Advent Talk
Issues & Concerns Category => 3ABN => Topic started by: Johann on March 02, 2011, 03:24:33 PM
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Johann the liar
Postby steffan » Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:42 pm UTC
When he says on [not]at
I asked a local pastor what he had seen
This statement proves his lies out of his own mouth.
At first, he claimed that Linda came to Norway and he spent all his time with her and the doctor, so there was no way anything could have happened. Now, he has said he "asked" a local pastor. Where was he? Not anywhere near Linda and the doctor, because they didn't want him anywhere near.
What shall I say? That Steffan seems to have as much trouble with time chronology as the now retired surgeon Walt Thompson? And that causes them to blunder along in so much of their defense?
1. Yes, I claimed that Linda and Brenda came to Norway while her son, Nathan, was there. At that time I was living in Denmark, but I came to Norway for a short visit while they were there. Linda and Brenda were singing at a meeting in church during their visit, but not while I was there. After the demon appeared to Brenda and she started telling stories, Danny related one of those stories of what Linda had done while in church that was improper. He sent it to me in an e-mail. A couple of weeks after that we moved to Norway and so we were in Norway when I questioned my friends who had been at the meeting what had happened. That was how I discovered what Danny told me was a lie.
2. I never said I had spent all the time there with Linda. That is a lie.
3. You claiming that Linda and the doctor were alone together in Norway at that time is another bold lie!
4. What I have said is that my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida. When I refused to verify his claims and thereby doubting his universal knowledge of everything he got so angry that he had Walt Thompson fire me.
5. You make the statement that Linda and the doctor do not want me anywhere around? I have seen some of Danny's friends make that claim. Is that how you prove/document things?
And now, from Linda's own mouth, comes confirmation about what she denied all along - she has now, according to her own website, moved to Norway, close to a "dear" friend. Obviously not Johann.
steffan
Quite an interesting statement from the pen of Steffan who claims to be telling the truth. One wonders who taught Steffan to measure what is the truth and what is a lie. I wonder how he would measure if I made the following statement: "Columbus never came to North America because I never saw him when I was there."?
This seems to be Steffan's way of reasoning, and then he tries to get others to accept his way of thinking. It seem like he is trying to convince us that because Linda states she is in Norway in 2011 then she must have been there also in the past when she said she did not live there.
Who is telling the truth? Christopher Columbus sailed the long way from Europe to America and back on sailboats.
Will someone please inform Steffan that this is not the only way of travel today. Today we had a couple of visitors from Canada at our home here in Iceland who will be flying back within a few days, first to Seattle where they arrive on the same day. A good friend of mine is flying from Seattle to visit us in less than three weeks. He also visited us last year. All of these still live in North America.
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I am under the belief that the use of the ST-F-N name is a sacrilege worthy of excommunication and I can certainly see why these malcontents of Anti-Christianity are best left in their self-made nest with the rest of the demons, vipers and the scorpions of 3ABNism.
It will be a very hot day on the other end of the millennium when the blinders will be peeled back and the truth will be emblazened into their minds, they will have to confess and...burn, baby, burn!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Re: BOLD LIARS!!
Postby Cynthia » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:33 pm UTC
Obviously not as Johann lives in Norway, and his claimed "eye witness accounts" have almost always been from afar and hear say...
None of these people know what they are talking about. They keep publishing their lies and claim that is the truth. What is the right term for that? What gives you the illusion I live in Norway now? I have been to more than 30 different countries. Are you sure all of them are "afar"?
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If they want you to be living in Norway now, then to them you live in Norway.
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I have always wondered why people who came waaaaaay after the fact are always questioning the account of an eyewitness. I could never make sense of that one.
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I have always wondered why people who came waaaaaay after the fact are always questioning the account of an eyewitness. I could never make sense of that one.
Whenever I peek at that other site i have a hard time finding anything that makes sense, and yet they seem to be so sure they are just right.
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Simpleist description of the den of vipers is UN-just and UN-righteous!!!
Think our Sir Mizer comes from thence? Of course one would have to ask what day and what thread, right?
Every which way but right, whomever it or they are.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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What can you expect of people who live in the atmosphere of presumptions based on false facts?
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And of course on one hand they demand multiple witness, multiple signed documents, notarized etc... ad nauseum but.....
They make statements that have not been witnessed by even one person or even documented by anyone other than the liars from 3ABN commune... er... compound.
just my own opinion by observation.
I have not had one iota of information sent from 3ABN that was true. I don't even believe in Danny's so called dream. He was just a good con artist that also was a good story teller.
I don't care if he is a narcisstic sycopath. He can't scare others who know the truth.
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Ezekiel 3:17
Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Ezekiel 18:26
When righteous people turn from their righteous behavior and start doing sinful things, they will die for it. Yes, they will die because of their sinful deeds.
Just now appears another first person witness of how Mrs. Quinn - fresh from editing a book by her Master deceiver on how to place the Ten Commandments - went around the 3ABN commune with another person picking up tidbits they could use for fuel roasting Linda and getting her out of the way. Seems like it could well be an act of envy to get Linda's time on the TV screen.
This poisoning mix of lethal lies seems to be a source of Cindy and Co's documental cocktails they have been spewing out both on BSDA, here, and at their own den of vipers.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
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It is funny you bring up the dream...given the history, shall we say we have no choice but to question the veracity of any dream that would be had by such a glaring hypocrite...I can say with certainty that based upon the requirements for "messengers of the Lord" set forth in the Bible and as exampled by the selection of three known humans visited and given a message to get to the REAL messenger, Ellen G. White, one must conclude that Danny Lee shelton was, and is, a fraud.
As to those who believe he is "the annointed one", as I said, PT Barnum summed it up: there is a sucker born every minute.
Given James Gilley's personal history, going back all the way to Southern New England and going forward, there are glaring
discrepancies that certainly must bring one to question his committment to "counteracting the counterfeit". As conference
President he is known to have hired known adulterers as pastors. As President of 3ABN he has ignored the evidence and
continues to cling to the notion that Danny Lee Shelton is the face of 3ABN and has continued to allow him to utilize it's
facilities to perpetual his personal goals.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
And of course on one hand they demand multiple witness, multiple signed documents, notarized etc... ad nauseum but.....
They make statements that have not been witnessed by even one person or even documented by anyone other than the liars from 3ABN commune... er... compound.
just my own opinion by observation.
I have not had one iota of information sent from 3ABN that was true. I don't even believe in Danny's so called dream. He was just a good con artist that also was a good story teller.
I don't care if he is a narcisstic sycopath. He can't scare others who know the truth.
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"As a faithful witness for God, he spoke out against a couple who had entered into a sinful relationship. Now the woman entangled in this situation became offended. She was embittered, and she felt scorned. And you know, there's something about her, that she was unconcerned about her relationship in the eyes of the Lord. Her worry revolved more around the possibility of losing her prominent position. So what did she do? She devised a plan to eliminate this one who had exposed her, and she enlisted the help of her young daughter. Now prompted by her mother, this daughter became entangled in the web of deceit, and she set out to set her mother's position and save it by destroying this man of God. What we see here is that the scheme was to go forward and go straight for the throat and have his head served up on a platter. Does this story sound familiar to you? To whom am I referring? John the Baptist, of course. ..."
"Now her mother is using her as a pawn. ..."
"Now how could such a holy, Spirit-filled man, who was hand-picked by God, and called to such an important ministry, fall victim to such vile persecution? Why would God allow it?"
(Shelley Quinn on 3ABN Today Live, 2nd hour, replayed at 4pm CDT, Sunday, August 13, 2006)
Who has been exposed to a vile persecution? Linda?
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I have always wondered why people who came waaaaaay after the fact are always questioning the account of an eyewitness. I could never make sense of that one.
