Advent Talk
General Category => General Discussions => Topic started by: Jise on April 16, 2011, 10:10:13 AM
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I read Bill Knott's article at: http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2011-1510&page=6
But it seems this kind of article allows for so-called "leaders" to rumour monger the laity -but yet does not hold the leaders or even the laity accountable within the Church.
Another QUestion - is the Adventist Church really of God in the structure of the Church? The non-congregationalist Structure of the Church is anti-bibilical and does not mimic the governance structure of the early church.
Another issue is that the Adventist church posits itself as the remnant and bride of Christ - and the only church that fits this model - and this is actually anti-biblical - no where in the bible - does it say that the Adventist Church is the bride of Christ or the remnant.
Many of the Adventist Church's own leaders, particularly some of them in the Michigan conference are rumour mongerers - why is it that Bill KNott does not call these people out in his article?
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Also, what is to explain the lack of church accountability for holding leaders or people calling themselves leaders accountable for errant behavior.
Is every allegation merely a rumour? Why is it that BIll KNott seems to be arguing for a lack of Church discipline in his article and mere acceptance of any and all sorts omoral compromise - simply because the Adventist Church wants to allow ungodly people to continue in its fellowship, even as leaders.
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I don't see Bill Knott arguing against church discipline at all. The examples of rumors he gives do not concern actual, real problems, or things that the rumor spreader first verified by speaking with the person supposedly at fault.
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Bill Knott--"The church has real difficulties enough that we dare not spend our energies distracted by the rumor-mongering that fastens on first one and then another church institution, leader, or pastor."
I feel that Editor Knott is hiding behind Ellen White quotes to distract his readers from things like the enormous problems that have come up with Adventist educational institutions accepting evolutionary theories and passing them along to the students.
The Seventh-day Adventist church is not handling that situation any more effectively than they are the 3ABN situation.
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Although I will have to say one thing for the liberal progressives in our church--at least they don't, for the most part, watch 3ABN!
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Bill Knott--"The church has real difficulties enough that we dare not spend our energies distracted by the rumor-mongering that fastens on first one and then another church institution, leader, or pastor."
I feel that Editor Knott is hiding behind Ellen White quotes to distract his readers from things like the enormous problems that have come up with Adventist educational institutions accepting evolutionary theories and passing them along to the students.
The Seventh-day Adventist church is not handling that situation any more effectively than they are the 3ABN situation.
Did Knott write an article addressing the La Sierra situation? I seem to recall that he did, but I may be wrong.
"The church has real difficulties enough ...." Couldn't that refer to La Sierra and 3ABN?
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The evolutionary situation affects more schools than La Sierra.
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Knott's concern is the "millions yet unreached", and he would like us to ignore other things going on.
I remember that Ellen White said something to the effect that God didn't work to bring many people into the Adventist church because of the condition of the church.
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Well, now I think a better question is.......Jise......is ther a specific problem you have with the michigan Conference. I mean you ahve been hinting(very loudly I might add) at your issues for a while.
Now, how, exactly do you perceive you or a loved ones was unfarily treated by the church, in particular the Michigan Conference?
I'm going to give you an opportunity to vent. because you start out with some very good points, but they kind of get lost in your apparent anger with the church. You can put it in PM if you like. ;D
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At the bottom of http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=3227 (http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=3227) is Knott responding to criticism of the Review's article on the LSU evolution controversy.
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Thank you, Bob.
"The news report also noted the activity of those criticizing the university’s science teaching: it neither aligned itself with those criticisms nor endorsed the manner in which they have made their criticisms public."
The above disclaimer by Bill Knott appears to distance the editorial side of the Review from the criticisms in the article which pointed out what was happening at La Sierra.
Bill Knott in this instance clearly does not side with upholding church beliefs on creationism. I assume that this is because he does not want to deal with the criticism that accompanies this stance.
Other institutions, Loma Linda, PUC, and Andrews coming to mind, also have widespread disbelief in a 6 day creation model.
I know this because of conversations with friends and acquaintances associated with a couple of these places (whose beliefs about this were different than mine) and there have been also some online reports of conversations.
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Disbelieving the 6-day creation in favor of what other belief?
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Many "conservative" Adventists, including some in the Michigan Conference essentially believe that biblical and societal norms do not apply to them - they claim to be most moral and biblical even when many of them are some of the most immoral people around. They claim to be "conservative" because they don't believe in even basic human rights and decency for other ethnic groups.
I've been in the SDA Church and studied it. From my interactions with Adventists who've been in the Church longer than I am - I knew that there was something really wrong with this Church even more so than even more traditional denominations, wherein the Adventists including Ted Wilson - claim are more wrong theologically than Adventism.
