? Why would she hide it. Need some documentation on this and not internet stuff from the "food for the worms." I read it all and nowhere did that come across that I can recall.
This is exactly what I mean, who would bring this up if it didn't make a difference to the beholder of this issue. It only makes a difference to a person who wants a difference because of their inner frustrations. I don't care if she was "butterscotch." The Lord chose her and that proves my point. This recall, recall, recall, of sins of racism is never going to enter the gates. Reality of history and now yes, but only to those who overcome will be in future. When things hit hard lets see if that still is all a racist can think of on the color line. Let me tell you there is going to be a lot more to worry about then the color code of past "devil operations". How about buying and selling, living, dying and standing alone and some will still be thinking about color of skin? Not me! :)
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See you aint' right Christian! LOL!!!
Ok, but wasn't your statement saying the EGW was NOT black? You were saying if Billclinton and EGW wre black then so was Ted Wilson. We all know he would die before even thinking he might be one eighth of a drop black. LOL!!! That is what I got the five times I read it over after reading Tinka's post. However.....there is a question, now.......personally as a hair stylist for 25, and jes a black woman who knows, those edges and that tight french braid always gave me pause........she could quite pulled them edges all the way straight. Plus to looked toomuch like too many light, skinned black women I knew......but then again....it didn't realy matter to me.
TInka, even you got black in you because Adam was black and Eve was white, so how is that sarcasm? That's why the saying started if you go black you can't go back. Obviously, down the line we are all kin to each other from Noah. So actually you are a distant relative to me and if your have .1% black blood you are black, so there you have the proof you need. Besides, I read some of your writing and I can see the sista coming out of you.
Okay, folks I am just kidding lighten up, laughter is a medicine.
Bring up your proof since you are spouting off your sarcasm of it. So what makes the difference if she was --that you seem to be dallying in. The person (his name slips my mind but seem to recall "Foy") before EGW with the same dream was mulatto and refused the task and this is her statement. So why was this not mentioned of her? Why would she hide it. Need some documentation on this and not internet stuff from the "food for the worms." I read it all and nowhere did that come across that I can recall.
This is exactly what I mean, who would bring this up if it didn't make a difference to the beholder of this issue. It only makes a difference to a person who wants a difference because of their inner frustrations. I don't care if she was "butterscotch." The Lord chose her and that proves my point. This recall, recall, recall, of sins of racism is never going to enter the gates. Reality of history and now yes, but only to those who overcome will be in future. When things hit hard lets see if that still is all a racist can think of on the color line. Let me tell you there is going to be a lot more to worry about then the color code of past "devil operations". How about buying and selling, living, dying and standing alone and some will still be thinking about color of skin? Not me! :)
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Lets be real now okay? Ellen White in the end will be part Japanese if it gets tithe money, her eyes do look kinda slanted. Some people really do need certain things in order to identify with and except them. I don't think the lady was black and it really does not matter so long as what she was saying is the truth.
See you aint' right Christian! LOL!!!
Ok, but wasn't your statement saying the EGW was NOT black? You were saying if Billclinton and EGW wre black then so was Ted Wilson. We all know he would die before even thinking he might be one eighth of a drop black. LOL!!! That is what I got the five times I read it over after reading Tinka's post. However.....there is a question, now.......personally as a hair stylist for 25, and jes a black woman who knows, those edges and that tight french braid always gave me pause........she could quite pulled them edges all the way straight. Plus to looked toomuch like too many light, skinned black women I knew......but then again....it didn't realy matter to me.
TInka, even you got black in you because Adam was black and Eve was white, so how is that sarcasm? That's why the saying started if you go black you can't go back. Obviously, down the line we are all kin to each other from Noah. So actually you are a distant relative to me and if your have .1% black blood you are black, so there you have the proof you need. Besides, I read some of your writing and I can see the sista coming out of you.
Okay, folks I am just kidding lighten up, laughter is a medicine.
Bring up your proof since you are spouting off your sarcasm of it. So what makes the difference if she was --that you seem to be dallying in. The person (his name slips my mind but seem to recall "Foy") before EGW with the same dream was mulatto and refused the task and this is her statement. So why was this not mentioned of her? Why would she hide it. Need some documentation on this and not internet stuff from the "food for the worms." I read it all and nowhere did that come across that I can recall.
This is exactly what I mean, who would bring this up if it didn't make a difference to the beholder of this issue. It only makes a difference to a person who wants a difference because of their inner frustrations. I don't care if she was "butterscotch." The Lord chose her and that proves my point. This recall, recall, recall, of sins of racism is never going to enter the gates. Reality of history and now yes, but only to those who overcome will be in future. When things hit hard lets see if that still is all a racist can think of on the color line. Let me tell you there is going to be a lot more to worry about then the color code of past "devil operations". How about buying and selling, living, dying and standing alone and some will still be thinking about color of skin? Not me! :)
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Hmmmm
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Hmmmm
???
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(laugh) :ROFL: just letting him say the last word but in great doubt of this scenario. I am not really a joker on things but love actual funny things that happen in reality.
I've read quite a bit and know how much has come into being and when and why Not as much in the know of history as much as some of you that live in all parts of the world where it comes much easier. If I am in the dark I usually go after the light of things and proof. I always have to know what possible truth is. I do not like to be in doubt that reflects how I should live and believe.
...and back to the music saga from above statements from Christian. I usually decide (for me) on the worship music by the use of story or words used within music. If it is all about worshiping God and praising Him in beautiful melody I think that is for real. But the songs that conclude all about you, I and testifying about your self and your story with clashing music that it might be in most times and places seem to pass but worship to God I feel should be entirely to Him on His day to Thank and praise Him. Those I, me, and you songs bring on the repetition, same notes over and over clashing and totally uninteresting and take away any connection to Holy Spirit but the high spirit of ones self. Take note-more often of the words and then decide what is praising and what is not. Some songs are not so bad in testifying but true worship songs are chosen by melody, words and not performances for public view of every individual likes of jazz, rock, balleds, or drumming beats of rock does not really give praise to God for his Love for us and all that he gives. Also the reason I brought this up again is I do not believe in applause in the church for performances. I believe it is applauding ourselves for giving worship in our own manner to God. I may give some samples that EGW brought into mind why we should not do the hand clapping in church for different reasons. So why do we do it? I know I know, it is just another progressive !
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I'm kind of busy - to respond to all the comments - but my 2 cents for the day.
Interesting thing is - that in the SDA Church - you can have people who've fomented ethnic cleansings, but are conservative - and have yet to be "called out" or criticized by the church leadership (I have not read of Ted Wilson calling these people out) - to my knowledge - you have other "conservatives" who've done real crude things such as yielded ethnic slurs against others, exploited others, told lies against others. And yet to hear the church leadership tell it -
it's the people singing in Gospel Choirs with "emotional Worship" who are the evil ones, not the people in the SDA Church who've fomented ethnic cleansing yet have been protected by the SDA Church and been permitted to work in ADRA relief. Merely listening to "classical music" or being "phony" is supposed to be "christian" even if one is a sociopath. It's as if this is to say that as long as you don a "business suit", that the book is defined by the "cover". Funny thing is, many of us have been treated far more christianly when singing in non-SDA Gospel choirs than when among some Adventists who are used to and flourish among a sociopathic atmosphere. I feel as if people who blankently "condemn" emotional worship, yet support "cconservatives" who've broken the 10 commandments - are perpeutating apostasy and are agents of compromise, and are looking for non-existent reasons to call into question the validity of other "valid" forms of christian experience that don't have the "SDA" label - which is an unbiblically supported, "man-made" label.
The Adventist Church has some really "low" characters in it - people who've fomented ethnic cleansings, have really crude views of women and races - and yet these individuals are celebrated and tolerated by the Church leadership, because these behaviors are akin to the sociopathic views of North American conservatism on the subject of "minorities", social justice, etc.
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Psalms was the original set of songs. Go through it sometime and you will find that it is David testifying about himself. It is filled with "I", "me", "mine" and so forth. It also encourages praise and singing to include dance and instruments of percussion. David expressed lots of emotion in his songs, and encourages people to do the same. I have not seen anything in the Bible teaching that we should not worship and praise as David did, but then I might have missed it somewhere.
(laugh) :ROFL:just letting him say the last word but in great doubt of this scenario. I am not really a joker on things but love actual funny things that happen in reality.
I've read quite a bit and know how much has come into being and when and why Not as much in the know of history as much as some of you that live in all parts of the world where it comes much easier. If I am in the dark I usually go after the light of things and proof. I always have to know what possible truth is. I do not like to be in doubt that reflects how I should live and believe.
...and back to the music saga from above statements from Christian. I usually decide (for me) on the worship music by the use of story or words used within music. If it is all about worshiping God and praising Him in beautiful melody I think that is for real. But the songs that conclude all about you, I and testifying about your self and your story with clashing music that it might be in most times and places seem to pass but worship to God I feel should be entirely to Him on His day to Thank and praise Him. Those I, me, and you songs bring on the repetition, same notes over and over clashing and totally uninteresting and take away any connection to Holy Spirit but the high spirit of ones self. Take note-more often of the words and then decide what is praising and what is not. Some songs are not so bad in testifying but true worship songs are chosen by melody, words and not performances for public view of every individual likes of jazz, rock, balleds, or drumming beats of rock does not really give praise to God for his Love for us and all that he gives. Also the reason I brought this up again is I do not believe in applause in the church for performances. I believe it is applauding ourselves for giving worship in our own manner to God. I may give some samples that EGW brought into mind why we should not do the hand clapping in church for different reasons. So why do we do it? I know I know, it is just another progressive !
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:ROFL:
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One more thing I'd like to add, What The church leadership seems to applaud is assimilation - and assimilation is not necessarily a good thing. This is what the comment about "emotional worship" from Wilson speaks to - and this is why we see "sociopaths" in the SDA Church who think being "christian" and "religious" is supporting moral compromise and a lack of social justice/racial justice and sounding little different from david duke.
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Want to ask a rhetorical question. The Bible says that the "evil" will Borrow and not repay -while the blessed will lend. I want to ask you all your opinion rhetorically on the debt crisis in America and whether you think this is indicative of the compromise being introduced into the SDA church - is this debt crisis that is being experienced generally, and that some are experiencing individually a ramification of this biblical admonition? Now mind you, there have been many innocent "victims" in the US - who were victims of unethical lending practices and got bad mortgages - but there are others who have been greedy, and/or evil etc. - and are also underwater.
What I 've noticed - is that some of the "conservative" moral compromisers I'm talking about - some of whom consider themselves "leaders" - and sooo.... self righteous vis a vis - other groups,and some who've wished ill will on other groups - have huge debt burdens according to public land records - if looking at how much their housing value has dropped in just one year. I can think of one particularly nasty SDA "conservative" "leader" who's apparently almost $100,000 in the hole from the mortgage he/she got according to land records. Value dropped alomst $100,000 beginning in 2009 alone. 2009 was an important year for this leader when he started to adopt certain rhetoric. does this come with being "evil" and advocating for "moral compromise" in to their church?
I noticed this happened when this leader started making insinuations about ethnic groups, etc.
I can think of another "conservative" member of the SDA Church who is also talks about other ethnic groups allegedly in certain terms and allegedly being incapable of success and living in nice neighbhorhoods - yet a check of land records indicates taht this individual is around $40,000 underwater in their house. Meanwhile, some of the persons this individual was talking about, have substantial equity in their homes and a . Perhaps, the next 100 years of America will not be like the first 300 years in terms of what it takes to live the American dream :caution:
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Wrong thread as Jise posted on other and deleted. Who might you be talking about in your post?
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Wanted to add a general comment. I will have to address these many comments later on today or tommorow when I have time but just wanted to say - much of American culture such as the "lynching culture" is sociopathic. In my opinion, the conservative wing of the SDA Church subscribes to this culture of oppression and compromised morality -on some level - and this is what has attracted large numbers of converts to the Adventist Church . For me, Ted Wilson - the new President of the SDA Church represents moral compromise in that he tolerates and perpetuates this culture. People who sing in Gospel choirs are condemned - yet conservative sociopaths who perpetuate a culture of sociopathy in violation of the biblical 10 commandments are celebrated and applauded.
I'm led to believe that Ted Wilson celebrates moral compromise and instead wants to attack "symbols" of culture - and that he's perpetuating ethnic discrimination as religion.
Your racial tirade demonstrates a complete ignorance of history and REALITY!!!
To suggest that "large numbers of converts" are drawn to the SDA church to expedite racism is an outrage that should not be tolerated here or anywhere else. These comments demonstrate that YOU are a race bateing blogger of dubious social or debate value and are clearly not a Seventh-day Adventist or a FREIND of the Seventh-day Adventist church.
It is not only a concept born in psychosis but the evidence is simply not there as we have many Regional Conferences that substantially outnumber "racist conferences".
As to the decision to separate into an Apartheid Church, it was actually an accomodation to allow minorities to develop leadership and their own witness programs as well as preservation of their unique worship style.
As to the decision to sustain an Apartheid Church, I have not seen any movement by the victims of Apartheid to demand an end to Apartheid. I have seen them struggle to exert some oversight over traditional white institutions and I have also witnessed the collapse of support for those institutions by white constituencies as an unacceptable reaction, then blame it on minority constituencies.
But then, I have watched white constituencies sit back and watch administrators undermine, plunder and destroy dozens of institutions in my half century plus as a watch-dog, some would say "bull-dog".
It is LAODICEA and the Lord makes it patently clear where we end up and it ain't pretty...the greatest insult in any culture is to be spit out, but that is our fate...think long and hard the implication of this means to bring about true revival and reformation and ask where we will be when the spewn face their Lord and Saviour.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Ok, so at lunchtime today I typed a beautiful response to your post. LOL!!! Let me see iffn' I can recreate it.
So Christian, you talked about Jesus ministry on earth, but we all know that His ministray was very specific, and had nothing to do with music as praise and worship because He would have been promoting Himself, that wasn't the point. The point for Him to live life sinless, with no more power than is available to us. That He did, without using His divinity.
Now, you might not see music as part of praise and worship, but God does, as we are told that it permeates heaven. The reason I say that satan works so hard in this area to silence praise and worship, because hehimself was created with unequalled gifts and talents for music, and he witholds his praise and worship from God, and is steadily trying to convince man to withhold his, in all areas, but especially this one. Music IS important to God, He shows a clear preference for it as a significant part of one's praise and worship to Him. No earthly sanctuary has even attempted to touch that which is in heaven. Would you say He makes too much of music?
Now let's go to the OT. First we see how in battle, god instructed the COI many times to place the musicians singers at the front line. How powerful is that? Then, as already mentioned, we have David who wrote many, many Psalms and danced before the Lord upon the Triumphant return of the Ark. God called him a man after His own heart. Because David led a sinless life? Was such a good warrior? How about a good father?....NOT!
You know the bible talks about God inhabiting the praises of His people, and again in the Ot many battels were won when the COI lifted their voices in Praise and worship to God. the enemy defintiel doesn't want us to know we have athat kind of access to God.
Please post to the thread please, I need a good discussion (smile). As I have said before music is made way to much of. You will notice that Jesus life was one primarily of service action with very little mention of music. Oh, and I do not equate musice with worship, but rather a clean hand and pure heart is what I equate to worship. Let me make myself very very clear (I hope) I love music as much as the next person does actually I played for church and am a musician, I play the keyboard, I have a kurzweil and a Technic and a casio and a rowland, actually I have four separate keyboards in my house. Actually I feel a little guilty because I have more instruments than I can possibly ever play. Okay, I confess I am guilty of lusing after many instruments. Now having said all of that I realize we are way, and I mean way over indulgent when it comes to music in church, that is why people get sooooo passionate when it comes to their music. ----- and yes I am rambling and very tired after 16 hours of work, so try and cypher this one ot Princess (lol).
Amen!! Ain't no rocks going to cry out in my place either! Ooops!! Good answer, good answer, Mrst.(In my most quiet reverent voice) I just might have to send you my phone number to stop me from posting on this one.............good going.....there is just so much more we need to understand.......but I am going to shut my mouth....................oK but just one thing.......LOL..........