Interesting... That was my thoughts when I first read all on BSDA. Why are all these people on BSDA, like princessdi, and this Gailon Joy, and Bob Pickle person who came waaaaaay after the fact, and have nothing to go on but the perspective of anonymous posters like *********************************** questioning all the actual eyewitnesses at 3abn and the thompsonville SDA church, calling them all liars and refusing to listen to them? For example I remember when Kay Kuzma, and Dr Thompson, Brenda Walsh, Danny Shelton, Pastor Lomaccang, and a host of others who were first person witnesses --and only spoke up after they were all publically vilified and falsely accused by Linda's group, to attempt to correct the false reports and lies -- pointed out that Johann wasn't even there when the things they recounted occurred, and that he, like Gregory Matthews and the other accusers were just going by what Linda Shelton had told them, yet you to this day believe his accounts and tales without question, and continue to question and insult the actual eyewitnesses and believe them liars... as do others like guide4him...
Sad...
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
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It is clear that Shelley Quinn, a consummate politician, had a vested interest in her affiliation with 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton.
I have always wondered if Shelly ever received her share of the royalties for Ten Commandments Twice Removed, and if she was included in the cute little arrangement with Dwight Hall?
And when will Shelley Quinn speak out against Danny Lee Shelton? When will she call DLS to confess, repent and reform?
Gailon Arthur Joy, AUReporter
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It is clear that Shelley Quinn, a consummate politician, had a vested interest in her affiliation with 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton.
I have always wondered if Shelly ever received her share of the royalties for Ten Commandments Twice Removed, and if she was included in the cute little arrangement with Dwight Hall?
And when will Shelley Quinn speak out against Danny Lee Shelton? When will she call DLS to confess, repent and reform?
Gailon Arthur Joy, AUReporter
All who know Shelly Quinn know she doesn't gossip or speak evil of any one, yet does speak out about right and wrong in a kind and Christian way. You obviously don't know her and your accusations and insinuations are false and you have no proof and so are unjustified and that's all I have to say about that because you will have to answer to the Almighty about that and be accountable one day soon.
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Ms Williams, you once again post from a position thousands of miles from the events and continue to support people you have made no serious effort to vet for the truth of events and actual documentation.
Clearly, Ms Williams, you are aware that it is the record that is the basis for millions of books throughout the millenia. Luke wrote an entire epistle and was not there. Many books about Stalin and Hitler are written by men who were not there. And how many histories of the Founders of America have been written by men who CLEARLY were not there. And what is that common thread that allows us to write histories without having been there?
Simple enough, Ms Williams, the written record and in 3ABN's case, hundreds of witnesses and thousands of documents that were there!!!
Now, you can continue to put your head in the sand and refuse to test the statements of the many, many players, but you have seen, and will continue to see, evidence presented in courts of law that is likewise documented. You can give it reasonable weight of evidence or you can continue to beleive the great LIE...the reality is your hero is not annointed and is the counterfet...get use to it...it is the reality!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy, AUReporter
I have always wondered why people who came waaaaaay after the fact are always questioning the account of an eyewitness. I could never make sense of that one.
Interesting... That was my thoughts when I first read all on BSDA. Why are all these people on BSDA, like princessdi, and this Gailon Joy, and Bob Pickle person who came waaaaaay after the fact, and have nothing to go on but the perspective of anonymous posters like ***************************** questioning all the actual eyewitnesses at 3abn and the thompsonville SDA church, calling them all liars and refusing to listen to them? For example I remember when Kay Kuzma, and Dr Thompson, Brenda Walsh, Danny Shelton and a host of others who were first person witnesses pointed out that Johann wasn't even there when the things they recounted occurred, yet you to this day believe his account and continue to question and insult them and believe them liars... as do others like guide4him...
Sad...
Edited only to remove inappropriate content from quoted post.
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As I said, the consummate politician...Shelley Quinn has seen plenty of evidence and has had access to the record and clearly is accountable for the failure to call sin by it's right name. She had no problem playing the shill for DLS when the daughter stepped forward and even put her statement into a notarized document form.
But Shelley Quinn has conveniently remained silent on the many issues, including Tommy Ray Shelton taking a programming position to replace Linda Sue Shelton. And how about the Ten Commandments Twice Removed royalties...tell me she does not know about that very personal issue. Shelley has adopted a survivalist approach and has allowed a hypocrite and a counterfeit to continue to exert influence and authority at a ministry that claims to be the ministry to "counteract the counterfeit".
Ms Williams, you, of all the people, should clearly be aware that E.G. White warns us against messages of Peace and safety as we near the end of time. The ministers calling for repentance, reformation and a renewed relationship with God are the true messengers and not those who ignore, and by their silence, endorse open and notorious sin!!! Including YOU!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
It is clear that Shelley Quinn, a consummate politician, had a vested interest in her affiliation with 3ABN and Danny Lee Shelton.
I have always wondered if Shelly ever received her share of the royalties for Ten Commandments Twice Removed, and if she was included in the cute little arrangement with Dwight Hall?
And when will Shelley Quinn speak out against Danny Lee Shelton? When will she call DLS to confess, repent and reform?
Gailon Arthur Joy, AUReporter
All who know Shelly Quinn know she doesn't gossip or speak evil of any one, yet does speak out about right and wrong in a kind and Christian way. You obviously don't know her and your accusations and insinuations are false and you have no proof and so are unjustified and that's all I have to say about that because you will have to answer to the Almighty about that and be accountable one day soon.
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Ms Williams, you once again post from a position thousands of miles from the events and continue to support people you have made no serious effort to vet for the truth of events and actual documentation.
I am sure you would like to believe that, and indeed choose to, but that is false. I have done my homework too. We both found exactly what we sought, just like the word of God assures us. But I dare to say the difference in what we found is due to what we were seeking. I merely sought the truth, where ever that led, and you and Pickle sought to find only that to condemn and prove guilt and justify yourselves, and continue to do that, I believe we should come together and reason, and did that, but imo you are both unreasonable and so prevent that with either myself, 3abn, or anyone you question because you only do that to find support for your own judgments and evil surmisings and condemnations. Again, that's all I have to say about that because you will have to answer to the Almighty about your accusations and be accountable one day soon, and the truth will then be revealed to all.
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And is that the same Almighty that you will have to answer to? And where is the evidence you would like to post to prove your position?
I am assuming you know that the Almighty knows the truth, the real truth and nothing but the truth. We have put all the documentation we are allowed to out there for the world to see...you should do the same Talk is cheap and the record is priceless...put your doumentation where your mouth is. Put the truth on the table Show me the evidence!!!
Gailon Arthur joy
AUReporter
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And is that the same Almighty that you will have to answer to? And where is the evidence you would like to post to prove your position?
I am assuming you know that the Almighty knows the truth, the real truth and nothing but the truth. We have put all the documentation we are allowed to out there for the world to see...you should do the same Talk is cheap and the record is priceless...put your doumentation where your mouth is. Put the truth on the table Show me the evidence!!!
Gailon Arthur joy
AUReporter
As I said, it is not that either of us didn't do our homework, our differences I believe are due to our perspective and what we sought, and that is how we ended up at odds.
I do believe that thr truth has nothing to fear upon examination. BUT--
I am sorry, but ************************************* Right now I am waiting to be edited or banned just due to my posts this morning...
I do trust that could occur ********************************************************************************.
What say you? And as it all started with Linda, does it make sense to you we should start with her first?
If not, what issue would you like to start with? And why? Do you think it fair that we could each bring up another issue, one specific thing at a time, and take turns doing so, maybe resolving them or maybe agreeing to disagree each time, (allowing others to decide for themselves) before moving on?
edited to add:
I do understand this somewhat: "We have put all the documentation we are allowed to out there for the world to see." and I am sure you realize without documentation that things cannot be credited. I also can not reveal all, but I think if those things could be explained as far as why they can't be revealed, then we could work with the rest and not worry about those things. IMHO
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
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For certain, the same cannot be said about Brenda Walsh, another name from your list. She said that Linda bought the tickets for Florida against her wishes, when Brenda herself reserved the tickets and instructed Dee Hildebrand to purchase them. Brenda said Linda's ticket was used, and Delta Airlines said it wasn't used.