First, I've seen a so-called self-ascribed or wannabe "leader" in the Michigan Conferance, that has endorsed sexual fornication, defrauding, dishonesty, slander, and has engaged in slander himself for a situation for which he has no first hand knowledge. The Bible as well as Ellen White condemn all manner of stealing, seeking to impose yourself on others through fraud - and cheating others through fraud - yet this Michigan conference person endorses these things - things I never found to be endorsed by believers in other denominations I've been affiliated with.
This person has also talked against "dancing" in the Church - in his bid to scandalize other people's cultures - he is really no different from other Adventist who were "pastors" that have been arrested for fomenting the Rwandan Genocide.
He is a false prophet and the bible speaks about how many will prefer the doctrines of demons and false prophets to what is actually written in the bible - and much of his doctrine is wrong - including his article specifically written about "dance".
First of all, he condemns drums because he alleges that it was never a part of the traditional worship of the early christians.
But what he forgets to mention is that God in the Bible endorses dance as a valid part of worship - and the early christians engaged in dance as part of their worship. This buffoon in the Michigan Conference has criticized "criticism" of theology - merely expecting all to accept what he and others and EGW says as the Gospel - ignoring the fact that God does not want Believers to accept the doctrine of "demons" or false prophets - and specifically says let's come reason together. One has to understand what one is believing in - and understand the biblical basis before one blindly accepts.
I've come to realize that the Adventist Church is simpy unbiblical in many realms. I told one of my friends who had a little respect but not much for the SDA Church that the SDA Church allowed "abortions" in its hospital -and this was the last straw for my friend; my friend responded that the Adventists are "odious".
I wonder why the "conservatives" in the SDA Church don't decry abortions in their hospitals - is it because they are afraid of offending the bureacracy that employs them?
Another thing about the adventist Church - it appeals to those who seek and like "western" worldliness.
The non-congregational structure of the church is unbiblical in the sense that it does not mirror the governance structure of early christians. Many of its "leaders" are very wordly and by their lifestyles it would seem that these leaders are wicked.
This leader I referenced above - I believe much of his theology is driven by the fact that he is "worldy" and envious of the fact that he has not been blessed to be as prosperous or as pure as others that he condemns. His ministry is tribalist - driven.
If you research this man's records -it's so embarrassing - he took out about 100% financing on a mortgage for a house originally - that has dropped in value - he's approximately $60,000 underwater.
Also to tell you of the "worldliness" of the Adventist Church as evidenced by its non-congregational structure to support its massive bureacracy - did you know that the Adventist Church has a corporation that gives out mortgages - is this Godly or worldy?
Have you checked into the Vice Presidents at the GC to see if they are living a Godly or worldly 'lifestyle"? I happened to learn from public records - and this is not a rumour -but verifiable - that this one vice president who hails from a conference wherein many of the members support all manner of immorality - took out about 100% financing for a house -t hat has dropped about $100,000 in value.
Was this smart? Was it greedy? Is this how we expect "our" leaders to live? Where is also the biblical support for supporting this kind of bureacracy wherein Leaders are taking out this much debt for a house that falls in value? I almost think the SDA Church is so wicked - that as a structure it exists to fuel worldliness and to support salaries, and for making money off of mortgages and other money making schemes.
Is this kind of indebtedness of Vice presidents and other so-called "leaders" evidence that these people are 'wicked"? The bible seems to say so i. e. Deuteronomy 28
Additionally, where in the bible does it say that the SDA Church is the denomination that represents the ONly remnant or any part of the remnant? Looks like the SDA Church is encouraging its Vice Presidents and other "leaders" to be "willing" "slaves" as defined in the bible as determined by their indebtedness.
The problem with Adventism - is that some of its adherants like this so-called Michigan conference self ascribed leaders - do not interact with others from a standpoint of good will, but ill will - and they seek to justify immoral behaviors with the bible.
They are motivated by envy and are divisive.
I've never met so much malice, insincerity and division until I came into the Adventist Church. The adventist Church is characterized by malice and division because it is comprised of many individuals who are envious of others and driven by a religion of worldliness -
they talk and right books about how their "souls" can't be "bought" but yet they buy houses that they can't afford as is evidenced by the mortgages they take out and their willingness to become so indebted -and which continue to drop in value. Their main aim is to keep up with the Jones. They demand that you should want to help them and others like them with "charity" - and this is what their ministry is focused on - yet at the same time, they are not shy about their ill will towards you or your community - and they evince little to no concern about the immediate community and country in which they reside and the poor and downtrodden in their adopted community and country other than talking "down" to these communities from a theological standpoint of "false doctrine".
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Disbelieving the 6-day creation in favor of what other belief?