The enemy absolutely LOVES it when we restrict sincere praise and worship to God. We join him in keeping the praise and worship from God Lucifer himself was uniquely created to give. It is a way to place us in league with him against God. It is not the type or genre, it is the sincerity of the heart. Example:, I have heard not one of you who maintain the conservative music stance, complain about the music on 3ABN, or more to the point any song that Danny sings, but you all call him all but spawn of satan, right? Didn't stop him from kicking his wife to the curb and marrying Gidget, and every other thing you all have accused him of.....all along singing this perfectly "acceptable" music. As far as you all are concerned he might as well be singing "urban" gospel.
Ok, I am going to leave it right there.......I promise....Mrst, please remind me not to post to this particular subject, PLEASE......Gurl, I need your help! LOL!!!
I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.
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Yes you are so correct (not that you needed my validation) but notice the songs were always sung after or before some great event. Now take a minute and contrast it with the times that Israel apostatized and and displeased God. For me it is not entirely about the music but a mixture of condition and music. Sometimes a good thing done in the wrong situation is worse than a bad thing done in a bad situation. Recently, my mother died and let me tell you I was not to pleased for a number of obvious reasons, but if someone had started playing some stepping music I would have fought.
I think you and I would agree that the church is in a sad state, wordily, unloving, uncompassionate etc... The point I am trying to say is that God is not pleased with the music if the music makers heart is far from Him. There is no amount of music or music sang from the most capable lips that will bring praise to God if the heart is unconverted. For many music has become their God and seems to trump the importance of a sanctified and clean heart.
Now you know Princess that by in large (the vast majority) in the church would not help you if you were down and out. Get sick for any length of time and you will see how important or how much help you will get. I am sure that the best music here is screeching in the ears of God without a converted heart. So really the music is not (by in large) for God but for us humans and our expression whether real or fake.
Ok, so at lunchtime today I typed a beautiful response to your post. LOL!!! Let me see iffn' I can recreate it.
So Christian, you talked about Jesus ministry on earth, but we all know that His ministray was very specific, and had nothing to do with music as praise and worship because He would have been promoting Himself, that wasn't the point. The point for Him to live life sinless, with no more power than is available to us. That He did, without using His divinity.
Now, you might not see music as part of praise and worship, but God does, as we are told that it permeates heaven. The reason I say that satan works so hard in this area to silence praise and worship, because hehimself was created with unequalled gifts and talents for music, and he witholds his praise and worship from God, and is steadily trying to convince man to withhold his, in all areas, but especially this one. Music IS important to God, He shows a clear preference for it as a significant part of one's praise and worship to Him. No earthly sanctuary has even attempted to touch that which is in heaven. Would you say He makes too much of music?
Now let's go to the OT. First we see how in battle, god instructed the COI many times to place the musicians singers at the front line. How powerful is that? Then, as already mentioned, we have David who wrote many, many Psalms and danced before the Lord upon the Triumphant return of the Ark. God called him a man after His own heart. Because David led a sinless life? Was such a good warrior? How about a good father?....NOT!
You know the bible talks about God inhabiting the praises of His people, and again in the Ot many battels were won when the COI lifted their voices in Praise and worship to God. the enemy defintiel doesn't want us to know we have athat kind of access to God.
Please post to the thread please, I need a good discussion (smile). As I have said before music is made way to much of. You will notice that Jesus life was one primarily of service action with very little mention of music. Oh, and I do not equate musice with worship, but rather a clean hand and pure heart is what I equate to worship. Let me make myself very very clear (I hope) I love music as much as the next person does actually I played for church and am a musician, I play the keyboard, I have a kurzweil and a Technic and a casio and a rowland, actually I have four separate keyboards in my house. Actually I feel a little guilty because I have more instruments than I can possibly ever play. Okay, I confess I am guilty of lusing after many instruments. Now having said all of that I realize we are way, and I mean way over indulgent when it comes to music in church, that is why people get sooooo passionate when it comes to their music. ----- and yes I am rambling and very tired after 16 hours of work, so try and cypher this one ot Princess (lol).
Amen!! Ain't no rocks going to cry out in my place either! Ooops!! Good answer, good answer, Mrst.(In my most quiet reverent voice) I just might have to send you my phone number to stop me from posting on this one.............good going.....there is just so much more we need to understand.......but I am going to shut my mouth....................oK but just one thing.......LOL..........
The enemy absolutely LOVES it when we restrict sincere praise and worship to God. We join him in keeping the praise and worship from God Lucifer himself was uniquely created to give. It is a way to place us in league with him against God. It is not the type or genre, it is the sincerity of the heart. Example:, I have heard not one of you who maintain the conservative music stance, complain about the music on 3ABN, or more to the point any song that Danny sings, but you all call him all but spawn of satan, right? Didn't stop him from kicking his wife to the curb and marrying Gidget, and every other thing you all have accused him of.....all along singing this perfectly "acceptable" music. As far as you all are concerned he might as well be singing "urban" gospel.
Ok, I am going to leave it right there.......I promise....Mrst, please remind me not to post to this particular subject, PLEASE......Gurl, I need your help! LOL!!!
I have to disagree somewhat about the music in the church. It should not be the ONLY thing in the church, but if the Holy Spirit is leading the service, then no one should stop it. I also agree that there is a time and place for quiet and calm worship. I also believe that we do need services of prayer.
If the Lord leads me to raise me to raise my hands in praise, then I will. I will not quiet the Holy Spirit.
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First of all, I want to ask the admins if these posts regarding music/worship should be moved, and I apologize for my part in hijacking the thread.
Ok so Christian " some great event". You are right usually something on the line of deliverance or victory in battles, etc. Correct. However isn't that also what happens on an individual basis. When are we not praising and worshipping God, if it is not on the edge or the heels of some great victory, deliverance, and/or event in our lives. These days, should we not consider even waking up in the morning one of those great events, or even victories. Not to mention even making it to the next Sabbath, month, year. There is also something that is very foreign to SDAs, and that is people do praise and worship God because He has blessed them , delivered, them "in spite" of themselves, in spite of their sins, their unfaithfulness, their failings. That is HUGE for some, because they realize very well how undeserving they are.
Who said we had to be at a certain point of "perfection" or "righteousness" before we praise and worship God? How perfect were the COI, once they crossed the Red Sea? We know they had many, many more challenges after that. how perfect was David? He had some serious issues with women and just transferring that "great warrior king"/leader image to his family. Then who, on earth, makes that determination? Because now we are attempting to judge the heart and/or intentions by the "outward appearance". God has already said in the New and Old Testaments that man cannot do this, but that it is He that makes the determination, because He only can see the heart and know the intentions.
So, we must be careful that we don't get into the dangerous position of requriing more than God of a person, or persons other than ourselves. Who dtermines the unconverted heart?
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Let me try and make myself clearer, if that is possible (smile). What I am saying is that most, but not all, or a great deal of the music sang today is for emotional reasons, to quiet the savage beast. Music is used as a pick me up or an excuse to justify a bad situation or make one seem like everything will be okay when in fact it will not be. Ellen G White did not give the warning through the vision she saw of them playing the drums etc... because she did not like music with drums. I believe she gave the warning because she saw false worship and was warning against it (some attridbuted the music to the working of the Holy Spirit). I have been very much a part of the music seen and I can tell you of a certainty that music sets the stage and controls the emotions. Now music can be a part of worship but in and of itself it is not worship.
And the problem is that there are extremes on both sides of the isle. Some hyms and the way they sing them are so dead as to be destructive to the atmospher of praise. On the other hand some praise music white and black is so wordly and bent on a emotional response via instruments and rythm as to be totally reality altering. So the happy medium is to make sure that the music is of such a place and the musicians of such that it is design for God and God alone. The greatest danger is when the wordly is mixed with the spiritual leaving the person confused between a love song and being in love with God. Both have a driving force (worldy and spiritual) but the problem is great care must be taken in keeping them separate. I love gospel music and I love certain hyms but I can tell you that certain songs are design to elicite emotional responses not bring praise or worship to God.
First of all, I want to ask the admins if these posts regarding music/worship should be moved, and I apologize for my part in hijacking the thread.
Ok so Christian " some great event". You are right usually something on the line of deliverance or victory in battles, etc. Correct. However isn't that also what happens on an individual basis. When are we not praising and worshipping God, if it is not on the edge or the heels of some great victory, deliverance, and/or event in our lives. These days, should we not consider even waking up in the morning one of those great events, or even victories. Not to mention even making it to the next Sabbath, month, year. There is also something that is very foreign to SDAs, and that is people do praise and worship God because He has blessed them , delivered, them "in spite" of themselves, in spite of their sins, their unfaithfulness, their failings. That is HUGE for some, because they realize very well how undeserving they are.
Who said we had to be at a certain point of "perfection" or "righteousness" before we praise and worship God? How perfect were the COI, once they crossed the Red Sea? We know they had many, many more challenges after that. how perfect was David? He had some serious issues with women and just transferring that "great warrior king"/leader image to his family. Then who, on earth, makes that determination? Because now we are attempting to judge the heart and/or intentions by the "outward appearance". God has already said in the New and Old Testaments that man cannot do this, but that it is He that makes the determination, because He only can see the heart and know the intentions.
So, we must be careful that we don't get into the dangerous position of requriing more than God of a person, or persons other than ourselves. Who dtermines the unconverted heart?
-
The one SDA Conservative "leader" who I'm talking about -when he started advocating "conservatism" to peddle particular moral compromises and stereotypes about particular ethnic groups, I noticed at this precise time, that the value of his house plummeted by over $100,000 -in a single year according to land records in 2009
In my view, I wonder if leaders such as this are really "credible", when they are in the position that they are borrowers who forseeably will not be able to repay. For example, if you are in your 50s, and your house has plummeted by this much - you be paying well into your 70s especially, if the mortgage to begin with was above your means.
When I see this sort of thing happening, and yet the SDA Leader has been reknown for "peddling" moral compromise and has been fixated on rubbishing "progressivism" and defending exploitation of others, including women - then this is indicative to me that he is in so much debt because he's evil, as the bible says that the evil will borrow and never repay. Funny that these said leaders want to appear self righteous vis a vis "progressives" such as myself - but I'm not in the predicament he is in. I think we really need to look at the predicament America is in - the American dream is in - in terms of whether or not God is finally judging this country for the excesses of its conservatism.
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You are clear, Christian, but what you are doing is making a judgement on the intent and response to most of music sang today.
What is wrong with an emotional response to God through music? Who is not moved(some expressions more demonstrative that others) when music, spoken word, or prayer reminds them of Who God is in their lives? Is that not part of the ministry of music during services, to prepare the congregations hearts for the preached/spoken Word? Granted, that emotional response should be followed up by some solid life changing decisions and actions, but exactly when is this decision for a relationship with God made through pure logic? When is it not compromised of a wide range of emotions.....guilt, shame, grief?
BTW, I have been meaning to ask you. Weren't you at BSDA, and if yes, what was your ID there? You sound very familiar. Like we have had this discussion before. ;D
Let me try and make myself clearer, if that is possible (smile). What I am saying is that most, but not all, or a great deal of the music sang today is for emotional reasons, to quiet the savage beast. Music is used as a pick me up or an excuse to justify a bad situation or make one seem like everything will be okay when in fact it will not be. Ellen G White did not give the warning through the vision she saw of them playing the drums etc... because she did not like music with drums. I believe she gave the warning because she saw false worship and was warning against it (some attridbuted the music to the working of the Holy Spirit). I have been very much a part of the music seen and I can tell you of a certainty that music sets the stage and controls the emotions. Now music can be a part of worship but in and of itself it is not worship.
And the problem is that there are extremes on both sides of the isle. Some hyms and the way they sing them are so dead as to be destructive to the atmospher of praise. On the other hand some praise music white and black is so wordly and bent on a emotional response via instruments and rythm as to be totally reality altering. So the happy medium is to make sure that the music is of such a place and the musicians of such that it is design for God and God alone. The greatest danger is when the wordly is mixed with the spiritual leaving the person confused between a love song and being in love with God. Both have a driving force (worldy and spiritual) but the problem is great care must be taken in keeping them separate. I love gospel music and I love certain hyms but I can tell you that certain songs are design to elicite emotional responses not bring praise or worship to God.
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My 2 cents for the day -
From Ted Wilson's inaugural speech mocking "emotional worship" - I wonder if he feels that this is more a threat to the church than these kind of scenarios as exhibited in the link http://www.adherents.com/people/pn/Elizaphan_Ntakirutimana.html
which the Adventist church has had a number of pastors involved in.
I wonder if Pastor Ntakirutimana was "conservative"?
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Yes, I was some years back, but I don't even remember what my name was. I was on a number of sites, Maritime, and about four others of which I don't remember my names there either (smile). -----And I am not judging,the things I am saying I have experienced first hand. It is like when Israel was in apostacy and the prophets would try and call them back, until they understiood their condition it was impossible for restoration. Why do you think the Prophet relayed her dream about the things happening in Indiana?Obviously, she was addressing a situation that she was, through the Holy Spirit, allowed to see to warn people of the coming false worship. And then she would go on to contrast the difference in false worship and true. "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spiri." You know if you look into Baal worship you will find that a great deal of their worship was perfomed through emotional gestures. But when you read the Bible whether it is Elisha fleeing from God or the confrontation with baal worshipers on the mount God always showed up in the stillness and quietness and in gentleness.
Princess, I am not against you in any way or form. I think you will notice that I have said that both sides often take an extreme position making both wrong. Some call all Gospel music wrong and others want to do away with the Hymnal completely. But what I am trying to say is the we must find the position that is exceptable to God and brings people to him and does not mix the worldly with the spirittual. And we must above all as Chritians not allow music to separate us from or neighbor or from God.
You are clear, Christian, but what you are doing is making a judgement on the intent and response to most of music sang today.
What is wrong with an emotional response to God through music? Who is not moved(some expressions more demonstrative that others) when music, spoken word, or prayer reminds them of Who God is in their lives? Is that not part of the ministry of music during services, to prepare the congregations hearts for the preached/spoken Word? Granted, that emotional response should be followed up by some solid life changing decisions and actions, but exactly when is this decision for a relationship with God made through pure logic? When is it not compromised of a wide range of emotions.....guilt, shame, grief?
BTW, I have been meaning to ask you. Weren't you at BSDA, and if yes, what was your ID there? You sound very familiar. Like we have had this discussion before. ;D
Let me try and make myself clearer, if that is possible (smile). What I am saying is that most, but not all, or a great deal of the music sang today is for emotional reasons, to quiet the savage beast. Music is used as a pick me up or an excuse to justify a bad situation or make one seem like everything will be okay when in fact it will not be. Ellen G White did not give the warning through the vision she saw of them playing the drums etc... because she did not like music with drums. I believe she gave the warning because she saw false worship and was warning against it (some attridbuted the music to the working of the Holy Spirit). I have been very much a part of the music seen and I can tell you of a certainty that music sets the stage and controls the emotions. Now music can be a part of worship but in and of itself it is not worship.
And the problem is that there are extremes on both sides of the isle. Some hyms and the way they sing them are so dead as to be destructive to the atmospher of praise. On the other hand some praise music white and black is so wordly and bent on a emotional response via instruments and rythm as to be totally reality altering. So the happy medium is to make sure that the music is of such a place and the musicians of such that it is design for God and God alone. The greatest danger is when the wordly is mixed with the spiritual leaving the person confused between a love song and being in love with God. Both have a driving force (worldy and spiritual) but the problem is great care must be taken in keeping them separate. I love gospel music and I love certain hyms but I can tell you that certain songs are design to elicite emotional responses not bring praise or worship to God.
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My 2 cents:
According to this article, churches such as the SDA Church have not shown any remorse or apology in their role of fueling division among peoples and fostering genocide. This is what I 'm talking about with respect to GC President Ted Wilson's inaugural speech - he did not do this in my opinion, - and in fact what he did speak out against in terms of music - has me wondering if his speech is an instrument designed to further fuel division amoung people. The article below notes how - several adventist "pastors" were implicated in the Rwandan genocide and fueled divisions among people
http://www.hirondellenews.com/content/view/7376/79/
In a 2008, statement, the General Conference denied that a rebel leader Nkunda, who news reports stated was implicated in genocides and affiliated himself with the SDA church - was not a representation of adventist lifestyle and values. But the last time I've counted, there have been at least 6 Adventist Pastors who've gone to jail for being involved in the Rwandan genocide - these were "conservative" pastors. Is fueling division, and a sociopathy a modus operandi that "leaders" fail to speak out against or not apologize for?