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For certain, the same cannot be said about Brenda Walsh, another name from your list. She said that Linda bought the tickets for Florida against her wishes, when Brenda herself reserved the tickets and instructed Dee Hildebrand to purchase them. Brenda said Linda's ticket was used, and Delta Airlines said it wasn't used.
Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda.
How, then, is it possible to come to an agreement?
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For certain, the same cannot be said about Brenda Walsh, another name from your list. She said that Linda bought the tickets for Florida against her wishes, when Brenda herself reserved the tickets and instructed Dee Hildebrand to purchase them. Brenda said Linda's ticket was used, and Delta Airlines said it wasn't used.
Edited to remove inappropriate content, Cindy. You should know better by now. Toodles!!
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For certain, the same cannot be said about Brenda Walsh, another name from your list. She said that Linda bought the tickets for Florida against her wishes, when Brenda herself reserved the tickets and instructed Dee Hildebrand to purchase them. Brenda said Linda's ticket was used, and Delta Airlines said it wasn't used.
Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda.
How, then, is it possible to come to an agreement?
See? This is one of those issues. What time was it when Danny insisted, according to you, that Linda was in Florida with the Doctor? Can you document that? For the earlier planned trip was canceled and didn't take place according to all, ON BOTH SIDES.(including DS, who wrote to you about that, and others, many times,certainly he never claimed Linda was there then, for he said he had found out about and foiled that trip) And according to Dr A,in his public letter, you and your wife were there during easter vacation week during that cancelled trip... There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Maybe, GJ will choose to take these issues up with me, maybe not, but we know you have always refused to, and only answered with insults previous to now.
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And is that the same Almighty that you will have to answer to? And where is the evidence you would like to post to prove your position?
I am assuming you know that the Almighty knows the truth, the real truth and nothing but the truth. We have put all the documentation we are allowed to out there for the world to see...you should do the same Talk is cheap and the record is priceless...put your doumentation where your mouth is. Put the truth on the table Show me the evidence!!!
Gailon Arthur joy
AUReporter
As I said, it is not that either of us didn't do our homework, our differences I believe are due to our perspective and what we sought, and that is how we ended up at odds.
I do believe that thr truth has nothing to fear upon examination. BUT--
I am sorry, but ************************************* Right now I am waiting to be edited or banned just due to my posts this morning...
I do trust that could occur ********************************************************************************.
What say you? And as it all started with Linda, does it make sense to you we should start with her first?
If not, what issue would you like to start with? And why? Do you think it fair that we could each bring up another issue, one specific thing at a time, and take turns doing so, maybe resolving them or maybe agreeing to disagree each time, (allowing others to decide for themselves) before moving on?
edited to add:
I do understand this somewhat: "We have put all the documentation we are allowed to out there for the world to see." and I am sure you realize without documentation that things cannot be credited. I also can not reveal all, but I think if those things could be explained as far as why they can't be revealed, then we could work with the rest and not worry about those things. IMHO
Edited to remove inappropriate content.
ADMIN HAT ON
Ya think, Cindy? You know you are banned here under a variety of other user names, so you find another way to come sneaking back blowing hot air, insulting people and breaking AdventTalk forum rules. And now you are "waiting to be edited or banned just due to my posts this morning..." You are indeed a master of the obvious!! And how dare you have the audacity to come to AdventTalk, insult AdventTalk administration and selectively invite those you wish to dialogue with to the other forum! Were you referring to the smut site? Is that where you want to have an open and honest dialogue? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
ADMIN HAT OFF
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There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida.
Please date this alleged second planned trip to Florida. When was it? When did Linda's mother leave that alleged message?
Your failure to respond with a concrete date will be taken as firm evidence that you have none.
I certainly have never been able to find any other date for an alleged trip to Florida.
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There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Very easy, Pat. Until now there has never been a document for any trip by both Arild and Linda to anywhere before the divorce. You give the time Linda is suposed to be gone, and we will check it. Is that fair enough?
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So we have the context, shall we say that a lady from the Northwest believes she has a basis for questioning our record of events regarding Linda’s purported trip to meet Dr Arild Abrahamsen in Florida during the period of January 1 and the date of her termination by Dr. Thompson in the spring of 2004.
She asserts that it is possible we have the “wrong trip” but also fails to provide any evidence or a even a statement to support this presumption.
Obviously, it is important to revisit the first five months of 2004 and let her know how we came to the conclusion that we have published in some detail, including documentation.
The visit that began Brenda’s roving tale was in December of 2003 to visit her son who was being detoxed at a clinic in Norway run by Dr. Arild Abrahamsen. It was at this visit that the invitation went to both Brenda and Linda to have they and their husbands join Arild at his Florida Condo the week of the Orthodox Easter. We have documented that it was Brenda who was obviously quite excited about the vacation option and is the party that actually ordered the tickets. We have also documented that Linda’s ticket was not used. Both facts clearly refute the tall tales of Brenda Walsh and demonstrate her clear capacity to stretch the truth and Brenda has yet to respond to any of the evidence weighed against her and published despite numerous invitations to do so.
Let us note that we began our search for truth on this issue by carefully isolating the time periods. We then documented Linda’s schedule through-out the entire period from Jan 1, 2004 to Memorial Day when she was officially terminated by the board without a hearing on the merits or the issues and based upon what Dan largely “claimed” he had as evidence.
In fact every week and week-end was accounted for during this period and we know that Dr. Arild Abrahamsen had to cancel his trip to Florida because he was tied up at the clinic. There is no documented evidence that Linda met Dr Abrahamsen between December 2003 and Memorial Day week-end in 2004 when he traveled with retired Pr. Johann Thorvaldsen to assist Linda in her defense of the allegations leveled by Danny Lee Shelton with the assistance of the prevaricating Brenda Walsh who clearly had decided her bread would be better buttered by Danny Lee Shelton that by standing beside her purported friend, Linda Sue Shelton.
We also documented that Linda Sue Shelton and the Dr and Pr were not allowed to testify and it became a one sided presentation without representation. And the board began a well orchestrated effort to denigrate, vilify and exile Linda Sue Shelton carrying the effort to some very significant extremes, including but not limited to, the virtual eradication of her name from credits, the firing of any employee that opted to assist or maintain communications with her, prevention of her participation in church services in Illinois and even the interference with her invitations to speak at churches throughout North America.
Simply put, we put together a carefully constructed calendar and then plugged in the various events to include Linda’s travel calendar and found no gap to support a week or weekend tryst for Linda in Florida. Nor did we find any evidence to support the premise that the Dr was in Florida at any time during this period. Keep in mind a large block of time was taken by 3ABN promotional week-ends, including as I recall, the Australian Trip.
Given the weight of the evidence I welcome your production of something other than “thus sayeth Danny Lee Shelton” as he has repeatedly been shown to be “factually challenged”, better defined as a bold faced liar on several occasions. And I do not want to hear any premise that some information is not allowed to be produced, as time after time we have proven that upon production of the purported evidence, it clearly demonstrated Linda told the truth and Danny Lee Shelton had not.
Your turn to put forth your hypothesis and let’s put it to the test.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Just do this, Pat, and this would settle the matter.
So we have the context, shall we say that a lady from the Northwest believes she has a basis for questioning our record of events regarding Linda’s purported trip to meet Dr Arild Abrahamsen in Florida during the period of January 1 and the date of her termination by Dr. Thompson in the spring of 2004.
She asserts that it is possible we have the “wrong trip” but also fails to provide any evidence or a even a statement to support this presumption.
Obviously, it is important to revisit the first five months of 2004 and let her know how we came to the conclusion that we have published in some detail, including documentation.
The visit that began Brenda’s roving tale was in December of 2003 to visit her son who was being detoxed at a clinic in Norway run by Dr. Arild Abrahamsen. It was at this visit that the invitation went to both Brenda and Linda to have they and their husbands join Arild at his Florida Condo the week of the Orthodox Easter. We have documented that it was Brenda who was obviously quite excited about the vacation option and is the party that actually ordered the tickets. We have also documented that Linda’s ticket was not used. Both facts clearly refute the tall tales of Brenda Walsh and demonstrate her clear capacity to stretch the truth and Brenda has yet to respond to any of the evidence weighed against her and published despite numerous invitations to do so.