Traditional evolution.
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This Michigan "campus" leader would have you believe that victims of 411 Nigerian Scam artists tried to "bribe" the scam artists -
When I think of this "leader" - I'm reminded of the Adventist Pastors jailed for fomenting false doctrine and ethnic genocide. With "conservatives" such as these -they are not bound by any societal or biblical norms of decency - they try and justify "rape", racism, stealing, fornication, dishonesty -
and they reach judgement without accountability.
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The bible counsels one not to even "eat" with people who are sexually immoral, slanders, swindlers, etc. But Bill KNott's essay seems to say otherwise as does the Adventist Church which is lax on discipline and verifying allegations of wrongdoing.
I've seen the repercussions of "failing" to expel the wicked - immoral one - and of even "eating" with sexually immoral, or slanderous, or etc. people.
If you associate with these people - they are wicked - they will lie about you. This yeast also spoils the bunch - because of the tolerance for this evil and the self selective, self serving lack of discipline within the Adventist Church - much of Adventist Fellowship has been spoiled by this wicked yeast - and is unholy - simply by fellowshipping with certain Adventists you risk being slandered, cheated, lied about, approached in an unchristian manner - and you risk the GC defending this. I've not encountered this in other christian denominations. The Adventist Church is characterized by a malice and wicked backbiting and malicious witnesses and a dishonesty that many of the "conservatives" are only too glad to fan.
This particular "michigan" conference campus "leader" - while he claims to have much support in the SDA Church especially from the conservatives, many I know in my neighborhood and other Churches don't look up to him but view him as a buffoon if they even know of him at all and rightfully view themselves on a higher level than him and an object of his scorn because of such. It's pretty sad when you have to take out 100% financing for a house worth around $300,000 which falls in value and is only worth around $232,000 :-X
The man is jealous and envy and jealousy are what drives his "conservative" campus "leadership in Michigan. This Michigan "campus" "leader" applauds "fraud", untruth and insincerity in violation of 1 Cor 5:8. I was so surprised to see that in this section of Corinthians - when the Bible talks about expelling the immoral brother - that is a person who calls themselves saved and christian, yet they fornicate, or swindle or slanders others - this same section talks about the need to expel this person from fellowship and to fellowship in sincerity and truth.
Interesting the focus on sincerity and truth. Yet, this "michigan" "campus" leader applauds insincerity and truth with his endorsements and his slanderous innuendo.
This leader comes accross as low , low class and willing to seek to all depths of being low in terms of the manner of immorality that he would support - he claims to love Ellen G. White - but he even supports tenets that violate what she says on certain subjects.
Fraud is wrong - but not so if you listen to his "michigan" campus leader.
What I can say with this particular "Michigan" "campus" - so-called leader - while he tries to cloak his attacks as being driven by morality and being against "apostasy", his rhetoric is really driven by tribalism and by his envy of people from particular cultures and ethnicities being wealthier than him - this is his religion as well as the religion of some he's chosen to defend - and many who've now latched on to his writings. He's a false prophet - and has a philosophy of demons.
The problem is not so much the behavior - that is objectionable to him- to him it's the ethnicity and the wealth that is objectionable- this is what draws his ire and that of many of the persons in this particular conference who support him - case in point - many of the persons from this same conference, support a "catholic" - who bragged about fornicating with a married person, and never objected to her objectionable lifestyle.
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Seems to be a simple situation to evaluate since I do not know who you are talking about for sure but..the value here is -either you please God or please man that I see folding up the SDA "organization". It seems so big that I doubt it will turn the other way and now eventually it comes down to an individual choices with the loud cry led by Holy Spirit, one to one basis and God and this group called the Remnant still attending the "organized" end church. I recall reading very few Adventists in the end will comply. and the organized church along with the same views of Zionists will suffer the same surprise. These are the "unjust". They will be in horror.
The "Just" will be raised before the 3 Angels message was given. Vol. 5 Testimonies. (Miller as example). The Holy ( that follow the lamb) will be those who led some of the redeemed with no "guile" or false doctrine in their mouth and the "wicked" who were totally wrapped in "self" and no other desire but self that equal being in line of either Righteous and Unrighteous. All sealed from different "generations" different tribulations from all era s. Like Mrs. Hastings who helped give sounding to 3 angels message, (with the 144,000, symbolic and literal as first are the noted messangers that "were sent" that will multiply in the earth) some will be raised in the "special" Resurrection in a living state just before the "Coming of Jesus" and soon all will know who they are. Yes, and many churches will be hindered in getting new members because of their backslidding views that will only cost souls from Heaven. check it out, its there.
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Really. That's interesting.