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EGW's statement notwithstanding...........what the Bible says pleases God is worship that is submitted with a contrite heart, a humble spirit, etc. It doesn't say what "actions" just the condition of one's relationship with God.
I know that most will say that EGW's statement stands on it's on and is clear, but I submit that there is more it. Especially when in the Bible trums were used, tambourines dancing and shouting(Miriam leading the COI after crossing the Red Sea), David's dancing before the Ark. NONE of these displeased God. He did not chastise anyone for what form their praise took, but when theyir heart was not right. Once again, we need to be careful about requiring more than God. EGW wrote about a specific situation, and then gives very sketchy details about what happens. Does she address the motives of the people? This seems very contrary especially when Sis. white was know to shout and clap her hands, pass out when in "vision", or in communication with God. Do we want to believe that God doesn't communicate with anyone in this manner, That EGW was that special? Christian, you aked me to a debate, and I know we are debating emotional response, but for me this is.....a debate. We will still be friends when we agree to disagree on this one point to go on to agree on something else, right? ?
Yes, I was some years back, but I don't even remember what my name was. I was on a number of sites, Maritime, and about four others of which I don't remember my names there either (smile). -----And I am not judging,the things I am saying I have experienced first hand. It is like when Israel was in apostacy and the prophets would try and call them back, until they understiood their condition it was impossible for restoration. Why do you think the Prophet relayed her dream about the things happening in Indiana?Obviously, she was addressing a situation that she was, through the Holy Spirit, allowed to see to warn people of the coming false worship. And then she would go on to contrast the difference in false worship and true. "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spiri." You know if you look into Baal worship you will find that a great deal of their worship was perfomed through emotional gestures. But when you read the Bible whether it is Elisha fleeing from God or the confrontation with baal worshipers on the mount God always showed up in the stillness and quietness and in gentleness.
Princess, I am not against you in any way or form. I think you will notice that I have said that both sides often take an extreme position making both wrong. Some call all Gospel music wrong and others want to do away with the Hymnal completely. But what I am trying to say is the we must find the position that is exceptable to God and brings people to him and does not mix the worldly with the spirittual. And we must above all as Chritians not allow music to separate us from or neighbor or from God.
[
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Guys,
I didn't mean to cause an uproar when I asked about Ted's ethicity(sp). Since I am not SDA, I had no idea whether he was black,white, Asian or purple with pink polka dots. From your posts, most of you did not appear to like him or what he what he was doing for the SDA church. Sorry for the ruckus....
mrst
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Here is one person who does like Ted Wilson and what he stands for. I have many friends who do not read or comment on this forum who also appreciate his stand on many issues. :praying: for him. :sabbath:
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What has been discussed here concerns the structure of The Seventh-day Adventist Church. Do we have a clear picture of how our Church functions? We do have a General Conference with a President, he may have strong convictions and express them in his talks and in his writings. Some president might excert more authority than others, but Ted Wilson has very little to say where you and I are located. There are eight other presidents, one for each Division of the General Conference. There is also a new President of the North American Division of the General Conference. Depending on how he rules he might have much more to say about the work of the Church in North America than the President of the General Conference.
But in some of these Divisions the Union Presidents make their own decision more suitable to the local ares. Then there are also some Conference Presidents who make their own decisions. And in some areas each local church make their own rules quite independent of the wishes of their Conference President.
So all this talk about the rulership of Ted Wilson seems kind of far fetched and seems done by those who do not consider how our World Church functions.
Yes, there seems to be a change with Ted Wilson, but I feel it is too early to draw a conclusion how it will turn out. Jan Paulsen - a Norwegian - seemed to rule through his Vice Presdents and associates. It seemed like he let them make their own decisions, each in their own area of resposibility with GC institutions, property and finances. It is possible that Ted Wilson will attempt to make more personal decisions, when he gets away with it. Most probably he will not get away with it in the long run unless he negotiates with other leaders. Even if he expresses his desires in strong speeches, other presidents on different levels might still have to make their own decisions to fit the local conditions.
Jan Paulsen made it quite clear in a TV program some time before he left office. He stated that changes do not come through the General Conference but they take place in the local church. It is the local church which decides how they will tackle race and cultural issues. So, start with your local church.
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Gurl, I don't know him enough to like him or not. I just know he is caucasian as all other GC Presidents before him and pretty far to the right. As Johann says, his words mean very little to the rank and file, there are many layers between us and him.
Guys,
I didn't mean to cause an uproar when I asked about Ted's ethicity(sp). Since I am not SDA, I had no idea whether he was black,white, Asian or purple with pink polka dots. From your posts, most of you did not appear to like him or what he what he was doing for the SDA church. Sorry for the ruckus....
mrst
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Princess, of course absolutley. the argument is never more valuable or loved than the individual you are debating with (smile). Plus I find you to be a most sincere person. I also think that our positions are not as far apart as you might think. I simply over the years being a musician and singer know the difference between generated emotions for the most part, and situational emotional responses. Having said that I am not implying that all emotional responses are not real. What I am saying is that I can take music and make you have an emotional response based on the rythmatics of the music. And I can also blend physical love songs with spiritual love songs and have you totally fooled as to your emotions. Once again it is the choir director that for the most part keeps us apart and many out of heaven. Would there were no music at all and we (black and white) worshiped together than what we have today that keeps us apart and at war with each other,
EGW's statement notwithstanding...........what the Bible says pleases God is worship that is submitted with a contrite heart, a humble spirit, etc. It doesn't say what "actions" just the condition of one's relationship with God.
I know that most will say that EGW's statement stands on it's on and is clear, but I submit that there is more it. Especially when in the Bible trums were used, tambourines dancing and shouting(Miriam leading the COI after crossing the Red Sea), David's dancing before the Ark. NONE of these displeased God. He did not chastise anyone for what form their praise took, but when theyir heart was not right. Once again, we need to be careful about requiring more than God. EGW wrote about a specific situation, and then gives very sketchy details about what happens. Does she address the motives of the people? This seems very contrary especially when Sis. white was know to shout and clap her hands, pass out when in "vision", or in communication with God. Do we want to believe that God doesn't communicate with anyone in this manner, That EGW was that special? Christian, you aked me to a debate, and I know we are debating emotional response, but for me this is.....a debate. We will still be friends when we agree to disagree on this one point to go on to agree on something else, right? ?
Yes, I was some years back, but I don't even remember what my name was. I was on a number of sites, Maritime, and about four others of which I don't remember my names there either (smile). -----And I am not judging,the things I am saying I have experienced first hand. It is like when Israel was in apostacy and the prophets would try and call them back, until they understiood their condition it was impossible for restoration. Why do you think the Prophet relayed her dream about the things happening in Indiana?Obviously, she was addressing a situation that she was, through the Holy Spirit, allowed to see to warn people of the coming false worship. And then she would go on to contrast the difference in false worship and true. "The things you have described as taking place in Indiana, the Lord has shown me would take place just before the close of probation. Every uncouth thing will be demonstrated. There will be shouting, with drums, music, and dancing. The senses of rational beings will become so confused that they cannot be trusted to make right decisions. And this is called the moving of the Holy Spiri." You know if you look into Baal worship you will find that a great deal of their worship was perfomed through emotional gestures. But when you read the Bible whether it is Elisha fleeing from God or the confrontation with baal worshipers on the mount God always showed up in the stillness and quietness and in gentleness.
Princess, I am not against you in any way or form. I think you will notice that I have said that both sides often take an extreme position making both wrong. Some call all Gospel music wrong and others want to do away with the Hymnal completely. But what I am trying to say is the we must find the position that is exceptable to God and brings people to him and does not mix the worldly with the spirittual. And we must above all as Chritians not allow music to separate us from or neighbor or from God.
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The Truth of the matter is that people use "conservatism" to mean morality and posit "liberalism" aas being immoral -and they use the label to describe some of their societies as "conservatism" - but is this so? Many of the people who call themselves "conservative" are really quite permissive and immoral and actually cling to conservatism because of their "conservative" and immoral ideas about specific races of people - these people believe often times in racial injustice, lynchings of particular races, etc., fornication, etc. - "conservatism" has not meant that these people adhere to the 10 commandments any more than the next guy/girl. In fact, some of the societies claiming to be "conservative" - and who claim to hold the monopoly on opposition to "homosexuality" - actually condone and celebrate heterosexual fornication and as a result - are plagued by a high preponderance of HIV/AIDS which is contracted through such. There seems to be a bid to posit anyone who supports Liberal politics in the form of racial justice for example - as permissive. But I have found that some of the "conservative" persons who claim to be moral, support all manner of moral compromise, dishonesty, racial injustice and social injustice, as well as promiscuity.
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I guess my definition of being a conservative is different from lots of others.. Mine is simply - What would Jesus do? How much more simple and conservative is that?
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My 2 cents for today - then I have to get back to what I've been doing. Some of the Church's conservatives - including those hired for "campus" ministries - are some of the most morally compromised of all - they want to focus in on the "worship" styles affiliated with a few ethnic groups - but don't want to at all criticize harmful cultural practices of other groups - and yet hold their own "pet groups" up as examples for the church - when this is not per se the case.
What has become clear to me - is that some of these conservatives with Ted Wilson included are really concerned with nationalism and race - more so - than they are with advocating for a real and sincere christianity.
Allegiances and alliances are formed around nation and race - rather than what is right or correct.
What Ted Wilson seems to not realize in my opinion, is that you don't have to be Adventist - and you can be Christian - and be honest, sincere, pure,etc. -and that you can be a conservative adventist - and yet support debauchery, exploitation, dishonesty, etc.
In my opinion, Ted Wilson's inaugural speech indicates that he wants to attack "ethnic groups" and malign their christianity, even when he knows next to nothing about the substance of these groups' christianity other than their musical worship is different than others.
Something is wrong when you have conservative leaders applauding SDAs who are engaged in womanizing, exploiting others, dishonesty, etc. In my opinion, Ted Wilson is terming what is right - as "wrong" and what is "wrong" as right - in some of his speeches.
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You might be right - or you might be wrong - and neither might help you achieve your goal. The place where the movement takes place is neither by mass suggesetions nor rulership. The Holy Spirit works on a single person, and that single person prays for the Holy Spirit with someone else. Changes for better or for worse take place in the local church, regardless of what any president says or writes.
This is how a revival is achieved. It will never be done by an order from the president. It never has, and it never will. Now, will you be the person through whom the Holy Spirit wil ignite a revivval in your local church?
Shall I give you a nickel for your two cents?
My 2 cents for today - then I have to get back to what I've been doing. Some of the Church's conservatives - including those hired for "campus" ministries - are some of the most morally compromised of all - they want to focus in on the "worship" styles affiliated with a few ethnic groups - but don't want to at all criticize harmful cultural practices of other groups - and yet hold their own "pet groups" up as examples for the church - when this is not per se the case.
What has become clear to me - is that some of these conservatives with Ted Wilson included are really concerned with nationalism and race - more so - than they are with advocating for a real and sincere christianity.
Allegiances and alliances are formed around nation and race - rather than what is right or correct.
What Ted Wilson seems to not realize in my opinion, is that you don't have to be Adventist - and you can be Christian - and be honest, sincere, pure,etc. -and that you can be a conservative adventist - and yet support debauchery, exploitation, dishonesty, etc.
In my opinion, Ted Wilson's inaugural speech indicates that he wants to attack "ethnic groups" and malign their christianity, even when he knows next to nothing about the substance of these groups' christianity other than their musical worship is different than others.
Something is wrong when you have conservative leaders applauding SDAs who are engaged in womanizing, exploiting others, dishonesty, etc. In my opinion, Ted Wilson is terming what is right - as "wrong" and what is "wrong" as right - in some of his speeches.
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The Truth of the matter is that people use "conservatism" to mean morality and posit "liberalism" aas being immoral -and they use the label to describe some of their societies as "conservatism" - but is this so? Many of the people who call themselves "conservative" are really quite permissive and immoral and actually cling to conservatism because of their "conservative" and immoral ideas about specific races of people - these people believe often times in racial injustice, lynchings of particular races, etc., fornication, etc. - "conservatism" has not meant that these people adhere to the 10 commandments any more than the next guy/girl. In fact, some of the societies claiming to be "conservative" - and who claim to hold the monopoly on opposition to "homosexuality" - actually condone and celebrate heterosexual fornication and as a result - are plagued by a high preponderance of HIV/AIDS which is contracted through such. There seems to be a bid to posit anyone who supports Liberal politics in the form of racial justice for example - as permissive. But I have found that some of the "conservative" persons who claim to be moral, support all manner of moral compromise, dishonesty, racial injustice and social injustice, as well as promiscuity.
This rendition or version is only in your own mind that windows your own convictions of which are among the worst definitions of other clear minds that do not have these traits in their heart.
Liberalism and conservative means a whole lot different to me. Liberalism to me is rebellion against truth, justification for all ones own desires and demands. conservative means to me a person that is very humble and bending to the ways of Bibical wisdom for the respect of God and man. It is either one way or the other and that Characterism comes out of the portholes of the eyes and mouth very clear once statements like this are made.
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Some have asked - if I don't like the SDA Church - why don't I get out of it. But the truth is that the SDA Church - or at least some members of it, have had a deleterious effect on persons originally outside of the church. This church deserves to be critiqued for its negative impact on society. I'm thinking of one, conservative SDA who likes to think of himself as a leader, involved in ministries involving students, who wears his conservative bonifides on his sleeve and his opposition to "progressivism." -but his ministry is really a "tribal" ministry driven by tribalistic sentiment against others. He'd have you think he's opposed to progressivism because it's the christian thing to do -but it is really because he supports exploitation and wrongdoing and compromise in my opinion. Although this person is one of the loudest speakers against women's ordination, gay marriage, against evolution- this person supports the concept of "stealing" as well as secrecy where even Ellen G. White spoke out against in her writings - do a search on "stealing" in her writings. This "leader" has then used what has been obtained through "stealing" to smear the character and religion of victims who've been "stolen" from . Ellen G. White clearly states in her writings that the "theives" are the one's who've wronged others, but this leader has portrayed the situation as if the "thieves" have been wronged and sinned against by being the recipient of "stolen" goods. In the real world however, being the recipient of "stolen goods" is a crime but not so for this overzealous and patronizing tribalistic leader who is interestingly enough the SDA Church has set loose to poison the minds of America's young people. The bible is also "clear" on this subject, but this "conservative" leader seems to support this concept as well as dishonesty.This leader is speaking against women's ordination, but quite clearly he supports exploitation of others. Ellen G. White states that the bible demands "right doing" in all circumstances and is against all species of dishonesty - but this "leader" is essentially saying this is not so. This leader has reached presumptions and conclusions and joined to support the thief - even when he was not there when the "thief" was involved in the theft. So the "conservative" leader himself is joining in on the "dishonesty" choosing to reach judgements and presumptions about a theft, of which he does not even have first hand knowledge. But why "worry" about said person? This person likes to think of himself as a "rising" star within Adventism. But outside of Adventism, he's a nobody and viewed as an ungentleman, and people just look at him as an envious person looking to bring others down and as a person who has come to embody a cheapness in the sense that conceivably he will never be able to repay, but will always be a borrower - the cheapness he embodies matches the cheapness he's directed at others. I'm personally reminded of some of the Adventist Pastors involved in genocide when I read his writings.
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Ted Wilson in my opinion from his inaugural speech - is conservative as are many Adventists - because deep down in side he supports the immoral grounds which are "conservative" upon which America was founded - that of exploitation of women, slavery, lynching, etc. People who are often drawn to this church for its conservative ethos share these same beliefs. Their conservativism is more so defined by the beliefs of tribalism that they have towards other groups rather than their adherance to a Christian walk. From my experience, I've known baptists and other non-sda christians who were more moral than many "conservative" adventists in that they believed in honesty, social justice, and observing the 10 commandments with exception to the sabbath.
The adventist Church has some very low characters which Ted Wilson has not spoken out against as far as I can tell. Pastors who've been arrested for genocide.