Let us note that we began our search for truth on this issue by carefully isolating the time periods. We then documented Linda’s schedule through-out the entire period from Jan 1, 2004 to Memorial Day when she was officially terminated by the board without a hearing on the merits or the issues and based upon what Dan largely “claimed” he had as evidence.
In fact every week and week-end was accounted for during this period and we know that Dr. Arild Abrahamsen had to cancel his trip to Florida because he was tied up at the clinic. There is no documented evidence that Linda met Dr Abrahamsen between December 2003 and Memorial Day week-end in 2004 when he traveled with retired Pr. Johann Thorvaldsen to assist Linda in her defense of the allegations leveled by Danny Lee Shelton with the assistance of the prevaricating Brenda Walsh who clearly had decided her bread would be better buttered by Danny Lee Shelton that by standing beside her purported friend, Linda Sue Shelton.
We also documented that Linda Sue Shelton and the Dr and Pr were not allowed to testify and it became a one sided presentation without representation. And the board began a well orchestrated effort to denigrate, vilify and exile Linda Sue Shelton carrying the effort to some very significant extremes, including but not limited to, the virtual eradication of her name from credits, the firing of any employee that opted to assist or maintain communications with her, prevention of her participation in church services in Illinois and even the interference with her invitations to speak at churches throughout North America.
Simply put, we put together a carefully constructed calendar and then plugged in the various events to include Linda’s travel calendar and found no gap to support a week or weekend tryst for Linda in Florida. Nor did we find any evidence to support the premise that the Dr was in Florida at any time during this period. Keep in mind a large block of time was taken by 3ABN promotional week-ends, including as I recall, the Australian Trip.
Given the weight of the evidence I welcome your production of something other than “thus sayeth Danny Lee Shelton” as he has repeatedly been shown to be “factually challenged”, better defined as a bold faced liar on several occasions. And I do not want to hear any premise that some information is not allowed to be produced, as time after time we have proven that upon production of the purported evidence, it clearly demonstrated Linda told the truth and Danny Lee Shelton had not.
Your turn to put forth your hypothesis and let’s put it to the test.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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What about the trips that Danny made to Florida without Linda? Brandy lived in Florida...
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Sister..... :goodpost:
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Did Linda and Danny not also travel together to Florida during this period? What happened then - to Danny?
What about the trips that Danny made to Florida without Linda? Brandy lived in Florida...
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Do I not recall that Linda and Brenda et al, went with the 3ABN team to Florida and DLS was a late comer showing up in the afternoon on Saturday?
Out of curiosity, anyone recall where that rally was held? Any chance it was close to Tampa area?
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReorter
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The visit that began Brenda’s roving tale was in December of 2003 to visit her son who was being detoxed at a clinic in Norway run by Dr. Arild Abrahamsen. It was at this visit that the invitation went to both Brenda and Linda to have they and their husbands join Arild at his Florida Condo the week of the Orthodox Easter.
I think it was in Dec. 2003 that Arild visited 3ABN. The trip to Norway ended on Feb. 6, 2004. See http://www.save-3abn.com/danny-shelton-demise-of-marriage-1.htm (http://www.save-3abn.com/danny-shelton-demise-of-marriage-1.htm).
So there aren't many weekends available for running off to Florida, especially since the tickets Brenda had 3ABN buy were for a trip on April 4. Any hypothetical alter trip would have to be after April 4 but before late May, and preferably a couple weeks before Danny found the pregnancy test.
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http://web.archive.org/web/20040208170940/www.3abn.org/
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Wow, Child, should have read my own archived story!!!
Thanks for the Link.
No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
If they had it they would have produced it several years back. So here we have a document that they are lying, but just are not ready to admit it yet. Right, Cindy?
-
No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
If they had it they would have produced it several years back. So here we have a document that they are lying, but just are not ready to admit it yet. Right, Cindy?
You may be waiting awhile, Joy. It appears that the place and conditions of a dialogue with you were removed from a post here and possibly even the poster if "toodles" from Snoopy means what I am presuming it does.
Cindy, did post something in reply to you earlier, Johann. It's below, since you keep claiming not to read there while replying to things said there. Possibly there may be more from myself or others as I see all kinds of errors in Joy's account and no documentation at all.
quote="Cynthia" in " New lies? Same ole lies..."
I was reading on Adventtalk, in the thread Johann started there entitled "New lies" and there are so many things on that forum that make you go hmmm...
Johan posted:« on: March 02, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »
my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida. When I refused to verify his claims and thereby doubting his universal knowledge of everything he got so angry that he had Walt Thompson fire me.
[Note:That is NOT why Johann was fired - quite obviously he couldn't be 3ABNs representative and promote them in Europe as he was hired to do while he was acting with bias and partiality against them and had become their accuser and refused to even listen to them or put the ministry first as he was repeatedly asked to do.]
Then he claimed that again:
Re: NEW LIES
Johan posted:« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 07:22:34 AM »
Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda.
So Pat asked him a simple question, when was it that he was claiming that Danny insisted to him that Linda was in Florida? He should know, right? Since he is claiming that isn't possible because he was with the Doctor in Norway at that same time.
Re: NEW LIES
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 07:39:36 AM »
See? This is one of those issues. What time was it when Danny insisted, according to you, that Linda was in Florida with the Doctor? Can you document that? For the earlier planned trip was canceled and didn't take place according to all, ON BOTH SIDES.(including DS, who wrote to you about that, and others, many times,certainly he never claimed Linda was there then, for he said he had found out about and foiled that trip) And according to Dr A,in his public letter, you and your wife were there during easter vacation week during that cancelled trip... There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
But, instead of answering, Johann asks Pat to tell him when it was, and says he'll check on it. What?!? He shouldn't have to ask . He has always claimed to know when it was! He's been posting for years now saying Danny insisted she went to Florida to see Arild Abrahamsson but she couldn't have because he was with the Doctor then.
Re: NEW LIES
Johan posted: « Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 11:59:54 AM »
Very easy, Pat. Until now there has never been a document for any trip by both Arild and Linda to anywhere before the divorce. You give the time Linda is suposed to be gone, and we will check it. Is that fair enough?
No, that is not fair enough. Either Johann is her alibi or he is NOT her alibi. How can he claim to have been her alibi and claim that's how he knows Danny lied for all these years if he doesn't even know when it was supposed to have been?
It is Johann who owes an answer here before he has the right to ask questions of others. Johann claimed:
"my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida"
What would be fair is for Johann to produce those writings he is making claims about, and answer the question he was asked instead of ignoring the question and avoiding that by asking his own and pretending that's reasonable and fair. It's not. Nor is this tactic new.../quote
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Sir Mizer:
We quite adequately addressed the issue in production of documents (3ABNvJoy.com) and in releases on Save-3ABN.net. Of course we had originally had done this timeline in anticipation of the ASI Hearing, but Danny simply didn't have the guts to face it on a level playing field!!! And even produced evidence of the tickets!!! Ain't it great???
If you missed them, give it a careful read...then see if you can fit in this belated new hypothesis of a new date, before the Campmeeting of May 2004...let your imagination go absolutely wild...but you must produce the ticket proof...BEST OF LUCK!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Wow, Child, should have read my own archived story!!!
Thanks for the Link.
No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
I would love to read your own archived story.
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No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
If they had it they would have produced it several years back. So here we have a document that they are lying, but just are not ready to admit it yet. Right, Cindy?
You may be waiting awhile, Joy. It appears that the place and conditions of a dialogue with you were removed from a post here and possibly even the poster if "toodles" from Snoopy means what I am presuming it does.
Cindy, did post something in reply to you earlier, Johann. It's below, since you keep claiming not to read there while replying to things said there. Possibly there may be more from myself or others as I see all kinds of errors in Joy's account and no documentation at all.
quote="Cynthia" in " New lies? Same ole lies..."
I was reading on Adventtalk, in the thread Johann started there entitled "New lies" and there are so many things on that forum that make you go hmmm...