Now, is the issue that they simply present/teach it in the schools(because I know the mere mention of evolution besides to call it wrong is enough to send some into a tizzy), or that is it taught by some as the preferred belief?
Disbelieving the 6-day creation in favor of what other belief?
Traditional evolution.
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Di, one of the professors at La Sierra accused of teaching evolution was quoted by a secular periodical as calling creation science a vulgar term, and of calling Adventist creationists a lunatic fringe.
The issue was teaching evolution as fact and truth, not as a theory preferred by skeptics.
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Jise,
I for one do not care for the mere vague accusations you are making. If you have solid information against a particular individual and feel it best to make it public, then please do more than make mere accusations that no one can properly and adequately evaluate.
I could venture a guess as to the "leader" you refer to, but in doing so I cannot help but recall the marked humility that individual manifested when some minor mistakes they had made were pointed out.
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Aaaahhhh. Yes well, then he is really supposed to teach at UCLA, USC....anywhere but a christian educational institution. For me, it is more a condition of his employment. He knew at La Sierra, he would be expected to teach according to church doctrine. Was he fired?
Di, one of the professors at La Sierra accused of teaching evolution was quoted by a secular periodical as calling creation science a vulgar term, and of calling Adventist creationists a lunatic fringe.
The issue was teaching evolution as fact and truth, not as a theory preferred by skeptics.
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Di,
This has been going on for years, and nothing has been done about it. That's why the big uproar.
When the LSU president first responded to the concern, he twisted the concern into being an accusation that LSU was teaching atheistic evolution, and then denied that they were teaching atheistic evolution, something that they had never been accused of doing. Some of the material the LSU president has put out there suggests that he has trouble with the idea that God created the world in 6 actual days, and throughout this controversy, I have yet to see him come out and say that that is what he believes.
Perhaps you've heard the name Billie Burdick before. On SDAnet she has repeatedly undermined the idea that God created the world in 6 actual days about 6 thousand years ago. Some of felt that she was promoting theistic evolution, though she, I think, prefers the term progressive creation. She likes to philosophize, but avoids discussing actual scientific data.
I was quite surprised to learn that she was actually a board member of SDAnet. So I asked the moderators why she was a board member when she was at war with Adventist beliefs, creation being just one of several of her issues. Steve Timm responded in part saying that he wasn't going to discuss the orthodoxy or lack thereof of any of the board members. I then asked to speak directly with the board. He then replied that I already had, since each board member had already gotten my emails.
During that dialog Steve shared with me the rules of SDAnet, one of which is that intend to foster an atmosphere that is supportive of Adventist beliefs and church leaders. I then raised the issue of why Bille was allowed to post derogatory comments about the General Conference president.
The end result was that I was banned permanently, I am still waiting after months for Steve to get back to me about when I can bring the super serious issue directly to the board about one of their board members undermining Seventh-day Adventist beliefs, and Bille still posts away.
So this evolution problem is bigger than just LSU.
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So is SDAnet an official church discussion website? If so, i can understand your concern. But then, not really. I mea,if it is a site such as this, how long does it last with everyone agreeing about everything. I have known discussion sites to die a quick death that way
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SDAnet isn't official. But it's on Andrews' servers, I believe.
When they say they are going to have a supportive and affirming atmosphere regarding Adventist beliefs and leaders, and then one of their own board members promotes what Ellen White called a most dangerous form of infidelity (the idea that the days of creation weren't days), I see a problem.
Sure, you have all kinds who come to forums and sound off. But I would think that the leadership shouldn't be on some sort of ego trip where they think they are smarter than God in that they routinely declare what He inspired His prophets to write to be wrong. Otherwise, they really ought to remove "SDA" out of their name.
One incident was where Bille was criticizing the idea Ted Wilson has promoted, that by spreading the message Christ's coming can be hastened. She went so far as to call Ellen White's statement to that effect "unfortunate."
She likes the idea that Ellen White grew. So I tried to see when Ellen White wrote those kind of statements, and discovered that those statements represented Ellen White's mature, late view of the subject.
So, since Bille rejects some of Ellen White's early statements on the basis that Ellen White later grew, one should expect her to accept as truth late statements that spreading the message will hasten Christ's return. But such was not the case. As it turned out, whether Ellen White grew or not wasn't the issue.
Differences of opinion are one thing. Favoritism is quite another, and favoritism is what I saw.
The administration demanded that I take the position that Ellen White's identification of a most dangerous form of infidelity is merely my opinion, not a divinely inspired truth. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to abandon Seventh-day Adventist beliefs simply to satisfy SDAnet administration. I'm not going to apostatize because they want me to.