In my opinion, some of the conservative 'leaders" who the SDA Church has hired to infiltrate young minds are little different from Pastors implicated in genocides. Just because some one is a Adventist "pastor" etc., should not exempt this person from critique. There are adventist campus leaders who believe in fornication, and in exploitation of women, yet are ardent spokepersons against women's ordination - how hypocritical can one get? I'm led to believe that this kind of genocidal tribalism is part of the ethos of Adventism which is perpetuated by its leaders. Adventism will only become more honest when it is able to critique its genocidal pastors, persons who believe in Trokosi or "witchraft" on the sly, or female genital mutilation as much as its leaders want to criticize Jazz, or other "emotional" forms of music. Gospel choirs are not participating in genocides. So why the silence about genocidal pastors who are adventist - from the leadership in the church?
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Jise, it is interesting to hear your views, particularly in the context of the outcry from so many quarters that the church and its leadership are flaming liberals who are leading our young people away from Christianity.
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Even if Mr. Ted Wilson succeeded in protecting the Adventist Church from "outside" influences, the church would still have tares within it - people who although they profess christianity are not living christianly.
I disagree with Mr. Wilson I believe - I think Adventism is more threatened from within than it is than from without - it can in fact learn how to be more christian from other christian faiths and persons coming from such faiths into the SDA Church. It's only an attitude of arrogance to think that only adventists can teach others and not vice versa.
It's sad when someone is judged immoral merely on account of "emotional" worship and/or not growing up in the SDA faith - and when their honesty, and adhering to the 10 commandments is overlooked.
It is also sad when persons who don't listen to "emotional worship" music, yet, exploit others, lie about others, fornicate - are not critiqued or called out as a problem within adventism by the church leadership. If conservatism necessarily equated to christian behavior and morality, why is it that some societies that call themselves "conservative" are visited in high preponderence with plagues that are often associated with fornication? These societies allege "homosexuality" is wrong as is women's ordination. But is not it hypocritical to talk of "homosexuality" and yet have an industry of heterosexual fornication that is more of an industry than than any economic concern- to advocate against women's ordination, yet support exploitation of women, rape of women, unbiblical attitudes towards women? Is for example, a stance of being against ordination for women really a valid stance if it's coming from a person who supports "exploitation" of women t? Are such people really fighting for what's correct or for an unbiblical inversion of what is really important to Jesus and God?
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I have found that I have different ideals than many "conservative" adventists that has to do with my upbringing. There are many adventists who come from a culture or country where "caste" is a way of life. There are also many adventists coming from countries that participated with Western empires in slavery and human subjugation. What I've found is some of the leaders in the Adventist Church hailing from these backgrounds - although they want to portray themselves as if they are "holier than thou" than their liberal counterparts - these people have different ideals from me and others who I grew up with in the non-adventist faith -some of these persons coming from cultures of "caste" and with a culture where ancient hatreds and grievances still hold sway -believe in dishonesty, exploitation, and other unchristian behavior - and seem to think that simply giving the lable "conservative" to this immoral behavior - makes this behavior christian. The real truth is that many such persons are attracted to "conservatism" more for the sociopathy bound up within conservatism rather than conservatism's adherence to the christian faith. Caste is a way of life in many parts of the world, and there are some Adventists charged with a modicum of "leadership", - who are determined to work to keep caste and immoral social control of certain ethnic groups in the USA very much in place. Can you imagine if persons in the modern era who are American citizens would take up and move to another country and advocate for the citizens indigenous to that country to be treated as 2nd class citizens as those citizens historically were treated in that country? This would be unconsciounable - but this happens everyday here in America. Perhpas, this explains why Mr. Wilson delivered his inaugural the way he did - does he have sympathy for persons who do this?
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Adventists who are presidents of Adventist Conferences or in the USA in the Church bureacracy have little credibility at all to me - if they hail from countries where "caste" is a way of life and/or that participated in transatlantic slavery - and yet they call themselves "conservative" and proceed to denigrate the musical expressions of certain ethnic groups in the US.
It's pretty obvious to me that they are peddling tribalism as religion. I think they have some nerve and audacity to posit themselves as the guardians of pure and authentic christianity. Instead, they are the "clowns" that they allege others to be. Some of them are highly upset that we are living in a modern world, where "caste" is no longer supposed to rule - and by hard work, and merit, some who would have been oppressed by caste in their societies, now have achieved great things professionally, have achieved a measure of prosperity and have moved above our "station' in life, and even surpassed many of them. It's become quite clear to me that that ministry of some "conservative adventists" is really a ministry of tribalism, envy- it is akin to adventist pastors involved in the Rwandan genocide. The Adventist Church has to adress the question of whether or not this has become an Adventist ethos and way of life. This tribalism. This tribalism is very pronounced in the adventist church more so than some other faiths.
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OK?! LOL!!!
So Jise, I was with you for a bit there, but there seems to be a method to your madness at this point. Besides ranting about the conservatives, I am not sure what that point is. The conservatives will be exactly that....conservative. You can't change them. Not saying that ;obera;s ought not try to be heard also, but this struggle is not new.
Jise, it is interesting to hear your views, particularly in the context of the outcry from so many quarters that the church and its leadership are flaming liberals who are leading our young people away from Christianity.
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I have been an Seventh-day Adventist for over 50 years, and I still haven't come to a conclusion of how to define a conservative or a liberal. If we want to claim the name of SDA, how about just accepting Jesus as our Savior and follow the beliefs that we said we believe at our baptism and the decision to join the SDA church. That shouldn't be so hard :)
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To many the two terms "conservative" and "libeal" are like two pegs on the wall. On one they hang everything they like. On the other they hang everything they dislike. On which depends on how the the terms sounds in their ears - or how their neighbors think they sound.
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Well, I have been SDA all my life, and I have to say I consider myself liberal. Oh yeah that undistinguishable word in my last post is "liberal". LOL!!!
Anyway, I wear jewelry, makeup(at times), go to a church that doesnt'have the traditional conservative, European style worship service, lots of demonstrative praise and worhsip going on. it would to most consdering themselves "conservative" be described as "emotional", I guess. The music does vary and we appreciate music well done, as oppose to stay with a specific genre, but I will say that traditional hymns and "urban" gospel are on equal footing. Oh yes lots of instruments.
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Di, I knew all this before you ever wrote this. My above definition still stands. There is no scripture that claims force to the recommendations and examples that are set to follow Jesus and not our own likes and dislikes. For as many as you can find in scripture that you can wear jewelry, I can find much more that shows not to. In fact I just heard a whole sermon that verifies this truth and why. I think it was Dwight Nelson. He spared nothing. I might be mistaken because I listen to all the sermons. That is when you can tell who is who as I compare to what I have read from SP and Biblical.
Actually Armageddon will be where the two finally separate. ;) That is the road this leads to in the end. Those who comply with the "Word" and fully understand and connect to God or ones own versions on how they want to understand to suit their own desires. Never ever would I ever call myself a liberal. Even is by some reason it was OK I still would not because liberal to me means permissive of most everthing and turning your head to rules. Can one just imagine how worse the world will be when finally all is permissible. We are almost there. The Bible version of what I am trying to say is ...The good will seem bad and the bad will seem good. So here we are. and to Jise...his problem is not understanding "perfection"..........and considers a whole different meaning to individual "growing" which can only be done in a meek, humble spirit but yet tags everyone to their imperfections whether they claim being Liberal or conservative. He fails to take into fact the words INtentional and Nonintentional. Example: when in doubt wear the jewelry and just keep :hamster: I do know one thing, not one tidbit or ounce of "vanity" will enter the gates. Does jewelry give one vanity??? Sure does. I like it and therefore will not touch it. IF I get to heaven I want to go the way I came with nothing in between or even take the chance let along cause someone else to stumble and miss out.
Now if we are talking Political liberalism or Conservative, that also is a division coming from the lack of example and understanding to force a nation to give whether they want to or not or whether they are poor or rich. You can't change the way of God even using racism, culture, or political maneuvering to change what God states that the poor is with us always. Force always produces distruction anyway you look at it. Force is never God's way only mans. Until judgement!!!
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This war between "conservative" and "liberal" in Christianity goes all the way back to Jesus. He lived in a society where the Pharisees had basically appointed themselves the conservative police. They watched people's clothing, food, who they hung out with, what they did on Sabbath, and enforced the Talmudic law. The Saducees were the elite, wealthy conservatives. Jesus was a flaming liberal who threw their conservatism right back in their faces. He taught that what we do, we should do for others, not for God; he broke their Sabbath laws; he broke their food laws; he pulled the law out of the mire it was in and showed that it was fluid. Later, the apostles had to deal with Christians who tried to impose Judaic rules regarding clean and unclean meat, circumcision, and so forth. Eventually Christianity was overtaken by the conservatives and what ensued was the Dark Ages. With the liberal enlightenment of the Rennaisance came the birth of protestantism, which was quickly hijacked by some like Savonarolla and Calvin. Never have religious conservatives been able to establish or rule a successful society. It wasn't until brighter, progressive minds won out in Geneva that Switzerland turned from the iron fisted Calvinist conservatives and became a shining light. William the Silent crushed conservative rule in Holland, freed it from religious law, and made it the only country in Europe with true freedom of religion, and the home of some of the greatest minds, because they could operate in freedom from the conservative religious oppression that crushed progress everywhere else.
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Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, Murcielago!
Tinka, I was putting that out there for folks who don't me. We have already had this discussionand gree to disagree. ;D
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I use to have this crushing feeling that compelled me to tell, no battle others, on the merits of not wearing jewelry or listening to worldly music etc... But now I say to you do what you want, only God will be the judge. Either Ellen White is right or she is wrong. The problem I have is the confusion that is brought about by people who profess one thing and then do another. Or, they find it necessary to change the fundamental doctrines of the church because they have a taste for some luxury that they have labeled not all that bad. The fact of the matter is that the Adventist Church was founded on the principles of modesty of dress, diet, and the belief in the Spirit of Prophecy as revealed through Ellen. G. White. What happens is that they from the inside try to conform the church to the image that is exceptable to them in in so doing Aline the church with a more worldly exceptable stand. The problem is that the church like the ark is suppose to be built with only one type of wood to stand the coming flood.
The admonishment given on dress, music and the like were given to prepare the individual for the coming storm that is in the very near future. And for the minor storms that we are facing now. The admonishment on diet, worldly music, jewelry etc.. were never given as an option based on personal likes or dislikes they were given to buffet us from the rain and apostasy that is to come. So here is my warning to whoever might listen. God spoke through Ellen G. White on the issues of modesty, jewelry, music etc... do not think that if you disregard her writings you will be able to withstand the coming storm because like the flood that swept the antediluvian away, you will like wise meet the same fate. Rebellion takes many forms, and sometimes it is not even recognized by the ones rebelling until it is to late. Better that you went and started your own religion than to try and make the truth a lie by action or words of mouth. Either Ellen G. White is a liar or you are in that you are fooling yourself.
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, Murcielago!
Tinka, I was putting that out there for folks who don't me. We have already had this discussionand gree to disagree. ;D
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I just don't want anyone to misunderstand, I have speculated that everyone knows the Adventist major cornerstone is Jesus and the bible is the bases for all of the revelations concerning the pillars of the church.
I use to have this crushing feeling that compelled me to tell, no battle others, on the merits of not wearing jewelry or listening to worldly music etc... But now I say to you do what you want, only God will be the judge. Either Ellen White is right or she is wrong. The problem I have is the confusion that is brought about by people who profess one thing and then do another. Or, they find it necessary to change the fundamental doctrines of the church because they have a taste for some luxury that they have labeled not all that bad. The fact of the matter is that the Adventist Church was founded on the principles of modesty of dress, diet, and the belief in the Spirit of Prophecy as revealed through Ellen. G. White. What happens is that they from the inside try to conform the church to the image that is exceptable to them in in so doing Aline the church with a more worldly exceptable stand. The problem is that the church like the ark is suppose to be built with only one type of wood to stand the coming flood.
The admonishment given on dress, music and the like were given to prepare the individual for the coming storm that is in the very near future. And for the minor storms that we are facing now. The admonishment on diet, worldly music, jewelry etc.. were never given as an option based on personal likes or dislikes they were given to buffet us from the rain and apostasy that is to come. So here is my warning to whoever might listen. God spoke through Ellen G. White on the issues of modesty, jewelry, music etc... do not think that if you disregard her writings you will be able to withstand the coming storm because like the flood that swept the antediluvian away, you will like wise meet the same fate. Rebellion takes many forms, and sometimes it is not even recognized by the ones rebelling until it is to late. Better that you went and started your own religion than to try and make the truth a lie by action or words of mouth. Either Ellen G. White is a liar or you are in that you are fooling yourself.
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout, Murcielago!
Tinka, I was putting that out there for folks who don't me. We have already had this discussionand gree to disagree. ;D
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My reasoning too is that it would totally undue me to ever put a peice of jewelry on to deck my body in "vanity" from whom it was created in his likeness (from His love)and for Him while he wore a crown of thorns dripping in blood and rings on my fingers while his hands with nails dripping to cover my behind.... No way. Yes, my views are conservative to the knowledge of this.
Jesus is even too HOly for us to even mention what his supposidly being liberal or conservative coming from a human standpoint. These are men's words meaning of different characteristics no matter what history we want to compare too. It makes no difference nor does the color of skin. I can only look in awe at his earth and people, his creations and be at the same time angry at the devils tricks and feel dismay at the people that fall to it including my shortcomings too. I only know the sadness it brings and know that sadness is also an emotion so intense for the Creator. He has tears I know because we do. We are like HIm only because He wanted to be loved back in the same realm of beings as He.
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I agree with what I believe Mr. Ted Wilson is saying from his inaugural - that some of the outside churches have a different approach to christianity than some of the conservative SDAs - but I differ in the reasons. Too often "conservative" SDAs have equated support for George Bush or conservative political candidates and "issues" as being the same thing as morality and christian ethics - when this is not so - but in fact moral compromise. Look at many of the conservative SDAs - they are no more honest, purer, or more beholden to the 10 commandments than the next person.
When I think of a Christian - I think of someone who is beholden to a certain level of conduct - the 10 commandments and other things specified in the bible. But what I found in the Adventist Church is that listenining to "gospel" music has been more a crime, rather htan whether or not one bears false witness or not, fornicates or does not, exploits others etc. Dishonesty and deception also play a crucial role in painting progressives and progressivism in a dishonest light as necessarily more immoral than the conservative movement.
When SDA Pastors are involved in Genocides, I think it is a fallacy to perpetuate the notion that the threat to Adventism is not within the church from what has come to be an Adventist ethos and way of life, but is only primarily from the outside from persons who support progressive issues such as morality concerning issues such ethnic groups, etc. I find it interesting how some conservative "adventists" who call themselves leaders are so determined to coursen the religious discourse with political terminology and insist on rubbisshing progressivism although progressivism has been conserned with many good ideals, while estolling conservativism although conservatism has been affiliated with promoting injustice and disparities in the way persons from different ethnic groups have been treated.
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Adventist Pastor Ntihanabayo was sentenced for life imprisonment for his role in the Rwandan genocide in 2010. I wonder did he not listen to emotional music, did he keep the sabbath, was he against women's ordination and against the other standard issues such as homosexuality and teaching of evolution? Are there any other issues than these - the article entitled "Rwandan Adventist pastor gets life for genocide" at the link below says that several Adventist and Catholic Clerics have been tried for their implication in the Rwandan genocide.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ieIfP_R8A-6wk-kh0HS-fFnw7gfQ
In many non-SDA Churches, you may rub shoulders with someone who listens to emotional music that is not to Mr. Ted Wilson's liking. In the adventist Church, unfortunately, there is a chance that you could rub shoulders with a Cleric implicated in the Rwandan Genocide or someone with this ethos - and that this may be a "jarring" experience to yes -"christians" coming into the Adventist faith from other denominations.
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I've read from the link below that Ellen White stated that "coloreds" should not seek equality with whites. Ted Wilson is reported to have stated that adventists should believe every word of Ellen White. Did Ms. White make this statement and if so, is Mr. Wilson asking others to believe these words? In my opinion, Mr. Wilson seems to act as if he believes these words, which is in part explained by his attack on "emotional worship." This also explains the actions of other ministry "leaders" hired by the Church.
http://www.oakwood.edu/goldmine/hdoc/blacksda/champ/
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I once stopped my mother when she in her prayer asked God to make her good.