Johan posted:« on: March 02, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »
my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida. When I refused to verify his claims and thereby doubting his universal knowledge of everything he got so angry that he had Walt Thompson fire me.
[Note:That is NOT why Johann was fired - quite obviously he couldn't be 3ABNs representative and promote them in Europe as he was hired to do while he was acting with bias and partiality against them and had become their accuser and refused to even listen to them or put the ministry first as he was repeatedly asked to do.]
Then he claimed that again:
Re: NEW LIES
Johan posted:« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 07:22:34 AM »
Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda.
So Pat asked him a simple question, when was it that he was claiming that Danny insisted to him that Linda was in Florida? He should know, right? Since he is claiming that isn't possible because he was with the Doctor in Norway at that same time.
Re: NEW LIES
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 07:39:36 AM »
See? This is one of those issues. What time was it when Danny insisted, according to you, that Linda was in Florida with the Doctor? Can you document that? For the earlier planned trip was canceled and didn't take place according to all, ON BOTH SIDES.(including DS, who wrote to you about that, and others, many times,certainly he never claimed Linda was there then, for he said he had found out about and foiled that trip) And according to Dr A,in his public letter, you and your wife were there during easter vacation week during that cancelled trip... There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
But, instead of answering, Johann asks Pat to tell him when it was, and says he'll check on it. What?!? He shouldn't have to ask . He has always claimed to know when it was! He's been posting for years now saying Danny insisted she went to Florida to see Arild Abrahamsson but she couldn't have because he was with the Doctor then.
Re: NEW LIES
Johan posted: « Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 11:59:54 AM »
Very easy, Pat. Until now there has never been a document for any trip by both Arild and Linda to anywhere before the divorce. You give the time Linda is suposed to be gone, and we will check it. Is that fair enough?
No, that is not fair enough. Either Johann is her alibi or he is NOT her alibi. How can he claim to have been her alibi and claim that's how he knows Danny lied for all these years if he doesn't even know when it was supposed to have been?
It is Johann who owes an answer here before he has the right to ask questions of others. Johann claimed:
"my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida"
What would be fair is for Johann to produce those writings he is making claims about, and answer the question he was asked instead of ignoring the question and avoiding that by asking his own and pretending that's reasonable and fair. It's not. Nor is this tactic new.../quote
What would you do with Danny's message?
There is absolutely no response in anythng you write. Same method as you people have been doing right from the beginning. Avoiding the real issue.
Dr. Arild Abrhamsen makes the claim that he has never been to Florida since some time before his wife died in August of 2003. Now you claim he has. You are guilty of making a false statement unless you can substantiate your claim.
Your attempt at throwing dust in the eyes of your readers by mentioning that Linda's mother had talked into the phone answering machine. But you did not give the date of that recording because that would foil your attempt at indicating there is some sense left in your claims.
Or do none of the people who were close enough to see "everything" notice the huge discrepancies in the information they are handing over to you? Is it easier to see that at a great distance?
Get down to business and verify some of your claims.
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That's not working, Johann. You are accusing another of what you yourself are doing and is the "Same method as you people have been doing right from the beginning. Avoiding the real issue."
First you answer the initial question asked of you, then you get to ask your follow up question and get an answer. So, to quote you again: "Get down to business and verify some of your claims."
Your claims here, were these:
Johan posted:« on: March 02, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »
"my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida.
Johan posted:« Reply #21 on: Yesterday at 07:22:34 AM »
" Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda."
You were asked When? what was the date you claim Danny insisted Linda was in Florida with the Doctor? What was that date you are claiming you were with the Doctor instead and so are the alibi for Arild Abrahamsson and Linda? and you were asked for the documentation you claim exists in the writings of Danny Shelton concerning that date.
For years you have called Danny a liar because of this, and for years you have caused others to call him a liar because of your personal testimony about this, so again, you are being asked to "Get down to business and verify some of your claims."
edited to fix quotes
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There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida.
Please date this alleged second planned trip to Florida. When was it? When did Linda's mother leave that alleged message?
Your failure to respond with a concrete date will be taken as firm evidence that you have none.
I certainly have never been able to find any other date for an alleged trip to Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
Would you care to answer the question that Pat Williams thus far refuses to answer? Hint: It would have to be between April 6 and the end of May, but could not fall on dates that Linda is known to have been elsewhere than Florida.
-
No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
A start, quoting:
Re: New lies? Same ole lies...
Postby Jamie » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:21 pm UTC
Joy's post over there is full of errors as I said, and it starts with the very first paragraph of the yarn he is spinning and continues from there with more errors or falsehoods.
I am rather busy but would at least like to address that first part briefly right now.
He posted:
Obviously, it is important to revisit the first five months of 2004 and let her know how we came to the conclusion that we have published in some detail, including documentation.
The visit that began Brenda’s roving tale was in December of 2003 to visit her son who was being detoxed at a clinic in Norway run by Dr. Arild Abrahamsen. It was at this visit that the invitation went to both Brenda and Linda to have they and their husbands join Arild at his Florida Condo the week of the Orthodox Easter. We have documented that it was Brenda who was obviously quite excited about the vacation option and is the party that actually ordered the tickets. We have also documented that Linda’s ticket was not used. Both facts clearly refute the tall tales of Brenda Walsh and demonstrate her clear capacity to stretch the truth
Noticeably he does not include any documentation with his post, and even though he boasts they have already done so elsewhere he doesn't cite it or quote where, and that's simply not good enough, and perhaps that is why he is in error here from the get go.
1. The visit to Norway when Nathan went for treatment was the first week in February 2004, not in December 2003
2. It was NOT during that visit that the invitation for the first Florida trip was made by the Doctor.
3. The invitation was NOT to Linda, and to Brenda and their spouses. It was originally to Linda only, and she never even told Danny about it.
4. Brenda was invited by Linda afterwords, and it was Brenda who was instrumental in the trip being canceled.
Linda Shelton can rebut Joy's story all by herself. Here is just one letter doing so , documentation which Pickle and Joy and Johann have, as she was writing to Johann at the time, back in April of 2004
The invitation was made to Linda only in February, who later added Brenda, according to both Linda and Brenda:
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Shelton
Sent: 16. april 2004 16:18
To: Johann Thorvaldsson
Subject: Re: Greetings
Hi Johann & Irmgard,
This is the partial story of the events I told you I was going to record. I think it helps clear up alot of
problems...
It was a miracle when I was able to convince Nathan to go and see Dr. Abrahamsen while he was here.
He tested Nathan and, of course, discovered that he was in a terrible physical condition. He said, "I think
I can help you but you would need to come to Norway." Somewhere in the conversation he offered
Nathan a place to stay and also treatments which would help him physically...and Nathan actually agreed
to go. It was scheduled for Nathan and his girlfriend, Dava, to go about January 21. I talked to this doctor
only a couple of times making the arrangements for this trip. Dan’s opinion was that the doctor sounded
like a "quack" but he thought just a month away from his friends would help.
Next, my best friend (of two years), Brenda and I flew to Norway to give Nathan support. We arrived
on Monday night February 2 and we left Friday morning, February 6. I was amazed at the difference in
Nathan’s appearance in only 10 days. He was gaining weight, his scars were healing and his attitude was
100% improved. I praised God that finally my miracle had come for my son. Afterwards, when home
again, I called to check on Nathan about twice a week...
Brenda and I had a pleasant visit with the doctor while we stayed in his home. He had lost his wife just
last August, and when he got home from work, in the evenings we were able to make him laugh and get
his mind off of his sorrows. He invited Brenda to come back in June for treatments, since she was in a
bad physical condition...he even offered to pay for her plane ticket. When Brenda and I left Norway, we
both felt we had gained a friend...