It isn't my opinion that the idea that the days of creation weren't days is a most dangerous form of infidelity. I'm not the one who said it. Ellen White said it, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jesus testified that through her. It's not my opinion, and I'm not going to post as if it is.
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I have gone to the site and check it out. I met Billie about 6 year ago online. Bob is correct. I never went back.
The Adventist are prone to cover up. They make a plan, prepositioned a chosen person to take over is in the right place at the right time. Even years earlier, just waiting and talking to individuals speaking innuendo against the one they need to have removed is not voted in. All the chosen ones and the chosen one just waits for the preplanned to open the doors for the chosen one to take charge.
I sat and watched this happen to some one I dearly love. The #1 president felt he was a to be voted in forever. He was mentoring the #1 pastor and got him a call to become president of another conference. I was on the nominating committee and got to listen to individuals come in telling about things that that this #1 president was doing I knew many of the things already. The vote was taken. #1 president came in and spoke about those disgruntled members were lying. He left and was not voted back in. I did not nominate my friend. I did vote for him though. So we had a #2 president, a #1 past president! Praise God. I knew he was a Godly and a great man of prayer. A little time passes and #1 ex president started the ball rolling with the #1 pastor now. The # 1 past president made a plan #2 president out, the clock started.
#2 p got a call from the pastor/president who was asking to come back and pastor. #2 President gave him a church. Red flags were waving all over I sent my warning. P 2 believed God was in charge and he was waiting for the process. He is a Godly man. however he was voted out after years of devoted service. Years ago I heard that the person lt came back to being a church pastor in a church not even 1/4 the size he previously pastored. While he was pastoring in maybe the largest church in the conference. He got a call to be president and took it.
The then president probably got him the call to the conference was. Then he steps down as president and asks to come pastor in the conference area. He is very well liked. Years came and went, then the evil hit him in the face. When the previous president came back I called and gave him a heads up. He reminded me that this is a process. He had faith that the Lord was in charge of him, and whatever God allowed he would accept it. And the Godly man that he was/is was not voted back in. He is excited about what is to come. He, his wife, and I studied the 21 Laws of Leadership as presented by John C Maxwell. See all of his material he offers at Amazon. We studied it all. His web is www.injoy.com.
What Jise is saying is one aspect of the Adventist Church culture. It is just one aspect of the problems. May Jesus get out the message that God loves you and me! He died to give us all the opportunity to live with Him eternally! Therefore I wait for the process to be finished. He has so many more to gather into his arms!
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Back to Jise and his vague accusations.
I would like to know, Jise, how you feel about Samuel Koranteng-Pipim's stance on creation and against evolution: Do you believe that Pipim has taken the right stance? Do you support Pipim's exposing who among us have been promoting evolution?
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WOW! Here is another threat. Say-mo-say-mo. I believe what God says and don't worry about the small stuff. What is wrong with people just accepting what the Bible says? Having a relationship with the trinity is as good as it gets. Jesus is my all and all. All this stuff just doesn't matter. If he had wanted us to know how he did what he did and all He would have told us! What would we need to study through eternity?
Give me the Bible, Jesus, and Dr Derek Morris' Sabbath School lessons 3 hours a day, Then I am more blessed and happier than I have ever been! Go to www.forestlakechurch.com. Download Sabbath School lessons as far back as 2008, his Southern College class, The Life and teachings of Christ. They also have his sermons listed. You can also get bible study Sabbath School lessons from HopeTV I asked God to forgive me for listening to 3ABN for as long as I did.
HopeTV is Adventist all the way. They have to deal with all the wheelers and dealers. Derek Morris sits right in the pit of vipers. I am praying that as he has moved to the GC that he will not get bitten by others at the GC. It is a process that must happen so Jesus can come! Folk, Jesus wants to come! Wake up and find the only personal Savior, Jesus!
Many thanks to Dr. Derek Morris for filling my heart with Jesus! My cup overfloweth!
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The GC Vice President who's house dropped in value around $100,000 and who took out approximately 100% financing according to public records, hails from originally from an adventist conference wherein the country likes to think of itself as a "christian" nation. But according to Deuteronomy - is this really true? Like the US, the country is not a loaner, but has been a borrower, borrowing from the US and monetary institutions. According to Deuteronomy, this is not the mark of a blessed, Godly nation.
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WOW! Here is another threat. Say-mo-say-mo. I believe what God says and don't worry about the small stuff. What is wrong with people just accepting what the Bible says? Having a relationship with the trinity is as good as it gets. Jesus is my all and all. All this stuff just doesn't matter. If he had wanted us to know how he did what he did and all He would have told us! What would we need to study through eternity?