- You don't need to ask God for that, I said, because you are good!
I knew she was a saint because
1. she was always neatly dressed with no ornaments, no jewelry.
2. she read the Spirit of Phropecy
3. she was a vegetarian
4. she understood Justification by Faith
5. she never cared for worldly music
I wondered how some of the good ladies in Church managed to be so good and kind and Christian since they wore jewelry, but someone suggested the devil made them good to make people think it was all right to wear some jewelry.
Was anything wrong that kind of thinking?
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Branson continues by placing that comment in the context of the time and many other statements by the same author. In that context her statement might make more sense, but that also establishes the premise that what she said was not always universally applicable outside of certain context, some of which may not exist in other times and places. It also implies that certain matters that cultures of one time or place hold as universal truth, may not apply to cultures of another time or place. (This would be based on the assumed premise that one adheres to Mrs. White as a prophet.)
On the topic of music, it has been my experience that in taking issue with emotion in worship and music people almost invariably abandon the Bible in favour of other sources to establish the bona fides of their point. Could it be because the Bible clearly and unequivocally supports emotional worship and music?
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Jesus himself answers the question of what makes a person good in Matthew 25.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
I once stopped my mother when she in her prayer asked God to make her good.
- You don't need to ask God for that, I said, because you are good!
I knew she was a saint because
1. she was always neatly dressed with no ornaments, no jewelry.
2. she read the Spirit of Phropecy
3. she was a vegetarian
4. she understood Justification by Faith
5. she never cared for worldly music
I wondered how some of the good ladies in Church managed to be so good and kind and Christian since they wore jewelry, but someone suggested the devil made them good to make people think it was all right to wear some jewelry.
Was anything wrong that kind of thinking?
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No one has every said that wearing jewelry makes you bad it makes you disobedient. The problem is that people want things the way they want them. The problem is many people will be lost because they chose to be disobediant. When Eve took a look at the fruit she new it could make her wise, but God said don't do it. Even the men who wrote the bible were just that MEN or human beings the same as Ellen G. White yet we admonish people to follow the God of the bible or they will be lost. Now I know pleanty of people who are sweet and kind but have rejected the Sabbath knowing full well what God has said. Either Ellen G. White is the truth or she is a liar but she cannot be both. As I have said many times if you don't agree with what the principles of and organization is founded upon, build your own. Why is it necessary for you to try and change something you don't believe in?
I once stopped my mother when she in her prayer asked God to make her good.
- You don't need to ask God for that, I said, because you are good!
I knew she was a saint because
1. she was always neatly dressed with no ornaments, no jewelry.
2. she read the Spirit of Phropecy
3. she was a vegetarian
4. she understood Justification by Faith
5. she never cared for worldly music
I wondered how some of the good ladies in Church managed to be so good and kind and Christian since they wore jewelry, but someone suggested the devil made them good to make people think it was all right to wear some jewelry.
Was anything wrong that kind of thinking?
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I am(because I fall into this category) disobedient to whom? Within my own personal relationship with God(which is the only one that counts), I don't believe that I am disobedient to Him.
No one has every said that wearing jewelry makes you bad it makes you disobedient. The problem is that people want things the way they want them. The problem is many people will be lost because they chose to be disobediant. When Eve took a look at the fruit she new it could make her wise, but God said don't do it. Even the men who wrote the bible were just that MEN or human beings the same as Ellen G. White yet we admonish people to follow the God of the bible or they will be lost. Now I know pleanty of people who are sweet and kind but have rejected the Sabbath knowing full well what God has said. Either Ellen G. White is the truth or she is a liar but she cannot be both. As I have said many times if you don't agree with what the principles of and organization is founded upon, build your own. Why is it necessary for you to try and change something you don't believe in?
I once stopped my mother when she in her prayer asked God to make her good.
- You don't need to ask God for that, I said, because you are good!
I knew she was a saint because
1. she was always neatly dressed with no ornaments, no jewelry.
2. she read the Spirit of Phropecy
3. she was a vegetarian
4. she understood Justification by Faith
5. she never cared for worldly music
I wondered how some of the good ladies in Church managed to be so good and kind and Christian since they wore jewelry, but someone suggested the devil made them good to make people think it was all right to wear some jewelry.
Was anything wrong that kind of thinking?
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Very true. If the Bible doesn't forbid jewelry, emotional worship and music, and so forth, find something else that does.
No one has every said that wearing jewelry makes you bad it makes you disobedient. The problem is that people want things the way they want them. The problem is many people will be lost because they chose to be disobediant. When Eve took a look at the fruit she new it could make her wise, but God said don't do it. Even the men who wrote the bible were just that MEN or human beings the same as Ellen G. White yet we admonish people to follow the God of the bible or they will be lost. Now I know pleanty of people who are sweet and kind but have rejected the Sabbath knowing full well what God has said. Either Ellen G. White is the truth or she is a liar but she cannot be both. As I have said many times if you don't agree with what the principles of and organization is founded upon, build your own. Why is it necessary for you to try and change something you don't believe in?
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Well, I hurriedly responded to one part of this post, and now that I have mroe time, I will respond to the bolded portion.
Christian, SDAs(and every other christian denom) go to great lengths to to prove their doctrines, even their very existence is biblical.
SDAs, have claimed that some of their doctrines were biblical, when in fact, they were just basic corporate policies. The "policy" of not wearing jewelry, in particular weddign bands was never, ever, enforced by the church in countries where the wearing of wedding bands was law, and not just tradition. This means, it could not have been biblical........ever. It if was, like every other doctrine, such as the Sabbath, IJ, etc. it would have been unshakeable , but instead it was clearly flexible. Enforcement would only really work well here in the US, where they could effectively apply salvific value to them. The problem came in whent hey really started sending missionaries to these countries and the missionaries had to wear themt o comply, and then they refused to remove them once back in the US.......why? Because they then knew it was not biblical. GC had no answer to their challenge. EGW didn't even want the church to make doctrine from her words alone. Her words/writings are not extensions of the Bible, only point to what is already there. If it was not expressly mentioned in the Bible, then she more that likely had a very practical reason for a warning for the people of her time. Those conditions may not still exist today.
Next, if indeed this SDA church, is God's established Remnant church, then youc an't tell those of his children you feel are not adhereing to the rules that they should be be there. God can place anybody, anywhere He wants while they work out their relationship with Him. We don't get to say who is ready to be a part of "us". Once again, I ask why we are unwilling to allow God to work with others inHis time, just as he does with us?
No one has every said that wearing jewelry makes you bad it makes you disobedient. The problem is that people want things the way they want them. The problem is many people will be lost because they chose to be disobediant. When Eve took a look at the fruit she new it could make her wise, but God said don't do it. Even the men who wrote the bible were just that MEN or human beings the same as Ellen G. White yet we admonish people to follow the God of the bible or they will be lost. Now I know pleanty of people who are sweet and kind but have rejected the Sabbath knowing full well what God has said. Either Ellen G. White is the truth or she is a liar but she cannot be both. As I have said many times if you don't agree with what the principles of and organization is founded upon, build your own. Why is it necessary for you to try and change something you don't believe in?
I once stopped my mother when she in her prayer asked God to make her good.
- You don't need to ask God for that, I said, because you are good!
I knew she was a saint because
1. she was always neatly dressed with no ornaments, no jewelry.
2. she read the Spirit of Phropecy
3. she was a vegetarian
4. she understood Justification by Faith
5. she never cared for worldly music
I wondered how some of the good ladies in Church managed to be so good and kind and Christian since they wore jewelry, but someone suggested the devil made them good to make people think it was all right to wear some jewelry.
Was anything wrong that kind of thinking?
-
I did not consider my father as great a saint as my mother because he did not have as much time to read the Testimonies. But I was certain he'd make his way to heaven through the great tribulation because he managed to detect the faults of some of the Church leaders. Years later, as I sat by his deathbed I witnessed how he confessed and asked some of those "imperfect" church leaders forgiveness for his former attitude.
When was he at his best in the sight of God?
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You know, Johann, I started to say when he was asking forgiveness from those he had judged, but you know, if we believe that God's sees us through the cleansing blood of Jesus Christ, the your father looked the same to God all the time. He doesn't have to be convinced to see us in a good light, that was already accomplished.........while we were yet in our sins.
I did not consider my father as great a saint as my mother because he did not have as much time to read the Testimonies. But I was certain he'd make his way to heaven through the great tribulation because he managed to detect the faults of some of the Church leaders. Years later, as I sat by his deathbed I witnessed how he confessed and asked some of those "imperfect" church leaders forgiveness for his former attitude.
When was he at his best in the sight of God?
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For some self -styled "leaders", holiness has to do more with "non-emotional" worship, with scandalizing the valid worship of particular ethnic groups.
It is more of a crime and unholy to listen to Walter Hawkins -than to have preachers implicated in gross atrocities -i.e. Rwanda still pastoring in the church. I wonder what music the pastor in this link listened to? Is he embroiled in the "debate" over emotional music which is a code word for "gospel music"? http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ieIfP_R8A-6wk-kh0HS-fFnw7gfQ
Should not holiness be about the sacredness of life, about the truth - as well as the substance of christian faith rather than imagined and made up rules?
Holiness is about not using Churches as instruments of furthering human atrocities - The link above talks about how the arrested pastor was complicit in the death of one of his flock -and this church member ended up being buried in the yard of the Church. Having a church with a high preponderance of people who think emotional music is more of a crime than church members who bear false witness against others and violate the 10 commandments -is an unholy environment. A church with a high preponderance of clerics implicated fueling ethnic animousity and charged for genocide involvement - is an unholy environment.
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Jise, I am impressed! What do you know about the Late Bishop Hawkins? Now I gtos to go to youtube and take alisten to "Marvelous"!
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Honoring Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
“We join with others in remembering the life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. His legacy is one that moves seamlessly across borders and around the globe. May this not be just another holiday, but a day that will cause you to reflect on how far we have come as a nation, how much further we need to be, and how, like this great leader of our time, we can contribute greatly to our communities. Like Dr. King once said ‘Life's most persistent and urgent question is, What are you doing for others?' Our great work of the gospel is to help our fellow man.” – Pastor Dan Jackson, president of the 1.1 million member Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America
A message from the North American Division of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
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Nice reminder. Thanks for sharing Johann!
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Di,
I have to agree with you.. I have read EG White,but that was years ago. I have read the New Testament and the Old Testament and Jesus NEVER said anything about the wearing of jewely or makeup. If that had been important, HE would have said so. What Jesus said was important, was being saved thru HIM, Loving our Neighbor as ourselves, and Loving God with all of our heart, soul and mind. Once we do that, we should not have any time, to look at anyone else to see what their faults are. We have just enough time, taking care of ourselves.
Religion is MAN-MADE AND SO ARE ALL THE RULES that go along with it. That wasn't what Jesus intended when He came. He came to do away with all the rules of the Old Testament, but it seems Man can't live with just the simple rules of Jesus Christ.
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Man never wrote the 10 commandamen ts. There were hand written ordinances of the old testament that were done away with but not the God given 10 commandments that people claim in wrong belief that were done away with. Two different sets of laws.
A good question to ask is why do we wear jewelry?? It definitely is in the bible about the wearing of gold and silver and pearl and costly array. So how do we get rid of that to appease our "vanity". ? Modest in all dress and being? Funny how some denominations other then us know exactly what that scripture means. Mennonite, Amish, and the beginning of SDA foundation that has slid into the progressive "liberal" & others.
Does anyone think that vanity and proudness of jewelry decked on our ears, fingers, hair and toes, ankles, wrists while we are to be good stewards of money given of God will enter the gates while there are humans that sometimes don't have a morsel of food, and nothing to help them to live that many can easily view everywhere? Do you think that we won't be accountable for wasted adornment. For sure we will not take it with us if gates are open to us. God said His people will not do this? So who are we to not practice, stewardship of our time, money, and gifts of ability? Sure we have the choice of displaying it all upon ourselves as we fit into our own characters of "pride" and "vanity". That was the purpose of not wearing it.
Religion is the "Sanctification" of God's word that one is sealed in their belief and can't be moved from truth. "Justification" thru Jesus is the doing of your belief and "Salvation" is the "reward". Trinkets on body and in home may not provide the Golden Ticket. Maybe all the assets we have on this earth will be the only time we will have them??? Sort of the downfall of the richman. But...to each their own time, money, and views.
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Listed below are ways some of the members of Seventh-day Adventist Church in North American are remembering the life of Dr. King:
Atlantic Union
1/17/11 – The Clergy Coalition of the 47th Precinct is sponsoring an interfaith award service recognizing the outstanding academic achievements along with community service of the youth and young adults in honor of the late Dr. Martin Luther King at the North Bronx Seventh-day Adventist Church, 3743 Bronxwood Ave, Bronx, NY. The service will begin at 5:00 p.m.
Columbia Union
1/15/11 – Join Miracle Temple Seventh-day Adventist Church at 11:00 a.m. as they welcome the First African American Chaplain of the U.S. Senate, Rear Admiral Barry Black, as he honors Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. An afternoon concert will be held at 3:15 p.m. with Mike Trotter and a book signing by Rear Admiral Black of his book “From the Hood to the Hill.” The church is located at 100 S. Rock Glen Road, Baltimore, Md.
Lake Union
1/17-20/11 – “Building the Beloved Community—From Horizon to Horizon: Global Women’s Achievements and Concerns” is the theme for the 2011 Martin Luther King Jr. Celebration at Andrews University. This year’s events will honor the life and legacy of peace-advocating civil rights activist Martin Luther King Jr. and include a variety of activities to enhance the understanding and appreciation of his service. All public events take place on the campus of Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Mich.
Mid-America Union
Elder Charles Drake president of the Central States Conference, has declared February 5 as a conference-wide “celebration/teaching” event on the life and legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Pacific Union
1/17/11 – Pathfinders representing churches of the Southern California Conference will participate in the MLK Los Angeles, Calif., city-wide parade honoring the life of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. The parade begins at 11:00 a.m. PST.
Southern Union
1/17/11 - U.S. Rep. John Yarmuth will speak about the life and legacy of King during a service at Magazine Street Seventh-day Adventist Church, 1942 Magazine Street, Louisville, KY. The service will begin at 5:00 p.m.
1/17/11 – More than 400 students and faculty from Southern Adventist University will volunteer with 20 projects including the Chattanooga Zoo in the Chattanooga, Tenn. area. This 17th annual Community Service Day will feature the theme “Illuminating Your Sphere of Influence.”
Southwestern Union
1/17/11 – Southwest Region Youth Ministries Director Roger Wade has declared Martin Luther King Jr. Day a “Day of Service” across the five-state region. Activities will include feeding the homeless, community clean-up initiatives, and clothing distribution.
© 2010 North American Division of Seventh-day Adventists | 12501 Old Columbia Pike, Silver Spring, MD 20904.
Visit: nad.adventist.org | George Johnson Jr., communication director | Bernadine Delafield, NET evangelism coordinator | Laura Samano, editorial assistant. Email: newspoints@nad.adventist.org
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Did Ellen G. White get it right about Jewelry or not? Was that a Revelation from God or has the quality of Jewelry gotten better is that why it is okay now? Please folks I just want the answer for this, was she speaking of herself or was it the Holy Spirit impressing her, what do you think? Or maybe she didn't look that good in it is that why? Or maybe we have more money in which to buy it now? What say you?
Di,
I have to agree with you.. I have read EG White,but that was years ago. I have read the New Testament and the Old Testament and Jesus NEVER said anything about the wearing of jewely or makeup. If that had been important, HE would have said so. What Jesus said was important, was being saved thru HIM, Loving our Neighbor as ourselves, and Loving God with all of our heart, soul and mind. Once we do that, we should not have any time, to look at anyone else to see what their faults are. We have just enough time, taking care of ourselves.
Religion is MAN-MADE AND SO ARE ALL THE RULES that go along with it. That wasn't what Jesus intended when He came. He came to do away with all the rules of the Old Testament, but it seems Man can't live with just the simple rules of Jesus Christ.