"At some point in February I was sharing with the doctor about how busy we were at 3ABN with
traveling and schedules and he said, "You know, I’m going to Florida over spring break, and you ought to
think about going down there to get some rest." I just changed the subject because I thought it would
never fit into my schedule anyway.... A week later when the doctor returned from
Africa, I mentioned to him that Brenda and I thought we’d go to Florida. He had totally forgotten
anything about it. But he agreed to go and he offered to provide his condominium as a place for us to
stay...Additionally, at the time of scheduling our tickets, Dan was not in a good mood, so I did not
mention to him that the doctor would be in Florida at the same time. However about two weeks later
after Brenda talked with Dan, she came to me and said "Dan is getting pretty irate about you talking to
the doctor. We better cancel him." I immediately agreed. However, he offered the condo for us to stay in
although he wouldn’t be there."
From a Notorized statement by Ida Smith recounting her "alleged" conversation with Brenda Walsh, in Pickle and Joy's possession and filed in court by them:
She said, yes she was Linda's friend who went to Norway to see Nathan but Linda had only used her. When they got off the plane the Doctor and Nathan was there to meet them. Linda took off running and ran right into the Doctors arms and threw her arms around his neck and he lifted Linda up in the air and swung her around in the air. They went to the Doctors house to stay. It had 2 bedrooms and Brenda and Linda shared a bed in the one bedroom. At 2:00 AM Brenda got awoke and realized Linda was gone. Soon she (Brenda) heard Linda and the Doctor in the next bedroom laughing and having fun. Brenda was very hurt and sad and began to cry and pray for Linda until 5:00 AM. Brenda said Linda paid Nathan $500.00 just so Linda could go to Norway to see the Dr.
When they got home Linda wanted Brenda to go to Florida and take their lap-top computers so they could get alot of work done on the books they were both writing. Then Brenda found out Dr Abrahamsson was going to be there also and Brenda asked Linda what Dan thought about the Dr going to be there. Linda hadn't told Dan. ...Brenda thought Dan had a right to know these things so Brenda told him.
More to come... end of quote
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There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida.
Please date this alleged second planned trip to Florida. When was it? When did Linda's mother leave that alleged message?
Your failure to respond with a concrete date will be taken as firm evidence that you have none.
I certainly have never been able to find any other date for an alleged trip to Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
Would you care to answer the question that Pat Williams thus far refuses to answer? Hint: It would have to be between April 6 and the end of May, but could not fall on dates that Linda is known to have been elsewhere than Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
It looks like a distraction tactic on your part to be pointing out where Gailon has forgotten some details, while neglecting the all important point of when Pat William's alleged second trip to Florida was.
PLEASE, tell us when the alleged second trip took place. Without an actual second trip, Brenda's tale is a lie.
-
The important point is that Linda and Brenda were both going, Brenda, not Linda, ordered the tickets, the Dr was not going to be there, the ladies could have gone but did not because Danny was in a "bad mood".
Now Danny has repeatedly claimed Linda met the Doctor in Florida and it simply NEVER happened.
The Danny Lee Shelton circle is now propogating a new Lie that it was another date then we have documented that Linda did not use the ticket from the Ticket issuer. SO give us a date and provide ticket information and we will chase it down...and yes, Danny Lee Shelton is, and has been, a LIAR!!!
Remember the assertion that McNeilus was paying for the lawsuit? We know that is a lie and perhaps you would like to prove otherwise.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
-
There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida.
Please date this alleged second planned trip to Florida. When was it? When did Linda's mother leave that alleged message?
Your failure to respond with a concrete date will be taken as firm evidence that you have none.
I certainly have never been able to find any other date for an alleged trip to Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
Would you care to answer the question that Pat Williams thus far refuses to answer? Hint: It would have to be between April 6 and the end of May, but could not fall on dates that Linda is known to have been elsewhere than Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
It looks like a distraction tactic on your part to be pointing out where Gailon has forgotten some details, while neglecting the all important point of when Pat William's alleged second trip to Florida was.
PLEASE, tell us when the alleged second trip took place. Without an actual second trip, Brenda's tale is a lie.
Bob, you can keep asking questions, and issuing your ultimatums till dooms day but I for one am never going to answer your demands. Like Pat before me, I don't want to dialogue with you either precisely because of that type of thing. I believe straight forward communication with you impossible. The fact that you are either ignoring the basics of a courteous and respectful discussion, or can't comprehend that Johann was asked a question first and needs to answer, before others here can expect their secondary question to be reasonably answered whether by Pat or another in turn, confirms that for me. Have a nice evening.
-
Bob, you can keep asking questions till dooms day but I for one will not answer your demands. Like Pat before me, I don't want to dialogue with you either as I believe straight forward communication with you impossible. The fact that you are either ignoring the basics of a courteous and respectful discussion, or can't comprehend that Johann was asked a question first and needs to answer, before you can all expect your secondary question to be courteously answered by Pat or another in turn, confirms that for me. Have a nice evening.
Have a nice day.
Long before that I have been asking questions that have never been answered except with your distraction tactics.
It is you who have been accusing Linda and Arild of making a trip together without giving any hint that indicates you are telling the truth. An accuser has to verify the accusations unless the other party readily admits, which is far from being the case here.
You keep covering your statements with false accusations and think you manage to get away with it.
-
Bob, you can keep asking questions till dooms day but I for one will not answer your demands. Like Pat before me, I don't want to dialogue with you either as I believe straight forward communication with you impossible. The fact that you are either ignoring the basics of a courteous and respectful discussion, or can't comprehend that Johann was asked a question first and needs to answer, before you can all expect your secondary question to be courteously answered by Pat or another in turn, confirms that for me. Have a nice evening.
Have a nice day.
Long before that I have been asking questions that have never been answered except with your distraction tactics.
It is you who have been accusing Linda and Arild of making a trip together without giving any hint that indicates you are telling the truth. An accuser has to verify the accusations unless the other party readily admits, which is far from being the case here.
You keep covering your statements with false accusations and think you manage to get away with it.
Did you miss this, or was there something about it that you didn't understand?
Re: NEW LIES
« Reply #41 on: Today at 12:41:50 PM »
That's not working, Johann. You are accusing another of what you yourself are doing and is the "Same method as you people have been doing right from the beginning. Avoiding the real issue."
First you answer the initial question asked of you, then you get to ask your follow up question and get an answer. So, to quote you again: "Get down to business and verify some of your claims."
Your claims here, were these:
Johan posted:« on: March 02, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »
"my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida.
Johan posted:« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2011 at 07:22:34 AM »
" Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda."
You were asked When? what was the date you claim Danny insisted Linda was in Florida with the Doctor? What was that date you are claiming you were with the Doctor instead and so are the alibi for Arild Abrahamsson and Linda? and you were asked for the documentation you claim exists in the writings of Danny Shelton concerning that date.
For years you have called Danny a liar because of this, and for years you have caused others to call him a liar because of your personal testimony about this, so again, you are being asked to "Get down to business and verify some of your claims."
-
There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida.
Please date this alleged second planned trip to Florida. When was it? When did Linda's mother leave that alleged message?
Your failure to respond with a concrete date will be taken as firm evidence that you have none.
I certainly have never been able to find any other date for an alleged trip to Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
Would you care to answer the question that Pat Williams thus far refuses to answer? Hint: It would have to be between April 6 and the end of May, but could not fall on dates that Linda is known to have been elsewhere than Florida.
Yesir Myzing,
It looks like a distraction tactic on your part to be pointing out where Gailon has forgotten some details, while neglecting the all important point of when Pat William's alleged second trip to Florida was.
PLEASE, tell us when the alleged second trip took place. Without an actual second trip, Brenda's tale is a lie.
Bob, you can keep asking questions, and issuing your ultimatums till dooms day but I for one am never going to answer your demands. Like Pat before me, I don't want to dialogue with you either precisely because of that type of thing. I believe straight forward communication with you impossible. The fact that you are either ignoring the basics of a courteous and respectful discussion, or can't comprehend that Johann was asked a question first and needs to answer, before others here can expect their secondary question to be reasonably answered whether by Pat or another in turn, confirms that for me. Have a nice evening.
Excuses, excuses. And distorted besides.