Give me the Bible, Jesus, and Dr Derek Morris' Sabbath School lessons 3 hours a day, Then I am more blessed and happier than I have ever been! Go to www.forestlakechurch.com. Download Sabbath School lessons as far back as 2008, his Southern College class, The Life and teachings of Christ. They also have his sermons listed. You can also get bible study Sabbath School lessons from HopeTV I asked God to forgive me for listening to 3ABN for as long as I did.
HopeTV is Adventist all the way. They have to deal with all the wheelers and dealers. Derek Morris sits right in the pit of vipers. I am praying that as he has moved to the GC that he will not get bitten by others at the GC. It is a process that must happen so Jesus can come! Folk, Jesus wants to come! Wake up and find the only personal Savior, Jesus!
Many thanks to Dr. Derek Morris for filling my heart with Jesus! My cup overfloweth!
:amen:
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We need to stay close to Jesus!
WOW! Here is another threat. Say-mo-say-mo. I believe what God says and don't worry about the small stuff. What is wrong with people just accepting what the Bible says? Having a relationship with the trinity is as good as it gets. Jesus is my all and all. All this stuff just doesn't matter. If he had wanted us to know how he did what he did and all He would have told us! What would we need to study through eternity?
Give me the Bible, Jesus, and Dr Derek Morris' Sabbath School lessons 3 hours a day, Then I am more blessed and happier than I have ever been! Go to www.forestlakechurch.com. Download Sabbath School lessons as far back as 2008, his Southern College class, The Life and teachings of Christ. They also have his sermons listed. You can also get bible study Sabbath School lessons from HopeTV I asked God to forgive me for listening to 3ABN for as long as I did.
HopeTV is Adventist all the way. They have to deal with all the wheelers and dealers. Derek Morris sits right in the pit of vipers. I am praying that as he has moved to the GC that he will not get bitten by others at the GC. It is a process that must happen so Jesus can come! Folk, Jesus wants to come! Wake up and find the only personal Savior, Jesus!
Many thanks to Dr. Derek Morris for filling my heart with Jesus! My cup overfloweth!
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The GC Vice President who's house dropped in value around $100,000 and who took out approximately 100% financing according to public records, hails from originally from an adventist conference wherein the country likes to think of itself as a "christian" nation. But according to Deuteronomy - is this really true? Like the US, the country is not a loaner, but has been a borrower, borrowing from the US and monetary institutions. According to Deuteronomy, this is not the mark of a blessed, Godly nation.
I fail to see anything you've said regarding the alleged VP that is something to condemn. There are a lot of people right now who have houses that have dropped in value. And in some places where the market was ridiculously high, some homes have dropped quite a bit.
Were you able to find an adequate house adequately close to Silver Springs, MD, that you felt that VP should have bought instead?
Or, did you think that that VP should have already had more in savings in the bank so he could have used less financing? If so, did you inquire as to why he had so little in savings? Had he given too much to the Lord's cause, and this was the problem?
I am not a fan for huge homes and large mortgages. But before considering condemning another, I would want to ask such questions as these.
Jise, I would like your comments on the following:
I would like to know, Jise, how you feel about Samuel Koranteng-Pipim's stance on creation and against evolution: Do you believe that Pipim has taken the right stance? Do you support Pipim's exposing who among us have been promoting evolution?
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Not only has the adventist Church - issued false and unbiblical teachings on the subject of dancing in worship, and it being the only remnant church, they've also issued false doctrine on Ellen White. Ellen White is not the spirit of Prophecy that the Bible is referring to- the bible does not mention Ellen White.
I knew that there was something wrong with the Church when I met Adventists who would have you think that "concealed" fornication is biblical, defrauding is biblical, and slandering others is Biblical and tolerating fornicators, dishonest slanderers and revilers within their ranks is biblical. There is nothing biblical about the non-congregational structure of this Church and about the peculiar fellowship of this Church which has been made impure with a laxity on proper church discipline.
Additionally, there is one writer in Adventist World - I wonder if he is encouraging Christians to have a tolerance for existing within the Church with some that are reknown for their tolerance of sexual debauchery, etc. in their lands - this is celebrated as "diversity", whilst these same authors seem to have an aversion to principles of equity and humanity.