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Well, christian, I sure don't want ot be the one who said she didnt' know what she was talking about..........I would definitely have to run for cover. However, I believe she spoke to some things because of times and to specific situations, and it was basicaaly subsequent "editions" of her writings which put more emphasis on certain writings because mainly it fit the corporate policy trying to be applied. But that's just me. i cant' speak for anyone else. I can just speak to my relationship with God, and as I said before that is the only thing that counts now and to come on judgement day.
Today I taught the SS class where the Pastor sits along with out new Assoc. Pastor, we all had a grand time discussing and encouraging each other in the area of "stress".
Did Ellen G. White get it right about Jewelry or not? Was that a Revelation from God or has the quality of Jewelry gotten better is that why it is okay now? Please folks I just want the answer for this, was she speaking of herself or was it the Holy Spirit impressing her, what do you think? Or maybe she didn't look that good in it is that why? Or maybe we have more money in which to buy it now? What say you?
Di,
I have to agree with you.. I have read EG White,but that was years ago. I have read the New Testament and the Old Testament and Jesus NEVER said anything about the wearing of jewely or makeup. If that had been important, HE would have said so. What Jesus said was important, was being saved thru HIM, Loving our Neighbor as ourselves, and Loving God with all of our heart, soul and mind. Once we do that, we should not have any time, to look at anyone else to see what their faults are. We have just enough time, taking care of ourselves.
Religion is MAN-MADE AND SO ARE ALL THE RULES that go along with it. That wasn't what Jesus intended when He came. He came to do away with all the rules of the Old Testament, but it seems Man can't live with just the simple rules of Jesus Christ.
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My 2 cents for the day. I marvel at how some SDA leaders can think that Pastors who've been implicated in genocides are examples of "christianity" especially to the "western" church.
I also think that one of the current themes in adventism is this theme that can be inferred from Ted Wilson's speech and of those supporting him within the Church- is that one is more so "unchristian" based on one's ethnicity rather than based on actually what one does or whether or not one adheres to the Christian faith.
WHen you can be scandalized because you listen to gospel music, yet applauded and pointed to as an exemplary christian even though you've serially broken the 10 commandments, have born false witness against others, exploited others - and yet you're not called out by the Adventist Leadership,
-then this seems to be a theology where christians are defined based on ethnicity and/or what region of the world they come from rather than on character.
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My 2 cents for the day. I marvel at how some SDA leaders can think that Pastors who've been implicated in genocides are examples of "christianity" especially to the "western" church.
Important point, but who is doing it?
I also think that one of the current themes in adventism is this theme that can be inferred from Ted Wilson's speech and of those supporting him within the Church- is that one is more so "unchristian" based on one's ethnicity rather than based on actually what one does or whether or not one adheres to the Christian faith.
Inferred but not implicit? Why is the Church in North America honoring Martin Luther King Jr.? Is that a disgrace?
WHen you can be scandalized because you listen to gospel music, yet applauded and pointed to as an exemplary christian even though you've serially broken the 10 commandments, have born false witness against others, exploited others - and yet you're not called out by the Adventist Leadership,
-then this seems to be a theology where christians are defined based on ethnicity and/or what region of the world they come from rather than on character.
When I first came to America from Europe in 1952 I experienced the opposite of what you are saying. At Andrews (then Emmanuel Missionary College) theology students were playing Gospel Music that I was not used to from Europe. I wondered how they could be so "worldly". Later I started enjoying Black Camp Meeting at Cassapolis. (Wasn't that the name of the place?)
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Yes, Cassopolis - Camp Wagner.
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I'm not sure where SDA's are scandalized by "gospel music". Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by the term. In the SDA church I frequent at times, people aren't scandalized by gospel music, what appears to be hard rock (christian), or any ethnic variations of church music that may come along.
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Actually, I'm a member of that church.
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My 2 cents for the day. One of the more "compromised" conservative members of the church wrote a piece this summer about the value of emerging out of our "ghettoes" and coming together at big GC events with other groups. But what he failed to mention - that there can't be "community" - real genuine community - as along as moral compromise is permitted to flourish - .
If conservatives who don't adhere to the 10 commandments - and are only defined in their conservatism by how well they mimic those of old who lynched others, enslaved others, etc. - frequent big GC events and are permitted to stay in the church regardless of the moral compromise they commit- how can there be real community- in which genuine believers are safe to worship. The real truth is that the danger to the Church is not some person who listens to gospel music per se. The danger to the Church is an immoral person who who wants to make listening to Gospel music more of a sin, than conservatives and others who lie, cheat, steal, bear false witness against others. Sometimes, it's better to be among people like one's self - people who you know are christians and carry themselves with a basic sense of dignity for themselves and others. When a Church finds more of a crime in gospel music than in its own pastors arrested for involvement in genocides, then it is really hard for persons unused to the adventist community to know what to expect from other fellow adventists when they are in "adventist community" - you can't have a genuine community as long as this moral compromise is permitted to exist. And there are plenty of people who rightfully run from this conception of "adventist" community - not because they are 'ghettoe" - but because they are true to christian principles.
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tinka,
If :horse: the Lord convicted me, that wearing my wedding ring or my earings was a sin, I would take them off. Also, if He convicted me that wearing them was causing someone else from coming to Him, I would also take them off. So far, He has not done that. I do not dress plain, like the Amish or Mennonites because the Lord has not convicted me to do that, nor has He convicted me to live as a vegetarian as you do. WHEN AND IF He does I will change my diet. What the Lord tells you to do, is different than me. The scripture says to work out our own salvation before the Lord. Each of us is different. Each one of us have different gifts and God uses us in different ways. For you to wear jewely is wrong, because the Lord has told you it is wrong. I would not try to tell you different. My walk with Jesus is personal and I listen to Him. Sometimes He has to knock me up beside the head, but He gets His point accross.
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Ted Wilson is reported to have stated that EGW's spirit of prophecy is as relevant today as is was yesterday. Does he also mean that this is true regarding these statements she made: ""Opportunities are continually presenting themselves in the Southern States, and many wise, Christian colored men will be called to the work. But for several reasons white men must be chosen as leaders."
Ellen White, Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 202.
"The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race." Ellen White, Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, paragraph
The Colored People should not urge that they be placed on an equality with White People." (Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, Paragraph 3) "
I think he is - and this is the problem I have - this is why Ted Wilson and many of the "conservatives" in the SDA Church are not credible to me - especially when they try to scandalize liberalism. Ted Wilson's theology seems to be a theology of bigotry and moral compromise - .
This theology is in fact even more dangerous than some other non-SDA theologies - and it is more dangerous than the gospel music listener to the fabric of society. This is why I find it highly hypocritical when conservatives in the SDA Church try and paint themselves as the standard bearers of the christian faith in comparison to "liberals".
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Another question is - when EGW made these statements urging inequality between "coloreds" and whites - perhaps, this does reveal that within Adventism - there is an ethos of tribalism that is a way of life and culture unlike in some non-SDA denominations.
With these statements of EGW - about "coloreds" - how can there be a genuine "christian " community? Are coloreds safe within these communities -and/or will they be mistreated by "Adventists"? EGW and others believing in her every word which I believe Ted Wilson urged in his speech this summer- seems to be saying that it is ok to break the 10 commandments and to treat 'coloreds" unchristianly, because "coloreds" should not seek equality with whites.
But remember - bound up within inequality -is the fact that - "coloreds" as a result of discrimination have been the brunt of "false witness", recieving unfair wages, women and men have been killed, women have been raped. The bible says that these practices are wrong.
This is moral compromise. the call for traditionalism - is not really a call for a closer adherence to christian doctrine but a fallback to a time period in history where "coloreds" being unequal to "whites" was the law of the land.
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....and the church said....AMEN!!!
tinka,
If :horse: the Lord convicted me, that wearing my wedding ring or my earings was a sin, I would take them off. Also, if He convicted me that wearing them was causing someone else from coming to Him, I would also take them off. So far, He has not done that. I do not dress plain, like the Amish or Mennonites because the Lord has not convicted me to do that, nor has He convicted me to live as a vegetarian as you do. WHEN AND IF He does I will change my diet. What the Lord tells you to do, is different than me. The scripture says to work out our own salvation before the Lord. Each of us is different. Each one of us have different gifts and God uses us in different ways. For you to wear jewely is wrong, because the Lord has told you it is wrong. I would not try to tell you different. My walk with Jesus is personal and I listen to Him. Sometimes He has to knock me up beside the head, but He gets His point accross.
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And that AMEN is seconded!
....and the church said....AMEN!!!
tinka,
If :horse: the Lord convicted me, that wearing my wedding ring or my earings was a sin, I would take them off. Also, if He convicted me that wearing them was causing someone else from coming to Him, I would also take them off. So far, He has not done that. I do not dress plain, like the Amish or Mennonites because the Lord has not convicted me to do that, nor has He convicted me to live as a vegetarian as you do. WHEN AND IF He does I will change my diet. What the Lord tells you to do, is different than me. The scripture says to work out our own salvation before the Lord. Each of us is different. Each one of us have different gifts and God uses us in different ways. For you to wear jewely is wrong, because the Lord has told you it is wrong. I would not try to tell you different. My walk with Jesus is personal and I listen to Him. Sometimes He has to knock me up beside the head, but He gets His point accross.
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I compare Adventism with other non-adventist faiths that Ted Wilson snubs his nose at in his speeches - and I've often found more integrity in the non-SDA denominations because of a lack of conservatism. On the one hand, some of the SDA conservatives are quick to launch onto something as small as "gospel music" to insinuate that people coming from this certain cultural tradition who are also of a certain ethnic group are inherently immoral than even those who lie, cheat, and steal, but happen to be of another ethnic group. But I look at the non-SDA denomination that I've been familiar with and ask - would it be common place to have a number of pastors there implicated in genocides? Would it be common for campus ministry leaders to support church members who've lied against others, exploited others, etc? Would it be common for campus ministry leaders to support fornication among church members, dishonesty, exploitation while meanwhile campaigning against women's ordination? Usually, when you think of a christian person - you think of a certain level of integrity and code of conduct - this is what I've experienced in other denominations. But in the adventist church - there is a bid to convince others - that merely on ethnicity alone - that one's tradition and perspective as a christian is faulty - even more faulty than for example, those who don't adhere to the 10 commandments or have been implicated in genocides. Some of the adventist leaders who seem to have this animousity towards particular ethnic groups, themselves are not as accomplished economically or professionally as christians that I encountered in these other denominations -perhaps this explains their "ill will". In general, what I've noticed as a result of the conservatism in adventism - is that there are those who have a predisposition of seeking out others with an aim of having "ill will" for others - almost akin to "witchraft" - wishing others ill - or at - with this kind of attitude, how can you truly have a "christian" community rather than a "club". I've never encountered this kind of attititude in other denominations. In adventism it is as if tribalism is a religion and t theology.
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Let me add - I can think of this one ministry leader hired by the Adventist church who is really kind of ungentlemanly and also lacking integrity - and looking at him - professionally and economically he is not as accomplished as christians I think of in this other denomination - perhaps this explains his ill will. he claims to have the correct theology in comparison to these other "christians" - yet he supports persons who are dishonest against others, have born false witness against others, he supports stealing even in violation of EGW's counsel, etc. He claims to be correct in theology and in "holiness" and in worship and in musical observance - yet when one compares him with non-SDA christians encountered in other faith traditions - he does not have basic integrity and morality. These other christians would not justify bearing false witness against others, exploiting others, stealing, being promiscous - whereas this Adventist campus leader hired by the church is doing these very things. This is what I mean - while claiming to be even more moral and theologically pure than any other christian denomination and particularly the "liberals" - this c SDA leader and indeed many of the SDA conservatives - come across as the least christian of all. Comparing this ministry leader - he's not really accomplished professionally or blessed economically as those who he's sought to insinuate are not as christian as him. I think that the Church is personally harmed by having people with his lack of integrity in it - and ministering to the young people.
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tinka,
If :horse: the Lord convicted me, that wearing my wedding ring or my earings was a sin, I would take them off. Also, if He convicted me that wearing them was causing someone else from coming to Him, I would also take them off. So far, He has not done that. I do not dress plain, like the Amish or Mennonites because the Lord has not convicted me to do that, nor has He convicted me to live as a vegetarian as you do. WHEN AND IF He does I will change my diet. What the Lord tells you to do, is different than me. The scripture says to work out our own salvation before the Lord. Each of us is different. Each one of us have different gifts and God uses us in different ways. For you to wear jewely is wrong, because the Lord has told you it is wrong. I would not try to tell you different. My walk with Jesus is personal and I listen to Him. Sometimes He has to knock me up beside the head, but He gets His point accross.
Mrst (smile) sure do like to converse with you. No I don't dress like the Amish or Mennonite either but still like the simplicity of the Mennonite. The Amish only bring in their wealth by their religion for on lookers. We are not to dress to bring others to specticale. Therefore I do not dress to call any attention of style. I also feel the Amish are well under education in health and other aspects coming to money. I live close to them and know much of them. Yet they know one thing, being under subjection to their bishop in all different man made rules and work very hard. They are made to be self sufficient and do not live off government.
But I also believe that when it comes to God speaking to us and telling us what to do, it comes in the form of "Search and ye shall find". The more you seek the more God speaks. It takes full will and desire to know what is truth. I am still learning too.
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I've noticed how although some of the conservatives claim to be the most moral of the bunch within the SDA Church, I've noticed that many of them tend to have spread moral compromise. I've read on the internet from biblical scholars that while God was against "racism", to a certain extent he was against multiculturalism to the extent that it involved the mixing of "Israel" with other nations whose ways were defined by idolatory and other immoral practices. Is the Adventist Church encouraging moral compromise by encouraging such this kind of mixing? The Church is basically being asked to accept mixing with people who simply have different ideas on issues of fornication, bearing false witness against others, etc. - The SDA Church is essentially comprised of Israels being forced to mix and mingle with factions who are akin to peoples in the bible where the customs and way of life involved immoral fornicative practices. This is in and of itself compromise - that I don't seek the Church leadership speaking out against - instead the laity is just asked to "throw money" at the problem. These mores are ok, yet Gospel music we are told is not. But the bible speaks out against peoples in the bible who were involved at a national level in immoral fornicative practices - the bible is not so clear on stating that drums in worship is wrong, etc.
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Both the Amish and the Mennonites (the ones who wear unusual clothing) make a spectacle of themselves by their dress, and thereby call attention to themselves in a physical way, as do nuns, frocked priests, and anyone else who tries to show off their humility and religiousity by dressing themselves strangely.
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Ted Wilson is reported to have stated that EGW's spirit of prophecy is as relevant today as is was yesterday. Does he also mean that this is true regarding these statements she made: ""Opportunities are continually presenting themselves in the Southern States, and many wise, Christian colored men will be called to the work. But for several reasons white men must be chosen as leaders."
Ellen White, Testimonies, vol. 9, p. 202.
"The work of proclaiming the truth for this time is not to be hindered by an effort to adjust the position of the Negro race." Ellen White, Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, paragraph
The Colored People should not urge that they be placed on an equality with White People." (Testimonies Vol. 9, page 214, Paragraph 3) "
I think he is - and this is the problem I have - this is why Ted Wilson and many of the "conservatives" in the SDA Church are not credible to me - especially when they try to scandalize liberalism. Ted Wilson's theology seems to be a theology of bigotry and moral compromise - .
This theology is in fact even more dangerous than some other non-SDA theologies - and it is more dangerous than the gospel music listener to the fabric of society. This is why I find it highly hypocritical when conservatives in the SDA Church try and paint themselves as the standard bearers of the christian faith in comparison to "liberals".
You missed the most important "Context" of when and why these statements were made and therefore give this a whole different meaning. The context meaning in "red" above. We are now in different era of time and circumstances as we climb above those days. and basically I took this to mean she protected and gave good counsel to that time as not to put into danger our fellow black men from the bad of that era of time. It is not hard to understand when taking in every word. I know for fact she even sent her money at times to them when she could. You know she had good reason with what ever she said and if you really look at it just a couple of words one does not want to read makes a whole different context.
The North and the South came into battle over much and it was not her duty to put black preachers in the line of harm..during that time or era.