Pat's "question" to Johann, which I was referring to, specifically stated:
There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Now if Pat was really telling the truth, if it really is so well documented, then Pat (and you) would be able to answer the question as to when the other alleged trip to Florida took place. But obviously you can't answer it, not because you don't want to converse with me, but because you don't have an answer, and don't have any documentation to prove Pat's mere assertion to be correct.
Therefore, it seems safe to conclude that Pat's hypothesis is false.
-
No response regarding the new visit hypothesis, huh???
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
If they had it they would have produced it several years back. So here we have a document that they are lying, but just are not ready to admit it yet. Right, Cindy?
You may be waiting awhile, Joy. It appears that the place and conditions of a dialogue with you were removed from a post here and possibly even the poster if "toodles" from Snoopy means what I am presuming it does.
Thanks, but actually I picked up that term from Cindy Conard Ford - you might ask her what it means...
-
Quoting:
Re: New lies? Same ole lies...
Postby Pat Williams » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:17 am UTC
Bob, you can keep asking questions, and issuing your ultimatums till dooms day but I for one am never going to answer your demands. Like Pat before me, I don't want to dialogue with you either precisely because of that type of thing. I believe straight forward communication with you impossible. The fact that you are either ignoring the basics of a courteous and respectful discussion, or can't comprehend that Johann was asked a question first and needs to answer, before others here can expect their secondary question to be reasonably answered whether by Pat or another in turn, confirms that for me. Have a nice evening.
Excuses, excuses. And distorted besides.
Pat's "question" to Johann, which I was referring to, specifically stated:
There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Now if Pat was really telling the truth, if it really is so well documented, then Pat (and you) would be able to answer the question as to when the other alleged trip to Florida took place. But obviously you can't answer it, not because you don't want to converse with me, but because you don't have an answer, and don't have any documentation to prove Pat's mere assertion to be correct.
Therefore, it seems safe to conclude that Pat's hypothesis is false.
Typical editing, misquoting, and reinterpretation to support Pickle's faulty logic and conclusions....
Which means nothing...
I too am merely waiting on your answer, Johann, so we can all move on...
from: Pat Williams on Yesterday at 07:39:36 AM
from: Johann on Yesterday at 07:22:34 AM
Not only that, but Irmgard and I were staying with Dr. Arild Abrhamsen in Norway during all of that time Danny Shelton insisted he was in Florida together with Linda.
How, then, is it possible to come to an agreement?
See? This is one of those issues. What time was it when Danny insisted, according to you, that Linda was in Florida with the Doctor? Can you document that? For the earlier planned trip was canceled and didn't take place according to all, ON BOTH SIDES.(including DS, who wrote to you about that, and others, many times,certainly he never claimed Linda was there then, for he said he had found out about and foiled that trip) And according to Dr A,in his public letter, you and your wife were there during easter vacation week during that cancelled trip... There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Maybe, GJ will choose to take these issues up with me, maybe not, but we know you have always refused to, and only answered with insults previous to now.
You Johann, claimed to have the documentation for your claims and alibi in writings from Danny to you, justifying your accusations against Danny:
Johann posted:« on: March 02, 2011, 04:24:33 PM »
"my first wife, Irmgard, and I, spent all the time during the spring of 2004 with Dr. Arild Abrahamsen that a certain Danny Shelton claimed in his writings to me that Linda was together with the Doctor in Florida.
I would like to quote this also in summation:
"For years you have called Danny a liar because of this, and for years you have caused others to call him a liar because of your personal testimony about this, so again, you are being asked to "Get down to business and verify some of your claims."
Edited to add just one example of how you have been saying this and accusing Danny about this for years:
Johann on Blacksda Jan 7 2007, 09:15 AM
I fought to convince everybody that Mr. Danny Shelton was a trustworthy person, just like you, Walt, Mr. Fallible, and certain others, are still doing. What forced me to chage my mind? It was when Danny insisted that Dr. Arild Abrhamsen was in Florida together with Linda at a time when my wife, Irmgard, and I were staying with him in Norway, and she was getting daily treatments from him for her cancer. I knew that it was impossible for him to be in Florida and Norway at the same time. So when Danny kept insisting I knew that the Brethren had a reason why they did not trust Mr. Danny Shelton.
end of quoted message
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You may be waiting awhile, Joy. It appears that the place and conditions of a dialogue with you were removed from a post here and possibly even the poster if "toodles" from Snoopy means what I am presuming it does.
Thanks, but actually I picked up that term from Cindy Conard Ford - you might ask her what it means...
I also remember that Cindy used that term first.
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Well, Johann, I fear you are correct...Sir Mizer is in fact Madame Mizer...live and learn but this format is classic!!! And ISP's simply do not lie.
And the response is the same...I AM ABOVE THE LAW...I DO NOT NEED TO PROVE ANYTHING...I KNOW BETTER THAN YOU, DESPITE THE EVIDENCE...
I HAVE ACCESS TO THE ANNOINTED ONE AND HE NEVER LIES...I WILL NOT ANALYZE ANY EVIDENCE OTHER THAN ANY WAY THAT IS FAVORABLE TO THE ANNOINTED ONE - DANNY LEE SHELTON...AND TOMMY HAS NEVER SEXUALLY ASSAULTED ANYONE AND THE ALLEGATIONS ARE ALL BASELESS RUMORS. But, the dice say he is going to jail - despite his innocense.
The sad thing about this entire epic battle is that EVERYONE BUT THE PERPETRATOR AND SEXUAL PREDATOR WILL BE PAYING FOR HIS SINS!!!
On the other hand, Madame Mizer is so unreasonable and outrageous she adds significantly to the thrill of the debate and adds a flavor that is just so distinct it is MATCHLESS.
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Quote from: Pat Williams on March 06, 2011, 02:39:36 PM
There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Yes, Irmgard and I were with Arild at the only time when a trip to Forida had been planned. It was only after they discovered that Irmgard and I had been with him then that this new theory of another trip was invented to cover up the previous false accusation. That "new" trip has never been sustantiated. Now it your opportunity to verify that it took place, if you insist on it being so.
Nick Miller also questioned me on that possbility during Camp Meeting time in 2004 when I told him that I had been with Arild during the time they insisted Arild and Linda had been to Florida. Nick never insisted there had been "another" trip at that meeting. It appeared to me he was just trying to "help" Danny by suggesting it could have been at another time.
It was at that same meeting I heard John Lomacang lying by inisisting Arild had said the opposite of what he actually said in a phone conversation. This in spite of Arild telling John the evening before he was not quoting him right - and I heard then what Arild told John.
Until that day I had trusted John. Then I knew he had also conspired to support Danny's lies.
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Bob, you can keep asking questions, and issuing your ultimatums till dooms day but I for one am never going to answer your demands. Like Pat before me, I don't want to dialogue with you either precisely because of that type of thing. I believe straight forward communication with you impossible. The fact that you are either ignoring the basics of a courteous and respectful discussion, or can't comprehend that Johann was asked a question first and needs to answer, before others here can expect their secondary question to be reasonably answered whether by Pat or another in turn, confirms that for me. Have a nice evening.
Excuses, excuses. And distorted besides.
Pat's "question" to Johann, which I was referring to, specifically stated:
There was reportedly more than one trip planned to Florida, and there was reportedly only one time that Linda was gone and unaccounted for and unresponsive and that was the time when her mother called and left a message for Linda on DS and LS's answering machine regarding her being in Florida. Were you and Irmgard with the Doctor then, Johann? When was that? Tell everyone, please as it is documented.
Now if Pat was really telling the truth, if it really is so well documented, then Pat (and you) would be able to answer the question as to when the other alleged trip to Florida took place. But obviously you can't answer it, not because you don't want to converse with me, but because you don't have an answer, and don't have any documentation to prove Pat's mere assertion to be correct.
Therefore, it seems safe to conclude that Pat's hypothesis is false.
Typical editing, misquoting, and reinterpretation to support Pickle's faulty logic and conclusions....
Which means nothing...
I too am merely waiting on your answer, Johann, so we can all move on...
Johann has answered you. Now will either you or Pat finally answer the very simple question as to when this alleged second trip to Florida took place, the alleged second trip which is allegedly documented?