I have a bible with biblical commentary - and the Bible specifically speaks against the Israelites mixing with certain "nations" that are reknown for their sexual immorality and their debauchery - but the Adventist Church seems to celebrate this kind of mixing and even use these peoples as the standard for christianity and Godliness. How can a nation be a Christian nation, if it is indebted to the World bank, if it is Deeply in debt to foreignors - this can't be so according to Deuteronomy, even if said nation calls themselves a "christian" nation - it most certainly is not a Godly or blessed nation. How can a nation for which sexual immorality is a way of life that is accepted be a Godly nation? I'm not only talking about nations indebted to the World Bank, but this also includes the US to which many look up to - especially the "bad" values of the USA in terms of sexual immorality, etc. In the May issue of Adventist WOrld, the notion of Godliness and Church being local was denigrated and Criticized - but this local nature of Church as it concerned Israel was celebrated in the Bible and favored over Israel mixing with foreign lands that were known for their tolerance of sexual sin and other type of immorality. The Adventist World seems to be celebrating this kind of mixing and the Adventist Church is becoming reknown as the place where you come where you want to find an acceptance of all matter of moral compromise, sexual immorality, exploitation, and celebration and tolerance for this. People are confident in the Adventist Church because of the American affiliation of the Church, the wealth of the Church and this Church's affiliation with the immoral conservative political paradigm here. What's precious about other Churhches is the local nature of these churches and that they are not sullied by this mixing with peoples who have quite a tolerance for slander, sexual immorality, etc.
Ellen White's word is not the Spirit of Prophecy- the Adventist CHurch is encouraging everyone to accept everything that Ellen White wrote as Gospel, even her writings where she advocated for unbiblical principles and where in she even advocated for racism. Additionally, the word "Adventist" is no where mentioned in the bible - it is not a biblical word - so I also think the current push to be "proud of being an Adventist" and not to be afraid of mentioning the word "adventist" is also unbiblical for its focus on denominationalism and the word "adventist". Of course some who support this approach, wish to celebrate what makes Adventists allegedly distinct from all other denominations, but these same people choose to ignore that the "adventists" are seminally wrong on doctrine concerning the question of who is the remnant and the spirit of prophecy, and even the biblical nature of the name "adventist."
The Adventist Church is basically equated to Adventist Pastors fomenting genocide in Rwanda and the Congo - this is what this Church has come to represent and this seems to be the cultivated ethos of this Church. Why even some of these Adventist Pastors involved in the Rwandan Genocide did not have a problem with violation of innocent women and rape of these women - and it is this nature of the Adventist Church that makes this Church a lesser Church in many respects than the Churches I've known growing up.
Even some of the Adventist "conservatives" would not be willing to admit that many of the nations who are indebted to the world bank are not "Godly" nations, and this is stated so in Deuteronomy. Some Adventists are "conservative" by choice because they agree with Conservative politics and in fact, because they support sexual immorality with regards to certain ethnic groups of women - and they support a stance that biblical norms and societal norms of decency don't apply to them and certain ethnic groups. Their obsession with the liberal-conservative paradigm shows how wordly they are- in fact, many Adventist conservatives are quite theologically liberal in the bad not good sense. They've distorted biblical doctrine to endorse all manner of the transgressing of societal norms of decency and biblical norms of decency.
I also think that there is an ungodly divisiveness within the Adventist Church that is targetted to other matters is certainly not Godly - and is quite prevalent in the Adventist Church but not in many local churches. I've found too many people who are Adventists who like to spread lies and innuendos and falsehoods about others and do so under the cloak of the fact that the persons they are defending have perpetrated unbiblical behaviors where there is no accountability.
I'm shocked that Adventists can pontificate and even smear persons in situations where there is unashamedly no accountability but accusations made without verification and with reliance on malicious witnesses , many of whom hail from lands where sexual immorality and exploitation of women are applauded and taken lightly. The bible does not celebrate fellowshippiing with lands of peoples for which sexual immorality is taken lightly but the Adventist Church seems to celebrate this.
The Adventist church celebrates this because some forms of American conservatism take sexual immorality and exploitation of women lightly. This draws others who share these moral values.
Another thing about why I knew there is something wrong with Adventist Conservatives - is that they have a problem with feminism, but don't list sexism or patriarchy as part of the problem - which is dishonest. I certainly thnk that a dose of feminism is needed to counteract the lies of Adventists who support sexual immorality, and fornication and exploitation of women.
Feminism is not even defined by these Adventist Conservatives - all feminists do not have a set of shared beliefs - and some feminists do good work, such as correcting the distortions that certain societies have perpetuated about certain ethnic groups of women - may be this explains why many Adventists are against feminism. What you will find is that the Adventists who are against "feminism" are the same ones who support sexual immorality, and dishonest and sexist and tribalist stereotyping of certain ethnic groups of women. These Adventist "conservative" opponents of feminism have a problem with the "leftist" doctrine- whcih says that simply because you are a woman of a certain ethnic group, does not mean that you per se do not have value, are a commodity, and deserve to be mistreated even in violation of biblical norms. If you provoke and probe, you will find that many Adventist Conservatives support sexual immorality, dishonesty, and exploitation of women.