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Murcielago,
I agree but their is a way of dress that is never a spectacle and that is to just stay in modest dress and apparel that does not draw from ones countenance of natural beauty and cleanliness without all the bangles. It's called "class" and forget the style!! A person knows how they are dressed by the character they want others to preceive them as. christian, sexy, on the make, clean and neat, and....(laugh) conservative or liberal. (costly array) or thrifty. :ROFL:
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Ok, I go with that. Classy is good. I don't have an issue with jewelry and do enjoy seeing it (well, some of it...), but enjoy the person even more (ummm, at least in most cases ;) )
Murcielago,
I agree but their is a way of dress that is never a spectacle and that is to just stay in modest dress and apparel that does not draw from ones countenance of natural beauty and cleanliness without all the bangles. It's called "class" and forget the style!! A person knows how they are dressed by the character they want others to preceive them as. christian, sexy, on the make, clean and neat, and....(laugh) conservative or liberal. (costly array) or thrifty. :ROFL:
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Even the KKK viewed themselves as more "christian" than the people they lynched. Ted Wilson's speech and ideas at the GC this summer is a distant cousin to the idea the KKK promoted or at least the "southern strategy".
It is true that people often "use" religion when they are trying to get "over" on others, or take advantage of others or endorse immorality and wrong doing. This is what the KKK have done - and in some part - what the religious "right" have done. Some conservatives have perpetuated Gross human atrocities yet they think by calling themselves christian that they claim the mantle over "christian" progressives.
Religion and christianity are too often used by "conservatives" to excuse immorality, wrondoing and moral compromise.
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Jise,
Hmmm, actually you bring up an interesting point. "Southern Strategy". One can ponder this for a moment.
Just what was their "southern strategy? Slaves that did all their work for them? They loved their life of ease?? while slaves worked and they did eat and made them their money to live a life of pride and luxury??? Why would they want to give this up??? They love their rebel flag to this day and claim "the south will rise again".
Their defeat was a bloody one. and it happened during the time of the 3rd angels message was to be given. What better plan could Satan divert the message using the selfease devised by him the lifestyle of "Southern strategy" of the use of inhuman slavery. Have they really been defeated and have come back with the cloak of different names in this late era? I knew some (what they call secret KKK people a few years back when discovering accidentally their secret meeting place without their knowing and carried the rebel flags in their trucks) Guess what they were not native northerners. What changed with these characteristics of the North and the South Strategy in this late date??? Nothing!! In that era and time Northerners, coming from Europe and making and working their own way was a different "Strategy" so again we are divided in two different ways of life that continue and continue and could be called many names that mean the same two "Strategies". We still have it today divided by individuals and their upbringing which determines where ever they migrated to in what ever part of the country... but their "Strategy" is still there and they still are in the mode of "Southern strategy" whether they are still in the south or live in the north. The outcome of division is scattered in all parts of the nation with the passing of time. I think it all depends on where your"roots" are from and originated not meaning that all Southerners think this way. But some chose to move on and live it in the "conservative" word of God and know their reward in the end and some like to live with it still in their craw in the devils street of "Southern strategy" and racism where there is no return and it remains to be relived and relived in each "Individuals choice of Strategy". Yes, their rebel flag still rises "cloaked". and the still "slaves" of history (not meaning all) do not overcome as some do. It is tooooo late in time for these "Strategies" to even be thought of now as the end nears.
The message given from that time forward was on a one to one basis of all human relationship with God and the ticket of "unity" for all one nation under God. But the flag was still there......the "liberal and Southern strategy" flag. God's plan or "flag" is another shall not work and another eat. Making Slaves were wrong from the get go. EGW and company had the burden of the world on their shoulders to deliver 3rd angels message in this "rebel southern strategy" and still rising! again all southerns do not take this stance. My husband is a southerner from a very poor south western mountain state and family history never owned slaves and repulsed at the segregation of students during his young years. He was ashamed and hurt for the treatmeant of black students being on the bus long hours to go far to school. Yes there are people like my husband that have feeling and fought for the right of all human beings under God. But somehow the "racism" won't let some blacks reallize that legislature now holds their freedom for all. All can work for their own happiness, life of choice and equality. Some will reach for it in both black and white and some will not. and finally if you do work for it in this late era -- others are waiting to take it in all human races. Pretty bad by now would'nt you say as the "rebel" rises.
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Jise,
I am sorry that you have apparently run into alot of "bad" representatives of the SDA Church. If you have been reading long,than you know that I have posted that I have run into many in the other churches as well. I am sorry that these men have disappointed you. but then MEN will. Apparently you have been in situations that others of us have not been in, and if I may say so, hope not to be in. You have seen things that you will never forget and no one should have seen or been thru. I am sorry that you have been thru this and I pray that the Lord will help you forget. You must be in a situation where you come into contact with these ministers of the SDA, that many of the others on this site don't, so therefore you also see the the inner workings of the church and also the failings of these ministers. These men don't need to be in their positions, but convincing others above them is very hard, when they don't want to listen. The most we can do is tell those above the problem and then turn the rest over to the Lord. The Bible says"Vengence is Mine" God will take care of it, in the end, even tho we get impatient... :ROFL:
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....an then they hired one.....E. E. Cleveland by the time the 60's rolled around.
It must have been around 1960 when I sat at a dining table in a private home with E. E. Cleveland. Our family was invited because we had met him before. What a lovely person!
Lo! some we loved, the loveliest and best
That Time and Fate of all their Vintage prest,
Have drunk their Cup a Round or two before,
And one by one crept silently to Rest.
Edward Fitzgerald
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tinka,
If :horse: the Lord convicted me, that wearing my wedding ring or my earings was a sin, I would take them off. Also, if He convicted me that wearing them was causing someone else from coming to Him, I would also take them off. So far, He has not done that. I do not dress plain, like the Amish or Mennonites because the Lord has not convicted me to do that, nor has He convicted me to live as a vegetarian as you do. WHEN AND IF He does I will change my diet. What the Lord tells you to do, is different than me. The scripture says to work out our own salvation before the Lord. Each of us is different. Each one of us have different gifts and God uses us in different ways. For you to wear jewely is wrong, because the Lord has told you it is wrong. I would not try to tell you different. My walk with Jesus is personal and I listen to Him. Sometimes He has to knock me up beside the head, but He gets His point accross.
Di, and Mrst53 who is not SDA to review our stance on Jewelry although some SDA's do not take this of value for their own "vanities sake".
In case you have not read this thought I would insert here the connection or stance to Bible reference from EGW. So therefore it is very strange for me to see how SDA people can make their own justifications of wearing jewelry, rings and things here in a free country of choice and not traditional heathen customs.
"Were our sisters conscientious Bible Christians, seeking to improve every opportunity to enlighten others, we should see scores of souls embracing the truth through their self-sacrificing endeavors alone. Sisters, in the day when the accounts of all are balanced, will you feel a pleasure in reviewing your life, or will you feel that the beauty of the outward man was sought, while the inward beauty of the soul was almost entirely neglected? {4T 629.4}
Have not our sisters sufficient zeal and moral courage to place themselves without excuse upon the Bible platform? The apostle has given most explicit directions on this point: I will therefore . . . that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." Here the Lord, through His apostle, speaks expressly against the wearing of gold. Let those who have had experience see to it that they do not lead others astray on this point by their example. That ring encircling your finger may be very plain, but it is useless, and the wearing of it has a wrong influence upon others. {4T 630.1}
Especially should the wives of our ministers be careful not to depart from the plain teachings of the Bible on the point of dress. Many look upon these injunctions as too old-fashioned to be worthy of notice; but He who gave them to His disciples understood the dangers from the love of dress in our time and sent to us the note of warning. Will we heed the warning and be wise? Extravagance in dress is continually increasing. The end is not yet. Fashion is constantly changing,
631
and our sisters follow in its wake, regardless of time or expense. There is a great amount of means expended upon dress, when it should be returned to God the giver. {4T 630.2}
The plain, neat dress of the poorer class often appears in marked contrast with the attire of their more wealthy sisters, and this difference frequently causes a feeling of embarrassment on the part of the poor. Some try to imitate their more wealthy sisters, and frill and ruffle and trim goods of an inferior quality so as to approach as nearly as possible to them in dress. Poor girls, receiving but two dollars a week for their work, will expend every cent to dress like others who are not obliged to earn their own living. These youth have nothing to put into the treasury of God. And their time is so thoroughly occupied in making their dress as fashionable as that of their sisters that they have no time for the improvement of the mind, for the study of God's word, for secret prayer, or for the prayer meeting. The mind is entirely taken up with planning how to appear as well as their sisters. To accomplish this end, physical, mental, and moral health is sacrificed. Happiness and the favor of God are laid upon the altar of fashion. {4T 631.1}
Many will not attend the service of God upon the Sabbath because their dress would appear so unlike that of their Christian sisters in style and adornment. Will my sisters consider these things as they are, and will they fully realize the weight of their influence upon others? By walking in a forbidden path themselves, they lead others in the same way of disobedience and backsliding. Christian simplicity is sacrificed to outward display. My sisters, how shall we change all this? How shall we recover ourselves from the snare of Satan and break the chains that have bound us in slavery to fashion? How shall we recover our wasted opportunities? how bring our powers into healthful, vigorous action? There is only one way, and that is to make the Bible our rule of life. All should work earnestly to do good to others, watch unto prayer, take up the long-neglected cross, and heed the warnings and injunctions of Him who has said: "Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."
632
{4T 631.2}
My Christian sisters, face the mirror, the law of God, and test your course of action by the first four commandments. These explicitly define our duty to God. He claims the undivided affections; and anything which tends to absorb the mind and divert it from God assumes the form of an idol. The true and living God is crowded out of the thoughts and heart, and the soul-temple is defiled by the worship of other gods before the Lord. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," says the commandment. Let us search the heart, compare the life and character with the statutes and precepts of Jehovah, and then seek diligently to correct our errors. {4T 632.1}"
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In my childhood I regarded my mother as one of the few church females who would make it to heaven because of her modesty and wearing no jewelry. At the age of 15 I moved to Norway and there I found that most women in the church were just as fit for heaven as my mother.
At the age of 19 I moved to the United States and what did I discover there? With red books in one hand and a black one in the other people in our churches were raging against jewelry, and yet in my estimation they were so deluded that they had no chance for heaven. Why?
Most of those women raging against jewelry were using fake "jewelry" painted all over their faces, nails, and toenails. I wondered what kind of heaven was their destiny? And then their dresses in various hues and colors. I started wondered if solid gold wasn't preferable to perishable paint?
How about the men? It seemed to me like they understood Ellen White as verbally inspired. The rules agains jewelry applied only to females and not to males. They exhibited their costly golden watches, cuff links, tie clips, (not to mention their new cars) - as long as the gold was not around the finger!!! And they still held the books in their hands reading loudly the condemnation on all of those not following the Spirit of Prophecy.
Where is consistency? Where is godliness? Is it all connected with the exterior?
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tinka,
I am not going to argue with you, but I do have one question, do you wear a watch?
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Actually Mrst, I don't, and not because I am against having a watch. They are all decorated into bracelets by now anyway. I have had a couple of cheapies that my daughter got me for mothers day a year or two but could not get used to wearing it. The reason I do not even wear a plain band or the cheapy is because in busy ness of working it always seemed to bother me to have something tagged on to my wrist. Making bread, pies or cooking gardening or whatever would only get messed up anyway. I have a clock in every room in the direction of working. Having a big family and business ----always time was of essence and on time for everything was a way of getting all done. Dr's & Nurses and I think pastors must wear a watch and many other type of situations and work out of necessity. It was never necessary for me. Actually, cooking everyday for big family keeps the time for you as the oven directs your time into habit. I wasn't trying to argue, just wanted Di to read what she committed to in her belief of SDA. and thought maybe you might understand SDA if I brought out the Bible stance in clear tones and Mrs. Whites' inspired writing giving a reasonable reason behind why we should follow the Biblical scripture in our manner of stewardship of ones self in money, dress and vanity. I conclude and understand that most people do not consider the finer details in everyday living and most believe that the only thing you have to do is believe there is God and the rest comes. But usually an SDA believes in everyday study to learn the walk in the footsteps of Jesus. It brings truth where we are not guessing such as surmising about deep details. It was so sad as you probably seen the little girl that was shot in Arizona. I was amazed to think that anyone could come up with such a statement when her mother stated over national TV that she was much more needed in heaven!
Could anyone possibly give a reason for what?? How could she be happy in heaven and look down in sadness of all the sorrow here? That is against scripture and people do not even fathom it is wrong belief. as scripture is right up front and direct plain as day word for word on this. I just don't like living everyday to my own needs and wants and forget there is much to learn if I am interested in eternity and if I can help anyone to make it too, I want to be sure it is truth and not just like the people that lost their daughter, which was so horrible and sad. Will we be held accountable for false doctrine?? sure will! The "Word" is plentiful and everywhere in a time of freedom which is now slipping quickly. I have no right to think of Eternity unless I search for the one that Gives it and His will.....then do it. (smile) and that takes help from Him. (smile)
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http://news.adventist.org/2011/01/-the-growth-rate-of.html
This link from Adventist News is an example of how condescending some Adventists can be to contemporary forms of worship - without presenting any biblical basis for their assertions that "contemporary" worship waters down the message- what many adventists fail to admit is -that their anti-communitarian ethos here in the US - and their conservative political "theology" is laden with moral compromise. I read somewhere that a prominent Adventist was quoted in a newspaper this week as defending the Adventist stance on non-condemnation for abortions in being supported in Ellen. W's teaching and in the assertion that the bible is silent on abortion - I don't know if this is true- but the bible is silent on whether or not Gospel music, but particularly, clapping, dancing and drumming are wrong in terms of Church worship. Interesting that adventists can "make up" rules- rather than make their conservative members adhere to the actual 10 commandments. The bible actually encourages dancing and clapping in worship but is clear about dishonesty, killing, murder, etc.
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The Adventist church which has a high abundance of its pastors implicated in genocides -is interesting for the fact, that it is more of a crime to listen to Walter Hawkins or KirK Franklin, that it is to fornicate, bear false witness against others, exploit others or be an adventist Pastor implicated in genocides if one is conservative. I never met such moral hypocrisy until I came to the SDA Church. In the Baptist churches and other Church denominations, these denominations may not have had all of the adventist creeds correct, or all of bibiblical doctrine correct (the SDA Church does not have all biblical doctrine correct) but the people were genuine in their christianity -and genuine period. In my view, Ted Wilson really seems to be celebrating moral compromise.
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Jise, I realize that you have the privilege of writing what you want on this forum, but I am really tired of reading the same negative thoughts hashed over again and again. Do you think you could find something positive to say. :TY:
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Jise,
The grass looks greener over on the other side, till you actually become better acquainted with it. Sometimes I've thought that certain other groups looked like they really had it together, only to be disappointed.
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Jise, I realize that you have the privilege of writing what you want on this forum, but I am really tired of reading the same negative thoughts hashed over again and again. Do you think you could find something positive to say. :TY:
:amen:
:sabbath:
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Some of the Conservatives- like William Johnsson - who was affiliated with the Adventist Review - have been promoting moral compromise - in that they have essentially pointed to sectors of Adventism that are little different than peoples in the bible - whose culture and way of life were defined by sexual immorality and debauchery - as a good example to the rest of the Church - particularly the Western Church - where Adventism is declining. Many Conservatives such as William Johnnson in my opinion, seem to have quite a tolerance for moral compromise as long as this compromise involves "conservatism" which on some level - this conservatism has always approved of sexual immorality - exploitation of others, slavery, bigotry, etc.
But in the Bible - God - did not want his people mixing with other cultures where sexual debauchery was a way of life - yet and still - this is what Adventism to a great extent has become. Suddenly - listenining to Kirk Franklin is more of a crime than sexual immorality, bearing false witness, or exploitation. In fact, promoting this moral compromise seems to be essential for employees within Adventist Conferences who want to get promoted. Much of Adventism is built on a great lie.
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Illicitness and illicit behavior have become the currency of some societies that form the belt where in there is a high preponderance of HIV/AIDS fueled by breaking God's 10 commandments.