Is it at all possible that Pat's idea of documentation is like that of Lorri MacGregor, the bitter ex-JW anti-Adventist critic who told me that her video was "all fully documented"? http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/macgregor-ministries.htm (http://www.pickle-publishing.com/papers/jeremiah-films/macgregor-ministries.htm). Of particular interest was Lorri's use of Stephen Pierce's description of his wife Almira's post-1852 depression to prove that Ellen White said in her own words that she was in a hopeless condition for months after Christ didn't come as expected on October 22, 1844.
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It looks to me like a phishing expedition in an attempt to have me put dates on a trip that never took place. Some people can be so funny you don't know if you should laugh or cry - and if it is hopeless to pray for them?
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Phishing expedition--good point, Johann!
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More like a deliberate attempt to create confusion and undermine credibility. KEEP IT SIMPLE AND DRIVE MADAME MIZER NUTS!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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A stunning group with sterling minds,
And starlit dreams from yonder tales,
They miximize in Nozir kinds
Their mindsplit quotes in fairy sales.
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I for one am never going to answer your demands.
Myze demands, demands, demands,
Deliberally threatening out of hands,
Yet never will she state her Yes
And just her innocence confess.
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You know I won't even pretend to know ALL that is going on in this thread, but I do see Nosir askign for documentation. I just have to say that DS and supporters claimed for years on end to have allkinds of documentation against Linda, phone records, PI pics, travel tickets, a backstabbing friend.......but NONE, and I do mean NONE of it materialized in any court of law, divorce civil, as they promised......NONE. they said they weren't posting their "evidence" on BSDA because they were saving it for court. Since then they have been to court for so many reasons, and yet no phone records. Where are those incriminating pics from the PI?
My point? Nosir needs to stop demanding documentation until his side makes good on theor promises to produce unrefutable evidence against Linda.
As for questioning Johann, I think the burden of proof is on you, Nosir. You need to bring some concrete evidence that compromise Johann's credibility. Once again, stop demanding proof when you all have never given one bit.
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Here, Here!!!
But a word to the wise...can't produce what you never really had!!!
Gailon Arthur Joy
AUReporter
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Yes, I joined the discussion with Nestor (Gregory) on the other site:
The questions asked are good. As I understand them they are two:
1) To what extent did Linda’s transfer of membership violate denominational policy?
2) Why would I consider it to be unethical for the Thompsonville congregation to determine whether or not Linda should be disciplined?
The above questions are valid and complex. I will respond to them.
It is thought by many, to include myself, that there are two (2) fundamental rights that belong to the local congregation and that cannot be abridged by outside influences. Those two rights are:
1) The right to determine who is and who is not a member of the local congregation. This includes the ability to discipline a member and exiting them from membership.
2) The right of the congregation to elect whomever they chose to the offices in the congregation that are elected by the congregation.
These two rights are perceived by many to “trump” other issues of denominational policy. This is where I personally am. IOW, a local congregation may be advised that they have wronged a person in the discipline that the congregation has administered, but the congregation cannot be compelled to effect a change in discipline, membership or elected office. The congregation can only be advised to do so.
This is how that policy works in actual practice: Congregation X exits a person from membership and that individual appeals to the Conference. The President advises the congregation that they have acted wrongly and the congregation refuses to change. At that point, the President has the option of going to another SDA Congregation and recommending that it accept the individual into membership on Profession of Faith. NOTE: That can only be a recommendation and cannot be forced upon that congregation.
NOTE: There are some minor alternative ways to address specific situations which I will not mention here as they are not relevant to this discussion.
When a congregation places a member under censure, that congregation continues to hold by denominational policy some responsibility for the spiritual nurture of that person. Under this condition, it is problematic by policy for that person to transfer membership, even though a receiving congregation may have the right to do so.
When a member is exited from congregational membership, that congregation is no longer responsible for the spiritual nurture of that person. In this case, the receiving congregation is only obligated to take steps to understand the issues involved the loss of membership prior to taking the person into their membership either by baptism or profession of faith (POF). IOW, the previous congregation can only advise or inform and cannot prevent the person from becoming a member again of POF. If the receiving congregation believes that it has enough of an understanding of the issues involved, it is not required to make any contact with the other congregation. Frankly, this happens often in actual practice.
When the Thompsonville congregation acted to remove Linda from membership, it opened up the way for her to be taken into membership of another congregation which would only have the obligation to become informed of the issues to the point where it would be willing to take Linda into membership on POF. By removing Linda from membership, the Thompsonville congregation no longer had much input into her membership into another congregation.
Folks, you can quote the CHUCH MANUEL to me. You can challenge me. The CHURCH MANUAL does not lock congregations into concrete. People who have been exited from SDA congregations are quite often accepted into membership into other SDA congregations by either baptism or Profession of Faith.
So, what about the Thompsonville congregation and ethics?
As the question was asked, there was an implication that the Thompsonville SDA Church and/or Pastor L. might have acted inappropriately toward Linda. Ethics does not require such to be determined. It does not have to be an issue whether or not individual people would have been unjust to Linda. Perhaps they would not have treated her justly. Perhaps they would have been both just and fair. That is not relevant.
A major aspect of ethics is appearance. Professional organizations have rules of ethics that deal with appearance. One such rule involves “dual relationships.” Ethical standards uniformly require that people with dual relationships recuse themselves, or be removed, in cases of dual relationships. Pastor L. might have been fair and just in his treatment of Linda. I do not charge that he would have been either unfair or unjust to her. But, due to his relationship to 3-ABN and Danny Shelton and how his salary was paid, he had a dual relationship. So, did other people. The common ethical standards of the secular world today raised real “red flags” in regard to the Thompsonville congregation determining discipline for Linda. Compliance with those standards would have required another forum to determine whether or not to discipline her. Such is not easily done in the SDA Church. So, her transfer was arranged by another method that was within the boundaries of SDA policy and is done more often that you may realize.
Gregory Matthews
I find this discussion quite interesting because it reveals more to me on what Cindy & Co are basing their assumption. If I understand you right here, it appears like you presume that Linda did not follow the "rules" as outlined in the Chrurch Manual and you take that as a proof that she avoided the Church censure because she did not want to "admit" her mistakes? Is that right? Could it be that all of our discussions and "acccusations" are caused because we thus do not base our reasoning on the same premises?
Gregory is right that he was one of the pastors suggesting Linda should request her membership be dropped from the Thompsonville Church and then joining another church by profession of faith, but he was not the only one - besides me - who did that. All basing their suggestion on how such problems have been solved in a number of other instances within the Seventh-day Adventist Church, so this was far from a new idea just out of the blue. People who have used this method before feel it is not against Scripture, the Spirit of Prophecy, nor the Church Manual.
Let me just add right here that by using modern communication vehicles I was in constant communication with many individual thousands of miles apart, and as I have said several times before, one of my best sources of what was happening was Danny Shelton himself. That does not mean that we agreed on things, nor does it mean that I will dig down in my archives to post a quote from his letters to me just to satisfy any demands.
The procedures in the Thompsonville Church lasted many months. At first Linda requested her membership be transferred from Thompsonville to Springfield, but there was no reaction for several months, and this was one reason it was sugested she would ask for her membership to be dropped since it looked like John Lomacang was not doing anything.
Another reason was that at least a couple of people closely associated with the Thompsonville Church made it known that John Lomacang talked to the board members. What happened then could be compared to what happened between Jesus entereing Jerusalem and a few days later when the same people who had been hailing Jesus shouted "Crusify him!" Insiders warned Linda that the board was prepared to lynch Linda if she came to their meeting - all this in spite of the beautiful and seemingly "christian" letter he wrote.
Since this warning came from at least one member of the Thompsonville Church board, what would you have done in Linda's case? At least a couple of people supported this warning. Would you have just ignored it by stepping into the lion's den? Also when Gregory and others assured her there was a better way out of her situation. How would you handle that?
Johann Thorvaldsson
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The last three posts here have been moved over to a new section "Brenda's Tales"