I've just come to the conclusion that soem of the Adventist "leaders" who support sexual immorality, etc. are simply low class - especially in comparison to persons in many of the other church denominations that I know of.. It takes a low class person to defend a sexually immoral adventist and to violate notions of purity in this regard in their perpetuation of slander. This is unheard of of many "local" oriented churches. A church is a problem when it has more peoples that are akin to the peoples in the bible God forbid the Israelites to mix with. There is a problem when there are too few Israelites in the Church that the Israelites have so little in common with the people, and instead the Church is populated with peoples for which sexual immorality, and fornication, dishonesty, and exploitation and are accepted, celebrated and taken lightly. When I think of a Godly person or a Christian - I don't think of an Adventist Pastor who supports Sexual immorality or has been implicated in some Rwandan genocide.
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I'm thinking of Adventist self ascribed "leaders" who celebrate fraud and slander. A real christian man and woman does not reach or rush to judgement to support fornication, dishonesty and lies, and to reach judgement on the behalf of such a person, when this person was not even there when this person was doing these things.
The Adventist Church is not like many other Church denominations I know of - it is devoid of a certain level of class and morality.
Suddenly, fornication is ok if it is done by a certain gender and a certain ethnic group. "Stealing" is ok. That which was baited through lies and trickery is portrayed by wicked Adventists as honestly won and won by fair play and an accurate portrayal of a person operating from not from a lack of information but fully informed. Ellen G. White and other Adventist writers, the bible, and Christians of other denominations all have talked about the need for accountability - but when you come across some Adventist Conservatives - all manner of violation of societal and biblical norms of decency is permissible and defensible as look as it is done by certain ethnic groups against others - i.e. no wonder the Adventist Church is fameous for its participation in the Rwandan Genocide.
Another apt criticism of Adventism was from the United Church of Christ people although I don't agree with their trinity doctrine - they described to a t - how "medicine" and the traditional European medical establishment is made into a "god" - a medical field based on pagan roots and for which treatment is based often unnecessary surgeries and pharmaceuticals - Adventists would have you believe that good health is dependent upon their hospitals rather than within the control of someone through preventative health. Another criticism of Adventism is that it uses "idols" within it's worship, through inaccurate depiction of Jesus monolithically not as he actually phenotypically was. The commandments specifically forbid idol worship.
I think the other Church denominations I know of are qualitatively different from the Adventist Church because most of the leaders who filled these churches were financially responsible as evidenced by their lack of indebtedness.
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Jise,
Could you please stick to a few points at a time, and be more specific and less rambling.
For the third, I would like to ask you the following:
I would like to know, Jise, how you feel about Samuel Koranteng-Pipim's stance on creation and against evolution: Do you believe that Pipim has taken the right stance? Do you support Pipim's exposing who among us have been promoting evolution?
Lastly, you stated above:
Not only has the adventist Church - issued false and unbiblical teachings on the subject of dancing in worship, and it being the only remnant church, they've also issued false doctrine on Ellen White. Ellen White is not the spirit of Prophecy that the Bible is referring to- the bible does not mention Ellen White.
Could you please explain yourself:
- Does a true prophet have the Spirit of Prophecy, according to the Bible?
- Does the Bible predict that the gift of prophecy would be manifested in the last days?
- Does the Bible teach that the remnant would keep God's commandments and have the spirit of prophecy?
If not, please explain why not.
Lastly:
Ellen White's word is not the Spirit of Prophecy- the Adventist CHurch is encouraging everyone to accept everything that Ellen White wrote as Gospel, even her writings where she advocated for unbiblical principles and where in she even advocated for racism.
Could you please quote where Ellen White advocated for racism? And while you're at it, could you please quote where Scripture says it is all right to ignore divine messages that God sends to His people via the Holy Spirit?
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Bob,
your business to do as u see but don't think I would parley with a devil's "uneducated" (by the SPIRIT of truth) to the devil's advocate. This is clearly off the wall reasoning by Jise. Something that is inspired by hatred. Clearly there is more and more the devil is devouring in the camp. Yes, that is plain to see. we already know that few SDA will make the gate and this is sure reasoing why. If of course you believe SOP. Of which so far has been totally on line of last message warning. Now you see it plain and simple with what has gone down here. I have also seen corruption first hand (probably worse then Jise can imagine) but can't mingle it with the truth of message Biblical or EGW. Even sounds as if Jise is part of the SDA REformers off shoot. lol no one told anyone there would be 2 SDA branches. and they don't get it either.
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I agree, Tinka, there is more than meets to eye with this story. lots of anger, even rage. I am not s ure we will ever get a straight answer to questions, just disconnected bits and pieces.