Is it fair or right when a Campus Director in the SDA Church who supports the concept of illicitness and immorality -advocates for Church members and others to uncritically give AID to countries wherein much of the citizenry including SDA church members support this concept of immorality and illiticit behavior that fuels such epidemics as HIV/AIDS? Is such mission AID only fueling a lack of accountability?
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Many Conservatives such as William Johnnson in my opinion, seem to have quite a tolerance for moral compromise as long as this compromise involves "conservatism" which on some level - this conservatism has always approved of sexual immorality - exploitation of others, slavery, bigotry, etc.
I believe your statement to be false. Produce one single statement from Bill Johnnson in which he states that he approves of sexual immorality, slavery, or bigotry. Either back up your statements or don't make them, out of Christian courtesy.
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Many Conservatives such as William Johnnson in my opinion, seem to have quite a tolerance for moral compromise as long as this compromise involves "conservatism" which on some level - this conservatism has always approved of sexual immorality - exploitation of others, slavery, bigotry, etc.
I believe your statement to be false. Produce one single statement from Bill Johnnson in which he states that he approves of sexual immorality, slavery, or bigotry. Either back up your statements or don't make them, out of Christian courtesy.
:amen: My thoughts exactly!
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Sounds like talk from the "SDA Reformers". (an off shoot branch)
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On this one I am in total agreement with tinka, boy, did I say that. And Johann you are right in your summation of the facts but that in no means justifies what God has already spoken against through the prophets. Because men wear jewelry or drive costly cars to be seen in no way affects the legitimacy of the prohibition of jewelry from Adventist who have been counseled against the wearing thereof.
tinka,
If :horse: the Lord convicted me, that wearing my wedding ring or my earings was a sin, I would take them off. Also, if He convicted me that wearing them was causing someone else from coming to Him, I would also take them off. So far, He has not done that. I do not dress plain, like the Amish or Mennonites because the Lord has not convicted me to do that, nor has He convicted me to live as a vegetarian as you do. WHEN AND IF He does I will change my diet. What the Lord tells you to do, is different than me. The scripture says to work out our own salvation before the Lord. Each of us is different. Each one of us have different gifts and God uses us in different ways. For you to wear jewely is wrong, because the Lord has told you it is wrong. I would not try to tell you different. My walk with Jesus is personal and I listen to Him. Sometimes He has to knock me up beside the head, but He gets His point accross.
Di, and Mrst53 who is not SDA to review our stance on Jewelry although some SDA's do not take this of value for their own "vanities sake".
In case you have not read this thought I would insert here the connection or stance to Bible reference from EGW. So therefore it is very strange for me to see how SDA people can make their own justifications of wearing jewelry, rings and things here in a free country of choice and not traditional heathen customs.
"Were our sisters conscientious Bible Christians, seeking to improve every opportunity to enlighten others, we should see scores of souls embracing the truth through their self-sacrificing endeavors alone. Sisters, in the day when the accounts of all are balanced, will you feel a pleasure in reviewing your life, or will you feel that the beauty of the outward man was sought, while the inward beauty of the soul was almost entirely neglected? {4T 629.4}
Have not our sisters sufficient zeal and moral courage to place themselves without excuse upon the Bible platform? The apostle has given most explicit directions on this point: I will therefore . . . that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." Here the Lord, through His apostle, speaks expressly against the wearing of gold. Let those who have had experience see to it that they do not lead others astray on this point by their example. That ring encircling your finger may be very plain, but it is useless, and the wearing of it has a wrong influence upon others. {4T 630.1}
Especially should the wives of our ministers be careful not to depart from the plain teachings of the Bible on the point of dress. Many look upon these injunctions as too old-fashioned to be worthy of notice; but He who gave them to His disciples understood the dangers from the love of dress in our time and sent to us the note of warning. Will we heed the warning and be wise? Extravagance in dress is continually increasing. The end is not yet. Fashion is constantly changing,
631
and our sisters follow in its wake, regardless of time or expense. There is a great amount of means expended upon dress, when it should be returned to God the giver. {4T 630.2}
The plain, neat dress of the poorer class often appears in marked contrast with the attire of their more wealthy sisters, and this difference frequently causes a feeling of embarrassment on the part of the poor. Some try to imitate their more wealthy sisters, and frill and ruffle and trim goods of an inferior quality so as to approach as nearly as possible to them in dress. Poor girls, receiving but two dollars a week for their work, will expend every cent to dress like others who are not obliged to earn their own living. These youth have nothing to put into the treasury of God. And their time is so thoroughly occupied in making their dress as fashionable as that of their sisters that they have no time for the improvement of the mind, for the study of God's word, for secret prayer, or for the prayer meeting. The mind is entirely taken up with planning how to appear as well as their sisters. To accomplish this end, physical, mental, and moral health is sacrificed. Happiness and the favor of God are laid upon the altar of fashion. {4T 631.1}
Many will not attend the service of God upon the Sabbath because their dress would appear so unlike that of their Christian sisters in style and adornment. Will my sisters consider these things as they are, and will they fully realize the weight of their influence upon others? By walking in a forbidden path themselves, they lead others in the same way of disobedience and backsliding. Christian simplicity is sacrificed to outward display. My sisters, how shall we change all this? How shall we recover ourselves from the snare of Satan and break the chains that have bound us in slavery to fashion? How shall we recover our wasted opportunities? how bring our powers into healthful, vigorous action? There is only one way, and that is to make the Bible our rule of life. All should work earnestly to do good to others, watch unto prayer, take up the long-neglected cross, and heed the warnings and injunctions of Him who has said: "Whosoever will come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."
632
{4T 631.2}
My Christian sisters, face the mirror, the law of God, and test your course of action by the first four commandments. These explicitly define our duty to God. He claims the undivided affections; and anything which tends to absorb the mind and divert it from God assumes the form of an idol. The true and living God is crowded out of the thoughts and heart, and the soul-temple is defiled by the worship of other gods before the Lord. "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me," says the commandment. Let us search the heart, compare the life and character with the statutes and precepts of Jehovah, and then seek diligently to correct our errors. {4T 632.1}"
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Christian! There you are! I was about to send out the troops! LOL!!!
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Jise,
How do you know such itimate details about these men in the SDA church?
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Mrst, I can see the can opening now..............Why did you have to ask?!! LOL!!!
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On this one I am in total agreement with tinka, boy, did I say that. And Johann you are right in your summation of the facts but that in no means justifies what God has already spoken against through the prophets. Because men wear jewelry or drive costly cars to be seen in no way affects the legitimacy of the prohibition of jewelry from Adventist who have been counseled against the wearing thereof.
James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
This is enough for me to understand perfectly if all else was omitted! EGW says "it is useles".
It just gives "vanity" in all avenues of self looks, possessions, justified by self with all self reasoning. The rich man gave all but one thing....could a ring be one thing?? EGW says, don't chance it as we do not know our own inner sins........ Her greatest question to the Lord before she took on the task of her duty, was to please protect her from the "vanity" of it all. That is when I knew how important "humble was". and then there is the use of "the worlds applause". The applause within our church. SDA never ever applauded within church for the reasons she gave. Now, and this age...all forgotten. No applause in church remember?? Why do we want the "applause" or give it? It relates again to "vanity" or causes it to the Preacher or singer. It is a great danger to do it for those reasons. Amen to the Holy Spirit is very sufficient in the essenance of connection with Holy Spirit. Applause is for the person. Applause is for worldy performing plain and simple. It gives "vanity" to the becoming of the "stars". of which.....gets you nowhere with God!
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Bob Pickle: This is the opinion I've reached of Mr. Johnnson from many of his pronouncements which have been made public. When he holds up certain groups who are involved in sin and who support sin- as groups to be emulated by the church and all churches - this would seem to say to me that he supports these sins.
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I find it interesting when a campus "leader" "based" in N. America, claims that he's against contemporary means of mission and worship and is bible based, yet he supports SDA Mission workers who've broken the 10 commandments, are currently in sin, are engaged in sins such as dishonesty, fornication, etc. This campus leader is anti-contemporary because he really supports a historical period of time in which certani groups and genders - were oppressed as via the law of the land. You'd be hard pressed to find this "leader" criticizing "trokosi" for example. For him conservatism is really a cover for the fact that this guy is a tribalist and his ministry is one of tribalism - with him, it's a crime to be a certain ethnic group. If you are a certain ethnic group, and commit sins and are unrepetentent - this leader being the false prophet he is- stands up for you - but if you are a certain ethnic group and gender, merely listening to Gospel music makes you a devil, even if you are a real "well meaning" christian who is honest, and obeys the 10 commandments. This leader is simply not of the same stature of persons that I've met in other churches. What drives this leader is that he wishes ill for others and feels ashamed of the fact that he simply is not on the level of others. This campus leader has also relied on and perpetuated lies about "liberals" and permissiveness when in fact, this campus "leader" is quite "permissive" and "loose" with biblical doctrine in that he associates with and approves of slanderers, fornicators, etc. No wonder as according to land records, his house continues to drop in value. He will never "repay" his debts, because he's so evil... :oops:
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Certain Hate speech against ethnic groups is protected speech under the constitution- and often has not as of yet fallen under the rubric of being described as bullying by some anti-bullying groups when certain groups or persons do it against certain racial minority groups- namely conservative radio personalities or groups such as the KKK. Has the SDA Church become a fertile ground for picking on certain groups of persons based on mere ethnic and cultural differences that have little to do with whether or not one has good christian values? For example, is there a tendency for groups of persons from the same region of the globe and/or from the same race to gang up on others within the church based on mere differences that have little to do with the substance of christianity? For example, do we have a situation, wherein if a person is from a certain region of the globe - yet they are dishonest , and tend to have a tendency to fornicate - that this person will still be lauded as a "christian" and not be described as having errant or problematic behavior - whereas another person who comes from another part of the globe, is persecuted and bullied on account of mere ethnicity and being different because of this - wherein bullying behaviors such as being targetted for exploitation, for abuse, is excused, explained away and even lauded by Church members in the SDA Church? I have printed this link below which describes a common scheme that is directed at women from certain parts of the globe being exploited. http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g312659-s402/Cape-Town:South-Africa:Nightlife.html
Yet, there is at least one SDA Conference and Churches that support promiscous males such as the ones described here in this link seeking out women in this fashion to harass, and exploit - this common scheme often and commonly involves a financial element of abuse. Would you believe that we have adventists who are so cynical to allege that any and all of the women who are targetted and exploited in this fashion or approached in this fashion, and swindled out of money -had impure motives towards the male "touts" who targetted them for perverse ends, merely because they expected at the minimum to not have been approached in such a dishonest fashion - been targetted for harrassment. I think these Adventists who cynical are also guilty of harrassment of women. The question is -do people who are adventists who defend promiscous males who target women in such fashion - tend to come from countries where there is a high prevalence of HIV/AIDS which is tied to casual promiscuous relations? Is the SDA Church trying to regularlize this kind of ethos and encourage other christians look up to this kind of ethos and philosophy of life?
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Jise,
Hmmm, actually you bring up an interesting point. "Southern Strategy". One can ponder this for a moment.
Just what was their "southern strategy? Slaves that did all their work for them? They loved their life of ease?? while slaves worked and they did eat and made them their money to live a life of pride and luxury??? Why would they want to give this up??? They love their rebel flag to this day and claim "the south will rise again".
Their defeat was a bloody one. and it happened during the time of the 3rd angels message was to be given. What better plan could Satan divert the message using the selfease devised by him the lifestyle of "Southern strategy" of the use of inhuman slavery. Have they really been defeated and have come back with the cloak of different names in this late era? I knew some (what they call secret KKK people a few years back when discovering accidentally their secret meeting place without their knowing and carried the rebel flags in their trucks) Guess what they were not native northerners. What changed with these characteristics of the North and the South Strategy in this late date??? Nothing!! In that era and time Northerners, coming from Europe and making and working their own way was a different "Strategy" so again we are divided in two different ways of life that continue and continue and could be called many names that mean the same two "Strategies". We still have it today divided by individuals and their upbringing which determines where ever they migrated to in what ever part of the country... but their "Strategy" is still there and they still are in the mode of "Southern strategy" whether they are still in the south or live in the north. The outcome of division is scattered in all parts of the nation with the passing of time. I think it all depends on where your"roots" are from and originated not meaning that all Southerners think this way. But some chose to move on and live it in the "conservative" word of God and know their reward in the end and some like to live with it still in their craw in the devils street of "Southern strategy" and racism where there is no return and it remains to be relived and relived in each "Individuals choice of Strategy". Yes, their rebel flag still rises "cloaked". and the still "slaves" of history (not meaning all) do not overcome as some do. It is tooooo late in time for these "Strategies" to even be thought of now as the end nears.
The message given from that time forward was on a one to one basis of all human relationship with God and the ticket of "unity" for all one nation under God. But the flag was still there......the "liberal and Southern strategy" flag. God's plan or "flag" is another shall not work and another eat. Making Slaves were wrong from the get go. EGW and company had the burden of the world on their shoulders to deliver 3rd angels message in this "rebel southern strategy" and still rising! again all southerns do not take this stance. My husband is a southerner from a very poor south western mountain state and family history never owned slaves and repulsed at the segregation of students during his young years. He was ashamed and hurt for the treatmeant of black students being on the bus long hours to go far to school. Yes there are people like my husband that have feeling and fought for the right of all human beings under God. But somehow the "racism" won't let some blacks reallize that legislature now holds their freedom for all. All can work for their own happiness, life of choice and equality. Some will reach for it in both black and white and some will not. and finally if you do work for it in this late era -- others are waiting to take it in all human races. Pretty bad by now would'nt you say as the "rebel" rises.
Thank you for your comment -I agree with much of it except some parts of it. The legislature does not necessarily hold blacks' freedom for all. I'm afraid that many of the courts have a corrupt form of injustice as talked about in the bible - and don't enforce the laws that allow blacks to work free from harrassment and with equal opportunity. Just because someone is black does not mean they are unwilling to work. There are many who are willing to work to keep their jobs. Many have gotten to where they are and surpassed others because they went to school and studied and worked harder than others - not because of affirmative action. There is alot of unjust affirmative action action that many whites have gotten yet there is quite an effort to keep this under wraps and not let the news get out about this. Do you know that if the real story got about about how lack of merit is fostered in some workplaces and some unqualified whites have been promoted even when underperforming over others, that there are laws on the books that could be used to silence the truth from coming out. There is a real propaganda campaign out there that exists to distort the truth about the races and who is really getting an unfair advantage and has gotten an unfair advantage all of these years. Some would rather "buy" silence and sweep the issue under the rug so as to give the "appearance" of a meritocracy and that America is a meritocracy where discrimination does not really exist- so that the public does not find out the extent of how underperforming whites were promoted over meritorious blacks and others even in violation of a workplace's own policies, etc. etc. So I don't believe this idea that all or even most blacks don't want to work and are always unduly complaining. The real truth is that there is alot of corruption and a lack of accountability in some workplaces. What I've observed is that if you are white and are underperforming, you simply will not be held accountable on many levels, and will not be fired in some organizations -even if you've grossly broken laws. This is what I've learned -and it's quite interesting that we still have this rhetoric delivered about how underachievement and an "achievement gap" purportedly defines the black American culture and is unique to the black culture and allegedly rare in other cultures. This may be what large swaths of America wants to hear - but is this really truthful? Think about the cynical and dishonest portrayal it gives of ethnic groups in terms of "inferiority" and "superiority" and the damage it does? There is a feeling and philosophy that the rights - the human rights of "blacks" are not God-given that should be recognized and respected by American institutions and the American majority, but are simply rights that can be given at a whim by the American state. There is a point of view that for expediency, it is best to approach the problem of "black America" from a standpoint where equal rights for them is recognized not all at once, but through slow gradualism. I don't know if I really agree with this strategy because it seems to violate the bible and allow for moral compromise and even be violative of the nation's anti-discrimination laws. Many persons have gotten to where they are today because they know how to network and networking often involves swallowing the party line and engaging in the "southern strategy" and bullying others of certain ethnic groups.
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Bill Cork has written an essay over today at Adventist Today - some of the people he's endorsed - I'm not saying whether or not they're limited to this essay -but that he's endorsed in general, believe that women should be approached and exploited in the manner depictedin this link above here http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g312659-s402/Cape-Town:South-Africa:Nightlife.html
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